Our last championship team vs this year's team

[GSH]

I was thinking about how this year's team stacks up against our last championship team from 06-07. There's nothing really new there, but it does kind of put some things into perspective to look at the two teams side by side:

The Big 3 are a few years older, but it doesn't really show up too much in their numbers, except for Tim's blocks and boards being a little lower. McDyess and Blair are better than Oberto and Elson were, in my opinion. All things considered, just about a wash between the two teams.

Jacques Vaughn and Benoh Udrih vs. George Hill and Garrett Temple.
Hill is much better than Vaughn, and Temple is getting about the same minutes as Benoh - almost none. Definite plus to this year's squad, though, because of Hill. But it's kind of misleading, since he's playing the 2 a lot of the time. We really don't have a true backup PG.

Bonner vs. Bonner. He was a non-factor then. He's a non-factor now, but with a lot more minutes. In '07 Bonner got about 3 minutes per game in the playoffs. Now he's getting about 15 minutes - not because he's a lot better, but because there's no one else to put in.

Finley and Barry vs Jefferson and Bogans. This is where things begin to break down. Finley and Barry had their shortcomings on defense, but I'm not sure they were any worse than Bogans and Jefferson. Finley played well through that post-season. He wasn't as athletic as RJ, but he knocked down shots. Barry contributed more than Bogans offensively. All things considered, I'd take the two that spread the opposing defenses over our current duo.

That leaves Mason and Mahinmi vs Bowen and Horry. Yeah... oops. Two hard-assed, smart defenders on that '07 team, that this team lacks. Even at 36 years old, Horry could come in and give Amare hell for 10-15 minutes a game. And Bowen would have made sure that Richardson didn't get his 20 points. Hell, I think Bowen right now could defend Richardson better than anyone has in the first 2 games. Mason and Mahinmi, obviously, can't do any of that.

Finley and Bowen shot a combined .430 from the 3P line in those playoffs. Horry and Barry shot a relatively dismal .325 from the arc, but that was great shooting compared to Bonner, Bogans, and Mason's combined .212 in these playoffs. Right now I would kill to have a couple of guys who would knock down one out of three of their 3-pointers.

I think a lot of people are expecting too much of our Big 3. We aren't going to lock down on defense like that '07 team, because there's no one to step into Bowen's and Horry's shoes. And we really need two players to step up and start hitting 3-pointers. Without that, Tim, Tony, and Manu would have to be a lot better than they were in '07. And that seems like a ridiculous expectation, considering they were good enough to win it all that year.

[UnWantedTheory]

I pretty much agree....

[the crimson blur]

Bruce Bowen and Robert Horry are two of the greatest role players of all time.

Not easy to replace.

[m33p0]

Bones was automatic from 3 point land. when it's on... it's ON.

and Horry's exploits were so legendary that he can get by on reputation alone.

[TDMVPDPOY]

dude you cant compare this team to the championship teams of the past, reason being those championship teams had solid backups who can play multiple roles when needed, where as this years team is missing a few pieces

[mudyez]

Bruce Bowen and Robert Horry are two of the greatest role players of all time.

Not easy to replace.

+1

lets search for two players of that caliber in the whole league: a big and a small roleplayer, that may get their numbers retired!

I dont see any!

[baseline bum]

Vastly different teams. All three of Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, and Tony Parker were superior players at the time. TD was much more mobile, Manu didn't have a broken nose, and TP was in perfect health. Obviously Bowen was an enormous upgrade over Jefferson, for his defense, basketball IQ, toughness and intimidation, and his shooting. On the flip side, Dice is a significant upgrade over Oberto in pretty much everything but passing and Hill is a lot better than Barry IMO (though maybe not for this specific matchup with the Suns, where Barry was an assassin). This team has no swiss-army knife bigman like the 07 team had with Rob though. Dejuan's a great prospect who can make a huge impact on a given night, but Rob was the king of doing the little things that added up, and he did it consistently.

[m33p0]

main difference...

that team was expected to win a championship.

[21_Blessings]

Main difference is Tim Donaghy is no longer employed by the NBA. In 07 you had him rigging games in the Spurs favor and Stern's lackey Stu Jackson unjustly suspending Phoenix's best player for the most crucial game of the post-season. Haha, what a joke that 2007 title was.

Not only that the Lakers were in rebuild mode back then. After the Lakers reemergence San Antonio immediately began to wilt away into irrelevance.

[admiralsnackbar]

The trouble with playing the corruption card is that it discredits your own team's achievements as much as our own.

[ceperez]

Well here's the irony, weren't Channing Frye - A big that can shoot 3's and Grant Hill - A good perimeter defender both available in free agency when we were retiring Bowen and Horry?

I think the tables have turned and these guys have the role players that give us a lot of pain!

[yourtehclay]

The trouble with playing the corruption card is that it discredits your own team's achievements as much as our own.


*headshot*

[8FOR!3]

Main difference is Tim Donaghy is no longer employed by the NBA. In 07 you had him rigging games in the Spurs favor and Stern's lackey Stu Jackson unjustly suspending Phoenix's best player for the most crucial game of the post-season. Haha, what a joke that 2007 title was.

Not only that the Lakers were in rebuild mode back then. After the Lakers reemergence San Antonio immediately began to wilt away into irrelevance.

Yes, the league wanted the Spurs to win so desperately, they just wanted more money I'm sure. Oh wait, that makes zero sense. Delete your account. :nope

[GSH]

dude you cant compare this team to the championship teams of the past, reason being those championship teams had solid backups who can play multiple roles when needed, where as this years team is missing a few pieces



That was sort of the whole point. People keep saying that "The Big 3 Have To Play Better". Crap. The Big 3 are playing pretty damned good - and good enough to win a championship, if they had the support. Tim's knees limit him a little bit, but his numbers are still VERY close to the same. Tony may be a bit better than he was back then, or more likely he has assumed a little bigger role. And Manu is doing all the same stuff and putting up the same numbers.

And yes, we could have gotten Channing Frye and/or Grant Hill. The one that really pisses me off is that we could have gotten Anthony Parker for about $3M. But none of that really matters now. Just saying the problem isn't with Tim, Tony, and Manu. They would have to be getting 75 points per game, between them, to make up for what is missing.

[coyotes_geek]

I was thinking about how this year's team stacks up against our last championship team from 06-07. There's nothing really new there, but it does kind of put some things into perspective to look at the two teams side by side:

The Big 3 are a few years older, but it doesn't really show up too much in their numbers, except for Tim's blocks and boards being a little lower. McDyess and Blair are better than Oberto and Elson were, in my opinion. All things considered, just about a wash between the two teams.

Jacques Vaughn and Benoh Udrih vs. George Hill and Garrett Temple.
Hill is much better than Vaughn, and Temple is getting about the same minutes as Benoh - almost none. Definite plus to this year's squad, though, because of Hill. But it's kind of misleading, since he's playing the 2 a lot of the time. We really don't have a true backup PG.

Bonner vs. Bonner. He was a non-factor then. He's a non-factor now, but with a lot more minutes. In '07 Bonner got about 3 minutes per game in the playoffs. Now he's getting about 15 minutes - not because he's a lot better, but because there's no one else to put in.

Finley and Barry vs Jefferson and Bogans. This is where things begin to break down. Finley and Barry had their shortcomings on defense, but I'm not sure they were any worse than Bogans and Jefferson. Finley played well through that post-season. He wasn't as athletic as RJ, but he knocked down shots. Barry contributed more than Bogans offensively. All things considered, I'd take the two that spread the opposing defenses over our current duo.

That leaves Mason and Mahinmi vs Bowen and Horry. Yeah... oops. Two hard-assed, smart defenders on that '07 team, that this team lacks. Even at 36 years old, Horry could come in and give Amare hell for 10-15 minutes a game. And Bowen would have made sure that Richardson didn't get his 20 points. Hell, I think Bowen right now could defend Richardson better than anyone has in the first 2 games. Mason and Mahinmi, obviously, can't do any of that.

Finley and Bowen shot a combined .430 from the 3P line in those playoffs. Horry and Barry shot a relatively dismal .325 from the arc, but that was great shooting compared to Bonner, Bogans, and Mason's combined .212 in these playoffs. Right now I would kill to have a couple of guys who would knock down one out of three of their 3-pointers.

I think a lot of people are expecting too much of our Big 3. We aren't going to lock down on defense like that '07 team, because there's no one to step into Bowen's and Horry's shoes. And we really need two players to step up and start hitting 3-pointers. Without that, Tim, Tony, and Manu would have to be a lot better than they were in '07. And that seems like a ridiculous expectation, considering they were good enough to win it all that year.

:tu

Spot on. This team doesn't have near the depth that the 07 team did. To me that's been the biggest disappointment of the season. We came into the season thinking this was the deepest Spurs team ever and it ended up being the exact opposite.

[carina_gino20]

Yes. I watched the 2007 Championship DVD before Game 1, looked at all the role players we had then and the role players we have now, and I wanted to cry.

[alchemist]

:cry

butthurt.

[florige]

And also with Bowen you could put him on Nash to pester the hell out of him when he would start going off. Like someone else said, we had a deeper team then. And when you have a deeper team you have more options to play around with period.

[Frenzy]

Yes, the league wanted the Spurs to win so desperately, they just wanted more money I'm sure. Oh wait, that makes zero sense. Delete your account. :nope

you expect a laker fan to make sense?

that makes zero sense. Delete your account. :nope
:lol

[MaNu4Tres]

I think a lot of people are expecting too much of our Big 3. We aren't going to lock down on defense like that '07 team, because there's no one to step into Bowen's and Horry's shoes. And we really need two players to step up and start hitting 3-pointers. Without that, Tim, Tony, and Manu would have to be a lot better than they were in '07. And that seems like a ridiculous expectation, considering they were good enough to win it all that year.

Nice OP GSH:tu

The lack of the quality of depth was a concern I had since July and should have been addressed at the trade deadline.


These spots in the rotation behind Duncan and McDyess and behind RJ and Manu will be extremely important when we face up against the elite of the league come May and June. We will need this player to perform at a high level and hopefully this player can perform on both ends of the floor. Here's our current situation and perhaps how the situation may play out:

Frontcourt situation outside of Duncan and McDyess:

With 35-40 MPG up for grabs at the PF/ C position it would be great if someone out of the Bonner/ Blair/ Haislip/ Mahimni cluster could seperate themselves into the 3rd spot in our rotation. Let's be honest though each of those players have huge question marks and liabilities. Bonner's interior defense and ability to contest shots effectively, Blair's pick and roll defense, Haislips inability to have a career in the NBA, Mahimni's ability to be injured every 2 months. I believe Ratliff will have a small part in the rotation ( 8 -10 minutes a game) due to the fact that he brings things to the table that no one else can on the roster ( shotblocking and altering shots around the rim, which initiates fast breaks and easy points on the other end.) I'm a fan of quality more than quantity.

Spurs need clear-cut quality behind Duncan and Dyess and hopefully it's one of those four as the season concludes in late June.

Wing situation outside of Manu and Jefferson:

There will be 35-40 minutes available behind RJ and Manu. Last year Mason played 30 minutes, Finley played 28 minutes, Bogans played 20 minutes. Time will be cut drastically for these three players. All these three players bring the same things to the table offensively, which is spot up shooting without the ability to create off the dribble effectively. Except Mason is better than both of them in P &R opportunties ( which is nothing to brag about because he is only effective when the Spurs play lazy P &R defensive teams), but that won't be his role this year anyway so thats irrelevant. Bogans is the best of the 3 on the defensive end. So what gives? How will Pop manage those three minutes if they all are deserved the minutes? Thats why it would be nice if they could package two of them in a 2 for 1 deal for a player that isn't a one trick pony like Mason and Finley.

Someone like Nocioni or Stephen Jackson who would bring defense, shooting, rebounding, creating off the dribble, and the tenacity and energy that's been lacking from our perimeter players outside of Manu.

If we do indeed turn 2 perimeter players for one better overall perimeter player like SJax and Nocioni, they would earn a big chunk of the 35-40 minutes available no questions asked. This would give us two wings on the court who can be threats on both ends of the floor during the vast majority of the game. This is something Spurs have never had. A Manu/ Jefferson/ SJax or Nocioni 3 wing rotation, with Bogans filling in 8-10 minutes a game at the 4th wing due to foul trouble would be damn scary.




Trade scenarios and situations that most likely will happen close to the deadline:
More than likely the Spurs will go into the season with the current roster and assess the team accordingly during the first 3 months of the year. There main focus should be the productivity of their 3-4 PF/C spots in the rotation. This could lead to certain scenarios to play out down the line:

Trading for a wing:
This scenario where the Spurs trade for an upgrade in the 3rd wing spot would most likely happen IF one or two players from the Bonner/ Blair/ Haislip/ Mahimni cluster are having a great year. The Spurs could then field offers for their expired contracts of Bonner/ Mason or Finley for an overall upgrade on the 3rd wing spot behind RJ and Manu.

http://i.usatoday.net/sports/_photos/2007/05/02/kobe-topper.jpg
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2007/1005/pg2_a_jackson_195.jpg
Trading for a post: If Blair ends up being a typical non-productive 2nd round pick, if Haislip ends up being a bust on his 2nd go around, and if Mahimni has a typical Mahimni type year then I could see the Spurs using Mason/ Bonner or Finley/ Bonner pick trade bait for someone like Camby. Especially if Bogans shows the FO that he deserves some run, which would make Mason an expendable trading asset for a big man.



All in all I believe Pop and R.C will do their best to put together the best rotation possible before we start the real wars in late April. Yeah we have a great quantity of depth behind Duncan and McDyess and Manu and Jefferson but it's the quality of those players that will make or break Duncan's 5th championship aspirations.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3710304#post3710304

[lefty]

The difference is that 2007 Pop wasn't senile yet

I mean Bonner WTF ?

[m33p0]

since we can't lock down on defense anymore, and we need someone with guts on offense... i'd like to bring back bones.

[nkdlunch]

we actually had a bench in 07

plus Bowen and Oberto brought toughness and experience we don't have right now.

Oberto was fucking solid man. Damn, it's a sad day when you miss Oberto

[Arrowch4]

Main difference is Tim Donaghy is no longer employed by the NBA. In 07 you had him rigging games in the Spurs favor and Stern's lackey Stu Jackson unjustly suspending Phoenix's best player for the most crucial game of the post-season. Haha, what a joke that 2007 title was.

Not only that the Lakers were in the Middle of a BULLSHIT trade for Gasol back then. After the Lakers reemergence San Antonio immediately began to wilt away into irrelevance.

fyp


Let me guess, you are a person who lives in St. Louis and has never left the state. Except that one time when Grandma took you across the river to Illinois.

[elbamba]

07 was better at spacing the floor because they had 5 guys that could hit a three pointer. This team has 2 that have shown they can do it in the playoffs. Oberto was not a bad defensive player. In fact, he was better than Blair and Dice because he knew where to be at every rotation. Dice has better offense and his defense is not bad, but Oberto was just a smart basketball player. The 07 team was a team of smart basketball players and that is why they won the championship. We don't have that this year.

[Borosai]

A few weeks ago I was watching some videos from the '05 and '07 runs, and two things stood out above all else: Bowen and Horry. In crunch time, the Spurs' lineup was Parker, Ginobili, Bowen, Horry and Duncan. That's how you win. This team just doesn't have that, or consistent play from its role players (honestly, there aren't enough role players).

[MannyIsGod]

This is the 2nd thread I've seen Manu4Tres try hard to pat himself on the back for pointing out the obvious.