So, Kobe is still the best player in the game?

[RsxPiimp]

"Kobe in reality has been no better than the second-best player in the league for about 18 months now — LeBron James passed him somewhere back in '08. He still had a legit claim to Alpha Dog status coming in to this year because he'd just won a championship. But there's a big difference between being "in the conversation" for the top-dog status and being the third-best guy — and one who's getting older. And that's where he is, third, because Durant is suddenly poster-izing the whole league."



So what's the general consensus at this time of the year? People were too quick to jump on Kevin Durant's bandwagon proclaiming him as already a better player than Kobe not too long ago. Well that did'nt sit well, and that discussion never had a teeth that made a mark. We all saw the OKC-Laker series and Durant was'nt even the best player in his team. Kobe was'nt either for the Lakers but he showed a versatility and made his presence felt in the game whether by scoring (Game 2) facilitating and defending Westbrook (Game 5) and doing a little bit of everything (Game 6). Durant simply did what he was supposed to do. Score (inefficiently at that) and nothing else.


Moving on to Lebron James. His back to back MVP performance has somehow cemented his status as the undisputable "Best Player in the league" which is true to a certain extent. Lebron really is the Best Player...in the regular season. I would concede that Lebron last year at least was overwhelmingly running a one man show but this year we can't really use the same excuse. Cleveland surrounded Lebron with one of the best supporting cast in the league. Yes there were no true second option(s) but the depth more than makes up for it. And the most telling story is Lebron himself is playing at a standard unexpected from a Superstar, much more from a 2 time MVP.



To me, its not about putting up great numbers across the board, but its always having a mental edge over your competitor. IMO, this what seperates Kobe from all the pretenders in the league.

[midnightpulp]

As of right now, Gasol is playing better basketball than Kobe. He destroyed Utah.

Lebron is still the best player in the league. We can only confirm otherwise if/when the Celts seal the deal.

If Lebron puts up 40-10-10 and gets his team to a Game 7 and then wins Game 7, he redeems himself.

[mogrovejo]

Till last game, LeBron was putting 29.8 points on 50.6% shooting efficiency with 8 rebounds, 8 assists and the best defensive work in the playoffs while being the center of the Celtics defensive effort - more than Wade was, for example.

Kobe can't do that shit against a pedestrian defensive team like Utah, let alone an elite defensive one like Boston.

[RsxPiimp]

As of right now, Gasol is playing better basketball than Kobe. He destroyed Utah.

To say Gasol destroyed Utah and completely ignoring Kobe's 30+ point effort while shooting 50% in 4 games is just blinded hate or ignorance.

[JamStone]

LeBron is still a better player than Kobe. One really bad game doesn't change that. Even a couple bad games doesn't. LeBron is better, but Kobe is still the better closer, is more skilled, and is mentally tougher. Doesn't mean LeBron isn't choking or shouldn't take some heat if the Cavs end up losing to the Celtics, but I still think he's the better player.

[RsxPiimp]

Till last game, LeBron was putting 29.8 points on 50.6% shooting efficiency with 8 rebounds, 8 assists and the best defensive work in the playoffs while being the center of the Celtics defensive effort - more than Wade was, for example.

People are still caught up with numbers? Really? After last night's game, I thought y'all would stop using this to defend Lebron. Its not like the guy tried and failed. He simply did'nt try, and that to me is just a middle finger to the thousands of his avid supporters in Cleveland or worldwide. Hard to respect a guy like this.

[mogrovejo]

Now Boston is elite again...:lmao

Huh? When has Boston stopped being an elite defense in the league? You're basketball illiterate, kid.

[RsxPiimp]

LeBron is still a better player than Kobe. One really bad game doesn't change that. Even a couple bad games doesn't. LeBron is better, but Kobe is still the better closer, is more skilled, and is mentally tougher. Doesn't mean LeBron isn't choking or shouldn't take some heat if the Cavs end up losing to the Celtics, but I still think he's the better player.

So one is a better player and the other a better closer. Lets draw the line here somewhere. IMO one game matters and one game can change it all. In the playoffs, one game could be a difference between winning a title or going home.

[midnightpulp]

To say Gasol destroyed Utah and completely ignoring Kobe's 30+ point effort while shooting 50% in 4 games is just blinded hate or ignorance.

I never hated on Kobe.

But imo Gasol was a little more impressive in that series. 23.5, 14.5, 2.75Blk on 60%.

[z0sa]

LeBron has been the best for even longer than "sometime in 08".

[mogrovejo]

People are still caught up with numbers? Really? After last night's game, I thought y'all would stop using this to defend Lebron. Its not like the guy tried and failed. He simply did'nt try, and that to me is just a middle finger to the thousands of his avid supporters in Cleveland or worldwide. Hard to respect a guy like this.

Do you respect Kobe? Kobe put a much more radical disappearance act in the 2008 Finals. At least LeBron still defended, rebounded and created shots for his teammates.

[JamStone]

So one is a better player and the other a better closer. Lets draw the line here somewhere. IMO one game matters and one game can change it all. In the playoffs, one game could be a difference between winning a title or going home.

Did you believe Paul Pierce was a better player than Kobe after the 2008 NBA Finals? Or did you just believe that Pierce played better for that particular series and Kobe was still the better player?

[mogrovejo]

We don't even need to go back to 2008. LeBron yesterday was miles better than Kobe in game 4 vs OKC.

That's the difference between the best player in the game having a terrible game and a very good player having a terrible game.

[RsxPiimp]

Do you respect Kobe? Kobe put a much more radical disappearance act in the 2008 Finals. At least LeBron still defended, rebounded and created shots for his teammates.

Kobe actually tried harder than Lebron despite being overwhelmed by Boston. I saw all 6 games. Boston was a deeper team, they had HCA and was favored to win against LA.



Lebron settled for jumpers all night, this guy is an automatic offense, all he need is attack the basket and he'll either convert or get to the line, but he settled for jumpers...for 39 minutes. Even the hardest Lebron supporters at Realcavsfans.com were roasting him. Boston fan of all people should'nt mask his failure in this series.

[RsxPiimp]

Did you believe Paul Pierce was a better player than Kobe after the 2008 NBA Finals? Or did you just believe that Pierce played better for that particular series and Kobe was still the better player?

I believe the Celtics was a better team than the Lakers in 2008. This is the reason why the Lakers lost Game 4 and was blown to pieces in Game 6. Pierce was'nt even the best player in Games 4 & 6.

[TDMVPDPOY]

pau is the diff ever since being traded 2 the fakers, not kome

[mogrovejo]

Kobe actually tried harder than Lebron despite being overwhelmed by Boston. I saw all 6 games. Boston was a deeper team, they had HCA and was favored to win against LA.

Favored by whom?

Kobe in game 6 was pathetic.


Lebron settled for jumpers all night, this guy is an automatic offense, all he need is attack the basket and he'll either convert or get to the line, but he settled for jumpers...for 39 minutes. Even the hardest Lebron supporters at Realcavsfans.com were roasting him. Boston fan of all people should'nt mask his game in this series.

That's nonsense. It's not the first horrible game LeBron has vs. this Boston team, not even the worse.

Fans always prefer to blame "effort". Cavs fans are so convinced of their superiority - most of them were predicting a sweep - that they can't wrap their mind around any other explanation except their team is beating themselves.

More importantly, if you think that LeBron is having a bad series I really don't know what to say.

[midnightpulp]

Disappearance act? The MVP was PP who averaged 21 point in the series, yet Kobe still averaged 26 in the series, all while playing what was touted as the best defense the NBA has ever seen... not that I agree to that.

The homer in me has to say that the 99 Spurs would bitchslap those Celts in the defense department.

[mogrovejo]

Disappearance act? The MVP was PP who averaged 21 point in the series, yet Kobe still averaged 26 in the series, all while playing what was touted as the best defense the NBA has ever seen... not that I agree to that.

Shut up Kobefan. You can't discuss basketball outside of "X scored more points than Y, he's the better player".

[duhoh]

so another kobe thread? wasn't there one that was stickied?

[JamStone]

I believe the Celtics was a better team than the Lakers in 2008.

That doesn't answer my question.

Pierce outplayed Kobe in the 2008 Finals. It wasn't just Celtics being better than the Lakers.

Did you think Pierce was a better player than Kobe or not? Or did you just think the Pierce had a better performance but Kobe was still the better player?

[JamStone]

I believe the Celtics was a better team than the Lakers in 2008. This is the reason why the Lakers lost Game 4 and was blown to pieces in Game 6. Pierce was'nt even the best player in Games 4 & 6.

Ummm, but he was the best player for the entire NBA Finals.

And game 6 was a 23 point game at halftime. It was a blowout. It didn't matter who was the best player in that game.

Anyone who watched the 2008 NBA Finals knows that Pierce outplayed Kobe for the series. Kobe had one or two better statistical games, but Pierce was the better player in that particular series.

[RsxPiimp]

Favored by whom?.

Favored by every living body who knows that games are assesed far deeply than numbers. Look, we can go back and forth here but Boston had a HCA, trashed LA heavily in the regular season that year and LA was also missing two starters. The title that year had Boston's name written all year.





More importantly, if you think that LeBron is having a bad series I really don't know what to say.

Its not so much from a statistical standpoint but from his effort which is non existent in Games 2 and 5. Lebron was not playing out there for anyone, not even for himself, which is a shame. Im not going to speak about his performance last night again. I believe one of the more credible posters in this site (JoeTait) fessed up and gave his honest opinion about Lebron's effort last night.

[RsxPiimp]

Pierce outplayed Kobe in the 2008 Finals. It wasn't just Celtics being better than the Lakers.



Actually, it was the Celtics being better than the Lakers. That's the bottom line.

I dont really know how else can you view it differently. Celtics team play and the lack of defender thrown by the Lakers to Pierce made all the difference.
It was Vice versa for Kobe's case. Its just a bad example from your end.



Did you think Pierce was a better player than Kobe or not? Or did you just think the Pierce had a better performance but Kobe was still the better player?



Ummm, but he was the best player for the entire NBA Finals. .

Media pushed his wheel chair incident and found to be a better story despite Ray Allen playing equally well, specially in crucial Games 4 & 6. Going into the 2008 season, the Celtics was also known as Pierce's team so its only fitting he gets the Finals MVP nod. Does'nt mean he was the unanimous best player in the entire NBA Finals. Allen had his hands in the series and Garnett was not that far behind because of his defensive contributions.




And game 6 was a 23 point game at halftime. It was a blowout. It didn't matter who was the best player in that game.

If it was such a blowout then why bring Pierce's individual game in the conversation?



Anyone who watched the 2008 NBA Finals knows that Pierce outplayed Kobe for the series. Kobe had one or two better statistical games, but Pierce was the better player in that particular series.

Anyone who saw the series with an objective mind would'nt say Pierce outplayed Kobe. They offset each other. Ray Allen, Garnett and the rest of the Celtics outplayed the Lakers. Plain and simple.

[JamStone]

Wow. I think you're in the extreme minority if you don't think Pierce outplayed Kobe for most of the 2008 NBA Finals.

But if that's what you want to argue so you can continue to avoid my question, so be it.


And I'm a fan of Kobe and I think Pierce is a grade A douchebag, so while I wouldn't be necessarily objective, I have no reason to want to think Pierce outplayed Kobe.

[Muser]

To be fair to mogrovejo he's one of the few Boston fans who never lost faith.

[mogrovejo]

Favored by every living body who knows that games are assesed far deeply than numbers. Look, we can go back and forth here but Boston had a HCA, trashed LA heavily in the regular season that year and LA was also missing two starters. The title that year had Boston's name written all year.





Its not so much from a statistical standpoint but from his effort which is non existent in Games 2 and 5. Lebron was not playing out there for anyone, not even for himself, which is a shame. Im not going to speak about his performance last night again. I believe one of the more credible posters in this site (JoeTait) fessed up and gave his honest opinion about Lebron's effort last night.

I doubt a Kobe fanboy like you would think the Celtics were the favourites before the series.

Still, how do you explain Kobe's performance in game 4 vs. OKC? We don't need to go further than that. Did he quit as well? Or he just isn't that good? Because he was worse in that game, and in game 1, than LeBron yesterday. And again, LeBron has been spectacular this series.

[mogrovejo]

Anyone who saw the series with an objective mind would'nt say Pierce outplayed Kobe.

:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin: rollin

Pathetic. No wonder this guy still believes Kobe is the best player in the game. He live in an alternative reality.

Tell us, Rsx, you really love that guy, don't you?

[mogrovejo]

To be fair to mogrovejo he's one of the few Boston fans who never lost faith.

I don't have faith. I always thought the Cs were the 3rd best team in the league but good enough to beat Cleveland and Orlando, because sometimes the best team doesn't win. Nothing changed. Being a Celtics fan has nothing to do with this.

[RsxPiimp]

Heh, I guess we just differ in views and opinions. I never really saw Pierce as the best player in the 2008 NBA finals. I think his "heroic" play in Game 2(?) made enough headlines to secure his position in that series, nevertheless I think Pierce actually played quite poorly for a Finals MVP in comparison to its last 10 winners.

[The Gemini Method]

Wait, going 5-10 in game 4 vs OKC is worse than what LeBron did last night? I'm not sure how that figures into this argument?

[RsxPiimp]

I doubt a Kobe fanboy like you would think the Celtics were the favourites before the series. .

You're an idiot. Always has been when it comes to anything that relates to Kobe related topics. You can't even keep an objective mind. GTFO this thread.


Still, how do you explain Kobe's performance in game 4 vs. OKC? We don't need to go further than that. Did he quit as well? Or he just isn't that good? Because he was worse in that game, and in game 1, than LeBron yesterday. And again, LeBron has been spectacular this series.[/QUOTE]


Game 4 is not as crucial as game 5. And please, stop making yourself looking like a fool by throwing arguments for the sake of it.

Again. If Cavs fans are calling out Lebron for it, then I dont see how anyone much especially a Celtic fan can defend it other than agenda.

[RsxPiimp]

:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin: rollin

Pathetic. No wonder this guy still believes Kobe is the best player in the game. He live in an alternative reality.

Tell us, Rsx, you really love that guy, don't you?

:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin: rollin:rollin


Pathetic. No wonder this guy still believes Kobe is the most overrated player in the game. He live in an alternative reality.


Tell us, Mogrovejo, you reall hate that guy dont you?

[mogrovejo]

So, has Kobe quit on his awful games versus the Thunder or he just isn't that good?

[RsxPiimp]

So, has Kobe quit on his awful games versus the Thunder or he just isn't that good?

Lakers won the series. Kobe had a great Game 5 and 6. What's the problem? :lol

[mogrovejo]

Lakers won the series. Kobe had a great Game 5 and 6. What's the problem? :lol

I'm not saying there's a problem. You'll certainly admit LeBron has had great games in this series - a 38/8/7 shooting 62% game. When was the last time Kobe topped that? 2007, 2006?

The question was if Kobe quit on his awful games versus the Thunder or he just isn't that good?It's pretty simple. If this issue affects you too much emotionally, you can just say you prefer not to answer, but there's not much of a point in trying to beg the question. But that's the question.

[Leetonidas]

I like Kobe, but Pierce took it too his rapist ass in 2008. Averaging 26 points doesn't mean you're better. I guess Monta Ellis is better than Dirk Nowitzki. :rolleyes

And Kobe is pretty useless if he's in chuck mode. He can single-handedly lose a game for his team with his chucking, especially if he is off and shooting under 40% for one of his patented 28 points on 7-35 shooting or whatever. At least LeBron can dish out tons of assists and grab rebounds.

[RsxPiimp]

I'm not saying there's a problem. You'll certainly admit LeBron has had great games in this series - a 38/8/7 shooting 62% game. When was the last time Kobe topped that? 2007, 2006?.

Kobe never topped that. Lebron is just the better all around player. I dont have any qualms with that. But I dont think Lebron is the best player based on those merits.


The question was if Kobe quit on his awful games versus the Thunder or he just isn't that good?It's pretty simple. If this issue affects you too much emotionally, you can just say you prefer not to answer, but there's not much of a point in trying to beg the question. But that's the question.


I did'nt see anything from Kobe's body language at any point that he quit in that series, he was still recuperating after missing the last few games of the season. I mean, you should come up with other scenarios to prove a point. But specifically choosing a series where the Lakers won with Kobe playing a solid effort and all around game is quite hilarious.

[Giuseppe]

Kobe, as compromised & stricken as he is--is indeed the best player. The lack of compeition for the top spot ain't his fault.

[JoeTait75]

All I know is everything the haters always said about LeBron James is true.

[JamStone]

LeBron is still a great entertainer though.

AhJkWtA-4Y0

[LnGrrrR]

Mogro,

Do you think it was just an off-night for Lebron? What if he has another poor (by his standards) night on Game 6?

I guess my point is, how do you decide personally if it's the Celtics defense or lack of effort on Lebron's part?

[TheMACHINE]

My 2 cents.

Lebron is the better player...currently. Just like in 2006 Kobe was the best player in the league. Since then, Kobe got some help and learned how to use his help, thus making his numbers go down significantly. Kobe isnt the best player in the league right now, but he has a better chance cementing his legacy as one of the greatest. Lebron has help, just doesnt seem to figure it out yet.

[ChrisRichards]

My 2 cents. Not a Kobe hater at all despite what people say.


Kobe has'nt been the best player since 2005-2006, after that Lebron just took over. This year, Kobe is third, behind Lebron and Wade. Durant was exposed in the playoffs so he should'nt be mentioned in the Top 5 talk until he learns to average more assists than turnovers. I know I was the one who overreacted with Durant's regular season progression.


Closer. Kobe is the best this season only. Not every year or for the last decade as some homers wants to believe it.


Kobe against the Celtics. Yeah its a mixture of choking and the Celtics who was by far the most talented defensive team of the decade making sure he earned each bucket. But i think its 70% choking on kobe's part though.


Pierce. Never a fan of him and I agree with Rsxpiimp. I dont think he should be the Finals MVP. I also thought ray allen deserved it, but he was less flamboyant and was a class act and i think pierce was the captain the face of the celtics and pulled a willis reed thats why he got it.


lebron. still the best player and better player of the game. 2 mvp's cant deny that. he disappeared in game 5 but I have a marvelous feeling that he'll be huge in game 6 and :lol@ threads like this.


peace

[TheManFromAcme]

To say Gasol destroyed Utah and completely ignoring Kobe's 30+ point effort while shooting 50% in 4 games is just blinded hate or ignorance.

Dear lord Rsx, not at you but at the roller-caoster of hypocrisy this forum is.
You got threads were Pau is bashed, threads were Pau is the reason the Lakers are winning, threads that claim Kobe is washed up, threads that claim Pau is/is not better than Tim the last 2 years, threads that call Pau the REAL MVP yet is not better than Tim and so on and so on.

What a bunch of lunatics. :lol

[j-money24]

All I know is everything the haters always said about LeBron James is true.


:rollin

[Killakobe81]

My 2 cents. Not a Kobe hater at all despite what people say.

LOL


Kobe has'nt been the best player since 2005-2006, after that Lebron just took over. This year, Kobe is third, behind Lebron and Wade. Durant was exposed in the playoffs so he should'nt be mentioned in the Top 5 talk until he learns to average more assists than turnovers. I know I was the one who overreacted with Durant's regular season progression. True

Closer. Kobe is the best this season only. Not every year or for the last decade as some homers wants to believe LOLit.


Kobe against the Celtics. Yeah its a mixture of choking and the Celtics who was by far the most talented defensive team of the decade making sure he earned each bucket. But i think its 70% choking on kobe's part though.


Pierce. Never a fan of him and I agree with Rsxpiimp. I dont think he should be the Finals MVP. I also thought ray allen deserved it, but he was less flamboyant and was a class act and i think pierce was the captain the face of the celtics and pulled a willis reed thats why he got it.
True

lebron. still the best player and better player of the game. 2 mvp's cant deny that. he disappeared in game 5 but I have a marvelous feeling that he'll be huge in game 6 and :lol@ threads like this.

we will see ...I know if kobe did what LBJ did last night you would of posted a bunch of crap ...so I am enjoying this even if i admire Lebron ...

As for OP ..no. BUT I'd still RATHER have Kobe in the last 2 mins or come playoff time. dude is a killer ...Lebron still fine tuning his killer instinct. he can have the MVP's rings validate greatness. Nash is a 2tme MVP as well how is that working out so far (befoore this season)
peace

[Killakobe81]

My 2 cents.

Lebron is the better player...currently. Just like in 2006 Kobe was the best player in the league. Since then, Kobe got some help and learned how to use his help, thus making his numbers go down significantly. Kobe isnt the best player in the league right now, but he has a better chance cementing his legacy as one of the greatest. Lebron has help, just doesnt seem to figure it out yet.

agree with most of this ...Kobe is not as dominant as Lebron game to game but there is NO ONE inthe NBA right now id rather have in the last 2 mins ...and that has been true since around 2000 regardless of what the advanced stats say ...

[JamStone]

lebron. still the best player and better player of the game. 2 mvp's cant deny that.


Curious, after the 2005-06 season, would you have said Steve Nash was a better player than Dwyane Wade... because 2 mvp's cant deny that?

[mogrovejo]

Mogro,

Do you think it was just an off-night for Lebron? What if he has another poor (by his standards) night on Game 6?

I guess my point is, how do you decide personally if it's the Celtics defense or lack of effort on Lebron's part?

Off night + good defense.

I'll elaborate.

LeBron started the game by trying to get his teammates involved. I'm not sure if that's a winning strategy for the Cavs, because with Shaq completely out of form since coming back from injury, AV not being the same since the back spasms and Brown's decisions, their supporting cast may just be too horrible. Anyway, it worked. People are forgetting the Cavs were up by 8 or so a few minutes into the 2nd quarter - exactly when LeBron was being "awfully passive". He didn't have a field goal and yet they had a comfortable margin.

Then there was the turning point in the game, taht 15-0 run for the Celtics - which was due to the ineptitude and selfishness of his teammates. I mean, I can't remember all the plays in detail, but there were a lot of bad turnovers and shots from the Cavs role.players there + Garnett eating Jamison alive in the post.

LeBron stepped up and puts an end to it by creating some free-throws on isolations. The Cs quickly start trapping LeBron even when he's a couple of feet out of the arc and some long jumpers keep them in the game. Then the Celtics come out in the 3rd and go on a scoring spree with those 3 pointers from offensive rebounds + Rondo just creating on Mo at will. Just like that they had a 16 points or so gap.

Cleveland's effort to win as a team was shattered. It was time for LeBron to try to take over in desperate situation. But he was reduced to contested jump-shots and they weren't falling. And, more importantly, they weren't able to get stops, mostly due to Mike Brown's overcoaching... and without stops their role-players simply couldn't score, their confidence disappeared and eventually LeBron checked out of the game. But it was over by then.

This game reminded me not of a game 3 in reverse or a game 1 with a different end in this series, but of the last regular season between the 2 teams in Boston. The one where the Cavs do that amazing 4th quarter comeback but fall short. The differences were: the Celtics offence didn't stall much thanks to the Cavs interior defense ineptitude to even slow down Glenn Davis; LeBron's jumpers over double teams weren't falling. Anyway, the inability to get stops killed the Cavs offense. You can't expect to score consistently in the half-court versus the Celtics when you have a single offensive contributor on the floor.

Lack of effort is an excused used too often. Why the heck wouldn't he give the effort? Shit happens. I've seen Bird having worse games than this one from James. Heck, even some Spurs fans were questioning Duncan's heart and effort after some of his games this post-season.

LeBron in a playoff game versus the Celtics in 2008 had 12 points in 18 shots and 10 turnovers. He followed it by yet another terrible game, with 20 points in 24 shots, 7 turnovers and only 5 rebounds. Was it lack of effort as well? He took that series to the final seconds of a game 7 just by himself. Just like he won game 1 and 3 for Cleveland this series all by himself.

[LnGrrrR]

Thanks for the clarification Mogro.

[mindcrime]

Favored by whom?

C'mon now everyone knows that the C's were favored in 2008. :rolleyes

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/sseneker/Image1.gif

[picc84]

JamStone, Pierce may have outplayed Kobe in the 08 finals, but why did he outplay him?

Was he actually the better player in that series or were there other reasons? I can think of at least 3. What are your's?

[HarlemHeat37]

The problem with Kobe fans is that they're always changing the criteria for the best player in the NBA..

If you've been on NBA message boards for a long time, this should be obvious to anybody..I've been on NBA forums since 2002, one of them being the most populated one in RealGM, and I can tell you that Al-Quobe is always changing the argument, depending on Kobe's role at the time..

In 2006, Kobe was apparently the best player in the NBA due to his scoring..I don't have a problem with this..personally, I thought Wade was the best, but I don't mind the Kobe argument..

In 2007, it was the same argument..despite Duncan leading a team to a title and dominating advanced metrics and +/- IIRC..despite Lebron having a dominant season, Kobe still had the media and casual fan edge due to his scoring..

Laker fans at this time always said winning and supporting cast is irrelevant, because Kobe can only do so much..I don't have a problem with this..

Following the Gasol trade, that's when things start getting iffy..the arguments changed, and now all of a sudden it's about rings and winning..the stats became irrelevant if you aren't winning..now the argument is centered around being clutch and mental edge, because those are the only things they can use in their arguments..

Kobe fans love to use arguments that can't be quantified..random NBA opinions, basketball IQ, mental edge, work ethic, determination and focus..and defense, since the stats aren't as advanced yet..they use these arguments because they don't have to back themselves up, it's just a bullshit way for arguing for somebody..

Kobe fan loved to use his stats in 2006 and 2007, because his scoring stats were his sole advantage in the argument..this hasn't been the case the past few years, so now they hate stats..

I just can't see any argument to be putting Kobe ahead of Lebron, especially since Kobe clearly hasn't been the best player on his team during the playoffs..

[HarlemHeat37]

Also, Jamison is the 2nd most talented player on the Cavs..if you put him on the Lakers, he's behind Bynum and Odom without a doubt..

[JamStone]

JamStone, Pierce may have outplayed Kobe in the 08 finals, but why did he outplay him?

Was he actually the better player in that series or were there other reasons? I can think of at least 3. What are your's?


I think back at the time of the 2008 NBA Finals, Kobe was a better player than Paul Pierce. And after the NBA Finals, I still thought Kobe was the better player. However, for the actual NBA Finals, I think Paul Pierce outplayed Kobe and was the better player for that Finals series.

What were the reasons? Probably several. At the time, the talent might have been about even for the two teams, but Pierce had the better, more cohesive "team" around him. Kobe didn't fully trust his teammates and Gasol and Odom played like vaginas. Not every game, but Kobe had his moments in those Finals where he did go into Kobe mode. And I do think in the back of his mind, he was still concerned with winning that elusive Finals MVP and played for glory more than playing to make sure the Lakers actually won the title. That approach was partly to blame. But I would also say that the Celtics as a whole just played better than the Lakers as a hole.

You can add, amend, and delete those reasons as you wish. I don't really care either way what the reasons were, but Paul Pierce for that NBA Finals was a better player and outplayed Kobe.

[Ghazi]

:lmao I just noticed the asterisk on the 1st trophy

[TheMACHINE]

blah blah blah..at the end of the year, Kobe will have 5. Damn! thats more rings then the Spurs franchise.

[Leetonidas]

The problem with Kobe fans is that they're always changing the criteria for the best player in the NBA..

If you've been on NBA message boards for a long time, this should be obvious to anybody..I've been on NBA forums since 2002, one of them being the most populated one in RealGM, and I can tell you that Al-Quobe is always changing the argument, depending on Kobe's role at the time..

In 2006, Kobe was apparently the best player in the NBA due to his scoring..I don't have a problem with this..personally, I thought Wade was the best, but I don't mind the Kobe argument..

In 2007, it was the same argument..despite Duncan leading a team to a title and dominating advanced metrics and +/- IIRC..despite Lebron having a dominant season, Kobe still had the media and casual fan edge due to his scoring..

Laker fans at this time always said winning and supporting cast is irrelevant, because Kobe can only do so much..I don't have a problem with this..

Following the Gasol trade, that's when things start getting iffy..the arguments changed, and now all of a sudden it's about rings and winning..the stats became irrelevant if you aren't winning..now the argument is centered around being clutch and mental edge, because those are the only things they can use in their arguments..

Kobe fans love to use arguments that can't be quantified..random NBA opinions, basketball IQ, mental edge, work ethic, determination and focus..and defense, since the stats aren't as advanced yet..they use these arguments because they don't have to back themselves up, it's just a bullshit way for arguing for somebody..

Kobe fan loved to use his stats in 2006 and 2007, because his scoring stats were his sole advantage in the argument..this hasn't been the case the past few years, so now they hate stats..

I just can't see any argument to be putting Kobe ahead of Lebron, especially since Kobe clearly hasn't been the best player on his team during the playoffs..

:lmao

So true man, that I couldn't have said better myself. Let's be clear, I fucking hate LeCrab but there's no denying that he is the best player in the NBA and he has been since 2008.

One bad game and all of a sudden LeBron isn't as good as Kobe when Kobe had a couple awful games in the OKC series.

[Allanon]

You know tha Kobe Haters are shakin in they boots with #5 looking more and more likely. :lol

[RsxPiimp]

I think back at the time of the 2008 NBA Finals, Kobe was a better player than Paul Pierce. And after the NBA Finals, I still thought Kobe was the better player. However, for the actual NBA Finals, I think Paul Pierce outplayed Kobe and was the better player for that Finals series.
I don't really care either way what the reasons were, but Paul Pierce for that NBA Finals was a better player and outplayed Kobe.



In 6 games here were their averages


Paul Pierce

21.83 PPG
43% FG (38/88)
29% 3FG(11/37)
4.6 RPG
6.8 APG
1.1 SPG

Kobe Bryant

24.00 PPG
44% FG (53/121)
48% 3FG (13/27)
4.8 RPG
4.0 APG
2.7 SPG




I just cant see how you can pull the Paul Pierce "outplayed" Kobe card on this one.

[RsxPiimp]

JamStone, Pierce may have outplayed Kobe in the 08 finals, but why did he outplay him?

Was he actually the better player in that series or were there other reasons? I can think of at least 3. What are your's?

Of course he did not outplayed Kobe. I already showed the numbers. Pierce also logged the worst game between the two in that series (2/14, 6 pts. game 5 loss).


Pierce was also not even best player in game 6. Garnett, Allen and even Rondo had a bigger game than Paul.

[boston.balla]

kobe ain't winning shit without the size la has. Rings are something only hakeem in his prime gets without another allstar.

[JamStone]

In 6 games here were their averages


Paul Pierce

21.83 PPG
43% FG (38/88)
29% 3FG(11/37)
4.6 RPG
6.8 APG
1.1 SPG

Kobe Bryant

24.00 PPG
44% FG (53/121)
48% 3FG (13/27)
4.8 RPG
4.0 APG
2.7 SPG




I just cant see how you can pull the Paul Pierce "outplayed" Kobe card on this one.


First of all, remember when you posted this in this very thread?


People are still caught up with numbers? Really?


The numbers are similar but don't go Hollinger for your argument and rely simply on the stats. If you watched the games, you would know Pierce outplayed Kobe. It was evident. He also took on the challenge of guarding Kobe late in games. If you look only at the series stats, you could argue they played each other even. Having actually watched those NBA Finals, you wouldn't argue that at all.

[RsxPiimp]

C'mon now everyone knows that the C's were favored in 2008. :rolleyes

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/sseneker/Image1.gif

Come on now. Who takes these people seriously when it comes to predictions? I remember a few years ago in RealGM and almost any other basketball fan(san die hard Laker fans) has Boston winning the title. There was no debate about it then.

[LnGrrrR]

43% FG (38/88) vs 44% FG (53/121)

Here is a key reason.

Kobe felt the need to be a hero, and put up more shots than he probably should have, which stalled the offense.

I mean, look at the disparity. Kobe averaged 24 PPG off roughly 20 shots per game.

Pierce averaged 21 PPG off 14 2/3 shots per game.

[TheMACHINE]

kobe ain't winning shit without the size la has. Rings are something only hakeem in his prime gets without another allstar.

yah only 2 legit championships in the history of the NBA. :rolleyes

[RsxPiimp]

First of all, remember when you posted this in this very thread?.

Are you really going to use that statement between Pierce and Kobe? That was specifically for Lebron's non effort showing in game 5.

:rolleyes





The numbers are similar but don't go Hollinger for your argument and rely simply on the stats. If you watched the games, you would know Pierce outplayed Kobe. ?.
I saw the games. All 6 of them. Every minute. Thats why I have a problem with your statement, without proving other than "Well, he did" excuse.


Pierce was a no show on Games 5 and 6. Kobe shot the ball slightly better. He scored more. Pierce racked higher assist numbers, but with LA's defense who would'nt.


Again, tell us how Pierce outplayed Kobe other than going by "I said so" attitude. That wont cut it.



It was evident. He also took on the challenge of guarding Kobe late in games. If you look only at the series stats, you could argue they played each other even. Having actually watched those NBA Finals, you wouldn't argue that at all.

You're clearly misrepresenting Paul Pierce's defense to that of the whole Celtics team who shut Kobe's offensive game plan all along. Pierces defense on Kobe was not evident. Boston's perfect execution however was.

[mogrovejo]

One of the reasons Pierce was so good was because he was being guarded by Radmanovic because the Lakers best perimeter defender was too busy defending Eddie House or roaming off Rondo.

[boston.balla]

yah only 2 legit championships in the history of the NBA. :rolleyes

I don't care about the legitness. Kobe is an awesome player but, like mj, his game NEEDS a very good big defending and rebounding frontcourt, which is a limitation on the team (all the fucks who not remeber oakley and rodman cause of excessive jackoff to mj/pippen should give the idea some thought). This is basically applied to all guard who ever lived.

As a center things are slightly different cause you impact the game alot more. As in you control the paint, you control who has the most possessions and easy basket opportunities. No need to add that this translates to rings.

[LnGrrrR]

Again, tell us how Pierce outplayed Kobe other than going by "I said so" attitude. That wont cut it.



Kobe averaged 24 PPG off roughly 20 shots per game.

Pierce averaged 21 PPG off 14 2/3 shots per game.

[mogrovejo]

LeBron is averaging 26.8ppg on a TS% of 56.5% along with 7.4rpg and 6.6apg while shutting down Paul Pierce defensively (or whoever he's defending)

In the first round, he went for 31.4ppg on a TS% of 66.8% along with 9.2rpg and 8.2apg.

LeBron has been the best player in this playoffs by far and away. He had a bad game yesterday but he had 4 equal or worse the last time he played the Cs in the playoffs.

[RsxPiimp]

One of the reasons Pierce was so good was because he was being guarded by Radmanovic because the Lakers best perimeter defender was too busy defending Eddie House or roaming off Rondo.

Radmanovic, Walton and Ariza who came off a foot injury tried for a very, very short spurt. Im surprised Pierce did'nt shot better than that considering LA's defense was a freeway for any perimeter players who wishes to attack.

[RsxPiimp]

...

Wait so your reasoning is because Kobe shot more in the series therefore you conlcude that Pierce outplayed Kobe? Ever thought maybe because the Lakers needed Kobe to shoot more after Odom and Gasol had disappearing acts?

[LnGrrrR]

Wait so you're reasoning is because Kobe shot more in the series therefore he it equates to Pierce outplaying Kobe? Ever thought maybe because the Lakers needed Kobe to shoot more after Odom and Gasol had disappearing acts?

That's why I said "probably" in the previous post. Pierce was more efficient at scoring points.

Would the Lakers have been better off if Kobe passed the rock more? It's arguable, I think. His teammates weren't doing great, but that doesn't mean that Kobe should just try to "get his". If they had better ball rotation they may have freed up players for better shots.

[Pero]

kobe ain't winning shit without the size la has. Rings are something only hakeem in his prime gets without another allstar.

Duncan says hi. :p:

[RsxPiimp]

That's why I said "probably" in the previous post. Pierce was more efficient at scoring points.

Would the Lakers have been better off if Kobe passed the rock more? It's arguable, I think. His teammates weren't doing great, but that doesn't mean that Kobe should just try to "get his". If they had better ball rotation they may have freed up players for better shots.

I never thought it was the ball rotation or the execution for that matter. No one in LA was hitting jack shit anyway in that series. Plain and simple. Celtics were the better team. They ranked # 1 in defensive efficiency ang KG rightfully earned the DPOY award that year for a reason. Additionally, the Lakers were full of finesse players with no size. Gasol and Odom is simply not going to stop Kendrick Perkins, Kevin Garnett and not even Leon Powe. And im not even going to start with the guards.

[LnGrrrR]

I never thought it was the ball rotation or the execution for that matter. No one in LA was hitting jack shit anyway in that series. Plain and simple. Celtics were the better team. They ranked # 1 in defensive efficiency ang KG rightfully earned the DPOY award that year for a reason. Additionally, the Lakers were full of finesse players with no size. Gasol and Odom is simply not going to stop Kendrick Perkins, Kevin Garnett and not even Leon Powe. And im not even going to start with the guards.

That's cool, and I don't have a problem with people thinking Kobe needed to take over. I just wanted to point out that PP WAS more efficient, scoring only 3 pts less on 6 less shots per game. You said you wanted stats that could argue in favor of Pierce; I gave them to you. :)

[boston.balla]

Duncan says hi. :p:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1994.html

Take a good look at that roster. That's the second most appalling roster (not counting the dominant superstar) that reached the nba finals. First is ofc cavs 2007.

Duncan had robinon, raw but talented manu + good balanced roster, manu&tony+roster.

[Pero]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1994.html

Take a good look at that roster. That's the second most appalling roster (not counting the dominant superstar) that reached the nba finals. First is ofc cavs 2007.

Duncan had robinon, raw but talented manu + good balanced roster, manu&tony+roster.

Robinson was half tetraplegic by that time. :lol
Anyway you didn't say anything about worst team or something like that. You said "without another all-star". And there sure as hell were no all-stars on that Spurs team.

[JamStone]

Are you really going to use that statement between Pierce and Kobe? That was specifically for Lebron's non effort showing in game 5.

:rolleyes

Your quote. That's all I'm saying.




I saw the games. All 6 of them. Every minute. Thats why I have a problem with your statement, without proving other than "Well, he did" excuse.


Pierce was a no show on Games 5 and 6. Kobe shot the ball slightly better. He scored more. Pierce racked higher assist numbers, but with LA's defense who would'nt.

Paul Pierce scored 38 points in game 5 and seemed like the only Celtic who wasn't content with just stealing one of the middle three games in LA, while most of the rest of the Celtics played like it was a get-away game, happy to close the Finals at Boston.

Seems you choose to ignore how Pierce did outplay Kobe in games 1 and 2 (edit), and you go straight at game 4 and game 6 because that's your only conceivably decent argument. Don't worry, I'll get to games 4 and 6.

I will shortly address game 6 after your following quote.



Again, tell us how Pierce outplayed Kobe other than going by "I said so" attitude. That wont cut it.

I think you'll even concede that Pierce outplayed Kobe in games 1 and 2.

Pierce had a horrible shooting/scoring performance in game 3, which actually makes it pretty impressive that his stats were still comparable with Kobe's and he still shot better from the field for the series.

Now you attacked Pierce's performances in games 4 and 6. You also stated that you watched each minute of all the games. I find it hard to believe.

Game 4: Remember, this was the game of the Lakers' monumental collapse. They led in the first half by 24 points. They led at halftime by 18 points. The game started to turn around late in the second quarter. In the second half, the game had a 24 point turnaround. In that crucial second half that pretty much decided the game, here are Pierce's stats and Kobe's stats:

Pierce: 14 points on 4-for-7 shooting and 5 assists
Kobe: 14 points on 6-for-14 shooting and 4 assists

Similar points and assists, but look at scoring efficiency and consider that Kobe's team was up 18 points at half while Pierce's team was trying to climb back into the game. Given the circumstances of that second half, Pierce outplayed Kobe even though if you look at the game stats you might not think that way. Kobe shot 6-for-19 for the entire game by the way.

Game 6: This was a blowout win for the Celtics so it's hard to evaluate game stats when it's like that. But I will say this. After one quarter, it was a 4 point game. At halftime, the Celtics led 58-35 and never looked back. The second quarter basically determined the outcome of that game and essentially won the Celtics their 2008 title. Here are the stats for Kobe and Pierce in that second quarter:

Kobe: 3 points (all on technical free throws), 0-for-4 from the field, 0 assists, 2 turnovers
Pierce: 8 points and 6 assists

After that second quarter, the Celtics never looked back. And Kobe laid and egg as he watched his team fall 20 points on the road in an elimination game.


You're clearly misrepresenting Paul Pierce's defense to that of the whole Celtics team who shut Kobe's offensive game plan all along. Pierces defense on Kobe was not evident. Boston's perfect execution however was.

Pierce didn't guard Kobe the entire series and his teammates definitely helped. But there were a couple of crucial possessions (in I forget but one of the first two games, maybe both) where Pierce's defense really helped win the game. I'd have to go back and look at what I vaguely remember.

[jacobdrj]

Of players still not eliminated from the 2010 title, yes he is the best. But D-Wade is the 2010 MVP...

[picc84]

I think back at the time of the 2008 NBA Finals, Kobe was a better player than Paul Pierce. And after the NBA Finals, I still thought Kobe was the better player. However, for the actual NBA Finals, I think Paul Pierce outplayed Kobe and was the better player for that Finals series.

What were the reasons? Probably several. At the time, the talent might have been about even for the two teams, but Pierce had the better, more cohesive "team" around him. Kobe didn't fully trust his teammates and Gasol and Odom played like vaginas. Not every game, but Kobe had his moments in those Finals where he did go into Kobe mode. And I do think in the back of his mind, he was still concerned with winning that elusive Finals MVP and played for glory more than playing to make sure the Lakers actually won the title. That approach was partly to blame. But I would also say that the Celtics as a whole just played better than the Lakers as a hole.

You can add, amend, and delete those reasons as you wish. I don't really care either way what the reasons were, but Paul Pierce for that NBA Finals was a better player and outplayed Kobe.

In short, these are the reasons Pierce outplayed Kobe in the finals.

1. The Celtics defense was lightyears ahead of the Lakers, ranking as one of the greatest team defenses in NBA history.

2. Pierce had far less offensive responsibility than Kobe did, which coupled with the difference between the defenses made his offense much, much easier to come by energy and opportunity wise.

Kobe was the primary ballhandler, playmaker, and scorer for the Lakers. He had to do everything for that team. Allen and Rondo both helped handle ballhandling and playmaking duties for Boston. Because of the versatility of the Celtics offense, the Lakers couldn't focus on stopping one player like Boston could. We had to worry about Allen, Garnett, Rondo, AND Pierce, who each took over games in the finals. The Celtics only had one player they worried about - Kobe.

Pierce had more spot up shooting opportunities in that series than Kobe did the whole playoffs. Kobe NEVER had an easy shot because of both the defense and how the offense relied on him to do everything.

Pierce had a shitty game 6 and the Celtics still blew us out - if Kobe had that kind of game the Lakers were finished. There was no equal talent on those teams, Boston had a 10 game lead on us and 3 HOF players along with a young stud point guard, and a bench that completely annihilated our's throughout the series. They were the better and more talented team through and through.

3. The primary defender on Kobe was Allen and Posey. Pierce for most stretches guarded Radman, while Kobe was on Rondo. Both conserving energy right? Difference being Pierce didnt have to guard Radman, who just stood around waiting for a kickout, while Kobe still had to chase Rondo around while he had the ball, even if he was playing off him. Kobe actually DID have to play defense on Rondo.

So its no wonder Pierce had the energy to guard Kobe at the end of those games, he had tons more energy both from having less offensive responsibility and less defensive responsibility. Along with having the rest of the alltime Boston defense backing him up.

4. Kobe did take Pierce at the end of a few games, only Garnett would come to set one of his famous "screens" and Pierce would be gone and to the rim. Why? Because LA's interior and help defense was complete shit compared to Boston's. Kobe gets a screen at the top of the key and Garnett/Perkins/Posey/Brown are all over him and he's forcing a pass to Fisher or Odom, both of whom shit the bed.

Yes, Pierce outplayed Kobe in the series. But there are numerous reasons why outside of "Pierce was the better player". Their team defense was astronomically better, and their offense was much less reliant on one player, not to mention the conveniently illegal defense they got away with all year.

Put Kobe on the Celtics and Pierce on the Lakers, and Boston sweeps LA by an average of 20 with Pierce putting up 2010 Iverson numbers.

[HarlemHeat37]

Put Lebron on the Lakers and they probably go 16 wins and 1-2 losses TBH..

[JamStone]

In short, these are the reasons Pierce outplayed Kobe in the finals.

1. The Celtics defense was lightyears ahead of the Lakers, ranking as one of the greatest team defenses in NBA history.

2. Pierce had far less offensive responsibility than Kobe did, which coupled with the difference between the defenses made his offense much, much easier to come by energy and opportunity wise.

Kobe was the primary ballhandler, playmaker, and scorer for the Lakers. He had to do everything for that team. Allen and Rondo both helped handle ballhandling and playmaking duties for Boston. Because of the versatility of the Celtics offense, the Lakers couldn't focus on stopping one player like Boston could. We had to worry about Allen, Garnett, Rondo, AND Pierce, who each took over games in the finals. The Celtics only had one player they worried about - Kobe.

Pierce had more spot up shooting opportunities in that series than Kobe did the whole playoffs. Kobe NEVER had an easy shot because of both the defense and how the offense relied on him to do everything.

Pierce had a shitty game 6 and the Celtics still blew us out - if Kobe had that kind of game the Lakers were finished. There was no equal talent on those teams, Boston had a 10 game lead on us and 3 HOF players along with a young stud point guard, and a bench that completely annihilated our's throughout the series. They were the better and more talented team through and through.

3. The primary defender on Kobe was Allen and Posey. Pierce for most stretches guarded Radman, while Kobe was on Rondo. Both conserving energy right? Difference being Pierce didnt have to guard Radman, who just stood around waiting for a kickout, while Kobe still had to chase Rondo around while he had the ball, even if he was playing off him. Kobe actually DID have to play defense on Rondo.

So its no wonder Pierce had the energy to guard Kobe at the end of those games, he had tons more energy both from having less offensive responsibility and less defensive responsibility. Along with having the rest of the alltime Boston defense backing him up.

4. Kobe did take Pierce at the end of a few games, only Garnett would come to set one of his famous "screens" and Pierce would be gone and to the rim. Why? Because LA's interior and help defense was complete shit compared to Boston's. Kobe gets a screen at the top of the key and Garnett/Perkins/Posey/Brown are all over him and he's forcing a pass to Fisher or Odom, both of whom shit the bed.

Yes, Pierce outplayed Kobe in the series. But there are numerous reasons why outside of "Pierce was the better player". Their team defense was astronomically better, and their offense was much less reliant on one player, not to mention the conveniently illegal defense they got away with all year.

Put Kobe on the Celtics and Pierce on the Lakers, and Boston sweeps LA by an average of 20 with Pierce putting up 2010 Iverson numbers.

I might mildly disagree with some of your points, but for the most part I don't disagree with them.

But as I already said, I didn't get into the reasons why nor does that really change what I said. Paul Pierce outplayed Kobe Bryant in the 2008 NBA Finals. You can justify it with whatever reasoning and/or logic you want. Pierce still outplayed Kobe in that series.

[TheMACHINE]

Put Lebron on the Lakers and they probably go 16 wins and 1-2 losses TBH..


Derek Fisher
Shanon Brown
Lebron James
Pau Gasol
Andrew Bynum

vs

Mo Williams
Kobe Bryant
Antawn Jamison
Anderson Varejao
Shaquille O'Neal

[TD 21]

Bryant never was the best player in the game. This is myth, nothing more than media created propaganda, because he plays in a big market, sells tons of shoes and jerseys, has a game and personality that resemble Jordan and scores a million points.

The truth of the matter is, post Jordan, it went: O'Neal-Duncan-James. This notion that "James passed Bryant in '08" is ridiculous. Did people just start following the league or did they have no idea what they were watching and were brainwashed by the media's obsession with players of their ilk?

From 02-08, the general consensus was that Duncan was the best player in the game. Yet somehow that all changed with the Gasol trade and the Lakers sudden rise. People act like that never happened now.

[Allanon]

3-peat years

81 points, only surpassed by Wilt

Ring again in 2009 and chance for a repeat in 2010

Rings and statistical dominance...the only constant here is Kobe Bean Bryant

[HarlemHeat37]

Kobe doesn't have statistical dominance outside of "points scored", and he only has 1 ring as a main guy..only 1 MVP as well..it doesn't exactly scream dominance..

The only constant with Kobe is that he has a cult following with his fans that talk the same shit, and the media that talks the same shit, playing with perception..Al-Quobe, the terrorist organization..

[Allanon]

Majority vs minority.

I'm sure there are some that believe Jordan, Bird, Magic, Wilt were over-rated.

Everybody has the right to an opinion on either side...I'm cool with that.

[picc84]

I might mildly disagree with some of your points, but for the most part I don't disagree with them.

But as I already said, I didn't get into the reasons why nor does that really change what I said. Paul Pierce outplayed Kobe Bryant in the 2008 NBA Finals. You can justify it with whatever reasoning and/or logic you want. Pierce still outplayed Kobe in that series.

There is a difference. Kobe was still the best player in that series, even as Pierce was outplaying him because he was guarded by Vlad Radmanovic and getting easy offense because of his HOF teammates.

[mogrovejo]

Pierce defended Kobe for the entire 2nd half in the pivotal 4th game, for example. Kobe was just playing centerfield off Rondo or just guarding Eddie House. It was pathetic. Pierce still outplayed him.

The Lakers were an offensive juggernaut mostly due to their ability to pass the ball and play as a team. It's almost hilarious to read what their fans say now compared to what they were saying before the series.

[mogrovejo]

There is a difference. Kobe was still the best player in that series, even as Pierce was outplaying him because he was guarded by Vlad Radmanovic and getting easy offense because of his HOF teammates.

A difference for what?

LeBron is easily outplaying Pierce in this series, even though Pierce has far better teammates and is the best player in the league - that's the differences I can think off.

[TD 21]

But that wasn't even the majority opinion until after the fact (Gasol trade, Lakers subsequent rise). Then and only then did people act like Bryant had been the best player in the game for years. But during those years, very few people referred to him as that. The general consensus was Duncan. It was said, written and ranked that way virtually everywhere. It wasn't said as much as it is today with these two pukes, but it was known by most.

[picc84]

A difference for what?

LeBron is easily outplaying Pierce in this series, even though Pierce has far better teammates and is the best player in the league - that's the differences I can think off.

Pierce is a worse player now than he was in 2008.

Would you say Rondo is outplaying Lebron so far? I would. Despite Lebron still being a far and away superior player. Shit, you could even argue Ray Allen is outplaying him. Why? Because of his team makeup.

[picc84]

Pierce defended Kobe for the entire 2nd half in the pivotal 4th game, for example. Kobe was just playing centerfield off Rondo or just guarding Eddie House. It was pathetic. Pierce still outplayed him.

The Lakers were an offensive juggernaut mostly due to their ability to pass the ball and play as a team. It's almost hilarious to read what their fans say now compared to what they were saying before the series.

Its hilarious to read Boston fans trying to act like Pierce outplaying Kobe wasn't a direct result of their respective team makeups.

[JamStone]

There is a difference. Kobe was still the best player in that series, even as Pierce was outplaying him because he was guarded by Vlad Radmanovic and getting easy offense because of his HOF teammates.

I simply disagree with that contention.

In crunch time of several of those games, the Lakers tried different defenders on Pierce, including Kobe and Odom. That didn't work very well either. And Pierce took on the challenge in several of those close games late in the game to defend Kobe.

For that Finals, in my opinion, Pierce outplayed Kobe and was the better player, for that Finals series only. I still thought Kobe was the better player in general, just not for the Finals.

[cobbler]

Do you respect Kobe? Kobe put a much more radical disappearance act in the 2008 Finals. At least LeBron still defended, rebounded and created shots for his teammates.

Disappearance act? Really? The entire Cetic defense was predicated on stopping Kobe and yet he put up almost identical numbers to Pierce who ended up being the MVP.

[picc84]

I simply disagree with that contention.

In crunch time of several of those games, the Lakers tried different defenders on Pierce, including Kobe and Odom. That didn't work very well either. And Pierce took on the challenge in several of those close games late in the game to defend Kobe.

For that Finals, in my opinion, Pierce outplayed Kobe and was the better player, for that Finals series only. I still thought Kobe was the better player in general, just not for the Finals.

Switch the two players on the respective teams.

What happens?

The fact he put up similar numbers to Pierce, actually better numbers purely statistically, despite the radical difference between the Lakers defense and the Celtics speaks volumes to who was purely the better basketball player, IMO.

[mogrovejo]

Disappearance act? Really? The entire Cetic defense was predicated on stopping Kobe and yet he put up almost identical numbers to Pierce who ended up being the MVP.

The entire Celtics defense is predicated on stopping LeBron and yet he's putting way better numbers than Pierce while also shutting him down defensively. He doesn't have a Gasol next to him and he's putting up a much bigger fight and hasn't lost the series.

What's so hard to understand about this?

[cobbler]

Kobe doesn't have statistical dominance outside of "points scored", and he only has 1 ring as a main guy..only 1 MVP as well..it doesn't exactly scream dominance..

The only constant with Kobe is that he has a cult following with his fans that talk the same shit, and the media that talks the same shit, playing with perception..Al-Quobe, the terrorist organization..

And yet you don't mention the accolades he gets across the board from the coaches, scouts, GM's, and players? You don't mention that to a man every player on the olympic team talked about how they learned to be a professional and were astonished at Kobe's work ethic. You always make light of those intangibles while tossing out your advanced stats BS. Those intangibles are every bit as important as PER.

And then when Kobe goes off, and your advanced stats don't cut it, it's about discrediting him with accolades for Pau etc. or your infantile rants about character flaws that have nothing to do with basketball.

The only one spewing the same shit over and over is you Harlem/Chris/Miami. I think everyone pretty much gets that you don't like the man. Yet I find it kind of odd how you can come to that conclusion as I would wager that you have never even talked to him much less met the guy.

And when the Lakers ring up #16 and Kobe gets the MVP.... that it really burns you will be pure icing!!!! :toast

[cobbler]

The entire Celtics defense is predicated on stopping LeBron and yet he's putting way better numbers than Pierce while also shutting him down defensively. He doesn't have a Gasol next to him and he's putting up a much bigger fight and hasn't lost the series.

What's so hard to understand about this?

I have no problem with LBJ's game. I just commeted that your disappearing comment was unfounded. If that is the case, then the MVP of the series also did a disappearing act.

And please... are you seriously comparing Gasol in the 2008 finals to anyone? He was terrible and you know it. He was used and abused. Funny how Gasol is the next coming of Christ when people are comparing Kobe with others and the biggest softest vagina on the planet otherwise.

[mogrovejo]

The disappearance act was the game 6.

Are you saying that any of LeBron's teammates are better than the '08 Gasol?

[RsxPiimp]

Paul Pierce scored 38 points in game 5 and seemed like the only Celtic who wasn't content with just stealing one of the middle three games in LA, while most of the rest of the Celtics played like it was a get-away game, happy to close the Finals at Boston...

Non factor. Boston lost. I dont see how this game benefits Paul's case considering his teammates saved his behind in other games in this series. If anything this just proves my point that Pierce and his MVP Final accolade is debatable but that's another argument.




Seems you choose to ignore how Pierce did outplay Kobe in games 1 and 2 (edit), and you go straight at game 4 and game 6 because that's your only conceivably decent argument..

I also conviniently ignored Kobe's 36 point performance in Game 3 and did'nt really went into details about Pierce's 2/14, 6 point performance in the same game. Its also a conceivable argument, dont you think?


Pierce was'nt even the best player in Game 1 and he also laid his own egg in Game 3 and was easily the 4th best player in Game 6. Allen, Posey and Eddie House were the reason Boston stole game 4 away from Lakers. So really, arguing over which of these players had a worst game is moot. I already conceded that none of each player has really "outplayed" the other. I was sticking with my script that the Celtics not specifically Pierce's battle with Kobe triumphed over the Lakers, so to say that one is better than the other is just one's way of being stubborn.






Pierce had a horrible shooting/scoring performance in game 3, which actually makes it pretty impressive that his stats were still comparable with Kobe's and he still shot better from the field for the series..
Pierce shot worse.





Now you attacked Pierce's performances in games 4 and 6. You also stated that you watched each minute of all the games. I find it hard to believe.

Game 4: Remember, this was the game of the Lakers' monumental collapse. They led in the first half by 24 points. They led at halftime by 18 points. The game started to turn around late in the second quarter. In the second half, the game had a 24 point turnaround. In that crucial second half that pretty much decided the game, here are Pierce's stats and Kobe's stats:

Pierce: 14 points on 4-for-7 shooting and 5 assists
Kobe: 14 points on 6-for-14 shooting and 4 assists

..

You're overblowing Pierce's impact in the monumental collapse. The bench particularly Eddie House and James Posey were the real difference. KG also made some crucial shots and Ray Allen added the finishing touch to close the game in the 4th quarter. Pierce only made 1 FG in the 4th.



Similar points and assists, but look at scoring efficiency ..
Why are penalizing Kobe for having a lower efficiency percentage? Considering the fact that Kobe always had poor shooting percentage in the Finals. Additionally, the defensive attention that Kobe received from Boston is not even up for a debate, in comparison to the defensive plan LA provided to Pierce. In hindsight, Kobe's average in that series is about right when acknowledging the elements involved.





Game 6: This was a blowout win for the Celtics so it's hard to evaluate game stats when it's like that. But I will say this. After one quarter, it was a 4 point game. At halftime, the Celtics led 58-35 and never looked back. The second quarter basically determined the outcome of that game and essentially won the Celtics their 2008 title. Here are the stats for Kobe and Pierce in that second quarter:..

The blowout win was more on Ray Allen's NBA Finals record of seven (7) 3 point field goals, KG finally having the best offensive game in the series 26 pts, 55% FG, and14 rebs and Rondo's 21 pts 8 asst game. James Poseys' 3/3 FG (11 pts) off the bench also crushed any hope Los Angeles had from ever getting back in the series.





Here are the stats for Kobe and Pierce in that second quarter:
Kobe: 3 points (all on technical free throws), 0-for-4 from the field, 0 assists, 2 turnovers:
Pierce: 8 points and 6 assists:..

Kobe had a better 1st quarter. Pierce caught up because of tacky fouls Boston received everytime he or any Boston player attacked the basket. He only had one FG and made 6 FT attempts.


I love how you slyly pointed out Kobe's three points were because of FT's while completely ignoring Pierce's 6 points came in the same manner though.
:lol




Pierce didn't guard Kobe the entire series and his teammates definitely helped. But there were a couple of crucial possessions (in I forget but one of the first two games, maybe both) where Pierce's defense really helped win the game. I'd have to go back and look at what I vaguely remember.

You name a "couple" of crucial possessions and somehow Pierce claims the credit for Kobe's less than stellar performance? Is this including the part where he obviously hacked Kobe's jersey and had the audacity to look at the ref for a foul?:lol or is it his undeniable hand checking and flop? . Now, should I also point out that Kobe's game winning steal and break away dunk in game 5?


Listen, here's my take and Im not going to go further with this because both sides are not going to come into an amicable conclusion, which is expected. But Paul and Kobe both did'nt had a great series altogether, so to say that one outplayed the other is just ones way of being stubborn for the sake of disagreeing.



Celtics won because they were the better team, not because Paul Pierce and his sub 40% shooting is any better than Kobe's standard low of 40%.

[JamStone]

Switch the two players on the respective teams.

What happens?

The fact he put up similar numbers to Pierce, actually better numbers purely statistically, despite the radical difference between the Lakers defense and the Celtics speaks volumes to who was purely the better basketball player, IMO.

Smh. I haven't been arguing against your reasons why Pierce was better. All I've said is that Pierce was better than Kobe in that series. Why don't you get that?

Pierce had a better team. That allowed him to play better than Kobe. That was a huge reason why he was a better player than Kobe in those Finals. What exactly are you arguing?

[mogrovejo]

LeBron also played the '08 Celtics. Gave them the toughest series, was a PJ Brown jump-shot away from eliminating them, while surrounded by Wally World, Pavlovic and Joe Smith.

Playing the Lakers in the finals was a piece of cake compared to playing the Cavs in the 2nd round.

[cobbler]

The disappearance act was the game 6.

Are you saying that any of LeBron's teammates are better than the '08 Gasol?

no... I'm saying all of them are

Gasol's play in 2008 finals was pathetic.


And anyone with any basketball sense at all knows Ray Allen was the true MVP of the Celts. It was given to Pierce because he was the celtic that had paid his dues over the years, the captain, and his wheelchair act. It's why i put very little credence in MVP's both regular season and playoffs. The only award that matters is winning the title. PERIOD!

[mogrovejo]

no... I'm saying all of them are

Gasol's play in 2008 finals was pathetic.

Yeps, everybody sees that Jamison is playing better than Gasol in the 08 finals.

It's a mistake to take these guys seriously...

[mogrovejo]

Pierce was'nt even the best player in Game 1 and he also laid his own egg in Game 3 and was easily the 4th best player in Game 6. Allen, Posey and Eddie House were the reason Boston stole game 4 away from Lakers.

I stopped here, this is so ridiculous. Pierce shutting down Kobe in the 2nd half was the main reason why the Celtics won that game. He ended the game with 20 points in 13 shots, 7 assists and 4 rebounds and this guy is saying that House was better than him because he hit a few corner 3s that Pierce created?

Anyway, I've already read some retard writing that Pierce only defended Kobe in the closing minutes of a game, so I guess everything is possible...

[DAF86]

So, is Kobe still the best player in his own team?

[Giuseppe]

So, is Kobe still the best player in his own team?

Fish, rampaging thru SLC certainly gets a mention.

[RsxPiimp]

I stopped here, this is so ridiculous. Pierce shutting down Kobe in the 2nd half was the main reason why the Celtics won that game. He ended the game with 20 points in 13 shots, 7 assists and 4 rebounds and this guy is saying that House wa...

You should really stop. There's nothing obejective that comes out of your brain when Kobe's involved. We've been through this before.

KG was the best player in game 1. He had 24 points, 13 rebs, 3 asts and and set the tone defensively.

[RsxPiimp]

no... I'm saying all of them are

gasol's play in 2008 finals was pathetic.


And anyone with any basketball sense at all knows ray allen was the true mvp of the celts. It was given to pierce because he was the celtic that had paid his dues over the years, the captain, and his wheelchair act. It's why i put very little credence in mvp's both regular season and playoffs. The only award that matters is winning the title. Period!

+1

[JamStone]

Non factor. Boston lost. I dont see how this game benefits Paul's case considering his teammates saved his behind in other games in this series. If anything this just proves my point that Pierce and his MVP Final accolade is debatable but that's another argument.

Are you serious that Pierce's game 5 doesn't matter because Boston lost? Are we now going to ignore Kobe's performances in games 1, 2, 4, and 6 because the Lakers lost? What kind of foolishness is that?

Pierce wasn't perfect. And he did have help from teammates. Let's get this out of the way from the start. I am not one who's arguing that he was absolutely the Finals MVP. I can understand an argument for Ray Allen. My discussion with you centers solely on the notion that Pierce outplayed Kobe, not whether he deserved the Finals MVP over any of his other teammates. That's an argument you are having with someone else.




Pierce was'nt even the best player in Game 1 and he also laid his own egg in Game 3 and was easily the 4th best player in Game 6. Allen, Posey and Eddie House were the reason Boston stole game 4 away from Lakers. So really, arguing over which of these players had a worst game is moot. I already conceded that none of each player has really "outplayed" the other. I was sticking with my script that the Celtics not specifically Pierce's battle with Kobe triumphed over the Lakers, so to say that one is better than the other is just one's way of being stubborn.

Pierce was the best Celtics player in game 1. If you look only at the boxscore, you might argue that KG was better. But KG also crapped his pants in the 4th quarter. Up 4 points getting into crunchtime, KG misses two shots and the Lakers score at the other end. Boston calls timeout, Pierce gets back in the game and immediately scores 4 quick points and calms his team down. Pierce also took on Kobe at the defensive end and did a very good job. KG went 1-for-6 in the fourth quarter of game. Overall game statistics are better than Pierce's, but Pierce was the best player in game 1.

And for game 6, all you're doing is looking at boxscores. For you to even attempt to argue Eddie House was a more important player than Pierce is outrageous and ridiculous and you should just stopped arguing right there and then. That's tantamount to saying Sasha Vujacic was more important to the Lakers than Kobe in their game 3 win. It's simply ridiculous.




Pierce shot worse.

Pierce FG% for 2008 NBA Finals: 43.2%
Kobe FG% for 2008 NBA Finals: 40.5%




You're overblowing Pierce's impact in the monumental collapse. The bench particularly Eddie House and James Posey were the real difference. KG also made some crucial shots and Ray Allen added the finishing touch to close the game in the 4th quarter. Pierce only made 1 FG in the 4th.

Again, you're making the wrong argument. I'm arguing Pierce v. Kobe, not Pierce v. House v. KG. v. Allen. Keep that with the discussion you're having with whoever else. That's not what we're arguing.

Pierce outplayed Kobe in the second half of game 4, when it mattered, when Kobe's team was up and Pierce's team was fighting back from a 20+ point deficit.




Why are penalizing Kobe for having a lower efficiency percentage? Considering the fact that Kobe always had poor shooting percentage in the Finals. Additionally, the defensive attention that Kobe received from Boston is not even up for a debate, in comparison to the defensive plan LA provided to Pierce. In hindsight, Kobe's average in that series is about right when acknowledging the elements involved.

I'm penalizing Kobe for having a lower efficiency percentage because that's something you evaluate when you compare player performances. If player A scores 20 points on 12 shots and player B scores 20 points on 20 shots, player A had a better scoring performance. Doesn't matter what the reasons are for Kobe shooting a lower percentage. Kobe didn't have a problem shooting good percentages in games 2 and 3 against that same Boston defense. So why not criticize his FG% in the other four games? Kobe shot less than 40% from the field in four of those games in the 2008 Finals. In three of them, he shot less than 35% from the field. It is something you can criticize a player for. If a team is playing that great a defense against you, don't shoot 20 FGA a game. Shooting that low and still putting up attempts instead of trying to find creative ways to get teammates involved is absolutely a criticism Kobe should take.




The blowout win was more on Ray Allen's NBA Finals record of seven (7) 3 point field goals, KG finally having the best offensive game in the series 26 pts, 55% FG, and14 rebs and Rondo's 21 pts 8 asst game. James Poseys' 3/3 FG (11 pts) off the bench also crushed any hope Los Angeles had from ever getting back in the series.

This proves you're just looking at boxscore numbers. Ray Allen made one three-pointer in the first half. The Celtics led the Lakers at halftime of game 6 by a score of 60-35. 25 point lead. Ray Allen made 6 of those 7 3-pointers when the lead was 25 points or greater. You're absurd to think the Celtics won game 6 because of Ray Allen hitting jumpers when the Celts were up by 30. Are you serious?

Rajon Rondo had 4 points and 2 assists in the first half of game 6. He also stat padded in the blowout.

KG had a really nice first half and was a big reason for the game 6 win. And Posey hit some big shots. But again, you simply looked at the boxscore without getting context of the game stats. It's pretty apparent.




Kobe had a better 1st quarter. Pierce caught up because of tacky fouls Boston received everytime he or any Boston player attacked the basket. He only had one FG and made 6 FT attempts.

I love how you slyly pointed out Kobe's three points were because of FT's while completely ignoring Pierce's 6 points came in the same manner though.
:lol

Kobe did have a better 1st quarter. The 1st quarter didn't determine the outcome of game 6. The second quarter where the Celtics outscored the Lakers 34-15 did. That's where Pierce outplayed Kobe. That's where the game was won.

I apologize for not including Pierce's FG/FGA. I was rushing out of work to go home and just wanted to hit post. Pierce went 1-for-3 from the field and yes got most of his points on free throws in that second quarter. And Pierce drew fouls to get his free throws. Kobe got his free throws from three illegal defense calls on Boston. Very different. Still was better than Kobe.

Kobe: 3 points, 0-for-4 from the field, 0 assists
Pierce: 8 points, 1-for-3 from the field, 6 assists

You tell me who outplayed whom in that game determining quarter.




You name a "couple" of crucial possessions and somehow Pierce claims the credit for Kobe's less than stellar performance? Is this including the part where he obviously hacked Kobe's jersey and had the audacity to look at the ref for a foul?:lol or is it his undeniable hand checking and flop? . Now, should I also point out that Kobe's game winning steal and break away dunk in game 5?

Didn't claim Pierce was perfect on defense, but he did do a good job when he took on the challenge to guard Kobe late in a couple of those games. You can point out whatever you want to point out. A couple plays here and there that favor Kobe don't change the fact that over the course of the entire series, Pierce was the better player.



Listen, here's my take and Im not going to go further with this because both sides are not going to come into an amicable conclusion, which is expected. But Paul and Kobe both did'nt had a great series altogether, so to say that one outplayed the other is just ones way of being stubborn for the sake of disagreeing.

Having actually watched the 2008 NBA Finals unlike you just looking at the boxscores of each of those games, I can confidently and assuredly say Pierce outplayed Kobe for the 2008 NBA Finals.




Celtics won because they were the better team, not because Paul Pierce and his sub 40% shooting is any better than Kobe's standard low of 40%.

As I stated earlier, Pierce shot 43.2% from the field for the 2008 Finals. Kobe shot 40.2% from the field for those same Finals. You looked at the wrong stats page, bud. Or you looked at Pierce's 39.3% THREE POINT percentage.

[mogrovejo]

You should really stop.

KG was the best player in game 1. He had 24 points, 13 rebs, 3 asts and and set the tone defensively.

What the heck does that have to do with game 4? Are you losing it?

[JamStone]

Just caught this. I don't know how much this will change things for you, but at least I can identify part of the problem. You did poor math when you looked up the 2008 NBA Finals stats.


In 6 games here were their averages


Paul Pierce

21.83 PPG
43% FG (38/88)
29% 3FG(11/37) Pierce shot 11/28 from 3PT range, 39%
4.6 RPG 4.5
6.8 APG 6.3
1.1 SPG

Kobe Bryant

24.00 PPG 25.7 PPG
44% FG (53/121) 131 FGA, not 121... 40.5% FG
48% 3FG (13/27) Kobe was 9/28 from 3PT range, 32.1%
4.8 RPG 4.7
4.0 APG 5.0
2.7 SPG




I just cant see how you can pull the Paul Pierce "outplayed" Kobe card on this one.

Actually helps Kobe in a couple areas but significantly changes the shooting percentages in favor of Pierce.

You really should double check your work if you're doing the math yourself. I thought you just went to nba.com, which would have been significantly easier:

http://www.nba.com/celtics/stats/2007/nba_finals_stats.html
http://www.nba.com/lakers/stats/2007/nba_finals_stats.html

[RsxPiimp]

Pierce was the best Celtics player in game 1.?.

Why, because he faked an injury and shot 2 3 pointer in the 3rd quarter? :lol And you claim like you've watched the series. Filipino, please.



If you look only at the boxscore, you might argue that KG was better. But KG also crapped his pants in the 4th quarter.?.
Boxscore or not, KG set the tone defensively. He was the better player IMO. He took Gasol and Odom out of their game completely. The buckets he made were just cherry on top. I never bought into Pierces' weak Willid Reed act, which obviously captivated you.


[/
Up 4 points getting into crunchtime, KG misses two shots and the Lakers score at the other end.
How about his put back dunk over Gasol in the 4th which sealed the game with under 2 minutes left in the game that puts the Celtics up by 8?


Seriously what we're both doing here is finding loopholes to prove a point.


Stop stretching Jamstone, you aint Reed Richards.





And for game 6, all you're doing is looking at boxscores. For you to even attempt to argue Eddie House was a more important player than Pierce is outrageous and ridiculous and you should just stopped arguing right there and then. That's tantamount to saying Sasha Vujacic was more important to the Lakers than Kobe in their game 3 win. It's simply ridiculous..

You're really going to call me out on analyzing the game on boxscores when you clearly have no recollection of how the game exactly went down without looking at the same/similar source? How hypocritical is that?


I never implied Eddie House was a more important player than Pierce, wow. I mean I know you dug yourself a hole by putting your foot in this debate and is slowly trying to sneak away from it by completely fabricating statements I never said, but thats just really low on your part. Read and try again chief.






Pierce FG% for 2008 NBA Finals: 43.2%
Kobe FG% for 2008 NBA Finals: 40.5%



Pierce
38/88= 43% FG
11/37= 29% 3FG

Kobe

53/121=44% FG
13/27=48% 3FG



Again, you're making the wrong argument. I'm arguing Pierce v. Kobe, not Pierce v. House v. KG. v. Allen.
Actually you are. Im arguing Pierce did not have a better series because of all the factors involved. After all, there were 5 players for each team on the court. Never saw this as a 1 on 1 battle, thats why I never bought what your selling.


Also, mind you, I believe you agreed with that reasoning, just with another poster.

Pierce had a better team. That allowed him to play better than Kobe. That was a huge reason why he was a better player than Kobe in those Finals. What exactly are you arguing?

So, why exactly are you arguing?





Pierce outplayed Kobe in the second half of game 4, when it mattered, when Kobe's team was up and Pierce's team was fighting back from a 20+ point deficit..


You just said Pierce's team fought back. How did you come with this idea that Pierce outplayed Kobe?:lol





I'm penalizing Kobe for having a lower efficiency percentage because that's something you evaluate when you compare player performances...

So, you're going to penalize him for shooting 43% in the series when he shot worst in previous years.





Kobe didn't have a problem shooting good percentages in games 2 and 3 against that same Boston defense. So why not criticize his FG% in the other four games?...

Because Kobe is a streaky shooter? Always has been? And his numbers against Boston has never been good to begin with that year? That never crossed your mind, im baffled. A Kobe "fan" should know that by default.



Kobe shot less than 40% from the field in four of those games in the 2008 Finals. In three of them, he shot less than 35% from the field. It is something you can criticize a player for. If a team is playing that great a defense against you, don't shoot 20 FGA a game. Shooting that low and still putting up attempts instead of trying to find creative ways to get teammates involved is absolutely a criticism Kobe should take. ?...

You already admitted the fact that his teammates did'nt show up and has stated numerous times in this board that Gasol was a pussy pre 2009 NBA Finals. So, now since it comfortably favors your argument, Kobe should find creative ways to get his teammates involved. Your posts just dont add up at all.






This proves you're just looking at boxscore numbers. Ray Allen made one three-pointer in the first half. The Celtics led the Lakers at halftime of game 6 by a score of 60-35. 25 point lead. Ray Allen made 6 of those 7 3-pointers when the lead was 25 points or greater. You're absurd to think the Celtics won game 6 because of Ray Allen hitting jumpers when the Celts were up by 30. Are you serious??...

Im serious that Garnett, Rondo, Allen were far more better players than Pierce in Game 6. Why you insist Pierce was the better player is seriously putting a big question mark on your dubious claim that you saw the game. Youtube clips included.


The night belonged to Garnett, Allen and even James Posey and P.J. Brown.

A night they'll never forget in Green Land might have belonged most to Rajon Rondo.





Rondo had 4 points and 2 assists in the first half of game 6. He also stat padded in the blowout.

And Pierce did'nt? Pierce made only 2 FG's in the first half, the rest of his points were (5) FT's. You dont think Pierce had his share of stat padding in the second half?


"Rondo was the star," Lakers coach Phil Jackson told us after the Celtics Game 6.






KG had a really nice first half and was a big reason for the game 6 win. And Posey hit some big shots. But again, you simply looked at the boxscore without getting context of the game stats. It's pretty apparent..

KG and Posey were the reason the Lakers never recovered in the 1st half. Why are you turning your head and looking at the other way (Pierce).






Kobe did have a better 1st quarter. The 1st quarter didn't determine the outcome of game 6. The second quarter where the Celtics outscored the Lakers 34-15 did. That's where Pierce outplayed Kobe. That's where the game was won.
..

Nope. Celtics won the game in the 4th. Game was tied up until the third quarter.



I apologize for not including Pierce's FG/FGA. I was rushing out of work to go home and just wanted to hit post. Pierce went 1-for-3 from the field and yes got most of his points on free throws in that second quarter. Still was better than Kobe.
..

Disagree. Redundant. Semantics.




A couple plays here and there that favor Kobe don't change the fact that over the course of the entire series, Pierce was the better player...

Ha! Of course.





Having actually watched the 2008 NBA Finals unlike you just looking at the boxscores of each of those games, I can confidently and assuredly say Pierce outplayed Kobe for the 2008 NBA Finals....

Lets just put it this way. Stop your BS. You did'nt watch each and everygame to give a honest opinion on this matter.





As I stated earlier, Pierce shot 43.2% from the field for the 2008 Finals. Kobe shot 40.2% from the field for those same Finals. You looked at the wrong stats page, bud. Or you looke at Pierce's 39.3% THREE POINT percentage.



21.83 PPG
43% FG (38/88)
29% 3FG(11/37)
4.6 RPG
6.8 APG
1.1 SPG

Kobe Bryant

24.00 PPG
44% FG (53/121)
48% 3FG (13/27)
4.8 RPG
4.0 APG
2.7 SPG


I did'nt. You did.

[JamStone]

Your math is wrong.

Click the links I provided above.

[RsxPiimp]

Just caught this. I don't know how much this will change things for you, but at least I can identify part of the problem. You did poor math when you looked up the 2008 NBA Finals stats.



Actually helps Kobe in a couple areas but significantly changes the shooting percentages in favor of Pierce.

You really should double check your work if you're doing the math yourself. I thought you just went to nba.com, which would have been significantly easier:

http://www.nba.com/celtics/stats/2007/nba_finals_stats.html
http://www.nba.com/lakers/stats/2007/nba_finals_stats.html

I got my stats from a well known Laker poster at RealGM. Im glad you made the corrections though. Helped my case even more. Glad to know Kobe scored more and Pierce averaged slightly less assists per game.

[JamStone]

Lol I won't even get into all of that now that you realized what you based parts of your argument on was your own bad math, but I have to, absolutely have to address this comment:



Nope. Celtics won the game in the 4th. Game was tied up until the third quarter.

Since when is a 25 point halftime deficit comparable to being "tied up until the third?????"

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280617002

[JamStone]

I got my stats from a well known Laker poster at RealGM. Im glad you made the corrections though. Helped my case even more. Glad to know Kobe scored more and Pierce averaged slightly less assists per game.

Pierce goes from a 29% three point shooter to a 39% three point shooter, and Kobe goes from a 44% field goal shooter and a 48 three point shooter to a 40% field goal shooter and 32% three point shooter and you're going to argue it helps your case even more?

Are you deranged?

[RsxPiimp]

Lol I won't even get into all of that now that you realized what you based parts of your argument on was your own bad math, but I have to, absolutely have to address this comment:



Since when is a 25 point halftime deficit comparable to being "tied up until the third?????"

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280617002

Its late. I was referring to Game 1 in that post.

[RsxPiimp]

Pierce goes from a 29% three point shooter to a 39% three point shooter, and Kobe goes from a 44% field goal shooter and a 48 three point shooter to a 40% field goal shooter and 32% three point shooter and you're going to argue it helps your case even more?

Are you deranged?

Well since were arguing over the tiniest detail of a decided game, a bump in scoring average and assist total and decreasing Pierce's assist per game helped dont you think?

[JamStone]

Honestly? Seriously?

The differences in assists and scoring don't compare to the significant differences in those mistakes of the shooting percentages you posted. The mistakes in shooting percentage were very significant.

[RsxPiimp]

Significant? It was a difference of 0.040 and 0.160 in a low volume setting. It was misrepresented by more or less 10 shots spread on a 6 game series. Its not that critical, considering there are other issues you have'nt answered at this point. I already cknowledged the link you gave me. No point pushing the same issue again.

[Ghazi]

speaking of game recognizes game, didn't Magic Johnson say Lebron would be the greatest player in the league for the next 15 years or so?... just sayin.

:lol 35 YO Lebron with marginal jumper and no post game.

but still...

[milkshakeballa]

Now, my question is this... when you start deciding who you want to round off your squad, do you start asking niggas their PER? Huh?


:rollin:rollin:rollin

"Ay nigga! you wanna run with me?"

"Ye dog il run"

"iight how many win shares you got tho?"

":wtf:wtf:wtf"

"come on nigga wat r your defensive metrics brah?"