Article: Has Tim Duncan become a defensive liability?

[2Cleva]

When you consider that in the closing minutes of Game 2, the Suns repeatedly chose to attack Duncan with Steve Nash and Amare Stoudemire in a pick-and-roll situation, it's a fair question to ask.

The Nash-Stoudemire high screen action is one of the most lethal weapons in basketball, but the frequency with which Phoenix deployed it against Duncan was disarming for anyone who's watched the future Hall of Famer play defense since his days at Wake Forest. In his prime, few big men multitasked pick-and-roll defense the way Duncan could. He had both the intuition, reaction and agility to harass the craftiest ball-handlers, while simultaneously checking the screener. Duncan almost always seemed to guess right -- but it wasn't guesswork at all. Duncan's instincts guided his movement on the defensive end of the floor.

Wednesday night in Game 2, Duncan seemed ill-equipped to deal with the speed and precision of Nash and Stoudemire, and the Suns made the Spurs pay for that vulnerability. Time catches up with every athlete -- ask anyone who watched Willie Mays stumble around in centerfield in Shea Stadium during his twilight years. Duncan certainly isn't that desperate. Even at his most exposed, he's no worse than average for an NBA big man on the pick-and-roll. Still, his Game 2 performance clearly suggests that Duncan is no longer an asset in this capacity, at least not in the Spurs' current defensive scheme.

UuBQ0ARo0Eo

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/15752/has-tim-duncan-become-a-defensive-liability

[Creation88]

Help side defense

[flacura]

I've said that before, he is not a great defender anymore, he is really slow now, no doubt

"In the other end, Tim was named in the best defensive teams in the nba this year again and again. Duncan is really a great defender? I do not believe that. Not this year at least. "Chaning who" killed us from 3, when he wants and made those 3. Tim was defending him. He can not stop Frye?????????? Change that defense if Tim can not follow him, 3 points is the only one thing that "Chan..... " can hurt us
Tim run out of gas, in defense, he is slow, he has not got the legs to defend a quicker player like Amare or Chancho Frito at the 3 point line, he is slower than the rest in defense.That is a problem to solve"

[Dex]

I think calling him a defensive liability is a stretch, but he's not the defender he once was. The instincts are still there, but he's lost the speed and athleticism that made him an absolute lock-down defender before his knees started to degenerate.

[Leetonidas]

Hmm, it couldn't be that Tim had 5 fouls and was trying to stay in the game.

[MaNu4Tres]

UuBQ0ARo0Eo

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/15752/has-tim-duncan-become-a-defensive-liability

Already a thread on this issue including this link and post.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153560

[SenorSpur]

I think calling him a defensive liability is a stretch, but he's not the defender he once was. The instincts are still there, but he's lost the speed and athleticism that made him an absolute lock-down defender before his knees started to degenerate.

All of which are reasons why Duncan needed better defenders around him - both on the perimeter and along the frontline.

Losing an elite perimeter defender like Bowen, without a semblance of a replacement, has been as detrimental to Duncan and the Spurs, as has been the decline in his defensive skills.

[Chomag]

Most of us knew after another year giving of TD no help that this would bite us in the ass. TD is amazing even at his age but he can no longer be there to do everything himself.

Just another year where TD is expected to guard the paint all by his lonesome I suppose...

The FO has failed at this greatly for Tim Duncan most of his career.

[MaNu4Tres]

Most of us knew after another year giving of TD no help that this would bite us in the ass. TD is amazing even at his age but he can no longer be there to do everything himself.

Just another year where TD is expected to guard the paint all by his lonesome I suppose...

The FO has failed at this greatly for Tim Duncan most of his career.

Antonio McDyess has been pretty darn good the past three weeks.

[Chomag]

Antonio McDyess has been pretty darn good the past three weeks.

Agreed, Dice has been comming around but he hardly gets played.

[TampaDude]

We really miss Bowen.

[sananspursfan21]

he's still a great post defender. he's slower than he used to be, but i wouldn't call him a liability

[sananspursfan21]

Most of us knew after another year giving of TD no help that this would bite us in the ass. TD is amazing even at his age but he can no longer be there to do everything himself.

Just another year where TD is expected to guard the paint all by his lonesome I suppose...

The FO has failed at this greatly for Tim Duncan most of his career.

and yah, the FO owes TD one cuz he's bailed them out all those years without D Rob. i just wonder why spurs never kept nesterovic, mohamed or elson. none of them were great but they filled the paint well enough

[cantthinkofanything]

and yah, the FO owes TD one cuz he's bailed them out all those years without D Rob. i just wonder why spurs never kept nesterovic, mohamed or elson. none of them were great but they filled the paint well enough

This is why I can't understand getting rid of Ratliff.

[poop]

hes still as good as it gets for defending most posts. but stoudemire is so damn quick that tim can no longer keep up with him. a'm'a''r'e'''' is like Tim's achilles heel

[sananspursfan21]

This is why I can't understand getting rid of Ratliff.


yah, ????

[SenorSpur]

The FO has been negligent in not targeting/developing another player(s), who could help offset some of the skills Duncan has become famous for. The rebounding, shotblocking, post defense and low-post scoring are things that the Spurs primarily rely on Duncan for. At age 34, it's just too much of a load for him - game in and game out. Dice has come on, as of late. However, the fact is Duncan is still a "man on an island" against opponents.

It really sucks that Ian, for whatever reason, has not been able to see the floor this season. I believe he could've helped in some of these areas - and still do.

[fivehoursfree]

I'd like to see some video of other teams defending the Suns P&R. It seems like a quick, good shooting, excellent passing PG (Nash) and a tall quick excellent finishing , improving shooter, C/PF (Amare) would be a tough assignment for any team. I also seem to remember New Orleans killing us with that Chris Paul and David West/Chandler. And that was 3 years ago when we TD was younger.

[Leetonidas]

Looking back on the Rasho for Bonner trade, I REALLY wish we had kept Rasho. He was slow and goofy but he could hold his own in the paint and pull down boards. That 2004 team didn't hold teams to the lowest PPG in NBA history for no reason.

[cantthinkofanything]

yah, ????

not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing. I thought Ratiliff did a good enough job when he got in the game this year even though it was moslty trash time. If you're not going to play Ian, why get rid of Ratliff. So now Dice is the only other length (and that's using the term loosely) that gets PT. Bonner as first big off the bench is reeeeedicorous.

[fivehoursfree]

I think TD is still a good post defender, but the Suns are putting the screen way out at the 3pt line. The small ball lineups are also exposing TD. When both teams go 1 post, 4 wings, thats TD and Amare matched up 1-1. TD can't rest on D, and we need him on offense.

[fivehoursfree]

We are also underestimating Amare. This is guy that could put up 30 on us easily, and that was 5 years ago when he wasn't as skilled and TD was still in his prime.

[sananspursfan21]

not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing. I thought Ratiliff did a good enough job when he got in the game this year even though it was moslty trash time. If you're not going to play Ian, why get rid of Ratliff. So now Dice is the only other length (and that's using the term loosely) that gets PT. Bonner as first big off the bench is reeeeedicorous.


haha, 100% agreeing. i was one who actually thought the ratliff signing was quietly the best offseason move this season. that and bogans (but man was i wrong). always loved ratliff and getting him was better late then never

[MannyIsGod]

Such a stupid thread.

[MaNu4Tres]

Such a stupid thread.

You're oblivious to the point here. You read the thread then go on a tantrum.

The point here isn't that Duncan is a liability defensively. The point here is the Spurs defense as a whole is more vulnerable when Duncan is guarding Amare in the pick and roll.

[bdictjames]

You're kidding me right? Duncan is not quick enough to go against shooters, quick-step jumpers of Grant Hill. He's more accustomed to guarding the paint, which he has been doing a good job in this series.

[Cane]

Amar'e has always destroyed the Spurs and father time and not having the typical Spurs defense doesn't help. Thing is the Spurs usually were able to contain everybody but the Suns pick and roll in the past.

[HarlemHeat37]

Duncan's defense against Stoudemire has actually been a lot more stellar than I expected TBH..it's like people forget what Stoudemire usually does against the Spurs and the fact that the Spurs couldn't stop it even when Duncan was the best defender in the NBA..

As for his pick and roll D, no, he's no longer good at defending it..he's reached the age where he can't defend it as well due to lack of mobility..

Duncan had a pretty good defensive year though when you look at the stats and the defensive improvement once the team got rolling..he still makes good rotations, block shots and he doesn't get hurt in 1 on 1 post situations very often..

[scottspurs]

Tim Duncan=ALL DEFENSIVE TEAM

[MannyIsGod]

You're oblivious to the point here. You read the thread then go on a tantrum.

The point here isn't that Duncan is a liability defensively. The point here is the Spurs defense as a whole is more vulnerable when Duncan is guarding Amare in the pick and roll.

A tantrum? HA.

You should look at the numbers Amare has put up against the Spurs in the past. I guess Duncan was horrible defending the pick and roll then too.

So yeah, such a stupid fucking thread.

[mogrovejo]

Duncan's defense against Stoudemire has actually been a lot more stellar than I expected TBH..it's like people forget what Stoudemire usually does against the Spurs and the fact that the Spurs couldn't stop it even when Duncan was the best defender in the NBA..

As for his pick and roll D, no, he's no longer good at defending it..he's reached the age where he can't defend it as well due to lack of mobility..
Duncan had a pretty good defensive year though when you look at the stats and the defensive improvement once the team got rolling..he still makes good rotations, block shots and he doesn't get hurt in 1 on 1 post situations very often..

Agreed. Still a very good defender but for the rest of his career he needs to be paired with a quicker, more mobile forward, not the slow footed bigs the Spurs have been putting around him for so long - the Spurs have struggled to defend the high-screen pick'n'roll the entire season mostly due to the slowness of their bigs. If he's able to defend 5s, stay in the post, drop down to zone in ballscreens and isn't asked to cover so much ground he's still an excellent defensive contributor (still great defensive instincts, understanding of when the danger is coming and from where, great fundamentals, marquee rebounder). If he's asked to stay with the faster, more athletic opponent bigs in transition, to hedge on hard on the ballscreen and recover to his man without forcing help from his teammates, to rotate side to side multiple times in a possession, to guard the opponent best big even if it's a quick face-up 4 and still be an effective weakside helper on the top of that, the Spurs defense won't be nearly as good as they're used to in the recent past. Not his game any more.

[MaNu4Tres]

A tantrum? HA.

You should look at the numbers Amare has put up against the Spurs in the past. I guess Duncan was horrible defending the pick and roll then too.

So yeah, such a stupid fucking thread.

Never said Duncan was horrible defending the pick and roll. All I said was Spurs' defense is put in a more vulnerable position when Duncan is guarding Amare in the pick and roll when Spurs go small. Which leaves the lane open.

If you can't notice how efficient Suns have scored the ball in latter end of the 4th quarters during this scenario you are blind.

Play McDyess, use him on Amare in the pick and roll and put Tim on either Hill or Frye. If they want to pass the ball to Frye for a semi-contested 25 footer so be it.

If they want isolate Hill on Duncan so Hill can employ his hesitation 15-20 foot jump shots so be it.

Those two options are better than Amare living at the line, getting a layup or dunk, or Nash getting a running lay-up.

Let Frye or Hill beat us.

[jermaine]

Anytime a team send everyone at you in a iso, including Grant hill. What do you call it.

[dreamcastrocks]

I'd like to see some video of other teams defending the Suns P&R. It seems like a quick, good shooting, excellent passing PG (Nash) and a tall quick excellent finishing , improving shooter, C/PF (Amare) would be a tough assignment for any team. I also seem to remember New Orleans killing us with that Chris Paul and David West/Chandler. And that was 3 years ago when we TD was younger.

Camby has defended the P&R very well in the past. His long arms and ability to move his feet laterally has been a plus for him. Even he didn't do that well in the first series.

That said, most other teams struggle in guarding the P&R. Teams know it is coming, and can't stop it because of the unique combined abilities of Nash/Amare.

[dreamcastrocks]

Never said Duncan was horrible defending the pick and roll. All I said was Spurs' defense is put in a more vulnerable position when Duncan is guarding Amare in the pick and roll when Spurs go small. Which leaves the lane open.

If you can't notice how efficient Suns have scored the ball in latter end of the 4th quarters during this scenario you are blind.

Play McDyess, use him on Amare in the pick and roll and put Tim on either Hill or Frye. If they want to pass the ball to Frye for a semi-contested 25 footer so be it.

If they want isolate Hill on Duncan so Hill can employ his hesitation 15-20 foot jump shots so be it.

Those two options are better than Amare living at the line, getting a layup or dunk, or Nash getting a running lay-up.

Let Frye or Hill beat us.

I'm telling you..... Duncan defending Hill is a mismatch and a bad strategy. If you are the Spurs, you want Duncan in the lane where he belongs. The Suns would love to keep Duncan 20 feet from the rim while they crash the offensive glass.

You don't even want Duncan to defend the P&R. You want him being the weak side defender that comes in to disrupt and block shots.

[MaNu4Tres]

I'm telling you..... Duncan defending Hill is a mismatch and a bad strategy. If you are the Spurs, you want Duncan in the lane where he belongs. The Suns would love to keep Duncan 20 feet from the rim while they crash the offensive glass.

....Duncan won't be 20 feet from the basket when guarding Hill.

If Suns go to the Nash/Amare P&R Duncan won't be 20 feet from the basket guarding Hill. He will be having one foot in the lane and one foot out of the lane.

Now if Suns go to Hill on an isolation play Duncan does not need to go out to the 3 point line if Hill starts his move from there. Hill is not an effective 3 point shooter.

Even if Hill is 15-20 feet from the basket Tim will try to lure him into shooting the ball instead of playing up close to him.. Tim would still be able to move 10-15 feet to the board.

Tim wouldn't be as far away from the basket as you suggest.

I much rather have Hill take a semi-contested 15-20 foot jump shot than Nash or Amare getting layups or dunks.

[dreamcastrocks]

....Duncan won't be 20 feet from the basket when guarding Hill.

If Suns go to the Nash/Amare P&R Duncan won't be 20 feet from the basket guarding Hill. He will be having one foot in the lane and one foot out of the lane.

Now if Suns go to Hill on an isolation play Duncan does not need to go out to the 3 point line if Hill starts his move from there. Hill is not an effective 3 point shooter.

Even if Hill is 15-20 feet from the basket Tim will try to lure him into shooting the ball instead of playing up close to him.. Tim would still be able to move 10-15 feet to the board.

Tim wouldn't be as far away from the basket as you suggest.

I much rather have Hill take a semi-contested 15-20 foot jump shot than Nash or Amare getting layups or dunks.

20 feet would be the max that they will need to guard him, but a hand in Hill's face shooting a 17' jumpshot leaves him out of position for the defensive rebound and the rest of the Spurs minus Duncan aren't good rebounders.

[TIMMYD!]

Fortunately, the worst from Tim is the best from someone like Stoudemire.

[HarlemHeat37]

Agreed. Still a very good defender but for the rest of his career he needs to be paired with a quicker, more mobile forward, not the slow footed bigs the Spurs have been putting around him for so long - the Spurs have struggled to defend the high-screen pick'n'roll the entire season mostly due to the slowness of their bigs. If he's able to defend 5s, stay in the post, drop down to zone in ballscreens and isn't asked to cover so much ground he's still an excellent defensive contributor (still great defensive instincts, understanding of when the danger is coming and from where, great fundamentals, marquee rebounder). If he's asked to stay with the faster, more athletic opponent bigs in transition, to hedge on hard on the ballscreen and recover to his man without forcing help from his teammates, to rotate side to side multiple times in a possession, to guard the opponent best big even if it's a quick face-up 4 and still be an effective weakside helper on the top of that, the Spurs defense won't be nearly as good as they're used to in the recent past. Not his game any more.

Do you think Splitter is an answer to any of the problems?..I'm not as familiar with him as the international fans here, but how much of an improvement do you think he would be on the defensive end?(I realize he isn't a great defender or anything, but I've heard he's mobile and has decent instincts)..

The Spurs have done a poor job getting Duncan help up front on both ends of the floor, but the defensive side is probably the worst..I guess you could say that drafting Mahinmi was supposed to be a solution, but that obviously hasn't worked out..