Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

[spursncowboys]

PHOENIX -- Gov. Jan Brewer (http://www.whorunsgov.com/Profiles/Jan_Brewer) ignored criticism from President Barack Obama (http://www.whorunsgov.com/Profiles/Barack_Obama) on Friday and signed into law a bill supporters said would take handcuffs off police in dealing with illegal immigration in Arizona, the nation's busiest gateway for human and drug smuggling from Mexico.



Earlier Friday, Obama called the Arizona bill "misguided" and instructed the Justice Department to examine it to see if it's legal. He also said the federal government must enact immigration reform at the national level - or leave the door open to "irresponsibility by others."
"That includes, for example, the recent efforts in Arizona, which threaten to undermine basic notions of fairness that we cherish as Americans, as well as the trust between police and their communities that is so crucial to keeping us safe," Obama said.


The legislation, sent to the Republican governor by the GOP (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/politicsglossary/party-affiliated/Republican-Party/)-led Legislature, makes it a crime under state law to be in the country illegally. It also requires local police officers to question people about their immigration status if there is reason to suspect they are illegal immigrants; allows lawsuits against government agencies that hinder enforcement of immigration laws; and makes it illegal to hire illegal immigrants for day labor or knowingly transport them.



The law will take effect in late July or early August, and Brewer ordered the state's law enforcement licensing agency to develop a training course on how to implement it without violating civil rights.



Anti-immigrant anger has swelled in the past month, after rancher Rob Krentz was found dead on his land north of Douglas, near the Mexico border. Authorities believe he was fatally shot by an illegal immigrant possibly connected to a drug smuggling cartel.





Pearce said the legislation would remove "political handcuffs" from police and help drive illegal immigrants from the state.
"Illegal is illegal," said Pearce, a driving force on the issue in Arizona. "We'll have less crime. We'll have lower taxes. We'll have safer neighborhoods. We'll have shorter lines in the emergency rooms. We'll have smaller classrooms."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/23/AR2010042301250_pf.html

[ChumpDumper]

What does an illegal immigrant look like?

[Nbadan]

It also requires local police officers to question people about their immigration status if there is reason to suspect they are illegal immigrants

...blue eyes and blond hair obviously, duh!

[admiralsnackbar]

What does an illegal immigrant look like?

Meskin, stupid! :lol

[Bender]

so, States are tired of the Fed gov't doing Absolutely Nothing about the illegal immigration problem since forever, and they never will.

[Winehole23]

Jails and court dockets are still pretty full. Can they stand the extra volume?

Can small municipalities really bear the expense? Would you be willing to pay higher taxes for your city to start dealing with it?

Are police trained to deal with immigrants/immigration issues?

[Winehole23]

Given well-known demographic trends in the USA, isn't it politically tone-deaf for the GOP to hitch its wagon to the star of 21st century Know-Nothings?

[EmptyMan]

lol @ Obama not willing to do shit on immigration this year for political reasons

lol @ states getting fed up

lol @ Arizona taking the law into their own hands

lol @ the biggest march in this country in the past few years being a bunch of pissed off non-americans and non-american apologists

lol @ teabaggabaggers being racists for not giving a shit about non-americans

lol @ citizens of the world

[Stringer_Bell]

"Illegal is illegal," said Pearce, a driving force on the issue in Arizona. "We'll have less crime. We'll have lower taxes. We'll have safer neighborhoods. We'll have shorter lines in the emergency rooms. We'll have smaller classrooms."

Russel Pearce is a fucking idiot, BUT Arizona has a right to do what it feels is right. This law won't help as much as it will annoy people because it was actually passed. I can't envision a scenario where anyone other than Mexican-looking people are asked for "their papers."

Why not just stop the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and shore up our borders and port security? If we don't want illegals, we need to get serious about it instead of entertaining bullshit like this. By the time the bad guys kill someone or the immigrants over fill our hospital rooms it's too late.

[boutons_deux]

What would the AZ economy look like without years, decades of all that cheap, abused, underpaid, undeclared cash labor?

[ChumpDumper]

lol @ Obama not willing to do shit on immigration this year for political reasonsWhat did Republicans do about immigration when they were in full control of the government?

Be specific.

[boutons_deux]

Repugs had 6 years to "fix" immigration, and all they did was start bullshit wars and cut taxes on the super-wealthy.

Cheap immigrant labor, often underpaid and unpaid and undeclared, is boon for (Repug) corporations.

[spursncowboys]

Repugs had 6 years to "fix" immigration, and all they did was start bullshit wars and cut taxes on the super-wealthy. bush's fix is barry's fix. WTF? Are all the tax payers super-wealthy?

[ChumpDumper]

bush's fix is barry's fix.I believe they are working on a bill now. Which bill did Bush pass?


WTF? Are all the tax payers super-wealthy?Were your taxes lower or higher this year?

[Wild Cobra]

...blue eyes and blond hair obviously, duh!
Yes, there are several Ukranians where I live who might be illegals.

[LnGrrrR]

Yes, there are several Ukranians where I live who might be illegals.

Quick! Call the hounds! AUTHORITIES!!!

[boutons_deux]

"bush's fix is barry's fix. "

dubya fixed shit.

"all the tax payers super-wealthy?"

the super wealthy got the super tax cuts, the rest got pro forma window-dressing crumbs.

[mogrovejo]

Wasn't Obama one of the senators who killed Bush's effort to pass immigration reform? Yeah, I think it was.

It's a shame that Obama didn't allow those more capable than him to get something done and now can't do anything himself.

[boutons_deux]

Repugs are pig-squealing that the Dems are opportunistically rushing to put immigration reform ahead of climate reform, to give the Dems a leg up with Latinos in November.

But it was the nut-job AZ Repugs who forced immigration into the spotlight in the past few days, not the Dems.

[ChumpDumper]

Wasn't Obama one of the senators who killed Bush's effort to pass immigration reform? Yeah, I think it was.

It's a shame that Obama didn't allow those more capable than him to get something done and now can't do anything himself.What makes you say he can't do anything?

[Trainwreck2100]

a law making it illegal to be illegal? Is that a double negative?

[admiralsnackbar]

Wasn't Obama one of the senators who killed Bush's effort to pass immigration reform? Yeah, I think it was.

It's a shame that Obama didn't allow those more capable than him to get something done and now can't do anything himself.

No, he co-authored an amendment (http://www.nilc.org/immlawpolicy/CIR/cir016.htm) before voting for (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00130) the 2006 CIRA.

Thank you, come again.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/04/26/20100426arizona-capitol-vandalized.html


I personally have mixed feelings about this law, on one hand the word illegal means you're committing a crime punishable by law, on the other hand the thought of the government racially profiling in any way scares the shit out of me.

[nkdlunch]

motherfuckers. I love Arizona Ice Tea and now I'm gonna have to boycott that shit. Anybody know other non-arizona options?

[Trainwreck2100]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/04/26/20100426arizona-capitol-vandalized.html


I personally have mixed feelings about this law, on one hand the word illegal means you're committing a crime punishable by law, on the other hand the thought of the government racially profiling in any way scares the shit out of me.

that's okay cause you're white

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

that's okay cause you're white


In this particular situation racial stereotyping MIGHT be appropriate, but it's the slippery slope logic. You give the government a blank check to racially profile and arrest without a warrant because someone's race is probable cause, that could lead to all kinds of unimaginable shit if the wrong person/people get power.

[admiralsnackbar]

In this particular situation racial stereotyping MIGHT be appropriate, but it's the slippery slope logic. You give the government a blank check to racially profile and arrest without a warrant because someone's race is probable cause, that could lead to all kinds of unimaginable shit if the wrong person/people get power.

It'll lead to all kinds of unimaginable shit well before it reaches such sinister levels. Can you imagine the strain this is going to put on the court system? The police force? Detention facilities? The economy (by disrupting the work of citizens and illegals alike).

Something clearly needs to be done about immigration policy, but this is half-baked.

[boutons_deux]

"I read an article" that this is actually GOP election to harass LEGAL Hispanics to get out of the state. Legal Hispanics vote 2 Dem to 1 Repug.

[admiralsnackbar]

"I read an article" that this is actually GOP election to harass LEGAL Hispanics to get out of the state. Legal Hispanics vote 2 Dem to 1 Repug.

Were this so, we'd probably be seeing the same sort of legislative activity in Texas.

Then again, after the concerted effort to bring down ACORN the past few years, nothing would surprise me.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

It'll lead to all kinds of unimaginable shit well before it reaches such sinister levels. Can you imagine the strain this is going to put on the court system? The police force? Detention facilities? The economy (by disrupting the work of citizens and illegals alike).

Something clearly needs to be done about immigration policy, but this is half-baked.


The timing of this bill was retarded. Illegals are leaving Arizona and other Southwest states in record numbers right now because they can't find work. Republicans seem focused on immigration, Democrats seem focused on healthcare, neither fuckin party wants to address what is by far the biggest issue in this country.

[Stringer_Bell]

The timing of this bill was retarded. Illegals are leaving Arizona and other Southwest states in record numbers right now because they can't find work. Republicans seem focused on immigration, Democrats seem focused on healthcare, neither fuckin party wants to address what is by far the biggest issue in this country.

LOL, I guess you mean the economy? No one is going to address the 6 banks that make of 60%+ of GDP. Anyway...

Let me get this right, please correct me where I'm wrong...when the bill was passed, the AZ Gov. said the Federal Government refused to tackle the problem (which to me is code for "Obama"), without acknowledging that the Republicans helped stopped GW from touching Immigration either. Shortly after, Lindsey Graham and Mitch Mcconnell said that America and Congress were not ready to tackle Immigration. WHAT?!?!

Cops shouldn't have more shit put on their plate by the state turning them into immigration officers. What if the Hispanic community stops cooperating with local police on routine issues? I actually am of the mindset, however twisted it may be, that the police won't ask a SINGLE PERSON for identification...but this is a PR disaster for the state government and law enforcement trying to posture like a lone wolf when the Federal Govement (aka Obama) won't do anything about Immigration. It's so obviously political, they don't care about that rancher that got killed or the footsteps that oddly led back to Mexico.

Also...the Kid from Star Trek just did a good expose on his show about the people that helped bring the Immigration Bill to AZ, bunch of crazy racists I tell ya!

[JudynTX]

motherfuckers. I love Arizona Ice Tea and now I'm gonna have to boycott that shit. Anybody know other non-arizona options?

:lol That tea is trash anyway.

[DarrinS]

There's nothing wrong with enforcing illegal immigration laws, but this Arizona law goes too far. People should not be pulled over because they LOOK like they might be illegal aliens. This is a violation of peoples' rights and will hinder police from doing work they SHOULD be doing.

Just my opinion.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

There's nothing wrong with enforcing illegal immigration laws, but this Arizona law goes too far. People should not be pulled over because they LOOK like they might be illegal aliens. This is a violation of peoples' rights and will hinder police from doing work they SHOULD be doing.

Just my opinion.


Agree completely. This is a bill most level headed Republicans and Democrats agree on. I like the idea of finally doing something about illegals, but someone's race isn't probable cause for an arrest.

[Crookshanks]

Maybe you people should actually read the bill before making these asinine comments. This bill is not what you say it is and it specifically PROHIBITS racial profiling. It basically codifies the Federal law and takes great care to not violate civil rights.

If the Federal Government (Republicans and Democrats alike) would stop being so politically correct and actually enforce the immigration laws, the people of Arizona wouldn't have demanded this law be passed.

[jack sommerset]

Love it! Not quite Operation Wetback but we are on our way!

[silverblk mystix]

the day when both illegal immigrants AND companies/people that hire them----

are BOTH prosecuted---equally---

will be the day when some kind of progress ---might be made--but that

WILL NEVER HAPPEN...

so until then...keep responding to YOUR inner prejudice and go after the little guy---while allowing the big guy $$$$---to laugh while you do his work...

[rjv]

Love it! Not quite Operation Wetback but we are on our way!


too late for that jack. whether you like it or not, this country has already become irreversibly latino.

[The Reckoning]

but we're all AMERICAN.

[LnGrrrR]

Maybe you people should actually read the bill before making these asinine comments. This bill is not what you say it is and it specifically PROHIBITS racial profiling. It basically codifies the Federal law and takes great care to not violate civil rights.


Crooky, is the level of suspicion needed for questioning better defined in the bill? All I've read so far is things like this from the OP.



It also requires local police officers to question people about their immigration status if there is reason to suspect they are illegal immigrants;


That's very open-ended.

[Crookshanks]

Here is the main text of the bill - you can read it for yourself and determine if the comments made previously are valid.

History
8 U.S.C. § 1373(c) requires Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to respond to inquiries by federal, state, or local government agencies seeking to verify or ascertain the citizenship or immigration status of any individual within the jurisdiction of the agency for any purpose authorized by law, by providing the requested verification or status information.

Laws 2007, Ch. 279 enacted the Legal Arizona Workers Act (Act). The Act: expands aggravated taking the identity of another person or entity to include the intent to obtain employment; prohibits an employer from intentionally employing an unauthorized alien or knowingly employing an unauthorized alien; requires the Attorney General (AG) or county attorney to investigate complaints and classifies filing a false and frivolous complaint as a class 3 misdemeanor; provides for license suspension for the first violation; requires license revocation on a second violation during a probationary period; and after December 31, 2007, requires every employer to utilize E-Verify to verify employment eligibility. Laws 2008, Chapter 152 further amended the Act.

Provisions
Enforcement of Immigration Law

· Prohibits law enforcement officials and law enforcement agencies of this state or counties, municipalities and political subdivisions from restricting or limiting the enforcement of the federal immigration laws to less than the full extent permitted by federal law.

· Requires officials and agencies to reasonably attempt to determine the immigration status of a person involved in a lawful contact where reasonable suspicion exists regarding the immigration status of the person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation.

· Stipulates that if the person is arrested, the person’s immigration status must be determined before the person is released and must be verified with the federal government.

· Stipulates that a law enforcement official or agency cannot solely consider race, color or national origin when implementing these provisions, except as permitted by the U.S. or Arizona Constitution.

· Specifies that a person is presumed to be lawfully present if the person provides any of the following:

Ø A valid Arizona driver license.

Ø A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.

Ø A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.

Ø A valid federal, state or local government issued identification, if the issuing entity requires proof of legal presence before issuance.

· Requires that if a person is convicted of any state or local law, on discharge from imprisonment or on the assessment of any monetary obligation imposed, ICE or U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) must be immediately notified.

· Authorizes a law enforcement agency to securely transport an unlawfully present alien to a federal facility.

· Requires a law enforcement agency to obtain judicial authorization before securely transporting an unlawfully present alien to a point of transfer that is outside of Arizona.

· Prohibits, except as provided in federal law, officials and agencies of counties, cities, towns or other political subdivisions from being prevented or restricted from sending, receiving or maintaining information relating to the immigration status, of any individual or exchanging that information with another governmental entity for the following official purposes:

Ø Determination of eligibility for any public benefit, service or license.

Ø Verification of any claim of legal domicile if legal domicile is required by law or judicial order.

Ø If the person is an alien, determination of the person’s compliance with federal registration laws.

Ø Pursuant to federal laws regarding communication between government agencies and federal immigration agencies.

· Stipulates that these provisions does not implement, authorize or establish and cannot be construed to implement authorize or establish the REAL ID Act of 2005, including the use of Radio Frequency Identification (RFID).

· Allows a person who is a legal resident of this state to bring an action in superior court to challenge officials and agencies of the state, counties, cities, towns or other political subdivisions that adopt or implement a policy that limits or restricts the enforcement of federal immigration laws to less than the full extent permitted by federal law.

· Requires the court to order any that a violating entity pays a civil penalty of at least $1,000 and not to exceed $5,000 for each day that the policy has remained in effect after it has been found to be violating these provisions.

· States that the court will collect the penalty and transmit the collected monies to the state Treasurer for deposit in the Gang and Immigration Intelligence Team Enforcement Mission (GIITEM) Fund.

· Authorizes the court to award court costs and reasonable attorney fees to any person or any official or agency that prevails in a case brought under these provisions.

· Indemnifies officers against actions brought under these provisions, except if the officer has been adjudged to have acted in bad faith.

· Stipulates that these provisions are to be implemented consistent with federal immigration law protecting the civil right of all persons and respecting the privileges and immunities of US citizens.

[The Reckoning]

im doing a research paper in US/LA relations on Operation Wetback.

would referencing this bill be a good introduction?

or should i play it conservative by saying that historians and policymakers champion the Bracero program as a success to foreign relations but the OW is an often-negated racist backlash to it? BP was an imperial allocation of labor resources and OW was a the racist backlash to it - imperialism not cooperation?

[rjv]

im doing a research paper in US/LA relations on Operation Wetback.

would referencing this bill be a good introduction?

or should i play it conservative by saying that historians and policymakers champion the Bracero program as a success to foreign relations but the OW is an often-negated racist backlash to it?

operation wetback was backed by the CIA. i doubt we would ever get that out of hand again but the fact that it happened makes any concern over the current legislation valid.

[LnGrrrR]

· Requires officials and agencies to reasonably attempt to determine the immigration status of a person involved in a lawful contact where reasonable suspicion exists regarding the immigration status of the person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation.

I would like to see "reasonable suspicion" here defined. I mean, if a cop pulls over someone who speaks poor English and looks Mexican, is that reasonable suspicion? I would argue it isn't, but it might be interpreted as such. (I know it says later it can't solely consider race/color/national origin, hence I brought up the language issue.)


· Stipulates that if the person is arrested, the person’s immigration status must be determined before the person is released and must be verified with the federal government.

I not sure if that part of the bill would be considered constitutional. In one case, the SCOTUS has said that it's not mandatory to produce ID to police officers, but the situation was different.

I think this section is heavy-handed, but I'm ok with other people holding opposite views.

[Winehole23]

A more libertarian take, from a letter to the American Spectator (http://spectator.org/archives/2010/04/27/fixing-americas-immigration-bl):


What's the right approach to dismantling the black market? Liberalization. The immigration black market only exists is because the government has made the legal market as cumbersome as it can.

True immigration reform makes legal channels more appealing, not less. That means lightening the paperwork and the regulatory burden, and eliminating quotas. The more unattractive legality becomes, the more attractive illegality looks in comparison.



Black markets are anathema to a free society. Murder, theft, smuggling, and even slavery are part and parcel of immigrant black markets. They are also easily avoidable - just shrink the black market by making legal immigration easier.

[doobs]

Not a fan.

If a state wants to do something about illegal immigration -- which is a federal responsibility -- it could reduce the state-provided benefits and services made available to illegal immigrants, or prohibit them altogether consistent with the law. It's a harsh option and it still wouldn't eliminate the main economic incentives that bring many immigrants to this country . . . but it would at least make it harder for the do-nothings and criminals to live comfortably.

But to task local law enforcement with immigration is wrong-headed. It's an invitation to police-state creepiness.

[The Reckoning]

soooo nobodys going to help me with my research paper...


:depressed

[Winehole23]

But to task local law enforcement with immigration is wrong-headed. It's an invitation to police-state creepiness.Yep.

[doobs]

I think I'm going to go to Arizona and steal from some illegals. They definitely won't go to the police now.

[rjv]

I think I'm going to go to Arizona and steal from some illegals. They definitely won't go to the police now.

probably not but better make sure who you steal from first or they may find your head in sonora.

[Winehole23]

That's another side effect of tasking LE with immigration responsibilities. Not only will will illegal immigrants tend to avoid reporting crimes or cooperating with investigations, when personally wronged some people might be tempted to take justice into their own hands.

[Crookshanks]

The first thing a policeman does after pulling someone over is ask for their license, registration, and proof of insurance. Do you think you could get away with refusing? So how is this any different? Do you honestly think the police are just going to pull a car over for no real reason just because the driver is hispanic?

I've never been arrested, but don't they always check your ID when you are? So again, what's different about this law?

I really don't get all the uproar. Of course, maybe it's just the stupid people like the ones at MSNBC who had this on the bottom of the screen:

Arizona law makes it a crime to be an illegal immigrant

Well duh - doesn't the word "illegal" denote something criminal? This is just more bitching from the PC crowd, and those who think we should keep our borders open so anyone can come over.

[IronMexican]

A Latino truck driver outside Phoenix was taken into custody by law enforcement at a weigh station. He pulled in to have the truck looked at, was apparently approached by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents and asked for ID. He showed them his commercial driver’s license. They asked him for more ID. He told them his social security number. They cuffed him took him to the central office in Phoenix and called his wife to bring his social security card and birth certificate. The man is identifying himself to media only as “Abdon” and he is an American citizen born in the USA.

http://iowaindependent.com/32851/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate

[IronMexican]

Pretty fucking awful.

[Stringer_Bell]

I'm waiting for all the Hispanics in AZ to only speak Spanish in public, that'll show everyone who the real minority is!

The Hispanics will outfuck everyone and take over this bitch, don't think we won't try!

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Wow. Unfuckinreal. I really hope I'm not in the wrong place at the wrong time when the first racial riot breaks out in this state. Words cannot describe how amazed I am at how much this law blatantly violets constitutional rights.

[Oh, Gee!!]

The first thing a policeman does after pulling someone over is ask for their license, registration, and proof of insurance. Do you think you could get away with refusing? So how is this any different?

The policeman needs a valid reason to pull over a driver, and he then asks for those items because state law requires every driver to have those items in order to drive. If you refuse to show them, then you get cited and pay fines; in other words, you have committed new traffic offenses. With a traffic ticket, an officer bases his decision to pull over someone on a violation of the traffic laws that he observes (speeding is observable by pacing or radar; it's clear if someone doesn't use a blinker; rolling through a stop sign is an observable offense; etc). This AZ law says an officer can approach and question somebody on suspicion of being in that state illegally. What would an officer observe to arouse his suspicions.


I've never been arrested, but don't they always check your ID when you are? So again, what's different about this law?

This law reverses the order. They check your ID first, and then arrest you .

[The Reckoning]

I'm waiting for all the Hispanics in AZ to only speak Spanish in public, that'll show everyone who the real minority is!

The Hispanics will outfuck everyone and take over this bitch, don't think we won't try!


LOL since when have hispanics been organized enough to do so? (besides Cesar)

[Winehole23]

Arizona law makes it a crime to be an illegal immigrant

Well duh - doesn't the word "illegal" denote something criminal? This is just more bitching from the PC crowd, and those who think we should keep our borders open so anyone can come over.The resemblance is semantic. Immigration courts are administrative law courts, not criminal courts. US law has never treated illegal immigrants as criminals. That is brand new. You've been demagogued, Crookshanks.

[rjv]

The first thing a policeman does after pulling someone over is ask for their license, registration, and proof of insurance. Do you think you could get away with refusing? So how is this any different? Do you honestly think the police are just going to pull a car over for no real reason just because the driver is hispanic?

I've never been arrested, but don't they always check your ID when you are? So again, what's different about this law?



this does not exclusively apply to just routine traffic stops.

[Crookshanks]

This AZ law says an officer can approach and question somebody on suspicion of being in that state illegally

Did you read the actual law I posted? Nowhere does it say an officer can approach and question someone soley to check their immigration status. It says they must check while having "lawful contact". Again, I think some of you are getting your shorts in a wad over nothing.

Personally - I don't really care - I say send all the illegals back to where they came from. Illegal is illegal is illegal. You want to come to the United States - then use the proper channels. And I also think they should go after companies that hire illegals. They should receive huge fines, and jail time for subsequent offenses. If you dry up the source of jobs - the illegals will go home. That, and take away their benefits like free schooling for their kids.

What's ironic is that Mexico some of the toughest immigration laws in the world. Yet, they want us to look the other way while all their citizens come into our country illegally.

[InRareForm]

are the tales of kidnapping, drop houses, murders really getting out of hand? I want to see the factual numbers. I can understand drastic measures need to be put into effect if these things are true. On the other hand however, you can't just take away constitutional rights.

[rjv]

Did you read the actual law I posted? Nowhere does it say an officer can approach and question someone soley to check their immigration status. It says they must check while having "lawful contact". Again, I think some of you are getting your shorts in a wad over nothing.

Personally - I don't really care - I say send all the illegals back to where they came from. Illegal is illegal is illegal. You want to come to the United States - then use the proper channels. And I also think they should go after companies that hire illegals. They should receive huge fines, and jail time for subsequent offenses. If you dry up the source of jobs - the illegals will go home. That, and take away their benefits like free schooling for their kids.

What's ironic is that Mexico some of the toughest immigration laws in the world. Yet, they want us to look the other way while all their citizens come into our country illegally.

you act as if there has never been a case of an officer using his or her discretion to create a reason for "lawful contact". it is not very difficult for a "tip" to be phoned in on "suspicious activity" at a home or work site.

[George Gervin's Afro]

you act as if there has never been a case of an officer using his or her discretion to create a reason for "lawful contact". it is not very difficult for a "tip" to be phoned in on "suspicious activity" at a home or work site.

in crookskanks world the police never do anything to create a situation to check someone out.. he lives in a utopia

[clambake]

in crookskanks world the police never do anything to create a situation to check someone out.. he lives in a utopia

he is a she, and she's never been arrested cuz they don't have lane bryant sized cells. har har

[Crookshanks]

he is a she, and she's never been arrested cuz they don't have lane bryant sized cells. har har

You should do stand-up comedy clam - you're so hilarious. :rolleyes I haven't been arrested because I make it a habit to obey the law - except for speeding - I do like to drive faster than the posted speed limit. :lol

[clambake]

you know i was kidding.

but you shouldn't speed. i'd hate to be your airbag. har har

[redzero]

I would like to see "reasonable suspicion" here defined. I mean, if a cop pulls over someone who speaks poor English and looks Mexican, is that reasonable suspicion? I would argue it isn't, but it might be interpreted as such. (I know it says later it can't solely consider race/color/national origin, hence I brought up the language issue.)

But if a cop pulls somebody over, they're going to ask for identification anyway.

[jack sommerset]

Start outside the Home Depots. These illegals are not hiding, yet. We needed a law like this past so we can confront them and get them the hell out of here. Next, any meskin mowing a yard, stop them and ask for ID. Make it simple for awhile. The obvious hot spots.

[Crookshanks]

I heard this evening that the Arizona police had a hand in crafting this bill. They said all those who go through the Police Academy are taught about reasonable suspicion and probable cause and that this law doesn't change that. And he again reiterated that this law specifically prohibits racial profiling.

[jack sommerset]

I'm all for racial profiling. Best way to find illegals.

[LnGrrrR]

The first thing a policeman does after pulling someone over is ask for their license, registration, and proof of insurance. Do you think you could get away with refusing?

Yes, you can get away with refusing. Check this case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._Sixth_Judicial_District_Court_of_Nevada


Here the Nevada statute is narrower and precise.” The Nevada Supreme Court had held that the Nevada statute required only that the suspect divulge his name; presumably, he could do so without handing over any documents whatsoever. As long as the suspect tells the officer his name, he has satisfied the dictates of the Nevada stop-and-identify law.

So it's mandatory to identify yourself, but not hand over documents. (If you're driving, you may have to produce a driver's license to prove you're able to drive, but that's a separate issue from having to ID yourself just because.)


Do you honestly think the police are just going to pull a car over for no real reason just because the driver is hispanic?


I thought conservatives were supposed to be against more power in our government?

Are you seriously saying you don't see a possibility for this law to be abused?

[clambake]

I'm all for racial profiling. Best way to find illegals.

just keep wearing your white hood. you'll be cool.

[ElNono]

Did you read the actual law I posted? Nowhere does it say an officer can approach and question someone soley to check their immigration status. It says they must check while having "lawful contact". Again, I think some of you are getting your shorts in a wad over nothing.

Personally - I don't really care - I say send all the illegals back to where they came from. Illegal is illegal is illegal. You want to come to the United States - then use the proper channels. And I also think they should go after companies that hire illegals. They should receive huge fines, and jail time for subsequent offenses. If you dry up the source of jobs - the illegals will go home. That, and take away their benefits like free schooling for their kids.

What's ironic is that Mexico some of the toughest immigration laws in the world. Yet, they want us to look the other way while all their citizens come into our country illegally.

How do you know who is legal or not before the police attempts any "lawful contact"? How many times American citizens of Latino descent, or lawful residents need to be asked for papers or corroborate their nationality before you see this law is a mediocre attempt to solve a legitimate problem?

And the police are granted no deportation rights. All the police can do is detain and eventually hand it over to ICE, who then could deport if the alien doesn't appeal. In the meantime, we have more jails crowded, more money spent processing these people, and eventually all of them back somewhere else a couple of weeks after deportation because the border is still open.

[admiralsnackbar]

Why is anybody surprised that the usual suspects aren't worried about this legislation? They don't expect to suffer as a result of it, and they clearly don't have the imagination to empathize with those who might. Hmmmm... in what other nations has this mentality been present?

[21_Blessings]

3 hilariously awful bills in a week.

Good job Arizona. Way to give Florida and Texas a run for their money as the worst State in the fucking world.

[DarrinS]

We should be putting resouces toward strengthening our borders, not toward mitigating the effects of our current porous borders.

[DarrinS]

Arizona sheriff says he will not enforce this disgusting racist law.

http://www.kgun9.com/global/story.asp?s=12386648





TUCSON (KGUN9-TV) - Pima County's top lawman says he has no intention of enforcing Arizona's controversial crackdown on illegal immigration. Sheriff Clarence Dupnik calls SB 1070 "racist," "disgusting," and "unnecessary."

Speaking Tuesday morning with KGUN9's Steve Nunez, Dupnik made it clear that while he will not comply with the provisions of the new law, nor will he let illegal immigrants go free. "We're going to keep doing what we've been doing all along," Dupnik said. "We're going to stop and detain these people for the Border Patrol."

The sheriff acknowledged that this course of action could get him hauled into court. SB 1070 allows citizens to sue any law enforcement official who doesn't comply with the law. But Dupnik told Nunez that SB 1070 would force his deputies to adopt racial profiling as an enforcement tactic, which Dupnik says could also get him sued. "So we're kind of in a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation. It's just a stupid law."

Dupnik had harsh words for anyone who thinks SB 1070 will not lead to racial profiling. "If I tell my people to go out and look for A, B, and C, they're going to do it. They'll find some flimsy excuse like a tail light that's not working as a basis for a stop, which is a bunch of baloney."

But if Dupnik feels the law is stupid, its sponsor, State Senator Russell Pearce of Mesa, has the same label for Dupnik. In an e-mail exchange with KGUN9 News, Pearce characterized Dupnik's comments as "the stupidest statement... someone who takes an oath to enforce the law has ever made."

Pearce insisted that SB 1070 prohibits racial profiling. He repeated a phrase he's used in the past, writing, "Illegal is a not a race, it is a crime." And he added, "I guess the 9 Sheriffs who support this bill are racist."

SB 1070 criminalizes illegal immigration. But it will be up to county attorneys to prosecute complaints. That raises an obvious question: will Pima County Attorney Barbara LaWall also refuse to comply with the law? If she joins Dupnik's rebellion, then SB 1070 would be effectively DOA in Pima County.

In answer to that question Tuesday afternoon, LaWall told KGUN9 News that it's too early to tell. LaWall said her position will depend on standards yet to be developed to determine what constitutes "reasonable suspicion" in asking someone for their papers.

SB 1070 is in fact silent on the issue of racial profiling in determining the circumstances under how and when police can stop someone and demand proof of citizenship. When she signed the immigration measure into law on Friday, Governor Jan Brewer also signed an executive order to go with the law. That order requires such standards to be drawn up and for local law enforcement officers to receive training on them. The executive order does not specify what those standards should be, and does not specifically address the issue of racial profiling. But in signing the bill and issuing the order, Brewer stated that she is determined to prevent racial discrimination.

Late Tuesday afternoon, Paul Senseman, spokesman for Governor Jan Brewer, sent KGUN9 this statement in response to a query about Dupnik's stance: "Since the new Arizona law simply regulates immigration the same way that federal law and federal authorities currently regulate, it seems misguided to be angry or react negatively about this bill. Racial profiling is specifically written in the state law to be illegal. No additional documents are needed for anyone in Arizona, other than what federal law currently requires."

The fact that the governor's office was able to get back to KGUN9 News on Tuesday with a response is remarkable, in light of the volume of calls that are pouring in. An office assistant told KGUN9 earlier Tuesday afternoon that over the past five days, the office has received 160,000 phone calls, and is having a hard time keeping up.

KGUN9 has also received very heavy viewer traffic on this issue, although not at that kind of level. E-mails and web postings continue to heavily favor implementation of the law. By viewer request, KGUN9.com is running another "Question of the Day" web poll on this issue. Viewers can find that poll on the KGUN9.com home page, about halfway down on the right, and may cast votes through midnight on Tuesday.

[DarrinS]

Hmmm. This is interesting.


http://www.drudgereport.com/flashhs.htm

http://www.drudgereport.com/janet.jpg




SEND IN THE DRONES: PREDATORS TO FLY ABOVE TEX-MEX BORDER
Tue Apr 27 2010 19:39:41 ET

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano told a Senate hearing Tuesday that unmanned aerial drones will soon fly through Texas skies!

"Big Sis" declared that over the past 15 months, federal law enforcement initiatives have made the border more secure than in any other time in history, the SAN ANTONIO EXPRESS-NEWS reports in Wednesday editions.

The new "predator bees" have the capability to fly at altitudes used by commercial aircraft, and are designed to enhance intelligence capabilities of federal, state and local law enforcement.

But a recent analysis of the use of unmanned aerial vehicles found that they were twice as likely to crash as manned aircraft, according to the Congressional Research Service.

Developing...

[rjv]

What's ironic is that Mexico some of the toughest immigration laws in the world. Yet, they want us to look the other way while all their citizens come into our country illegally.

maybe if the US hadn't done such a good job of turning the mexican economy (along with all these crappy technocrat presidents that mexico has had) into such a mess (NAFTA was the last nail in the coffin) the impetus to migrate would not be where it is at now. (not to mention all the illegals that have poured into mexico from central america over the years).

[DarrinS]

maybe if the US hadn't done such a good job of turning the mexican economy (along with all these crappy technocrat presidents that mexico has had) into such a mess (NAFTA was the last nail in the coffin) the impetus to migrate would not be where it is at now. (not to mention all the illegals that have poured into mexico from central america over the years).

:huh

[rjv]

:huh

i'm afraid i'm not familiar with this operator of symbolic logic.

[DarrinS]

i'm afraid i'm not familiar with this operator of symbolic logic.


I don't understand how we suppposedly destroyed the economy of Mexico. So, at some point in history Mexico was an economic powerhouse? Feel free to enlighten me.

[rjv]

I don't understand how we suppposedly destroyed the economy of Mexico. So, at some point in history Mexico was an economic powerhouse? Feel free to enlighten me.

is this the teach me the history of another country routine because i'd rather just move on about working with generalizations ?

can we narrow it down to a specific time period? the porfiriato, post lazaro cardenas, the emergence of the technocrats, neoliberalism, the world bank and the international monetary fund, the emergence of maquiladoras, NAFTA, the end of the agrarian economy and the rise of the narcotic industry?

[DarrinS]

is this the teach me the history of another country routine because i'd rather just move on about working with generalizations ?

can we narrow it down to a specific time period? the porfiriato, post lazaro cardenas, the emergence of the technocrats, neoliberalism, the world bank and the international monetary fund, the emergence of maquiladoras, NAFTA, the end of the agrarian economy and the rise of the narcotic industry?


I'm no expert on the economy of Mexico. All I know is that a manufacturing company I worked for in the early 90's closed shop and moved to Mexico because of NAFTA. In this instance, we lost jobs and they gained jobs.

[rjv]

I'm no expert on the economy of Mexico. All I know is that a manufacturing company I worked for in the early 90's closed shop and moved to Mexico because of NAFTA. In this instance, we lost jobs and they gained jobs.

i have no doubt your company did this and jobs were lost. however, there are many bad assumptions made regarding the impact that NAFTA had for mexico's labor force. unemployment rates are actually higher in mexico since NAFTA and those jobs that have been migrated to mexico's US owned maquiladoras average a daily (not hourly) wage of 7.00.

peasant agriculture has been wiped out by the arrival of agri-business and the lifting of restrictions on the sale of peasant land. industrial employment has been devastated by the closure of hundreds of plants unable to compete with the transnationals under the new trade laws. and peasants and workers displaced have headed north in greater numbers. before NAFTA, illegals came mainly from four or five mexican states and a limited number of mostly rural municipalities. since NAFTA, migrants have originated in all mexican states, practically all municipalities, and cities as well as towns and villages.

[word]

motherfuckers. I love Arizona Ice Tea and now I'm gonna have to boycott that shit. Anybody know other non-arizona options?

Arizona Ice Tea is not made in Arizona.

If you want to boycott something from Arizona, boycott blue hairs.

[hope4dopes]

No undocumented Democrat is illegal! VIVA LA RAZA!!!!!!!

[panic giraffe]

No undocumented Democrat is illegal! VIVA LA RAZA!!!!!!!

you're an idiot.

[panic giraffe]

so if we play the suns the next round, do we not go to the games?

[redzero]

Damn, people jumped to conclusions without reading the bill. So many people think that it states that cops can pull people over only because they suspect that said people are illegal immigrants.

This bill is just the state form of a federal law. If people have problems with it, they should instead complain about the law in general.

[Stringer_Bell]

I don't understand how we suppposedly destroyed the economy of Mexico. So, at some point in history Mexico was an economic powerhouse? Feel free to enlighten me.

Sure, I know of one example. NAFTA flooded the Mexican market with cheap corn and corn products, forcing a shitload of Mexican farmers out of work and helping to kill off Mexico's ability to produce its own corn. Where do those farmers go for work? How does Mexico make its own corn if there's a shock to the American corn market? I'm not expert either, btw, but that does strike me as a shitty situation that could have implications on illegal Immigration.

[hope4dopes]

Damn, people jumped to conclusions without reading the bill. So many people think that it states that cops can pull people over only because they suspect that said people are illegal immigrants.

This bill is just the state form of a federal law. If people have problems with it, they should instead complain about the law in general.

The people that are complaining don't care what the bill says, what they're complaining about is about is American citizens doing anything that helps stop illegal aliens from flooding across the border, or anyone that shines the light on the complicity of the political and bussiness classes in the flow of illegals.

Also, they are afraid of the results this bill will bear.If Arizona shows how easy it is to stem the flow of illegals it may just catch on.

[panic giraffe]

Damn, people jumped to conclusions without reading the bill. So many people think that it states that cops can pull people over only because they suspect that said people are illegal immigrants.

This bill is just the state form of a federal law. If people have problems with it, they should instead complain about the law in general.

actually the bill states something like "during a legal exercise" or some shit like that. which the right keeps saying, "well they're already being pulled over, or doing something wrong" but how many gung-ho sheriff's will use that as an excuse to pull more people over?

also, it shouldn't be the job of local pd's and the like to check immigration status. that's what we have a border patrol for.

this law just leaves so many ways of interpretation open that it's dangerous.

[DarrinS]

The people that are complaining don't care what the bill says, what they're complaining about is about is American citizens doing anything that helps stop illegal aliens from flooding across the border, or anyone that shines the light on the complicity of the political and bussiness classes in the flow of illegals.

Also, they are afraid of the results this bill will bear.If Arizona shows how easy it is to stem the flow of illegals it may just catch on.


I'm a conservative and I don't like this law because it's impractical and it will cause a certain group of American citizens to be harrassed based on "reasonable suspicion", whatever the fuck that means.

[DarrinS]

Arizona Ice Tea is not made in Arizona.

If you want to boycott something from Arizona, boycott blue hairs.


This vile beverage is made in New York.

[hope4dopes]

Honestly Darrin do you think the state of Arizona or any other state, could ever write any bill that attempted to stop illegal aliens, and the federal goverment would approve of it? The Arizona bill is not the issue, the issue is anyone trying to do anything to stop the agenda.
splitting legal hairs is a canard.

[hope4dopes]

I'm a conservative and I don't like this law because it's impractical and it will cause a certain group of American citizens to be harrassed based on "reasonable suspicion", whatever the fuck that means. I sincerely hope the Obama regime hassels the shit out of Arizona, I hope Arizona fights back I hope the ACLU and the Justice Department bring down the iron heel, I hope Obama comes out with some more of his racist sophmoric slander against the people of Arizona.
In the end it will put J.D. Hayworth in office, and it will drive another million people into the swelling numbers of people who want this nut job out of power.

[MannyIsGod]

The first thing a policeman does after pulling someone over is ask for their license, registration, and proof of insurance. Do you think you could get away with refusing? So how is this any different? Do you honestly think the police are just going to pull a car over for no real reason just because the driver is hispanic?

No. I'm sure those lovely Alamo Heights cops that pulled me over saying "I FIT THE DESCRIPTION" weren't pulling me over because I was hispanic. No, never.

I wish you could go through a day in some brown shoes.



I've never been arrested, but don't they always check your ID when you are? So again, what's different about this law?

ID is not proof of citizenship. Birth Certificates and Passports are. Do you carry those everywhere?



I really don't get all the uproar. Of course, maybe it's just the stupid people like the ones at MSNBC who had this on the bottom of the screen:

Arizona law makes it a crime to be an illegal immigrant

Well duh - doesn't the word "illegal" denote something criminal? This is just more bitching from the PC crowd, and those who think we should keep our borders open so anyone can come over.

I never want to see a post from you bitching about the prices of any good or service after this post.

[rjv]

I sincerely hope the Obama regime hassels the shit out of Arizona, I hope Arizona fights back I hope the ACLU and the Justice Department bring down the iron heel, I hope Obama comes out with some more of his racist sophmoric slander against the people of Arizona.
In the end it will put J.D. Hayworth in office, and it will drive another million people into the swelling numbers of people who want this nut job out of power.

nut job?

now that's hyperbole.

[Winehole23]

You don't know micca. He hasn't even gotten warmed up..

[admiralsnackbar]

Sure, I know of one example. NAFTA flooded the Mexican market with cheap corn and corn products, forcing a shitload of Mexican farmers out of work and helping to kill off Mexico's ability to produce its own corn. Where do those farmers go for work? How does Mexico make its own corn if there's a shock to the American corn market? I'm not expert either, btw, but that does strike me as a shitty situation that could have implications on illegal Immigration.

Just backing you and rjv up, NAFTA significantly reduced or eliminated what had at the time been sky-high tariffs on foreign goods (food, cars, tech, media, etc) coming into MX. There were definitely short-term gains for low-skill MX workers when large amounts of manufacturing was shipped down there, but offsetting this gain was the fact that a lot of Mexican manufacturers didn't have the finances (dollar-to-peso trade value worked against them) or technology to compete and subsequently crashed. This is why illegal immigration began to steadily rise in the mid-90's.

When US companies realized they could manufacture things in China for a fraction of the cost of doing it in MX, that was the nail in the coffin for a huge swath of low-skill Mexican workers, and illegal immigration spiked.

The problem the US finds itself in is that the MX government has no incentive to keep their citizens in the country. They know they can offer cheap and ineffective public education to provincial (in a literal sense) Mexicans, and see huge returns when these same unskilled folks go to the US, get jobs, and start sending money to their families back home. For the MX government, it's the equivalent of free money.

So how do we stop illegal immigration? The drug war has already shown that anything can be smuggled into this country, our constitution will never allow for the sorts of draconian measures AZ is trying to take, and our economy can only be disrupted if we stringently enforce immigration laws at the level of employment because too many businesses have grown accustomed to saving money by hiring illegals.

The only solution I see -- which will doubtlessly be unpopular -- can only take place at the federal level, and that is to give major tax incentives to businesses who a) can prove they hire US citizens exclusively, and; b) who invest in MX manufacturing. This way we can reduce demand for workers on our end, and increase demand for workers in MX. Furthermore, as a Mexican, I think steady capitol investment in MX would have the same effect as the Porfiriato did, in that it would develop Mexican infrastructure and the rule of law in a way our do-nothing government couldn't do by itself.

Going further, I think the US might even benefit from subsidizing free US-administered schools that operate within MX in order to create a higher number of highly-skilled Mexican entrepreneurs who are sympathetic to trade with the US while being intelligent enough to capitalize on Mexico's rich natural resources. The more entrepreneurs we can create down there, the sooner the oligarchic political landscape of Mexico will change.

All to say: I don't think there's a quick fix.

Jesus, I'm long-winded. Sorry.

[boutons_deux]

"There were definitely short-term gains for low-skill MX workers when large amounts of manufacturing was shipped down there"

... and then the mfrs moved on to China, leaving the MXs without work, so they headed for USA.

Also, the US shipping cheap tax-payer subsidized corn to MX destroyed the meager livelihoods of subsistence MX farmers, who then headed north by the 1000s or Ms.

And then when the Wall St commodities(corn) speculators got in the game, the price of corn (tortillas) priced it way beyond many MX means.

When corps are pushing globalism, we know it has nothing to do with benefits for anybody except those corps.

[admiralsnackbar]

"There were definitely short-term gains for low-skill MX workers when large amounts of manufacturing was shipped down there"

... and then the mfrs moved on to China, leaving the MXs without work, so they headed for USA.

Also, the US shipping cheap tax-payer subsidized corn to MX destroyed the meager livelihoods of subsistence MX farmers, who then headed north by the 1000s or Ms.

And then when the Wall St commodities(corn) speculators got in the game, the price of corn (tortillas) priced it way beyond many MX means.

When corps are pushing globalism, we know it has nothing to do with benefits for anybody except those corps.

While I don't disagree that corporations are capable of pure evil, they are only as powerful as a government will allow them to become. I think MX, as it is today, is already run by corporations and is as evil as can be. If these same corporations (along with an influx of new ones and judicious investment by the US government), are able to create a dependable "mission critical" infrastructure in the country, other businesses will have an opportunity to capitalize on this and slowly begin to grow. If enough of these businesses are created, quality of life and education will begin to rise and -- ideally -- better Mexicans will run for office and better Mexicans will vote them in. At that point, if corporations are still behaving badly (and they will be), there will at least be a hope that they will be better-regulated.

Our experience in this country shows how clever and slippery corporations are, and how resistant to regulation they are -- this in a country with a fair amount of education and economic vitality. Now imagine how utterly powerless Mexicans are currently and tell me they'd be worse off with better education and infrastructure.

[Crookshanks]

[QUOTE]No. I'm sure those lovely Alamo Heights cops that pulled me over saying "I FIT THE DESCRIPTION" weren't pulling me over because I was hispanic. No, never.

Well maybe you did fit the description of a suspect - you have no idea what the police are dealing with at any given time.


I wish you could go through a day in some brown shoes.

I have several pairs of lovely brown shoes that I wear quite frequently! :lol


ID is not proof of citizenship. Birth Certificates and Passports are. Do you carry those everywhere?

No - but I'm white and a citizen. However, they don't say you have to be a citizen, you just have to prove you're here legally - which means a visa or green card - which I understand people should carry with them at all times. As a side note - if the law was being enforced, the only people with a drivers license should be citizens, or people here legally. Which means a drivers license would be sufficient ID.


I never want to see a post from you bitching about the prices of any good or service after this post.

I read an article a few months back that said actual labor costs weren't a significant percentage of the final price of a product. For example, they said a company could raise the wages of farm workers to a decent wage, and the cost of a head of lettuce would increase by less than 5 cents. That doesn't sound too bad to me.

[admiralsnackbar]

I read an article a few months back that said actual labor costs weren't a significant percentage of the final price of a product. For example, they said a company could raise the wages of farm workers to a decent wage, and the cost of a head of lettuce would increase by less than 5 cents. That doesn't sound too bad to me.

That's 5 cents that could go (or would no longer go) to executive management, and/or 5 cents that could be the difference between a grocery stocking Mexican lettuce or its US-grown equivalent.

[George Gervin's Afro]

[QUOTE=MannyIsGod;4292814]

Well maybe you did fit the description of a suspect - you have no idea what the police are dealing with at any given time.



I have several pairs of lovely brown shoes that I wear quite frequently! :lol



No - but I'm white and a citizen. However, they don't say you have to be a citizen, you just have to prove you're here legally - which means a visa or green card - which I understand people should carry with them at all times. As a side note - if the law was being enforced, the only people with a drivers license should be citizens, or people here legally. Which means a drivers license would be sufficient ID.



I read an article a few months back that said actual labor costs weren't a significant percentage of the final price of a product. For example, they said a company could raise the wages of farm workers to a decent wage, and the cost of a head of lettuce would increase by less than 5 cents. That doesn't sound too bad to me.

how many white people do you think will be asked for their immigration papers?

[panic giraffe]

wow. just wow. all of that went over your head eh?




Well maybe you did fit the description of a suspect - you have no idea what the police are dealing with at any given time.




as in by just being dark skinned? laws that are this open for interpretation leave room for error. it's sad that you're okay with the idea that native born citizens should be harassed just because some people can't stay competitive with undocumented immigrants.



I have several pairs of lovely brown shoes that I wear quite frequently! :lol


do you really think racism is a joke?



No - but I'm white and a citizen. However, they don't say you have to be a citizen, you just have to prove you're here legally - which means a visa or green card - which I understand people should carry with them at all times. As a side note - if the law was being enforced, the only people with a drivers license should be citizens, or people here legally. Which means a drivers license would be sufficient ID.


yes, but i'm brown and a citizen. unless your family landed at st.augustine then my family has been here longer than yours. however since i "look" like i could possibly be an undocumented immigrant, does that mean that i should walk around with my birth certificate, social security number, passport, AND drivers license at ALL times? even people here illegally can get a drivers license, let me give you an example. mikail from the ukraine, is here as a engineering student, gets a proper license while at UT, but over stays his VISA by a few months, his license however is still valid. so its not like littly juany border jumper is the only one who can get a fake. what about native born citizens who don't own an id? what if my id isn't on me when an officer walks up to me at the park?

this law is too open ended.

where are all the so-called anti-big govt repubs who want to decry this invasion of civil liberties?

[Crookshanks]

Still think it's much ado about nothing. Now, if there are a spate of DOCUMENTED abuses as a result of this law, then I'll rethink my opinion.

Side note: Gov Brewer has received a 16 point bump her approval rating. 70% of people in Arizona and 60% of people in other states approve of this bill - so it looks like most of you are in the minority.

[admiralsnackbar]

Side note: Gov Brewer has received a 16 point bump her approval rating. 70% of people in Arizona and 60% of people in other states approve of this bill - so it looks like most of you are in the minority.

So to speak.

[boutons_deux]

Arizona Sheriff Says He Won’t Enforce New ‘Racist’ Anti-Immigration Law

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/04/28/pima-arizona-sheriff/

Wait til the lawyers pile on the PD's for harassment of citizens and racial profiling, and tax payers get stuck with 100s of $K for defending the PDs.

Solution: fire a bunch more firefighters, teachers, 50 kids/class, close some schools, and pay the lawyers.

[panic giraffe]

so to speak.

lol

[Nbadan]

I'm gonna rob me some dirty mehicans in Arizona and their ain't shit they can do about it now...hell, sex slaves anyone?

[Nbadan]

..but, but, the Arizona police can't stop you solely to ask for your papers...it's in the law! Read the law! :rolleyes

Nevermind the numerous studies that show that the color of your skin has everything to do with how many times police 'innocently' pull you over, or harass you on the streets because you are in the 'wrong neighborhood'...see, white folks don't understand racism and racial harassment because they don't suffer through racism and harassement...

[Nbadan]

Another stunning aspect of the Arizona law that wing-nut radio pundits forget to mention is the clause, unheard of before, that takes resources away from law enforcement, schools, hospitals, etc...etc...etc...and puts it into enforcement of this law above all others...


A clause of the bill, signed last week by Governor Jan Brewer, allows Arizona citizens to file suit against any government entity that "adopts or implements a policy or practice that limits or restricts the enforcement of federal immigration laws to less than the full extent permitted by federal law."

In other words, Arizonans can sue government entities, state or local, if they believe those entities aren't fully enforcing the law -- including, of course, this new law itself. The government could be on the hook for penalties as high as $5000 per day.

That kind of explicit permission to sue the government for not enforcing the law is almost unheard of, according to Mark Miller, a professor at the University of Arizona Law School. "This kind of ... private right of action for an executive decision," -- that is, a law enforcement policy adopted by the government -- "is to my knowledge completely unknown, and to my mind, stunning," Miller told TPMmuckraker.

TMP (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/04/stunning_clause_in_az_immigration_law_lets_citizen .php?ref=fpb)

This is stunning, all resources in Arizona have to go to enforcing the new immigration law first or the govt. can get sued...

[ElNono]

Well maybe you did fit the description of a suspect - you have no idea what the police are dealing with at any given time.

When the 'crime' is being an illegal person, how do you know who to stop and who you don't stop?


No - but I'm white and a citizen. However, they don't say you have to be a citizen, you just have to prove you're here legally - which means a visa or green card - which I understand people should carry with them at all times.

Do you carry a visa or a green card? Oh wait, you're a citizen, you don't even have one of those. You have a birth certificate. Do you carry that one with you around?


As a side note - if the law was being enforced, the only people with a drivers license should be citizens, or people here legally. Which means a drivers license would be sufficient ID.

Wrong. You don't need to be a citizen or a lawful resident to obtain a driver license in some states, merely prove you reside on the state (NC being one of those IIRC). Furthermore, you can legally drive with an international driver permit, which is recognized by the United States as a valid permit.

[Nbadan]

Arizona wing-nut world versus real world...

knv6nDZX1mc

[Duff McCartney]

Arizona wing-nut world versus real world...

knv6nDZX1mc

I object to this video using the Beatles as their ending music. If I was Paul McCartney I'd be spinning in my grave right now!

[Yonivore]

So, I'm guessing illegal immigrants that beat an effigy pinata of the Arizona Governor will be held as patriotic while Tea Party Members protesting the socialist/ruinous policies of the Obama administration will continue to be called subversive.

Only in Obamerica.

[Duff McCartney]

So, I'm guessing illegal immigrants that beat an effigy pinata of the Arizona Governor will be held as patriotic while Tea Party Members protesting the socialist/ruinous policies of the Obama administration will continue to be called subversive.

Only in Obamerica.

According to Fox News, the Tea Party protestors are patriotic.

Question, have any illegal immigrants beat an effigy pinata of the Arizona governor?

[Yonivore]

According to Fox News, the Tea Party protestors are patriotic.

Question, have any illegal immigrants beat an effigy pinata of the Arizona governor?
'scuse me, illegal immigrant supporters; I have no idea if they are here legally.

Don’t Look To MSM For Honest Coverage Of Arizona (http://bigjournalism.com/mrichmond/2010/04/27/dont-look-to-msm-for-honest-coverage-of-arizona/)

We'll see if Obama finds this as unpatriotic as Tea Party dissent.

[Duff McCartney]

'scuse me, illegal immigrant supporters; I have no idea if they are here legally.

Don’t Look To MSM For Honest Coverage Of Arizona (http://bigjournalism.com/mrichmond/2010/04/27/dont-look-to-msm-for-honest-coverage-of-arizona/)

We'll see if Obama finds this as unpatriotic as Tea Party dissent.

I don't look to the mainstream media for anything. And there's nothing new about swastikas anyway. The Tea Party protesters use swastikas as well and call Obama Hitler as well.

Are you as outraged as the person who wrote the article is about the use of swastikas?

[Yonivore]

I don't look to the mainstream media for anything. And there's nothing new about swastikas anyway. The Tea Party protesters use swastikas as well and call Obama Hitler as well.

Are you as outraged as the person who wrote the article is about the use of swastikas?
The question is, is the left as outraged about this as they pretended to be about Tea Party Protesters?

[Duff McCartney]

The question is, is the left as outraged about this as they pretended to be about Tea Party Protesters?

That wasn't my question at all. My question is are you outraged that Tea Party Protestors are holding up swastikas and images of Obama/Hitler just like the guy who wrote the article you linked to is outraged that the anti-Arizona immigration law protestors are carrying swastikas?

[Yonivore]

What I am is as irrelevant as that you don't look to the mainstream media for anything.

The mainstream media and the administration worked hard to try and make the Tea Party protests into something they weren't.

I expect they'll do exactly the same thing here.

My favorite mainstream media disconnect, so far:

http://sayanythingblog.com/files/2010/04/2010-04-26-MSNBC-Brewer.jpg

"Law makes it a crime to be an illegal alien"

[Duff McCartney]

What I am is as irrelevant as that you don't look to the mainstream media for anything.

The mainstream media and the administration worked hard to try and make the Tea Party protests into something they weren't.

I expect they'll do exactly the same thing here.

My favorite mainstream media disconnect, so far:

http://sayanythingblog.com/files/2010/04/2010-04-26-MSNBC-Brewer.jpg

"Law makes it a crime to be an illegal alien"

Not any worse than "It's just a piece of tissue.."

[Duff McCartney]

What I am is as irrelevant as that you don't look to the mainstream media for anything.

Oh I think it's very relevant and the fact that you don't want to answer is even more telling.

So again I ask, are you outraged that Tea Party Protestors are holding up swastikas and images of Obama/Hitler just like the guy who wrote the article you linked to is outraged that the anti-Arizona immigration law protestors are carrying swastikas?

[Yonivore]

Oh I think it's very relevant and the fact that you don't want to answer is even more telling.
Why? I'm not outraged by either.

The question was, and remains, are those that were "outraged" by the few Tea Party idiot going to be as "outraged" by the immigrant idiots?

I'm betting not.

The media did all it could to avoid showing the Tea Party movement as it predominantly exists, a good cross-section of Americans fed up with government overreach by both parties.


So again I ask, are you outraged that Tea Party Protestors are holding up swastikas and images of Obama/Hitler just like the guy who wrote the article you linked to is outraged that the anti-Arizona immigration law protestors are carrying swastikas?
Nope. And, I'm not outraged by the immigrant idiots either. Like I said, I'm wondering if the President, other Democrats, and the media that spent weeks harping on the patriotism of ALL Tea Party protesters, over the acts (some imagined) of a few.

That's the question. What you or I think about it, isn't important.

[Duff McCartney]

The media did all it could to avoid showing the Tea Party movement as it predominantly exists, a good cross-section of Americans fed up with government overreach by both parties.

Actually Fox News did everything it could to sponsor the Tea Party, so your assertion that the media is avoiding it is moot.

So let me get this straight, on the one part you say that the Tea Party predominantly exists as a good cross section of America, all the while criticizing the media for portraying the Tea Party protestors in a wrong light.

Then in the same post you say the "immigrant idiots" and link to a website showing what is probably a small minority of the "immigrant idiots" who hold up Nazi signs and pinata effigies.

So you criticize the media for generalizing on the tea party protesters, yet generalize the immigrant protesters as "idiots" and link a website that shows extreme acts and also generalizes?

[LnGrrrR]

Except of course that the tea party idea is supported by numerous influential Republicans, and I don't know of any Dems beating up pinatas.

[redzero]

Wrong. You don't need to be a citizen or a lawful resident to obtain a driver license in some states, merely prove you reside on the state (NC being one of those IIRC). Furthermore, you can legally drive with an international driver permit, which is recognized by the United States as a valid permit.

I don't think the argument is over having a drivers license, but instead having one that shows that one is a United States citizen.

[Jacob1983]

LMAO@ the MSNBC liberal bitch. What is MSNBC going to have next as a headline? "Smoking is bad"? "24 hours in a day"? "Water when frozen is ice"?

If you are from another country and you are in America and don't have the proper documents and/or I.D. that say you're here legally then fuck yeah you're breaking the law. Either deport their asses or make them legal. One of the two.

[Mr. Peabody]

My understanding of the law (from reading the text) is that if the person queried by law enforcement presents a valid driver's license or state ID, the person is presumed to be in the United Stated lawfully.

My problem with the law is I don't know how you satisfy the reasonable suspicion standard, necessary to start the determination of citizenship, without engaging in some form of racial profiling. I don't know how you get specific and articulable facts about whether someone is here lawfully just by talking to them or observing them.

Also, the "lawful contact" standard is very broad. An officer can basically just walk up to you and start talking to you. And if you stay there willingly talking to the officer, that's "lawful contact."

Just for reference -


FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW
21 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW
22 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF
23 THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO
24 IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE
25 MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON,
26 EXCEPT IF THE DETERMINATION MAY HINDER OR OBSTRUCT AN INVESTIGATION. ANY
27 PERSON WHO IS ARRESTED SHALL HAVE THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS DETERMINED
28 BEFORE THE PERSON IS RELEASED. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE
29 VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION
30 1373(c). A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY,
31 CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY
32 CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF
33 THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR
34 ARIZONA CONSTITUTION. A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS
35 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW
36 ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
37 1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE.
38 2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE.
39 3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL
40 IDENTIFICATION.
41 4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED STATES
42 BEFORE ISSUANCE, ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT
43 ISSUED IDENTIFICATION.

[DarrinS]

My problem with the law is I don't know how you satisfy the reasonable suspicion standard, necessary to start the determination of citizenship, without engaging in some form of racial profiling. I don't know how you get specific and articulable facts about whether someone is here lawfully just by talking to them or observing them.


That's the same issue I have with it, besides the fact that it's just very impracticle. I have a friend in SA that can trace his roots to Tejanos that fought at the Alamo. I'm just a 4th generation Euro import, so I'm certainly no more American than he is. These people don't want illegals here by the millions any more than anyone else -- our system can't bear the burden. What we need to do is secure our borders and figure out a way to make those already here tax-paying American citizens.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

What we need to do is secure our borders and figure out a way to make those already here tax-paying American citizens.


:tu the obvious solution to any reasonable human being, Democrat or Republican, knows that the best and most effective way to stop illegal immigration is to secure the border. Even as what most would consider a Democrat I'd be OK with taking measures as drastic as needed to secure the border, whether it be an electrically charged fence or a mine field, anything that does the job. Given the growing MS-13 influence in this country and the fact the MS-13's have connections to Al-Queda, border security should be a MUCH bigger issue than tracking down illegals in this country, both at the state and federal level.

Once an illegal gets in this country it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack in addition to it being a financial drain on the country to have to jail, provide a public defender and put an illegal through the court process every time one is caught. This bill is also gonna make the job of cops impossible to have to respond to real crime AND interrogate every single person they see that fits the bills' criteria as a possible illegal. Moronic on so many levels, but idk what else to expect from a governor that doesn't even have a 4 year bachelors' degree.

[angrydude]

My problem with the law is I don't know how you satisfy the reasonable suspicion standard, necessary to start the determination of citizenship, without engaging in some form of racial profiling. I don't know how you get specific and articulable facts about whether someone is here lawfully just by talking to them or observing them.


Police do this all the time for all sorts of things.

But you know what I enjoy? Having to go register at a police station whenever I change addresses when I live abroad or get deported.

America's immigration policies have nothing on the rest of the worlds.

[nkdlunch]

reality is that starting an investigation on someone's status is a lot of work. Let's say officer gets approached by these 2 guys and neither is able to show a valid AZ id:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/04/07/opinion/rich-new.184.jpg

http://www.birchardphoto.com/stock/images/113.jpg

who do you think the officer chooses to start investigating???

(remember an average officer has 45 minutes between donnut breaks to do actual work)

[chichi!gettheyeyo]

I hope this guy shows up in an Arizona town soon

http://chenzhen.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/rambo1.jpg

[Mr. Peabody]

Police do this all the time for all sorts of things.



Yes, they do, but it's one thing to say a suspect appeared to be intoxicated, was driving a vehicle used during the commission of the offense, smelled of marijuana, fit the description of a suspect, was seen leaving a known drug house, etc. It's another to try and articulate your reasons for having suspicions about a seemingly imperceptible legal status just from talking to or observing a person.

My concern is that you'll get reasons such as a suspect doesn't speak English or had a certain appearance. which could lead to profiling.

[Oh, Gee!!]

he was brown, short, wore a wedge haircut with a rat-tail, wore lizard skin boots and matching belt, and los bukis was blaring from his removable-face alpine car stereo.

[Mr. Peabody]

he was brown, short, wore a wedge haircut with a rat-tail, wore lizard skin boots and matching belt, and los bukis was blaring from his removable-face alpine car stereo.

Well, I think all of those are already crimes in and of themselves.

[panic giraffe]

fashion crimes aren't a deportable offense, ask chingo bling.

[in2deep]

http://www.holamun2.com/files/images/attachments/2006/11/chingo-bling-and-yasmin.jpg

[admiralsnackbar]

:tu the obvious solution to any reasonable human being, Democrat or Republican, knows that the best and most effective way to stop illegal immigration is to secure the border. Even as what most would consider a Democrat I'd be OK with taking measures as drastic as needed to secure the border, whether it be an electrically charged fence or a mine field, anything that does the job. Given the growing MS-13 influence in this country and the fact the MS-13's have connections to Al-Queda, border security should be a MUCH bigger issue than tracking down illegals in this country, both at the state and federal level.

Once an illegal gets in this country it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack in addition to it being a financial drain on the country to have to jail, provide a public defender and put an illegal through the court process every time one is caught. This bill is also gonna make the job of cops impossible to have to respond to real crime AND interrogate every single person they see that fits the bills' criteria as a possible illegal. Moronic on so many levels, but idk what else to expect from a governor that doesn't even have a 4 year bachelors' degree.

We can't even keep drugs out of our borders.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I still don't know how I feel about this. I need to actually have the law in front of me and understand it to make a final decision.

The good that can come out of the law (whether or not its an acceptable law to the country) is that maybe the right wing resurgence, combined with the expected minority backlash, can somehow convince congress to actually DO SOMETHING about our fucking border.

But that won't happen.
Instead we will get the democrats pandering to the discriminated mexican for minority votes, and the republican will do the same for white votes.

We're witnessing a quick resurgence of the polarization of race in our country. Obama and the Dems sticking up for the Mexicans with no real reason other than wanting their votes is just going to make it even worse.

Why does this country have to keep kicking the can down the road for every possible fucking issue? It makes me sick. Nothing ever gets done in this broken country, and our elected leaders will never make progress on any issue, polarize and divide the country in the process so strongly, and the results are going to be devastating.

[Nbadan]

Study after study shows that immigrants pay more in taxes and social security than they take out, this isn't about economics, this is about hating brownie and keeping brownie from crossing the border and eventually voting Democrat...

[MiamiHeat]

It's fucking simple.

The LARGEST, SIGNIFICANTLY LARGEST, people coming into America illegally = mexicans.

If you look mexican and you are a citizen, you have nothing to worry about. A cop stops you, just pull out your drivers license and shit. I have carried my license and my social security card in my wallet since I was 18.

NO FUCKING PROBLEM.

Fuck these faggot bleeding hearts

"OH NAO, A POLICE STOPPED ME AND ASKED FOR MY ID!!!! I FUCKING FEEL HURT AND I WANNA CRY, MY RIGHTS IS VIOLATED!"

don't the cops ALREADY pull you over for WHATEVER THE FUCK THEY WANT when you are in your vehicle?

jesus h christ.

what a bunch of bullshit.

This law is exactly what we need. a Big can of RAID SPRAY to scatter all these fucking roaches in our country. get the fuck out and come back LEGALLY.

[Oh, Gee!!]

what if you forget your wallet? "I was born in East L.Aaaaaaaa!!!!"

[Oh, Gee!!]

It's fucking simple.

The LARGEST, SIGNIFICANTLY LARGEST, people coming into America illegally = mexicans.

If you look mexican and you are a citizen, you have nothing to worry about. A cop stops you, just pull out your drivers license and shit. I have carried my license and my social security card in my wallet since I was 18.

NO FUCKING PROBLEM.

Fuck these faggot bleeding hearts

"OH NAO, A POLICE STOPPED ME AND ASKED FOR MY ID!!!! I FUCKING FEEL HURT AND I WANNA CRY, MY RIGHTS IS VIOLATED!"

don't the cops ALREADY pull you over for WHATEVER THE FUCK THEY WANT when you are in your vehicle?

jesus h christ.

what a bunch of bullshit.

This law is exactly what we need. a Big can of RAID SPRAY to scatter all these fucking roaches in our country. get the fuck out and come back LEGALLY.

apparently, MiamiHeat likes government intrusion into his everyday life.

[CuckingFunt]

A cop stops you, just pull out your drivers license and shit. I have carried my license and my social security card in my wallet since I was 18.

As has already been pointed out in this thread, neither of those documents prove citizenship. You would need to have a birth certificate and/or passport with you.

Every day.

Ready to show at a moment's notice.

Been doing that since you were 18, too?

[Nbadan]

As has already been pointed out in this thread, neither of those documents prove citizenship. You would need to have a birth certificate and/or passport with you.

Every day.

Ready to show at a moment's notice.

Been doing that since you were 18, too?

He don't read very well....

[bresilhac]

This evil, piece of shit legislation in Arizona, Land of the Mexican haters, is nothing more than governmentally endorsed, institutional rascism. Plain and simple. It's designed to do one thing. To give Arizona pigs the ability to run roughshod over Mexican's, both domestic and foreign, civil rights and not have a second thought about doing so. This Arizona place has got to be one hateful, backwards ass state to have passed such evil, discrminatory legislation.

An interesting question would be if the hate state of Arizona plans to deport all of the Mexicans who clean their hotel rooms, wash their dishes and pick their lettuce among many other low end jobs. Probably not. Because doing so would realy cripple their hate economy. More than likely people who even remotely look Hispanic in Arizona will have to watch their steps and walk on eggshells because they could, due to "probable cause" get pulled over and be asked for their "papers". If this official hate legislation reminds you of 1930's Nazi dominated Germany it should. Because the similarities are striking.

Ultimately, anyone with any kind of respect or reverence for the notion that all human beings are instilled with basic, fundamental rights and deserve not to be messed with by discriminatory pigs should boycott this hateful, piece of shit state's businesses in protest. And this includes big corporations that do business in the hate state as well.

Arizona - Burn in Hell.

[Wild Cobra]

This evil, piece of shit legislation in Arizona, Land of the Mexican haters, is nothing more than governmentally endorsed, institutional rascism.
Are you really that stupid?

Did you read the legislation, or are you listening to liberal spin?

The law is almost identical to federal law that isn't being enforced.

[Stringer_Bell]

This evil, piece of shit legislation in Arizona, Land of the Mexican haters, is nothing more than governmentally endorsed, institutional rascism. Plain and simple. It's designed to do one thing. To give Arizona pigs the ability to run roughshod over Mexican's, both domestic and foreign, civil rights and not have a second thought about doing so. This Arizona place has got to be one hateful, backwards ass state to have passed such evil, discrminatory legislation.

An interesting question would be if the hate state of Arizona plans to deport all of the Mexicans who clean their hotel rooms, wash their dishes and pick their lettuce among many other low end jobs. Probably not. Because doing so would realy cripple their hate economy. More than likely people who even remotely look Hispanic in Arizona will have to watch their steps and walk on eggshells because they could, due to "probable cause" get pulled over and be asked for their "papers". If this official hate legislation reminds you of 1930's Nazi dominated Germany it should. Because the similarities are striking.

Ultimately, anyone with any kind of respect or reverence for the notion that all human beings are instilled with basic, fundamental rights and deserve not to be messed with by discriminatory pigs should boycott this hateful, piece of shit state's businesses in protest. And this includes big corporations that do business in the hate state as well.

Arizona - Burn in Hell.

"Probable cause" or "reasonable suspicion" or whatever was taken out of the bill recently, basically taking out the TEETH of the bill that got so many people hot under the sombrero.

For me, this is NOT about respect for human beings because in the animal kingdom there are no rights. It's really about a state government trying to act tough, it backfiring on them hilariously, and watching them scramble to appease people instead of scrambling to go after the real problems such as Corporate enablers, lack of National Guard to patrol the border, and lack of GOP/Liberal concern for a discussion on this issue.

But yea, I'm boycotting vagina from AZ. Haven't had any from there in a few years, and I certainly don't see a reason to start now. :hat

[bresilhac]

Are you really that stupid?

Did you read the legislation, or are you listening to liberal spin?

The law is almost identical to federal law that isn't being enforced.

Listen moron, if you are so naive that you cannot see this law as it will be implemented in subsequent years than you're as stupid as your last post. Get real.

[Jacob1983]

What about crimes committed by illegal immigrants? Couldn't you say any crime committed by an illegal immigrant on American soil is preventable? Preventable because if America wasn't a pussy on illegal immigration then those crimes wouldn't happen. America needs to step up and be tough on this shit. It's not racist. It's the fuckin law. If you're in America and don't have the proper documents/I.D. to legally be in America then you're breaking the law and should be punished. No ifs, ands, or buts.

[ChumpDumper]

Do you carry documents proving you are an American citizen with you at all times?

[Stringer_Bell]

Listen moron, if you are so naive that you cannot see this law as it will be implemented in subsequent years than you're as stupid as your last post. Get real.

In fairness to WC, the law has been retouched and it's going to be argued against in the courts. I wouldn't worry about it having much of a future, it really seems like bad posturing by the AZ government and it'll get trashed eventually (hopefully like the idiots that brought it to the table and the Governor herself, but that's just my humble opinion).

[DJ Mbenga]

Do you carry documents proving you are an American citizen with you at all times?

they say if you show an id that should be enough. i mean "should".

[ChumpDumper]

they say if you show an id that should be enough. i mean "should".Why should that be enough?

[Jacob1983]

I actually do. I got my first passport back in November and I carry it with me when I leave my house now. I use it when I buy beer and cigs mainly to see people's reactions. People always expect a person to show their driver's license.

[Stringer_Bell]

I actually do. I got my first passport back in November and I carry it with me when I leave my house now. I use it when I buy beer and cigs mainly to see people's reactions. People always expect a person to show their driver's license.

Wait up dude...you waht? You get asked for ID when you buy beer and cigs?

[Jacob1983]

I use to get asked but lately no. I usually show them my ID as a courtesy to them just in case they do ask me.

[RedsLakers24]

It's fucking simple.

The LARGEST, SIGNIFICANTLY LARGEST, people coming into America illegally = mexicans.

If you look mexican and you are a citizen, you have nothing to worry about. A cop stops you, just pull out your drivers license and shit. I have carried my license and my social security card in my wallet since I was 18.

NO FUCKING PROBLEM.

Fuck these faggot bleeding hearts

"OH NAO, A POLICE STOPPED ME AND ASKED FOR MY ID!!!! I FUCKING FEEL HURT AND I WANNA CRY, MY RIGHTS IS VIOLATED!"

don't the cops ALREADY pull you over for WHATEVER THE FUCK THEY WANT when you are in your vehicle?

jesus h christ.

what a bunch of bullshit.

This law is exactly what we need. a Big can of RAID SPRAY to scatter all these fucking roaches in our country. get the fuck out and come back LEGALLY.

No, you need more then a ID, according to the AZ Police. And why should someone be pull over just because of what he looks like?. Some guy provided his Liscence and his Social Security but that wasn"t enough, so he got arrested. Thats bull shit, why should someone who looks hispanic need to carry extra papers because of his looks?

[RedsLakers24]

What about crimes committed by illegal immigrants? Couldn't you say any crime committed by an illegal immigrant on American soil is preventable? Preventable because if America wasn't a pussy on illegal immigration then those crimes wouldn't happen. America needs to step up and be tough on this shit. It's not racist. It's the fuckin law. If you're in America and don't have the proper documents/I.D. to legally be in America then you're breaking the law and should be punished. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Thats not the reason why everyone is getting mad. The reason why people are getting mad is because people will only be asked for their papers because of their looks, not because of any other thing. Thats racist right there, America should do more to protect the borders but this law is just dumb and stupid

[MiamiHeat]

No, you need more then a ID, according to the AZ Police. And why should someone be pull over just because of what he looks like?. Some guy provided his Liscence and his Social Security but that wasn"t enough, so he got arrested. Thats bull shit, why should someone who looks hispanic need to carry extra papers because of his looks?

because you have to face reality. Majority of illegals are mexicans. This would piss off LEGAL immigrants by association.

So this is also a way to motivate LEGAL immigrants to scorn and scatter ILLEGAL immigrants. Yay, more help for the police.


How it is now? Legal immigrants accept people breaking the law and sneaking into our country and sucking our blood like leeches.

[MiamiHeat]

As has already been pointed out in this thread, neither of those documents prove citizenship. You would need to have a birth certificate and/or passport with you.

Every day.

Ready to show at a moment's notice.

Been doing that since you were 18, too?

fucking EASY.

With our modern computers and internet networks, just give police the option to run a quick computer check while out on the field.

1) hand over regular ID that you already hand over when stopped by a police officer, such as a driver's license.

2) Police checks to make sure it's not a forged ID. Goes to computer.

3) Your picture + info would show up. Fake license = would not show up.

If your picture + info matches your drivers license or SS card, bam you are good to go. No need to carry birth certificates.



PROBLEM FUCING SOLVED.

[ChumpDumper]

What if that person is not from Arizona?

[clambake]

i can see every yard sale turning into a sting operation.

[exstatic]

i can see every yard sale turning into a sting operation.

Actually, the cops should break into people's houses, tie them up and hold FAKE yard sales to attract wet backs!! It's all good as long as it's to get illegals, right? Who cares about a few citizen's trampled rights when it comes to immigration issues?!?!

[MiamiHeat]

What if that person is not from Arizona?

national database of driver licenses, etc.

these things are easy. we live in modern times with worldwide computer networks.

[Nbadan]

KzWvKOnKTA8

[clambake]

this is gonna be a major blow to the sombrero industry.

[Nbadan]

Wow, just wow..


Byal9cE1syw
x0Qcf63c_8c

[panic giraffe]

it's ok!
they're not a racist group, they're a group that just happens to be full of racists and keeps them on their board...see the difference there dan?

[Jacob1983]

Noah Wyle needs to go over losing on The Amazing Race.

[MiamiHeat]

Wow, just wow..


Byal9cE1syw
x0Qcf63c_8c

what does that have to do with the rest of us ?

Fuck FAIR, I support this arizona legislation

stupid of you to lump everyone in one boat as if they ALL want "separatist" lives.

of course, coming from you nbadan, no surprise.

[jack sommerset]

You fags let ST in on how to keep illegals out. There are 15 million of them. Make some suggestions.

[LnGrrrR]

You fags let ST in on how to keep illegals out. There are 15 million of them. Make some suggestions.

What I feel is the best method has already been proposed:

1) Beef up border security

2) Punish employers for hiring illegal immigrants/incentivize (sp?) hiring legal employees

The first is obvious. The second is a non-intrusive way to reduce the motivation to work here. Pretty simple.

[jack sommerset]

Both very obvious. The problem is actually doing it.

Arizona is giving the police authority to actually do something about the 15 million (Crazy high number) illegals her already and the minority of peeps don't like it. God forbid a police officer ask for ID. WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[George Gervin's Afro]

Both very obvious. The problem is actually doing it.

Arizona is giving the police authority to actually do something about the 15 million (Crazy high number) illegals her already and the minority of peeps don't like it. God forbid a police officer ask for ID. WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

you're such an idiot

[jack sommerset]

you're such an idiot

You're the fucking idiot.

[LnGrrrR]

Both very obvious. The problem is actually doing it.

Arizona is giving the police authority to actually do something about the 15 million (Crazy high number) illegals her already and the minority of peeps don't like it. God forbid a police officer ask for ID. WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

If every authority figure used their authority without abusing it, then conservatives wouldn't have a problem with the government, would they?

Can you not imagine situations where police might use their power improperly? Are you comfortable with a country in which policemen can ask for one's citizenship, with no rigorously defined laws establishing limits on that power?

Just because it's easy to provide proof of citizenship doesn't mean it should be necessary. Why should I have to prove who I am, unless there is an important legal reason why?

It's the same thought-process that leads to people wanting things like the Real ID, or any other number of steps towards more draconian measures.

[LnGrrrR]

Also, is it a surprise that border reform hasn't been established? Many companies use illegal workers; I'm sure on both sides of the aisle. If you want to change it, you can feel free to write your representatives, protest, etc etc.

[George Gervin's Afro]

If every authority figure used their authority without abusing it, then conservatives wouldn't have a problem with the government, would they?

Can you not imagine situations where police might use their power improperly? Are you comfortable with a country in which policemen can ask for one's citizenship, with no rigorously defined laws establishing limits on that power?

Just because it's easy to provide proof of citizenship doesn't mean it should be necessary. Why should I have to prove who I am, unless there is an important legal reason why?

It's the same thought-process that leads to people wanting things like the Real ID, or any other number of steps towards more draconian measures.



asking jackie to think outside the box may cause his head to explode..

[jack sommerset]

asking jackie to think outside the box may cause his head to explode..

LnGrrR's opinion is not thinking outside the box. You really hate yourself.


If every authority figure used their authority without abusing it, then conservatives wouldn't have a problem with the government, would they?

Can you not imagine situations where police might use their power improperly? Are you comfortable with a country in which policemen can ask for one's citizenship, with no rigorously defined laws establishing limits on that power?

Just because it's easy to provide proof of citizenship doesn't mean it should be necessary. Why should I have to prove who I am, unless there is an important legal reason why?

It's the same thought-process that leads to people wanting things like the Real ID, or any other number of steps towards more draconian measures.

Don't be afraid of the police over using their power. They work for us to keep us safe. You will always have a few bad nuts but overall the police do a great job.

It's very easy to ask for ID and we should. Their are 15 million illegals in our country. That speaks for itself. 15 MILLION people who are breaking our laws. We have to send them home. Asking for ID is a start.

Punishing the businesses and stronger borders are no brainers, IMHO. Alot of people have been wanting this for years. We will eventually do that. I also can imagine the crying that will go around when they pass laws to do that. You think asking for id is a big deal. Wait for businesses to lose money. Wait until people get hurt or even killed trying to enter the country on a daily basis.

15 million illegals. That's a problem for any country.

[z0sa]

Just because it's easy to provide proof of citizenship doesn't mean it should be necessary. Why should I have to prove who I am, unless there is an important legal reason why?

Wow. I don't think you know the extent of our "illegal" issue. Especially in border states, where Federal law guarantees certain amnesties for illegals but ends up costing almost entirely state $$.

There's absolutely reasoning to do this - but is it constitutional?

[LnGrrrR]

Don't be afraid of the police over using their power. They work for us to keep us safe. You will always have a few bad nuts but overall the police do a great job.

And our politicians are working for us to keep us happy. Does this mean they're above reproach?

I agree that overall the police do a great job. This is why I'm in favor of laws which, at the least, CLEARLY define when and where it may be legal to ask for ID. This law doesn't do so, in my opinion.

I favor being as strict as possible, because then abuse of power can only do so much. Isn't that the same view most conservatives have of federal government?



Wow. I don't think you know the extent of our "illegal" issue. Especially in border states, where Federal law guarantees certain amnesties for illegals but ends up costing almost entirely state $$.



I understand the issue; I differ on the means to fix it. As well, the "Check ID plan" will have serious political ramifications, and if the Republicans can't recognize that they're stupid. Already they've backtracked on the language of the bill... we'll really see how much damage has been caused with the Latino vote this cycle. I'm guessing it sways moderately to heavily towards Democrats, even though most Latinos are socially conservative.

As such, non-confrontational ways of weeding out illegal immigrants will gain much more traction, I feel.

[z0sa]

What 'non-confrontational' ways do you specifically reference?

[Yonivore]

I agree that overall the police do a great job. This is why I'm in favor of laws which, at the least, CLEARLY define when and where it may be legal to ask for ID. This law doesn't do so, in my opinion.
From Page 1 of the law:


B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).

[LnGrrrR]

What 'non-confrontational' ways do you specifically reference?

Well, maybe "non-confrontational' isn't quite the right word. Less intrusive, perhaps.


What I feel is the best method has already been proposed:

1) Beef up border security

2) Punish employers for hiring illegal immigrants/incentivize (sp?) hiring legal employees

The first is obvious. The second is a non-intrusive way to reduce the motivation to work here. Pretty simple.



B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT


Ok... what exactly does "lawful contact" mean, is what I'm getting at.

It doesn't seem to be well-defined, since they're already changing it to "lawful arrest, stop or detention", but even that isn't clear enough. What is a "lawful stop"?

I mean, if you're jaywalking, can a policeman ask to see your papers? How about if you're driving 5 over the speed limit?

Let's put it this way... the 4th Amendment limits the police from "unreasonable" search and seizure, correct?

The courts have defined "unreasonable" to mean that officers can't just stop you for a minor traffic violation and then ransack your car looking for illegal items.

The same goes for your home... let's say, for instance, that you build something on the side of your home that violates state law in some way, through some regulation. That doesn't give them the right to then go through your house looking for drugs.

I would like it spelled out clearly, under what sort of categories a police could REASONABLY assume a person was an illegal immigrant, as well as what is considered a lawful stop/contact. At the least.

[LnGrrrR]

Did some more research, and I think this blog spells it out well:
http://radioviceonline.com/lawful-contact-did-not-need-to-be-redefined-in-arizona-illegal-immigration-bill/



My post from April 26 (http://radioviceonline.com/liberals-prematurely-jumped-out-of-their-skin-concerning-ariz-immigration-law/) provided the links to the legislation and the summary. The bill uses normal statuary language and references lawful contact. I’m not a lawyer, but it’s my understanding those words are in reference to the normal lawful duties of law enforcement officers. These may include, but are not limited to, traffic stops with probable cause (speeding, broken tail-light, expired tags…), domestic dispute calls, drug investigations, and checking on suspicious activity … including running north through the desert just north of the border with backpacks in the middle of the night.
To make it even more clear, a lawful contact is one that is authorized, sanctioned, or not forbidden by law. Picking out a person from a crowd and asking for their ID because they “look brown” is not authorized or sanctioned, and is forbidden by law.


In the example given, there is a REASONABLE suspicion that someone may be an illegal immigrant. I wouldn't have a problem if the law is applied this way.

Again, the legal definition of "reasonable" is different from the common usage of the term.

[George Gervin's Afro]

From Page 1 of the law:

In other words whenever a cop approaches you.

[z0sa]

:lol I really don't know what world lngrrr is from. Cops pull people over and ransack their cars looking for drugs all the fucking time - it's happened to me over leaving my brights on. Entire interwoven - and legal - plots to seize money and possessions without an intention on returning them occur when one owns enough and doesn't work the political landscape to the local likings.

[Yonivore]

In other words whenever a cop approaches you.
...and is doing so for a lawful reason, after which you've given him probable cause.

He can't stop you, on your way to get ice cream with the family, and ask you to prove you're in the country legally.

[George Gervin's Afro]

...and is doing so for a lawful reason, after which you've given him probable cause.

He can't stop you, on your way to get ice cream with the family, and ask you to prove you're in the country legally.

Yoni even you have you acknowledge that cops approach people all of the itme without a crime being committed. hence 'lawful contact' is occuring. In the end it will be a cops word against an illegal when this happens. We all know that the cop will get the benefit of the time 99% of the time so they can do whatever they want.. right or wrong this is how it works

[Yonivore]

Yoni even you have you acknowledge that cops approach people all of the itme without a crime being committed. hence 'lawful contact' is occuring. In the end it will be a cops word against an illegal when this happens. We all know that the cop will get the benefit of the time 99% of the time so they can do whatever they want.. right or wrong this is how it works
So? If, during a lawful contact (however, you want to define it), a peace officer discovers -- upon reasonable suspicion -- a crime and enforces the relevant law, what's the problem?

[Yonivore]

Do NOT Read This Supreme Court Decision... (http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/2010/04/do-not-read-this-supreme-court-decision.html)


... if you want to be able to continue using terms like Nazi, Communist and Apartheid to describe the new Arizona immigration law. Or if, like President Obama (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/How-Obama-could-lose-Arizona-immigration-battle-92460459.html), you want to claim that the law would allow people to be questioned merely for going out for ice cream. Because none of these accusations have a basis in reality.

Some quick research, available to all the people screaming about the Arizona law, reveals that the U.S. Supreme Court has reviewed the issue of questioning potential illegal aliens regarding citizenship or immigration status, and has found such questioning permissible provided that the "characteristic appearance" of the person was not the sole factor giving rise to a "reasonable suspicion" that the person might be here illegally.

In U.S. v. Brignoni-Ponce, 422 U.S. 873 (http://supreme.justia.com/us/422/873/) (1975), the Supreme Court unanimously (with various concurring opinions) held that "roving patrols" by the U.S. border patrol (which by regulation had to be within 100 miles of the border) could not stop vehicles and question the occupants as to immigration status based solely on the occupants appearing to be Mexican. (I assume this case is why the Arizona statute forbids (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/29/opinion/29kobach.html) using race, color or national origin as the sole factor.)

Rather, the Supreme Court held there had to be other articulable factors which formed a reasonable suspicion under a "totality of the circumstances" test.

The Supreme Court provided a non-exhaustive list of some possible factors which could contribute to the formation of a reasonable suspicion, including characteristic appearance (emphasis mine):


"Any number of factors may be taken into account in deciding whether there is reasonable suspicion to stop a car in the border area. Officers may consider the characteristics of the area in which they encounter a vehicle. Its proximity to the border, the usual patterns of traffic on the particular road, and previous experience with alien traffic are all relevant ....

They also may consider information about recent illegal border crossings in the area. The driver's behavior may be relevant, as erratic driving or obvious attempts to evade officers can support a reasonable suspicion....

Aspects of the vehicle itself may justify suspicion. For instance, officers say that certain station wagons, with large compartments for fold-down seats or spare tires, are frequently used for transporting concealed aliens....

The vehicle may appear to be heavily loaded, it may have an extraordinary number of passengers, or the officers may observe persons trying to hide....

The Government also points out that trained officers can recognize the characteristic appearance of persons who live in Mexico, relying on such factors as the mode of dress and haircut....

In all situations the officer is entitled to assess the facts in light of his experience in detecting illegal entry and smuggling....

In this case the officers relied on a single factor to justify stopping respondent's car: the apparent Mexican ancestry of the occupants. We cannot conclude that this furnished reasonable grounds to believe that the three occupants were aliens." [case citations and footnotes omitted.]

Just a year later, the Supreme Court held that no reasonable suspicion was needed to engage in limited questioning of citizenship or immigration status at fixed checkpoints (unlike the roving patrols). U.S. v. Martinez-Fuerte, 428 U.S. 543 (http://supreme.justia.com/us/428/543/case.html) (1976). Take a look also at this Congressional Research Service memo (http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/intel/m013006.pdf) discussing the reasonable suspicion (to stop someone and ask questions) and probable cause (to conduct a search) standards, to get an idea of how the courts have struggled with these concepts.

There have been attempts to distinguish these cases, for example, where the questioning was done far away from the border area, or by state police not federal border patrol agents, and so on. And there may be other challenges to the Arizona law unrelated to the stopping and questioning. That's fine. That's why we have courts, to decide such matters.

Just don't claim that the Arizona legislature has done something government was not already empowered to do, or invented some new standard called "reasonable suspicion," or by failing to exclude "characteristic appearance" from being taken into consideration engaged in a clear constitutional violation.

In many ways, we have been there and done that judicially when it comes to the standards for questioning people as to their citizenship or immigration status.

The issue really is whether we want to push right up to these legal limits, or do we want to stop short out of political, philosophical or other concerns. There also are issues as to whether the policy will be effective, and other aspects of the law which may be challenged.

Regardless, the notion that the Arizona immigration law allows the police to question someone's immigration status just because the person "looks Mexican," or is "driving while Brown," or has a particular accent, has no basis in the Arizona statute or the clear history of the law in this area.

So if we were not Nazis and Communists and Apartheidists the day before the Arizona Governor signed the immigration law, we did not become any of those things the day after.

Update: Desmond Tutu (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/desmond-tutu/arizona----the-wrong-answ_b_557955.html) picks up on Obama's theme, and wrongly claims that looking or sounding Hispanic is a ground for questioning:


I am saddened today at the prospect of a young Hispanic immigrant in Arizona going to the grocery store and forgetting to bring her passport and immigration documents with her. I cannot be dispassionate about the fact that the very act of her being in the grocery store will soon be a crime in the state she lives in. Or that, should a policeman hear her accent and form a "reasonable suspicion" that she is an illegal immigrant, she can -- and will -- be taken into custody until someone sorts it out, while her children are at home waiting for their dinner.

Glenn Reynolds (http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/98472/) posts an e-mail from a federal immigration agent who argues that border security is not enough. If and when the courts deal with the Arizona statute, I expect the State of Arizona to argue that the illegal immigration situation has become so bad that the entire state now serves as the equivalent of the 100 mile border area discussed in the Brignoni-Ponce case.

Update No. 2: The Arizona legislature is in the process (http://www.abc15.com/content/news/phoenixmetro/central/story/Arizona-lawmakers-OK-several-changes-to/qNpxW7Jonkm9shejhnkiSQ.cspx) of amending the law to clarify certain terms, which should insulate the legislation from some of the anticipated challenges:


Another change replaces the phrase "lawful contact" with "lawful stop, detention or arrest" to apparently clarify that officers don't need to question a victim or witness about their legal status.

In a later post Professor Jacobsen elaborates even further...

Saturday Night Card Game (When The Race Card Met Godwin) (http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/2010/05/saturday-night-card-game-when-race-card.html)


This is the latest in a series (http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/search/label/Saturday%20Night%20Card%20Game) on the use of the race card for political gain:

It has been eight days since the Governor of Arizona signed the immigration law. A few tweaks (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/in-response-to-critics-arizona-tweaks-new-immigration-law-92495249.html) have been made in the wording of the law since then, but the essence (http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/2010/04/saturday-night-card-game-arizona.html) of the law remains the same:


Illegal immigration is illegal and will be treated as illegal, and the laws setting forth that illegality will be implemented in accordance with longstanding practices for determining citizenship and immigration status based on a constitutionally acceptable "reasonable suspicion (http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/2010/04/do-not-read-this-supreme-court-decision.html)" test.

A law which was not extraordinary, except to the extent that it signaled an intention to take the immigration laws seriously, was met with a crescendo of accusations of racism and Nazism (with a dash of communism and Apartheidism thrown in to spice things up a bit).

It really is hard to remember any event which has caused this level of vitriol, hyperbole and outright fabrication.
There's more in the post so, please, read it. However, with this last point, I must take exception.

You can pretty much pick any policy decision made by President George W. Bush and find this level of vitriol, byperbole, and outright fabrication by the Left.

[boutons_deux]

"policy decision made by President George W. Bush"

:lol

Repugs don't do policy,
they don't govern,
they intentionally mis-govern,
they do All Politics All The Time.

[Wild Cobra]

they say if you show an id that should be enough. i mean "should".
If you're driving, you need your ID. We have to carry "papers" for a variety of tasks. It's already in lay that non-citizens are required to carry their "papers" showing they are permitted to be here. It's been the law for decades already.

[Wild Cobra]

And why should someone be pull over just because of what he looks like?.
Can you show me where that is what the law says to do?

Some guy provided his Liscence and his Social Security but that wasn"t enough, so he got arrested. Thats bull shit, why should someone who looks hispanic need to carry extra papers because of his looks?
What was he arrested for? It's also possible he just came across a cop who abuses their authority. That will happen regardless of the law. It's happened to me before. I have white skin, blond hair, but not the blue eyes. They're olive colored.

Bad cops will do bad things, regardless of the law.

[LnGrrrR]

:lol I really don't know what world lngrrr is from. Cops pull people over and ransack their cars looking for drugs all the fucking time - it's happened to me over leaving my brights on. Entire interwoven - and legal - plots to seize money and possessions without an intention on returning them occur when one owns enough and doesn't work the political landscape to the local likings.

Then you gave up your rights. You don't have to let them search your car... if you choose to waive your rights, that's your issue.

Legally, cops can't search your vehicle for drug without probably cause, which doesn't include speeding or other minor traffic violations. Now, if cops see paraphernalia in the car, or the dogs smell something, then they have generated probable cause. Although if the dog isn't on-hand, you're not obliggated to "wait" for it to show up; it has to take place within the time limit allotted for the traffic stop.

And they can only inspect the visible portions of your car. Why do you think cops ask you to open up your glovebox compartment? They're not allowed to do it themselves legally.

Now, is it SMART to give the cop a hard time? I'd say not; the great majority (95%+) are just trying to do their job without being shot by some hood/junkie. But if a cop tries to be a dick, you're within your rights to refuse him searching you.

In the same vein, they can't ask you to disrobe or anything to check you for illegal possessions, though a slight frisk is considered legal.

And of course, there's a "gray area" which you allude to... implying that yes, cops bend the rules sometimes and use their power incorrectly. Given this view of yours, why are you in favor of giving them another law that could be interpreted in an incorrect manner?

[LnGrrrR]

long (http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/2010/04/do-not-read-this-supreme-court-decision.html) post about SCOTUS decision.

If the "reasonable" and "probable" causes are similar to the case cited, where people were near the border at strange times with backpacks full of supplies, I'm ok with that.

I just don't think being pulled over and looking brown is a "reasonable" suspicion of being an illegal immigrant, and would like the law to be written as clearly as possible to prevent abuses that would lead to those situations.

[LnGrrrR]

Bad cops will do bad things, regardless of the law.

Which in no way means we should not be writing the most clear, concise and CORRECT laws that we can. That way when bad cops DO cross the line, the standards are clear and they can't claim ignorance as to the wrongness of their deeds.

[boutons_deux]

"when bad cops DO cross the line"

... they almost never get caught, because the police force will close ranks around their criminal colleague and it becomes "policeman said" vs "victim said", and we know who wins that.

[Duff McCartney]

So? If, during a lawful contact (however, you want to define it), a peace officer discovers -- upon reasonable suspicion -- a crime and enforces the relevant law, what's the problem?

What is reasonable suspicion in this case? What could cause a police officer to reasonably suspect someone of being an illegal?

[Yonivore]

What is reasonable suspicion in this case? What could cause a police officer to reasonably suspect someone of being an illegal?

See earlier post:


"...the Supreme Court held there had to be other articulable factors which formed a reasonable suspicion under a 'totality of the circumstances' test."
I'm guessing, whatever is the "reasonable suspicion," it will have to be "articulable" and, pass an established test set in case law and prior U. S. Supreme Court rulings.

[jack sommerset]

It's not like looking for a needle in a hey stack. Ask for a ID and if you have that, move on. If you don't, you better have mommy come down to the station with it.

[ChumpDumper]

it will have to be "articulable" and, pass an established test set in case law and prior U. S. Supreme Court rulings.In other words, you have no idea.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Hey dumper of chumps


instead of dumping chumps, for one second can you give an opinion? What do you think about this bill?

I'm still totally undecided. I see both sides. Kind of leaning in favor of the new law, actually.

[ChumpDumper]

It looks a step on the road to a national ID. Big government types like Yoni should rejoice.

Does it do anything to criminalize the hiring of illegals? If not, it's not going to be very effective.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

It looks a step on the road to a national ID. Big government types like Yoni should rejoice.

Does it do anything to criminalize the hiring of illegals? If not, it's not going to be very effective.

Seems like every single thing ever enacted these days fits the old "slippery slope" description.

So alot of times I try to look at these things without that aspect in mind to see what I'd think then. If that makes sense. I don't think it warrants all the shit the left is giving it. I also don't like the left whoring itself out to minorities more and more because its just setting us up for a huge racial backlash from both sides in the future. I'm sick of the continuing polarization of the voting public in this country.

But I do agree, the only real way to truly get anything done on illegal immigration is to go closer to the source. That means employers and the border itself.

[jack sommerset]

But I do agree, the only real way to truly get anything done on illegal immigration is to go closer to the source. That means employers and the border itself.

If you think asking for a ID is a problem, wait until they enforce those 2 points!

[NFGIII]

I've read through most to the posts and so far I'm still undecided about what to really do about this situation. And I do agree that this, as with many other laws being passed recently, could be viewed as "slippery slope" situations.

On the one hand we have a state that is one of the biggest if not the biggest entry point for illegals in this country. Though I'm sure that their cheap labor has resulted in lower prices to a certain degree I'll also be willing to bet that the social costs...ie...crime. hospital. educational..etc...and the resulting increases in taxes to provide those services would probably be greater but haven't seen any research on this subject so it's MHO. It seems that the majority of the citizens in AZ are fed up with illegal immigration and want to do something about it. And frankly I can't blame them and what do you think the love ones and friends of Rob Krentz feel at this moment concerning illegals(assuming that he was indeed shot and kiiled by an illegal alien and possible drug smuggler, which hasn't been determined from what I was able to read)?
Should the citizens of AZ just endure this and wait for the Feds to finally do something? Or do they have a right to dictate what goes on in their state and especially how it effects their lives and personal safety?

But on the other hand it is a situation that will most likely lead to abuse and the law being misinterpreted. Though the law specially states that profiling can't be used you can bet it will be. It's only human nature for it to be used. IMO What is the percentile of Hispanics crossing the border into AZ illegally? Would you think it is extremely high, say 80 - 90+ %? I would think it very high and if I was a law enforcement person and I saw a bus load of Hispanic looking people who upon seeing me started to avoid me like the plague I probably would start paying close atention to their actions. Is that profiling or just common sense? I'm sure many will come down on both sides of the issue.

So to me their is ambiguity in this law that needs further defining. Maybe the way to do that would be for cases to hit the courts and the judges stepping in and defining this. And I do believe that American citizens of Hispanic ethnicity will be pulled over, questioned, in some cases harrassed, other cases arrested and jailed and horror stories will certainly come forth. But how does a society come up with laws that are fair, protect all citizens constitutional rights and confront the issue adequately without anyone being ill effected by it's implementation? Come up with that answer and you can pretty much write your own ticket in politics.

So on the one hand I see citizens of AZ fed up and trying to do something but on the other hand passing a law that will most certainly lead to abuse of the constitutional rights of a particular segment American citizens.

One way to deflect some of the criticism would be for the state of AZ to hire and/or promote from within more Hispanic Americans to help in enforcing this new law. Expect a Hispanic American to be put in charge or be the face of AZ's atttempt to implement this new law.

[Jacob1983]

Why can't America do a better job on immigration? Why is it so hard? And why is a country racist when they get tough on immigration? Sometimes I think that America should be like North Korea on people crossing the borders illegally. That might scare people into thinking twice about crossing the borders illegally here.

[ChumpDumper]

True. Millions of people are trying to get into North Korea to get jobs.

[Jacob1983]

I meant why can't America be strict like North Korea? North Korea will fuckin put you in prison for a long time if you cross the border illegally or even legally in some cases. Just sayin'. Why should people who cross a border illegally not be punished? Isn't it a crime when a person is somewhere they aren't allowed or don't belong? Am I missing something? Why is it so hard for immigrants to just gain legal status? If I was to leave America to work and live in a foreign country, I wouldn't go into that country illegally. I would do it the proper legal way. Why can't immigrants do that when they come to America?

[ChumpDumper]

Just so we're clear, you want the United States of America to be more like North Korea.

How much would it cost to house prisoners for the years you want to incarcerate them?

Do you know the process for legally immigrating?

[Jacob1983]

Chumpdumper, yeah that's exactly what I'm saying.:rolleyes

Can you not detect sarcasm?

[ChumpDumper]

Chumpdumper, yeah that's exactly what I'm saying.:rolleyes

Can you not detect sarcasm?You're saying you are being sarcastic?

You don't want the US to be tougher and imprison illegal immigrants for years?

[Yonivore]

http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/files/2010/05/504.JPG

[Jacob1983]

Yeah, why not? It might send a message to people that coming into America is a crime and people will be punished for it. Are you going to tell me that a person should be allowed to enter any country including America without the proper documents and ID? Yes or no?

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, why not? It might send a message to people that coming into America is a crime and people will be punished for it. Are you going to tell me that a person should be allowed to enter any country including America without the proper documents and ID? Yes or no?So to be clear: you were not being sarcastic.

Right?

[Jacob1983]

Yeah and I posted that shit about North Korea just to piss you off, dumper. Seriously, if you're so against this new law, why aren't you doing something about it? Why not get off your computer and go protest it?

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah and I posted that shit about North Korea just to piss you off, dumper.Well, you failed at that. Do you know that sarcasm is?


Seriously, if you're so against this new law, why aren't you doing something about it? Why not get off your computer and go protest it?What gave you the idea I was so against it?

I think it's a stupidly impractical law and will prove to be exactly that pretty quickly without any protest at all. I'm for going after the employers. If there is a protest for that particular issue in town, let me know about it.

[Wild Cobra]

Why can't America do a better job on immigration? Why is it so hard?
It isn't hard at all. Politicians simply want more illegal voters to keep liberal control of congress.

And why is a country racist when they get tough on immigration?
It's the liberals accusing conservative of racism anytime we want to stop it. There is nothing racist about wanting to control immigration.

Sometimes I think that America should be like North Korea on people crossing the borders illegally. That might scare people into thinking twice about crossing the borders illegally here.

What I find ironic is that the president of Mexico calls our practices barbaric, racist, etc. I guess he know most people in the world don't know their practices on their southern border.

[Wild Cobra]

Chumpdumper, yeah that's exactly what I'm saying.:rolleyes

Can you not detect sarcasm?
Forget Chump. He does all he can to twist a persons meaning just to sidetrack an issue. You're best off to ignore the asshole. In any other forum I have been in, he would be banned.

[ChumpDumper]

It isn't hard at all. Politicians simply want more illegal voters to keep liberal control of congress.Tell us all how many illegal voters there are.

[George Gervin's Afro]

It isn't hard at all. Politicians simply want more illegal voters to keep liberal control of congress.

It's the liberals accusing conservative of racism anytime we want to stop it. There is nothing racist about wanting to control immigration.

What I find ironic is that the president of Mexico calls our practices barbaric, racist, etc. I guess he know most people in the world don't know their practices on their southern border.

Illegals can't vote

[mexpurs21]

What I find ironic is that the president of Mexico calls our practices barbaric, racist, etc. I guess he know most people in the world don't know their practices on their southern border.

Could you describe what racist practice is supported by President Calderon??

[Wild Cobra]

Illegals can't vote
Sure they do.

Do you have to "show your papers" when you vote?

You don't have a measurable crime when the law isn't enforced.

[Wild Cobra]

Could you describe what racist practice is supported by President Calderon??
I'm not saying he is a racist, I'm saying he's a lying hypocrite.

[ElNono]

Sure they do.
Do you have to "show your papers" when you vote?
You don't have a measurable crime when the law isn't enforced.

You're not asked for identification when you vote?
How many illegal aliens you know cast a vote?

[Jacob1983]

So the question is should people be allowed to cross into a country illegally? Yes or no?

[mexpurs21]

I'm not saying he is a racist, I'm saying he's a lying hypocrite.

That's a typical statement from an unknowledgeable American to Mexico, just throwing accusations without supporting them.

[mexpurs21]

So the question is should people be allowed to cross into a country illegally? Yes or no?

Fuck no!!!

[ElNono]

So the question is should people be allowed to cross into a country illegally? Yes or no?

The answer to that question is a resounding no.
But this legislation does absolutely nothing to address that question.
Which is exactly why it's being criticized.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Sure they do.

Do you have to "show your papers" when you vote?

You don't have a measurable crime when the law isn't enforced.

Anyone who votes without ID or a voter registration card is reviewed individually against voter regsitration rolls.... so no, illegals can't cast a vote...

[ChumpDumper]

WC, tell us how many illegal immigrant votes were cast in the 2008 election.

Show us your proof.

[jack sommerset]

Most people support the bill.

[superjames1992]

motherfuckers. I love Arizona Ice Tea and now I'm gonna have to boycott that shit. Anybody know other non-arizona options?

That tea is made in New York, but feel free to boycott those Yankees if you'd like.

[superjames1992]

I've read through most to the posts and so far I'm still undecided about what to really do about this situation. And I do agree that this, as with many other laws being passed recently, could be viewed as "slippery slope" situations.

On the one hand we have a state that is one of the biggest if not the biggest entry point for illegals in this country. Though I'm sure that their cheap labor has resulted in lower prices to a certain degree I'll also be willing to bet that the social costs...ie...crime. hospital. educational..etc...and the resulting increases in taxes to provide those services would probably be greater but haven't seen any research on this subject so it's MHO. It seems that the majority of the citizens in AZ are fed up with illegal immigration and want to do something about it. And frankly I can't blame them and what do you think the love ones and friends of Rob Krentz feel at this moment concerning illegals(assuming that he was indeed shot and kiiled by an illegal alien and possible drug smuggler, which hasn't been determined from what I was able to read)?
Should the citizens of AZ just endure this and wait for the Feds to finally do something? Or do they have a right to dictate what goes on in their state and especially how it effects their lives and personal safety?

But on the other hand it is a situation that will most likely lead to abuse and the law being misinterpreted. Though the law specially states that profiling can't be used you can bet it will be. It's only human nature for it to be used. IMO What is the percentile of Hispanics crossing the border into AZ illegally? Would you think it is extremely high, say 80 - 90+ %? I would think it very high and if I was a law enforcement person and I saw a bus load of Hispanic looking people who upon seeing me started to avoid me like the plague I probably would start paying close atention to their actions. Is that profiling or just common sense? I'm sure many will come down on both sides of the issue.

So to me their is ambiguity in this law that needs further defining. Maybe the way to do that would be for cases to hit the courts and the judges stepping in and defining this. And I do believe that American citizens of Hispanic ethnicity will be pulled over, questioned, in some cases harrassed, other cases arrested and jailed and horror stories will certainly come forth. But how does a society come up with laws that are fair, protect all citizens constitutional rights and confront the issue adequately without anyone being ill effected by it's implementation? Come up with that answer and you can pretty much write your own ticket in politics.

So on the one hand I see citizens of AZ fed up and trying to do something but on the other hand passing a law that will most certainly lead to abuse of the constitutional rights of a particular segment American citizens.

One way to deflect some of the criticism would be for the state of AZ to hire and/or promote from within more Hispanic Americans to help in enforcing this new law. Expect a Hispanic American to be put in charge or be the face of AZ's atttempt to implement this new law.
This is a great post and basically defines how I view the law.


Why can't America do a better job on immigration? Why is it so hard? And why is a country racist when they get tough on immigration? Sometimes I think that America should be like North Korea on people crossing the borders illegally. That might scare people into thinking twice about crossing the borders illegally here.
Because all both parties are concerned about is getting elected. The Republicans are afraid of the backlash that this sort of reform will have and are afraid of losing the Hispanic vote (those they already lose most of it, as it is now, anyways).

And the liberals want more votes, so they want amnesty for illegals because the majority of those are going to vote for Democrats.

It's really sick that neither party is actually concerned about the illegal immigrants and they people they affect. It's all about money and power, as most things are.

[admiralsnackbar]

And the liberals want more votes, so they want amnesty for illegals because the majority of those are going to vote for Democrats.


That would be brilliant strategy if the illegals were allowed to vote, but that is never going to happen. Their children may vote if they are born here, but green-card carriers (like my dad) cannot vote.

[superjames1992]

That would be brilliant strategy if the illegals were allowed to vote, but that is never going to happen. Their children may vote if they are born here, but green-card carriers (like my dad) cannot vote.
You are correct, but that's why they want amnesty for illegals. Then they'll be legal citizens and will have every right to vote.

[smeagol]

As long as America continues to be super rich and a bunch of countries, super poor, people will continue risking their lives to find a better future in America.

No law is going to stop that.

[jack sommerset]

That's not true. If they can't make any money they won't come here.

[admiralsnackbar]

That's not true. If they can't make any money they won't come here.

Please say more.

[jack sommerset]

Please say more.

Okay. LMFAO @ people boycotting Arizona!!!!!! Especially the mayor of San Fransico. They can't spend money in their own state let alone anyone elses.

[ElNono]

That's not true. If they can't make any money they won't come here.

And this legislation prevents them from making money how exactly?

[jack sommerset]

And this legislation prevents them from making money how exactly?

I never said it did.