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Winehole23
05-12-2010, 01:46 PM
The Case for Economic Doom and Gloom (http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/the-case-economic-doom-and-gloom)

Why we’re not out of trouble yet--not even close.

John B. Judis (http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/the-case-economic-doom-and-gloom#)

May 11, 2010 | 3:37 pm


The American economy added 290,000 jobs (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm) in April, the biggest monthly increase in four years. Clearly, a recovery has taken hold. But how strong and buoyant will it be? Will we eventually get back to growth rates above 4 percent and to an unemployment rate of less than 5 percent? Or will this recovery sputter like the last one that began in 2002?


The strongest case for gloom that I’ve read has been made by UCLA economic historian Robert Brenner in a new introduction (http://escholarship.org/uc/item/0sg0782h) that he wrote to the Spanish edition of his 2006 book, The Economics of Global Turbulence. New Republic readers will detect a similarity between Brenner’s views and my own, but his are grounded in a far greater knowledge of economic history than mine. His pessimism also outpaces mine.


Brenner’s analysis of the current downturn can be boiled down to a fairly simple point: that the underlying cause of the current downturn lies in the “real” economy of private goods and service production rather than in the financial sector, and that the current remedies—from government spending and tax cuts to financial regulation—will not lead to the kind of robust growth and employment that the United States enjoyed after World War II and fleetingly in the late 1990s. These remedies won’t succeed because they won’t get at what has caused the slowdown in the real economy: global overcapacity in tradeable goods production.


Global overcapacity means that the world’s industries are capable of producing far more steel, shoes, cell phones, computer chips, and automobiles (among other things) than the world’s consumers are able and willing to consume. Companies can still sell their goods but at prices that undercut their rate of profit. In the nineteenth century, the redundant and less productive firms would have folded, and as wages fell, and profit rates went back up, the economy would start to revive. But that no longer happens. Firms have become too big and powerful to fail; and the citizens of democratic nations will justifiably no longer tolerate unemployment above 20 percent. Instead, the average rate of profit falls, private and public debt rises, and the danger of a large crash looms.


Brenner traces this problem of global overcapacity to the early 1970s when the countries decimated by World War II had rebuilt their industrial base and were capable of competing equally with the United States, and when newly industrializing countries in Asia and Latin America were beginning their ascent. At that point, global overcapacity manifested itself in declining rates of profit. In the United States, for instance, average profit rates in manufacturing fell from 24.5 percent in the 1960s to 13.4 percent in the 1970s and 11.8 percent in the 1980s. As profit rates declined, firms were less inclined to invest and expand, leading to a decline in overall growth in the economy and to higher average unemployment over a decade.
The more immediate causes of the current downturn, he suggests, go back to the vagaries of the real economy in the 1990s. The revival of American manufacturing during that period was cut short by what Brenner calls “the reverse Plaza accord.” (See my article, “Dollar Foolish,” (http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/dollar-foolish) in TNR, December 9, 1996.) The U.S. agreed to drive down the value of the yen and mark and drive up the value of the dollar to protect Japan in particular from a severe recession. But the effect was to price American goods out of markets in Asia and to widen the American trade deficit.


In the past, this might have led to a downturn, but there were special circumstances that sustained the Clinton era boom into the late ’90s. In order to hold down the value of the dollar relative to their own currencies, Asian nations sent the dollars they accumulated from their trade surpluses back to the U.S. to buy Treasuries, stocks and bonds, and real estate. The accumulation of dollars helped fuel a speculative frenzy in information technology stocks, which created a “wealth effect” of its own that buoyed consumption and investment. Brenner calls it “asset price Keynesian.” Paul Volcker summed up the situation thusly: “The fate of the world economy is now totally dependent on the growth of the U.S. economy, which is dependent on the stock market, whose growth is dependent upon about 50 stocks, half of which have never reported any earnings.”



Of course, the dot-com bubble burst in 2001—inconveniently on the same day that Ruy Teixeira and I were trying to auction our proposed book, The Emerging Democratic Majority. Overcapacity had spread to information technology. (See Noam Scheiber, “Wretched Excess,” (http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/wretched-excess) in TNR, December 3, 2001.) A recession had taken hold. A year later, the economy began to recover, but the tradeable goods sector remained stagnant. In 2005, investment by non-financial corporations was still almost 5 percent below what it had been in 2000. Net borrowing by non-financial corporations was nugatory. And the trade deficit continued to rise.


How then was recovery possible at all? What happened was that the fundamentals behind the dot-com boom and bubble were replicated in the housing and commercial real estate markets. The rush of foreign dollars into the U.S. from the trade deficit helped the Federal Reserve keep interest rates near zero. With the interest rates plummeting, home sales rose. And as sales rose, the price of homes rose. Homeowners used their newfound home equity to purchase cars and other homes. Construction boomed, even while manufacturing floundered. When home prices threatened to discourage new purchases, banks and brokers, with encouragement from the Fed, offered new subprime mortgage deals. When the banks and brokers became worried about risk from these mortgages, they invented elaborate financial instruments to cushion and spread the risk. And when housing prices finally stalled, the whole Ponzi scheme collapsed, and the recession, the most severe since the 1930s, commenced.


Did the housing bubble cause the recession? Yes, in the same sense that a patient suffering from lung cancer finally dies as a result of pneumonia. The bursting of the bubble precipitated the recession, but the underlying condition, which made possible the financial chicanery of the last 15 years, was the global overcapacity in tradeable goods. With American firms no longer eagerly seeking funds for expansion, the banks and shadow banks had to look elsewhere for profitable outlets. And with the economy that produces tradeable goods not producing new jobs, a government that took its responsibility for maintaining employment had to look elsewhere to stimulate demand and growth. Ergo, two bubbles, and two recessions.

So what now? There are good reasons to re-regulate finance—among them, to prevent fraud and to create transparency—but financial reform will not necessarily create an incentive for banks to loan money to firms that want to invest and expand. The problem right now is primarily that firms are fearful that they won’t make a sufficient rate of return on their investments, and are holding back. There is also good reason to make expenditures for infrastructure that will create jobs and make American industry more productive. But, Brenner argues, Keynesian spending is at best a palliative that temporarily creates jobs and that, over the long run, exacerbates the problem of excess capacity.


This is a crucial point and I want to quote Brenner on it. He says that Keynesian
additions of purchasing power were especially critical in reversing the severe cyclical downturns of 1974-5, 1979-1982, and the early 1990s, which were far more serious than any during the first postwar quarter century and would likely have led to profound economic dislocations in the absence of the large increases in government and private indebtedness that took place in their wake. Nevertheless, the ever increasing borrowing that sustained aggregate demand also led to an ever greater build-up of debt, which, over time, left firms and households less responsive to new rounds of stimulus and rendered the economy ever more vulnerable to shocks. Even more debilitating, it slowed the shakeout of high-cost low profit means of production required to eliminate overcapacity in the world system as a whole and in that way prevented profitability from making a recovery.Brenner is not saying that the U.S. economy won’t “recover” from this or future recessions. What he is saying is that we and the rest of global capitalism will continue on the gradual downward slope that began in the 1970s. We will not be able to recreate the Golden Age of capitalism that lasted from 1945 to 1970 simply by applying the right mixture of spending, subsidies, re-regulation, and international negotiation. Instead, the world economy, and the U.S. economy, will resemble the post-bubble Japan of the 1990s—with its “L-shaped” recovery writ large.


Brenner doesn’t discuss the political repercussions, but they are pretty clear: Continued economic uncertainty and instability will make for political instability. This has already happened in Japan, and appears to be spreading to Europe, where recent elections in Germany and Great Britain have created uneasy governing coalitions. In the United States, the Republicans are likely to take back at least the House of Representatives in November, but that won’t issue in a new era of Republicanism any more than Obama’s victory now appears to have created a long-lasting Roosevelt-type Democratic majority. Unless a solution is at hand, we’re in for an era of what political scientist W. D. Burnham called “unstable equilibrium.”


And by Brenner’s logic, there is no lasting solution to global overcapacity and falling rates of profit short of the kind of depression that shook the world in the 1930s. This depression, it should be recalled, had some pretty terrible political repercussions of its own. It not only threw millions out of work, but also fed the growth of fascism and Nazism and contributed, if not led directly, to World War II. The combination of the Depression and World War II created the conditions for the Golden Age of capitalism that occurred from 1945 to 1970.


Brenner himself is certainly not advocating depression and war. He doesn’t offer solutions. He is trying to explain the dilemma that global capitalism faces. I would certainly hope that Brenner is wrong. I like to think the countries of the world could find a way out of this mess through national and global planning and cooperation. But I don’t presently see how.

John B. Judis is a senior editor of The New Republic and a visiting scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

EVAY
05-12-2010, 02:44 PM
Thanks very mcuh for posting this, WH. It is a thoughtful piece, and one that makes a lot of sense.

One of the things that makes the most sense is that the underlying issues that led to the current recession/depression are not of political making. This is truly one of the things that I think it is difficult for folks in either/both parties to wrap their heads around.

The underlying issues here have to do with the responses to the global dislocations (if I read him correctly) and genuine attempts to respond to those that occurred in and since the 70's.

Hence it is not a Republican Problem.

Nor, is it a Democratic Problem.

And unless we stop blaming Barney Frank on one hand and George Bush on the other, we are not going to make sustainable progress.

EVAY
05-12-2010, 02:44 PM
The thing is not going to solved quickly or easily by either Republican or Democratic agendas.

EVAY
05-12-2010, 02:46 PM
This is going to be a muddle fcor a very long time. I hope that at some point we can start to focus on moving ahead (albeit slowly), rathr than simply screaming epithets at each other and trying to make sure that one political agenda vs. another is the one 'on top'.

Winehole23
05-12-2010, 02:58 PM
And by Brenner’s logic, there is no lasting solution to global overcapacity and falling rates of profit short of the kind of depression that shook the world in the 1930s.For me this was a kernel to hang onto against all those who claim we had no choice but follow the path we're on now.

Winehole23
05-12-2010, 03:02 PM
Thanks very mcuh for posting this, WH. It is a thoughtful piece, and one that makes a lot of sense.

One of the things that makes the most sense is that the underlying issues that led to the current recession/depression are not of political making. This is truly one of the things that I think it is difficult for folks in either/both parties to wrap their heads around.

The underlying issues here have to do with the responses to the global dislocations (if I read him correctly) and genuine attempts to respond to those that occurred in and since the 70's.

Hence it is not a Republican Problem.

Nor, is it a Democratic Problem.

And unless we stop blaming Barney Frank on one hand and George Bush on the other, we are not going to make sustainable progress.Yep. It took us 30-40 years to get here. We can't untangle it overnight. Unfortunately the solution requires two unpalatable grinches: raising taxes and cutting spending.

Wild Cobra
05-12-2010, 10:29 PM
I agree that our form of capitalism will fail with the government policies in place. We cannot continue to tax production when we can get cheaper production from outsourcing. We cannot continue to have social programs for people who are able-bodied and do not attempt to work. As long as our tax system id against the wolves and the sheep, voting on what's for dinner, we are doomed. We have too many voters who don't care if taxes are raised, because they aren't tax payers.

I have stated for a long time we are on a path to failure. I say we repeal the part of the amendment about poll taxes. Only tax payers should vote. Those who have a net pay to the government. Not those who receive. If not that, implement a proper consumption tax and do away with income tax.

Until we stop taxing production, capitalism is doomed in a global market. And yes, it's a bad system... except all the others out there are worse.

ElNono
05-12-2010, 11:26 PM
I agree that our form of capitalism will fail with the government policies in place. We cannot continue to tax production when we can get cheaper production from outsourcing. We cannot continue to have social programs for people who are able-bodied and do not attempt to work. As long as our tax system id against the wolves and the sheep, voting on what's for dinner, we are doomed. We have too many voters who don't care if taxes are raised, because they aren't tax payers.

I have stated for a long time we are on a path to failure. I say we repeal the part of the amendment about poll taxes. Only tax payers should vote. Those who have a net pay to the government. Not those who receive. If not that, implement a proper consumption tax and do away with income tax.

Until we stop taxing production, capitalism is doomed in a global market. And yes, it's a bad system... except all the others out there are worse.

You can remove ALL taxes on certain industries and you would still be unable to compete globally. There's much more than taxing involved in the outsourcing problem, including standards of living, market distortions created by patents and copyrights, the cost of justice, etc etc etc.

Wild Cobra
05-12-2010, 11:53 PM
You can remove ALL taxes on certain industries and you would still be unable to compete globally.
No shit Sherlock.

Did I ever imply I was attempting to help all industries?

There's much more than taxing involved in the outsourcing problem, including standards of living, market distortions created by patents and copyrights, the cost of justice, etc etc etc.
As for the standard of living, labor is only a large factor when you are talking about items that are under a certain shipping cost factor. The smaller and more expensive the item, the more labor differences are part of the equation.

Are you attempting to say that changing our tax structure to a consumption based system, won't help any of our industries? If so, you would be foolishly wrong.

ElNono
05-13-2010, 12:04 AM
No shit Sherlock.

Did I ever imply I was attempting to help all industries?

As for the standard of living, labor is only a large factor when you are talking about items that are under a certain shipping cost factor. The smaller and more expensive the item, the more labor differences are part of the equation.

Are you attempting to say that changing our tax structure to a consumption based system, won't help any of our industries? If so, you would be foolishly wrong.

Tell me how you solve the fact that people overseas get paid $5 a day for 10+ hours of work, then we can have a conversation. Until then, all your taxation rhetoric is just a distraction from the central issue.

Wild Cobra
05-13-2010, 10:08 AM
Tell me how you solve the fact that people overseas get paid $5 a day for 10+ hours of work, then we can have a conversation. Until then, all your taxation rhetoric is just a distraction from the central issue.
I've explained it before. If you are too dense to understand, then why continue? I'll try one more time.

When overseas labor plus shipping to the USA is cheaper than USA labor, then the outsourcing wins. Outsourcing wins more often with out current tax structure because of adding tax to production that isn't included in outsourced products. When you remove productivity taxes, then the USA is competitive again in cases where the shipping costs plus cheaper labor is close or more expensive than the labor costs of USA made goods.

Simple concept. Please don't ask me to explain it again. We have been over this before.

Winehole23
05-13-2010, 11:42 AM
I think El Nono gets the concept. He seems to be saying that equalizing taxes doesn't necessarily make us more competitive when the disparity in labor cost is very great.

When the competition pays their help just a few dollars for a whole day's work, tweaking the taxes doesn't get us across the finish line. It may not even get us halfway there.

DarrinS
05-13-2010, 12:05 PM
But, I thought the stimulus fixed everything.

boutons_deux
05-13-2010, 12:45 PM
"I thought the stimulus fixed everything"

wrong, as always. A palliative, not a cure.

ElNono
05-13-2010, 01:40 PM
I've explained it before. If you are too dense to understand, then why continue? I'll try one more time.

When overseas labor plus shipping to the USA is cheaper than USA labor, then the outsourcing wins.

For the vast majority of manufacturing business, outsourcing wins even if you remove the tax burden from the local company. But you know that, you're just bitching and moaning about taxes, which is really a strawman in the outsourcing dilemma.

Wild Cobra
05-13-2010, 01:43 PM
I think El Nono gets the concept. He seems to be saying that equalizing taxes doesn't necessarily make us more competitive when the disparity in labor cost is very great.

When the competition pays their help just a few dollars for a whole day's work, tweaking the taxes doesn't get us across the finish line. It may not even get us halfway there.
I'm surprised that this was over your head, but it obviously was. Maybe you should read my last post again...

Wild Cobra
05-13-2010, 01:44 PM
For the vast majority of manufacturing business, outsourcing wins even if you remove the tax burden from the local company. But you know that, you're just bitching and moaning about taxes, which is really a strawman in the outsourcing dilemma.
That's right. Continue to ignore shipping costs.

ElNono
05-13-2010, 01:45 PM
That's right. Continue to ignore shipping costs.

I do include them as part of 'outsourcing'. Do you have conclusive evidence to the contrary?

ElNono
05-13-2010, 01:49 PM
And BTW, countries like China are not tax-free (http://www.worldwide-tax.com/china/china_tax.asp) either. It's their economic policy of keeping the value of their currency arbitrarily low what makes wages incredibly cheap.

SnakeBoy
05-13-2010, 03:29 PM
When the competition pays their help just a few dollars for a whole day's work, tweaking the taxes doesn't get us across the finish line. It may not even get us halfway there.

I know quite a few former manufacturers and all of them say they only needed between 10-20% more for their goods to stay competitive. So reducing their tax burden would have helped but you're right that isn't all of it. I don't think it's all about cheap labor though since that has always been the case. One of the things never mentioned that has been a huge burden on US businesses has been the real estate bubble. Rent on commercial space is as much or more of a burden for most small businesses as labor. I know it would have been worth it to keep my retail shop open if rent had been 1/2 of what is was ($6k/month for 2000 sq/ft).

admiralsnackbar
05-13-2010, 03:48 PM
I think El Nono gets the concept. He seems to be saying that equalizing taxes doesn't necessarily make us more competitive when the disparity in labor cost is very great.

When the competition pays their help just a few dollars for a whole day's work, tweaking the taxes doesn't get us across the finish line. It may not even get us halfway there.

Agree completely as far as the present is concerned, but if transportation costs start trending upwards as I expect they will (based on exponentially rising global demand) it will offset savings on labor and companies will probably backtrack and begin manufacturing closer to their markets.

At that point, taxes will probably be the final arbiter of whether manufacturing moves back to MX or the US.

ElNono
05-13-2010, 04:13 PM
I actually think that what everyone is waiting for is for the bottom to come out when it comes to the Chinese currency. Sooner or later the pressure will be too big and they won't be able to keep the currency so artificially low. The question is, can we afford to wait? Or do we play the same game of manipulation of the market to even the playing field?

ElNono
05-13-2010, 05:05 PM
Meanwhile...

EClrSJqy92k

EVAY
05-14-2010, 05:08 PM
Having read all of the posts herein, It occurs to me that much of the argument is about the manufacturing base of the global economy, and manufacturing is not really the engine of the U.S. economy anymore is it?

I mean, really, doesn't the article itself make the case that events since the 70's on a global basis have more to do with the current economic dislocations than shipping or labor costs?

And isn't the U.S. economy based much more on information and knowledge-based technology than on manufacturing? Didn't we kind of recognize that in the NAFTA treaty?

I'm willing to accept that I am wrong on this, but I honestly thought that the U.S. has not been the global manufacturer of choice for quite some time now, and never will be again, and that most folks outside of Pat Buchanan seem to have accepted that and moved on. Specifically, the U.S. has moved on to a knowledge-based trade mechanism.

No?

Winehole23
05-15-2010, 05:41 AM
More simply, WTF does the USA make, that the rest of the world wants to buy?

Winehole23
05-15-2010, 05:42 AM
Services?

Winehole23
05-15-2010, 05:42 AM
Really?

ElNono
05-15-2010, 10:56 AM
Don't forget Intellectual Property...
That's why the US is currently very aggressive pushing ACTA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement), a DMCA-like legislation for the rest of the world.

boutons_deux
05-15-2010, 12:44 PM
Even going green, the US can't compete even with high tech manufactured stuff from China.

"Four Democratic senators on Wednesday implored the Obama administration to stop spending federal stimulus dollars on renewable energy projects whenever the bulk of solar cell and wind turbine manufacturing is done overseas."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/6896149.html

Of course, the "free market" always produces the ideal, perfect solution to everything.

boutons_deux
05-20-2010, 04:54 AM
Prime mortgages going bust at an alarming rate

"fixed-rate mortgages held by the safest borrowers accounted for nearly 37 percent of new foreclosures during the first three months of this year, the Mortgage Bankers Association reported Wednesday.

Additionally, more than one in 10 homeowners were behind on their mortgage payments in the first quarter — a record, the association said. That's up from 9.47 percent in the last three months of 2009.

Prime loans, those made to the safest borrowers with the highest credit scores, account for almost 66 percent of outstanding U.S. mortgages"

http://readersupportednews.org/off-site-news-section/81-81/2001-prime-mortgages-going-bust-at-an-alarming-rate

TeyshaBlue
05-20-2010, 10:11 AM
Even going green, the US can't compete even with high tech manufactured stuff from China.

"Four Democratic senators on Wednesday implored the Obama administration to stop spending federal stimulus dollars on renewable energy projects whenever the bulk of solar cell and wind turbine manufacturing is done overseas."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/6896149.html

Of course, the "free market" always produces the ideal, perfect solution to everything.

You bring up a point that's always bugged me about, at least, China's contribution. Has China ever made anything that wasn't absolute, utter crap?
The recent brouhaha over Wal*Mart selling the cadnium laced jewely manufactured in China seems telling. Add in the drywall fiasco, the dog food and baby formula stories...how does anyone take China seriously as a manufacturing source? On a more intimate level, I've bought several project mics from China over the last couple of years. The level of assembly quality makes Soviet-era manufacturing look like top shelf.

(Oh, and Duff...this is an opinion.:rolleyes)