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Kori Ellis
05-10-2005, 03:06 AM
Dirty play has no place in series

By Steve Kelley

Seattle Times staff columnist

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2002269008_kell10.html

SAN ANTONIO — The morning after didn't look much better than the night before.

Vlade Radmanovic and his sprained right ankle were absent from the Sonics' practice yesterday. He is done for the series.

And Ray Allen's sprained right ankle was wrapped in a cloth bandage and resting on top of a slipper.

Allen will return at some point in this Western Conference semifinal series against San Antonio, but he won't be the same. The ankle will limit his movement. He won't be able to drive hard to the basket. He will become a jump shooter.

Before yesterday's practice, as he sat in a cushioned chair along the baseline, Allen wouldn't assess blame for his injury, but time after time during the half-hour interview session he spoke about the Spurs' Bruce Bowen and his frustration with the over-the-top, physical way Bowen plays.

"He's injured other guys before," said Allen, whose team lost Game 1, 103-81. "I think so many people make excuses for him, as if he's out there doing something legitimate. But we've all seen what he does out there on the basketball floor."

Last season, Vince Carter, then with Toronto, landed on Bowen's foot and severely twisted his left ankle after launching a jump shot. "I question if it was an accident," Carter said.

This season, Carter, playing for New Jersey, took a similar jumper, and Bowen similarly cozied up on Carter, who landed awkwardly. Carter went after Bowen and was tossed from the game.

Allen flatly said Bowen is dirty. Said he jumps into players when they're shooting. He throws elbows that aren't called fouls. And, Allen said, Bowen rode him with an outstretched hand as he drove past him on the play that resulted in the injury.

"The way he was guarding me, it would be easy for me to say that he did something intentionally," Allen said. "I won't say if he caused it any more than if [Manu] Ginobli had been guarding me. I'm definitely not putting the blame on him. That's just part of basketball. But it's the way he rides me down the floor; you have to say that's possibly the reason.

"From a referee's point of view, if there's riding going on out on the floor, you have to make the call, plain and simple. I've played against [Bowen] before and when you take a shot, what he does is, he'll put his hands up, but he'll move his body right into your body. When you do that, you're putting the guy you're playing against in danger. It's just dirty basketball.

"You might say he wasn't trying to do anything to hurt you, but you just don't do that stuff. You don't run under a guy when he's shooting a jump shot. But we've seen it from him. We've all watched it."

Bowen, who is finishing work on a degree in public relations, protests that he wasn't trying to injure Allen.

"I don't ever want anybody not to play," Bowen said, "especially at this time of the season. I would love it [if Allen played tonight]. I look forward to the challenge of him playing. At the same time, I can't control what he does. If he plays, he plays. If he doesn't, he doesn't."

But Allen wonders why Bowen has to play that way, when other tough-minded defenders like Portland's Ruben Patterson play him well without the assists of extra elbows, shoves and body blows.

"Asking him why he plays that way is like asking Shaq why he dunks on people," Allen said. "That's what he does. That's how he plays. That's what he gets away with. You do whatever it is that makes you successful. If it's not a foul and he's not sitting on the bench, then I have to adjust to it.

"I respect the way Ruben plays. He beats you over screens. He'll contest my jump shot. He'll hedge over screens and knock the ball away. But he does it in a manner where he's always in my face. Bruce does things where you'll be running away from the play, and he'll elbow you in the chest.

"It's dirty basketball. You can sense that somebody will send him out there to do something negative to try and take me out of the game. That's his game. That's what he does. That's what they put him out on the floor to do, because he doesn't have an effect otherwise."

Early in Sunday's game, Bowen stuck an elbow in Allen's chest, and as Allen tried to move past, he pushed Bowen's elbow away. Official Derrick Stafford ignored the elbow and called the foul on Allen.

"He told me was allowed to stick his elbow out like that," Allen said. "I told him I didn't know about the new rule. I didn't get the memo. He's letting me get beat up, and if I retaliate I get the foul."

Bowen, who lacks the athletic gifts of all-stars like Allen, plays the game like a forward on a hockey team's checking line. He plays to disrupt the flow. He pushes the envelope, playing barely within the rules.

He has made a career and, after nine seasons, has established a reputation. And although they never will admit it, officials make some calls and ignore others based on reputations.

[B]Bruce Bowen may not be the reason Ray Allen is hobbling today, but that doesn't excuse the way he plays. And it doesn't excuse the way officials allow him to play.

nzkickass
05-10-2005, 03:12 AM
That is insane, there just looking for someone to blame. Bruce is a GREAT defender, they are just frustrated.

Kori Ellis
05-10-2005, 03:12 AM
More ridiculous quotes from Ray. I don't get why he doesn't just be quiet and try to come out and torch Bowen.

violentkitten
05-10-2005, 03:16 AM
i thought "dirty play" was going into the stands and beating down people.

this is the playoffs. bruce bowen is not new to the league. as much as allen and others have complained about him the nuances of his game have undoubtedly been scrutinized by the league again and again.

grjr
05-10-2005, 03:22 AM
Worst article ever.

phyzik
05-10-2005, 03:31 AM
I would like to see ONE REPLAY where Allen can point out where Bruce is INTENTIONALLY trying to hurt him. What a "forkin cat" if you get my meaning. :elephant

ZStomp
05-10-2005, 03:32 AM
OH my god...I use to have a liking for Allen..why in the fuck is he always crying like a little bitch.

Suck it up and be a man..damnit!

gospursgojas
05-10-2005, 03:33 AM
There are so many more guards/forwards that don't complain about Bruces play... It's just the same crybabies you hear all the time, Ray and Vince, you never hear Kobe, Tmac, Lebron, or anyone else complain.

mattyc
05-10-2005, 03:33 AM
I think Ray injured his brain more than his ankle.

PM5K
05-10-2005, 03:51 AM
Ray Allen doesn't know what dirty play is, he needs to go look at some tapes of the Bulls/Knicks or the Bulls/Pistons from the early nineties then he'll see what dirty and rough basketball really is.

And the only thing I can say about that sprain is that if it were a championship-less Jordan, Magic, or Bird, or any other number of greats they wouldn't have missed a second of that game because of a little tweak like that I can guarantee you that.....

gospursgojas
05-10-2005, 03:55 AM
Ray Allen doesn't know what dirty play is, he needs to go look at some tapes of the Bulls/Knicks or the Bulls/Pistons from the early nineties then he'll see what dirty and rough basketball really is.

Yeah thats before the hand-checking foul was introduced.... Ray Allen wouldnt have lasted a day in that NBA era

PM5K
05-10-2005, 04:02 AM
Yeah they used to be able to get away with a lot, guys would use their forearm or their hand on your hip to push you away from where you wanted to go.

What I was really talking about though were the hard fouls, elbows, picks that sent guys like Mike and Scottie to the floor hard from guys like Laimbeer and Oakley.

There were fouls in those games that were barely flagrants that would get you suspended nowadays.

Centers used to make so much contact while josseling for position back then that it's not even funny to compare it to how contact is called nowadays...

violentkitten
05-10-2005, 04:04 AM
hell yeah man and shit, back in the day a player could bum rush fans and beat them down without even being fined. yeah.

PM5K
05-10-2005, 04:06 AM
hell yeah man and shit, back in the day a player could bum rush fans and beat them down without even being fined. yeah.

LOL.....

gospursgojas
05-10-2005, 04:13 AM
Imagine what a player from that era thinks about a Ray Allen or Vince Carter crying about how physical someone is defending them

PM5K
05-10-2005, 04:16 AM
It's true though, in those Knicks and Pistons series a ref would never think of calling any of the fouls that have been called on Bruce Bowen when he's been guarding Ray Allen....

MaNuMaNiAc
05-10-2005, 04:19 AM
I swear if Allen was playing in the Argentinian basketball league he probably would do more complaining out there than actual playing. Over here, what he whines about is called "good defense". You'd think he expects people to just let him by. SAD!

PM5K
05-10-2005, 04:21 AM
Shit the way Ray Allen has been bitching he'd get mad even if Bruce Bowen went to the bench and stared at him too hard.....

violentkitten
05-10-2005, 04:26 AM
ray allen is bitching as much as some spurs fans about fortson threatening to beat people up inside. spurs fans must be pussies then if they cant handle that. because back in the day...

PM5K
05-10-2005, 04:28 AM
I never bitched about Fortson, I mean yeah he is pretty much worthless unless you need someone that can give a good flagrant foul but even still I really don't give a rats ass about him because Tim Duncan could have beaten his ass down when he was fifteen....

violentkitten
05-10-2005, 04:30 AM
well then spur fans shouldnt bitch about fortson

gospursgojas
05-10-2005, 04:32 AM
ray allen is bitching as much as some spurs fans about fortson threatening to beat people up inside. spurs fans must be pussies then if they cant handle that. because back in the day...
Spurs fans aren't getting paid millions of dollars to play a game they love, so we can bitch and complain all we want... Ray Allen on the other hand is, so he should stop crying and play

violentkitten
05-10-2005, 04:38 AM
i guess i need to spell it out

ray allen must be held to a standard based on the way the game used to be played but a guy like fortson who does shit that exemplifies that standard has somehow crossed a line.

go figure.

gilmor
05-10-2005, 04:46 AM
I like to kick ray allen's ass some day if he ever play in asia.

gospursgojas
05-10-2005, 04:50 AM
No one here said that the way the game used to be played wasnt dirty, we are just saying its called differently now and if Ray played back then he wouldnt last. Oakley of that era was just as dirty as Fortson, only the game was called differently so no one noticed as much.

boutons
05-10-2005, 06:29 AM
No mention of Potapenko's FF2 on Tony Parker?

Jimcs50
05-10-2005, 07:39 AM
Yes, but he is OUR dirty player.

:)

rwb
05-10-2005, 07:49 AM
So the Spurs are now thugs? Jeez, Tim was scratched up like a tiger'd been at him and there were hard fouls on Tony and Manu. I could swear I've heard for the past several seasons that the Spurs were the best defensive team in the NBA, but I guess that translates to "dirty" play to Seattle. Whiney losers. Cowboy up and play. I guess Bruce will get the boos on the road this time around.

Aggie Hoopsfan
05-10-2005, 07:58 AM
"The way he was guarding me, it would be easy for me to say that he did something intentionally," Allen said.

If Bowen did something intentionally he'd put a boot in your ugly ass mug and tell you to STFU.

The Coyote needs to do a skit in game 2 in a bib, diaper, and holding a rattle while wearing a Ray Allen jersey.

Shelly
05-10-2005, 08:29 AM
Oh. Shut. Up. Ray.

I bet Chuckles is really restraining himself from flat out calling Ray a pussy on TNT.

Ishta
05-10-2005, 08:30 AM
If Bowen did something intentionally he'd put a boot in your ugly ass mug and tell you to STFU.

The Coyote needs to do a skit in game 2 in a bib, diaper, and holding a rattle while wearing a Ray Allen jersey.
That would be hysterically funny, but he might get tossed for tauntinghttp://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif

Shelly
05-10-2005, 08:33 AM
http://www.robertcrosbie.com/evandando/images/ray.gif

I’ve never been too good with names.
The cellar door was open, I could never stay away.
I know it’s prob’ly not my place.
It’s either or, I’m hoping for a simple way to say.

It’s a shame about ray.
In the stone, under the dust,
His name is still engraved.
Some things need to go away.
It’s a shame about ray.

If I make it through today,
I’ll know tomorrow not to put my feelings out on display.
I’ll put the cobwebs back in place.
I’ve never been to good with names,
But I remember faces.

Jimcs50
05-10-2005, 08:34 AM
:)

Jimcs50
05-10-2005, 08:42 AM
Cry to me, those were your very words
You said cry to me, cry to me
There you stood, laughing at my tears
You said, silly boy, forget your childhood fears
But you don't realize how strange it makes me feel
Now we're exchanging parts
Stop, you're breaking my heart
Who's the crybaby now
Cry to me, cry to me, you're the crybaby now
Cry to me, cry
Who's the crybaby, who's breaking my heart

Lie to me, you know that I know you too well
So don't you lie to me, lie to me
I watch you from afar, crying up your sleeve
When they turn away,

GrandeDavid
05-10-2005, 08:48 AM
Ray Allen spewing out more senseless rhetoric in his Vagina Monologue. The Seattle press has really braced for a throttling. What chicks!

Walton Buys Off Me
05-10-2005, 08:54 AM
Basketball players are such bitches.

Spurminator
05-10-2005, 09:34 AM
He pushes the envelope, playing barely within the rules.

Someone remind me what the fucking problem is again?

SpursChampsIII
05-10-2005, 09:45 AM
First of all, the knucklehead tripped himself on the way to the basket, which makes him a LIAR when he says Bowen did it. Also, if Bowen was fouling this fool "Every" time he touches the ball, Bowen must be a genius since the officials never see it. Shuttlesworth has exposed himself as a "what about me, what about Ray Allen" phony who cares about Ray Allen.

samikeyp
05-10-2005, 09:53 AM
"The way he was guarding me, it would be easy for me to say that he did something intentionally,"

Yes Ray, he was doing something intentionally. Its called defense. I understand that you feel no one is allowed to guard you but the NBA does allow players to defend other players. Put an ice pack on your uterus and shut the fuck up.

ForeignFan
05-10-2005, 09:56 AM
What strikes me is not that Allen whines but that a so called Newspaper gives credit to this whining and even emphasizes what Allen says !

Is that supposed to be Professionalism ? :wtf

Worse than Fox News during Gulf War ! :cuss

Extra Stout
05-10-2005, 10:04 AM
ray allen is bitching as much as some spurs fans about fortson threatening to beat people up inside. spurs fans must be pussies then if they cant handle that. because back in the day...Many Spurs fans are pussies. Clearly that is so.

Nevertheless, it is comical that while Ray Allen bemoans the unfairness of physical defense, Fortson and James boast about their physicality. You'd think those guys at least could get on the same page.

Allen at least followed up his words with true skirt-wearing limp-wristed action. Fortson and James left the lane as wide open as I-10 in West Texas at 1 in the morning.

picnroll
05-10-2005, 10:05 AM
RayRay's quotes should be titled vaginal discharges.

beirmeistr
05-10-2005, 10:08 AM
That would be hysterically funny, but he might get tossed for tauntinghttp://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif

Someone else mentioned big girls don't cry.

Would the playing of the the Four Seasons song Big Girls Don't Cry also be considered taunting?

SpursChampsIII
05-10-2005, 10:09 AM
Ray the Liar
Lyrics by Three Dog Spurs

We don’t want you to leave, we want you to stay
Don’t let Brucie’s defense scare you away
Hanging on every word
Believing the things only you have heard
You’re being a fool
Bruce took your livelihood, now he’ll take your soul
That’s what you said, and convinced us all
You said Bruce fouls you on every play
“I’m not a bisnotch”, that’s what you say
Ain’t that what you said?
Ain’t that what you said?
Ain’t that what you said?
Liar! (doo doo doo doo doo), Liar! Liar!

shelshor
05-10-2005, 10:14 AM
Ray Allen, God help him, he wouldn't even be in the league if he had to play against Maurice Lucas, Karl Malone or his own coach----and Lenny Wilkens could still make him go crying to his mamma for some red clay

T Park
05-10-2005, 10:15 AM
Many Spurs fans are pussies. Clearly that is so

Oh, how is that???

Ed Helicopter Jones
05-10-2005, 10:22 AM
i guess i need to spell it out

ray allen must be held to a standard based on the way the game used to be played but a guy like fortson who does shit that exemplifies that standard has somehow crossed a line.

go figure.


I think you're comparing apples to oranges SpursFan.

Fortson admits to trying to go after people, while Bruce is just playing his usual defense and getting accused of dirty play by others.

Cant_Be_Faded
05-10-2005, 12:34 PM
Holy crap, more media bashing against the spurs....and only after game 1 of the semi's.

We better hope and pray that this doesn't lead to another spurs-nuggz game 3.

It seems to me like they realize the only way to beat us with extra ref help....

myhc
05-10-2005, 12:55 PM
That's one of the worst articles from a sportswriter I've ever read. More raining of tears in Seattle which is quite fitting. About 40% of it is just Ray Allen quotes before the guy deftly throws in his conclusion with "Bruce Bowen is dirty and officials need to call him out on it."



Bowen, who lacks the athletic gifts of all-stars like Allen, plays the game like a forward on a hockey team's checking line. He plays to disrupt the flow. He pushes the envelope, playing barely within the rules.

So if he's barely playing within the rules, then like him or not, he's playing within the rules. Refs obviously agree with that. So what's the problem here?

Obstructed_View
05-10-2005, 01:30 PM
Looks like the city of Seattle is preparing itself for a sweep, boys and girls, and they are going to go in with alibis and excuses blazing.

wildbill2u
05-10-2005, 06:16 PM
Allen doesn't even know what physical (dirty?) play is. I remember seeing Manu get clothes-lined several times in the Denver series and that's now illegal in the NFL where they wear helmets and pads. :rolleyes

HB22inSA
05-10-2005, 06:20 PM
Nothing but excuses for their own sub-par play.

cherylsteele
05-10-2005, 06:21 PM
Someone else mentioned big girls don't cry.

Would the playing of the the Four Seasons song Big Girls Don't Cry also be considered taunting?

Or how about "Walk Like A Man"?

SequSpur
05-10-2005, 06:31 PM
Please provide me with this fuckheads email address. I need to make a few grammatical responses to his last paragraphs.

Useruser666
05-10-2005, 06:37 PM
http://img26.echo.cx/img26/2536/rayallenjuwannamann6pl.jpg

SequSpur
05-10-2005, 06:42 PM
I don't get it. anyways.............

I would love to hear one writer ask Allen when is he going to stop bitching and just play ball?

Still waiting...............

jamieb
05-10-2005, 07:08 PM
http://funimg.pchome.com.tw/img_upload/SPORTS/i/m/20050503_imkillua_122907.jpg

MadDog73
05-10-2005, 07:14 PM
cute, but Kobe doesn't belong on that list.

He neither bitches about Bowen, or is Bowen's Bitch. :rolleyes

And where the fuck is George "crybaby" Karl?

Damn, if the Suns are this bad, I hope we sweep!

jamieb
05-10-2005, 07:16 PM
Yeah, sczerbiak probably belongs on that list after this stunt

http://funimg.pchome.com.tw/img_upload/SPORTS/c/l/20050324_cliff_0827_191918.gif

Obstructed_View
05-10-2005, 07:23 PM
I just saw that play with Allen and Bowen again, and here's what I think is an important point: That play happened so fast, if Bruce Bowen's feet are fast enough that he could intentionally get his foot into Ray Allen's path a half step early in order to intentionally injure him, then everyone in the league should fear him because his superhuman reflexes will allow him to do anything he wants to anyone at any time.

HB22inSA
05-10-2005, 07:24 PM
cute, but Kobe doesn't belong on that list.

He neither bitches about Bowen, or is Bowen's Bitch.
I agree.

Kobe gives Bowen his due, but still plays his best against him.

boutons
05-10-2005, 07:27 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/bamboozool2/999_temp/bruces_bitches2.jpg

NZHayden
05-10-2005, 07:53 PM
allens a pus simple as that