Get rid of this guy Cuban

[Findog]

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2010/4/27/1446162/caron-butler-was-a-big-part-of-the

He's basically Josh Howard with a better attitude in the locker room. He's got one year left on his deal, so the Mavs should be able to pair him up with Dampier's contract this summer.


So what's the theme of Caron Butler's season? It's very hard to function when you're dogged by resentment and dreams of personal success. Butler has moved on to Dallas, where he's now shooting more than Dirk Nowitzki and generally wasting possessions like he did in DC. His game has declined with age, sure, much like other 29-year olds who have been as injury-prone as him.

[Mavs_man_41]

lol everyone talked about how butler was such a huge upgrade..the only "upgrade" part of that deal was Haywood, who we barely even play. go figure.

[anonoftheinternets]

tough juice, brings much needed "toughness" to this dallas team. Its really tough to make contested long two footers and pass up open three pointers. Tough juice.

[monosylab1k]

so get rid of him because he's confident in his abilities and doesn't put up with Gilbert Arenas' bullshit? okay.

Comparing him to Josh Howard is ridiculous. Just because they both think they're All-Stars doesn't mean they have the same personality flaws. Josh was lazy, arrogant, and insecure. His so-called confidence was merely a defense mechanism to hide his insecurities.

Caron Butler is completely different. He's worked his ass off to get where he is, his confidence comes from being completely secure with who he is and how he's gotten here. You can't even begin to compare Caron with Josh.

Now Caron will definitely have to accept a reduced role in the offense next season. There's no doubt about it. If he doesn't want to do that, then make a move. But you've got to give him a chance to make that decision. He's always had a much higher level of maturity than Josh Howard ever had. Jerry Stackhouse accepted a lesser role in Dallas. I don't think Caron Butler has ever had anywhere near the shot-hunter, "out to get his" reputation that Stackhouse had. Give him a chance.

It's tough to see you're in decline until it's already hit you. That could be where all this early season talk came from. Jason Kidd talks in much the same way, are we gonna ship him out too?

And take a look at the numbers - Dallas Basketball just posted an article about it. The Mavs have played better when Caron gets more minutes, not less.

[monosylab1k]

And any article that paints Gilbert Arenas as a victim in any way is laughable to say the least.

[monosylab1k]

One last thing, Caron's been jerked around in Dallas way more than Josh Howard ever was. There hasn't been any instance of ego feeding or coddling with Caron. How do you think Josh would have reacted to a game 3 benching? We still wouldn't be hearing the last of his bitching and crying over it. He would have pouted his way all through Game 4 too. There's no way Caron like being benched, but he was a professional about it, he accepted it, and then in Game 4 he tried to make up for it.

You may call it shot hunting, I saw Caron's volume shooting in Game 4 as a way of saying "Game 3 is in the past, I'm moving on and I want to give this team a spark on offense". It didn't work out for him, but again, comparing him to Josh is ignorant at best and completely idiotic at worst.

[z0sa]

I agree with Monosylab1k. I hope mavfan isn't excessively faulting Caron. His play has gone up and down, but so have his minutes. And who'd have thought he would be benched an entire half in a close playoff game?

Blame RC before you blame Caron. He's been nothing but a pro this whole series, albeit a cold shooting one.

[stretch]

Yeah, Caron > Howard

I think if he is still around next year, him and Haywood both will definitely be a more efficient player after having a full camp and offseason to get used to his team and and for the coaching staff to figure ways to use their strengths more effectively. It's very similar to Kidd when he first got here. Kidd seemeed to play solidly and his stats seemed to reflect that, but in all honesty, you could tell he needed more time to get more in sync with his teammates. By next season, it seemed as if he had been here for years. Butler has some really good tools that will fit in with this team, especially his mid-range shot. I believe that he will be a much better fit by next year.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

If Caron can get to the rim consistently he can be a huge plus for Dallas. He was huge in game 1, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him getting it going tonight.

[Findog]

Caron is a #3 option being asked to fill the role of a #2 option. He and Stevenson are owed $15 million together next year as expirings. The Mavs should be aggressive this summer in trying to find a true #2 option for Dirk (Josh Howard and Jason Kidd as injury All Star alternates don't cut it). If it takes Butler's contract together with Dampier to make that happen, I'm all for it.


comparing him to Josh is ignorant at best and completely idiotic at worst.

You may have missed the part where I said he has a much better attitude than Howard. I never compared his character or work ethic to Howard. But on the court he basically is fulfilling the same role with about the same level of production he's a wing that takes too many shots given his lack of efficiency and takes too many contested jumpers versus driving to the basket.

But we can't question your opinion, since you called this series being 3-1 Spurs at this point. Just like we can't question when you said the Mavs and Nuggets were better than the Lakers and Gerald Green has what it takes to be a productive NBA player.

[Findog]

I agree with Monosylab1k. I hope mavfan isn't excessively faulting Caron. His play has gone up and down, but so have his minutes. And who'd have thought he would be benched an entire half in a close playoff game?

Blame RC before you blame Caron. He's been nothing but a pro this whole series, albeit a cold shooting one.

The problem is with the way this team is structured. More is being asked of him than what he can deliver. And I think he has more value to this team as a guy with an expiring contract than if they roll into next year asking him to be a #2 option.

[nkdlunch]

Agree with mono. Caron has been a good teamate and professional. He still has done a 200% better job at integrating to his new team than RJ. I would take Caron over RJ in a second.

That being said, I seen Caron in DC and he is known for his inconsistency and often slacks off. He is also not known for stepping up in the playoffs. But I am sure Cuban knew that already....

[Findog]

And any article that paints Gilbert Arenas as a victim in any way is laughable to say the least.

How does that article paint Arenas as a victim? I've been following the guy who writes BulletsForever for awhile via RSS and twitter. I don't think he gives Arenas a pass for how their season imploded.

[badfish22]

I agree with Monosylab1k. I hope mavfan isn't excessively faulting Caron. His play has gone up and down, but so have his minutes. And who'd have thought he would be benched an entire half in a close playoff game?

Blame RC before you blame Caron. He's been nothing but a pro this whole series, albeit a cold shooting one.

yup. It all goes back to Carlisle.

[Findog]

Agree with mono. Caron has been a good teamate and professional. He still has done a 200% better job at integrating to his new team than RJ. I would take Caron over RJ in a second.

That being said, I seen Caron in DC and he is known for his inconsistency and often slacks off. He is also not known for stepping up in the playoffs. But I am sure Cuban knew that already....

Yeah, he's a good guy, I thought I made that clear via contrasting him with Howard in the first post. I appreciate his team-first ethos. But we can't beat the Spurs when Dirk's usage rate is down from the regular season and Butler is taking contested step-back jumpers that he's hitting at a 39% clip. If he's willing to take a reduced role next year as a #3 option and we can go out and get an Andre Iguodala without having to pair him with Damp's contract, then I'm all for it. But I don't think the Mavs should be married to this guy.

[z0sa]

The problem is with the way this team is structured. More is being asked of him than what he can deliver. And I think he has more value to this team as a guy with an expiring contract than if they roll into next year asking him to be a #2 option.

But you've got to know Butler is more capable than he's shown in this series. It's hard getting thrown into the fire inconsistently against the Spurs, who honestly have overachieved by a considerable margin relative to most of their regular season.

Carlisle sitting him was a wrong move. Some of those Wizard experiences must get burned out the hard way so he can grow into what the Mavericks need him to be.

[nkdlunch]

Yeah, he's a good guy, I thought I made that clear via contrasting him with Howard in the first post. I appreciate his team-first ethos. But we can't beat the Spurs when Dirk's usage rate is down from the regular season and Butler is taking contested step-back jumpers. that he's hitting at a 39% clipIf he's willing to take a reduced role next year as a #3 option and we can go out and get an Andre Iguodala without having to pair him with Damp's contract, then I'm all for it. But I don't think the Mavs should be married to this guy.

well then I guess the mistake is on the mavs office. Because that is exactly been Caron's game for years.

And give a little credit to the Spurs and their D.

IMO the biggest factors to Spurs beating the Mavs SO FAR are:
1. Carlisle being outcoached
2. Spurs guards destroying mavs guards
3. Mavs can't guard the pick n roll
4. Duncan/McDyess vs. Erick/Brendan

[sribb43]

Unfortunately for Butler, he has had to play out of position here in Dallas. Funny how both Butler and JHo struggled this season by having to play SG. I put more of the blame on the front office and coaching staff for thinking these guys can play out of position

[z0sa]

Butler still has as many as 3 games to prove he's worth a damn. IF he can get consistent floor time and make the most of it.

[CubanMustGo]

When I saw the title I thought "WTF, Mav fan wants to get rid of Cuban??" :tu Unfortunately it turned out to be Mav fan not using punctuation. sb "Get rid of this guy, Cuban" not "Get rid of this guy Cuban." :depressed

[Cane]

Great article.

The Mavs did make improvements in their trades but unlike the Cavs have yet to find the best way to utilize their new acquisitions and depth.

However in the case of Butler it looks like you've got an overconfident shooter that hasn't come to terms of his decline. In this league there are a lot of guards that would probably be a better fit especially younger legs that can still drive in the lane consistently.

This is where guys like Manu sets himself apart from the rest when it comes to interview comments. He's about as straightforward and honest as it gets - Butler on the other hand coats it with his own spin and overconfidence of his abilities.

Its great to be confident but not to the point where you resemble Allen Iverson which Butler is on track to become as he gets older. No wonder he's been tossed around in the league and this kind of shit would make Jerry Sloan, Phil Jackson, or Pop's heart explode in disbelief:


January 20. By now, Arenas is suspended and the team is trying to fight on without him. They had just lost a close game to Dallas that ended with Butler having his buzzer-beating shot blocked by Shawn Marion. Flip Saunders storms into the press room angry as ever and had something he wanted to get off his chest.

Typically, Saunders comes out really quickly or really slowly. Usually, when he's angry, he comes out quickly because he wants to get the press conference over with. Tonight, he came out so quick that none of the beat reporters are in the room. It's just me and a couple other stragglers that rarely ask questions. Finally, I stutter and say to Flip, "So, about that last play."

"That wasn't the play we were supposed to run," Saunders said.

Bewildered, I asked the obvious follow-up question. "What play were you supposed to run."

"That wasn't the play we were supposed to run.

In the locker room, Butler is breaking his postgame routine, much like he broke the last play. Typically, Butler gets changed in the training room, taking his sweet time before coming out in his suit. He borrowed the act from former teammate Kobe Bryant as a way of presenting himself well. This season, however, he had been slower than usual on most nights, waiting so long that all the beat reporters have often left the locker room by the time he comes out.

On this night, though, he knows he has to face the music, so he comes out quickly.

"It was drawn up either to get myself the ball up top or get somebody coming to the corner. Obviously, I wanted the ball. I kind of had my mind made up of what I was going to do already, and I just mistimed it. Good defense."

"Unfortunately, it is what it is."

Someone else revealed that the play was supposed to be for Randy Foye.

So what's the theme of Caron Butler's season? It's very hard to function when you're dogged by resentment and dreams of personal success. Butler has moved on to Dallas, where he's now shooting more than Dirk Nowitzki and generally wasting possessions like he did in DC. His game has declined with age, sure, much like other 29-year olds who have been as injury-prone as him.

But this is not your typical decline. Much like Kevin Garnett, Butler has declined while kicking and screaming about the wonder days that were. He's the last person to accept the fact that he isn't the player he once was. He never figured it out in DC and he doesn't appear to have figured it out in Dallas. Worse, his decline was accelerated by lingering resentment of his co-star that only grew when that co-star started missing games. That co-star is now on a different team, but Butler still stubbornly pushes on, trying to show he deserved his past status.

And really, this is a story about how precious one's state of mind is in this game. Butler went from being one of the league's most unselfish and professional players to one with too big an opinion of himself that resented his teammates. It was a dramatic shift and it couldn't have happened to a more unexpected guy. If it can happen to Butler, it can happen to anyone.

But there's no denying it happened and that it helped torpedo a season that was supposed to be promising. There are lots of people who deserve blame this season. Caron Butler should be one of them.

[monosylab1k]

How does that article paint Arenas as a victim? I've been following the guy who writes BulletsForever for awhile via RSS and twitter. I don't think he gives Arenas a pass for how their season imploded.

By saying Arenas was suffering and frustrated by Caron, which is ridiculous. Arenas is the biggest undisciplined ballhog the NBA has seen since Iverson in his prime. Any shot hunting one of Agent Zero's teammates might have done with him on the court is just payback for what he's done to them for years.

And he makes it sound like a bad thing that Caron resented the attention and star status Gilbert had. Who wouldn't be resentful that their attention whore ballhog of a teammate who hadn't played any meaningful games in over 2 years is still being treated like the alpha dog on the team?

[Lars]

Im not sure how you can be so good at acquiring talent but can't seem to grasp the incredibley simplistic concept of getting a goddamn post presence. It doesnt matter how many jump shooters you have, with no post presence, you arent going to win dick.

[monosylab1k]

He's basically Josh Howard with a better attitude in the locker room.


You may have missed the part where I said he has a much better attitude than Howard. I never compared his character or work ethic to Howard.


Yeah, he's a good guy, I thought I made that clear via contrasting him with Howard in the first post.

So one post he's basically Josh Howard minus being head of the locker room party planning committee.

Next post he's basically Josh Howard, but his attitude went from better to much better, also remove any comparisons with character or work ethic.

Third post, the comparison of being "basically Josh Howard" was actually a contrast of the two, not to show their similarities.

Pick a lane...:wakeup

[Findog]

So one post he's basically Josh Howard minus being head of the locker room party planning committee.

Next post he's basically Josh Howard, but his attitude went from better to much better, also remove any comparisons with character or work ethic.

Third post, the comparison of being "basically Josh Howard" was actually a contrast of the two, not to show their similarities.

Pick a lane...:wakeup

The fuck? If you can't grasp that I never equated his attitude or work ethic with Josh Howard, then that's your problem, not mine. Stop grasping at straws.

On the court, their roles and production are similar. This is what they did in Dallas this year, excluding each player's tenure with the Wiz:

Butler - .509 TS% and .464 eFG% with a 22% usage rate
Howard - .492 TS% and .430 eFG% with a 24% usage rate

Butler - 8.5% assist rate
Howard - 8.2% assist rate

Butler - 11% turnover percentage
Howard - 10% turnover percentage

They are both decent to slightly above average defenders. So Butler is a marginally better player than Howard given their similar roles on this team (wing player expected to be Dirk's Robin), while being a better person. He also has an expiring contract that the Mavs can package with Damp. It's worth exploring if he has more value to this franchise as at trade chip than bringing him back and asking him to be your #2 option. If you're taking issue or disputing that, then I don't know what we're arguing about.

[monosylab1k]

And what stat can you find that shows how many times Caron Butler would turn the ball over, commit a stupid overreaction foul five seconds later, then argue with the ref until he gets T'd up? All while the Mavs were in the middle of a run, which just got killed. How many times has Caron done that? Cuz Josh did shit like that all the fucking time.

Where's the stat where Caron walks up and down the court pouting because he hasn't been coddled enough? Or the stat showing how often the team is in a huddle listening to the coach and Caron is watching the funny video on the big screen instead, making it obvious to the team that he could give a fuck less about the game.

Show me those stats and I'll concede they have a similar effect on the court. Numbers don't tell the whole story of what goes on. The way his teammates react to his behavior on the court must be factored in.

[ElNono]

Butler has indeed been a pro, especially in his comments after being benched on game 3...
That said, he's a guy that can easily let a good performance or two get to his head and start chucking up a storm. Happened in LA, happened in DC, will most likely happen in Dallas.
The thing is, outside of his shot and the occasional highlight dunk, the guy is pretty average. I would say his biggest drawback is a fairly low basketball IQ.
If you can get a solid piece for him, you do it...

[ElNono]

To me, talent-wise, Howard >>>> Butler...
That said, Howard made it clear he didn't give a shit about his team since basically '07... So you have to move a guy like that...

[Findog]

And what stat can you find that shows how many times Caron Butler would turn the ball over, commit a stupid overreaction foul five seconds later, then argue with the ref until he gets T'd up? All while the Mavs were in the middle of a run, which just got killed. How many times has Caron done that? Cuz Josh did shit like that all the fucking time.

Here's your stat:

Butler - 11% turnover rate with a 23% usage rate
Howard - 10% turnover rate with a 25% usage rate

Facts are facts: Howard took better care of the ball than Butler does. He turned it over less while handling the ball more. So Josh "doing shit like that all the fucking time" occurred less than Butler turning it over even though he was trying his hardest and having his head screwed on straight. I'd rather have Butler, but the upgrade he has provided over Howard has been marginal at best.

It pains me to say it, but on this aspect of the trade, Hollinger was right. About the biggest tangible benefit of Butler vis a vis Howard was a better locker room. It hasn't translated into much more wing production. Josh Howard would still be a Mav if he gave them what he did from 2005-2008. He could be a raging asshole for all they care as long as the production was the same. It wasn't. Butler being a nicer guy doesn't make him anything more than a slightly better player than Howard at this point.



Where's the stat where Caron walks up and down the court pouting because he hasn't been coddled enough? Or the stat showing how often the team is in a huddle listening to the coach and Caron is watching the funny video on the big screen instead, making it obvious to the team that he could give a fuck less about the game.

Where's the stat that shows Butler making about 3 or 4 pumpfakes 18-20 feet from the rim and then line-driving the ball at the basket for a brick? He's shooting 39% from the floor in this series and taking away possessions from a guy shooting 54%.

[duncan228]

Caron Butler, shooting the Mavs in the foot (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Caron-Butler-shooting-the-Mavs-in-the-foot?urn=nba,236746)
By Dan Devine

[monosylab1k]

Okay fine, you're right Mr. "Spurs in 6 is the most pessimistic, overly cynical prediction". Let's ship Caron Butler the fuck out of town. Sign Josh back after the season's over. Watch the whole team crumble, watch Dirk quit on the team halfway through the season again, watch another scramble for another midseason trade. Have fun!

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

IMO the fact Caron Butler has had to play out of position is a big reason for his inefficiencies. If Dallas were to bring in a legit 2 guard and move Butler back to three so he isn't trying to create for himself so much, he plays a lot better.

[monosylab1k]

Josh Howard plays like ass in the New Orleans series, but that can be excused. Keep giving him chance after chance after chance after chance. Even if he's a dickwad in the locker room and doesn't care about winning.

Caron Buler works his ass off, acts right, and gets 1/4 a season and plays like ass in one playoff series, but that faggot needs to go right now. Cuz he doesn't like Gilbert fucking Arenas.

[Findog]

Okay fine, you're right Mr. "Spurs in 6 is the most pessimistic, overly cynical prediction".

Thanks Mr. "Nuggets and Mavs are better than the Lakers" and "Gerald Green would be a productive NBA player if only another team gave him a chance after his previous four gave up on him."


Let's ship Caron Butler the fuck out of town.

Depends on what we get for him.


Sign Josh back after the season's over

Sarcastic Strawman duly noted.


Watch the whole team crumble, watch Dirk quit on the team halfway through the season again, watch another scramble for another midseason trade. Have fun!

Let's see what Dampier/Butler fetches us. That's $10 million in obligations a club is taking on, while the Mavs would be getting back $23 million worth of talent. I have no prob with Butler as a #3 option, but expecting him to be a #2 is a waste of time.

[monosylab1k]

I have no prob with Butler as a #3 option

Hence a thread entitled "Get rid of this guy Cuban"

[Findog]

Caron Buler works his ass off, acts right, and gets 1/4 a season and plays like ass in one playoff series, but that faggot needs to go right now.

He has a $10 million expiring contract. If we get that elusive 2-guard and we can slide Caron down to #3 in the pecking order, then great. I hope he's a Mav next year. But if we have to part with him to get that 2-guard, I wouldn't hesitate. This is nothing personal against Caron.

If the Mavs are thinking "Caron had 1/3 of a season with us and just needs to get a training camp with Kidd and the boys under his belt, and then he can be our #2 guy," then blegh....

[Findog]

Hence a thread entitled "Get rid of this guy Cuban"

Did that thread title rub you the wrong way?

[monosylab1k]

Did that thread title rub you the wrong way?

Well if it means you're going to waffle and now say it would be great to still have Caron on the team, then I supposed it's just par for the course.

[Ghazi]

J-Ho sucks.

[monosylab1k]

J-Ho sucks.

No, he's awesome. Should have gotten a 14th chance, tbh. We wouldn't be in this godawful Caron Butler mess if cooler heads had prevailed a week before the trade deadline.

[Findog]

Well if it means you're going to waffle and now say it would be great to still have Caron on the team, then I supposed it's just par for the course.

That thread title is based on the assumption that Caron Butler can be a #2 option for a contending team. He can't.

[badfish22]

Josh was on 103.3 espn today. When asked about a return to Dallas, he said "anythings possible"

I lost conciseness for a sec and almost crashed.

[Phillip]

Here's your stat:

Butler - 11% turnover rate with a 23% usage rate
Howard - 10% turnover rate with a 25% usage rate

Facts are facts: Howard took better care of the ball than Butler does. He turned it over less while handling the ball more. So Josh "doing shit like that all the fucking time" occurred less than Butler turning it over even though he was trying his hardest and having his head screwed on straight. I'd rather have Butler, but the upgrade he has provided over Howard has been marginal at best.

Misleading stats. Howard has been with the team since 2003. Butler has been here for a couple months. Completely unfair "factual" comparison.

[Phillip]

It's really unfortunate that Howard didn't have a better attitude, because he is clearly more talented and gifted than Butler. If the Mavs had the 2005-2007 version of Howard, Mavs would be in the Spurs position instead (3-1)

[Findog]

Misleading stats. Howard has been with the team since 2003. Butler has been here for a couple months. Completely unfair "factual" comparison.

So Butler needs a training camp under his belt before you'll accept any criticism of his game?

[monosylab1k]

So Butler needs a training camp under his belt before you'll accept any criticism of his game?

Criticizing his game is one thing. Claiming he needs to be dumped after 20 games and one bad series is ridiculous. Especially considering how long you stuck behind Josh Howard.

[monosylab1k]

Josh was on 103.3 espn today. When asked about a return to Dallas, he said "anythings possible"

I lost conciseness for a sec and almost crashed.

He must not be getting the same discounts from his dealers in DC.

[Phillip]

So Butler needs a training camp under his belt before you'll accept any criticism of his game?

Actually I'm quite willing to be critical of his game, and even though it was dumb to sit him for an entire second half of game 3, he was playing like a complete load of elephant ass already and deserved it too. I'm just saying that before saying we should just get rid of him, he needs at least a fair chance to get integrated into the system. Same for Haywood (who has REALLY pissed me off). He played 10x better at Washington, then comes here and suddenly looks lost and is letting Dampier take the starting spot. Truth is, they both need time to fit in.

Butler has his flaws, but at least he truly seems dedicated and to be trying to help this team succeed, whereas with Howard, no one had a clue what the hell was going through his head all season (or the past couple years actually)

[monosylab1k]

Caron Butler plays terrible and he's gotta go. Get rid of this guy Cuban.

Josh Howard plays terrible and there's no way you trade him for Gerald Wallace cuz that's a lateral move.

[Findog]

Criticizing his game is one thing. Claiming he needs to be dumped after 20 games and one bad series is ridiculous. Especially considering how long you stuck behind Josh Howard.

Huh?

My bottom line is this: The Mavs need to look elsewhere for a #2 option because he is not currently on this roster. I think it will take Roddy another 1-2 years to get to that point. That's time the Mavs don't have. And by all means the Mavs should be aggressive in seeing what they can get for Butler's expiring contract.

This is not because I dislike Butler or don't think he's been given a chance. I simply don't see him as that much better than what he's shown, and that's a #3 option. I don't want the Mavs doing diddly shit this summer and then having Donnie spout off at the beginning of November stuff like "Well, Caron's gotten a full training camp with Kidd and he can be that second All Star to play alongside Dirk..." etc.

[Phillip]

My bottom line is this: The Mavs need to look elsewhere for a #2 option because he is not currently on this roster. I think it will take Roddy another 1-2 years to get to that point. That's time the Mavs don't have. And by all means the Mavs should be aggressive in seeing what they can get for Butler's expiring contract.

I agree. Honestly, while I think D-Wade would be the best guy to go after, if there's any shot at Bosh, they should really go for it. I think that Beaubois has the potential to be > Tony Parker, and if he reaches something close to that, could you imagine a duo of Beaubois and Bosh? Pretty damn lethal duo to build around. Both of them are very versatile offensive players, in that Beaubois can attack like Parker, but can also shoot jumpers (the 3 in particular) incredibly well too, and Bosh has a jumper to go with his inside game as well. Plenty of aggression and athleticism between the two also. Roddy is also getting to learn how to be a true floor general from Kidd, and throughout the season, his passing and patience has clearly improved already. He is definitely capable of running an offense, although his abilities are definitely better suited for him to be a scorer.

[Ghazi]

Iguodala :)

[monosylab1k]

Monta Ellis

[mavsfan1000]

Butler should be the backup 3. I've said this for awhile now. Marion is the better 3 and we need a good shooting guard that plays intense defense. (Not Barea or Terry) Also we need Beaubois to take over the starting point guard position. We need a coach that is younger so he isn't so biased against the young players.

[Phillip]

Iguodala :)

there are better guys to go after. but if they cant get anything else, he wouldn't be a terrible addition. but they probably wanna get rid of brand with him.

[Findog]

Josh Howard plays terrible and there's no way you trade him for Gerald Wallace cuz that's a lateral move.

Was Gerald Wallace ever made available in a trade? When was he on the trading block? Because there's no way from the summer of 2008 to the present that the Bobcats would've agreed to that deal, and preceding the trade deadline of 2008 when Josh was playing the best ball of his career, nobody in their right mind would trade Josh for Wallace. Howard was the better player until the spring of 2008. Why would you trade Player A for Player B when Player A is playing the better of the two? I wish everybody had 20/20 foresight like mono apparently has.

Here's some other hot sports opinions and trenchant wisdom from mono:

- The Mavs should've never drafted Roy Tarpley because he snorted away his chances at being a great player

- The Pistons should've taken either Carmelo Anthony or Dwyane Wade over Darko

- The Sixers shouldn't have given Elton Brand that contract even though at the time they needed a post presence

- The Clippers shouldn't have hired Mike Dunleavy at then stuck by him year after year when he was clear he didn't know what he was doing

- Perhaps the Celtics should've targeted Antonio McDyess with their MLE this year instead of Rasheed Wallace.

[Findog]

Monta Ellis

Volume chucker who plays no D and the Warriors play better and are more efficient on offense without him. One of the most overrated players in the league. I'd rather give Roddy 25-30 mpg next year.

[Phillip]

Butler should be the backup 3. I've said this for awhile now. Marion is the better 3 and we need a good shooting guard that plays intense defense. (Not Barea or Terry) Also we need Beaubois to take over the starting point guard position. We need a coach that is younger so he isn't so biased against the young players.

I agree, I think Butler might be a better guy to have off the bench, and start Beaubois at the 2. That way we have more bench scoring and size when Dirk goes out.

[Phillip]

Volume chucker who plays no D and the Warriors play better and are more efficient on offense without him. One of the most overrated players in the league. I'd rather give Roddy 25-30 mpg next year.

I'd agree. I'm not an Ellis fan at all. But perhaps being in a better system with better surrounding players would help him become more efficient, the way it helped Jamal Crawford this year, who also was spoken of in the same way as Ellis.

[monosylab1k]

Was Gerald Wallace ever made available in a trade? When was he on the trading block?

Pretending like you don't know the answer to that question is laughable. The first thing Larry Brown tried to do when he got the job was trade Gerald Wallace. They didn't find a deal so they stuck with him.

http://dimemag.com/2008/11/breaking-news-bobcats-to-trade-gerald-wallace/

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/55289/20081107/gerald_wallace_to_be_traded/

http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/the_sporting_blog/entry/view/14891/bobcats_are_ready_to_panic,_trade_gerald_wallace_t o_teams_great_detriment

http://ballhype.com/story/bobcats_shopping_gerald_wallace/

[monosylab1k]

yeah it always sucks to have a guy on the team who is lightning quick, strong, and will attack the basket :rolleyes

Even if he sucks at defense, how does that make him worse than Terry or Barea or Kidd?

[Phillip]

yeah it always sucks to have a guy on the team who is lightning quick, strong, and will attack the basket :rolleyes

not saying that it sucks. just that there are perhaps better players to pursue first, and try developing Roddy to be the Mavs star guard instead, and try finding a forward or center. although I'd rather have Ellis over Iggy.

[Findog]

yeah it always sucks to have a guy on the team who is lightning quick, strong, and will attack the basket

Because he's a ballhog and doesn't score efficiently.


Even if he sucks at defense, how does that make him worse than Terry or Barea or Kidd?

Maybe you haven't read my posts, but I'm not exactly enamored with our current guard rotation.

[monosylab1k]

Because he's a ballhog and doesn't score efficiently.

Yeah, in a system where he's allowed to do whatever he wants. How about 2 years ago when Baron Davis was running the show? Wanna look up his efficiency stats then?

Oh, right, Baron Davis sucks too :rolleyes

[Findog]

Pretending like you don't know the answer to that question is laughable. The first thing Larry Brown tried to do when he got the job was trade Gerald Wallace. They didn't find a deal so they stuck with him.

http://dimemag.com/2008/11/breaking-news-bobcats-to-trade-gerald-wallace/




http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/55289/20081107/gerald_wallace_to_be_traded/

http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/the_sporting_blog/entry/view/14891/bobcats_are_ready_to_panic,_trade_gerald_wallace_t o_teams_great_detriment

http://ballhype.com/story/bobcats_shopping_gerald_wallace/

November 2008: Tell me why I want Gerald Wallace over Josh Howard. Tell me how anybody could've predicted Howard would melt down in a melange of injuries and attitude problems. Point me to the Spurstalk archives from November 2008 where you accurately predicted Howard would become an injury-prone headcase, when at the time he was playing the best ball of his career. Thanks.

[Findog]

Yeah, in a system where he's allowed to do whatever he wants. How about 2 years ago when Baron Davis was running the show? Wanna look up his efficiency stats then?

Oh, right, Baron Davis sucks too :rolleyes

Yeah, Baron Davis is a guy you can build around. Which is why the Warriors bent over backwards to resign him and why the Clippers hang up the phone whenever other teams call up and inquire about his availability. :lol

[Findog]

Yeah, in a system where he's allowed to do whatever he wants. How about 2 years ago when Baron Davis was running the show? Wanna look up his efficiency stats then?



Why do the Warriors score better and more efficiently when Ellis doesn't play?

[monosylab1k]

November 2008: Tell me why I want Gerald Wallace over Josh Howard. Tell me how anybody could've predicted Howard would melt down in a melange of injuries and attitude problems. Point me to the Spurstalk archives from November 2008 where you accurately predicted Howard would become an injury-prone headcase, when at the time he was playing the best ball of his career. Thanks.

WHAT

THE

FUCK

Best ball of his career?

You mean November of 2008 right after April of 2008 when the Mavs were getting ass raped by the Hornets and Josh was smoking weed, planning parties, and not doing jack shit on the court?

[ElNono]

So none of you guys think Cubes is going to blow up this team if shit hits the fan in the next 3 games?

[ElNono]

WHAT

THE

FUCK

Best ball of his career?

You mean November of 2008 right after April of 2008 when the Mavs were getting ass raped by the Hornets and Josh was smoking weed, planning parties, and not doing jack shit on the court?

Don't forget:

Opo2rPF_Fg4

LOL... Josh was dope indeed... :lol

[monosylab1k]

Hold on, maybe I just went completely insane and got dates wrong, but let me check.....

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200804190NOH.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200804220NOH.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200804250DAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200804270DAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200804290NOH.html

....yeah, all 5 of these games happened before November 2008....

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/nba-news-and-rumors/articles/76237-avery-johnson-infuriated-by-josh-howards-party

....yeah, this happened before November 2008....

http://ballhype.com/video/josh_howard_admits_to_smoking_marijuana_in_offseas on/

....this too.

just checking.

[SpursRulez4eVeR]

Don't forget:

Opo2rPF_Fg4

LOL... Josh was dope indeed... :lol

:lmao the fk?

[badfish22]

:lmao the fk?
:lol
How have you never seen this?

[mavsfan1000]

I agree, I think Butler might be a better guy to have off the bench, and start Beaubois at the 2. That way we have more bench scoring and size when Dirk goes out.
If we get a legit 2 guard, (like Joe Johnson) I would go with Roddy at the point. He'll have another summer to improve that part of his game. Kidd is looking old. Maybe he can still get 20 MPG's but not much more.

[badfish22]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYsezIQ7yU4

[Findog]

WHAT

THE

FUCK

Best ball of his career?

You mean November of 2008 right after April of 2008 when the Mavs were getting ass raped by the Hornets and Josh was smoking weed, planning parties, and not doing jack shit on the court?

Sorry, I was thinking of November 2007. Got my timeline mixed up - I was thinking of the season right after Golden State when Josh was playing great and there were retarded "Whose team is it? Josh or Dirk?" arguments cropping up.

But November 2008 - I'll refer you to what I already said:


Because there's no way from the summer of 2008 to the present that the Bobcats would've agreed to that deal

Why do the Bobcats trade Gerald Wallace for an injury-prone headcase that checked out on his team during a playoff series? I'm not sure you understand how trades work - two parties have to come to a mutual agreement. How is Josh supposed to get traded for Gerald Wallace in November 2008? Why does Charlotte do that deal?

[Findog]

Hold on, maybe I just went completely insane and got dates wrong, but let me check.....

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200804190NOH.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200804220NOH.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200804250DAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200804270DAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200804290NOH.html

....yeah, all 5 of these games happened before November 2008....

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/nba-news-and-rumors/articles/76237-avery-johnson-infuriated-by-josh-howards-party

....yeah, this happened before November 2008....

http://ballhype.com/video/josh_howard_admits_to_smoking_marijuana_in_offseas on/

....this too.

just checking.

You wasted an awful lot of keystrokes because I initially got my chronology mixed up and thought November 2008 referred to the first season after the Warriors series.

I'll just ask again: how are the Mavs supposed to send an injury-prone headcase that mentally checked out on his team during a playoff series to Charlotte for Gerald Wallace? Why do the Bobcats agree to that deal? If you're ever lucky enough to become an NBA GM, you'll find out the hard way that you can't call up the Hawks and say "I'm trading you JJ Barea for Joe Johnson and there's nothing you can do about it."

[Findog]

Also, this:


Wallace suffered a Grade 3 concussion on February 23, 2008 after taking an unintentional elbow to the face from Sacramento's Mikki Moore.[2] It was his fourth concussion in as many seasons with the Bobcats.[2] It was not clear when he would return,[2] although Grade 3 concussions are defined by the American Association of Neurological Surgeons as ones that "involve post-traumatic amnesia for more than 24 hours or unconsciousness for more than five minutes. Players who sustain this grade of brain injury should be sidelined for at least one month, after which they can return to play if they are asymptomatic for one week."[3]

I remember at the time that there was concern Wallace would have to retire. So on one side you had a guy who had tanked his trade value. And on the other hand, you had a guy who was playing better, but there were serious injury concerns about the number of concussions he'd suffered and about the long-term viability of him being able to continue his career. It's not a surprise that this deal didn't get done for either side.

[Rogue]

lol everyone talked about how butler was such a huge upgrade..the only "upgrade" part of that deal was Haywood, who we barely even play. go figure.
then it's still more or less an UPGRADE? not a lateral move...

[Rogue]

Unfortunately for Butler, he has had to play out of position here in Dallas. Funny how both Butler and JHo struggled this season by having to play SG. I put more of the blame on the front office and coaching staff for thinking these guys can play out of position
Ironically they have an inveterate SG in the turtle figure of Jason Terry but Carlisle sticks to playing him off the benching, without giving a try of playing Butler or Marion this way.

[Rogue]

Okay fine, you're right Mr. "Spurs in 6 is the most pessimistic, overly cynical prediction". Let's ship Caron Butler the fuck out of town. Sign Josh back after the season's over. Watch the whole team crumble, watch Dirk quit on the team halfway through the season again, watch another scramble for another midseason trade. Have fun!
IIRC you seemed to have the hottest fever on Butler/Haywood's arrival, and now it's also the same retard who holds the biggest pessimism when the truth appears to your eyesight that it was just another lateral move to swap Josh/Gooden/craps for Butler/Haywood.

[Rogue]

http://retiary.org/idea/idea7/idea_7/denisbk/wright-brothers.jpg

[Findog]

Caron Butler OWNING tonight.

[sribb43]

Caron Butler OWNING tonight.

Looks like he is OWNING u tonight as well

[Findog]

Looks like he is OWNING u tonight as well

Yeah he is :lol

Now if he played like this all the time I'd have never started this thread. He can own me all the way to a series victory.

[Findog]

On Thursday I'm going to make a thread about how Rick Carlisle is a fucking dumbass who can't coach his way out of a paperbag and Cuban needs to fire him pronto

[MavDynasty]

lol findawg jinx

[MavDynasty]

He can own me all the way to a series victory.

:lmao

[MavDynasty]

Damn Dampier still riding the pine

[mavsfan1000]

Damn Dampier still riding the pine
Carlisle all about discipline. It's quite annoying.

[Findog]

Damp has been garbage this series.