Could it happen here?

[panic giraffe]

How would you feel about a law similar to what was signed in Arizona coming to Texas?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6978757.html

it's already in the works....

[hope4dopes]

Cool.

[rjv]

it is but it is unlikely it passes. and certainly texas will want to see how this plays out in the courts in arizona first.

[rjv]

also, texas has a more positive impact from illegals than arizona does. even perry will probably not back such a bill too much, if at all.

[panic giraffe]

Cool.

so when is the next klan meeting?

[hope4dopes]

[QUOTE=panic giraffe;4292663]so when is the next klan meeting?[/QUOTE That's it .....

[panic giraffe]

? i'm sorry, i don't read bad code.

but i thought all you teabagger types were for civil liberties? where are the libertarians calling out against this bill and the possible infringement of native born american rights that this thing will bring about?

until they do that, i'll just go on with the assumption they're just a bunch of racists.

[hope4dopes]

Yeah 20 million forgien nationals invade your nation. drive down the wages and living conditions of the poorest citizens, flood the public educations system, soak up the saftey net of social programs,fill the prisons, march for amnesty under the red flag of international socialisim.......and you and this regime are worried about the illegal's civil rights..I can only assume your an Obamanation.

[panic giraffe]

Yeah 20 million forgien nationals invade your nation. drive down the wages and living conditions of the poorest citizens, flood the public educations system, soak up the saftey net of social programs,fill the prisons, march for amnesty under the red flag of international socialisim.......and you and this regime are worried about the illegal's civil rights..I can only assume your an Obamanation.

I don't know what level of education you have, but I for one, have never had my employment challenged by an undocumented immigrant. if you are a native born american and you mow lawns, pick strawberries, or clean houses etc, for a living then you have bigger issues to battle than the immigration issue.

as far as welfare, it's impossible to get without a social security card or eisn. if you want to prove me wrong go down to a HHS office and try under a assumed name, if you succeed i will retract that statement. we do give anyone insured or not, emergency care, would you rather hospitals ask for your hmo while you were in a coma and just let you die?

as far as prisons, i had a ex who's dad was a drug runner, he was here legally, as soon as he was busted, he was deported and had to serve his time in a mexican prison. if we do that to legal, documented immigrants i can't imagine how we don't do that for illegal ones.

illegals are great. not only are they the backbone of our service/manufacturing industries, but they pay taxes that they will never see a dime back from. the contribute to our social security ponzi scheme, pay gas tax, property taxes, pretty much every tax besides income tax, can't get a refund. generally speaking have children that work harder at education then the average citizen. i just can't see any downside to them, they're just chasing the american dream like the waves of immigrants before them.

no, actually i'm worried about my own civil rights. i'm brown. will i be asked to produce a passport and social security card every time i get pulled over or will my drivers license suffice? will i be pulled over more often at the assumption that i am illegal? my family never crossed the american border except to go for war for this country (and at one point against, but that's how we got here), so why should i have to deal with added interrogation when ever i see a police officer just because some peon redneck lost a roofing contract to a more skilled immigrant?

[Duff McCartney]

drive down the wages

Is that wrong? I'm sorry but we live in a capitalist economy where profits are more important than wages. If I can make more money by paying an illegal 10 cents an hour than paying a good old American 10 dollars an hour so I can reep higher profits, then damn it it's my right and duty as an American who loves capitalism to do it.

[hope4dopes]

Is that wrong? I'm sorry but we live in a capitalist economy where profits are more important than wages. If I can make more money by paying an illegal 10 cents an hour than paying a good old American 10 dollars an hour so I can reep higher profits, then damn it it's my right and duty as an American who loves capitalism to do it.

As long as you do it within the parameters of the law.

[hope4dopes]

I don't know what level of education you have, but I for one, have never had my employment challenged by an undocumented immigrant. if you are a native born american and you mow lawns, pick strawberries, or clean houses etc, for a living then you have bigger issues to battle than the immigration issue.

as far as welfare, it's impossible to get without a social security card or eisn. if you want to prove me wrong go down to a HHS office and try under a assumed name, if you succeed i will retract that statement. we do give anyone insured or not, emergency care, would you rather hospitals ask for your hmo while you were in a coma and just let you die?

as far as prisons, i had a ex who's dad was a drug runner, he was here legally, as soon as he was busted, he was deported and had to serve his time in a mexican prison. if we do that to legal, documented immigrants i can't imagine how we don't do that for illegal ones.

illegals are great. not only are they the backbone of our service/manufacturing industries, but they pay taxes that they will never see a dime back from. the contribute to our social security ponzi scheme, pay gas tax, property taxes, pretty much every tax besides income tax, can't get a refund. generally speaking have children that work harder at education then the average citizen. i just can't see any downside to them, they're just chasing the american dream like the waves of immigrants before them.

no, actually i'm worried about my own civil rights. i'm brown. will i be asked to produce a passport and social security card every time i get pulled over or will my drivers license suffice? will i be pulled over more often at the assumption that i am illegal? my family never crossed the american border except to go for war for this country (and at one point against, but that's how we got here), so why should i have to deal with added interrogation when ever i see a police officer just because some peon redneck lost a roofing contract to a more skilled immigrant?

For godsakes I can't believe someone with such a pedestrian education would brag about it. Yeah I think you pretty much exemplify the La Mecha party lies, it's up to the nation to decide if we want another 20 million assholes like you.
I guess all those poor americans of all colors just deserve what they get.

[panic giraffe]

For godsakes I can't believe someone with such a pedestrian education would brag about it. Yeah I think you pretty much exemplify the La Mecha party lies, it's up to the nation to decide if we want another 20 million assholes like you.
I guess all those poor americans of all colors just deserve what they get.

my god man how many times do i have to tell you...its just fucking MEChA, drop the la, it makes you look uneducated.

[panic giraffe]

and honestly you feel like it's okay for the government of certain states to infringe on the rights of its citizens for the sole purpose of tracking down a few people who came her illegally.

[panic giraffe]

... it's up to the nation to decide if we want another 20 million assholes like you...

but i'm not illegal. you're probably a few more generations removed from being a border jumper than i am.

way to let your racism show.

[Duff McCartney]

As long as you do it within the parameters of the law.

Oh..isn't that convenient? So now we're placing limits on capitalism?

[hope4dopes]

and honestly you feel like it's okay for the government of certain states to infringe on the rights of its citizens for the sole purpose of tracking down a few people who came her illegally.

20 million illegals is not a few people it's close to the population of the entire nation of italy.

[hope4dopes]

my god man how many times do i have to tell you...its just fucking MEChA, drop the la, it makes you look uneducated.
using expressions like "my god man" makes you look like a semiliterate posturing buffoon emulating some 19th century english novel, you know like a babu. I like using La Mecha cause he gets you so riled up.

[hope4dopes]

but i'm not illegal. you're probably a few more generations removed from being a border jumper than i am.

way to let your racism show. Yeah dude, really you can call me a racist all day, but it doesn't matter a pile of beans to me but hey knock yourself out.
What I meant by assholes like you is the whole La Mecha motto of "for those of the race everything, for those outside the race nothing" I'm sure you're aware of their motto, I mean even the council of La Raza was so embarassed be La Mecha's blatant racist overtones that they offically distantsed themselves.

[hope4dopes]

Oh..isn't that convenient? So now we're placing limits on capitalism? Aren't you supposed to be in class, they're just about to pass out the milk and cookies.

[admiralsnackbar]

the whole La Mecha motto of "for those of the race everything, for those outside the race nothing"

You translate "La union haze la fuerza?" to "for those of the race everything, for those outside the race nothing?"

Unless I missed something, you probably shouldn't diss Panic's education.

[Winehole23]

using expressions like "my god man" makes you look like a semiliterate posturing buffoon emulating some 19th century english novelReminds me of your own semiliterate posturing familiarity with Charles Dickens in these pages, in which you were the butt of the joke:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3797316&postcount=60

[Winehole23]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138288&highlight=estella+havisham&page=3

[spursncowboys]

so when is the next klan meeting?

we have a winner.

[spursncowboys]

I don't know what level of education you have, but I for one, have never had my employment challenged by an undocumented immigrant.

Are you saying it doesn't happen because you never have seen it? I had a friend who's dad mowed yards and made a good living. He was definitely pushed out because he couldn't compete with the low wages people were offering.

[spursncowboys]

and honestly you feel like it's okay for the government of certain states to infringe on the rights of its citizens for the sole purpose of tracking down a few people who came her illegally.

illegals are not citizens

[spursncowboys]

Oh..isn't that convenient? So now we're placing limits on capitalism?

So you are against unions and cartels?

[spursncowboys]

calling someone who you disagree with racist just devalues the true meaning of that word.

[panic giraffe]

illegals are not citizens

I was referring to myself. are you calling me illegal just because i'm brown?

[panic giraffe]

calling someone who you disagree with racist just devalues the true meaning of that word.

calling a native born american, former soldier, an illegal based solely on the color of his skin is racist, wouldn't you agree?

[panic giraffe]

Are you saying it doesn't happen because you never have seen it? I had a friend who's dad mowed yards and made a good living. He was definitely pushed out because he couldn't compete with the low wages people were offering.

he should have made a better product, or sold his customer on his service and English speaking ability. If he had some american ingenuity he would remain competitive and would have grew his business using those same hard working illegals.

what i was stabbing at was how if your skills set isn't even competitive with someone who can effectively communicate to the majority of the population, then you have bigger problems (like finding a new skill set or trade) than the issue of immigration.

[hope4dopes]

he should have made a better product, or sold his customer on his service and English speaking ability. If he had some american ingenuity he would remain competitive and would have grew his business using those same hard working illegals.

what i was stabbing at was how if your skills set isn't even competitive with someone who can effectively communicate to the majority of the population, then you have bigger problems (like finding a new skill set or trade) than the issue of immigration.

There are over 1 billion people on this planet that make less than a dollar a day.None of them live in latin america.How's about we take oil tankers over to say India and empty it's ghettos, I could find harder, cheaper, labor who'd speak english faster than any mexican in the U.S. hell I could sneak them into Mexico and undercut Mexicans in Mexico, but of course that'd be illegal.
Your asinine idea that the poor have no one to blame but themselves for greedy assholes breaking the laws and hiring illegals, thus driving wages and conditions for all workers down, reminds me of the shortsighted and pig ignorant attitudes that prevade and exemplify Latin America.

[spursncowboys]

calling a native born american, former soldier, an illegal based solely on the color of his skin is racist, wouldn't you agree?
yeah.

[hope4dopes]

Reminds me of your own semiliterate posturing familiarity with Charles Dickens in these pages, in which you were the butt of the joke:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3797316&postcount=60 Ahh precious.Are you once again courageously standing up for the manufactured consent of the time, wrapping yourself in the New Yorker and NPR hoping you can pass for intelligent.

[spursncowboys]

he should have made a better product, or sold his customer on his service and English speaking ability. If he had some american ingenuity he would remain competitive and would have grew his business using those same hard working illegals.his ethics wouldn't allow him to. I gave you one sentence of how illegal immigration impacted his family directly, and you put him in a little bubble where you can give him some absurd advice. Why are you even assuming he spoke english? douchebag. I try not to namecall here, but this is ridiculous. Anyone who agrees with this law is racist? Your ridunculous assumptions. Get off your high horse. Clinton/Bush/Obama should have done something on a national level. They should have some form of security for the citizens of this state that made the law, which is backed by 70% of their population.


what i was stabbing at was how if your skills set isn't even competitive with someone who can effectively communicate to the majority of the population, then you have bigger problems (like finding a new skill set or trade) than the issue of immigration.same could be said by all the jobs going over seas. Are you ok with all the jobs going elsewhere because the skills aren't good enough?

[Duff McCartney]

So you are against unions and cartels?

Unions are socialist and communist.

[Duff McCartney]

illegals are not citizens

No one is saying they are dumbass. The arguement against the entire immigration law that passed in Arizona is the constitutionality of pulling people over who simply "look" illegal.

What does an illegal immigrant look like? The law in Arizona makes reference that the cops should have reasonable suspicion, well what does that even mean?

panic giraffe and myself are both brown skin very ethnic looking mexicans I'm assuming. Are we going to be pulled over and asked for proof of residency? I would object very strongly to anyone who asks me for it. I'm sure that's very unconstitutional.

[spursncowboys]

Unions are socialist and communist.
it's artificial control of the free market. What are you talking about?

[spursncowboys]

me
illegals are not citizens


are you calling me illegal just because i'm brown?
what?

[jacobdrj]

I don't know what level of education you have, but I for one, have never had my employment challenged by an undocumented immigrant. if you are a native born american and you mow lawns, pick strawberries, or clean houses etc, for a living then you have bigger issues to battle than the immigration issue.

as far as welfare, it's impossible to get without a social security card or eisn. if you want to prove me wrong go down to a HHS office and try under a assumed name, if you succeed i will retract that statement. we do give anyone insured or not, emergency care, would you rather hospitals ask for your hmo while you were in a coma and just let you die?

as far as prisons, i had a ex who's dad was a drug runner, he was here legally, as soon as he was busted, he was deported and had to serve his time in a mexican prison. if we do that to legal, documented immigrants i can't imagine how we don't do that for illegal ones.

illegals are great. not only are they the backbone of our service/manufacturing industries, but they pay taxes that they will never see a dime back from. the contribute to our social security ponzi scheme, pay gas tax, property taxes, pretty much every tax besides income tax, can't get a refund. generally speaking have children that work harder at education then the average citizen. i just can't see any downside to them, they're just chasing the american dream like the waves of immigrants before them.

no, actually i'm worried about my own civil rights. i'm brown. will i be asked to produce a passport and social security card every time i get pulled over or will my drivers license suffice? will i be pulled over more often at the assumption that i am illegal? my family never crossed the american border except to go for war for this country (and at one point against, but that's how we got here), so why should i have to deal with added interrogation when ever i see a police officer just because some peon redneck lost a roofing contract to a more skilled immigrant?

Yours is the most compelling argument so far that I have heard against immigration reform.

But why have immigration laws at all, by your reasoning?

My father was an immigrant. It took years of service and sacrifice to the US to gain citizenship, which he is quite proud of. It does bother him that he is in a position where he is under more of a microscope from organizations like the IRS than his illegal counterparts. Not to mention the fact that there is a bit of a conflict of interested in having people working in a place they have no interest in living in or supporting.

I am with Maddox, I think there isn't a problem as long as the workers are paying taxes.

[Duff McCartney]

it's artificial control of the free market. What are you talking about?

Artificial control of the free market? What the fuck are you talking about? Explain how a union, that demands higher wages and will threaten with strikes is "artificially" controlling the free market?

[hope4dopes]

Artificial control of the free market? What the fuck are you talking about? Explain how a union, that demands higher wages and will threaten with strikes is "artificially" controlling the free market?

I find it laughable that on one hand you support unions, and on the other hand you support the explotation of labor laws, and the ruling classes rape of the workers, just because it's wrapped in a mexican flag.

[panic giraffe]

No one is saying they are dumbass. The arguement against the entire immigration law that passed in Arizona is the constitutionality of pulling people over who simply "look" illegal.

What does an illegal immigrant look like? The law in Arizona makes reference that the cops should have reasonable suspicion, well what does that even mean?

panic giraffe and myself are both brown skin very ethnic looking mexicans I'm assuming. Are we going to be pulled over and asked for proof of residency? I would object very strongly to anyone who asks me for it. I'm sure that's very unconstitutional.

ding ding ding we have a winner here folks!!!
what surprises me is that all these "keep govt out of my healthcare" types are all for "paper's please"...

[Duff McCartney]

I find it laughable that on one hand you support unions, and on the other hand you support the explotation of labor laws, and the ruling classes rape of the workers, just because it's wrapped in a mexican flag.

Where in my two posts calling unions socialists and communists, and then asking for clarification on how they are "artificially" controlling the market with their tactics, is there a clear support for Unions?

Have you not learned anything? I'm an American, and as such, I care only for capitalism and profits.

[panic giraffe]

what?

that was addressed to hope4dopes, micca or whathaveyou saying "if the american people want 20 million more of you..." like i was an illegal alien.

to which i rightfully called him racist just because he would assume that since i'm of mexican decent and i'm brown that i'm just like 20 million illegal aliens.

[hope4dopes]

ding ding ding we have a winner here folks!!!
what surprises me is that all these "keep govt out of my healthcare" types are all for "paper's please"...
Well unlike health care....... one of the only jobs of the federal goverment is to protect the borders, which they haven't done.

[panic giraffe]

Yours is the most compelling argument so far that I have heard against immigration reform.

But why have immigration laws at all, by your reasoning?

My father was an immigrant. It took years of service and sacrifice to the US to gain citizenship, which he is quite proud of. It does bother him that he is in a position where he is under more of a microscope from organizations like the IRS than his illegal counterparts. Not to mention the fact that there is a bit of a conflict of interested in having people working in a place they have no interest in living in or supporting.

I am with Maddox, I think there isn't a problem as long as the workers are paying taxes.

actually i'm all for a new way of thinking about citizenship. i'm all for a complete open border, with universal healthcare, free education, social security, basically any service that would lead to MH's post earlier of FDR's 2nd bill of rights....but there's a catch...

minimum two years of service to the country to attain the status of citizen.
if you don't serve, then you're just a tax payer. no vote. nothing. lets see how soon we rush to war when it involves everyone....but that's just a weird fantasy. til then i'm all for a better work visa program.

[Duff McCartney]

actually i'm all for a new way of thinking about citizenship. i'm all for a complete open border, with universal healthcare, free education, social security, basically any service that would lead to MH's post earlier of FDR's 2nd bill of rights....but there's a catch...

minimum two years of service to the country to attain the status of citizen.
if you don't serve, then you're just a tax payer. no vote. nothing. lets see how soon we rush to war when it involves everyone....but that's just a weird fantasy. til then i'm all for a better work visa program.

Communist.

[panic giraffe]

Communist.

not at all.

all for a free market.

a true free market, the govt should have no say in what i want to buy(food, drinks, liquor, drugs, who cares its my choice), but the ability to tax it as it sees fit based on consumption.


edit note:fuck i wasted post 666 on this shit. damn this thread.

[word]

We should have the EXACT same immigration policies as Mexico.

[Yonivore]

We should have the EXACT same immigration policies as Mexico.
Agreed.

[Nbadan]

Your an idiot...the Mexican laws are tough to attempt keep South American immigrants from migrating to America in mass...nobody migrates to Mexico..

[Yonivore]

Your an idiot...the Mexican laws are tough to attempt keep South American immigrants from migrating to America in mass...nobody migrates to Mexico..
And, ours should be tough to attempt to keep Mexicans from migrating to America en mass.

I don't see the issue.

And, actually, you're wrong. Aside from border areas, Mexico is an attractive retirement destination for many Americans.

[Nbadan]

And, ours should be tough to attempt to keep Mexicans from migrating to America en mass.

I don't see the issue.

They are tough, but unenforceable...so what good are new laws going to do? For the Arizona taxpayer its gonna be billions...

[Nbadan]

And, actually, you're wrong. Aside from border areas, Mexico is an attractive retirement destination for many Americans.

Many rich Mexicans migrate to the U.S. to retire, so what?

[Yonivore]

Many rich Mexicans migrate to the U.S. to retire, so what?
And, both probably do so legally.

[Yonivore]

They are tough, but unenforceable...so what good are new laws going to do? For the Arizona taxpayer its gonna be billions...
I guess we'll see.

[Yonivore]

Your an idiot...the Mexican laws are tough to attempt keep South American immigrants from migrating to America in mass...nobody migrates to Mexico..
Yeah, except, not so much about keeping South Americans out of the United States...

Mexico acknowledges migrant abuse, pledges changes (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100429/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_mexico_migrants_1)


Central American migrants are frequently pulled off trains, kidnapped en masse, held at gang hideouts and forced to call relatives in the U.S. to pay off the kidnappers. Such kidnappings affect thousands of migrants each year in Mexico, the report says.

[jacobdrj]

actually i'm all for a new way of thinking about citizenship. i'm all for a complete open border, with universal healthcare, free education, social security, basically any service that would lead to MH's post earlier of FDR's 2nd bill of rights....but there's a catch...

minimum two years of service to the country to attain the status of citizen.
if you don't serve, then you're just a tax payer. no vote. nothing. lets see how soon we rush to war when it involves everyone....but that's just a weird fantasy. til then i'm all for a better work visa program.

So what you are proposing is basically the Israeli system. Their situation is a bit different (small country with a small population with a disproportionately large border with almost no natural resources surrounded on all sides by aggressive nations/peoples).

Let me posit some issues that may come up with your system:

A) With a volunteer army you may have a higher level of morale due to the fact that the people volunteered.

B) As far as getting out of service, politicians have always found a way to have themselves, as well as their families, either excluded from mandatory service or at least put in 'cushy' BS clerk jobs outside the real spheres of danger. I doubt many politicians would think any differently about the mandatory service as they would still be apart from it.

C) Just because everyone serves doesn't mean taxes will be less of an issue. Health care will still cost money, and for 2 years of every person's young adult life, they wouldn't even have the option of being a productive member of society to add value to the system, and be taxed, to be able to pay for a VA style health system (which from my parents' experience, is quite impressive and extensive).

D) You would likely get refuseniks, much like in Israel now and the US in the Vietnam era, and would have a huge part of the population thrown in jail for that.

E) The military is trying to downsize even while in the middle of 2 wars. What would a military of 90 million do?

[word]

Nonetheless, what is wrong with having the same policy as Mexico regarding immigration, foreign investment and entire host of other things ? Fact is, no one has as open of a country as the US yet ...if there is any talk of enforcing the law....the words Nazi and racist come up.

The issue of immigration, legal or otherwise, is unique along the southern border. Further, the changes to immigration law during the Johnson administration, allowing 'reunification' heavily favored Mexican immigrants because Europeans had long since cut ties to their European heritage. Most European Americans don't even KNOW any family in the old country even though they all HAVE family in the old country.

In the 1920's the last time there was a large scale reform in immigration policy, prior to the 60's, was decidedly...purposefully..ANTI Asian, to stem the tide of Chinese immigration.

But I"m not sure, if during any time in our history we've had a huge problem with illegal immigration like we have now simply because it's too hard to illegally immigrate across oceans.

Further, the immigration policies of the US have historically TRIED to have policy based on needs. Granted, there has always been a way for those seeking political asylum to get in, if they can prove their life is in danger, but what we're seeing here, to a degree is simply a government saying to a group of immigrants...you're not what we need. It's happened before. We let a ton of engineers in during the tech boom. It's not so easy to get in now and there are fewer HB1 visa's available for tech workers, and fewer people getting in in ALL areas.

The bottom line is, it's our country, and we have a right to say who gets in and in what numbers. The majority of people support that. Just follow the rules. We let plenty of people in taking the legal route.

[EmptyMan]

Wgaf what race you are.


If you are not American, GTFO. We can't even take care of our own problems caused by our own americants.

[NFGIII]

.


illegals are great. not only are they the backbone of our service/manufacturing industries, but they pay taxes that they will never see a dime back from. they contribute to our social security ponzi scheme, pay gas tax, property taxes, pretty much every tax besides income tax, can't get a refund. generally speaking have children that work harder at education then the average citizen. i just can't see any downside to them, they're just chasing the american dream like the waves of immigrants before them.

No they don't. They are illegal and therefore don't have a SS card. Their employer can't legally have them on the payroll to pay those taxes. They aren't on the books or if they are the employer, if audited, will be prosecuted or at least heavily fined. That's one of the main reasons illegals are so attractive to some business owners. They don't have to match the SS and medicare taxes. So if you take all the wages earned by illegals and tax it at 30% - 15 from them and 15 from the business - you will get an idea of the amount of monies missing from the US Treasury. Also those businesses that choose to hire illegals don't have to pay them health benefits if they don't want to.

I wont argue that illegals don't benefit our society but they are still non citizens with little stake in this country. They are here due to the fact that their own country can't establish a stable economy and therefore there is a lack of viable work. They are here to help provide for their families. That is an admirable goal but let's not forget that they are here illegally. Any country has the right to establish laws in order to protect their sovereinty, ilrespective of the goals and desires of the illegals, however honorable.




Further, the immigration policies of the US have historically TRIED to have policy based on needs. Granted, there has always been a way for those seeking political asylum to get in, if they can prove their life is in danger, but what we're seeing here, to a degree is simply a government saying to a group of immigrants...you're not what we need. It's happened before. We let a ton of engineers in during the tech boom. It's not so easy to get in now and there are fewer HB1 visa's available for tech workers, and fewer people getting in in ALL areas.

The bottom line is, it's our country, and we have a right to say who gets in and in what numbers. The majority of people support that. Just follow the rules. We let plenty of people in taking the legal route.


Agreed. This country should be able to determine who gets in or who doesn't. This isn't an issue based on race, creed or clolor but what type of individual this nation finds desirable to have as a citizen.

[Stringer_Bell]

Passing this law as a "cry for help" or "defiant stance" toward the Federal government until we can put the Senate and House and Administration officials before the American people to explain why "we are not ready" to discuss Immigration is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

The crime levels will stay the same, except the community won't be as helpful because they feel offended and less inclined to work with police. They could be right in that offense, they could be wrong to take offense - but it will happen and it will have an effect on normal citizens and Local Law Enforcement.

It won't happen here and if it did, you can bet your boy Stringer would be on top of that shit naming names and shaming them. Texas Reps. Leo Berman (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/26/leo-berman-texas-state-re_n_552239.html ) and Debbie Riddle are planning to introduce legistlation...these people talk so much shit but don't have the balls to go after the real problems.

[LnGrrrR]

Are you saying it doesn't happen because you never have seen it? I had a friend who's dad mowed yards and made a good living. He was definitely pushed out because he couldn't compete with the low wages people were offering.

That's called capitalism.

[LnGrrrR]

E) The military is trying to downsize even while in the middle of 2 wars. What would a military of 90 million do?

I will note that there is a program for citizenship for immigrants who join the military. I'm not familiar with the specifics, but serving a certain number of years allows you citizenship.

[LnGrrrR]

it's artificial control of the free market. What are you talking about?

How is it artificial? Unions go perfectly in line with capitalism, in theory. (Some laws protecting workers on strike throw it off a little bit.)

[panic giraffe]

So what you are proposing is basically the Israeli system. Their situation is a bit different (small country with a small population with a disproportionately large border with almost no natural resources surrounded on all sides by aggressive nations/peoples).

Let me posit some issues that may come up with your system:

A) With a volunteer army you may have a higher level of morale due to the fact that the people volunteered.

B) As far as getting out of service, politicians have always found a way to have themselves, as well as their families, either excluded from mandatory service or at least put in 'cushy' BS clerk jobs outside the real spheres of danger. I doubt many politicians would think any differently about the mandatory service as they would still be apart from it.

C) Just because everyone serves doesn't mean taxes will be less of an issue. Health care will still cost money, and for 2 years of every person's young adult life, they wouldn't even have the option of being a productive member of society to add value to the system, and be taxed, to be able to pay for a VA style health system (which from my parents' experience, is quite impressive and extensive).

D) You would likely get refuseniks, much like in Israel now and the US in the Vietnam era, and would have a huge part of the population thrown in jail for that.

E) The military is trying to downsize even while in the middle of 2 wars. What would a military of 90 million do?

not at all.

the isreali system is kind of a basis, but their system is mandatory.

what i purposed earlier is a system where its still 100% voluntary. you just don't have full on citizens rights unless you do it. no right to vote, your education ends at high school (unless you want to float it either yourself or through debt), no universal healthcare, no social security. you would be a 100% private person, however you would still be liable for things like property taxes, income tax, etc. so there would be no military of 90 million or overcrowded jails full of dodgers and the like. plus, i never said it had to be military service, i believe civil service is just as important, especially for those who cannot perform the function of military service, so for those municipalites that have a hard time filling in their police, emts, fireman, teachers, etc...

[panic giraffe]

No they don't. They are illegal and therefore don't have a SS card. Their employer can't legally have them on the payroll to pay those taxes. They aren't on the books or if they are the employer, if audited, will be prosecuted or at least heavily fined. That's one of the main reasons illegals are so attractive to some business owners. They don't have to match the SS and medicare taxes. So if you take all the wages earned by illegals and tax it at 30% - 15 from them and 15 from the business - you will get an idea of the amount of monies missing from the US Treasury. Also those businesses that choose to hire illegals don't have to pay them health benefits if they don't want to.


i made it pretty clear that they didn't pay income tax. i'm sorry that i forgot to mention payroll, which is kind of a 50/50 roll of the dice when it comes to illegal immigrants, some of them have stolen ssn or expired eisn, so they would still not only pay property tax, gas tax, sales tax, hotel tax, any other consumption based tax, but also pay into medicare/social security and will never see a dime back from that. i doubt they would get an income tax refund, because you would have to be pretty bold to try to get a refund with a illegal ssn. not only that but those businesses pay taxes on them as well. the rest still pay consumption based taxes, its not like you can walk into a store and say, "fuck your 8% i'm not a citizen so i'm not paying it"



I wont argue that illegals don't benefit our society but they are still non citizens with little stake in this country. They are here due to the fact that their own country can't establish a stable economy and therefore there is a lack of viable work. They are here to help provide for their families. That is an admirable goal but let's not forget that they are here illegally. Any country has the right to establish laws in order to protect their sovereinty, ilrespective of the goals and desires of the illegals, however honorable.

just an opinion. one that i think a country that is bases on ideals and immigration, not nationality should not and can not afford to keep.

[Duff McCartney]

There are over 1 billion people on this planet that make less than a dollar a day.None of them live in latin america.

I know dopes is a proper name for you because not only are you a dope, you spout bullshit that isn't even true.

According to the 2009 HDR this is the percentage of people who live in extreme poverty in Latin America...(less than $1.25/day)

Argentina...4.5%
Bolivia...19.6%
Brazil...5.2%
Colombia..16%
El Salvador...11%
Guatemala...11.7%
Honduras...18.2%

That's not even all the Latin American countries. Stop making baseless claims. I'd say alot of people that live off less than $1 a day live in Latin America.

[Duff McCartney]

what i purposed earlier is a system where its still 100% voluntary. you just don't have full on citizens rights unless you do it. no right to vote, your education ends at high school (unless you want to float it either yourself or through debt), no universal healthcare, no social security. you would be a 100% private person, however you would still be liable for things like property taxes, income tax, etc. so there would be no military of 90 million or overcrowded jails full of dodgers and the like. plus, i never said it had to be military service, i believe civil service is just as important, especially for those who cannot perform the function of military service, so for those municipalites that have a hard time filling in their police, emts, fireman, teachers, etc...

I know it's just a pipe dream, but that would never fly in the United States. The Constitution exists specifically to prevent things like taht from happening.

[panic giraffe]

i know it is, and never will happen here. it's just my long term dream solution to the immigration issue.

i do however believe that most of this country has the constitution wrong. it was never meant to be a bible or the 1297 version of the magna carta, it's a living fucking document. it's amendable to deal with the problems facing a changing nation. it's the will of the collective people of our nation and should not be seen as the ten commandments, if there is something in it we don't agree with or that needs changing we should not be afraid to do it, that would make our founding fathers happy.

[panic giraffe]

***fucking la migra made me doublepost***

[jacobdrj]

I will note that there is a program for citizenship for immigrants who join the military. I'm not familiar with the specifics, but serving a certain number of years allows you citizenship.

I am aware of that, as that is how my father got his citizenship.

[jacobdrj]

not at all.

the isreali system is kind of a basis, but their system is mandatory.

what i purposed earlier is a system where its still 100% voluntary. you just don't have full on citizens rights unless you do it. no right to vote, your education ends at high school (unless you want to float it either yourself or through debt), no universal healthcare, no social security. you would be a 100% private person, however you would still be liable for things like property taxes, income tax, etc. so there would be no military of 90 million or overcrowded jails full of dodgers and the like. plus, i never said it had to be military service, i believe civil service is just as important, especially for those who cannot perform the function of military service, so for those municipalites that have a hard time filling in their police, emts, fireman, teachers, etc...

True, even in Israel, some students as well as women do not have to serve. And I understand your distinction in that you are not compelled to joint the military except to have 'full' citizenship, where incentive is not compulsion.

I still feel that there is something that may overly militarize the country: would this eventually lead to 'haves' and 'have nots' in this system, should people be voted out of the right to join a service corps?

If it is voluntary, how will this address the issue of the politicians being separate from the citizens they deploy to war?

[word]

The union pretty much fought the civil war with German and Irish immigrants. About 30%. They'd have lost without 'em.

So, immigration has, historically, had a purpose.

Getting your lawn mowed cheap, ain't a good reason.

[panic giraffe]

True, even in Israel, some students as well as women do not have to serve. And I understand your distinction in that you are not compelled to joint the military except to have 'full' citizenship, where incentive is not compulsion.

I still feel that there is something that may overly militarize the country: would this eventually lead to 'haves' and 'have nots' in this system, should people be voted out of the right to join a service corps?

If it is voluntary, how will this address the issue of the politicians being separate from the citizens they deploy to war?

how would that system of haves and have-nots be any worse than the current one? except it would be based on experience/national pride and not money or color.

i don't know what you mean by voted out of the right to join. explain please?

politicians would all be experienced citizen-soldiers after one generations time, and the parents/grandparents of another generation of citizen-soldiers. it would be the opposite of mitt romney, or dick cheney, no more war mongering politicians who don't have a personal, not just financial, stake in the war. could you vote your own son or daughter to the battlefield unless you truly believed it was the right thing to do?

[word]

i know it is, and never will happen here. it's just my long term dream solution to the immigration issue.

i do however believe that most of this country has the constitution wrong. it was never meant to be a bible or the 1297 version of the magna carta, it's a living fucking document. it's amendable to deal with the problems facing a changing nation. it's the will of the collective people of our nation and should not be seen as the ten commandments, if there is something in it we don't agree with or that needs changing we should not be afraid to do it, that would make our founding fathers happy.

Clearly you are not aware of the process.

[word]

I know dopes is a proper name for you because not only are you a dope, you spout bullshit that isn't even true.

According to the 2009 HDR this is the percentage of people who live in extreme poverty in Latin America...(less than $1.25/day)

Argentina...4.5%
Bolivia...19.6%
Brazil...5.2%
Colombia..16%
El Salvador...11%
Guatemala...11.7%
Honduras...18.2%

That's not even all the Latin American countries. Stop making baseless claims. I'd say alot of people that live off less than $1 a day live in Latin America.

The purpose of US immigration is not to alleviate poverty in other countries.

[panic giraffe]

Clearly you are not aware of the process.

what do you mean?

it's not like i believe that one person can make these changes.

we control congress(to a degree), they decided what amendments go before a vote. its not like the constitution is written in stone, so what am i not aware of?

[word]

or a constitutional convention...

You appeared to be unaware there was a process to do this, implying the constitution could be amended on a 'whim'.

What in the Constitution do you desire to be changed ?

[panic giraffe]

nothing in particular at this time, it was in response to someone saying that the constitution was in place to keep ideas like mine from happening.

[panic giraffe]

back to the subject at hand, does anyone think AZSB1070 or something similar would happen in the great state of texas?

[LnGrrrR]

I am aware of that, as that is how my father got his citizenship.

Props to your father. :toast

[Winehole23]

back to the subject at hand, does anyone think AZSB1070 or something similar would happen in the great state of texas?No.

[spursncowboys]

from my understanding of this law. If someone is under police custody already, only then can police ask their citizenship. I don't see how that can be construed as racist.

[Winehole23]

from my understanding of this law. If someone is under police custody already, only then can police ask their citizenship. I don't see how that can be construed as racist.The way I read it (from the excerpt posted by Crooks upstream), no custody is necessary. Just "lawful contact".

[doobs]

The way I read it (from the excerpt posted by Crooks upstream), no custody is necessary. Just "lawful contact".

If police custody were a necessary precondition, then this law wouldn't be nearly so bad.

Lawful contact would seem to include victims, witnesses . . . heck, even purely consensual, friendly encounters with police officers.

[Wild Cobra]

Is that wrong? I'm sorry but we live in a capitalist economy where profits are more important than wages. If I can make more money by paying an illegal 10 cents an hour than paying a good old American 10 dollars an hour so I can reep higher profits, then damn it it's my right and duty as an American who loves capitalism to do it.
OK, I have too much catching up to do, I may read the posts after this one (#10) later.

I am all for opening the borders under the following conditions.

1) We eliminate all social welfare programs except for the elderly and handicapped.

Well, that's it. Then the lazy will have to compete in a supply and demand job market where the supply of labor is dramatically increased.

[Duff McCartney]

OK, I have too much catching up to do, I may read the posts after this one (#10) later.

I am all for opening the borders under the following conditions.

1) We eliminate all social welfare programs except for the elderly and handicapped.

Well, that's it. Then the lazy will have to compete in a supply and demand job market where the supply of labor is dramatically increased.

Social welfare for the elderly and handicapped? You socialist commie...get out of my country and go back to mother Russia.

[word]

If police custody were a necessary precondition, then this law wouldn't be nearly so bad.

Lawful contact would seem to include victims, witnesses . . . heck, even purely consensual, friendly encounters with police officers.

You have 'contact' with law enforcment all the time and aren't aware of it. A cop pulls up behind you at a light late at night, you can bet he's running your plate. They run people plates randomly all the time, at all times of day and night. Further, carrying a valid ID with you has been the law for umpteen fucking years in most states. Is it enforced, no, but it's the law.

What I find funny is 'this law is wrong' because it catches people breaking the law, mentality. And for all those latino's raising hell about it, I'd bet their tune would change if millions of Haitians, legal and illegal, were pouring into LA or San Antonio or Phoenix.

And lets be real about this, there is plenty of racism in the Mexican American community. There are turf wars going on out in LA between blacks and latinos. When blacks start moving into what was primarily latino communities, they become unhinged.

All that 'La Raza' 'reconquista' bullshit is just stupid macho racist crap.

What I would like to see is Mexican Americans be more Mexican American and less Mexican American.

And most are, but a significant portion, particularly in SoCal, are not.

[spursncowboys]

back to the subject at hand, does anyone think AZSB1070 or something similar would happen in the great state of texas?
I hope TX has something that penalizes the people who employ them, with a higher punishment for paying below what they would pay an american citizen. I hoped they already were allowed to question someones' citizenship. I also hope they have a plan to secure tx's international border and the border to oklahoma.

[spursncowboys]

IDK if it changed or not but a few years ago, TX was the only state where police can stop for no reason. If they had a law in TX, they would have to put that into account when making the wording.

[Duff McCartney]

What I would like to see is Mexican Americans be more Mexican American and less Mexican American.

What does that even mean? Honestly, and I'm also sure panic giraffe can chime in here too.

I was having this debate with my friend the other day, he was saying I mean you and I we're Mexicans but we act American. As in Mexican heritage but we were born and raised here, but what does that mean?

His response...I don't know what it means to act American.

I eat tortillas with my meals more than I do bread and butter, does that make me more or less American? I prefer mexican pastries over apple pie, does that make me mexican or american?

I don't think anyone really knows what it means to be American. Some might say speaking English but they speak English in England, Australia, and New Zealand...that doesn't really distinguish Americans.

I think that argument is flawed because no one can really define what it really means, and I mean really means to be American. The fact that we're such a melting pot of different cultures makes it impossible to define.

[word]

Cops everywhere can stop you for no reason. They're not suppose to but it's called 'probable cause' and 'suspicious behaviour' and 'crossing the center line' and 'not coming to a complete stop' and 'irratic behaviour' and on and on and on....

[word]

What does that even mean? Honestly, and I'm also sure panic giraffe can chime in here too.

I was having this debate with my friend the other day, he was saying I mean you and I we're Mexicans but we act American. As in Mexican heritage but we were born and raised here, but what does that mean?

His response...I don't know what it means to act American.

I eat tortillas with my meals more than I do bread and butter, does that make me more or less American? I prefer mexican pastries over apple pie, does that make me mexican or american?

I don't think anyone really knows what it means to be American. Some might say speaking English but they speak English in England, Australia, and New Zealand...that doesn't really distinguish Americans.

I think that argument is flawed because no one can really define what it really means, and I mean really means to be American. The fact that we're such a melting pot of different cultures makes it impossible to define.

It means loyalty to nation, not race or country of origin. You're thinking in terms of 'culture'. That's not what I"m talking about. It has nothing, zip, to do with culture.

What it means is, a lot of latino's it seems, want to turn a blind eye to illegal immigration from mexico and latin America because they are 'latino'. This is a racial view to this issue. As I said in another thread, if millions of Haitans began pouring into Arizona and Socal and SA illegally and even legally, latinos would be up in fucking arms. If you don't think so you're either a fool or a liar.

American culture is impossible to define ? American culture permeates the world. It is the most exported 'culture' in the world.

Hollywood, fast food, freeways, blue jeans, rock and roll, baseball, microsoft,
the space shuttle, going to the moon ie some of the best scientists in the world, new york, the grand canyon, D-day, pickup trucks, country western, jazz, hugh hefner, disneyland, Miami beach, LA, New Orleans, NFL, NBA ...muscle cars, chevrolet, apple pie, thanksgiving, college football, Boeing, the Hoover Dam, the Golden Gate Bridge... Vietnam, 911, Kennedy assassination, civil rights, slavery, the American revolution, the Alamo, PARIS FUCKING HILTON...

There is no American culture ?

A culture is made up of history, failures and accomplishments, and the people who make it up. Every country has a culture, including us.

[spursncowboys]

Cops everywhere can stop you for no reason. They're not suppose to but it's called 'probable cause' and 'suspicious behaviour' and 'crossing the center line' and 'not coming to a complete stop' and 'irratic behaviour' and on and on and on.... true and i think the texas law i was refering to were for dui's. other states can only stop people if they violated the law. in texas you could get stopped just so the police could see if you were drunk.

[Nbadan]

the border to oklahoma.

Damn Okies! Kick em out!

[Nbadan]

Cops everywhere can stop you for no reason. They're not suppose to but it's called 'probable cause' and 'suspicious behaviour' and 'crossing the center line' and 'not coming to a complete stop' and 'irratic behaviour' and on and on and on....

They can do it, but it has to be able to stand up in court.....this is, supported by physical evidence, witnesses, and such...if the case is weak, its likely to be plead down, sometimes way down..

[Nbadan]

What it means is, a lot of latino's it seems, want to turn a blind eye to illegal immigration from mexico and latin America because they are 'latino'. This is a racial view to this issue. As I said in another thread, if millions of Haitans began pouring into Arizona and Socal and SA illegally and even legally, latinos would be up in fucking arms. If you don't think so you're either a fool or a liar.

Ever hear of Cesar Chavez? A lot of Mexican-decent and even recent immigrants from Mexico-Americans don't want unrestricted immigration either...it kills border salaries for the most menial jobs, which is all the skill sets recent immigrants can offer an employer...

[word]

Ever hear of Cesar Chavez? A lot of Mexican-decent and even recent immigrants from Mexico-Americans don't want unrestricted immigration either...it kills border salaries for the most menial jobs, which is all the skill sets recent immigrants can offer an employer...

So why all the uproar ? What's it all about ?

[Nbadan]

So why all the uproar ? What's it all about ?

It's about being able to drive to Valero and not having to carry your birth certificate or Passport with you...you know, stuff the tea party claim to support...

[word]

100% bullshit. It's about a group wanting to increase their political clout by any means necessary.

[Nbadan]

100% bullshit. It's about a group wanting to increase their political clout by any means necessary.

Yeah, the Arizona GOP...they feel their power slipping away...I already told ya, once the border states turn blue, its game over for the GOP Nationally...

[word]

Maybe but this has got the support of 70% of Arizonans. Most of the illegals crossing into Arizona aren't staying there. If they did, Phoenix would be the size of LA. At least you were honest in your response as to what it is about. Like I said, Mexican first, American second.

[Nbadan]

Maybe but this has got the support of 70% of Arizonans. Most of the illegals crossing into Arizona aren't staying there. If they did, Phoenix would be the size of LA. At least you were honest in your response as to what it is about. Like I said, Mexican first, American second.

The Arizona GOP is very effective at blaming the states problem on immigrants, that's the same ole game plan politicians and monkey governments always use to justify restricting the citizen's freedoms, look at Germany pre-Hitler...

This game plan isn't new, very little is...

[word]

You can't possibly be equating Mexicans and latinos in the current scenario to Jews in 1930's Europe. Please tell me you're not doing that.

[Nbadan]

You can't possibly be equating Mexicans and latinos in the current scenario to Jews in 1930's Europe. Please tell me you're not doing that.

It's not about the Jews, its about Germany's treatment of all immigrants leading up to the Third Reich....

[word]

So that is your argument for having an open border ? Hitler ?

[Duff McCartney]

It means loyalty to nation, not race or country of origin. You're thinking in terms of 'culture'. That's not what I"m talking about. It has nothing, zip, to do with culture.

What it means is, a lot of latino's it seems, want to turn a blind eye to illegal immigration from mexico and latin America because they are 'latino'. This is a racial view to this issue. As I said in another thread, if millions of Haitans began pouring into Arizona and Socal and SA illegally and even legally, latinos would be up in fucking arms. If you don't think so you're either a fool or a liar.

American culture is impossible to define ? American culture permeates the world. It is the most exported 'culture' in the world.

Hollywood, fast food, freeways, blue jeans, rock and roll, baseball, microsoft,
the space shuttle, going to the moon ie some of the best scientists in the world, new york, the grand canyon, D-day, pickup trucks, country western, jazz, hugh hefner, disneyland, Miami beach, LA, New Orleans, NFL, NBA ...muscle cars, chevrolet, apple pie, thanksgiving, college football, Boeing, the Hoover Dam, the Golden Gate Bridge... Vietnam, 911, Kennedy assassination, civil rights, slavery, the American revolution, the Alamo, PARIS FUCKING HILTON...

There is no American culture ?

A culture is made up of history, failures and accomplishments, and the people who make it up. Every country has a culture, including us.

When did I say there was never American culture? Besides you're really gonna define American culture as Paris Hilton? Maybe that's pop culture but certainly not in 100 years when people define and remember what it means to be American will they say Paris Hilton.

Jazz is american culture? Where did jazz come from? Blacks descendents of slaves who were brought from Africa based on afro beats. Fast food based off of what? hamburgers? not American. Pizza, not American.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just wondering what it really means to be American when so many of our cultural things that you bring up have roots in different countries and ethnicities...thereby proving my point that it's a melting pot of so many different things.

[word]

So we agree that the taco is not culture.

[Nbadan]

So that is your argument for having an open border ? Hitler ?

It's the same old shell game that govts. always play to hold power, blame the immigrant, blame the poor, blame the helpless... you know Hitler also repressed immigrants who were pure Arian blood....

This is a failure of unregulated Globalization which was supposed to make things better in Mexico so that Mexicans didn't need to come to the U.S. to find a good job at a decent days pay...

[word]

Let me ask all you open-borders this ....

As I referred to above...would you be for allowing 20 million Haitain immigrants into Arizona, Texas, and California ?

[word]

Thanks for playing because I already know the answer, whether you admit it or not.

[Nbadan]

Thanks for playing because I already know the answer, whether you admit it or not.

If your premise is that we are all as racists as that post appears to be that's a horrible fail...

[Duff McCartney]

So we agree that the taco is not culture.

I never argued that it was. I simply argued that there is no definition to what it means to be American.

[panic giraffe]

Like I said, Mexican first, American second.

you don't honestly believe that do you?
that's just ignorant.

i have no allegiance to mexico, why the fuck would i or anyone in my family? we've been americans since that pussy santa ana ran for his life and gave up this land. so how could i be mexican first, and american second?

i even signed up to fight for MY country. like every generation in my family since the alamo.

this isn't about trying to flex any political muscle or "reconquista" or any shit bill o' taught you like that.

its about equality.

for the reasons above i'm just as, if not more of, an american than anyone else in this country. so why just because i have a shared cultural background with who the right (and fierce unionized left) view as "invaders" should i have to carry around a birth certificate or proof of citizenship? if it were to be equal then EVERYONE should be forced to the same check, but then where are all the civil libertarians screaming that it would create a police state?!? can't you see where this will lead if allowed unchecked?

[panic giraffe]

I never argued that it was. I simply argued that there is no definition to what it means to be American.

america isn't based on a shared culture or national identity. its based on the ideal that we can all share a culture and a national identity and pursue freedom as one.
you know the general premise of "all men created equal" yadda yadda.

besides all the things he named are influenced by past cultures, new orleans - the french, miami - cubans/general south/latin american cuture, etc. we're basically the modern roman empire or persian empire, we're a collection of different cultures united as one. hell even our states and regions within have their own culture, but they're still united in the general belief of freedom and liberty, both of which have no place in a "papers please?" type of regime, wouldn't you agree?

[panic giraffe]

Let me ask all you open-borders this ....

As I referred to above...would you be for allowing 20 million Haitain immigrants into Arizona, Texas, and California ?

i could care less, even less so if they are just as productive as any wave of first generation immigrant group.

but you are demonstrating the problem with the immigration issue in this country. you're turning an issue of nationalization into an issue of race, so at that point it's almost hopeless having this debate with you.

[word]

nationalization ?

And yeah, you would care you lying fuck.

[word]

I never argued that it was. I simply argued that there is no definition to what it means to be American.

Go live in France or Russia or Saudi Arabia a few years. You'll recognize it when you get back. There is no american culture that can be defined...hmmph...what a bunch of loones.

[panic giraffe]

And yeah, you would care you lying fuck.

yes because you honestly know me in real life.

go choke yourself while fingering your asshole to michael savage ignorant fuck.

[word]

i have no allegiance to mexico, why the fuck would i or anyone in my family? we've been americans since that pussy santa ana ran for his life and gave up this land.

This right here....

[word]

yes because you honestly know me in real life.

go choke yourself while fingering your asshole to michael savage ignorant fuck.

Don't know who Michael Savage is so I guess I am ignorant about that. I don't watch much TV. Don't have fox or cnn so I'm not up on all the stars of the left and right. I read books. You should give it a shot sometime.

[panic giraffe]

This right here....

what does that have to do with my opinion of 20 million hatians or japanese or any other race coming to texas?

[panic giraffe]

Don't know who Michael Savage is so I guess I am ignorant about that. I don't watch much TV. Don't have fox or cnn so I'm not up on all the stars of the left and right. I read books. You should give it a shot sometime.

he isn't on tv, but whatever...just because he didn't ghostwrite palins book or whatever it is that you read...

[word]

Never read Palins book, can't stand her. I might peruse it if I can find it for a couple of bucks.

I highlighted it because of your statement this immigration debate was not about 'reconquista' and eluded to Bill O'reilly for some reason then...said something that certainly infers it IS about 'reconquista' or whatever ..


we've been americans since that pussy santa ana ran for his life and gave up this land.

:downspin:

This certainly has the 'ring' of 'you stole our land' to it...

YOU GRINGOS...YOU STOLE OUR LAND ....:lol

yeah right, and lets see...your heritage, unless you are 100% native ..is of one Hernan Cortez, motherfucker....

Your forefathers have been 'stealing land' for about 500 years. Don't play that victim card with me you little midget bitch.

[panic giraffe]

i'm sorry, since when did "this" mean "mine"?

god you're ignorant, no wonder you would waste 2 bucks that would be better spent on a tug job from your mom on palins book.

"has a ring"? drawing straws my friend.

i never said i was 100% native or even completely of the western hemisphere, i just said my family has been in the us for as long as texas has been a state of the union, and has volunteered for every war this country has fought since then.

midget bitch?... racist much? just running on stereotypes of speedy gonzales i see.

for someone who claims to read, you sure have a hell of a problem with comprehension.

[word]

'...we've been americans since that pussy santa ana ran for his life and gave up this land.'

I'll say this, you sure do know how to dance....

THIS IS OUR LAND...GRINGOS STOLE OUR LAND !!! SANTA ANA GAVE IT UP ESE...IT WAS STOLEN !!

Your family, your forefathers, have been stealing land for 500 years. You are not a victim. You have not been oppressed. You are the oppressor, not the oppressed. Montezuma did not speak spanish. Montezuma was not a christian.
Your forefathers were some of the biggest slave traders in history. You are not a victim. You are a victimizer. The Mayans were not Catholic. Hitler was an amateur compared to your forefathers.

[word]

Dance motherfucker, dance !!!!

[panic giraffe]

'...we've been americans since that pussy santa ana ran for his life and gave up this land.'

I'll say this, you sure do know how to dance....

THIS IS OUR LAND...GRINGOS STOLE OUR LAND !!! SANTA ANA GAVE IT UP ESE...IT WAS STOLEN !!

Your family, your forefathers, have been stealing land for 500 years. You are not a victim. You have not been oppressed. You are the oppressor, not the oppressed. Montezuma did not speak spanish. Montezuma was not a christian.
Your forefathers were some of the biggest slave traders in history. You are not a victim. You are a victimizer. The Mayans were not Catholic. Hitler was an amateur compared to your forefathers.

i'm not catholic. another stereotype, eh?
the spanish side of my family is Sephardi, so i really appreciate the hitler comparison. the native side of my family were decedents of the aztec not the mayans, but you don't even know the difference between a frenchman and a spaniard, so i wouldn't expect that from you. (so why would you even know that moctezuma II was aztec and not mayan, then again you probably also walk around calling thai people japs at the level of ignorance you're showing)
when did i say land was stolen? lost in a war doesn't mean stolen, i just called santa ana a pussy for giving it up in exchange for keeping his life. if i was a general and an occupying force told me i could either live or leave, i would choose die to send the right message for my troops.

[angrydude]

'...we've been americans since that pussy santa ana ran for his life and gave up this land.'

I'll say this, you sure do know how to dance....

THIS IS OUR LAND...GRINGOS STOLE OUR LAND !!! SANTA ANA GAVE IT UP ESE...IT WAS STOLEN !!

Your family, your forefathers, have been stealing land for 500 years. You are not a victim. You have not been oppressed. You are the oppressor, not the oppressed. Montezuma did not speak spanish. Montezuma was not a christian.
Your forefathers were some of the biggest slave traders in history. You are not a victim. You are a victimizer. The Mayans were not Catholic. Hitler was an amateur compared to your forefathers.

go look up the right of conquest bitch.

And by your logic the indians should have been happy to accept all the Europeans into their land without doing anything to stop it. Look where that got them.

[word]

yeah I know montezuma wasn't mayan...

You so victim.

And this, is just classic....
i would choose die .

Now, I'm sure you don't have that in you but it once again, shows how you feel about it all. DAMN THAT SANTA ANA....HE SHOULD HAVE CHOSE DEATH SO WE KEPT FIGHTING AGAINST THOSE GRINGOS !!!

haha...but I like how you RAN, without haste, to the victim side of your heritage.

Just for the record, I had nothing to do with it.

[word]

go look up the right of conquest bitch.

And by your logic the indians should have been happy to accept all the Europeans into their land without doing anything to stop it. Look where that got them.

You're confused. Not justifying it. I'm saying most 'Mexicans'...with Spanish blood in them, and especially those with 100% spanish blood, ARE the oppressors. What I find laughable is Hispanic nutjobs trying to pull off some victim status like the Irish or Germans came into the American Southwest and central and south America and conquered a bunch of land and killed and oppressed millions of people.

This victim status of hispanics is ignoring a huge part of their history. Always dancing from one side to the other, at their convenience.

People love to espouse themselves as victims.

[panic giraffe]

yeah I know montezuma wasn't mayan...

You so victim.

And this, is just classic.....

Now, I'm sure you don't have that in you but it once again, shows how you feel about it all. DAMN THAT SANTA ANA....HE SHOULD HAVE CHOSE DEATH SO WE KEPT FIGHTING AGAINST THOSE GRINGOS !!!

haha...but I like how you RAN, without haste, to the victim side of your heritage.

Just for the record, I had nothing to do with it.

i meant death or to die, whatever i need to sleep.

anyways i wasn't choosing the victim side of my heritage, just educating you that not all brown people are "catholic wetbacks"(i mean fuck, how many brownskin jews do you really get to meet everyday in texas?!?), i can now see that its like teaching helen keller to see, so whatever.
keep reaching at your straws. tell a former american soldier who was the son of an american soldier who was the son of an american soldier and so on that he's less american based solely on the color of his skin and how his family came to become americans. i hope you haven't figured out how to breed yet.

[word]

me so victim...me so victim...

[panic giraffe]

haha, cute, so what's your story anyways?
how did your family get to become americans?

[word]

Ellis Island. Ireland. Both sides.

I have zero ties or loyalty to Ireland. I did not, and do not, what is left of it, support the IRA. For the record....

And yes, my family can drink...the stereotype is real.

[panic giraffe]

so if you have no ties or loyalty to ireland, or the ira(maybe that explains your hatred of catholics?) why is it so hard to believe that someone who who is american of mexican decent doesn't have any ties or loyalty to mexico? if i were to claim loyalty to any thing before the US it would be texas, but that's besides the point. i don't support, taking the states that were formerly part of mexico and either returning them to mexico or becoming an independent aztlan nation, i just disagree with laws like the one that started this thread because it puts people like me out subjects us to potential civil rights violations based on the mere fact of the color of my skin, so to me that makes it unamerican. but whatever, you'll probably just say i'm playing the victim card again...

[word]

maybe that explains your hatred of catholics?

I AM Catholic. I don't suck Vatican cock, brother. They suck when it comes to social justice. They shouldn't even be involved in it. Whatever side they are on, pretty much pick the other. Rwanda anyone ?


What is so hard to believe someone who is american of mexican decent doesn't have any ties or loyalty to mexico ?

100,000 marching in LA ?

The response of mexican americans when it comes to illegal immigration from latin america ? Archbishop Gomez ?

What am I, a fucking child ?

Hey man, if you want to talk to me and if we're gonna calm down here and get off the flame war, you gotta be real with me, brother.

We can be friends can't we ?

I think, at the heart of this...WITHOUT going into the pure definition...this is about racism and don't get me wrong...I realize I am like everyone else and I have a bit of racism in me. Everyone does. That knife cuts both ways, as it does here. I moved to SA 8 years ago, the vaste majority of people I know and are my friends are latino and I have not said ONE FUCKING THING to you I would not say to them or have, BTW...

I moved here, retired..voluntarily. I want to one day emigrate IN to Mexico if I can, when my parents pass away. I have noooo problem with Mexican culture..whatsoever. Well that's a lie..I think the macho part of hispanics/latino culture is a fucking joke. If you so macho why did your land GET STOLEN !?!? haha...Anyway...my grandfather, 100% Irish, born in Mexico...spoke fluent spanish...his dad had a stake in a silver mine...don't wanna go into all that but I'm not prejudice anti-mexican latino. I AM anti stupid 'you stole our land' fucked up south side glue sniffing spray painting macho mexican. You know EXACTLY what the fuck I'm talking about.

I have a HUGE problem with illegal immigration and the idea of 'reconquista' or whatever. This is a country. I don't want 10 million lilly white europeans or anyone else coming here, without our permission.


because it puts people like me out subjects us to potential civil rights violations based on the mere fact of the color of my skin

Language would be more of a factor. If you got pulled over for some reason,and could not speak English, then my guess is, you'd get a hard look. This color of skin thing is a strawman.

Fucking period, dude.

[panic giraffe]

against a law that is unamerican.

[word]

Enforcing immigration is un-american ? Once again, let's bring 20 million Haitians into Texas, Arizona, California...

badges ? Dude, don't run away again...I responded to you. Up two....

[panic giraffe]

i'm not running away.

go upstream to see my views on immigration.

a child of ellis island of all people should understand "Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
' With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

i said i have no problem with more immigration, you just called me a fucking liar.

[panic giraffe]

ps stop editing

[panic giraffe]

if i got pulled over and couldn't speak english it would be because i'm drunk

[word]

a child of ellis island of all people should understand "Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
' With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

i said i have no problem with more immigration, you just called me a fucking liar.

Ahhh and there's the rub. So France sends us a statue, Lazarus writes a poem that they put on a plaque in 1883 and THAT is suppose to be US immigration policy from here to fucking eternity ?

Hell lets just fight the British again while we're at it.

It's not 1776, or 1863 or 1883, brother.

[word]

ps stop editing

If the person I'm responding to isn't on the thread, I feel free to edit my latest post. I may edit this one. I just did. Edit, bitch. Sometimes I clean up spelling errors/typos.

Tough shit.

Now I'll edit just to piss you off....

edit to the edit

i just edited the edit of my edit...

[admiralsnackbar]

Why is Word equating being against this bill with being against immigration reform? Moreover: is he not aware of the history of Irish immigrants in this country?

[exstatic]

Are you saying it doesn't happen because you never have seen it? I had a friend who's dad mowed yards and made a good living. He was definitely pushed out because he couldn't compete with the low wages people were offering.

This is rich. Whenever the disadvantages of minorities are brought up, the position is that they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps, but your friend's dad gets legal protection for his fucking landscaping job? Fuck that. Improve your education and advance your career out of the way of the manual labor professions, or compete in that labor market place.

[spursncowboys]

This is rich. Whenever the disadvantages of minorities are brought up, the position is that they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps, but your friend's dad gets legal protection for his fucking landscaping job? Fuck that. Improve your education and advance your career out of the way of the manual labor professions, or compete in that labor market place.
:lol Nice. Not snobbish at all. There is good money in landscaping btw.
SO your whole idea of illegal immigrants is so they can stay impoverished and able to clean your house and mow your yard at a cheap cost to you? That is not capitalism, guy.
I love the contempt you hold for people who actually have jobs.

[exstatic]

:lol Nice. Not snobbish at all. There is good money in landscaping btw.
SO your whole idea of illegal immigrants is so they can stay impoverished and able to clean your house and mow your yard at a cheap cost to you? That is not capitalism, guy.
I love the contempt you hold for people who actually have jobs.

It's capitalism in it's purest form. The labor cost is what the market will bear. If your friend's dad won't work for the current "going wages" in landscaping then he needs to do something else. He shouldn't rely on "government interference".

[panic giraffe]

It's capitalism in it's purest form. The labor cost is what the market will bear. If your friend's dad won't work for the current "going wages" in landscaping then he needs to do something else. He shouldn't rely on "government interference".

or he can provide a superior product. i buy from plenty local "ma and pa's" who do charge more for whatever service i want, whether its a farmer's market, auto repair, even the bar's i go to, because i know the service i get is better. if he still wants to stay in landscaping but can't get his customers on price, get them on a better product, xeriscaping, design, etc....but don't take it out on immigrants if you just want to do the same job at a higher price simply because you're a natural born citizen. that sense of entitlement is almost laughable to see in those who claim to be "govt out of my life" teabagger capitalists.

[spursncowboys]

It's capitalism in it's purest form. The labor cost is what the market will bear. If your friend's dad won't work for the current "going wages" in landscaping then he needs to do something else. He shouldn't rely on "government interference".
the markets dictate a higher rate of what is being charged. the going wages are artificially kept down from illegals. government interference created this problem and now you want to ignore it?