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View Full Version : More questions than answers so far in oil spill probe



RandomGuy
05-12-2010, 03:23 PM
What went wrong at oil rig? A lot, probers find

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100512/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gulf_oil_spill

By H. JOSEF HEBERT and FREDERIC J. FROMMER, Associated Press Writers H. Josef Hebert And Frederic J. Frommer, Associated Press Writers – 9 mins ago

WASHINGTON – Bad wiring and a leak in what's supposed to be a "blowout preventer." Sealing problems that may have allowed a methane eruption. Even a dead battery, of all things.

New disclosures Wednesday revealed a complicated cascade of deep-sea equipment failures and procedural problems in the oil rig explosion and massive spill that is still fouling the waters of the Gulf of Mexico and threatening industries and wildlife near the coast and on shore.

The disclosures were described in internal corporate documents, marked confidential but provided to a House committee by BP PLC, the well's operator, and by the manufacturer of the safety device. Congressional investigators released them.

A senior BP executive, Lamar McKay, cautioned lawmakers, "It's inappropriate to draw any conclusions before all the facts are known." But the documents established the firmest evidence to date of the sequence of catastrophic events that led to the explosion and worsening spill, a series of failures more reminiscent of the loss of the space shuttle Challenger than the wreck of the Exxon Valdez.

Like the 1986 Challenger disaster, the investigation into the Gulf spill may well show that complex and seemingly failproof technical systems went wrong because of overlooked problems that interacted with each other in unexpected ways. In the 1989 Exxon Valdez disaster, a captain simply ran his ship onto a reef in Alaska's Prince William Sound, spilling some 11 millions barrels of oil.

The April 20 BP rig explosion killed 11 people. Since then, nearly 4 million barrels of oil have spewed from the broken well pipe 5,000 feet under water 40 miles off the Louisiana coast, threatening sensitive ecological marshes and wetlands and the region's fishing industry.

Congressional investigators revealed Wednesday that a key safety system, known as the blowout preventer, used in BP's oil-drilling rig in the Gulf had a hydraulic leak and a failed battery that probably prevented it from working as designed.

They said that BP documents and others also indicated conflicting pipe pressure tests should have warned those on the rig that poor pipe integrity may have been allowing explosive methane gas to leak into the well.

"Significant pressure discrepancies were observed in at least two of these tests, which were conducted just hours before the explosion," said Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., at a House hearing on the rig fire and oil leak, citing documents his committee had received from BP.

Asked about the tests, Steven Newman, president of Transocean, which owned the drilling rig, and Lamar McKay, president of BP America told the committee the pressure readings were worrisome.

They indicated "that there was something happening in the well bore that shouldn't be happening," said Newman. McKay said the issue "is critical in the investigation" into the cause of the accident.

The well explosion unleashed a massive oil spill that after three weeks remains uncontained.

But Waxman said important elements of what went wrong were beginning to surface.

While "we have far more questions than answers," it appears clear that there were problems with the blowout preventers before the accident and confusion almost right up to the time of the explosion over the success of a process in which cement is injected into the well to temporarily close it in anticipation of future production.

In other developments Wednesday:

• The White House asked Congress to raise the limits on BP's liability to cover damage from the spill beyond the $75 million cap now in law. It also wants oil companies to pay more into a federal oil spill cleanup fund.

BP president Lamar McKay said the company will pay any legitimate claim of damages beyond cleanup costs despite the federal cap.

• On the Gulf Coast, a new containment box — a cylinder called a "top hat" — was placed on the sea floor near the well leak. Engineers hope to work out ways to avoid the problem that scuttled an earlier effort with a much bigger box before they move the cylinder over the end of the 5,000-foot-long pipe from the well.

• The Minerals Management Service told a government panel of investigators in Kenner, La., that inspections of deepwater drilling rigs has turned up only "a couple of minor issues."

The House hearing into the spill was the third this week at which executives of BP and two other companies were questioned by lawmakers.

The committee produced one document from BP that provided the most detailed information to date on what led up to and may have caused the explosion and spill at the Deepwater Horizon rig, floating in mile-deep waters 40 miles off the coast of Louisiana, and why equipment designed to stop a spill failed to do the job.

Rep. Bart Stupak, D-Mich., said there were at least "four significant problems with the blowout preventer" — or BOP — including evidence that it had a significant hydraulic leak and a dead battery that was supposed to activate a so-called "deadman" trigger.

A 2001 report by Transocean, which made the BOP equipment, indicated there can be as many as 260 failure possibilities in the equipment, which is supposed to be the final safeguard against a well blowout by clamping down and sealing a gushing oil well, said Stupak, chairman of the panel's investigation's subcommittee.

"How can a device that has 260 failure modes be considered fail-safe?" asked Stupak.

Stupak said when an underwater remote vehicle tried to activate the blowout protector's devices designed to ram through the pipe and seal it, a loss of hydraulic pressure was discovered in the device's emergency power component.

When dye was injected "it showed a large leak coming from a loose fitting," said Stupak, citing BP documents. He said officials at Cameron, the company that made the preventer, had told the committee the leak was not believed to have been caused by the blowout because other fittings in the system were tight.

Stupak also questioned why the BOP had been modified.

Newman, the Transocean executive told the committee that, indeed, the BOP had been modified in 2005 at the request of BP and with approval of the Minerals Management Service.

Stupak said the committee had been told that one of the BOP's ram drivers had been changed so it could be used for routine testing and was no longer designed to activate in an emergency. He said after the spill BP "spent a day trying to use this ... useless test ram" which no longer was configured for emergency use.

Executives of the companies involved have sought to shift blame on one another at Senate and House hearings this week on the spill.

BP has cited the failure of the blowout preventer owned by Transocean, which in turn has raised questions about the cementing process conducted by Halliburton, a BP subcontractor.

At Senate hearings Tuesday and again before the House panel, Timothy Probert, an executive of Halliburton, said that its work had been completed except for the installation of a final cement cap and that it was done according to the BP drilling plan.

Wild Cobra
05-12-2010, 10:38 PM
• The White House asked Congress to raise the limits on BP's liability to cover damage from the spill beyond the $75 million cap now in law. It also wants oil companies to pay more into a federal oil spill cleanup fund.

LOL...

Once again, they prove they don't know or care about the constitution. Part of Article 1 section 9:

No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

ChumpDumper
05-12-2010, 10:47 PM
LOL...

Once again, they prove they don't know or care about the constitution. Part of Article 1 section 9:There are fairly clear exceptions to that. Not sure if this case could be another.

ElNono
05-12-2010, 11:21 PM
LOL...

Once again, they prove they don't know or care about the constitution. Part of Article 1 section 9:

Funny you didn't quote this when the retroactive telecom immunity bill was passed. I guess the Republican president that signed it off didn't know either?

Wild Cobra
05-12-2010, 11:49 PM
Funny you didn't quote this when the retroactive telecom immunity bill was passed. I guess the Republican president that signed it off didn't know either?
That is not a similar example. Immunity is a protection that was already assumed in this case. No law either way before.

ElNono
05-13-2010, 12:13 AM
That is not a similar example. Immunity is a protection that was already assumed in this case. No law either way before.

In what case?
If a law is granting immunity (ie: there was no immunity before the law, which there wasn't, otherwise you wouldn't need the law at all), it couldn't possibly do so in a retroactive manner, according to your quote.

RandomGuy
05-13-2010, 09:18 AM
LOL...

Once again, they prove they don't know or care about the constitution, [because they are talking about raising the civil law liability of BP]. Part of Article 1 section 9:

"No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed. "



Once again you prove that you talk out of your ass a lot.

This is where I normally would start asking you questions that I already know the answer to in order to expose rather painfully and clearly how you are talking out of your ass, yet again, but I will short-circuit that process and skip to the point.

Ex post facto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law) and Bill of attainder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_attainder) both refer to criminal law. Ex post facto meaning to make something illegal retroactively, bill of attainder meaning that a legistature declares someone guilty of some crime without a trial.

Neither of which generally has fuckall to do with caps on civil liability, which is partly why the Supreme Court decided in several cases that the Constitution did not prohibit changes to civil liability statutes.

Let me guess, Fox "News" told you what to think again?

or perhaps it was Mark Knollers op-ed piece?

TeyshaBlue
05-13-2010, 09:31 AM
Once again you prove that you talk out of your ass a lot.

This is where I normally would start asking you questions that I already know the answer to in order to expose rather painfully and clearly how you are talking out of your ass, yet again, but I will short-circuit that process and skip to the point.

Ex post facto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law) and Bill of attainder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_attainder) both refer to criminal law. Ex post facto meaning to make something illegal retroactively, bill of attainder meaning that a legistature declares someone guilty of some crime without a trial.

Neither of which has fuckall to do with caps on civil liability.

pwnt

RandomGuy
05-13-2010, 09:41 AM
pwnt

For what it is worth here is the likely source that WC used to think for him:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20004217-503544.html


Even though the Constitution expressly forbids passage of ex post facto laws, some in Congress and at the White House want to retroactively raise the amount for which British Petroleum is liable in the April 20th oil well calamity.


Ex post facto is Latin for "after the fact." And an ex post facto law is one that is enacted or changed to apply retroactively to a crime or other action.


Under current law, BP is liable up to $75 million for cleanup of the oil spill.


But New Jersey's Democratic Senators Robert Menendez and Frank Lautenberg are co-sponsoring a measure to substantially increase the liability limit to $10 billion.


They seem unconcerned by Article 1, Section 9 of the Constitution which states explicitly:


"No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed."


Over the years, the courts have ruled against some ex post facto laws - but have allowed others to stand.


Menendez notes that the 30-year-old Superfund law retroactively imposed enormous liabilities on companies to clean up hazardous waste sites.


Constitutional law Prof. Jonathan Turley of George Washington University says ex post facto laws are "always controversial" and "raise serious questions," but might pass Supreme Court scrutiny.


"It runs against the grain," said Turley in a telephone interview with CBS News, "but on the other hand, the Court has upheld retroactive taxes."


"There have been precedents," he said, "so it would give Congress an edge in retroactively increasing BP's liability.


Whether it does or not, the White House is adamant in asserting that it will hold BP financially responsible for the costs of the oil spill containment and cleanup.


"They are fully liable for cleanup and recovery costs per the Oil Pollution Act of 1990," says presidential spokesman Robert Gibbs. And he points to an exception in the law that eliminates the limit on liability.


"The cap is not in place if somebody is found to be either grossly negligent... involved in willful misconduct, or in violation of federal regulations," said Gibbs at his daily press briefing yesterday.

(Credit: AP) Further, Gibbs made it clear that administration officials are also working on legislation to lift the $75 million liability cap and raise it.

"Obviously we've got a situation where (liability) could easily top $75 million in a short period of time," he said.

"This is about making Big Oil responsible for its excesses," said Sen. Menendez of his plan to expand liability after the fact.

And even BP's Chief Executive Officer Tony Hayward (at left) says his company is not looking to hide behind the protection of a liability cap.

He told a news conference yesterday that all legitimate claims "will be honored."

So much for Article 1, Section 9 of the Constitution. The Founders should have slapped an asterisk on the prohibition of ex post facto laws.*

*Except when Congress feels like it.

I could be the one talking out my ass if the law mentioned deals with criminal liability, in which case my hasty, testy response would have been unwarranted.

Wild Cobra
05-13-2010, 10:28 AM
Once again you prove that you talk out of your ass a lot.

This is where I normally would start asking you questions that I already know the answer to in order to expose rather painfully and clearly how you are talking out of your ass, yet again, but I will short-circuit that process and skip to the point.

Ex post facto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law) and Bill of attainder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_attainder) both refer to criminal law. Ex post facto meaning to make something illegal retroactively, bill of attainder meaning that a legistature declares someone guilty of some crime without a trial.

Neither of which generally has fuckall to do with caps on civil liability, which is partly why the Supreme Court decided in several cases that the Constitution did not prohibit changes to civil liability statutes.

Let me guess, Fox "News" told you what to think again?

or perhaps it was Mark Knollers op-ed piece?

Article 9 does is a limit on congressional powers. That is part of their limits. It does not say in criminal law only. Just because bill of attainder is in the same sentence, does not mean they are both linked to the criminal process.

When you dismiss me for your belief someone else tells me what to think, you prove your own ignorance.

Wild Cobra
05-13-2010, 10:32 AM
For what it is worth here is the likely source that WC used to think for him:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20004217-503544.html

No, I didn't read that article till now. I simply understand some concepts of the constitution rather well.

Do they teach the constitution in depth in High School anymore? Probably not. It defies the agenda of the indoctrination process.

boutons_deux
05-13-2010, 12:46 PM
Lower taxes would both stop the leak and clean up the Gulf and shores.

RandomGuy
05-13-2010, 01:40 PM
Article 9 does is a limit on congressional powers. That is part of their limits. It does not say in criminal law only. Just because bill of attainder is in the same sentence, does not mean they are both linked to the criminal process.

When you dismiss me for your belief someone else tells me what to think, you prove your own ignorance.

(sighs)

Yes, actually, both terms are rather specific when referring to criminal law.

Before stating that conclusively I did a modicum of research and both terms refer rather specifically to making something illegal after the fact.


Bill of Attainder

Definition: A legislative act that singles out an individual or group for punishment without a trial.

The Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 9, paragraph 3 provides that: "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law will be passed."

"The Bill of Attainder Clause was intended not as a narrow, technical (and therefore soon to be outmoded) prohibition, but rather as an implementation of the separation of powers, a general safeguard against legislative exercise of the judicial function or more simply - trial by legislature." U.S. v. Brown, 381 U.S. 437, 440 (1965).

"These clauses of the Constitution are not of the broad, general nature of the Due Process Clause, but refer to rather precise legal terms which had a meaning under English law at the time the Constitution was adopted. A bill of attainder was a legislative act that singled out one or more persons and imposed punishment on them, without benefit of trial. Such actions were regarded as odious by the framers of the Constitution because it was the traditional role of a court, judging an individual case, to impose punishment." William H. Rehnquist, The Supreme Court, page 166.

"Bills of attainder, ex post facto laws, and laws impairing the obligations of contracts, are contrary to the first principles of the social compact, and to every principle of sound legislation. ... The sober people of America are weary of the fluctuating policy which has directed the public councils. They have seen with regret and indignation that sudden changes and legislative interferences, in cases affecting personal rights, become jobs in the hands of enterprising and influential speculators, and snares to the more-industrious and less-informed part of the community." James Madison, Federalist Number 44, 1788.

Supreme Court cases construing the Bill of Attainder clause include:

Ex Parte Garland, 4 Wallace 333 (1866).
Cummings v. Missouri, 4 Wallace 277 (1866).
U.S. v. Brown, 381 U.S. 437 (1965).
Nixon v. Administrator of General Services, 433 U.S.425 (1977).
Selective Service Administration v. Minnesota PIRG, 468 U.S. 841 (1984).
See also, SBC v. FCC.

http://www.techlawjournal.com/glossary/legal/attainder.htm

Ex post facto is also a very specific legal term that refers to making something illegal, i.e. CRIMINAL, after the fact.

In this case the particular "liability" limit though may either refer to civil liability, or some liability to the government. I think in either case spilling the oil simply seems to trigger an existing law.

If we are talking about some sort of civil liability cap, then this clause of the constitution has no applicability.

If the liability in question were actually of a criminal nature, i.e. there is some violation of statute that triggered a liability to pay a a fine, then the clause does indeed have an arguable applicability, although there is some precedent that limits its applicability, as mentioned in the article I posted.

Either way, I think a $75M cap on liability would seem to be grossly low in this case, where cleanup and economic costs will dwarf that figure pretty quickly, don't you?

ElNono
05-13-2010, 01:43 PM
I simply think I understand some concepts of the constitution rather well.

fify :lmao

Wild Cobra
05-13-2010, 01:50 PM
Ex post facto is also a very specific legal term that refers to making something illegal, i.e. CRIMINAL, after the fact.
Bullshit. In law, you do not change the meaning of words. It simply means after-the-fact laws. It does not specify criminal law.

Either way, I think a $75M cap on liability would seem to be grossly low in this case, where cleanup and economic costs will dwarf that figure pretty quickly, don't you?
I agree, it is way too low a cap. However, by law, their liability is capped there. Just because we don't like the law doesn't give us the right to change and apply it "ex post facto." The cap should be changed, but it cannot be applied after the fact. Just for future cases.

RandomGuy
05-13-2010, 02:14 PM
Bullshit. In law, you do not change the meaning of words. It simply means after-the-fact laws. It does not specify criminal law.

I am pretty sure it does, but the burden of proof is mine as it is my claim, so I will do a bit of digging. My reading of the research so far seems to imply that both deal solely with making something criminal, not civil liability caps, which by themselves do not make something illegal that was previously legal.

Feel free to prove your point by finding something that speaks to it directly before I get there though.


Bill Of Attainder
(n) Bill Of Attainder is a legislative Act which declares a person or group as guilty of any crime, there by ordering punishment to them, without allowing them a chance to represent their cause or an unbiased trial to determine whether they are guilty. Many constitutions prohibit enacting of such Acts. This was practiced by English monarchies during eighteenth century.
http://www.legal-explanations.com/definitions/bill-of-attainder.htm

Most definitions I found did not specify directly "crime" but that is pretty much implied in every other resource I could find.


I agree, it is way too low a cap. However, by law, their liability is capped there. Just because we don't like the law doesn't give us the right to change and apply it "ex post facto." The cap should be changed, but it cannot be applied after the fact. Just for future cases.

Since the leak is ongoing, and much of the damages are in the future, when would it be "after the fact"? This is an event that will likely play out over weeks/months it seems.

Color me skeptical of your claim of greivous injury to the Constitution.

RandomGuy
05-18-2010, 03:43 PM
Hmm seems to me after a bit more digging like this has little to do with ex post facto or anything similar.

All the definitions I saw regarding those legal terms had to do with making something criminal.

How does raising the cap on civil liabilities make something illegal after the fact?

Wild Cobra
05-18-2010, 06:26 PM
In civil law, it is as if it were a contract. Decisions are based on the limited risk factors involved financially. If BP had operated under the provisions of a larger financial risk, they probably would have operated differently. Courts will see such actions that way. They have no chance to change their operations ex post facto, thus, it's not fair to change the rules after an incident.

Maybe if you had a time machine...

Yonivore
05-18-2010, 06:33 PM
Isn't someone suing Obama's Interior Department for giving BP all sorts of waivers?

Wild Cobra
05-18-2010, 06:36 PM
Isn't someone suing Obama's Interior Department for giving BP all sorts of waivers?
I thought it was for lack of inspections, but I wasn't paying attention when I heard the news blip.

Yonivore
05-18-2010, 06:43 PM
I thought it was for lack of inspections, but I wasn't paying attention when I heard the news blip.
No, I'm pretty sure it was for an action, not an inaction.

Wild Cobra
05-18-2010, 06:47 PM
No, I'm pretty sure it was for an action, not an inaction.
LOL...

That's what I get for playing video games with the news in the background.

Yonivore
05-18-2010, 06:49 PM
Fishermen and Conservationists Sue U.S. Department of Interior For Illegal Waivers of Blowout and Spill Response Planning in Gulf of Mexico Disaster (http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2010/05/18-19)
5 seconds of googling.

RandomGuy
05-19-2010, 11:54 AM
In civil law, it is as if it were a contract. Decisions are based on the limited risk factors involved financially. If BP had operated under the provisions of a larger financial risk, they probably would have operated differently. Courts will see such actions that way. They have no chance to change their operations ex post facto, thus, it's not fair to change the rules after an incident.

Maybe if you had a time machine...

Hmmm. That I could buy: a reasoned, logical argument.

I doubt it would have really changed their operations, though.

This is what happens when you take the ability of juries to set penalties, though.

$75M is laughably low for a liability limit.

RandomGuy
05-19-2010, 11:56 AM
Moody's: Gulf Oil spill could have long-term negative credit impact on Gulf Coast communities
http://www.nola.com/news/gulf-oil-spill/index.ssf/2010/05/moodys_oil_spill_could_have_lo.html

Oil spill shuts down 19 percent of Gulf fishing
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/may/18/182309/obama-administration-faces-questions-oil-spill/

TeyshaBlue
05-19-2010, 11:58 AM
Moody's: Gulf Oil spill could have long-term negative credit impact on Gulf Coast communities
http://www.nola.com/news/gulf-oil-spill/index.ssf/2010/05/moodys_oil_spill_could_have_lo.html

Oil spill shuts down 19 percent of Gulf fishing
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/may/18/182309/obama-administration-faces-questions-oil-spill/

Frankly, I'm shocked that the figure is only 19%. I expect that to worsen.:depressed

RandomGuy
05-19-2010, 12:09 PM
Frankly, I'm shocked that the figure is only 19%. I expect that to worsen.:depressed

Likely yes. From what I was able to gather from the Ixtoc spill data, the oil toxicity doesn't appear to be terribly persistant though.

From what I understand the larger danger is outright extinction of entire populations, as the oil kills off the base of the food chain in places.

The bacteria that eat the oil also deplete the water of O2, so that will tend to really drive fish populations out of affected areas. Whether the places those fish end up can support the "refugee" populations is another matter.

It seems like oyster populations are goign to be hit hard though simply because they can't move around.

boutons_deux
05-19-2010, 12:13 PM
There's already a huge dead zone where the Petro/AgriBusiness-shit-filled Mississippi R dumps into the Gulf, to be contrasted with the huge "life zone" where the Amazon dumps into the Atlantic.

America is self-fucked.