Does this mean that I am a neocon? [Archive]

Drachen

05-06-2010, 11:34 AM

I feel very dirty, I had read everything of interest on cnn.com, so I decided to go to foxnews.com for a good laugh and there on the front page was a story that had a headline that I couldn't believe. I read the story and completely agree with the view being given by FOX FREAKIN NEWS. This is the culmination of a disturbing trend where I have found myself, on occasion, agreeing with those on the right on this board, its got me a little scared. Here is the article:

Link to my shame (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/06/california-students-sent-home-wearing-flags-cinco-mayo/)

Administrators at a California high school sent five students home on Wednesday after they refused to remove their American flag T-shirts and bandannas -- garments the school officials deemed "incendiary" on Cinco de Mayo.

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Administrators at a California high school sent five students home on Wednesday after they refused to remove their American flag T-shirts and bandannas -- garments the school officials deemed "incendiary" on Cinco de Mayo.

The five teens were sitting at a table outside Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, Calif., on Wednesday morning when Assistant Principal Miguel Rodriguez asked two of them to remove their American flag bandannas, the Morgan Hill Times reported. The boys told the newspaper they complied, but were asked to accompany Rodriguez to the principal's office.

The five students -- Daniel Galli, Austin Carvalho, Matt Dariano, Dominic Maciel and Clayton Howard -- were then told they must turn their T-shirts inside-out or be sent home, though it would not be considered a suspension. Rodriguez told the students he did not want any fights to break out between Mexican-American students celebrating their heritage and those wearing American flags.

"They said we were starting a fight," Dariano told the newspaper. "We were fuel to the fire."

The boys told Rodriguez and Principal Nick Boden that turning their shirts inside-out was disrespectful, so their parents decided to take them home, the newspaper reports.

"I just couldn't believe it," Julie Fagerstrom, Maciel's mother, told the newspaper. "I'm an open-minded parent, but it's got to be on both sides. It can't be five kids singled out."

Galli told NBC Bay Area, "They said we could wear it on any other day, but today is sensitive to Mexican-Americans because it's supposed to be their holiday so we were not allowed to wear it."

In a statement released on Wednesday, the Morgan Hill Unified School District said it did not agree with the school's actions.

"In an attempt to foster a spirit of cultural awareness and maintain a safe and supportive school environment, the Live Oak High School administration took certain actions earlier today," the statement read. "The district does not concur with the Live Oak High School administration's interpretation of either board or district policy related to these actions."

Attempts to reach school officials early Thursday were not successful. A secretary told the Morgan Hill Times that Boden and Rodriguez were unavailable for comment on Wednesday.

According to its website, Live Oak High School is a 1,300-student institution in the southern part of Santa Clara County, with most students residing in the nearby cities of Morgan Hill and San Jose.

"The student population reflects the rich ethnic and socioeconomic diversity of the community," the website reads.

More than 100 students were spotted wearing the colors of the Mexican flag -- red, white and green -- as they left school, including some who had the flag painted on their faces or arms, the Morgan Hill times reported.

While bandannas of any color are banned at the school, its dress code policy does not contain references to American flags.

"However, any clothing or decoration which detracts from the learning environment is prohibited," the policy reads. "The school has the right to request that any student dressing inappropriately for school will change into other clothes, be sent home to change, and/or be subject to disciplinary action."

Freshman Laura Ponce, who had a Mexican flag painted on her face and chest, told the Morgan Hill Times that Cinco de Mayo is the "only day" Mexican-American students can show their national pride.

"There was a lot of drama going on today," Ponce told the newspaper.

Some other Mexican-American students reportedly said their flags were taken away or asked to be put away, but no other students were sent home on Wednesday.

Lis Wiehl, a former federal prosecutor and a Fox News legal analyst, said the incident appears to a "blatant" violation of the students' First Amendment right to free speech. She noted that inciting violence is an exception to a First Amendment legal defense, but Wiehl said she saw no indications that the students provoked anyone.

"Unless I'm missing something, this seems like a blatant violation of the First Amendment," said Wiehl, adding that uniforms are not required at the public school. "And they're wearing, of all horrific things, the American flag."

BTW, my forword is more tounge-in-cheek than anything, I know I am center-left and that I will, on occasion, find myself agreeing and disagreeing with both sides.

LnGrrrR

05-06-2010, 11:59 AM

Drachen

05-06-2010, 12:03 PM

Screw those school administrators.

This is America. There's nothing insensitive about wearing flag-related paraphernalia. (Well... I mean according to the flag code there's some debate, but that's beside the point here lol.)

America is MULTICULTURAL. To suggest that celebrating one culture denigrates another is retarded logic at best. That's like saying because I'm not religious, I'm offending Christians.

Just retarded. As is that Freshman who said that Cinco de Mayo is the "only day" they can celebrate. GMAFB.

I will take that last part you spoke of a step further, she was talking about the "only day" to show her national pride. So since this is the only nation she cares to show pride in . . . .

Also to the school admins, do they mandate that all students must wear green on St. Patty's day? If a student shows up wearing orange, are they sent home?

LnGrrrR

05-06-2010, 12:08 PM

admiralsnackbar

05-06-2010, 12:18 PM

I will take that last part you spoke of a step further, she was talking about the "only day" to show her national pride. So since this is the only nation she cares to show pride in . . . .

Also to the school admins, do they mandate that all students must wear green on St. Patty's day? If a student shows up wearing orange, are they sent home?

Let me just start by saying that I think your position is beyond reproach philosophically.

That said, principals are in the business of maintaining order more than they are in engendering free speech. I couldn't wear my Misfits shirt in PE at military school because my coach was a consecrated evangelical literalist who assumed I was celebrating death by lifting weights in a black shirt with a glow-in-the-dark skull on it. Was he wrong to censor me? Hell yes. Did it ultimately matter? Not really. The shirt inflamed insecurities/aggressions within him, and it was probably for the best I didn't push him to some greater act of censure... say, laps.

By the same token, wearing an US flag on 5 de Mayo, while perfectly acceptable in and of itself, could very easily be taken as a "fuck you" to Latinos. The principal was, thus, probably trying to avert a mess in his/her school by ordering the removal of an (contextually) inflammatory symbol.

I guess I'm saying that on paper, this was a stupid decision on the principal's part, but in context, it was no different than disallowing kids from wearing Misfits shirts (or gang-related sports jerseys). Peacekeeping.

z0sa

05-06-2010, 12:21 PM

Political Correctness at its finest.

Drachen

05-06-2010, 12:54 PM

Let me just start by saying that I think your position is beyond reproach philosophically.

That said, principals are in the business of maintaining order more than they are in engendering free speech. I couldn't wear my Misfits shirt in PE at military school because my coach was a consecrated evangelical literalist who assumed I was celebrating death by lifting weights in a black shirt with a glow-in-the-dark skull on it. Was he wrong to censor me? Hell yes. Did it ultimately matter? Not really. The shirt inflamed insecurities/aggressions within him, and it was probably for the best I didn't push him to some greater act of censure... say, laps.

By the same token, wearing an US flag on 5 de Mayo, while perfectly acceptable in and of itself, could very easily be taken as a "fuck you" to Latinos. The principal was, thus, probably trying to avert a mess in his/her school by ordering the removal of an (contextually) inflammatory symbol.

I guess I'm saying that on paper, this was a stupid decision on the principal's part, but in context, it was no different than disallowing kids from wearing Misfits shirts (or gang-related sports jerseys). Peacekeeping.

Ok so disallow those showing pride in their nation in order to make comfortable those who are showing pride in not their nation. How about they get over themselves and show pride in whatever they want, while they allow others to show pride in what they want. Does the pricipal send someone home on every other day if they are displaying the colors of a different country?

If the kids started being douchebags about it, yelling things like "These colors don't run" or "If you like mexico so much GTFO" I would understand punishing those kids FOR THAT. Nothing in the story indicates this, in fact the part where it says they would be sent home, though it wouldn't be counted as a suspension seems to imply (at least to me) that their sole indiscretion was wearing a shirt with a flag on it.

One also has to ask, was the SCHOOL flying the flag, or did they fly the mexican flag that day.

admiralsnackbar

05-06-2010, 12:57 PM

If the kids started being douchebags about it, yelling things like "These colors don't run" or "If you like mexico so much GTFO" I would understand punishing those kids FOR THAT. Nothing in the story indicates this, in fact the part where it says they would be sent home, though it wouldn't be counted as a suspension seems to imply (at least to me) that their sole indiscretion was wearing a shirt with a flag on it.

I guess I would argue that the censorship was effected in order for no disturbance of the kind to even happen.

Do you think kids would be sent home from school for wearing the US flag any other day? Nah, dude... like I said: this was all about maintaining the peace.

mogrovejo

05-06-2010, 01:03 PM

It wearing a t-shirt with an American flag is actually something that can threaten the peace in a school, it's pretty obvious there's a problem and where the problem is - not in those who are wearing the T-shirts, certainly.

I prefer to believe the school director just screwed up for no reason.

admiralsnackbar

05-06-2010, 01:05 PM

I prefer to believe the school director just screwed up for no reason.

That would certainly fit in with your modus operandi.

jack sommerset

05-06-2010, 01:05 PM

LMFAO @ can't wear a USA shirt on Cinco de Mayo!!!!!!!!!

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

Drachen

05-06-2010, 01:08 PM

I guess I would argue that the censorship was effected in order for no disturbance of the kind to even happen.

Do you think kids would be sent home from school for wearing the US flag any other day? Nah, dude... like I said: this was all about maintaining the peace.

As to the first part, if this is the case, then the principal should send home those who are disrupting the every day business of an American school. Not the ones who are carrying on with regular life.

As far as the second part, it will probably (NOW) be inflammatory if anyone is wearing any OTHER flag on any other day. So I guess they will have to be sent home.

admiralsnackbar

05-06-2010, 01:11 PM

As to the first part, if this is the case, then the principal should send home those who are disrupting the every day business of an American school. Not the ones who are carrying on with regular life.

As far as the second part, it will probably (NOW) be inflammatory if anyone is wearing any OTHER flag on any other day. So I guess they will have to be sent home.

Fine by me... I'm not defending the hypocrisy or what will come out of it, just saying there's a pragmatic reason it went down the way it did.

LnGrrrR

05-06-2010, 01:17 PM

Do you think kids would be sent home from school for wearing the US flag any other day? Nah, dude... like I said: this was all about maintaining the peace.

In the interests of fairness then, one would think that all displays of nationality should be banned in the interest of fairness. Of course, then you'd have people mad they couldn't display the Mexican flag on cinco de mayo.

I'm of the opinion that children should wear what they want, as long as it's not obviously designed to be inflammatory.

admiralsnackbar

05-06-2010, 01:22 PM

I'm of the opinion that children should wear what they want, as long as it's not obviously designed to be inflammatory.

I am, too, which is why I said I philosophically agree. At the same time, I can sympathize with a principal who doesn't want any shit started in loco parentis on a real, practical level.

Do problems upon problems fall out of the reaction? Absolutely. Was it a short-sighted, reactionary policy? Absolutely. Are school policies ever otherwise? Not in my experience. Were it up to principals, kids would all wear uniforms.

Drachen

05-06-2010, 01:29 PM

Fine by me... I'm not defending the hypocrisy or what will come out of it, just saying there's a pragmatic reason it went down the way it did.

fair enough, and just to be clear, I am not part of the GTFO crowd. I am however completely confused by the fact that it seems very stupid and self-harmful to continue to choose living in a country that you don't have love for especially when there is one that (it seems) you would prefer to align yourself with.

Stringer_Bell

05-06-2010, 01:29 PM

Also to the school admins, do they mandate that all students must wear green on St. Patty's day? If a student shows up wearing orange, are they sent home?

Probably, I doubt they want car bombs going off at lunch!

Freshman Laura Ponce, who had a Mexican flag painted on her face and chest, told the Morgan Hill Times that Cinco de Mayo is the "only day" Mexican-American students can show their national pride.

Mexican-American students? National pride?
1) High schools students are the most idiotic students in the world, confusing the country of their birth with the country of their ancestry. Actually, that's most people that use hyphenated "nationalities."
2) Cinco de Mayo is not even Mexico's Independence Day, which is way more important to people in Mexico.
3) Are these kids aware that the Cinco de Mayo victory, while awesome, wasn't really a victory in the long run?
4) Only kids wearing French flags would be instigating conflict with their dress, not the American flag kids. The latter are just trying to be cool and make a statement.

Oh, Gee!!

05-06-2010, 01:30 PM

to answer the OP: yes, it does.

Spurminator

05-06-2010, 01:30 PM

Does anyone really think that five friends wearing over-the-top American flag clothing (bandanas?!) on Cinco de Mayo was an accident or coincidence?

There's nothing wrong with there clothing in and of itself. But you'd have a hard time convincing me that the intent was not to be provocative. And high school students do not have first amendment rights to wear clothing that creates distraction or could lead to hostility.

I think the intent was pretty clear. The only thing the school did wrong was to give them the attention they wanted.

But I'd expect them to do the same thing if ten white buddies were gathering together wearing solid white on MLK Day. Nothing wrong with wearing white. But let's be real.

alchemist

05-06-2010, 01:32 PM

Seems to me that these kids were out to get a rise from people. :wakeup

jack sommerset

05-06-2010, 01:35 PM

Seems to me that these kids were out to get a rise from people. :wakeup

Yeah, they are proud to been americans. Freaken troublemakers

Drachen

05-06-2010, 01:35 PM

Probably, I doubt they want car bombs going off at lunch!

Mexican-American students? National pride?
1) High schools students are the most idiotic students in the world, confusing the country of their birth with the country of their ancestry. Actually, that's most people that use hyphenated "nationalities."
2) Cinco de Mayo is not even Mexico's Independence Day, which is way more important to people in Mexico.
3) Are these kids aware that the Cinco de Mayo victory, while awesome, wasn't really a victory in the long run?
4) Only kids wearing French flags would be instigating conflict with their dress, not the American flag kids. The latter are just trying to be cool and make a statement.

Ok, I found the first part hilarious.
Secondly, the rest of it is spot on. I would even amend number 4 to say that while I believe these 5 were just trying to be cool high school kids, maybe they weren't. What are the odds that in an American HS that 5 out of 1300 students would wear a shirt that has the Flag on it on any given day. I would say pretty high. The ONLY reason that I don't think this is a coincedence is the fact that they were wearing bandanas too. Either way, who cares.

admiralsnackbar

05-06-2010, 01:36 PM

fair enough, and just to be clear, I am not part of the GTFO crowd. I am however completely confused by the fact that it seems very stupid and self-harmful to continue to choose living in a country that you don't have love for especially when there is one that (it seems) you would prefer to align yourself with.

I don't know... I think you were closer to it when you likened the 5 de Mayo to St. Patty's Day -- it isn't about pledging allegiance to a country (as Stringer pointed out, El Dia De Independencia on Sept 16 is more of a Mexican holiday that the Cinco -- which I don't even remember celebrating when I lived in MX) as much as celebrating your ethnic heritage.

Spurminator

05-06-2010, 01:36 PM

What are the odds that in an American HS that 5 out of 1300 students would wear a shirt that has the Flag on it on any given day. I would say pretty high.

Five friends at the same table?

Drachen

05-06-2010, 01:37 PM

to answer the OP: yes, it does.

Ok, thanks for clarifying. LOL

admiralsnackbar

05-06-2010, 01:39 PM

The ONLY reason that I don't think this is a coincedence is the fact that they were wearing bandanas too. Either way, who cares.

You may care if you were hispanic and people were obviously fucking with you (ie, not a coincidence), in the way the Irish might care if people came to school wearing Union Jacks, or blacks would care if people came to class wearing black-face or dixie flags on MLK day. Again... it shouldn't be a big deal, but we're talking about teenagers.

Oh, Gee!!

05-06-2010, 01:40 PM

alchemist

05-06-2010, 01:41 PM

Yeah, they are proud to been americans. Freaken troublemakers
right.......:rolleyes

Drachen

05-06-2010, 01:42 PM

Five friends at the same table?

I forgot about the "at the same table" part. Like I said, I thought it was intentional, but if that's all they did, then they feel like they stayed true to whatever values and no harm no foul. At the same time, I bet it was intentional that a large portion of the school wore stuff representing Mexico that day, do they get kicked out of school?

Where are the celebrations/observances of Irish independence day/Bloody Sunday. How about the day of mourning for the initiation of the Trail of Tears? Battle of Waterloo?

alchemist

05-06-2010, 01:43 PM

even if the kids were wearing the shirts to get a rise out of people, it was out of line on the part of the principal. as far as I can tell, no riots ensued because of the t-shirts. seems more like the principal's ego was bruised, and he went on power trip to heal it.
I think the Principle should've left them in school to be honest, couple verbal fights won't hurt too much.

LnGrrrR

05-06-2010, 01:43 PM

I am, too, which is why I said I philosophically agree. At the same time, I can sympathize with a principal who doesn't want any shit started in loco parentis on a real, practical level.

Do problems upon problems fall out of the reaction? Absolutely. Was it a short-sighted, reactionary policy? Absolutely. Are school policies ever otherwise? Not in my experience. Were it up to principals, kids would all wear uniforms.

I think the right thing to do in this situation would have been to address it ahead of time with a policy that stated certain patriotic items would be inappropriate to wear.

Failing that, I feel the principal should have waited to see if negatIvity occurred around the students.

I understand the principle behind the CYA decision. I'd like to think I would have ruled otherwise though.

Duff McCartney

05-06-2010, 01:45 PM

I knew a few dumbass liberal kids back in high school... "America is evil! We go to war! We bomb children!"

If you hate America so much, GTFO.

I don't agree with your statement, but I do have to ask if America has bombed children, like has happened before..don't you consider that evil? What is the cost of criticism? How much does it take? I'm just asking rhetorical questions here I am sincerely wondering.

I think it was Robert Wuhl who said it best "Everyone loves their country in a different way. Some people it's a 'Love it or leave it' type of thing, and for those of us who have been married 20 plus years it's more of a 'Sure she pisses me off at times, what the fuck am I gonna do you know?'".

Spurminator

05-06-2010, 01:45 PM

even if the kids were wearing the shirts to get a rise out of people, it was out of line on the part of the principal. as far as I can tell, no riots ensued because of the t-shirts. seems more like the principal's ego was bruised, and he went on power trip to heal it.

But it's the principal's job to prevent that riot from occurring if he thinks it's a possibility.

I'd lean towards this being an overreaction, but I'm not going to feel sorry about a few attitudinal teens getting the day off from school.

jack sommerset

05-06-2010, 01:49 PM

I am however completely confused by the fact that it seems very stupid and self-harmful to continue to choose living in a country that you don't have love for especially when there is one that (it seems) you would prefer to align yourself with.

I was at a Allen Americans game (hockey) a few weeks back. There was this row of mexicans, all ages from around 4-50. They had Dodgers, Yankees, Allen and Cowboy shirts on. They were singing American songs LOUD and somewhat clear from Taylor Swift to Michael Jackson to Neil Freaken Diamond. They cheered for their favorite hockey team, the Americans but when they did the national anthem before the game they refused to take off their hats, stand and all of them put their heads down until the song was over.

Durning the game I started talking to a few of them. They live in Allen Texas and said they were americans but consider themselves more mexicans and will only respect that anthem. I find that odd.

Drachen

05-06-2010, 01:50 PM

You may care if you were hispanic and people were obviously fucking with you (ie, not a coincidence), in the way the Irish might care if people came to school wearing Union Jacks, or blacks would care if people came to class wearing black-face or dixie flags on MLK day. Again... it shouldn't be a big deal, but we're talking about teenagers.

Your analogies don't hold up. This would be the same as if at a school in germany on Irish independence day, someone came to school wearing a German Shirt. Or if someone came to school in Mexico on MLK day wearing a Mariano Abarca T-shirt.

Spurminator

05-06-2010, 01:51 PM

At the same time, I bet it was intentional that a large portion of the school wore stuff representing Mexico that day, do they get kicked out of school?

There is a difference. Wearing Mexican clothes on Cinco de Mayo is not openly confrontational, unless you're talking about a student wearing a "Mexico > USA" shirt (or something similar), in which case my guess is he would have been asked to change as well.

These students were being openly confrontational with their clothing. Sure it's freedom of speech, but high school students are not afforded the same First Amendment protections as adults and I'm okay with that, frankly.

Where are the celebrations/observances of Irish independence day/Bloody Sunday. How about the day of mourning for the initiation of the Trail of Tears? Battle of Waterloo?

I'm sure kids would be allowed to wear related clothing on those anniversaries.

jack sommerset

05-06-2010, 01:55 PM

right.......:rolleyes

I'm sorry buddy. There is nothing wrong with kids wearing USA t's on cinco de mayo. Nothing wrong with people wearing USA t's on St Pattys day. Don't forget, this is america.

How bout the Spews people send the Los Sun fans home when they show up in those T's in their building. Freaken troublemakers!

DarrinS

05-06-2010, 01:56 PM

admiralsnackbar

05-06-2010, 01:58 PM

Your analogies don't hold up. This would be the same as if at a school in germany on Irish independence day, someone came to school wearing a German Shirt. Or if someone came to school in Mexico on MLK day wearing a Mariano Abarca T-shirt.

C'mon now... I think if you'd try, you'd see they do hold up. Like it or not, Chicanos are minorities in this country, the same way the Irish were once considered in England, and not unlike Blacks were/are in this country. When the dominant culture fucks with you on the basis of your ethnicity, it brings up old resentments.

As a white dude, it may not be your intention to stir up these irrational feelings (and you probably won't even be aware of it when you do) but that doesn't change the way some people might feel like you're fucking with them.

LnGrrrR

05-06-2010, 01:59 PM

I don't agree with your statement, but I do have to ask if America has bombed children, like has happened before..don't you consider that evil? What is the cost of criticism? How much does it take? I'm just asking rhetorical questions here I am sincerely wondering.

I have no problem with rhetoric. I just detest those that take actions which may be reprehensible, and then use it to paint a wide group. People who say that soldiers love killing brown people because of a few stupid soldiers. People who say that America is evil, without thinking of all the good we do, etc etc.

I personally think the usage of nukes during WWII was unjustified and unethical due to the high amount of civilian casualities it caused. However, I don't think deciding to do so was "evil". There were valid reasons pro and con on that decision. I don't think the Founding Fathers were racist because they kept slaves... it was a totally different mindset back then, and I judge them according to the morals at the time.

There are only a few people in history that were nearly all evil... Caligula, Hitler, and a few others.

I think it was Robert Wuhl who said it best "Everyone loves their country in a different way. Some people it's a 'Love it or leave it' type of thing, and for those of us who have been married 20 plus years it's more of a 'Sure she pisses me off at times, what the fuck am I gonna do you know?'".

That's why I said I'm fine with people disliking aspects and working to change those. Totally cool. I just hate people who say that our country is evil, government is evil, yadda yadda yadda. If you feel that strongly about such a broad portion of the country, one that is essentially "unfixable", then either work to change it or leave.

I found that many of the peope with these simplistic thoughts also were not likely to try fixing it. But that's just my personal experience.

Drachen

05-06-2010, 02:00 PM

There is a difference. Wearing Mexican clothes on Cinco de Mayo is not openly confrontational, unless you're talking about a student wearing a "Mexico > USA" shirt (or something similar), in which case my guess is he would have been asked to change as well.

These students were being openly confrontational with their clothing. Sure it's freedom of speech, but high school students are not afforded the same First Amendment protections as adults and I'm okay with that, frankly.

I'm sure kids would be allowed to wear related clothing on those anniversaries.

Honestly for me I am not even about making this a free speech thing, but I guess that is what it boils down to. You say that wearing Mexican clothes on the anniversary of the battle of puebla against the french isn't confrontational, but it obviously is to (at least) these 5. PC goes both ways man (but we all know it doesn't). As far as the kids wearing related clothing on the anniversaries those days that I mentioned, I am sure they would be allowed to do so. My question is, will all mexican themed clothing, and american themed clothing be banned on those days?

They have been given the blessing by the school (either implicit or explicit) to overtly celebrate a holiday from another country. Fine, I think this is a little odd, but whatever, I don't have to agree with everything everyone does. But now it is encroaching upon americans celebrating their americanness, that is where the problem begins.

LnGrrrR

05-06-2010, 02:01 PM

Durning the game I started talking to a few of them. They live in Allen Texas and said they were americans but consider themselves more mexicans and will only respect that anthem. I find that odd.

Eh... I picture it this way. If you lived in France for ten years or so, and really liked the country, you might get into their sports/politics/etc, yet still be proud of your own anthem.

I find many Mexicans are proud of their heritage/culture, at least as much as Americans if not moreso, and they're not quick to relinquish that identity.

Duff McCartney

05-06-2010, 02:02 PM

I have no problem with rhetoric. I just detest those that take actions which may be reprehensible, and then use it to paint a wide group. People who say that soldiers love killing brown people because of a few stupid soldiers. People who say that America is evil, without thinking of all the good we do, etc etc.

I personally think the usage of nukes during WWII was unjustified and unethical due to the high amount of civilian casualities it caused. However, I don't think deciding to do so was "evil". There were valid reasons pro and con on that decision. I don't think the Founding Fathers were racist because they kept slaves... it was a totally different mindset back then, and I judge them according to the morals at the time.

There are only a few people in history that were nearly all evil... Caligula, Hitler, and a few others.

That's why I said I'm fine with people disliking aspects and working to change those. Totally cool. I just hate people who say that our country is evil, government is evil, yadda yadda yadda. If you feel that strongly about such a broad portion of the country, one that is essentially "unfixable", then either work to change it or leave.

I found that many of the peope with these simplistic thoughts also were not likely to try fixing it. But that's just my personal experience.

I think we just have to agree to disagree. Which I don't agree with either. But I digress, the reason I have no "pride" in America is that we use rhetoric like "Greatest nation on Earth" and other bullshit and yet we say it's fine if we fuck up.

Don't get me wrong I understand fuck ups, but sometimes I feel like people don't even make an effort to fix these fuck ups. Like Iraq, like it's something that can simply be brushed off or put on the back burner. That's the reason I have high criticism of the US. Because we can do so much better and so much more, yet for reasons unknown we don't.

admiralsnackbar

05-06-2010, 02:04 PM

But now it is encroaching upon americans celebrating their americanness, that is where the problem begins.

The only thing this encroached upon was the principal's nerves. High-school kids have no real freedoms (or at least we didn't when I was a kid). To extrapolate from a HS situation to broader life seems a bit hyperbolic.

LnGrrrR

05-06-2010, 02:05 PM

These students were being openly confrontational with their clothing. Sure it's freedom of speech, but high school students are not afforded the same First Amendment protections as adults and I'm okay with that, frankly.

How is that being openly confrontational?

Were they saying something like "America is superior"? What's wrong with showing pride in YOUR country, on the same day some Mexicans show pride in Mexico?

As well, just because students have somewhat limited First Amendment rights while in school, I do not think that justifies any and all reductions of that right.

boutons_deux

05-06-2010, 02:07 PM

"Because we can do so much better and so much more, yet for reasons unknown we don't."

"reasons unknown"? GMAFB America does whatever profits corps and capitalists.

All the American fuckups are driven by greed.

admiralsnackbar

05-06-2010, 02:07 PM

I know cold war examples are a bit passe, but would people be fine if a bunch of kids wore red CCCP shirts on the 4th of July?

Drachen

05-06-2010, 02:08 PM

C'mon now... I think if you'd try, you'd see they do hold up. Like it or not, Chicanos are minorities in this country, the same way the Irish were once considered in England, and not unlike Blacks were/are in this country. When the dominant culture fucks with you on the basis of your ethnicity, it brings up old resentments.

As a white dude, it may not be your intention to stir up these irrational feelings (and you probably won't even be aware of it when you do) but that doesn't change the way some people might feel like you're fucking with them.

Right they are still minorities, and yet (after admittedly hard fights), they have the right to do things such as celebrate a holiday commemorating the a battle between two other countries.

Try this analogy: this is basically similar to the fact that many minorities prefer the hyphenation of their ancestry mexican-american, african-american, etc. and they won't stop until those who are comfortable just being americans, start calling themselves European-Americans.

How about there finally is starting to be some progress, you do your thing, let us do our thing and quit making enemies out of each other.

Edit: I felt uncomfortable typing that last sentence because I know that everything isn't perfect. I guess my point is that neither side should be going overboard. If progress is made in one area, the quickest way to retract that progress is to overreach.

LnGrrrR

05-06-2010, 02:10 PM

I think we just have to agree to disagree. Which I don't agree with either. But I digress, the reason I have no "pride" in America is that we use rhetoric like "Greatest nation on Earth" and other bullshit and yet we say it's fine if we fuck up.

I can understand being critical of this. I am not saying that America is the greatest nation on Earth... that's taking it to its opposite extreme. I'm saying extremes on either side are silly/juvenile.

Don't get me wrong I understand fuck ups, but sometimes I feel like people don't even make an effort to fix these fuck ups. Like Iraq, like it's something that can simply be brushed off or put on the back burner. That's the reason I have high criticism of the US. Because we can do so much better and so much more, yet for reasons unknown we don't.

Do you really think the whole country feels that way though? I doubt it.

America does bad things. So do other countries. There are some countries I feel we are more moral than, and some that we are probably less moral than. The point of being a good citizen is to give voice to what you think is right, not to shout empty jingoisms.

LnGrrrR

05-06-2010, 02:12 PM

I know cold war examples are a bit passe, but would people be fine if a bunch of kids wore red CCCP shirts on the 4th of July?

Sure. It's a political statement, which I feel should be protected by the First Amendment.

I feel that anything that is not blatantly offensive (ie obvious stuff like swear words, violent images, etc) should be allowed. Again, I am very libertarian on First Amendment issues. :D

Drachen

05-06-2010, 02:13 PM

I know cold war examples are a bit passe, but would people be fine if a bunch of kids wore red CCCP shirts on the 4th of July?

Still completely different, the correct analogy would be if this were in a russian school and on July 4th, the russian school kids wore shirts with the soviet flag. What do they care, it celebrates something that happened between two entirely different countries.

jack sommerset

05-06-2010, 02:15 PM

Eh... I picture it this way. If you lived in France for ten years or so, and really liked the country, you might get into their sports/politics/etc, yet still be proud of your own anthem.

I find many Mexicans are proud of their heritage/culture, at least as much as Americans if not moreso, and they're not quick to relinquish that identity.

Honestly, I just found it odd. They were into so many things american (clothes,songs,sports) but couldn't even take their hats off to show some sort of respect. Instead they put their heads down as if they were ashamed. I have no clue what the protocol is in this case but when a canadain hockey team comes to play the Stars, I stand. When I was at a world cup qualifer at the alamo dome a few years back, I stood for the mexico and domician republican anthem. Like I said, I found it odd.

I'm thinking now I am a really great guy that doesn't have a racist bone in my body unlike some other folks in here.

admiralsnackbar

05-06-2010, 02:15 PM

Right they are still minorities, and yet (after admittedly hard fights), they have the right to do things such as celebrate a holiday commemorating the a battle between two other countries.

Try this analogy: this is basically similar to the fact that many minorities prefer the hyphenation of their ancestry mexican-american, african-american, etc. and they won't stop until those who are comfortable just being americans, start calling themselves European-Americans.

How about there finally is starting to be some progress, you do your thing, let us do our thing and quit making enemies out of eachother.

It makes sense, and it sounds great, but it's harder to do in practice.

Like I said, the Cinco is historically irrelevant. When Chicanos celebrate it, it is as a celebration of their heritage, not in remembrance of a pissy little Mexican victory against the French. All people are proud of their roots, but this pride necessarily creates divisions of us-vs-them. We can try to have it your way and the way I'm describing (that's, I think, what it means to be an American), but it's imperfect.

mogrovejo

05-06-2010, 02:17 PM

I know cold war examples are a bit passe, but would people be fine if a bunch of kids wore red CCCP shirts on the 4th of July?

Is this an analogy? CCCP Shirts-> American flag shirts; 5 de Mayo -> 4th of July?

I think most civilized people would be absolutely fine, btw.

admiralsnackbar

05-06-2010, 02:20 PM

Still completely different, the correct analogy would be if this were in a russian school and on July 4th, the russian school kids wore shirts with the soviet flag. What do they care, it celebrates something that happened between two entirely different countries.

I guess I'm not making myself clear, but I think if you would actually trust my analogy and see what I'm trying to convey, then amplify the feeling because we aren't talking about nationality but race/ethnicity, that you might understand where I'm going.

4th of July is a day where we express our pride in being Americans. If somebody in 1950's Iowa came to school on that day wearing a CCCP shirt, it would clearly be an attempt to piss you off. You may respect their right to wear the shirt, but you would feel disrespected. If we take the same line of thought to race/ethnicity, and accept as a given that Americans have had a rocky road assimilating minorities, somebody wearing what is now a US shirt on your "I'm proud to be brown day" may piss you off. It's sad that it's this way, and it has nothing to do with Chicano's patriotism, but then, wearing a US flag to fuck with somebody's special day isn't terribly patriotic, either. Legal? Sure. Dick? Also.

admiralsnackbar

05-06-2010, 02:21 PM

Is this an analogy? CCCP Shirts-> American flag shirts; 5 de Mayo -> 4th of July?

I think most civilized people would be absolutely fine, btw.

Thanks for weighing in, as ever.:toast

jack sommerset

05-06-2010, 02:23 PM

Thanks for weighing in, as ever.:toast

:lol

Sorry

:lol

admiralsnackbar

05-06-2010, 02:27 PM

:lol

Sorry

:lol

:king

Drachen

05-06-2010, 02:30 PM

I guess I'm not making myself clear, but I think if you would actually trust my analogy and see what I'm trying to convey, then amplify the feeling because we aren't talking about nationality but race/ethnicity, that you might understand where I'm going.

Ok, I disagree with you and your analogies, but I will relent. If we are talking about ethincities then the flag should be irrelevant, but I back down here because I guess we won't reach a point of understanding on this.

I will probably get really really flamed for this, but it seems to me a culture of victimization is being bred in if THIS is offensive. I understand that I will not understand everything since I don't care about the times I was a "victim" of racism, but this smells of proactively looking for excuses to get pissed.

admiralsnackbar

05-06-2010, 02:33 PM

Ok, I disagree with you and your analogies, but I will relent. If we are talking about ethincities then the flag should be irrelevant, but I back down here because I guess we won't reach a point of understanding on this.

I will probably get really really flamed for this, but it seems to me a culture of victimization is being bred in if THIS is offensive. I understand that I will not understand everything since I don't care about the times I was a "victim" of racism, but this smells of proactively looking for excuses to get pissed.

I understand where you're coming from, but just because you've made peace with history doesn't mean all groups have or should. History is all people need to get pissed, and it takes generations to work it through.

mogrovejo

05-06-2010, 02:38 PM

I will probably get really really flamed for this, but it seems to me a culture of victimization is being bred in if THIS is offensive.

Yeps. If the director had reasons to be concerned then it's pretty obvious that there's a huge problem, at least among some Hispanic students in that school.

Drachen

05-06-2010, 02:38 PM

I understand where you're coming from, but just because you've made peace with history doesn't mean all groups have or should. History is all people need to get pissed, and it takes generations to work it through.

Ok, great, work for equal rights, I will help, but don't work for UN-equal rights. Once again PC goes both ways. So we either open everything up, or shut everything down.

ChumpDumper

05-06-2010, 02:40 PM

I think the school missed out on a teachable moment.

jack sommerset

05-06-2010, 02:41 PM

admiralsnackbar

05-06-2010, 02:42 PM

Ok, great, work for equal rights, I will help, but don't work for UN-equal rights. Once again PC goes both ways. So we either open everything up, or shut everything down.

We're both working it out right now, just like millions of other people. I don't feel victimized as a minority because I'm educated, assimilated, and have earning potential... but I understand why other minorities may not feel that way because they aren't here yet. Shit, some people never get over their anger and carry it to their grave -- their loss. Point is, it's a process. All we can do is be cool and hope people choose to be cool in their due time.

admiralsnackbar

05-06-2010, 02:43 PM

The root of racism.

Absolutely so.

Drachen

05-06-2010, 02:45 PM

The root of racism.

I wouldn't go quite that far. It is absolutely understandable that a race scorned might have trust issues with the race that scorned them, but progress, not regression needs to be made. Don't get mad at some people doing the EXACT same thing you are. If that race scorned continues looking for proof of that scorn, they will find it even where there is none.

Ok, nevermind, I reread my post and I guess that pretty much makes it the root of racism. LOL

Fpoonsie

05-06-2010, 02:52 PM

It seems fairly obvious that these kids were trying to get a rise out of people, especially considering the current political climate w/ regards to Mexican-American policies. The fact that these kids not only chose to wear American flags in some kind've feeble attempt to show "solidarity", but that they ALSO wore similar bandannas, which I'm sure they knew weren't allowed at school, is the very telling part of this story.

I think trying to paint these kids as some kinda "free speech martyrs" is overreaching. Seems to me that they were just trying to piss people off.

I have no problem w/ what the principal did, given the students' initial disregard for the school dress code policy.

Spurminator

05-06-2010, 02:52 PM

Huh? WTF? Especially your comment about wearing white on MLK Day.

This reminds me of the Dallas man that thought the term "black hole" was racist. GMAFB.

You don't think ten buddies wearing solid white T-shirts on MLK Day would be suspicious?

Drachen

05-06-2010, 02:54 PM

On a lighter note, I have to ask, does Fox News always have polls like this

"You Decide : Ban the American Flag - In America?"

I love it.
Do most of their polls end up 99%-1%??

LnGrrrR

05-06-2010, 02:57 PM

If we take the same line of thought to race/ethnicity, and accept as a given that Americans have had a rocky road assimilating minorities, somebody wearing what is now a US shirt on your "I'm proud to be brown day" may piss you off. It's sad that it's this way, and it has nothing to do with Chicano's patriotism, but then, wearing a US flag to fuck with somebody's special day isn't terribly patriotic, either. Legal? Sure. Dick? Also.

Maybe I missed something, but how is wearing a US flag shirt on Cinco de Mayo ipso facto insulting someone?

It's not like the kids were saying "America is better" or anything similar.

And it's not very similar to the CCCP shirt example, because, ya know, we're not at war with Mexico.

You can't protect people from being offended, IMHO. People who take umbrage to someone wearing an American flag motif in school, in America, is just silly. Assuming that it was worn offensively is jumping to conclusions that don't seem supported by the facts. Per the article:

The five teens were sitting at a table outside Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, Calif., on Wednesday morning when Assistant Principal Miguel Rodriguez asked two of them to remove their American flag bandannas, one of their parents told FoxNews.com. The boys complied, but were asked to accompany Rodriguez to the principal's office.

Does this sound like the actions of children who were out to prove the superiority of their culture/nation/heritage?

Drachen

05-06-2010, 02:57 PM

Spurminator

05-06-2010, 02:57 PM

Honestly for me I am not even about making this a free speech thing, but I guess that is what it boils down to. You say that wearing Mexican clothes on the anniversary of the battle of puebla against the french isn't confrontational, but it obviously is to (at least) these 5. PC goes both ways man (but we all know it doesn't).

If they have a problem with it they should address it with the school through other means. Not by picking fights.

As far as the kids wearing related clothing on the anniversaries those days that I mentioned, I am sure they would be allowed to do so. My question is, will all mexican themed clothing, and american themed clothing be banned on those days?

I don't think there are many kids or teachers in the public school system who would make the connection anyway. And that's not to knock them. I wouldn't have either as a high schooler.

They have been given the blessing by the school (either implicit or explicit) to overtly celebrate a holiday from another country. Fine, I think this is a little odd, but whatever, I don't have to agree with everything everyone does. But now it is encroaching upon americans celebrating their americanness, that is where the problem begins.

Again, you're giving the kids a little too much credit for what they were doing. They weren't celebrating their heritage. They were flaunting it.

LnGrrrR

05-06-2010, 02:58 PM

You don't think ten buddies wearing solid white T-shirts on MLK Day would be suspicious?

Not really.

LnGrrrR

05-06-2010, 03:00 PM

I think trying to paint these kids as some kinda "free speech martyrs" is overreaching. Seems to me that they were just trying to piss people off.

Let's say this is the case... which doesn't seem at all proven yet, to me.

Should we prevent children from making political statements in school?

Fpoonsie

05-06-2010, 03:05 PM

On a lighter note, I have to ask, does Fox News always have polls like this

"You Decide : Ban the American Flag - In America?"

I love it.
Do most of their polls end up 99%-1%??

:lol GTFO here. Is there REALLY a poll saying that?!

I am not clueless to what they were trying to do, I am saying that there is a problem when wearing an american flag in the USA is offensive. These kids were obviously "offended" by the upcoming display of the Mexican flag in the USA and therefore chose that offensive symbol to wear to school.

I guess what I'm saying is that kids have felt "dissed" for far less...and violence has broken out as a result. The principal felt that a preemptive strike on anything deemed offensive (again, given the current political climate) was necessary.

Admittedly, I wouldn't have had much of a problem if he had simply asked them to remove their bandannas and let them carry on. At the same time, I wouldn't have felt TOO badly for them had they got beaten up by some put-off Mexicans later in the day.

They knew what they were doing.

EricB

05-06-2010, 03:08 PM

Sent home for wearing American flags. God our country has gone to shit.

Fpoonsie

05-06-2010, 03:10 PM

Sent home for wearing American flags. God our country has gone to shit.

Being purposely obtuse doesn't really help your..."argument" (?)

Drachen

05-06-2010, 03:17 PM

:lol GTFO here. Is there REALLY a poll saying that?!

I guess what I'm saying is that kids have felt "dissed" for far less...and violence has broken out as a result. The principal felt that a preemptive strike on anything deemed offensive (again, given the current political climate) was necessary.

Admittedly, I wouldn't have had much of a problem if he had simply asked them to remove their bandannas and let them carry on. At the same time, I wouldn't have felt TOO badly for them had they got beaten up by some put-off Mexicans later in the day.

They knew what they were doing.

Fair enough, The principal felt that a preemptive strike on anything deemed offensive was necessary. Why, then, was the girl who had a mexican flag painted on her chest not asked to wash it off? Why did he not ask all students to put away their mexican flags in addition to what he asked of those students?

Also, I disagree with LNGRrr (sp?), I think that these kids were trying to be rabble rousers, but if kids at an american school can wear mexican flags, then kids at an american school can wear american flags. If there is anyone who is offended by the actions of those 5 then THOSE people need to be dealt with.

Also, yes, that poll is right under the story. Pure gold.

LnGrrrR

05-06-2010, 03:23 PM

Why, then, was the girl who had a mexican flag painted on her chest not asked to wash it off? Why did he not ask all students to put away their mexican flags in addition to what he asked of those?

To be fair, the article mentions that some were asked this.

Some other Mexican-American students reportedly said their flags were taken away or asked to be put away, but no other students were sent home on Wednesday.

Fpoonsie

05-06-2010, 03:25 PM

Fair enough, The principal felt that a preemptive strike on anything deemed offensive was necessary. Why, then, was the girl who had a mexican flag painted on her chest not asked to wash it off? Why did he not ask all students to put away their mexican flags in addition to what he asked of those students?

I actually wondered about the face paint. Not so much as it pertains to upsetting people, but if it fell under the same dress code violations as the bandannas.

In the grand scheme of things, you're right. In the end, it's about free speech. Each side should be allowed to express themselves as they see fit. However, as has already been pointed out, high school students aren't provided the same "liberties" as those in the real world. And if the principal thought that, if only for the day , damage control to prevent a possible uproar was necessary, I can't really fault him for that. Were he to prohibit such "expressions" throughout the remainder of the school year, then there would certainly be cause for concern.

Fpoonsie

05-06-2010, 03:29 PM

The boys told Rodriguez and Principal Nick Boden that turning their shirts inside-out was disrespectful, so their parents decided to take them home, the newspaper reports.

Also, a couple people have mentioned that the boys were "sent home." But, if I'm reading this correctly, the parents took the boys home after they refused to flip their shirts.

The fact that the article later states that none of the "other [Mexican] students were sent home" seems a bit contradictory.

Drachen

05-06-2010, 03:29 PM

Good catch LnGrrrR.

Fpoonsie, they do have limited freedoms as highschool students, but they should at least be equal to one another.

Fpoonsie

05-06-2010, 03:33 PM

Whoops. I just re-read it. "Either flip their shirts, or be sent home."

Huh. A bit extreme, I'll admit, but still.

Drachen

05-06-2010, 03:35 PM

Whoops. I just re-read it. "Either flip their shirts, or be sent home."

Huh. A bit extreme, I'll admit, but still.

would have been great if they were tommy hilfiger shirts and the kids flipped them to reveal a flag on the tag. LOL

Fpoonsie

05-06-2010, 03:40 PM

would have been great if they were tommy hilfiger shirts and the kids flipped them to reveal a flag on the tag. LOL

:rollin

Spurminator

05-06-2010, 03:59 PM

Not really.

Well, fair enough I guess. But I don't think a lot of guys are rocking solid white T's in high school these days, much less coordinating them.

DarrinS

05-06-2010, 04:00 PM

You don't think ten buddies wearing solid white T-shirts on MLK Day would be suspicious?

It has honestly never crossed my mind to pay attention to what people are wearing on MLK day as I am usually at work.

jack sommerset

05-06-2010, 04:01 PM

I am usually at work.

Waiting for Dumper of all Chumps to chime in

The Gemini Method

05-06-2010, 04:03 PM

Not to incite anything, but wouldn't there be plenty of African-Americans wearing plain white t-shirts on MLK day anyways?

Also, I find the whole Cinco de Mayo reverence here in the U.S. funny because it isn't widely celebrated outside of Puebla. Or, at least that's my understanding and observation when I've been in Mexico on the 5th of Mayo.

Spurminator

05-06-2010, 04:04 PM

It has honestly never crossed my mind to pay attention to what people are wearing on MLK day as I am usually at work.

:rolleyes

So was the principal. That's whose decision we're discussing.

DarrinS

05-06-2010, 04:05 PM

DarrinS

05-06-2010, 04:06 PM

So, is that band Plain White T's racist? Does the black band member know what kind of band he's in?

The Gemini Method

05-06-2010, 04:07 PM

I just never realized that I'm being racist when I wear my white dress shirts. I better start rockin the Johnny Cash look before I get labeled.

I'm not sure if I was inferring that you were racist. I just was trying to make a slight joke about the plain white t-shirt wearing that normally goes on for (at least around my area) the African-American youth.

Spurminator

05-06-2010, 04:07 PM

I just never realized that I'm being racist when I wear my white dress shirts. I better start rockin the Johnny Cash look before I get labeled.

:lmao

You're hopeless.

DarrinS

05-06-2010, 04:09 PM

I'm not sure if I was inferring that you were racist. I just was trying to make a slight joke about the plain white t-shirt wearing that normally goes on for (at least around my area) the African-American youth.

I was just joking. I think the whole notion of white shirts being racist is extremely silly.

Spurminator

05-06-2010, 04:10 PM

It's not the shirts that are racist in that scenario. But I'm not going to hold your hand and walk you through the analogy.

DarrinS

05-06-2010, 04:10 PM

White hoods are a different story. Those are never a good look.

jack sommerset

05-06-2010, 04:11 PM

I was told if you wear just a white t'shirt means you are a wife beater.

jack sommerset

05-06-2010, 04:55 PM

admiralsnackbar

05-06-2010, 04:56 PM

White hoods are a different story. Those are never a good look.

They looked alright on the topless babes in Conan the Barbarian, but otherwise... yeah.

Spurminator

05-06-2010, 04:57 PM

Can you ever imagine a mexican kid on the 4th of July being sent home for wearing a t'shirt that had a mexican flag on it? Holy fuck!!! You would have a fucking riot on your hands. Chants of RACIST RACIST RACIST would be heard throughout the land by far left freaks like Obama.

One kid? Probably not. Five friends all sitting together wearing Mexican T-shirts and bandanas? Raises questions.

Then again, kids wouldn't be at school on July 4 anyway. ;)

mogrovejo

05-06-2010, 05:05 PM

And if the principal thought that, if only for the day , damage control to prevent a possible uproar was necessary, I can't really fault him for that.

If he didn't have reasons to be concerned, we shall fault him for that.

If he actually had reasons to be concerned, then we shall fault those who gave him reasons for that. If there are people that would be offended by the kids using t-shirts to the point of making the possibility of an uproar a credible scenario, those people have serious issues that need to be addressed ASAP.

ploto

05-06-2010, 06:15 PM

Also, a couple people have mentioned that the boys were "sent home." But, if I'm reading this correctly, the parents took the boys home after they refused to flip their shirts.

Why not just bring them a different shirt to wear if they felt it improper to turn a flag shirt inside out? All they had to do was change. No, even the parents were part of wanting to make a point. It is pretend Patriotism at its finest that is really meant to be anti-someone.

EVAY

05-06-2010, 06:40 PM

Why not just bring them a different shirt to wear if they felt it improper to turn a flag shirt inside out? All they had to do was change. No, even the parents were part of wanting to make a point. It is pretend Patriotism at its finest that is really meant to be anti-someone.

+1.

Thank you. I just couldn't bring myself to get into this with anyone. Thank you for putting the proper perspective on it.

Nbadan

05-06-2010, 06:50 PM

This faux incident is a microcoism of the larger faux problem....Namely, Faux News..

Winehole23

05-06-2010, 08:51 PM

I acknowledge the prevailing custom that schools function quasi in loco parentis and customarily abrogate the liberties of the minor persons entrusted to them, from time to time, in light of some generally acknowledged version of the greater good or civic order.

I hope the ACLU sues their asses. It should hurt a lot to fuck up like this.

Going bonkers over a Cinco de Mayo t-shirt counter-protest provides a piss-poor example for the kiddies in addition to all of the adults involved.

Of all things to go to war over administratively, t-shirts? Really?

Winehole23

05-06-2010, 08:52 PM

Fucking pathetic.

Winehole23

05-06-2010, 09:53 PM

Improper t-shirt alert. Send the kids home. We're scared something might happen to them.

LnGrrrR

05-06-2010, 09:59 PM

Also, I find the whole Cinco de Mayo reverence here in the U.S. funny because it isn't widely celebrated outside of Puebla. Or, at least that's my understanding and observation when I've been in Mexico on the 5th of Mayo.

My wife is Mexican and she doesn't get it either... She celebrates the Mexican Independence Day, which is Sept 17th or 18th I think. Can't quite remember.

LnGrrrR

05-06-2010, 10:04 PM

Why not just bring them a different shirt to wear if they felt it improper to turn a flag shirt inside out? All they had to do was change. No, even the parents were part of wanting to make a point. It is pretend Patriotism at its finest that is really meant to be anti-someone.

The right to offend someone is also protected by the First Amendment. I don't care how easy it was to "fix" the problem, because that's beside the point.

Yonivore

05-06-2010, 10:12 PM

My wife is Mexican and she doesn't get it either... She celebrates the Mexican Independence Day, which is Sept 17th or 18th I think. Can't quite remember.
Dies y seis de Septembre. (September 16)

Yonivore

05-06-2010, 10:12 PM

The right to offend someone is also protected by the First Amendment. I don't care how easy it was to "fix" the problem, because that's beside the point.
I agree.

jack sommerset

05-06-2010, 10:15 PM

This subject is a no brainer. Don't kick the kids out of school because they wore USA t's on Cinco day. DUH.

Spurminator

05-06-2010, 10:57 PM

Going bonkers over a Cinco de Mayo t-shirt counter-protest provides a piss-poor example for the kiddies in addition to all of the adults involved.

Let's discuss "going bonkers."

We have 5 kids who got sent home from school for refusing to comply with a request meant to minimize distraction and potential hostility. Whether you agree or disagree with the punishment, the tangible consequence was that five kids went home from school and were allowed back the next day (where they likely were welcomed back as heroes).

This story becomes national news and a heated topic of conversation on all media outlets. I even heard about it three times on a sports station here. The kids are treated like martyrs for being kicked out of school for the day, their parents are pimping them out to all of the local news outlets to describe how their rights were violated, administrators are accused of "banning the American flag," and protests are inevitable because people are getting worked up about it because they think this is an attack on the flag.

What's more bonkers?

If you're still not convinced read some of the comments on the linked article.

And while I may not have been very clear on my stance in previous posts, I agree that sending them home was a bad decision... because they now have a situation 1000x worse than the one they were trying to avoid. Really it's just a case of an administrator overreacting to what he interpreted as an act of open hostility.

I can't blame him for thinking that. It's pretty clear to me, and I would think it's clear to any reasonable person (but apparently not), that these kids coordinated their flag-wear (seriously, fucking bandanas??) as a way to "counter" what they perceived as Mexican pride overkill on Cinco de Mayo. I don't blame him for being on a bit higher alert about white and Hispanic student relations given the stuff happening in Arizona right now.

What I can blame him for is failing to anticipate the ridiculous yet predictable outrage by Fox News' White American Victims.

ploto

05-06-2010, 10:59 PM

Without limitation, the District prohibits any clothing or grooming that in the principal’s or designee’s judgment may reasonably be expected to cause disruption ...

Alamo Heights ISD

Clothing ... that are offensive or inflammatory are prohibited... While it is inevitable that there will be differences of opinion as to the appropriateness of dress and grooming, the final determination will be in the judgment of the building principal. The student who does not comply with this code will be removed from the regular school setting until the student complies with this code.

NEISD

All schools pretty much have statements in their dress codes that say that the school has the right to determine what is disruptive and require the students to change. Minors in a school do not have the same rights of freedom of expression as would an adult out at a public event. These kids did not just happen to be wearing these shirts on this day. They intentionally meant to make a statement, and it was not a positive one.

Spurminator

05-06-2010, 11:02 PM

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/studentspeech.htm

Legal reading on the subject, if anyone is interested.

Winehole23

05-06-2010, 11:22 PM

They intentionally meant to make a statement, and it was not a positive one.Enforced positivity (or neutrality) can hardly be calculated to induce trust, respect for rules or toleration.

I still don't understand why the school couldn't have talked their way through it. It seems to me the lesson to students is that political controversy is too threatening to the peace of the institution and to all the people inside it, to be permitted at to arise at all. I think that's a mistake.

Spurminator

05-06-2010, 11:27 PM

The administrators should have known that the kind of kids who would do this are likely to have the parents who would be beyond excited to tell the story to any media outlet that will listen.

Everyone wants their turn to be the oppressed.

It's unfortunate because it just further undermines the authority of school teachers and administrators. And in this case the administrators contributed to their own demise.

Winehole23

05-06-2010, 11:59 PM

Let's discuss "going bonkers."
We have 5 kids who got sent home from school for refusing to comply with a request meant to minimize distraction and potential hostility. Whether you agree or disagree with the punishment, the tangible consequence was that five kids went home from school and were allowed back the next day (where they likely were welcomed back as heroes).

This story becomes national news and a heated topic of conversation on all media outlets. I even heard about it three times on a sports station here. The kids are treated like martyrs for being kicked out of school for the day, their parents are pimping them out to all of the local news outlets to describe how their rights were violated, administrators are accused of "banning the American flag," and protests are inevitable because people are getting worked up about it because they think this is an attack on the flag.

What's more bonkers?One is way more bonkers, nonetheless, both still seem bonkers to me.

And while I may not have been very clear on my stance in previous posts, I agree that sending them home was a bad decision... because they now have a situation 1000x worse than the one they were trying to avoid. Really it's just a case of an administrator overreacting to what he interpreted as an act of open hostility. Sure. Retrospection isn't always favorable to petty assertions of authority, and I agree that in this case the reaction to it ought to have been foreseeable.

I don't blame him for being on a bit higher alert about white and Hispanic student relations given the stuff happening in Arizona right now. I'm not so sure about that. Why should I bow to someone else's reality principle?

My kid's expression of personal beliefs should suffer because some cowardly administrator peed his pants over the disruption it might cause? Weak.

What I can blame him for is failing to anticipate the ridiculous yet predictable outrage by Fox News' White American Victims.Very predictable. The outrage over the supposed insult to the American flag and "white people" is a complete joke. But so is sending the kids home. JMO.

Stringer_Bell

05-07-2010, 12:07 AM

Like I said earlier, wearing a French shirt is much worse than wearing the American flag shirt on Cinco de Mayo. You'd think the adminstrators would have given more credit to the "mexican-american" students not being offended by displays of their "adoptive" country.

Bandanas were still a bit much, and I think either way this shit was going to cut someone because WHAT IF those "mexican-americans" fight those 5 kids...SOMEONE would have been screaming that the Admins could/should have intervened before the two sides clashed knowing it was Cinco de Mayo.

Winehole23

05-07-2010, 12:25 AM

In the bad old world, there would have been a fight after school, somebody would've got their ass beat, then everyone would go home and lie about it. LE wouldn't be called, and everyone would learn a memorable lesson about the hazards of free expression. I miss it in some ways.

LnGrrrR

05-07-2010, 04:25 AM

Clothing ... that are offensive or inflammatory are prohibited... While it is inevitable that there will be differences of opinion as to the appropriateness of dress and grooming, the final determination will be in the judgment of the building principal. The student who does not comply with this code will be removed from the regular school setting until the student complies with this code.

I'm not arguing that they don't have the right to remove a kid for clothing deemed "offensive".

I'm arguing that the policy is far too broad, making it stupid and ineffective, with no seeming review of the decisions made to restrict some forms of personal expression.

LnGrrrR

05-07-2010, 04:29 AM

If the admin waited until actual fighting/abuse had occurred, he would have been covered. Instead he jumped the gun, and now is getting blowback, rightfully.

I hate the fact that so many people are just willing to say, "Hey, kids don't have full First Amendment rights in school, so let's not care about what principals do or don't allow in school." Just because they don't have the right to wear words displaying curse words or violent images or the like, doesn't mean that any shirts that the principal deems "offensive" should be removed, IMO.

Obstructed_View

05-07-2010, 11:22 AM

My wife is Mexican and she doesn't get it either... She celebrates the Mexican Independence Day, which is Sept 17th or 18th I think. Can't quite remember.

Yeah, Cinco de Mayo has basically evolved into a US invention to sell beer and have a party, and seems to draw relatively little celebration outside the Puebla area in Mexico. Seems like wearing red white and blue would be as appropriate as wearing green white and red.

If those kids had been wearing the flag of France on their shirts on May 5 they could have more rightly expected an ass whipping. :lol

Clearly the mobs rule the schools out there. It's too bad.

word

05-07-2010, 12:53 PM

Maybe a T-shirt with Blackjack Pershing on it ....

Winehole23

05-07-2010, 01:03 PM

Spurminator

05-07-2010, 01:29 PM

I just don't see why the kids need sticking up for. I do think it was unnecessary that they were sent home but this is the kind of attention they wanted when they got together and decided to make a point with their clothes.

The consequences of all the attention this story is getting (undermined school administrative authority, increased racial tension in the school, increased distraction in the school, increased racial tension nationally) far outweigh the actual punishment these smart-asses were given.

Why stick up for any of them? The kids were being dicks, the kids who were offended were being whiny, and the administrators were lazy and overreacted. It's a whole clusterfuck of stupidity.

if there's anyone worth siding with, it's the 95% of the school's students and teachers who didn't GAF about any of this and who are now caught in the middle of it all. They're the real victims here.

Winehole23

05-07-2010, 01:41 PM

I just don't see why the kids need sticking up for.Infringements of the liberty of US citizens deserve consideration even before they reach the age of legal majority. JMO.

MiamiHeat

05-07-2010, 01:55 PM

So, if 1000 student vegetarians got angry at 5 kids eating a hamburger on Veggie Day or Earth Day, the principal should throw the 5 kids out to avoid trouble?

How about we put a fucking stomp on these 1000 retards and tell them to respect other people's right to eat hamburgers and WEAR THE FUCKING FLAG OF THEIR COUNTRY, THE ONE YOU FUCKING LIVE IN, OTHERWISE, YOU'D BE IN MEXICO AND LIVING ON SHITTY WAGE IN A DUSTY TOWN, YOU'D HAVE NO FUCKING IPHONE, NO MTV, YOU YOUTUBE OR INTERNET TO WATCH, and probably get shot in a drug war.

Tell these shitty "american" kids to leave the 5 kids alone.

Fuck you @ shitty principal who appeases morons just to "avoid trouble"

and FUCK YOU @ anyone who thinks the 5 kids were "instigating"

THIS IS AMERICA. NOBODY SHOULD BE FUCKING ANGRY AT ANYONE WEARING AN AMERICAN FLAG.

EVER. I don't give a fuck WHAT day it is.

Do you hate America so much? Where the fuck is the national pride? AMERICA COMES FIRST.

my god, go to hell mexicans. and go protest in Mexico, you faggots. I am starting to hate them

word

05-07-2010, 02:00 PM

Tell us how you really feel.

Spurminator

05-07-2010, 02:03 PM

Infringements of the liberty of US citizens deserve consideration even before they reach the age of legal majority. JMO.

Not to this extent, IMO.

I have little sympathy for perceived injustices committed against the PC oversensitive and the passive aggressive dicks alike.

LnGrrrR

05-07-2010, 02:06 PM

I just don't see why the kids need sticking up for. I do think it was unnecessary that they were sent home but this is the kind of attention they wanted when they got together and decided to make a point with their clothes.

And yet, if the principal hadn't done anything, and waited until an altercation actually broke out, the only attention would be on the parties guilty of starting trouble.

Why stick up for any of them? The kids were being dicks, the kids who were offended were being whiny, and the administrators were lazy and overreacted. It's a whole clusterfuck of stupidity.

Because the First Amendment protects the right to be a dick.

LnGrrrR

05-07-2010, 02:07 PM

Not to this extent, IMO.

Should we only allow the free speech that everyone agrees with, then?

Obstructed_View

05-07-2010, 02:07 PM

You have to right to express yourself, unless you do something that might make the brown people mad and then we're going to punish you to prevent the animals from doing something about it, because they don't have any self-control anyway.

Spurminator

05-07-2010, 02:10 PM

And yet, if the principal hadn't done anything, and waited until an altercation actually broke out, the only attention would be on the parties guilty of starting trouble.

What degree of altercation would you wait for, and how do you know anyone would be around to stop it from escalating too far?

Because the First Amendment protects the right to be a dick.

Again, a little perspective... they were sent home from high school for a day. Let me know when they're sent to prison and I'll be more sympathetic to their plight.

Spurminator

05-07-2010, 02:16 PM

Should we only allow the free speech that everyone agrees with, then?

I never suggested anything close to that.

If we can all agree that they were being smart-asses but they shouldn't have been sent home for it, I'm perfectly happy with that. I'm just annoyed with the whole "What did I do?" attitude. The kids wanted attention and they got it.

LnGrrrR

05-07-2010, 02:17 PM

What degree of altercation would you wait for, and how do you know anyone would be around to stop it from escalating too far?

Our country is based on the idea that liberty has its prices, one of which is security. Surely we could catch a lot more criminals if we didn't give them their own defense in court, right?

If children became verbally or physically abusive towards them, then punish those offenders.

Again, a little perspective... they were sent home from high school for a day. Let me know when they're sent to prison and I'll be more sympathetic to their plight.

Again, a little perspective, they were wearing shirts with American flags on them. Let me know when they're wearing shirts that say "Send all beaners home!" and I'll be more sympathetic to the principal's plight.

word

05-07-2010, 02:20 PM

They need a T-shirt that says, 'Thanks for the Land'. It's polite, grateful, to the point.

Winehole23

05-07-2010, 02:31 PM

my god, go to hell mexicans. and go protest in Mexico, you faggots. I am starting to hate themEither your sincerity is just visible underneath your superpatriot drag, or you're secretly in love. Tough call.

Fpoonsie

05-07-2010, 02:32 PM

If we can all agree that they were being smart-asses but they shouldn't have been sent home for it, I'm perfectly happy with that. I'm just annoyed with the whole "What did I do?" attitude. The kids wanted attention and they got it.

Este.

LnGrrrR

05-07-2010, 02:48 PM

I never suggested anything close to that.

If we can all agree that they were being smart-asses but they shouldn't have been sent home for it, I'm perfectly happy with that. I'm just annoyed with the whole "What did I do?" attitude. The kids wanted attention and they got it.

Well, first, I don't judge ipso facto that the children were denigrating the cultural identity of Mexicans. So they chose that day to celebrate their identity as Americans. Why is that being a passive-aggressive dick, as opposed to a political commentary, or both even?

You know, I think people who protest outside abortion clinics with pictures of dead fetuses are dicks. But I wouldn't begrudge them their right to do so.

I understand the whole "Children have less 1st Amendment rights" issue. But I don't think this case is an example where it would clearly cause a potential for disruption, anymore so than the case where children were allowed to wear armbands duringthe Vietnam War.

I think that school administrators should have the right to make children who wear obviously offensive clothing (swear words or the like) remove them. I'd even allow limits on certain "decency" limits, like no extremely short skirts. But an American flag tshirt is, on its face, not offensive. If people choose to be offended by it, well, that's their issue.

Obstructed_View

05-07-2010, 02:54 PM

And yet, if the principal hadn't done anything, and waited until an altercation actually broke out, the only attention would be on the parties guilty of starting trouble.

Imagine only punishing those that physically confront others for expressing their beliefs. Honestly, where do those teabagging troublemakers think they are, America or something?

Winehole23

05-07-2010, 03:04 PM

DarrinS

05-07-2010, 03:10 PM

For the record, only one of those kids wore a shirt that was quite obviously a large, American flag. One of the others had on an Old Navy t-shirt with a small American flag under the logo. The two other dudes were wearing "Tap Out" shirts that didn't even resemble the American flag, IMO. I'm surprised that these dudes even caught anyone's attention.

Oh, and if you wear a "Tap Out" shirt, you might as well wear a shirt that says "I am a douche".

NhpqfoOwQtk

Spurminator

05-07-2010, 03:54 PM

Well, first, I don't judge ipso facto that the children were denigrating the cultural identity of Mexicans. So they chose that day to celebrate their identity as Americans. Why is that being a passive-aggressive dick, as opposed to a political commentary, or both even?

What were the motivations for their political commentary? I challenge you to recreate a realistic conversation between this group of teens which ends with them deciding to wear flag clothing. Then tell me if you'd be comfortable having that conversation around a Mexican you don't know.

You know, I think people who protest outside abortion clinics with pictures of dead fetuses are dicks. But I wouldn't begrudge them their right to do so.

Most kids probably aren't allowed to bring those signs to school or wear T-shirts with dead fetuses. But that said, this is the same thing isn't it? I'm calling these kids dicks but I'm not begrudging their right to be dicks.

I understand the whole "Children have less 1st Amendment rights" issue. But I don't think this case is an example where it would clearly cause a potential for disruption, anymore so than the case where children were allowed to wear armbands duringthe Vietnam War.

I think that school administrators should have the right to make children who wear obviously offensive clothing (swear words or the like) remove them. I'd even allow limits on certain "decency" limits, like no extremely short skirts. But an American flag tshirt is, on its face, not offensive. If people choose to be offended by it, well, that's their issue.

I agree with all of that. But what I'm getting at is people were offended by the intent, not the flag itself. I think that's silly too, but positioning this whole issue as flag-banning is intellectually dishonest.

word

05-07-2010, 03:57 PM

Respect is a mutual thing, isn't it ?

Winehole23

05-07-2010, 04:00 PM

I agree with all of that. But what I'm getting at is people were offended by the intent, not the flag itself. I think that's silly too, but positioning this whole issue as flag-banning is intellectually dishonest.Agree 100%.

MiamiHeat

05-07-2010, 04:50 PM

Tell us how you really feel.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/PsychoPriest27/fuuuuu-1.jpg

MiamiHeat

05-07-2010, 04:58 PM

Agree 100%.

bullshit. It is exactly what this is.

The principal might fit your theory, that he didn't care about flag banning

but the "OFFENDED" STUDENTS DID. They wanted the american flag BANNED on their "mexican national pride day"

That's what this is fucking about. A bunch of kids who think it's OK to get UPSET and OFFENDED at an AMERICAN WEARING A SHIRT WITH HIS FLAG.

so fuck off. You aren't intellectually above this discussion, neither is spurminator.

Come down and face reality.

These "Mexican-American" little shits have been brainwashed by their immigrant parents. They basically see Mexico as their "nationality" and have no affiliation to AMERICA, where they live, enjoy prosperity, and these little shits were probably even born here in USA.

MiamiHeat

05-07-2010, 05:09 PM

and again, I want to ask

WHY ARE THESE "AMERICAN" STUDENTS OFFENDED AT THE SIGHT OF THE FLAG OF THEIR BIRTH COUNTRY?

what type of patriotism is this? seriously what the fuck?

a generation of ungrateful little shits brainwashed by their parents to just "use and abuse" america because their "real mother country" is mexico but it's a shithole right now?

Winehole23

05-07-2010, 05:13 PM

These "Mexican-American" little shits have been brainwashed by their immigrant parents. They basically see Mexico as their "nationality" and have no affiliation to AMERICA, where they live, enjoy prosperity, and these little shits were probably even born here in USA.How would you know so much about it?

MiamiHeat

05-07-2010, 05:24 PM

How would you know so much about it?

I'm a fucking wizard.

do you have another explanation?

Winehole23

05-07-2010, 05:30 PM

and again, I want to ask

WHY ARE THESE "AMERICAN" STUDENTS OFFENDED AT THE SIGHT OF THE FLAG OF THEIR BIRTH COUNTRY?You're hung up on the prop. The students were counter-protesting Cinco de Mayo. That's the supposed potential "disruption" here. The t-shirt could've been anything at all.

what type of patriotism is this? seriously what the fuck?
Idolatry of the flag and the nation aren't required, just strongly encouraged. :sleep

Winehole23

05-07-2010, 05:33 PM

I'm a fucking wizard.

http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv88/jabberwoky28/a18-6.jpg

MiamiHeat

05-07-2010, 05:36 PM

You're hung up on the prop. The students were counter-protesting Cinco de Mayo. That's the supposed potential "disruption" here. The t-shirt could've been anything at all.

Why are these students celebrating Cinco de mayo with such fervor that they get offended by perceived "disruptions" in the first place?

Why are these kids doing this? They are americans, not mexicans.

Idolatry of the flag and the nation aren't required, just strongly encouraged. :sleep

We are many centuries away from a planet that no longer needs stupid borders and nationalities. Heck, maybe even many millenia away. Humans have a lot of growing up to do.

Until then, we all need to love our fucking country, including the motherfucking flag. Even with our George W Bush's and Karl Roves, our Wall Street ponzi schemes, and all the other bullshit. Any problem we have, can be fixed. Respect it, because it's our home and it's one of the greatest homes on this planet.

So fuck you mexican "americans" that celebrate Cinco De Mayo like if it's the fourth of july.

a big fuck you.

word

05-07-2010, 05:50 PM

Funny thing is....the Catholic Church teaches...in the official Catechism of the Church, to obey the laws of the country which you live. I assume most of these 'reconquistas' are Catholic. Hell maybe they got some PROTESTant blood in 'em. Who knows. Oddly the Church can't even follow it's own doctrine, as has been seen by the archdioses of SA and now, LA. But hey, Gomez is Opus Dei, who's doctirine is not that far off from the Masons. It's the 'New World Order'. Some say, expecially the SSPX'ers, that the Church has been infiltrated by the Masons via OD, and that there are no borders and we must all live as one. The new world order. Those forces ARE out there.

Nbadan

05-07-2010, 07:15 PM

Blah...unless the Vatican is as bad at gaining power as it is at protecting kids, I don't see how anything like that works...Seriously, I see the fundamentalist right in America drifting further and further from the Vatican....maybe someday splinting like the Church of England..

Nbadan

05-07-2010, 07:51 PM

and now.... this...

MfIc8Twqw18

The Reckoning

05-07-2010, 09:54 PM

who in here honestly believes that the mexican-american students (or the principal, for that matter) would know the difference if the five kids wore french flag shirts?

Winehole23

05-08-2010, 03:58 AM

Nothing would happen. Just like (H/T, word) if someone wore a Union Jack on the 4th of July. Most kids wouldn't even get it. The rest would probably laugh, as they surely would have if a Fleur-de-Lis crewe had materialized in a Arizona middle school on Cinco de Mayo.

ploto

05-08-2010, 10:09 AM

Also in California:

Vintage High School students were suspended for fighting and burning a Mexican national flag during incidents on campus Wednesday, school Principal Craig Lewis said.

At 3 p.m., four female students were involved in a fight related to the burning of a flag, according to Napa police.

Thursday, school administrators found out the burned flag had been discarded on the school campus. They checked trash cans and found a partially burned Mexican national flag, police said.

Investigators believe two students burned it in protest for the celebration of Cinco De Mayo, police said. The investigation continues and school officials are dealing with the involved students.

http://www.napavalleyregister.com/news/local/article_2d3e00dc-597d-11df-98bb-001cc4c002e0.html
Obviously, this is not the same thing, but it does point to the notion that maybe there is valid cause for concern by the principal.

EmptyMan

05-08-2010, 10:15 AM

If they are so proud of Mexico, I'm sure the Mexican government would be happy to have their help fighting the cartels.

lol celebrating Mexican independence and then fleeing that madre as fast as you can.

Winehole23

05-08-2010, 12:44 PM

Obviously, this is not the same thing, but it does point to the notion that maybe there is valid cause for concern by the principal.Maybe, maybe not. Flag burning and t-shirt wearing don't seem very alike to me.

Nbadan

05-08-2010, 01:08 PM

Well. administrators earn their wings by putting out fires not starting them...all districts have policies on what shirts can say...most let you turn them inside out.

boutons_deux

05-08-2010, 01:14 PM

"Flag burning and t-shirt wearing"

They are both symbols of protest, provocation, disrespect, especially the "US flag" tee on 5 May.

admiralsnackbar

05-08-2010, 01:21 PM

Wow. Shit got unreasonable in here with a quickness.

LnGrrrR

05-08-2010, 01:52 PM

Obviously, this is not the same thing, but it does point to the notion that maybe there is valid cause for concern by the principal.

Liberty > security. :)

Just because something bad MIGHT happen is not ipso facto a valid reason to deny liberty. It's a balancing act.

I see why the principal did what he did. I just don't agree with it.

LnGrrrR

05-08-2010, 01:55 PM

Just for being little jackasses.

The world I grew up (early/mid 1970's, San Antonio, Tx., USA),in was way more tolerant of this, JMO. A lot of things were settled informally. That kind of behavior is excessively criminalized and clientelized now.

I think you'd have a lot more people arguing this way if kids weren't bringing guns and knives to school much more in this day and age.

LnGrrrR

05-08-2010, 01:59 PM

What were the motivations for their political commentary? I challenge you to recreate a realistic conversation between this group of teens which ends with them deciding to wear flag clothing. Then tell me if you'd be comfortable having that conversation around a Mexican you don't know.

I'm not going into ridiculous hypotheticals. You know what, I don't even care if the kids WERE racist. As long as they didn't bring it up in school, and OTHER kids didn't bring it up, then I don't see the big issue.

Was the idea that it was racist towards the other kids brought up by the other kids? Was there an altercation? Or was this just a nervous principal stepping in?

Most kids probably aren't allowed to bring those signs to school or wear T-shirts with dead fetuses. But that said, this is the same thing isn't it? I'm calling these kids dicks but I'm not begrudging their right to be dicks.

I would say a picture of aborted fetuses is obviously more 'graphic' and potentially offensive than an American flag, wouldn't you?

I agree with all of that. But what I'm getting at is people were offended by the intent, not the flag itself. I think that's silly too, but positioning this whole issue as flag-banning is intellectually dishonest.

Besides the principal covering his ass, who was offended? It mentions nothing about an altercation breaking out, or anything of the sort.

Again, I think that the wearing of an American flag tshirt isn't DESIGNED to be confrontational, as clothing that includes swear words or graphic images might be.

Isn't it a bit strange that one kid wearing an American flag tshirt might not be offensive, but four friends wearing them suddenly is? Do these shirts have some sort of racial symbiosis?

LnGrrrR

05-08-2010, 02:01 PM

"Flag burning and t-shirt wearing"

They are both symbols of protest, provocation, disrespect, especially the "US flag" tee on 5 May.

Uhm... no it's not.

Why can't people understand that giving respect to ONE nation does not automatically imply disrespect for any other?

Tell you what boutons, just let me know which days it's disrespectful for me to be an American, and I'll mark those on the calendar. I'd hate to offend people who more strongly identify with other nations in my own.

Winehole23

05-08-2010, 02:31 PM

I think you'd have a lot more people arguing this way if kids weren't bringing guns and knives to school much more in this day and age.Sure. The past is past. The present is what it is.

Spurminator

05-08-2010, 03:31 PM

I'm not going into ridiculous hypotheticals.

It's not a hypothetical at all. A conversation did occur between these kids. I cannot imagine any such conversation carried out in a way that suggests they did not want to be provocative (I've never said racist.)

You know what, I don't even care if the kids WERE racist. As long as they didn't bring it up in school, and OTHER kids didn't bring it up, then I don't see the big issue.

Was the idea that it was racist towards the other kids brought up by the other kids? Was there an altercation? Or was this just a nervous principal stepping in?

Besides the principal covering his ass, who was offended? It mentions nothing about an altercation breaking out, or anything of the sort.We don't know that other kids didn't bring it up. We don't know that it wasn't causing a stir. Considering they interviewed Hispanic students afterward who were offended, I'd say it's likely that there were some kids who were uncomfortable with it. Justified or not, I think it's perfectly natural for a Hispanic person to be curious about a group of five white guys' motivation for wearing such clothes.

I would say a picture of aborted fetuses is obviously more 'graphic' and potentially offensive than an American flag, wouldn't you?I didn't mean the clothing is the same, I meant our reaction to it is the same. We both brought up examples of kids being what we perceived to be dicks, yet we both agree they have a right to be dicks.

Again, I think that the wearing of an American flag tshirt isn't DESIGNED to be confrontational, as clothing that includes swear words or graphic images might be.

Isn't it a bit strange that one kid wearing an American flag tshirt might not be offensive, but four friends wearing them suddenly is? Do these shirts have some sort of racial symbiosis?Because, again, it's never been about the flag. It's about the motivation.

MiamiHeat

05-08-2010, 03:53 PM

It's not a hypothetical at all. A conversation did occur between these kids. I cannot imagine any such conversation carried out in a way that suggests they did not want to be provocative (I've never said racist.)

We don't know that other kids didn't bring it up. We don't know that it wasn't causing a stir. Considering they interviewed Hispanic students afterward who were offended, I'd say it's likely that there were some kids who were uncomfortable with it. Justified or not, I think it's perfectly natural for a Hispanic person to be curious about a group of five white guys' motivation for wearing such clothes.

I didn't mean the clothing is the same, I meant our reaction to it is the same. We both brought up examples of kids being what we perceived to be dicks, yet we both agree they have a right to be dicks.

Tsk tsk tsk

Once again

You say "Hispanic students" as if they were mexican citizens in Mexico, and some douchebag americans went to Mexico, and started strutting american flags on 5 de mayo.

They are "hispanic" background, but american citizen students. They are american.

So exactly why are they celebrating 5 de mayo with such ferocity and why are they getting offended at ANYONE?

P.S. It is about the flag. There are many mexicans that hate america, claim "reconquista" and wish California and other states were part of Mexico.

These kids are brainwashed and they were angry that these gringo kids were showing off that "american" flag on their day of "national mexican pride"

We might as well deport all of these hispanic kids and families right now and save ourselves the trouble.

Winehole23

05-08-2010, 04:13 PM

We might as well deport all of these hispanic kids and families right now and save ourselves the trouble.It seems your impression is that a state of war already exists b/w the USA and Aztlan, anyone brown is axiomatically in the other camp, and so deserves to be summarily deported, along with all their kin -- the stubborn fact of US citizenship totally notwithstanding.

Correct?

MiamiHeat

05-08-2010, 04:47 PM

It seems your impression is that a state of war already exists b/w the USA and Aztlan, anyone brown is axiomatically in the other camp, and so deserves to be summarily deported, along with all their kin -- the stubborn fact of US citizenship totally notwithstanding.

Correct?

where did I say that? anyone brown is the enemy, where?

you will fail trying to prove that. i know what i said

Winehole23

05-08-2010, 04:52 PM

Deport all Hispanics with their families?

Winehole23

05-08-2010, 05:01 PM

You did say that.

Winehole23

05-08-2010, 05:02 PM

I was more wondering out loud what might justify the policy for you, than attempting to render an accurate restatement of what you said, MH. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Winehole23

05-08-2010, 05:26 PM

I did put a waffling " it seems" in there for ya.

Winehole23

05-08-2010, 05:32 PM

Just curious about the Reconquista talk. You seem to take it very seriously.

MiamiHeat

05-08-2010, 07:34 PM

miscommunication due to internet. my fault mostly because I wrote the way I speak.

put an emphasis on the word "these" and you will get it

i said

We might as well deport all of these hispanic kids and families right now and save ourselves the trouble.

the unpatriotic, america hating type of families. makes no sense for them to be here. oh right, mexico is a shit hole and you can actually have a good life here, where these mexican "american" kids can have IPhone's and home computers in a safe home.

those.

admiralsnackbar

05-08-2010, 11:16 PM

So suddenly THESE kids are America-haters because THEIR principal made a judgment call?

But beyond the obvious stupidity of THAT... WTF is wrong with being proud of one's heritage? I remember the picture you posted of yourself (assuming you're not actually Mouse) in the chat room had you wearing a Italian fútbol jersey and flying a Spanish flag behind you... no red white and blue to be seen. Does that mean you hate the USA? Probably not.

Winehole23

05-09-2010, 02:52 AM

miscommunication due to internet. my fault mostly because I wrote the way I speak. It happens to everyone, dude.

put an emphasis on the word "these" and you will get it

i said:The ones who celebrated Cinco de Mayo. Not the technocrats who flipped about the counter-commemorative t-shirts? Interesting.

Did someone actually complain about the US flag t-shirts? I don't recall that from the OP.

the unpatriotic, america hating type of families. makes no sense for them to be here. oh right, mexico is a shit hole and you can actually have a good life here, where these mexican "american" kids can have IPhone's and home computers in a safe home.You think they don't like it better here?

I bet you're wrong. So wrong, in fact, that you could never possibly be right. (As if IMHO)

I never met so many MFers who had two full time jobs. When i was in college in the 1980's I met an engineer/educator from Veracruz who made more money dishwashing here -- and that ain't even the beginning of the story. Of course, if they didn't have women to cook for them, most of them would probably starve. (Disclosure: once upon a time, that was all of us, and it was me, de vez en cuando.)

I don't think you're too familiar with how hard a Mexican (I mean a Mexican-Mexican, not some pathetic pocho, right?) works in this country MH. There might be a few free riders, but it ain't the majority. Probably not by a long shot.

Where the fuck you live, MH? I live in S. Central Texas, grew up in SA. Been in Texas all my life. Motherfuckers are pretty hard here.

Wild Cobra

05-09-2010, 12:04 PM

Wow...

Miss a few days on the internet, and get a 5 page thread I'm not going to bother reading.

I read the first few posts. My conclusion is this. It shows there are those in the teaching profession that must be thrown out. They are incompetent to teach our kids when they enforce such politically motivated notions. That is, unless you think indoctrination is proper teaching.

admiralsnackbar

05-09-2010, 12:05 PM

Wow...

Miss a few days on the internet, and get a 5 page thread I'm not going to bother reading.

Story of your life :lol

MiamiHeat

05-09-2010, 01:37 PM

So suddenly THESE kids are America-haters because THEIR principal made a judgment call?

The Principal had reason to believe that these kids were very offended, and that this would lead to disruption, distraction, or maybe even violence.

The only thing the Principal is guilty of is lack of strength to discipline the mexican students.

1) This is a free country, we can wear any shirt we fucking want to on any fucking day we want to.

2) You are american citizens, not mexican citizens. Don't get so fucking upset, dipshit kids.

By sending the American flag kids home, he is teaching the mexican kids the wrong lesson.

But beyond the obvious stupidity of THAT... WTF is wrong with being proud of one's heritage? I remember the picture you posted of yourself (assuming you're not actually Mouse) in the chat room had you wearing a Italian fútbol jersey and flying a Spanish flag behind you... no red white and blue to be seen. Does that mean you hate the USA? Probably not.

Actually, the only thing I had on display was Spain's world cup futbol jersey.

and you are trying to equate that with = being offended at american patriotism, celebrating FOREIGN national holidays, maintaining an identity with said foreign country MORE than your native country, etc.

Logical fallacies, dude. don't use them

MiamiHeat

05-09-2010, 01:44 PM

It happens to everyone, dude.

The ones who celebrated Cinco de Mayo. Not the technocrats who flipped about the counter-commemorative t-shirts? Interesting.

Did someone actually complain about the US flag t-shirts? I don't recall that from the OP.
You think they don't like it better here?

I bet you're wrong. So wrong, in fact, that you could never possibly be right. (As if IMHO)

I never met so many MFers who had two full time jobs. When i was in college in the 1980's I met an engineer/educator from Veracruz who made more money dishwashing here -- and that ain't even the beginning of the story. Of course, if they didn't have women to cook for them, most of them would probably starve.

I don't think you're too familiar with how hard a Mexican (I mean a Mexican-Mexican, not some pathetic pocho, right?) works in this country MH. There might be a few free riders, but it ain't the majority. Probably not by a long shot.

Where the fuck you live, MH? I live in S. Central Texas, grew up in SA. Been in Texas all my life. Motherfuckers are pretty hard here.

I support ALL legal immigrants that adopt the United States of America as their NEW HOME COUNTRY. Those that truly appreciate America and become AMERICANS.

I welcome all of them with open arms as brothers.

I was born in San Diego, California, lived in New York, and now live in Miami, Florida. Instead of Mexicans, Miami has Cubans.

Do you know who suffers the most due to illegal immigration? Those who are at the bottom of the economic ladder. Because they lose jobs to people who will work for pennies on the dollar and live in horrible conditions. These companies, SMALL BUSINESSES TOO, hire these illegals because they can pay them less than they can pay an American, and they can practically abuse them.

Yes, I feel sorry for the Mexicans who go through that, they are hard working. But let's back the fuck up here. They came into this country illegally in the first place, they should not even be here stealing jobs and being abused. etc etc.

(Disclosure: once upon a time, that was all of us, and it was me, de vez en cuando.)

Yeah, but you are a patriotic AMERICAN now, aren't you? This thread is about these shitheads who identify themselves with a foreign country over their NATIVE SOIL to the point that they fly Mexican flags ABOVE American flags, get offended when fellow americans wear american flags, and they celebrate foreign holidays as if that's their native soil.

They need to shut the fuck up and be much more appreciative and adopt this country. This is your home now, this is your country. Instead of identifying with 5 de mayo, how about they fucking wear an american flag instead?

admiralsnackbar

05-09-2010, 02:16 PM

The Principal had reason to believe that these kids were very offended, and that this would lead to disruption, distraction, or maybe even violence.

The only thing the Principal is guilty of is lack of strength to discipline the mexican students.

1) This is a free country, we can wear any shirt we fucking want to on any fucking day we want to.

2) You are american citizens, not mexican citizens. Don't get so fucking upset, dipshit kids.

By sending the American flag kids home, he is teaching the mexican kids the wrong lesson.

That's why you repeatedly trying to put this on the Mexican-American students is silly. Were there butthurt latino kids? Yes. Were the white kids who wore the US flag butthurt about 5 de Mayo? Yes. Are teenagers routinely butthurt over most anything? Yes. In the end, this all goes on the principal -- he underestimated his students ability to work things out in an All-American way, and he chose to avoid having to discipline students who actually behaved violently by penalizing people who were, at worst, protesting something they didn't agree with non-violently.

Actually, the only thing I had on display was Spain's world cup futbol jersey.

and you are trying to equate that with = being offended at american patriotism, celebrating FOREIGN national holidays, maintaining an identity with said foreign country MORE than your native country, etc.

Logical fallacies, dude. don't use them

The only fallacies around here are your own, dude. The point I was trying to make with your picture flaunting the Spanish flag (which I'm pretty sure you were flying in the background, because I certainly wouldn't recognize or remember a Spanish soccer jersey) was that having pride in one's heritage and patriotism for one's current country are not mutually exclusive.

The kids who were celebrating their MX heritage don't have to hate the US to feel disrespected by the kids who wore the US flag to piss them off. And, this being America, they have as much freedom to be pissed at the US flag-wearers as the flag-wearers have to try and bait them.

The principal fucked up by suppressing the freedom of only one set of assholes (the flag-wearers) instead of denying both sides the freedom of expression or, better yet, getting the hell out of the way and letting the kids sort it out for themselves. So again: why is it the kids' fault when this is the result of the principal's actions?

MiamiHeat

05-09-2010, 02:36 PM

That's why you repeatedly trying to put this on the Mexican-American students is silly. Were there butthurt latino kids? Yes. Were the white kids who wore the US flag butthurt about 5 de Mayo? Yes. Are teenagers routinely butthurt over most anything? Yes. In the end, this all goes on the principal -- he underestimated his students ability to work things out in an All-American way, and he chose to avoid having to discipline students who actually behaved violently by penalizing people who were, at worst, protesting something they didn't agree with non-violently.

So we agree that the Principal should have made better decisions.

The point I was trying to make with your picture flaunting the Spanish flag (which I'm pretty sure you were flying in the background, because I certainly wouldn't recognize or remember a Spanish soccer jersey)

I don't own Spain's flag. The only flag I have ever bought or owned is the American flag, of which I have one proudly displayed in the front of my home near my front door.

It was Spain's world cup futbol jersey, but it was a fan jersey, not an exact replica, so it had "España" on the chest. no flag anywhere

and by the way, my father played Goalkeeper for Real Madrid and Spain's national team. I have many newspaper clippings and awards and stuff like that. Which is why I am into Spain's futbol team.

http://www.ioffer.com/img/item/528/494/31/79_1.JPG

^^^ Example

I don't see how you equate that with another thing.

was that having pride in one's heritage and patriotism for one's current country are not mutually exclusive.

These kids don't have harmless pride though, and the kids learn these behaviors from adults. This is more than just being proud of your heritage.

They identify themselves as mexicans more than they do as americans, and to me, that's a problem.

So again: why is it the kids' fault when this is the result of the principal's actions?

I don't really care who's fault it is.

what does it matter

what does matter is that these kids are brainwashed and are part of a large trend of mexicans who identify with mexico more than they do with america.