Torrorist Attack at Times Square

[Wild Cobra]

Good thing the detonator failed...

I wonder if this was a local kook liberal terrorist, or a foreign like Al-Qaeda.

Times Square cleared as suspected car bomb found (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2011757518_apustimessquarecarsmoke.html)

Besides what the article says, I did hear there was a failed detonator and the license plates did not belong to the SUV. I'm sure we will hear a little more soon.

[Wild Cobra]

Related article with more info:

Times Square evacuated by suspected car bomb (http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=7417804)

According to ABC News, inside the Nissan Pathfinder police found: Three propane cylinders, two five gallon jerry cans of gasoline, a canister of powder, electrical components and an alarm clock.

Police at the scene said, "It's the real deal."

Bomb techs from the FBI New York office were on scene with the NYPD Bomb Squad to aid in the investigation.

Thousands of tourists and theatergoers were cleared from the area because of the scare.

It started with a report of a vehicle fire around 6:35 Saturday night.

The vehicle was parked on 45th Street west of Broadway.

Witnesses said they heard an explosion, then saw smoke coming from the car.

"It was a boom and a puff of smoke," one man said.

"I saw people running, turning tables," Paula Delarrosa said.

A New York City firefighter told ABC News that the vehicle was smoking and also said he saw "a flash" from the back of the SUV. The firefighter said a "mini-explosion" occurred between 6 p.m. and 6:30 p.m.

"The SUV was smoking. There was a flash and we put two and two together" and an evacuation was ordered, he said.

[Stringer_Bell]

Good thing the detonator failed...

I wonder if this was a local kook liberal terrorist, or a foreign like Al-Qaeda.

Times Square cleared as suspected car bomb found (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2011757518_apustimessquarecarsmoke.html)

Besides what the article says, I did hear there was a failed detonator and the license plates did not belong to the SUV. I'm sure we will hear a little more soon.

Kook liberal terrorist? In an SUV? Sounds like a gas guzzling tea partier to me. :wakeup

PS: No one else finds it odd that all these half-assed terrorist plots are giant failures? I mean, thank God everyone is safe and no harm has come our way, but these terrorists are real fucking idiots - how the fuck did they get to us on 9/11?

[Wild Cobra]

but these terrorists are real fucking idiots
That's why I think they're liberal kooks.

[Stringer_Bell]

That's why I think they're liberal kooks.

:lmao

but don't the ones on the news we see getting caught come from those middle eastern countries with real crazy conservative religious laws? :(

[ChumpDumper]

According to Wild Cobra, all the successful terrorists are conservatives.

[DJ Mbenga]

man they are taking a while for this press conference to begin

[exstatic]

PS: No one else finds it odd that all these half-assed terrorist plots are giant failures? I mean, thank God everyone is safe and no harm has come our way, but these terrorists are real fucking idiots - how the fuck did they get to us on 9/11?

It takes brains to design and build a detonator that will work, not so many to learn MS flight simulator and overpower unprepared crews on planes that almost fly themselves. One hundred percent of planes driven into buildings will explode.

[ElNono]

I don't think it's been declared a terrorist attack yet. Last I read was that it was being considered as 'potentially being a terrorist attack', according to the head of the DHS.

[Bartleby]

There are so many security cameras at Times Square, I'd be amazed if they don't have images of the guy(s) who left the truck there.

[Sausage]

Cops: Possible suspects in Times Square car bomb include group behind 'South Park' threat

By Alison Gendar, Rocco Parascandola and Helen Kennedy
DAILY NEWS WRITERS

Sunday, May 2nd 2010, 1:46 PM

Police hunting the man who parked a crude but powerful car bomb in Times Square are looking into a possible link to a "South Park" cartoon lampooning threats against depicting Mohammed.

No link has been established, but threats against the Comedy Central animators appeared on a New York Islamist Web site last week and police are aggressively looking for connections, sources told The Daily News.

The Nissan Pathfider, its engine running and hazards flashing, was parked Saturday night on W 45th St. right next to the Viacom Building at 1515 Broadway. Viacom owns Comedy Central.

The SUV was packed with propane, gasoline and fireworks and a rudimentary fuse had already been ignited.

Sharp-eyed vendors are being credited with alerting cops when they spotted the saving they alerted day when he saw smoke curling from the car at about 6:30 p.m.

The materials were primitive, but if the van had blown, officials said the inferno would have eclipsed the blazing lights of the Crossroads of the World.

"I think the intent was to cause a significant ball of fire," said Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly.

"We are very, very lucky," said a police source.

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano said the feds were taking it very seriously, treating it as "a potential terrorist attack."

"Right now, we have no information other than it is a one-off," she told ABC. "Nonetheless, we are alerting state and local law enforcement - everybody - to be on their toes."

The probe is in high gear. The "South Park" episode in question showed Mohammed speaking from inside a U-Haul trailer and wearing a bear costume.

RevolutionMuslim.com posted the warning that included a graphic photo of Theo van Gogh, a Dutch filmmaker murdered in 2004 for making documentary on violence against Muslim women.

"We have to warn Matt and Trey that what they are doing is stupid and they will probably wind up like Theo Van Gogh for airing this show," the posting said.

Comedy Central censored a follow up episode of the famously vulgar show, bleeping out out all references to Mohammed.

Creators Matt Stone and Trey Parker were unhappy, noting that their message was "about intimidation and fear."

Meanwhile, the van's vehicle identification number was defaced, but detectives have been been able to decipher some characters, police sources said.

They also have lifted some fingerprints from the vehicle and traced its stolen Connecticut license plate to a junkyard called Kramer's Used Auto Parts in Stratford, Conn.

Surveillance videos reviewed so far caught the car heading west from 6th Avenue on 45th St., but missed the driver exiting. There are at least two dozen cameras on the block and police are looking for more videos.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2010/05/02/2010-05-02_cops_possible_suspects_in_times_square_car_bomb _include_group_behind_south_park_.html?r=ny_local&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+nydnrss%2Fny_local+%28NY+Loca l%29#ixzz0mnU1CkYZ

source: NYDailyNews.com

[panic giraffe]

i think it was domestic.

"three propane tanks, fireworks, two filled 5-gallon gasoline containers, and two clocks with batteries, electrical wire and other components"

[Nbadan]

MSNBC reports cameras captured a 'white guy in his forties' running from the vehicle...

...Probably the work of tea-baggers upset with Jon Stewart who works for Viacom nearby. Most likely led by Tucker Carlson. Looks like he's as good a bomber as a dancer.

[Nbadan]

Meanwhile,

A top Pakistani Taliban commander took credit for yesterday's failed car bomb attack in New York City.


Qari Hussain Mehsud, the top bomb maker for the Movement of the Taliban in Pakistan, said he takes "fully responsibility for the recent attack in the USA." Qari Hussain made the claim on an audiotape accompanied by images that was released on a YouTube website that calls itself the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan News Channel.

The tape has yet to be verified, but US intelligence officials contacted by The Long War Journal believe it is legitimate. The Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan News Channel on YouTube was created on April 30. Officials believe it was created to announce the Times Square attack, and Qari Hussain’s statement was pre-recorded.

LInk (http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2010/05/pakistani_taliban_cl.php#ixzz0mnPrz3Oe)

Blah, Blah, Blah....

[Stringer_Bell]

Cops: Possible suspects in Times Square car bomb include group behind 'South Park' threat

The cops are wasting their time on that one or setting up a convenient fall guy. Maybe after this the government will give NYC the homeland security funds it deserves, right Mr. Bloomberg?

[panic giraffe]

if this was a foreign terrorist i would just be happy that they're so shitty nowadays and can't even make their bombs right, but honestly i don't buy that. if a prius accelerates too much and runs into obama's caravan, then they would take credit for it. it's kinda sad, really.

the amateurishness of this smacks of a mcviegh wanna be minus the armed forces training.

friend of the hutatree i presume?

[Bartleby]

Considering how much experience the Taliban have blowing up cars, it seems odd that they would botch such a high profile attempt.

[boutons_deux]

WC accusing liberals of murder

Limbaugh accusing environmentalists of murder on the platform

both of you, GO FUCK YOURSELVES..

[panic giraffe]

i don't remember a liberal terrorist blowing up the Murr building.
i don't remember a liberal terrorist shooting george tiller in his church.
i don't remember a liberal terrorist blowing up the 16th st church.
do you want me to go on?

[spursncowboys]

I don't think it's been declared a terrorist attack yet. Last I read was that it was being considered as 'potentially being a terrorist attack', according to the head of the DHS.
If you go by napolitono, ft hood wasn't a terrorist act.

[ElNono]

If you go by napolitono, ft hood wasn't a terrorist act.

You disagree?

[LnGrrrR]

Terrorist attacks have to have specific motivations behind them. If they don't, they're not terrorist attacks.

[jack sommerset]

One of the suspects is a white dude in his 40's.

[jack sommerset]

Why have they not released the vidoe footage of the suspect. Instead they release a picture of a clock. They need to get the photo out there.

[DJ Mbenga]

seriously dude take the time to edit the the spelling. torrorist?

[jack sommerset]

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20100503/capt.fb7fa599d07c4bdea442758da11bad56-fb7fa599d07c4bdea442758da11bad56-0.jpg?x=400&y=301&q=85&sig=rEuNmXLHcnSL5PyBH0HO7g--

[Wild Cobra]

:lmao

but don't the ones on the news we see getting caught come from those middle eastern countries with real crazy conservative religious laws? :(
Liberal and conservative are relative terms surrounding the particular culture. You are trying comparing apples to oranges.

FAIL!

[Wild Cobra]

The SUV was packed with propane, gasoline and fireworks and a rudimentary fuse had already been ignited.

They forgot the 70 pounds of Ammonium Nitrate.

If it was an organized Islamic terrorist group, they would have had access to a proper detonator. The fireworks didn't blow well enough to blow the gasoline and fertilizer together. Estimates are that it would have been a 800 foot blast radius with a proper detonator.

[Stringer_Bell]

Liberal and conservative are relative terms surrounding the particular culture. You are trying comparing apples to oranges.

FAIL!

Me - FAIL? Holy shit, I can't believe you went there. :nope

[jack sommerset]

I'm surprised they have not caught him yet.

[jack sommerset]

When they do catch the guy this thread will light up like a Griswold X-Mas!

[Winehole23]

@Stringer_Bell: I can believe it. WC seldom fails to declare puny triumph while putting down other posters at the same time: stinky butter for weak toast.

[Bartleby]

I'm surprised they have not caught him yet.

Supposedly they have some good leads (but what that really means is anybody's guess).

[jack sommerset]

A picture of the dude is a pretty good lead.

[clambake]

i just want to know if he's gay

[Yonivore]

A picture of the dude is a pretty good lead.
Actually, they've identified the buyer of the SUV as a Pakistani-American who recently spent a few months back home. They're also closing in on a few of his associates.

Unfortunately for Mayor Bloomberg, it wasn't before he tried to advance the narrative it was some domestic terrorist pissed off over Obamacare.


"If I had to guess 25 cents, this would be exactly that. Homegrown, or maybe a mentally deranged person, or somebody with a political agenda that doesn't like the health care bill or something. It could be anything," he said.
It's likely the store security video, showing the man taking of his shirt, is just that; a video of a man taking off his shirt.

[jack sommerset]

i just want to know if he's gay

That would explain some things, troll.


Actually, they've identified the buyer of the SUV as a Pakistani-American who recently spent a few months back home. They're also closing in on a few of his associates.

Unfortunately for Mayor Bloomberg, it wasn't before he tried to advance the narrative it was some domestic terrorist pissed off over Obamacare.

Politics! I like the wait and see approach most media, bloggers and douchebags are displaying but again I am surprised they have not found the guys yet. So they have a name and they are not reporting it?

[Yonivore]

Politics! I like the wait and see approach most media, bloggers and douchebags are displaying but again I am surprised they have not found the guys yet. So they have a name and they are not reporting it?
Authorities Have Identified Person of Interest in Times Square Bomb Attempt (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/times-square-car-bomber-police-release-video-suspect/story?id=10534834)

Federal authorities are closing in on the man they say is a person of interest in the Times Square car bomb attempt this weekend, who is described as a naturalized American citizen who hails from Pakistan and just returned after spending five months there.
I don't know, ask ABC.

As for Bloomberg's comments, here's a video.

Bloomberg: NYC Bomb Suspect Someone With A "Political Agenda" (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/05/03/bloomberg_nyc_bomb_suspect_someone_with_a_politica l_agenda.html)

[jack sommerset]

A few nuts but overall people are waiting for more info.

[Nbadan]

Authorities arrested a suspect in the attempted weekend car bombing in Times Square, NBC News' justice correspondent Pete Williams reported early Tuesday morning.

A U.S. citizen of Pakistani descent, Shahzad Faisal, was arrested Monday night on Long Island, Williams reported.

Earlier, an official told The Associated Press that the potential suspect recently traveled to Pakistan. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because the case was at a sensitive stage.

The officials said the man was a Connecticut resident who paid cash weeks ago for the SUV parked in Times Square on Saturday and rigged with a crude propane-and-gasoline bomb

MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36892505/ns/us_news-security)

[jack sommerset]

MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36892505/ns/us_news-security)

lol@MSNBC

[ChumpDumper]

lol@MSNBCWhat factual problem do you have with the article?

[Ignignokt]

What factual problem do you have with the article?

the fact that it's MSNBC! LOLERZ!!

[Cane]

lol@MSNBC

lol@jack sommerset

[boutons_deux]

McLiar whining about reading this guy his Miranda rights.

McLiar knows how to pander to the America-hating red-state dumbfucks and teabaggers.

[Stringer_Bell]

What kind of terrorist flies back to Dubai after failing to set off their internet-blue-print manure bomb? You'd think these people, that hate America with such passion, would go suicide bombing in the event of failure. It just shows you how desperate the terrorists are for every able body.

[rjv]

wonder if he had any family killed from bombing raids we have conducted in pakistan

[ChumpDumper]

the fact that it's MSNBC! LOLERZ!!How does that affect the content of this particular article?

[Ignignokt]

How does that affect the content of this particular article?

Yes

[ChumpDumper]

How does that affect the content of this particular article?

[Ignignokt]

Si

[ChumpDumper]

How?

[Yonivore]

Army Intelligence Planes Led To Suspect's Arrest (http://wcbstv.com/local/times.square.car.2.1674692.html)

Call To Emirates Airlines Intercepted By Military Jets, Helped Investigators Track Faisal Shahzad Down
...
In the end, it was secret Army intelligence planes that did him in. Armed with his cell phone number, they circled the skies over the New York area, intercepting a call to Emirates Airlines reservations, before scrambling to catch him at John F. Kennedy International Airport.

A domestic to domestic call by a U. S. Citizen. It'll be interesting to see if the media ever asks whether or not a FISA warrant was sought.

[ChumpDumper]

If he was already a suspect for a domestic federal crime, why would they need a FISA warrant?

[FromWayDowntown]

If he was already a suspect for a domestic federal crime, why would they need a FISA warrant?

Damn -- probable cause getting in the way of an argument to support ignorance of the Constitution . . . .

[ChumpDumper]

Damn -- probable cause getting in the way of an argument to support ignorance of the Constitution . . . .:lol and Yoni claims to have been a Barney Fife in the past.

[Yonivore]

Damn -- probable cause getting in the way of an argument to support ignorance of the Constitution . . . .
Since when did military intelligence investigate domestic federal crimes?

[ChumpDumper]

Since when did military intelligence investigate domestic federal crimes?Since they were told the cell number of a suspected domestic terrorist.

[Stringer_Bell]

This idiot was trained at a Pakistani (aka the Disney World of Terror) terror camp to build bombs? If those guys are supposed to be worse than Afghan/Iraq insurgents...why they fuck are they so much shittier at being terrorists?

[FromWayDowntown]

Since when did military intelligence investigate domestic federal crimes?

I'd imagine that with any act of domestic terrorism, particularly in a post-9/11 world in which agencies are encouraged to share their resources and information, this would be the norm.

That the military was involved doesn't change the fact that authorities had clear probable cause to obtain the warrants necessary to tap his phones and arrest him on sight. That is, the authorities didn't need to disregard the Constitution to get their man. What a novel thought!

Of course, in light of this attack, I'm genuinely surprised that the internment camps haven't started springing up all across the country; if only Bush/Obama had let all of those big businesses fail -- we'd have in-place facilities and infrastructure to keep these people where they belong!!

[Wild Cobra]

wonder if he had any family killed from bombing raids we have conducted in pakistan
Actually, his family has no such connections to anything of the sort.

[Wild Cobra]

This idiot was trained at a Pakistani (aka the Disney World of Terror) terror camp to build bombs? If those guys are supposed to be worse than Afghan/Iraq insurgents...why they fuck are they so much shittier at being terrorists?
According to the news I heard, access to quality detonator material is hard to come by here in the USA. He obviously had poor outside connections, else he could have acquired one.

[Stringer_Bell]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/05/05/no.fly.list.questions/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn


Shazad made his reservation by phone as he drove to the airport just hours before the flight, investigators said. When he paid for his ticket in cash at the ticket counter, the airline had not refreshed its no-fly information, so his name did not raise any red flags, a senior counterterrorism official said.

Are you fucking serious? Paying for a ticket in cash hours before the flight? Meanwhile, normal passengers get random searches and crosschecked constantly for this no-fly list. The list should refresh on its own, right? I mean if babies can get kicked off flights for being on the no-fly list...why the fuck wasn't the CIA/FBI/DHS pushing for airlines to be vigilant and "refresh" their lists? Wasn't there a failed terrorist attack a few days ago with a missing driver?!?!?!!

How this dude was caught and all he's admitted is so convenient, someone needs to put a bow on this already.

[BlackSwordsMan]

another terrorist scheme stopped under obama

[jack sommerset]

The guy was pissed because of free healthcare so he wanted to kill as many innocent people as he could.

[ElNono]

I thought they did a good job nailing the guy as quickly as they did. Sure, there's stuff to improve. But they did identify and catch him in basically under 3 days without any actual footage of the guy near the vehicle.

I'm sure that if the attempt would have been a success or if the guy eventually managed to escape, Dick Cheney would have been all over this.

[admiralsnackbar]

I thought they did a good job nailing the guy as quickly as they did. Sure, there's stuff to improve. But they did identify and catch him in basically under 3 days without any actual footage of the guy near the vehicle.

I'm sure that if the attempt would have been a success or if the guy eventually managed to escape, Dick Cheney would have been all over this.

Meh. If Dick Cheney wants to weigh in, I'm sure he will. The guy's never let facts interfere with his message.

[Yonivore]

I thought they did a good job nailing the guy as quickly as they did. Sure, there's stuff to improve. But they did identify and catch him in basically under 3 days without any actual footage of the guy near the vehicle.
Only because the bomb failed to detonate and they had an intact vehicle with all sorts of forensic evidence. Now, imagine if the SUV were in a couple million pieces intermingled with the debris from surrounding buildings and other nearby vehicles.

The Jihadist would be in Pakistan right now and Janet Incompitano would be searching every militia camp and Tea Party gathering in the nation for that poor sap that changed his shirt a couple blocks from the blast.


I'm sure that if the attempt would have been a success or if the guy eventually managed to escape, Dick Cheney would have been all over this.
No matter what the administration says, the "system" did not work. We got lucky.

[ChumpDumper]

Only because the bomb failed to detonate and they had an intact vehicle with all sorts of forensic evidence. Now, imagine if the SUV were in a couple million pieces intermingled with the debris from surrounding buildings and other nearby vehicles.

The Jihadist would be in Pakistan right now and Janet Incompitano would be searching every militia camp and Tea Party gathering in the nation for that poor sap that changed his shirt a couple blocks from the blast.


No matter what the administration says, the "system" did not work. We got lucky.Were things different under Bush?

[LnGrrrR]

No matter what the administration says, the "system" did not work. We got lucky.


Getting lucky in this case is equivalent to the system working. Is "the system" designed to find terrorists within three days? I'd argue that's an unrealistic expectation in most cases.

[ChumpDumper]

Yoni is disappointed the terrorist attack was not successful.

[Yonivore]

Getting lucky in this case is equivalent to the system working. Is "the system" designed to find terrorists within three days? I'd argue that's an unrealistic expectation in most cases.
If the bomb had detonated, do you believe they would have been as successful?

I don't. We got lucky.

The Jihadist went to Pakistan and trained for 6 months. That didn't raise any flags? And, if it did, how the fuck did he ever have the opportunity to drive a car bomb to Times Square and try to blow up the Viacom building.

We. Got. Lucky. The "system" didn't work.

[jack sommerset]

The Jihadist would be in Pakistan right now and Janet Incompitano would be searching every militia camp and Tea Party gathering in the nation for that poor sap that changed his shirt a couple blocks from the blast..

You're right about that.

[ChumpDumper]

The Jihadist went to Pakistan and trained for 6 months. That didn't raise any flags?How was anyone supposed to know that, Barney?

[LnGrrrR]

The Jihadist went to Pakistan and trained for 6 months. That didn't raise any flags? And, if it did, how the fuck did he ever have the opportunity to drive a car bomb to Times Square and try to blow up the Viacom building.


Did the authorities know this guy trained in Pakistan before the bomb scare?

Again, do you think our system is designed to catch guys within three days?

Is it a failure of our criminal justice system if police don't catch a suspect within three days?

[Yonivore]

Did the authorities know this guy trained in Pakistan before the bomb scare?
I don't know. He's an American citizen with a passport, I presume. They may not know he was training but they knew how long he was in Pakistan.

I think our intelligence agencies -- one of them, at least -- might have been curious about that.


Again, do you think our system is designed to catch guys within three days?

Is it a failure of our criminal justice system if police don't catch a suspect within three days?
What's the point of your question?

If we hadn't got lucky, all the forensics available in this case would have been spread over a pretty large blast radius and intermingled with a whole lot of collateral damage. That would have pretty much precluded a quick capture.

It's not the system, LnGrrrR; it's the luck.

[FromWayDowntown]

If we hadn't got lucky, all the forensics available in this case would have been spread over a pretty large blast radius and intermingled with a whole lot of collateral damage. That would have pretty much precluded a quick capture.

Ramzi Yousef wholeheartedly agrees with this.

[Yonivore]

Ramzi Yousef wholeheartedly agrees with this.
I'm sure he does, Yousef escaped to Pakistan and wasn't arrested until 1995.

I'm sorry, did I say Yousef escaped to Pakistan? I meant to say Iraq. I guess I was thrown by all the certainty -- on the Left -- that there was no al Qaeda in Iraq before the U.S. invasion of 2003.

Yousef was captured in Pakistan but, he first went to Iraq.

[LnGrrrR]

I don't know. He's an American citizen with a passport, I presume. They may not know he was training but they knew how long he was in Pakistan.

So you would like the CIA/FBI/Intelligence agencies to track the actions of EVERY person who has flown/is living in Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, and various other countries hostile to us?


If we hadn't got lucky, all the forensics available in this case would have been spread over a pretty large blast radius and intermingled with a whole lot of collateral damage. That would have pretty much precluded a quick capture.

It's not the system, LnGrrrR; it's the luck.

You said the system had failed.

I'm telling you, the system is not DESIGNED to catch people within three days, so it's not a failure.

Were we lucky? Of course. That doesn't mean the system failed.

This is somewhat a poor analogy, but if your car makes it to 500,000 miles, and then craps out, does that mean the car is a 'failure'? Of course not. Are you lucky it lasted that long? Yes.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm sure he does, Yousef escaped to Pakistan and wasn't arrested until 1995.

I'm sorry, did I say Yousef escaped to Pakistan? I meant to say Iraq. I guess I was thrown by all the certainty -- on the Left -- that there was no al Qaeda in Iraq before the U.S. invasion of 2003.

Yousef was captured in Pakistan but, he first went to Iraq.I'm sure terrorists passed through many countries, Barney.

[mogrovejo]

MSNBC reports cameras captured a 'white guy in his forties' running from the vehicle...

...Probably the work of tea-baggers upset with Jon Stewart who works for Viacom nearby. Most likely led by Tucker Carlson. Looks like he's as good a bomber as a dancer.

So, are you disappointed?

[jack sommerset]

So, are you disappointed?

You know he is along with many more douchebags like him. They hate america and want to blame america for,,,,,,,,, whatever.

[admiralsnackbar]

You know he is along with many more douchebags like him. They hate america and want to blame america for,,,,,,,,, whatever.

:lol

Sorry.

:lol

[Yonivore]

So you would like the CIA/FBI/Intelligence agencies to track the actions of EVERY person who has flown/is living in Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, and various other countries hostile to us?

No, just the ones they have on their watch lists.

Faisal Shahzad on Homeland Security List Since 1999 (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20004263-10391695.html)


You said the system had failed.

I'm telling you, the system is not DESIGNED to catch people within three days, so it's not a failure.

Were we lucky? Of course. That doesn't mean the system failed.
Depends on of which "system" you speak.

If you're talking about the Homeland Security System, built after September 11, 2001, and designed to detect and prevent terrorist attacks -- before they happen, it couldn't have failed more miserably.

If you're talking about a system of law enforcement techniques used to identify, locate, capture, and detain the perpetrator of a crime, I've seen criminals caught a lot faster than in three days and with a whole lot less forensic evidence than was provided by this piece of jihadi trash and using a whole lot less sophisticated tools than these investigators had at their disposal.

Did it succeed? Well, he is in custody. But, that's more because of his failure than any "system" working.


This is somewhat a poor analogy, but if your car makes it to 500,000 miles, and then craps out, does that mean the car is a 'failure'? Of course not. Are you lucky it lasted that long? Yes.
Unless you're only 500,000 miles into a journey of 600,000 miles and you bought a car that was advertised to last a million miles.

Did that car fail? Absollutely. Are you lucky it lasted that long? Not if you're in the middle of Death Valley on July 15th, when it happens.

We got lucky. If that bomb had detonated, Janet Incompitano would still be trying to fit this into her right-wing, militia, tea bagger narrative and the Islamic terrorist that caused it would be back with his family in Pakistan.

[Yonivore]

So, are you disappointed?
MSNBC's Contessa Brewer sure was:

MSNBC's Contessa Brewer 'Frustrated' That Times Square Bomber Is a Muslim
(http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/05/04/msnbcs-contessa-brewer-frustrated-times-square-bomber-muslim-0)

[ChumpDumper]

That wasn't the question, yoni.

Are you disappointed?

[jack sommerset]

That wasn't the question, yoni.

Are you disappointed?

You said Yoni was disppointed. Could you explain?

[ChumpDumper]

You said Yoni was disppointed. Could you explain?Sure, yoni is disappointed that the bomb didn't go off. Had it done so, he could have had a bigger political football to kick around.

Do you understand?

[jack sommerset]

Sure, yoni is disappointed that the bomb didn't go off. Had it done so, he could have had a bigger political football to kick around.

Do you understand?

No. He never said he was disappointed the bomb did not go off. What makes you think he is?

[ChumpDumper]

No. He never said he was disappointed the bomb did not go off. What makes you think he is?It is quite easy to infer.

Do you understand what an inference is?

[jack sommerset]

It is quite easy to infer.

Do you understand what an inference is?

You can't explain.

[ChumpDumper]

You can't explain.I just did.

You didn't understand.

Sorry.

[jack sommerset]

I just did.

You didn't understand.

Sorry.

No need to be sorry. Yoni never said or implied he was disappointed the bomb did not to go off. When you can, let me know.

[ChumpDumper]

No need to be sorry.
I am sorry you have such a poor understanding of the English language and most other things in general. I wouldn't wish that kind of handicap on anyone.
Yoni never said or implied he was disappointed the bomb did not to go off.Sure he did. He does it with every post.
When you can, let me know.Already did.

[jack sommerset]

Be specific.

[ChumpDumper]

Be specific.Already was.

[ChumpDumper]

It is also very easy to infer that yoni is damning the Bush administration for not doing anything about this guy for eight years and taking his name off the Traveler Enforcement Compliance System list.

[ElNono]

Only because the bomb failed to detonate and they had an intact vehicle with all sorts of forensic evidence. Now, imagine if the SUV were in a couple million pieces intermingled with the debris from surrounding buildings and other nearby vehicles.

The Jihadist would be in Pakistan right now and Janet Incompitano would be searching every militia camp and Tea Party gathering in the nation for that poor sap that changed his shirt a couple blocks from the blast.


I deal in reality. From the point where the vehicle was discovered to the point where they identified and arrested the guy in basically under 72 hours, I thought they did, overall, a good job. You might disagree with me on that, and that's ok.

[jack sommerset]

I deal in reality. From the point where the vehicle was discovered to the point where they identified and arrested the guy in basically under 72 hours, I thought they did, overall, a good job. You might disagree with me on that, and that's ok.

Do you think Yoni was dispppointed the bomb didn't go off?

[jack sommerset]

Dumper of chumps can't prove Yoni is disappointed the NYC times bomb did not go off.

Let me demonstrate.

Dumper of all Chumps, can you prove Yoni wanted the bomb to go off?

[ChumpDumper]

No. Not to your satisfaction.

It was a rather obvious troll post.

Any inference is certainly debatable, I'll stick with mine.

Do you have an example for the Arizona law yet?

[jack sommerset]

It was a rather obvious troll post.

Any inference is certainly debatable, I'll stick with mine.

Do you have an example for the Arizona law yet?

See.

[ChumpDumper]

And?

Does that mean you are going to answer my questions now?

I'll demonstrate.

Will you give me an example of the Arizona law in action?

[jack sommerset]

And?

Does that mean you are going to answer my questions now?

I'll demonstrate.

Will you give me an example of the Arizona law in action?

Nice to see you admit you are wrong.

Look up Sheriff Joe. He says he has been doing it for years. But the law does not go into effect for about 90 days. I'll let you know sometime after.

[Yonivore]

Anyway...


So you would like the CIA/FBI/Intelligence agencies to track the actions of EVERY person who has flown/is living in Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, and various other countries hostile to us?

No, just the ones they have on their watch lists.

Faisal Shahzad on Homeland Security List Since 1999 (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20004263-10391695.html)


You said the system had failed.

I'm telling you, the system is not DESIGNED to catch people within three days, so it's not a failure.

Were we lucky? Of course. That doesn't mean the system failed.
Depends on of which "system" you speak.

If you're talking about the Homeland Security System, built after September 11, 2001, and designed to detect and prevent terrorist attacks -- before they happen, it couldn't have failed more miserably.

If you're talking about a system of law enforcement techniques used to identify, locate, capture, and detain the perpetrator of a crime, I've seen criminals caught a lot faster than in three days and with a whole lot less forensic evidence than was provided by this piece of jihadi trash and using a whole lot less sophisticated tools than these investigators had at their disposal.

Did it succeed? Well, he is in custody. But, that's more because of his failure than any "system" working.


This is somewhat a poor analogy, but if your car makes it to 500,000 miles, and then craps out, does that mean the car is a 'failure'? Of course not. Are you lucky it lasted that long? Yes.
Unless you're only 500,000 miles into a journey of 600,000 miles and you bought a car that was advertised to last a million miles.

Did that car fail? Absollutely. Are you lucky it lasted that long? Not if you're in the middle of Death Valley on July 15th, when it happens.

We got lucky. If that bomb had detonated, Janet Incompitano would still be trying to fit this into her right-wing, militia, tea bagger narrative and the Islamic terrorist that caused it would be back with his family in Pakistan.

[Yonivore]

So, are you disappointed?
MSNBC's Contessa Brewer sure was:

MSNBC's Contessa Brewer 'Frustrated' That Times Square Bomber Is a Muslim
(http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/05/04/msnbcs-contessa-brewer-frustrated-times-square-bomber-muslim-0)

[For the record, mogrovejo wasn't asking me if I was disappointed, (I wasn't, I was relieved); mogrovejo was asking Nbadan if he was disappointed. I merely showed an example of someone who is clearly disappointed the terrorist is a Muslim and not some right-wing, militia, tea bagger.]

[Winehole23]

We got lucky. If that bomb had detonated, Janet Incompitano would still be trying to fit this into her right-wing, militia, tea bagger narrative and the Islamic terrorist that caused it would be back with his family in Pakistan.Wishful thinking?

If not, you should thank St. Jude for prayers answered. No?

[Winehole23]

LE worked. It's obvious you don't like to give it any credit publicly, but LE did its job. They got the guy. (Allegedly.)

[Yonivore]

Wishful thinking?
How so? I'm just, as emphatically as I'm able, trying to make the point that the "system" did not work. It failed. Period.

Failing to recognize that only ensures future failure.


If not, you should thank St. Jude for prayers answered. No?
I don't pray to saints; and, yes, I have prayed to God that the terrorists will fail to hit us again. With the exception of Fort Hood, we've been pretty fortunate.

[Winehole23]

I merely showed an example of someone who is clearly disappointed the terrorist is a Muslim and not some right-wing, militia, tea bagger.It's bad enough that everyone else says tea-bagger all the time.

Why do you do it, Yoni?

[Yonivore]

LE worked. It's obvious you don't like to give it any credit publicly, but LE did its job. They got the guy. (Allegedly.)
That's not the system that failed.

Investigators did a great job. A job made much easier by the terrorist's incompetence.

Do you believe it would have been solved in 72 hours if the bomb had detonated?

Do you believe we would be talking about a failure of law enforcement if the bomb had detonated?

The fact is, the failure of Homeland Security to prevent this act is no less appalling and miserable because the bomb didn't detonate. Their failure is only mitigated by the fact the bomb didn't detonate.

[jack sommerset]

It's bad enough that everyone else says tea-bagger all the time.

Why do you do it, Yoni?

Chicken or the egg. Who started it winehole?

[Yonivore]

It's bad enough that everyone else says tea-bagger all the time.

Why do you do it, Yoni?
It's the euphemism of this administration.

Book: Obama Calls Tea Party 'Tea-Bagger' (http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpps/news/obama-calls-tea-party-tea-bagger-book-dpgoha-20100505-fc_7388609)

Just want to make sure those to whom I'm speaking understand what I'm saying.

[LnGrrrR]

Fair enough point about the Watch list, Yoni. Thanks for the clarification.

I would say that the three day turnaround done by the police was a good job, but I'm not familiar with how average case time turnaround in these situations.

[LnGrrrR]

I would like to state that I think a goal of "no terrorist attacks" is likely impossible. It's like eliminating drug use... Too hard to do.

Given the facts in this case, I will agree that DHS functions are still not maximized effectively. I'm not surprised though. The collect so much info I would be amazed if there wasn't some analysis paralysis.

[Yonivore]

Fair enough point about the Watch list, Yoni. Thanks for the clarification.

I would say that the three day turnaround done by the police was a good job, but I'm not familiar with how average case time turnaround in these situations.
It really depends on available evidence and witnesses.

The SUV was a treasure trove of valuable evidence, starting with the VIN, that led them to the seller, that led them to the e-mail and phone number -- at that point, it was a matter of crunching data.

And, the post-crime investigation isn't the failure about which I was speaking.

[Winehole23]

I don't pray to saintsI was speaking loosely not doctrinally, but perhaps my cliche' was poorly chosen.

The reference to the saint was gratuitous, unworthy of being a general example by reason of its pedigree. Cliched, yet too provincial. Too identifiably RC. I only meant to draw attention to the apparent favorability of the outcome in relation to plausibly related prayers, not to RC per se.


...the "system" did not work. It failed.

Period.How so?


Failing to recognize that only ensures future failure. If this is what failure is like, I'm not sure I ever want to see success.

[Yonivore]

I would like to state that I think a goal of "no terrorist attacks" is likely impossible. It's like eliminating drug use... Too hard to do.

Given the facts in this case, I will agree that DHS functions are still not maximized effectively. I'm not surprised though. The collect so much info I would be amazed if there wasn't some analysis paralysis.
To a certain extent, I agree.

If it turned out this jihadi wasn't on anyone's radar, I wouldn't be as critical. But, we're learning this is a guy they should have been watching very closely.

[Yonivore]

I was speaking loosely not doctrinally, but perhaps my cliche' was poorly chosen.

The reference to the saint was gratuitous, unworthy of being a general example by reason of its pedigree. Cliched, yet too provincial. Too identifiably RC. I only meant to draw attention to the apparent favorability of the outcome in relation to plausibly related prayers, not to RC per se.
Cool.


How so?A terrorist -- on the DHS watch list -- was able to park a car bomb in Times Square and, but for his own incompetence, detonate it.

That's a massive failure of the "system" to detect and prevent terrorist plots.


If this is what failure is like, I'm not sure I ever want to see success.
Success would have had him in custody before he pulled into Times Square.

[Winehole23]

The fact is, the failure of Homeland Security to prevent this act is no less appalling and miserable because the bomb didn't detonate. Their failure is only mitigated by the fact the bomb didn't detonate.Prevention is not a realistic standard for LE, no matter how loudly and how long people clamor for it.

100% prevention is not even a reasonable expectation, despite the fact that 1% failure rate can be catastrophic in real and political terms. JMO. They're gonna get us again. Live with that. LE ain't perfeck. Sometimes it's nobody's fault but the perp.

[jack sommerset]

Cool.Success would have had him in custody before he pulled into Times Square.

Obama wants to give credit to a vendor, citizen of our country for the reason the bomb didn't go off. What a joke.

[Yonivore]

Prevention is not a realistic standard for LE, no matter how loudly and how people clamor for it.
We're obviously talking about two different entities.

Janet Incompitano is the Secretary of Homeland Security; and agency that recently went through a massive overhaul with the expressed purpose of preventing terrorist attacks.

That they were aware of this Jihadi as far back as 1999; That he spent 6 months in Pakistan on his U. S. Passport (something DHS tracks); That he went there with family and returned alone; should have put him at the top of their "watch-this-fucker" list.

It didn't. That's a failure. A failure that almost cost us dearly.


100% prevention is not even a reasonable expectation, despite the fact that 1% failure rate can be catastrophic in real and political terms. JMO.
Like I said, if there wasn't all this KNOWN information pointing at this guy and screaming, "I'm an Islamic Terrorist, you'd better watch me," I'd be less critical.

[Yonivore]

Obama wants to give credit to a vendor, citizen of our country for the reason the bomb didn't go off. What a joke.
That's one lucky street vendor. Him and everyone else in about a 1,000 foot radius around that SUV. If that bomb had functioned as intended, he would have the distinction of being the fatality closest to the detonation.

Unfortunately, that may have put him at the top of a suspects list...after they were able to identify his remains using DNA.

[Winehole23]

Success would have had him in custody before he pulled into Times Square.In a more perfect (counterfactual) world, things would be different.

The fact that the suspected perp is in custody and giving evidence against himself (in the routine course of ordinary LE) wouldn't represent such a tragic failure then, right? :lol

[jack sommerset]

That's one lucky street vendor. Him and everyone else in about a 1,000 foot radius around that SUV. If that bomb had functioned as intended, he would have the distinction of being the fatality closest to the detonation.

Unfortunately, that may have put him at the top of a suspects list...after they were able to identify his remains using DNA.

Obama and his lefty views want voters to think we are safe and no racist group wants to hurt us except repugs and independents. That's 60-70 percent of the people! Our own citizens. That's fucked up!

[LnGrrrR]

In a more perfect (counterfactual) world, things would be different.

The fact that the suspected perp is in custody and giving evidence against himself (in the routine course of ordinary LE) wouldn't represent such a tragic failure then, right? :lol

I think I can see Yonis point though; that DHS was effectively bailed out by the hard work of Law Enforcement officials.

Somewhat like a QB who heaves an ugly bomb to a receiver who's double covered. If the receiver catches the ball, that doesn't go against the fact that it was still a poor decision by the QB, regardless of the outcome.

[Stringer_Bell]

That's one lucky street vendor. Him and everyone else in about a 1,000 foot radius around that SUV. If that bomb had functioned as intended, he would have the distinction of being the fatality closest to the detonation.

I thought they said the manure he used the wrong fertilizer, thus rendering the device capable of only being a fire ball rather than an actual bomb. There was also something up with the propane too, forget what it was though.

To me, saying we're lucky because of incompetence is not as truthful as saying we're lucky these guys aren't just strapping bombs to themselves and blowing us up in streets, gas stations, and malls. That's the real threat, but it seems like the terrorists actually want to live now...which means we can get more awesome information out of them!

[Yonivore]

I thought they said the manure he used the wrong fertilizer, thus rendering the device capable of only being a fire ball rather than an actual bomb. There was also something up with the propane too, forget what it was though.

To me, saying we're lucky because of incompetence is not as truthful as saying we're lucky these guys aren't just strapping bombs to themselves and blowing us up in streets, gas stations, and malls. That's the real threat, but it seems like the terrorists actually want to live now...which means we can get more awesome information out of them!
As I said...


"If the bomb had functioned as intended..."
And, by that, I mean, as intended by the terrorist.

We were lucky.

[Winehole23]

I think I can see Yonis point though; that DHS was effectively bailed out by the hard work of Law Enforcement officials.This is the kernel of my judgment that LE succeeded, despite known institutional ineptitude.

To me maybe that is a case for letting ordinary LE continue to take the lead on terrorism within our borders.

[Yonivore]

This is the kernel of my judgment that LE succeeded, despite known institutional ineptitude.
They succeeded in a post-crime investigation. They're very good at that but, still, it is highly dependent on available evidence which, if the bomb had detonated, would have been scarce. I think you're conflating law enforcement's success in investigating a crime with the federal security agency's failure to stop the crime in the first place.


To me maybe that is a case for letting ordinary LE continue to take the lead on terrorism within our borders.
This wasn't an investigation conducted by ordinary law enforcement agencies using ordinary investigative techniques. They had a whole lot of resources at their disposal.

But, again, that's beside the point that, law enforcement wouldn't have been as successful if the bomb had detonated and, further, the absolute failure of or federal government would have been more glaring.

[ElNono]

Like I said, if there wasn't all this KNOWN information pointing at this guy and screaming, "I'm an Islamic Terrorist, you'd better watch me," I'd be less critical.

But he was being watched. Since 1999, right?

I mean, if you pretend LE to be actually stalking the guy that's a different story...

[ElNono]

But, again, that's beside the point that, law enforcement wouldn't have been as successful if the bomb had detonated and, further, the absolute failure of or federal government would have been more glaring.

That's actually opinion. TBH, this is not the first time we see a device like this, and we even saw one that caught fire. These home-made devices are more of the incendiary type, and don't actually destroy the vehicle in pieces like you suggest.
They certainly cause damage and could cause loss of life.
But don't forget that VIN numbers are not merely etched to the windows, but also engraved in many cart parts (engine, some transmission parts, etc).

[Yonivore]

But he was being watched. Since 1999, right?

I mean, if you pretend LE to be actually stalking the guy that's a different story...
They should have been on his ass from the moment he returned from Pakistan -- after spending 6 months there and leaving his family behind.

This only way this becomes a success for the administration is if they reveal that it was someone, at the behest of the government, that sold the terrorist bomb components they knew wouldn't work.

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised Janet Incompitano hasn't floated that balloon...particularly after saying they let the guy board the plane and then, let it begin taxiing to a runway before making their move.

[Yonivore]

That's actually opinion. TBH, this is not the first time we see a device like this, and we even saw one that caught fire. These home-made devices are more of the incendiary type, and don't actually destroy the vehicle in pieces like you suggest.
They certainly cause damage and could cause loss of life.
But don't forget that VIN numbers are not merely etched to the windows, but also engraved in many cart parts (engine, some transmission parts, etc).
So, you're an expert?

The fact is, if the bomb had worked as intended, it would have had a blast radius of approximately 800-1000 ft, would have obliterated the SUV, throwing it's remains in all directions, co-mingling it with the debris from other cars, buildings, and objects, and would have made the collection of evidence immensely more difficult.

The bomb wasn't designed to be an incendiary device, it was designed to be an explosive device.

[ElNono]

They should have been on his ass from the moment he returned from Pakistan -- after spending 6 months there and leaving his family behind.

This only way this becomes a success for the administration is if they reveal that it was someone, at the behest of the government, that sold the terrorist bomb components they knew wouldn't work.

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised Janet Incompitano hasn't floated that balloon...particularly after saying they let the guy board the plane and then, let it begin taxiing to a runway before making their move.

You seem to think these guys are amateurs. The reason they built the device with off-the-shelf material has everything to do with not raising red flags.
It's also most likely the reason it's been real hard for them to be successful in actually detonating them. Out of 4 attempts, only one ignited.

What do you pretend? To track down every american citizen that travels to Pakistan and buys propane gas? IIRC, around 200,000 people travel to Pakistan every year.

[ElNono]

So, you're an expert?

The fact is, if the bomb had worked as intended, it would have had a blast radius of approximately 800-1000 ft, would have obliterated the SUV, throwing it's remains in all directions, co-mingling it with the debris from other cars, buildings, and objects, and would have made the collection of evidence immensely more difficult.

The bomb wasn't designed to be an incendiary device, it was designed to be an explosive device.

I'm not an expert. I'm merely informed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Glasgow_International_Airport_attack). Like I said, this is not the first time we saw a device like this.

[Yonivore]

IIRC, around 200,000 people travel to Pakistan every year.
How many are on watch lists, stay for 6 months, and leave their family behind when they return to the U.S.?

I bet it's considerably less than 200,000.

By the way, from where'd you get that figure?

[Yonivore]

I'm not an expert. I'm merely informed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Glasgow_International_Airport_attack). Like I said, this is not the first time we saw a device like this.
Did the Glasgow bomb employ a gun safe packed with fertilizer?

[Stringer_Bell]

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised Janet Incompitano hasn't floated that balloon...particularly after saying they let the guy board the plane and then, let it begin taxiing to a runway before making their move.

Are you saying government officials purposefully exposed this terror suspect to innocent Americans in a closed setting before "making their move?" That sounds absolutely ridiculous!

[Yonivore]

Are you saying government officials purposefully exposed this terror suspect to innocent Americans in a closed setting before "making their move?" That sounds absolutely ridiculous!
I agree.

I'll try to find the article I read a couple of day ago that either suggested the DHS allowed the suspect to board the plane so they could figure out if he was alone or that DHS was floating that balloon.

But, back to the point of failures...that is another massive failure of Homeland Security and TSA.

How the fuck does that guy even get to the jetway?

[ElNono]

How many are on watch lists, stay for 6 months, and leave their family behind when they return to the U.S.?

I bet it's considerably less than 200,000.

By the way, from where'd you get that figure?

Hindsight is 20/20. The guy was born in Pakistan. There's actual logical reasons for him to travel there and even leave his family there. And don't forget that technically speaking, Pakistan is actually an ally.

You seem to think that being on a watch list means people should have a FBI car parked in their front yard. The idea behind watch lists are to trigger a red flag if the guy, say, purchases weapons, or makes phone calls to Yemen, or tries to purchase grenades or TNT.

[ElNono]

Sorry, about the 200,000 number, it was quoted in the news about 2 nights ago as the number provided by ICE. If I can actually find a better source, I will.

[ElNono]

Did the Glasgow bomb employ a gun safe packed with fertilizer?

The fertilizer found was not explosive (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100503/ap_on_re_us/us_times_square_car_bomb):

A metal rifle cabinet placed in the cargo area was packed with fertilizer, but NYPD bomb experts believe it was not a type volatile enough to explode like the ammonium nitrate grade fertilizer used in previous terrorist bombings.

[ElNono]

I agree.

I'll try to find the article I read a couple of day ago that either suggested the DHS allowed the suspect to board the plane so they could figure out if he was alone or that DHS was floating that balloon.

But, back to the point of failures...that is another massive failure of Homeland Security and TSA.

How the fuck does that guy even get to the jetway?

When I said they needed to do some things better, this is exactly what I was referring to. I agree the guy shouldn't have been able to get even close to an airport, much less board a plane.

That said, you have to give credit that they actually corrected their mistake before it was too late.

[Yonivore]

Hindsight is 20/20. The guy was born in Pakistan. There's actual logical reasons for him to travel there and even leave his family there. And don't forget that technically speaking, Pakistan is actually an ally.

You seem to think that being on a watch list means people should have a FBI car parked in their front yard.
Only if you put all the information together; on a watch list, stays in Pakistan for 6 months, leaves family behind, and I'm sure there are other facts of which we're unaware.


The idea behind watch lists are to trigger a red flag if the guy, say, purchases weapons, or makes phone calls to Yemen, or tries to purchase grenades or TNT.
Or spends an inordinate amount of time in a country chocked full of terrorist training camps (ally or not, country of origin or not) and then comes back to the U.S. without his family.

Seems to me it's a scenario begging for surveillance.

[Yonivore]

The fertilizer found was not explosive (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100503/ap_on_re_us/us_times_square_car_bomb):

A metal rifle cabinet placed in the cargo area was packed with fertilizer, but NYPD bomb experts believe it was not a type volatile enough to explode like the ammonium nitrate grade fertilizer used in previous terrorist bombings.
Do you think the terrorist believed it was explosive? I do; otherwise, why was it included in the bomb?

That it didn't work isn't the issue. The jihadi built a bomb he intended to be explosive and he drove it to Times Square and attempted to detonate it.

A massive failure of Homeland Security given what we know that they knew about this individual.

[ElNono]

Only if you put all the information together; on a watch list, stays in Pakistan for 6 months, leaves family behind, and I'm sure there are other facts of which we're unaware.

But that's exactly how you improve security. I'm sure everybody is looking at all this info through lens right now and trying to figure out what stands out as something that can be used in other cases in the future. It's a process.


Or spends an inordinate amount of time in a country chocked full of terrorist training camps (ally or not, country of origin or not) and then comes back to the U.S. without his family.

Seems to me it's a scenario begging for surveillance.

Is it? He was born there. He most likely still has family there. There's legitimate reasons for him to go there, stay there for a long time, and even let their wife and kids stay there with the rest of his family.

[Yonivore]

When I said they needed to do some things better, this is exactly what I was referring to. I agree the guy shouldn't have been able to get even close to an airport, much less board a plane.

That said, you have to give credit that they actually corrected their mistake before it was too late.
This was just another in a long list of failures by the federal security agencies in this fiasco.

And, this is where I differentiate between law enforcement and security agencies.

The bomb making it to Times Square was a failure of our security agencies.

The investigation of the crime was a success for law enforcement (though, I've already stated my opinion they were only as successful as they were because of the failure of the bomb to detonate).

The suspect being able to buy a ticket, be issued a boarding pass, pass through TSA security, enter the jetway, and board a plane full of innocent people was another failure of the security agencies.

Janet Incompitano's agency failed miserably.

[ElNono]

Do you think the terrorist believed it was explosive? I do; otherwise, why was it included in the bomb?

That it didn't work isn't the issue. The jihadi built a bomb he intended to be explosive and he drove it to Times Square and attempted to detonate it.

It is an issue when you claim that if the car would have detonated, it would have prevented LE from obtaining the information they needed to catch this guy. You assertion is factually incorrect.


A massive failure of Homeland Security given what we know that they knew about this individual.

Well, you even claim to not even know all they knew about this individual. And obviously what they knew was not sufficient to raise flags. I'm sure they'll learn from this.

[Yonivore]

But that's exactly how you improve security. I'm sure everybody is looking at all this info through lens right now and trying to figure out what stands out as something that can be used in other cases in the future. It's a process.
Barn door, horses, some assembly required.


Is it? He was born there. He most likely still has family there. There's legitimate reasons for him to go there, stay there for a long time, and even let their wife and kids stay there with the rest of his family.
Tell me how many other Pakistani-Americans, already on a DHS watch list, engaged in a similar pattern of events in the past 10 years and, if it's more than a couple of dozen -- and all those other Pakistani-Americans aren't being surveilled -- I'll concede this was completely unforeseeable.

[Stringer_Bell]

How the fuck does that guy even get to the jetway?

Please see...


http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/05/05/no.fly.list.questions/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn


Are you fucking serious? Paying for a ticket in cash hours before the flight? Meanwhile, normal passengers get random searches and crosschecked constantly for this no-fly list. The list should refresh on its own, right? I mean if babies can get kicked off flights for being on the no-fly list...why the fuck wasn't the CIA/FBI/DHS pushing for airlines to be vigilant and "refresh" their lists? Wasn't there a failed terrorist attack a few days ago with a missing driver?!?!?!!

How this dude was caught and all he's admitted is so convenient, someone needs to put a bow on this already.

It's missing the quote from the article I included in the original post, but you get the point. However, to be fair, this is the same system we had under Bush...it's probably just the people running it now are dumber or aren't as vigilant as they should be considering we had an underwear bomber in December. FUCK!!!!

[ElNono]

This was just another in a long list of failures by the federal security agencies in this fiasco.

And, this is where I differentiate between law enforcement and security agencies.

The bomb making it to Times Square was a failure of our security agencies.

The investigation of the crime was a success for law enforcement (though, I've already stated my opinion they were only as successful as they were because of the failure of the bomb to detonate).


Your opinion has been proven wrong.


The suspect being able to buy a ticket, be issued a boarding pass, pass through TSA security, enter the jetway, and board a plane full of innocent people was another failure of the security agencies.

Janet Incompitano's agency failed miserably.

True. That said, the type of standards you require to commence surveillance would have been met since 1999, when this administration was not in power, and neither was the previous one. If you're blaming these guys for inaction then you're also automatically blaming the previous guys for the exact same thing.

[Yonivore]

It is an issue when you claim that if the car would have detonated, it would have prevented LE from obtaining the information they needed to catch this guy. You assertion is factually incorrect.
That's not what I said or claimed.

If the bomb had detonated, it would have been exponentially more difficult for law enforcement to collect evidence and, as such, I don't think they would have effected an arrest as quickly.

In fact, I think if the bomb had detonated, they would have chased leads -- many driven by the false narrative advanced by Mayor Bloomberg and seemingly supported by the now irrelevant security footage of that white guy -- down rabbit holes and completely hampered their investigation.

As a result, I think this terrorist would now be in Pakistan with his family.


Well, you even claim to not even know all they knew about this individual. And obviously what they knew was not sufficient to raise flags. I'm sure they'll learn from this.
Being sufficient to raise flags isn't the same as should have raised flags.

Look, you seem intent on defending Janet Incompitano and the rest of our Department of Homeland Security apparatus. Fine, go ahead.

In my opinion, they failed this country miserably and, but for an equally incompetent terrorist, we would all be mourning another dozens, or hundreds, of New Yorkers.

[Yonivore]

Your opinion has been proven wrong.
It can't be proven wrong without a detonation.

Proven wrong, indeed.


True. That said, the type of standards you require to commence surveillance would have been met since 1999, when this administration was not in power, and neither was the previous one. If you're blaming these guys for inaction then you're also automatically blaming the previous guys for the exact same thing.
This guy didn't attempt a terrorist act when the other guys were in office. How do you know he wasn't being surveilled by the previous guys?

[ElNono]

Tell me how many other Pakistani-Americans, already on a DHS watch list, engaged in a similar pattern of events in the past 10 years and, if it's more than a couple of dozen -- and all those other Pakistani-Americans aren't being surveilled -- I'll concede this was completely unforeseeable.

You know I'm not privy to that information. But neither are you.
I can tell you, however, that I've spent months overseas with my family in another country. And there's plenty of legitimate reasons why a person born in another country would leave the family there. Off the top of my head, his wife could have gotten sick, and he couldn't avoid losing any more work time.
They could have had a fight and she decided to divorce and stay.
I mean, now that you know the guy was a bad guy, you don't think about any of the common scenarios. You're looking at this with 20/20 glasses and you have it all figured out. It doesn't work like that.

[ElNono]

That's not what I said or claimed.

If the bomb had detonated, it would have been exponentially more difficult for law enforcement to collect evidence and, as such, I don't think they would have effected an arrest as quickly.

In fact, I think if the bomb had detonated, they would have chased leads -- many driven by the false narrative advanced by Mayor Bloomberg and seemingly supported by the now irrelevant security footage of that white guy -- down rabbit holes and completely hampered their investigation.

As a result, I think this terrorist would now be in Pakistan with his family.


We now know that if the bomb would have detonated, it would have taken LE the exact same amount of effort to obtain the VIN number than it did when it didn't detonate. And I'm pretty sure LE followed all the leads they could gather regardless of the lack of detonation.


Being sufficient to raise flags isn't the same as should have raised flags.

There's obviously a threshold. It's simply unrealistic to track down every person. I'm sure those rules are being reviewed in light of this incident.


Look, you seem intent on defending Janet Incompitano and the rest of our Department of Homeland Security apparatus. Fine, go ahead.

In my opinion, they failed this country miserably and, but for an equally incompetent terrorist, we would all be mourning another dozens, or hundreds, of New Yorkers.

I'm having a conversation with you. I couldn't care less about DHS or the head of any agency. I didn't vote for them and I don't work for them.

[Yonivore]

You know I'm not privy to that information. But neither are you.

I can tell you, however, that I've spent months overseas with my family in another country.
While you were on a watch list and in a country that is known to be a safe haven for terrorist training camps?


And there's plenty of legitimate reasons why a person born in another country would leave the family there. Off the top of my head, his wife could have gotten sick, and he couldn't avoid losing any more work time.
Is that the case here?


They could have had a fight and she decided to divorce and stay.
Is that the case here?


I mean, now that you know the guy was a bad guy, you don't think about any of the common scenarios. You're looking at this with 20/20 glasses and you have it all figured out. It doesn't work like that.
This guy was on a watch list, visited a country with terrorist training camps, stayed a long time, left his family behind. Oh yeah, he's a Muslim.

Tell me how many others are so situated and we can continue to defend Janet Incompitano. Otherwise, I don't see this as anything but a massive failure by DHS -- only mitigated by the fact the terrorist was more incompetent than our own government.

Look, we're not going to agree. If we can't argue new positions, we might as well agree to disagree and move on.

[Yonivore]

We now know that if the bomb would have detonated, it would have taken LE the exact same amount of effort to obtain the VIN number than it did when it didn't detonate. And I'm pretty sure LE followed all the leads they could gather regardless of the lack of detonation.
How do you know that?


There's obviously a threshold. It's simply unrealistic to track down every person. I'm sure those rules are being reviewed in light of this incident.
You think?


I'm having a conversation with you. I couldn't care less about DHS or the head of any agency. I didn't vote for them and I don't work for them.
But, you're just saying the same things over and over again. I get your argument, I simply disagree and nothing you've said has changed my opinion on the matter.

[ElNono]

It can't be proven wrong without a detonation.

Proven wrong, indeed.


So you claim more expertise than the NYPD explosive experts? I'm sorry if I just don't take you seriously on this one.


This guy didn't attempt a terrorist act when the other guys were in office. How do you know he wasn't being surveilled by the previous guys?

Well, we did learn he was in a watch list since 1999, didn't we?

[Yonivore]

So you claim more expertise than the NYPD explosive experts? I'm sorry if I just don't take you seriously on this one.
A.) The NYPD expert was talking about the amount of evidence that would have been intact had the bomb performed like the Glasgow device.

B.) I'm talking about the amount of evidence that would have remained had the bomb performed as the terrorist intended.


Well, we did learn he was in a watch list since 1999, didn't we?
Maybe he was being watched.

[ElNono]

How do you know that?

The Glasgow car had the exact same components, and that one did detonate.
The car was intact after the incident.


But, you're just saying the same things over and over again. I get your argument, I simply disagree and nothing you've said has changed my opinion on the matter.

Because you keep on repeating the same fallacies over and over.
You:
A) Claim the car would have exploded instead of merely igniting, when actual bomb experts claim otherwise.
B) Claim LE could not have gathered evidence if the car would have detonated, when we already experienced a similar detonation and the car was basically left intact.
C) Claim that a guy born in Pakistan with an American citizenship that flew back to his home country and then came back could only do so because he was plotting something, when the reality is that there's plenty of legitimate reasons to do such a trip.

Furthermore:
D) You admit you don't have all the information that DHS had.
E) You admit you don't know how many other Pakistani-Americans were in the same situation
F) You admit you don't know if he was under surveillance previously.

But none of that prevents you from claiming you have it all figured out.
It's actually quite comical really.

[ElNono]

A.) The NYPD expert was talking about the amount of evidence that would have been intact had the bomb performed like the Glasgow device.

B.) I'm talking about the amount of evidence that would have remained had the bomb performed as the terrorist intended.

We're dealing in reality here. The bomb would have operated exactly like the Glasgow device. Wether it was because this individual was an amateur or incompetent, it's really irrelevant.

[Yonivore]

The Glasgow car had the exact same components, and that one did detonate.
The car was intact after the incident.
Fertilizer too?


Because you keep on repeating the same fallacies over and over.
You:
A) Claim the car would have exploded instead of merely igniting, when actual bomb experts claim otherwise.
Nope, never claimed that. It's fairly obvious the bomb wasn't capable of exploding. That doesn't mean it wasn't intended to be an explosive device by the manufacturer.


B) Claim LE could not have gathered evidence if the car would have detonated, when we already experienced a similar detonation and the car was basically left intact.
Nope, never claimed that, either. I said that if the bomb had detonated as intended by the terrorist, it would have been exponentially more difficult to collect evidence and that would have possibly delayed investigators in identifying and locating the suspect.


C) Claim that a guy born in Pakistan with an American citizenship that flew back to his home country and then came back could only do so because he was plotting something, when the reality is that there's plenty of legitimate reasons to do such a trip.
Nope, again, you've mischaracterized my argument.

You're leaving out the element of him already being under suspicion and on a watch list.


Furthermore:
D) You admit you don't have all the information that DHS had.
If there were more information that would exculpate DHS, you can bet Incompitano would have it out there. I suspect the information to which I'm not privvy is only more damning of their failure to detect this terrorist before he attempted an act.



E) You admit you don't know how many other Pakistani-Americans were in the same situation
So, neither do you. I'd be interested to know.


F) You admit you don't know if he was under surveillance previously.
Nope. Not that it matters. We know he wasn't under surveillance when he drove the bomb to Times Square. And, we relatively sure he didn't commit a prior terrorist act so, I'm not sure what relevance you statement has.


But none of that prevents you from claiming you have it all figured out.
Because most of what you just said doesn't represent my side of the argument at all.


It's actually quite comical really.
Well, at least you can laugh at yourself.

[Yonivore]

We're dealing in reality here. The bomb would have operated exactly like the Glasgow device. Wether it was because this individual was an amateur or incompetent, it's really irrelevant.
What is irrelevant is how the bomb would or did perform.

The failure is in not detecting this terrorist, before he committed the act.

[ChumpDumper]

I personally think yoni is being too hard on the Bush administration for failing to track this guys every move during its term and taking him off the Traveler Enforcement Compliance System list in 2008.

I don't know exactly what the Obama DHS was supposed to do with this guy once the Bush DHS decided not to bother anymore. Yoni should explain exactly what Bush did wrong and what Obama should have done to correct Bush's horrible fuckup.

[Yonivore]

By the way, I read your linked Wikipedia entry on the Glasgow event. No mention of fertilizer.

So, unless you can show me where the Glasgow terrorists had constructed a device identical to the Times Square SUV bomb, I'm calling bullshit on this statement:


The Glasgow car had the exact same components,...

[ChumpDumper]

Yoni, why did the Bush administration take Shahzad off the Traveler Enforcement Compliance System list? Everything I've read says he was on the list until 2008.

[ElNono]

By the way, I read your linked Wikipedia entry on the Glasgow event. No mention of fertilizer.

So, unless you can show me where the Glasgow terrorists had constructed a device identical to the Times Square SUV bomb, I'm calling bullshit on this statement:

There was no fertilizer in Glasgow or London.
Then again, the fertilizer this guy used was not explosive, and you admitted as much. Regardless of intent, the fact is the actual active components of the device were the same: gas, propane and nails.

Should the Times Square device would have detonated, would it have caused an explosion and destroyed the car into tiny pieces as you claim?

It's a very simple question, Yoni.

[ElNono]

What is irrelevant is how the bomb would or did perform. The failure is in not detecting this terrorist, before he committed the act.

So now the bomb doesn't matter. :lol

What actual evidence do you have that this guy was a threat, other than your perceived opinion that whoever travels to their native country and are on a government watch list are a de facto bad guy?

[Yonivore]

So now the bomb doesn't matter. :lol
The performance of the bomb is irrelevant to whether or not the Department of Homeland Security failed to detect and prevent a terrorist act.

When it's time for the bomb to perform, the DHS failure has already occurred.


What actual evidence do you have that this guy was a threat, other than your perceived opinion that whoever travels to their native country and are on a government watch list are a de facto bad guy?
Sources: Shahzad Had Contact With Awlaki, Taliban Chief, and Mumbai Massacre Mastermind (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/faisal-shahzad-contact-awlaki-taliban-mumbai-massacre-mastermind/story?id=10575061)

If Janet had been watching him or using the Bush-era NSA surveillance programs demonized by her boss, she might have discovered this before Times Square.

[ElNono]

Nope, never claimed that. It's fairly obvious the bomb wasn't capable of exploding. That doesn't mean it wasn't intended to be an explosive device by the manufacturer.



Only because the bomb failed to detonate and they had an intact vehicle with all sorts of forensic evidence.


Nope, never claimed that, either. I said that if the bomb had detonated as intended by the terrorist, it would have been exponentially more difficult to collect evidence and that would have possibly delayed investigators in identifying and locating the suspect.



They succeeded in a post-crime investigation. They're very good at that but, still, it is highly dependent on available evidence which, if the bomb had detonated, would have been scarce. I think you're conflating law enforcement's success in investigating a crime with the federal security agency's failure to stop the crime in the first place.

And BTW, if 'the bomb had detonated as intended by the terrorist' it would have still not exploded. I think you mean to say 'if the bomb was actually built the way the terrorist intended'. Then again, it was built how it was built.


Nope, again, you've mischaracterized my argument.



Only if you put all the information together; on a watch list, stays in Pakistan for 6 months, leaves family behind, and I'm sure there are other facts of which we're unaware.


You're leaving out the element of him already being under suspicion and on a watch list.

I'm not leaving it out. I just don't think you understand what being on a watch list means. It doesn't mean mandatory surveillance for life. He was ultimately dropped from the list, so whatever they suspected from him didn't seem to carry much weight.


If there were more information that would exculpate DHS, you can bet Incompitano would have it out there. I suspect the information to which I'm not privvy is only more damning of their failure to detect this terrorist before he attempted an act.

I don't understand what they need to be exculpated from exactly. They admitted they screwed up with the no-fly list. And ultimately they captured the guy.


So, neither do you. I'd be interested to know.

Sure, but I'm not claiming that it's obvious this guy was a bad guy because he traveled to Pakistan and came back 6 months later.


Nope. Not that it matters. We know he wasn't under surveillance when he drove the bomb to Times Square. And, we relatively sure he didn't commit a prior terrorist act so, I'm not sure what relevance you statement has.

That didn't prevent you from advancing the idea that maybe he was under surveillance before, did it?


Because most of what you just said doesn't represent my side of the argument at all.

That's indeed the problem. You don't have an argument. You merely have taken a side.

[ElNono]

The performance of the bomb is irrelevant to whether or not the Department of Homeland Security failed to detect and prevent a terrorist act.

When it's time for the bomb to perform, the DHS failure has already occurred.

It's been already stated, but your expectation of 100% prevention is simply unrealistic. There will be more of this, under different administrations, and you better get used to it.


Sources: Shahzad Had Contact With Awlaki, Taliban Chief, and Mumbai Massacre Mastermind (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/faisal-shahzad-contact-awlaki-taliban-mumbai-massacre-mastermind/story?id=10575061)

If Janet had been watching him or using the Bush-era NSA surveillance programs demonized by her boss, she might have discovered this before Times Square.

The guy itself admitted as much (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/07/world/middleeast/07awlaki-.html):
The Pakistani-American man accused of trying to detonate a car bomb in Times Square has told investigators that he drew inspiration from Anwar al-Awlaki, a Yemeni-American cleric whose militant online lectures have been a catalyst for several recent attacks and plots, an American official said Thursday.

FWIW, there has been a presidential order for the assassination of Awlaki. It was a big deal back when it happened, because it was the first publicly known assassination order for an American citizen.
You probably glossed over that while bitching about Obama...

[Yonivore]

It appears you and Robert Gibbs are similarly afflicted:


White House: Let's 'celebrate the success' of catching Times Square bomber (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/White-House-Lets-celebrate-the-success-of-catching-Times-Square-bomber-92960729.html)


In light of the terrorist attack in Ft. Hood, Texas and the attempted terrorist bombing of a passenger jet in Detroit on Christmas Day, many people are concerned that a Taliban-trained radical was able to operate freely in this country, place a car bomb in Times Square and very nearly escape the United States before being caught. But the White House wants you to "celebrate the success" of the apprehension of Times Square bomber Faisal Shahzad. At Wednesday's briefing, press secretary Robert Gibbs was asked this question:


After the Christmas Day incident, the president used the words "systemic failure." Would you put this suspect’s ability to plan a bomb and almost get away from the country in the same category as a systemic failure?

Not at all, Gibbs answered. Shahzad was identified and taken into custody quite quickly, and federal, state and local authorities worked together on the investigation. "So in many ways, we want to celebrate the success of, rightly so, of what law enforcement was able to do," Gibbs said.

The reporter persisted. "Well, if it wasn't as grave, say, as a systemic failure, would you concede then there were some failures that allowed both the planning of the bomb and his ability to re-enter the U.S. and plant this bomb and almost get away -- there were a number of failures?"

Gibbs claimed not to understand the question. "I guess I would just ask you to be more specific about each one of your -- I don't want to try to parse what you’re saying, but I don't -- " he said.

The reporter spelled it out for the press secretary: Shahzad left the U.S. He went to Pakistan, came back, was interviewed by authorities on his return, made a bomb, drove to Times Square, where he planted the bomb, etc.

Gibbs still claimed not to understand. "I guess I’m not entirely sure what would -- I'm not the police commissioner for New York. I’m not the mayor of New York…"

Gibbs never answered the question. He wouldn't even say whether the president would order a full-scale investigation of the security lapses involved. As for the actual mayor of New York, Michael Bloomberg, Shahzad's near-escape is a matter of more concern. "Clearly the guy was on the plane and shouldn't have been," Bloomberg said. "We got lucky."

[ElNono]

It appears you and Robert Gibbs are similarly afflicted:

If you think we are, you have reading problems. I admitted that there were things that needed to be improved on, including the failure of having the guy board a plane. I honestly believe that. I also don't believe everything is 100% preventable, and that everyone involved didn't do a good job catching the guy after the incident.

[Yonivore]

It's been already stated, but your expectation of 100% prevention is simply unrealistic. There will be more of this, under different administrations, and you better get used to it.
Where do I claim to expect 100% prevention?

I merely suggest this terrorist should have been detected before he was able to drive a car bomb to Time Square. I suspect the more we find out the more I will be convinced of that.


The guy itself admitted as much (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/07/world/middleeast/07awlaki-.html):
The Pakistani-American man accused of trying to detonate a car bomb in Times Square has told investigators that he drew inspiration from Anwar al-Awlaki, a Yemeni-American cleric whose militant online lectures have been a catalyst for several recent attacks and plots, an American official said Thursday.

FWIW, there has been a presidential order for the assassination of Awlaki. It was a big deal back when it happened, because it was the first publicly known assassination order for an American citizen.
You probably glossed over that while bitching about Obama...
I don't get your point.

I'm all for killing the bastards. However, I confess to being a bit perplexed by Obama's willingness to murder but not apply enhanced interrogation techniques.

[Yonivore]

If you think we are, you have reading problems. I admitted that there were things that needed to be improved on, including the failure of having the guy board a plane. I honestly believe that. I also don't believe everything is 100% preventable, and that everyone involved didn't do a good job catching the guy after the incident.
But, like Gibbs, you're unable to recognize the colossal failure of the DHS to prevent a car bomb from being driven into Times Square by a person who was, at one time, on the federal terrorism radar.

[ElNono]

Where do I claim to expect 100% prevention?
I merely suggest this terrorist should have been detected before he was able to drive a car bomb to Time Square. I suspect the more we find out the more I will be convinced of that.

You don't say how. You merely mention some points that you think are obvious but they're not obvious at all.


I don't get your point.
I'm all for killing the bastards. However, I confess to being a bit perplexed by Obama's willingness to murder but not apply enhanced interrogation techniques.

The point is that the administration is well aware of Awlaki and his influence. To the point of ordering his assassination. And they didn't need the illegal NSA program to know as much, imagine that!
And the difference is that Awlaki is a self-proclaimed enemy of this country and there's plenty of evidence on his plotting against America.

[ElNono]

But, like Gibbs, you're unable to recognize the colossal failure of the DHS to prevent a car bomb from being driven into Times Square by a person who was, at one time, on the federal terrorism radar.

You keep avoiding to say what telling signs this guy gave to warrant being surveilled after being dropped from that radar.

[Yonivore]

Meanwhile, we're finding out how lucky the police were, as well:

Disgraceful Leaking (http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YWM4ZWNhOWZjMzFlYWYxNzIxN2UwZmM1ODljZDdhODE=) [Andy McCarthy]


As I explained in this post (http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NzE3NmEwZWRkOWUyMTdjNmNkNWQ5ZmE4MGU3ZjcxZmQ) last evening, there seems to have been no good reason to file the arrest complaint against Faisal Shahzad publicly, and to have done so in a way that showed he was cooperating. All that does is alert co-conspirators that they've been compromised and should think about fleeing and destroying evidence.

It turns out that I didn't know the half of it. This comes from an NPR report (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126551312&ft=1&f=3) (and thanks to Greg McNeal for bringing it to my attention):


[W]hat hasn’t been apparent until now is how news coverage of this story fundamentally changed the investigation. Law enforcement officials usually say they can't talk to reporters about an ongoing investigation, but there were leaks in this case from the beginning — partly because of the dynamic between two powerful law enforcement forces in New York City....

Details about the Times Square investigation were all over the local newspapers, even as authorities were still trying to puzzle out who was responsible. Any element of surprise that law enforcement might have had was evaporating. To be fair, law enforcement was partly to blame. In many cases, it was the source of the information and leaks. But there seemed to be an extra level of frustration about the leaks in this case. As one law enforcement official told NPR, "Our operational plans were being driven by the media, instead of the other way around. And that's not good."

He said they watched in horror as news organizations started talking about the fact that the vehicle identification number on the Nissan Pathfinder used in the botched bombing had been taken off the windshield. Then another report said that wouldn't matter, as authorities could find the VIN on other parts of the car. A short time later, the fact that they had found the number was reported. The coverage was providing a lot of clues about the direction the case was going.

On Monday afternoon, basically a day-and-a-half after the attack, a news organization reported that law enforcement officials were looking for an American citizen of Pakistani descent from Shelton, Conn. (NPR also had the information but didn't report it out of concern that it would affect the investigation before Shahzad's arrest.) Shahzad mentioned that news report after he was in police custody, according to two law enforcement officials familiar with the case. He told the arresting officers that the moment he read it was the moment he knew it was only a matter of time before authorities would close in on him. He also assumed from the report that he was under surveillance. That's an important detail, because surveillance is only effective if people don't know they are being watched. "It was like watching an episode of 24 in real time," a law enforcement official said. The only problem was that Shahzad was able to watch it, too.

Then it got worse: Reporters started showing up at Shahzad's house in Shelton, waiting for the arrest to happen. Shahzad was actually up the road at a ramshackle apartment he had rented in Bridgeport. That's where officers were watching him — but apparently that also was leaked. A TV reporter showed up there and waited.

For the arresting officers, there was another wrinkle. They knew from running Shahzad's name through databases that he had purchased a gun in March. If the suspect was following the media reports, he knew the noose was tightening and might try to shoot his way out. They had to fundamentally change how they were going to approach the house to prepare for that possibility. But Shahzad surprised them by leaving the apartment. He went to a local supermarket and they lost track of him. NYPD Commissioner Ray Kelly told NPR on Wednesday that they lost him for about three hours. When they finally caught up with Shahzad just before midnight Monday on a plane bound for Dubai, he smiled at the officers and said, "I've been expecting you. Are you NYPD or FBI?"
Tipping off reporters so they can show up at a police stake-out of an armed terrorist's home? Mind-boggling.

On your other points, I avoided nothing; I said what I thought warranted acute interest in this scumbag. I also said that as time goes along, we'll probably learn more that will support that position than will exculpate the DHS for not being more interested.

Also, this guy was more than "influenced" by terrorists, he had contacts with them; was trained by them; and counted them among his family's friends.

[ElNono]

Meanwhile, we're finding out how lucky the police were, as well:

A story with unnamed sources from the National Review... nice. Par for the course.


On your other points, I avoided nothing; I said what I thought warranted acute interest in this scumbag. I also said that as time goes along, we'll probably learn more that will support that position than will exculpate the DHS for not being more interested.

Do you contemplate the possibility that maybe we won't? It's a rhetorical question, BTW. As I said, you're not posting an argument here. You already made up your mind, and are merely grasping at any straw to support your 'side'.


Also, this guy was more than "influenced" by terrorists, he had contacts with them; was trained by them; and counted them among his family's friends.

Except we didn't know that until we caught him and he admitted as much?
I don't claim he's not a bad guy. I dispute the notion he was easily detectable.

[Yonivore]

Good Night, Gracie.

[LnGrrrR]

This is the kernel of my judgment that LE succeeded, despite known institutional ineptitude.

To me maybe that is a case for letting ordinary LE continue to take the lead on terrorism within our borders.

True, but I don't think that's the point Yoni was trying to make, as I read it anyways. (Note: Haven't read upthread of this yet, so he may have commented.)

Anyways, the argument over whether traditional LE should combat terrorism within our borders, or whether the DHS should, doesn't speak to how effectively or ineffectively the DHS handled THIS case. Although the latter may influence the former.

I can see how an overarching body MAY be able to tie together strings which local PDs just don't have the capability to do. Whether they can effectively remains to be seen.

[LnGrrrR]

Anyways, there's no way to know whether the warning flags this guy raised were unique, making him easily identifiable and someone to keep a close eye on, or whether there are hundreds or thousands of citizens in the same situation as him, making it impossible to keep a close eye on all of them.

Without that info, we're left with vague suppositions.

[Yonivore]

Anyways, there's no way to know whether the warning flags this guy raised were unique, making him easily identifiable and someone to keep a close eye on, or whether there are hundreds or thousands of citizens in the same situation as him, making it impossible to keep a close eye on all of them.

Without that info, we're left with vague suppositions.
Sure, there's a way to know; just don't expect those, with that knowledge, to share it unless it exculpates them.

But, absolutely, there's a way to know whether this guy is one of many or one of few that behaved as he did leading up to the May 1st attempt. I suspect we'll know more about the jihadi, his actions, and whether or not they should have reasonably been expected to have drawn scrutiny from Janet Incompitano, as time goes on.

I also believe we'll be able to judge how incompetent was this administration by observing from where the information comes. If the administration keeps tap-dancing around the failure, as did Gibbs at the news conference, leaving the public to get information from other sources (to whom it is probably leaked by others, in the administration) what eventually reaches the public will not be favorable to Janet and her boss.

Time will tell.

[ChumpDumper]

It's not like Obama received a memo titled "Faisal Shahzad determined to strike in US" then did nothing about it.

That would be criminal.

[word]

i think it was domestic.

"three propane tanks, fireworks, two filled 5-gallon gasoline containers, and two clocks with batteries, electrical wire and other components"

:downspin:

[The Cougar]

that guy needs to get his money back, seriously he must have went to the terrorist equivalent of career point

[Winehole23]

Went to high school, didn't do great/now I gotta have more cash, education is what I'm looking at.

[Nbadan]

This attack was so amateurish it should raise serious red flags...this was the shoe bomber multiplied by a factor of 10...this justifies a trillion dollar war on terror?

[ChumpDumper]

This attack was so amateurish it should raise serious red flags.Red flags indicating what?

[Winehole23]

I'm all for killing the bastards. However, I confess to being a bit perplexed by Obama's willingness to murder but not apply enhanced interrogation techniques.At first blush, it is puzzling. Maybe torture is more shocking to the conscience of the world than murder.

[ChumpDumper]

Killing works. Torture doesn't.

[Winehole23]

How succinct (http://dictionary.die.net/succinctly).

[Winehole23]

The power of fortune is confessed only by the miserable, for the happy impute all their success to prudence and merit.

—Swift, Thoughts On Various Subjects

[Winehole23]

(double post)

[Winehole23]

Lucky people are bad hands at correcting their faults; they always believe that they are right when fortune backs up their vice or folly. -- La Rochefoucauld, Reflections; or Sentences and Maxims (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/9105/9105-h/9105-h.htm)

[Yonivore]

At first blush, it is puzzling. Maybe torture is more shocking to the conscience of the world than murder.
Enhanced interrogation techniques produce more actionable intelligence than a bullet to the head.

[Winehole23]

I didn't mean shocking to your conscience, Yoni. I already knew you were cool with it.