Forget LeBron, what's wrong with Cleveland fans?

[mogrovejo]

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/15845/forget-lebron-whats-wrong-with-cleveland-fans
By Henry Abbott

LeBron James is 25 years old, and has played 70 playoff games in which he has averaged 29 points, eight rebounds and seven assists.

His career playoff PER is better than Michael Jordan's. Remember that Jordan's playoff PER wasn't marred by the Washington years. This is all Bulls.

Leave the "is James better than Jordan" discussion for another decade. The message is that five seasons into his playoff life, James stacks up well against the very best ever, in terms of production, defense, playoff wins and anything else you can measure or see with your eyes. He almost never has bad games.

Forgive me a detour: I remember being a kid at Blazer games in the old Memorial Coliseum. Those Clyde Drexler/Terry Porter teams inspired us fans countless times in the playoffs. Much like the Cavaliers to date, they didn't win a title, but they competed so hard and won more than enough to convince everyone that they had our best interests at heart. Now and again, if they fell far behind in a game, the fans would take a turn to lead. The team would be having its worst quarter in a month, and the faithful would rise and cheer like crazy. It was our turn to lift their spirits, after having it go the other way so many times.

Instead of questioning them, abandoning them or even hating them, fans showed a little love, like you would to a family member having a bad day.

Because, although it seems to come as a shock to many, even James has bad days. So did Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Oscar Roberston and everybody else. So do you! And that's OK.

The "LeBacle" may soon prove to have been one of the darkest moments in Cleveland's miserable sports history (http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2010/05/12/lebron-and-agony/).

But please, spare us the assertion that after one bad night we know James has always had a permanent flaw. It's just absurd, and amazingly some of it's coming from the faithful in Cleveland. Twitter, Internet comments, my e-mail inbox, Facebook, all are loaded to the gills with talk that he's doomed to mediocrity, psychologically deficient or was intentionally tanking.

As if those 69 playoff contests and 548 regular-season games were the aberration, and this one horrible night was the truth. As if the guy who scored 25 straight against the Pistons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chdWSvVkeV4&feature=related) in a similar situation needs a lecture, from Twitter, on embracing the challenge.

Somebody should make a big list of all those people who think they now know James is a doomed player, and we'll revisit in a decade.

A couple picked, unfairly, almost at random ... this one happens to come from the comments of a tremendous Kevin Arnovitz video post about James (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/15832/what-happened-to-lebron-james):

ChicoEscuela: I'm a Cleveland fan who has been watching Bron play since high school. ... His legacy got tarnished last night. He should no longer be mentioned in the same sentence with MJ ever again.
And another:

RWABO8: ... he's psychologically tweaked. Whether it's last night or refusing to shake hands last year, it's like he's gone through some kind of arrested development. You wonder if he missed something about teamwork and sportsmanship by never playing college hoops. This weakness will continue to hamstring his game until he sorts it out, or until he goes to a team that doesn't need him to play as big a role. The Cavs needed a big man in the classic sense last night, not the basketball sense. And King James acted like a peasant.
Maybe Cleveland fans are just bitter about the way James has teased them in the lead-up to free agency. Maybe a lot of this commentary is fueled by Kobe Bryant fans, eager to prove theirs is the better man.

Or maybe, after watching the Cavaliers roll to a 26-8 (before last night) home playoff record through James' five playoff runs, Cleveland fans have been spoiled. Whatever the cause, people are acting rotten.

Whatever James is doing, in terms of killer mentality, pre-game routines, workout regimens, shot selection ... it has been about as effective as humans can be. If you watched his first 69 playoff games, you would have to assume that he has this playoff thing figured out.

After one bad showing, even while playing injured (http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2010/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-100512), fans are booing on their way to the exits? James hasn't earned a single mulligan?

Even the owner is distancing himself from the team (http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2010/05/cleveland_cavaliers_poor_effor.html). I know Dan Gilbert hardly bailed on his players, but in their moment of need, he reminded people that he did his part, but the players didn't. Would it have been so hard to say something like "if we have to be down 3-2, I'd rather be there with LeBron James on my side?"

I don't know what's going to happen in this series. But I know that past performance is the best indication of future results, and James' has been as good as it gets. There may be something -- an injury, fatigue, who knows -- keeping James from being himself. But there's nothing about being himself that's keeping him from winning.

------------------------------------

Fully agreed. Cleveland fans are being absolutely pathetic.

What's funny is that LeBron James was way worse in the 08 series vs. the Celtics. In this one, he's averaring 26.8ppg on a TS% of 56.5% + 7.4rpg + 6.6apg + shutting down Paul Pierce or Rajon Rondo depending on who he's guarding.

[HarlemHeat37]

Cleveland is just a pathetic city that will never have any success in any of their sports..they have a once in a lifetime talent on their team, he's taken their horrible franchise to an NBA Finals, some ECFs and semis, 60 win seasons..he's brought them more hype than they could have imagined, he's probably the only reason the casual fan even knows their franchise exists..

Now they're jumping off the bandwagon, even though the series isn't over yet..

Lebron needs to come to NY already..he would be a God here..Knick fans haven't had shit in 10 years, they'll be tickling his balls if he got the team to the ECSF next year, let alone an NBA Finals..

[Goran Dragic]

Lebron needs to come to NY already..he would be a God here..Knick fans haven't had shit in 10 years, they'll be tickling his balls if he got the team to the ECSF next year, let alone an NBA Finals..


I take it you're gonna go back to being a Knicks fan once they get Lebron?

[HarlemHeat37]

No, I'll never be a Knicks fan, but I like to see NY basketball succeed..a lot of my friends are Knicks fans, I'd like to see their team do well too..

I'm also a Lebron fan, as everybody can see, so I'd like to see him go somewhere where he will be appreciated..NY would never boo him..

[ChrisRichards]

Can't blame Cavs fans. Lebron is the only thing going for them and he's about to leave the city with a bad taste in their mouth.

[sook]

what do you mean whats wrong with them? Hes talking about sleeping with other women while he's married.

[LnGrrrR]

Look, the city of Cleveland is dying for a title. Of course they're going to act insane when the biggest start they've had in decades doesn't seem to be giving it 100%, or isn't driving to the lane and settling for jumpers instead.

They're half-crazed, thinking that they had a good chance at a title this year. To lose in the second round? Unthinkable.

[JoeTait75]

First of all, Henry Abbott can't possibly understand what being a Cleveland fan is all about. He's a Portland guy. No MLB, no NFL- all they have in that city is the Blazers. So of course the people there are going to expend every last inch of fervor they have on that team. They don't have any other options. We do.

Second of all, yeah, we're going to turn on LeBron when he fails. It's not as if he's a Josh Cribbs-type, an undrafted free agent who came out of nowhere to become a superstar. He's THE KING. THE CHOSEN ONE. He was billed as the savior of this franchise as an 18-year old high-school senior. When there's that degree of build-up it makes the fallout that much more severe.

(I also said months ago on this forum that there's an undercurrent of discontent with LeBron in Cleveland. He's tweaked his nose at this fan base too many times, flirted with New York too many times, worn Yankees caps in public too many times. He's held in awe for his basketball skills, but I wouldn't say he's loved- not in the way guys like, say, Bernie Kosar were. I don't even think he's that well-liked. That's how you get people like me who were basically waiting for the chance to jump LeBron's shit and run him out of town.)

Third, there's the starvation, the utter desperation, for a title. That increases the bitterness when a debacle like last night's takes place.

Fourth, I have to laugh at a bandwagon Spurs fan from NYC who claims LeBron would be "more appreciated" in that city. Had LeBron put on that kind of sorry performance in a Knick uniform he would have been booed right out of Madison Square Garden. Look at the way Yankees fans treated A-Rod for years, and he's a truly great player.

[Goran Dragic]

:lmao JoeTait just bukkaked this entire thread

[DPG21920]

WGAF if he wears Yankee caps?

[mogrovejo]

Okay, it seems the answer is that the problem with Cleveland fans is that they're basketball illiterate and over-emotional.

LBJ is having a great playoffs. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

[Goran Dragic]

WGAF if he wears Yankee caps?


Someone who doesn't know all black people in the country cheer for the Yankees.

[JoeTait75]

Okay, it seems the answer is that the problem with Cleveland fans is that they're basketball illiterate and over-emotional.

Whatever you say. You don't have to be Hubie Brown to recognize a big smelly turd.


LBJ is having a great playoffs.

Yup, he's been great for the Celtics.

[Goran Dragic]

So the two people who don't understand where JoeTait is coming from:

The bandwagon Spurs fan in NY
The bandwagon Celts fan in Spain

[ginobili's bald spot]

Fourth, I have to laugh at a bandwagon Spurs fan from NYC who claims LeBron would be "more appreciated" in that city. Had LeBron put on that kind of sorry performance in a Knick uniform he would have been booed right out of Madison Square Garden. Look at the way Yankees fans treated A-Rod for years, and he's a truly great player.


:lmao Real talk.

[JoeTait75]

What gets me is that every other fan base can rip into their team and players- Mavs fans can rip into Dirk, Suns fans can rip into Nash, Lakers fans can rip into Kobe- but Cavaliers fans are just supposed to be a bunch of battered wives putting up with LeBron laying down like a dog in a must-win game.

[Goran Dragic]

It is pretty funny NYfan of all people is talking shit when NY has by far the most fickle fan base in the country.

[LnGrrrR]

Okay, it seems the answer is that the problem with Cleveland fans is that they're basketball illiterate and over-emotional.

LBJ is having a great playoffs. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

I think you can be disappointed with his performance last night while still realizing he's a stellar player and has performed at a high level throughout the series.

And over-emotional? Eh, if I had to go through what Cleveland has, I would be.

I still remember when the Pats won their first championship. I was cheering my head off outside my dorm room. And being pissed off all day last year when the Colts beat them.

When the Red Sox won that Game 3 and 4 against the Yankees, I've never felt so amazed in my entire life. The Idiots did it.

And when the Celtics won? Over the Lakers? Just sweet... I was extremely happy for the whole team, especially Pierce.

I watch sports because I take emotion in it. Others may watch for the love of the game only, but I like investing part of myself into the teams I root for.

[HarlemHeat37]

Fourth, I have to laugh at a bandwagon Spurs fan from NYC who claims LeBron would be "more appreciated" in that city. Had LeBron put on that kind of sorry performance in a Knick uniform he would have been booed right out of Madison Square Garden. Look at the way Yankees fans treated A-Rod for years, and he's a truly great player.

ARod was a perennial playoff choker..he ALWAYS choked in the playoffs, despite being paid a historical amount of money..he's not an original Yankee like Jeter, either..

Lebron has been a Cav his entire career, he was raised around that pathetic city..he has never choked in the playoffs..one game doesn't change that..turning on a guy for 1 bad game is one of the saddest sights I've ever seen..a guy that averaged 37/8/8 or whatever it was in last year's ECF, a guy that led a team to the NBA Finals, a guy that scored 40 in a game 7 vs. Boston, a guy that had one of the greatest performances of all-time vs. Detroit..that guy is far from a playoff choker, and booing him for 1 game is so ridiculous..

I'm far from a bandwagoner, my location doesn't change that..it should be obvious by the fact that I'm still a Spur fan and spend a lot of time discussing the Spurs here, despite 2 disappointing seasons in a row..

Hopefully the Cavs' franchise is relocated soon..

[JoeTait75]

Boston fan should understand better than most the frustration that builds during a Championship drought. They should know very well from their experience with the Red Sox.

[HarlemHeat37]

Uh, it's not just "booing"..did you not read what these people are saying about Lebron?..are you serious right now?..they're bashing him and most fans on Cavs boards are just trashing him and calling him mentally weak/soft..

I know a lot of insecure fans have a complex when NY is involved, especially here, but get serious..if Lebron joins the Knicks and ever gets booed, I'll never post here again..

[mogrovejo]

So the two people who don't understand where JoeTait is coming from:

The bandwagon Spurs fan in NY
The bandwagon Celts fan in Spain

Plus the writer of the article.

I understand where he's coming from: they're a bunch of emos, who have some weird traumas with the their sports history and with baseball caps .

If this isn't really about basketball but about that kind of childish stuff, I really don't care much. It was the idea that a guy putting 26.8ppg/7.4rpg/6.6apg with crazy efficiency and All-NBA defense is having a bad series that I was finding laughable. Now, if it has nothing to do with basketball but with their emotional well-being, that's none of my business.

[Goran Dragic]

Uh, it's not just "booing"..did you not read what these people are saying about Lebron?..are you serious right now?..they're bashing him and most fans on Cavs boards are just trashing him and calling him mentally weak/soft..


Yeah, NY fan didn't say any mean stuff about Arod.

[JoeTait75]

ARod was a perennial playoff choker..he ALWAYS choked in the playoffs, despite being paid a historical amount of money..he's not an original Yankee like Jeter, either

Typical New York BS. ARod is a great, great player. Period. He wasn't the problem in those postseason losses, it was the sorry Yankee pitching staff that did them in.

As for Jeter, well, he hit .176 during the ALDS against the Indians a few years ago, accounted for something like 19 outs in 17 at-bats, was absolutely awful, and what did Yankees fans do? They blamed ARod.

Face it, you treated a great player like absolute garbage for years.

[Goran Dragic]

Typical New York BS. ARod is a great, great player. Period. He wasn't the problem in those postseason losses, it was the sorry Yankee pitching staff that did them in.

As for Jeter, well, he hit .176 during the ALDS against the Indians a few years ago, accounted for something like 19 outs in 17 at-bats, was absolutely awful, and what did Yankees fans do? They blamed ARod.

Face it, you treated a great player like absolute garbage for years.


:lmao pwned

[mogrovejo]

Boston fan should understand better than most the frustration that builds during a Championship drought. They should know very well from their experience with the Red Sox.

I'm not a Red Sox fan, but obviously I've experimented frustration with the Celtics in the past.

However, I like to think I never allowed my passions to cloud my judgement. I never tried to pretend that a player having a great series was "tanking" just because I needed to find an escape for my frustrations. I find that pretty pathetic, to be honest. Like I never subscribed the theory that "we can't win with Pierce, he's a natural born loser, empty stats, bla bla bla". I found that ridiculous re: Pierce and it's even more if we're talking about LeBron. I think it takes away from the pleasure of enjoying the game.

[Goran Dragic]

I'm not a Red Sox fan, but obviously I've experimented frustration with the Celtics in the past.

However, I like to think I never allowed my passions to cloud my judgement. I never tried to pretend that a player having a great series was "tanking" just because I needed to find an escape for my frustrations. I find that pretty pathetic, to be honest. I think it takes away from the pleasure of enjoying the game.


I find your know it all superiority complex over the internet to be some of the most pathetic garbage I've ever witnessed.

[Tmac&Luther]

NY would never boo him..

:lol This is NY we're talking about here. Not only do they boo their teams/players, their media would tear LeBron a new asshole if he played there like he did in Cleveland last night.

[mogrovejo]

I find your know it all superiority complex over the internet to be some of the most pathetic garbage I've ever witnessed.

I find your inability to get over it amusing. :lol

[Goran Dragic]

I find your inability to get over it amusing. :lol


Why don't you just "get over" Cleveland fan then?

[HarlemHeat37]

Typical New York BS. ARod is a great, great player. Period. He wasn't the problem in those postseason losses, it was the sorry Yankee pitching staff that did them in.

As for Jeter, well, he hit .176 during the ALDS against the Indians a few years ago, accounted for something like 19 outs in 17 at-bats, was absolutely awful, and what did Yankees fans do? They blamed ARod.

Face it, you treated a great player like absolute garbage for years.

ARod sucked in EVERY playoff series he was in as a Yankee except ONE before the WS run..he had every right to get booed, he was having unbelievably bad series'..he didn't have a good relationship with the fans, had tons of problems off the court when it came to relating with the fans and he couldn't do anything on the field to make up for it..

He batted over .300 in ONE series in the playoffs before the WS run..he was unbelievably bad..

When ARod finally stepped up after years of mediocrity, he got his praise..

Jeter will never get booed, because he earned it..he's a winner, he's a lifetime Yankee that always performed well in the playoffs and he's great at relating to the fans..

[Goran Dragic]

Jeter will never get booed, because he earned it


:lmao he earned the right to choke?

[HarlemHeat37]

The booing isn't the biggest issue here..fans boo..the issue is that these people are TRASHING Lebron and jumping off his bandwagon before the series is even over..these people are calling him soft and insulting him..this isn't just booing here, these ungrateful fans are trashing a guy over one game..

Saying his legacy is tarnished, saying he doesn't know teamwork, saying he's mentally weak/soft..some of them saying a lot worse..it's ridiculous and pathetic..

[mogrovejo]

Why don't you just "get over" Cleveland fan then?

Hu, what? I found their reaction intriguing. I doubt I'm the only one, I suppose that's why Abbot write this article and so many people commented it. I thought Abbot nailed it; now there's an explanation that involves extra-basketball motives and not a crazy and unjustifiable overreaction to a bad game from a superb player. I'm not sure if it makes them look any better, but it's not I'll still be thinking about this next week.

[Goran Dragic]

Hu, what? I found their reaction intriguing. I doubt I'm the only one, I suppose that's why Abbot write this article and so many people commented it. I thought Abbot nailed it; now there's an explanation that involves extra-basketball motives and not a crazy and unjustifiable overreaction to a bad game from a superb player. I'm not sure if it makes them look any better, but it's not I'll still be thinking about this next week.


I find smelly Spanish people who think they know everything intriguing.

[JoeTait75]

Hu, what? I found their reaction intriguing. I doubt I'm the only one, I suppose that's why Abbot write this article and so many people commented it. I thought Abbot nailed it; now there's an explanation that involves extra-basketball motives and not a crazy and unjustifiable overreaction to a bad game from a superb player. I'm not sure if it makes them look any better, but it's not I'll still be thinking about this next week.

Abbott is expressing the national media's contempt for Cavaliers fans, that's what he's doing. He and most of the others in the media- the exceptions being Brian Windhorst and Chris Broussard, both of whom are from here and understand- don't think we're worthy of having a player like LeBron James on our team. They never have, going back to 2003.

So of course they think we should be pathetically grateful to even stand in this man's shadow and never, ever question any of his decisions, any of his performances. After all, we really don't deserve LeBron. Some other city does- New York, Chicago, Miami, and in Abbott's case, Portland- but not us.

All last night did was confirm to them their pre-existing prejudices about Cleveland fans. That's it.

And Mojo, if you think we were out of hand last night, well...

Br6F0RnETwU

This is what we do.

[DPG21920]

Why would the media have contempt for the CLE fans?

[mogrovejo]

Abbott is expressing the national media's contempt for Cavaliers fans, that's what he's doing. He and most of the others in the media- the exceptions being Brian Windhorst and Chris Broussard, both of whom are from here and understand- don't think we're worthy of having a player like LeBron James on our team. They never have, going back to 2003.

So of course they think we should be pathetically grateful to even stand in this man's shadow and never, ever question any of his decisions, any of his performances. After all, we really don't deserve LeBron. Some other city does- New York, Chicago, Miami, and in Abbott's case, Portland- but not us.

All last night did was confirm to them their pre-existing prejudices about Cleveland fans. That's it.

That's paranoia. I had no previous opinion about Cleveland fans and I had the exact same thoughts.

It's not about being grateful. It's just understanding that every great had off nights and that if a player is putting up 27/7/7 while playing great defense the problem is probably somewhere else. I mean, Boston fans booed the Cs just 2 games ago (and obviously used the "they didn't put the effort, when they put the effort we win easily" excuse), but they didn't pile on like this.

The thing is: LeBrons performance in the 1st game vs. the Celtics in 2008 was worse than last night one. He followed it by another stinker. Where was this reaction then?

And just out of curiosity, what are you going to say if LeBron wins a title, this season or in the next one?

[mogrovejo]

I find smelly Spanish people who think they know everything intriguing.

I'm not Spanish, kike. Now shut up.

[JJ Hickson]

I'm not Spanish, kike. Now shut up.


Wowwww. U mad son? :lol And this guy calls other people racist.

[JoeTait75]

That's paranoia. I had no previous opinion about Cleveland fans and I had the exact same thoughts.

Well why the fuck would you have an opinion? You're 5,000 miles away across the ocean, what do you know? I don't go on FC Barcelona boards and break their balls because I'm aware I have no clue.


It's not about being grateful. It's just understanding that every great had off nights and that if a player is putting up 27/7/7 while playing great defense the problem is probably somewhere else. I mean, Boston fans booed the Cs just 2 games ago (and obviously used the "they didn't put the effort, when they put the effort we win easily" excuse), but they didn't pile on like this.

It's NOT that he had an off night, it's that he didn't even give a respectable effort. He mailed it in, in his own building, right in front of his own fans. He was disgraceful.

That's the difference between last night's game and Game One of the Boston series in 2008. Yeah, he was dreadful in that game- but he was TRYING. It just wasn't his night. That we can accept. But we're a city that applauds effort as much as results, and when the effort isn't there, well... we get a little pissed about it.


And just out of curiosity, what are you going to say if LeBron wins a title, this season or in the next one?

He won't. He'll never win an NBA title unless he's carpetbagging a la Gary Payton on the 2006 Heat. He's a loser.

[TDMVPDPOY]

bspn article we all know they will always have lebrons nutts in their mouths

[LnGrrrR]

That's paranoia. I had no previous opinion about Cleveland fans and I had the exact same thoughts.

It's not about being grateful. It's just understanding that every great had off nights and that if a player is putting up 27/7/7 while playing great defense the problem is probably somewhere else. I mean, Boston fans booed the Cs just 2 games ago (and obviously used the "they didn't put the effort, when they put the effort we win easily" excuse), but they didn't pile on like this.

The thing is: LeBrons performance in the 1st game vs. the Celtics in 2008 was worse than last night one. He followed it by another stinker. Where was this reaction then?

And just out of curiosity, what are you going to say if LeBron wins a title, this season or in the next one?



It's all about expectations. Clevelanders expect their team in the Finals at least. If they lose here it's unacceptable, especially if their star player isn't looking like he gave it his all by driving to the rim when his jumpshot wouldn't fall.

And yes, it's definitely a type of paranoia, the feeling that Bother bad moment was just around the bend.

Celtics fans didn't flip out in Game 3 because Celtics fans aren't expecting a title, I think.

[BadOdor]

I'm not Spanish, kike. Now shut up.

lol garnet.

[mogrovejo]

Well why the fuck would you have an opinion? You're 5,000 miles away across the ocean, what do you know? I don't go on FC Barcelona boards and break their balls because I'm aware I have no clue.

It's NOT that he had an off night, it's that he didn't even give a respectable effort. He mailed it in, in his own building, right in front of his own fans. He was disgraceful.

I said I had no opinion. Now I do. It's called the internet, globalization, all that jazz. Welcome to the 21th century.


That's the difference between last night's game and Game One of the Boston series in 2008. Yeah, he was dreadful in that game- but he was TRYING. It just wasn't his night. That we can accept. But we're a city that applauds effort as much as results, and when the effort isn't there, well... we get a little pissed about it.

That's baloney. Yesterday his shots weren't falling, his teammates were playing even worse than him and they weren't getting any stops who's a killer if you're facing a half-court defense doubling you inside the arc.

Do you think the Celtics in game 3 weren't trying?


He won't. He'll never win an NBA title unless he's carpetbagging a la Gary Payton on the 2006 Heat. He's a loser.

Yeah, yeah, everything about his career screams loser... Anyway, if he wins a title for Cleveland, you'll refuse to commemorate and even acknowledge it?

[mingus]

No, I'll never be a Knicks fan, but I like to see NY basketball succeed..a lot of my friends are Knicks fans, I'd like to see their team do well too..

I'm also a Lebron fan, as everybody can see, so I'd like to see him go somewhere where he will be appreciated..NY would never boo him..

be appreciated? LMAO. fans deserve to boo when they pay to see a shitty product that doesn't come close to meeting expectations - two times. it lights a fire under the team's ass. Lebron has had nothing but love from Cavss fans ever since he's been in the league up to this point.

[JoeTait75]

I said I had no opinion. Now I do. It's called the internet, globalization, all that jazz. Welcome to the 21th century.

Right. Well, since you're so well-versed on the psyche of Cleveland fan, let's talk about 1964. About Jim Chones's foot. About Red Right 88. About the Drive. The Fumble. The Move. Jose Mesa.

You can read, you can think you understand... but you don't understand. You can't.

[HarlemHeat37]

be appreciated? LMAO. fans deserve to boo when they pay to see a shitty product that doesn't come close to meeting expectations - two times. it lights a fire under the team's ass. Lebron has had nothing but love from Cavss fans ever since he's been in the league up to this point.

Do they have the right to insult him by calling him a loser, mentally weak, soft and all of that?..he's given their franchise more success than they could imagine..

[JJ Hickson]

Mogrovejo just has to go against the grain. If the consensus seems to be one direction he'll go the other way. He thinks it makes him look smart or something. It's not even worth arguing with him.

[DPG21920]

Why are CLE fans offing themselves? LOL acting like sports is so important. "You can't understand my pain..."

[Goran Dragic]

I'm not Spanish, kike. Now shut up.

:lmao dirty Spaniard

[Giuseppe]

About the Drive. The Fumble.

Oh, Lord.

[HarlemHeat37]

Why are CLE fans offing themselves? LOL acting like sports is so important. "You can't understand my pain..."

It's even worse because the series isn't over and they're only down 1 game..

How will they feel if Cleveland wins the series?..it would be disgusting..

[JoeTait75]

Why are CLE fans offing themselves? LOL acting like sports is so important. "You can't understand my pain..."

Why would we go on a sports message board to act like sports isn't important?

And yeah, I understand what you're saying. I don't like the mentality either, even though I'm a part of it.

[mogrovejo]

It's all about expectations. Clevelanders expect their team in the Finals at least. If they lose here it's unacceptable, especially if their star player isn't looking like he gave it his all by driving to the rim when his jumpshot wouldn't fall.

And yes, it's definitely a type of paranoia, the feeling that Bother bad moment was just around the bend.

Celtics fans didn't flip out in Game 3 because Celtics fans aren't expecting a title, I think.

It's impossible for LeBron to drive to the rim more if they dont' get stops + his teammates don't make their open shots. It's simply not within his power.

They have to understand the problem was with their expectations and adjust their behaviour accordingly then. They - including Tait - misjudged the amount of talent in their team and were crazily underrating the Cs. Tait (I mean this one, not the broadcaster) was even predicting a sweep, I think. That's crazy, there's no such difference between both teams.

I bet most Celtics fans are now grossly overrating the team. Not here, but the bums over Red's Army and CelticsBlog yeah... If the Cs end up losing the next 2 games I bet they'll blame the lack of effort. Nonsense.

I understand disappointment, but come on, there has to be limits. Especially when it comes to great players like LeBron.

I don't get this: "the feeling that Bother bad moment was just around the bend". Idiomatic expression? Honest question.

[HarlemHeat37]

So if Lebron has a Lebron-esque game tomorrow and the Cavs go on to win the series, is Lebron no longer a "loser" and "mentally weak" like Cav fan says?..

[JJ Hickson]

Why are CLE fans offing themselves? LOL acting like sports is so important. "You can't understand my pain..."


Remember the pain you felt when kids would pick on you for having a pre-pubescent girls voice? It's kind of like that.

[BadOdor]

Remember the pain you felt when kids would pick on you for having a pre-pubescent girls voice? It's kind of like that.

Don't forget for being a midget as well.

lol midgets.

[Goran Dragic]

Wowwww. U mad son? :lol And this guy calls other people racist.


Spaniards are some of the most racist people on the planet:

http://talkcity.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/racist-spanish-basketball-team-photo-3.jpg

[JJ Hickson]

Spaniards are some of the most racist people on the planet:

http://talkcity.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/racist-spanish-basketball-team-photo-3.jpg


I thought he was some sort of eastern European scum tbh

[mingus]

Do they have the right to insult him by calling him a loser, mentally weak, soft and all of that?..he's given their franchise more success than they could imagine..

it's what fans do. and not only cleveland fans are saying, people from everywhere are shocked. of course he brought the franchsie success, but he also brought in higher expectations. fans have paid twice now to see them get blown out at home. this is a team they're supposed to beat, too. many people had them winning in 5 or 6.

[Cane]

Sports fans, like all fans, can be too damn passionate for their own good. Probably every team's forum has asked for their headcoach to be traded even legends like Phil Jackson or that they're a bunch of idiots.

I was there for Game 3 of the Spurs/Suns series and our fans were booing at Parker and Duncan when they were struggling at the line. And then they got especially disgruntled at all the open 3's the team left open...then Dragic got red hot.

Beer + paying hundreds of dollars for tickets + watching your team lose because they just don't look like they're competing = BOOOO's and shitty internet posts. You're supposed to defend your homecourt or sweat bullets trying.

[Giuseppe]

Why would we go on a sports message board to act like sports isn't important?

There'd be no point. We go because it's importance is superficial and we're grateful for that silent fact. It's not job loss, financial ruin, infidelity, nor is it life & death & deciding twixt lumps in the oatmeal and lumps in the breast. You can get up and walk away from it, and it won't follow, unless you choose it to. Cancer will get right up with you, never leave you be and eat ya right down to the bone.

Can't beat this malarkey with a great big stick. It's means absolutely everything, and stands for 0.

[mogrovejo]

Mogrovejo just has to go against the grain. If the consensus seems to be one direction he'll go the other way.

Hence I started a thread by expressing my agreement with an article published in the most popular NBA related blog. Fucking retard...

[DPG21920]

Remember the pain you felt when kids would pick on you for having a pre-pubescent girls voice? It's kind of like that.


Don't forget for being a midget as well.

lol midgets.

Sons, I feel nothing. Shake 'em off.

[mingus]

So if Lebron has a Lebron-esque game tomorrow and the Cavs go on to win the series, is Lebron no longer a "loser" and "mentally weak" like Cav fan says?..

i don't know why your limiting it to Cavs fans. everyone in the NBA is thinking that right now, except probably NY fans, who will make his bed until he signs with them. which is understantable.

[mogrovejo]

Spaniards are some of the most racist people on the planet:

Probably true. I live there and the underlying racism of those bastards is palpable. I always thought it was worse in Italy, but Spain is up there.

[DPG21920]

Why would we go on a sports message board to act like sports isn't important?

And yeah, I understand what you're saying. I don't like the mentality either, even though I'm a part of it.

Getting on a message board is a hobby. Acting like being a CLE sports fan is equivalent to surviving some horrific tragedy is ridiculous.

[mogrovejo]

Another guy in agreement with Abbot's article:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=5952

He makes some good points:


After those games, especially the elimination game in which the Lakers were whooped 131-92, people were saying that Kobe's legacy was "tarnished forever"... Fast forward a year, and he was an NBA champion again, legacy stronger than ever. I know we have a tendency to be shortsighted and reactionary as a culture, but the same people criticizing LeBron James (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html) today have to look no further than Kobe Bryant's (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html) history to see that one bad game against a strong defense is hardly enough to ruin someone's legacy.


Anyway, it galls me to see people drawing conclusions about James' character from a weak game vs. the Boston Celtics. It's not the first time he's had a bad game against this defense. He's not the first future Inner-Circle player these Celtics have shut down and embarrassed in a big spot. And a poor performance against them (with his legacy supposedly on the line) didn't stop Kobe Bryant (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html) from winning a title just one year later. So why are we jumping to the conclusion that LeBron James (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html) is suddenly a weak-willed choker on the basis of last night's game?

[Goran Dragic]

i don't know why your limiting it to Cavs fans. everyone in the NBA is thinking that right now, except probably NY fans, who will make his bed until he signs with them. which is understantable.


It's pathetic the way NY has spread their legs for him and whored themselves out to him.

[Giuseppe]

It's pathetic the way NY has spread their legs for him and whored themselves out to him.

If your mother hadn't done likewise, you wouldn't be here today at O & 41, fartface.

[Goran Dragic]

If your mother hadn't done likewise, you wouldn't be here today at O & 41, fartface.


lol Vietnam
lol fail

[JJ Hickson]

Hence I started a thread by expressing my agreement with an article published in the most popular NBA related blog. Fucking retard...


And that certainly makes it the opinion of the masses doesn't it? :rolleyes Fucking retard.

[mogrovejo]

It's even worse because the series isn't over and they're only down 1 game..

How will they feel if Cleveland wins the series?..it would be disgusting..

What if they win the championship? The comedy potential would be endless.

[bostonguy]

Boston fan should understand better than most the frustration that builds during a Championship drought. They should know very well from their experience with the Red Sox.

Man do I. Years and years of losing to the yanks and coming up short. It was rough. 2004 ALCS was special. I thought we were done even after pulling out those amazing late inning wins in games 4 and 5. I just thought it was a cute little fight they put up. Game 6 totally changed my mindset. Schilling pitching on such a high level and bleeding through his sock on the mound. That really got me fired up. Arod's ball slap out of the hands of Bronson Arroyo convinced me that we were gonna win that series. That sign of desperation from the Yanks showed they were imploding. Game 7 was just beautiful. All those years of being a laughing stock. All those years of being the Yankees bitch. To make that kind of historic comeback was the sweetest type of payback and journey to the world series.

[Giuseppe]

lol Vietnam
lol fail


don't ferget...

lol Maryvale

tee, hee.

[Giuseppe]

Man do I. Years and years of losing to the yanks and coming up short.

Just like years and years of losing to the Celtics and coming up short. Getting close in '84 only to watch Magic struggle throughout & Worthy to fall apart. Coming back across to Boston on that Tuesday nite. Everybody knew it was over before we even left Califlornia for the last time, and it was. That fuck M.L. Carr waving that towel and everybody looking down the line at our bench. It was beyond misery.

But, Magic declared a 100 game grailed quest in that darkest of hours. Where West, Chamberlain, Jabbar, Riley, et al had all retreated inside themselves under the steeled derision of the Boston Celtics, Magic categorically refused, instead he dragged West kicking & screaming from under his bed, slapped Jabbar upside the cocksucker, took the scarred Worthy and the whimpering Scott by the nape of their necks and hauled the whole f'in bunch into the light.

That grailed quest ended on a Sunday afternoon in 1985 on genuine parquet.

Magic Johnson, our greatest Laker.

[mogrovejo]

Adande:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...=lebron-100512 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2010/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=lebron-100512)

The exact moment this national obsession with Cleveland-Boston Game 5 reached a Kardashian level of discussion-to-relevance occurred at 11:23 Wednesday morning, when I received a text message that read "What's ur opinion on lebron?"

The text came from someone who almost never talks to me about sports, save for the occasional inquiry about how to get tickets. It just showed that everyone wanted to know what everyone else thought about LeBron James' passive performance Tuesday night, that suddenly this moment mattered more than oil spills or Supreme Court nominees. Everyone had to know if this was or was not the worst thing ever, if this was going to redefine the way we think of LeBron.

Except, how can it define a career if we don't even know that it has dictated the outcome of the series?

Unless I missed the memo that Game 6 was canceled, there's still at least 48 minutes of basketball to go. Unless I'm misreading the box score, LeBron did have 38 points, 8 rebounds and 7 assists the last time the Cavaliers went to Boston coming off a home loss. That was last Friday. That was before people had written off LeBron as a failure who can't win the big games.

This Game 5 didn't undo Game 5 of the 2007 Eastern Conference finals, when LeBron put together one of the greatest performances in NBA history by scoring 29 of Cleveland's final 30 points to knock off the Detroit Pistons in overtime.

You can say LeBron didn't come through this time. You can't say he never comes through.

In capitalism the definitive word is always spoken by the marketplace, and LeBron's value hasn't diminished one bit. You don't believe the Cavaliers will still offer him the maximum they're allowed to? Do you think there's a single general manager who would cite Tuesday's Game 5 as a reason not to return Danny Ferry's call if the Cavs wanted to set up a sign-and-trade?

We've become trapped in the gulf between those who write checks and those who write columns. You'd have thought LeBron had broken into the Basketball Hall of Fame and defaced the plaques of Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson the way he's been shredded on the Internet following his 15-point, 3-for-14 shooting night in a 32-point loss to the Celtics.

Just keep in mind how quickly opinions change this time of year. That's what happens when you can send comments to Twitter or Daily Dime Live just as soon as a shot is missed. We make things definitive when they're actually still formative.

About three weeks ago, Kobe Bryant was sitting on the Ford Center scorer's table on an off day in Oklahoma City, fielding questions about whether he still had it. He was coming off a 10-for-29 shooting night in the Lakers' first playoff loss, and he'd made more than 40 percent of his shots only once in his previous seven games. Today he's preparing for the Western Conference finals, having scored at least 30 points in each of his past five games while shooting 51 percent, and the only thing that appears finished is the notion that he's finished.

One of the things I've always loved about the NBA playoffs is they afford an opportunity for redemption. If it doesn't happen in the next shot, there's the next game. Or the next series. Or even the next season. This isn't the Olympics with a mandatory four-year wait to make amends.

Superstars can have off games. The two finalists will play some 20-25 games each, providing plenty of time for a clunker or two somewhere along the way. The sign of a legitimate superstar is what happens after the off nights. How does he respond after the praise has turned to criticism, when the belief has turned to doubt?

Through the first three games of the 1993 Eastern Conference finals Michael Jordan was shooting 32 percent. He was coming off 3-for-18 shooting in Game 3, which the Bulls somehow managed to win anyway. But they still trailed 2-1 in the series. In Game 4, despite John Starks playing some of the best defense I've ever seen against him, Jordan went for 54 points, hitting 18 of 30 shots (including 6 of 9 3-pointers).

With LeBron it wasn't just the shooting percentage that got people ready to toss him off Mount Olympus. It was his passive play, his refusal to attack the basket or post up or do anything other than shoot the occasional, wildly erratic jump shot.

That still wasn't as bad as Kobe's shutdown in the second half of a Game 7 in Phoenix three years ago, when he went into sleep mode like an unattended computer and took only three shots. And LeBron's never gone three years without winning a playoff series, as Kobe did from 2005 through 2007.

Those are now viewed as minor deviations on the upward arc of Bryant's career. Since then (or should we say, since the arrival of Pau Gasol), he has won a championship, an MVP award and is four victories away from making his third consecutive trip to the Finals. As much outcry as it caused at the time, the Game 7 in Phoenix will not dominate the career wrap-up, if it even appears at all.

Magic choked at the ends of Games 2, 4 and 7 in the 1984 Finals, yet the balance of his career is so weighted by winning that it's his auto-tuned voice you hear throughout the latest NBA commercial. When it looked as though he wouldn't be able to recover from that 1984 meltdown he came back to win three of the next four championships.

We always think of time as the enemy of athletes, trapping them in a limited window of productivity that doesn't exist in almost any other workplace. We believe the calendar is working against them to drain a bit of their talent every day. Yet sometimes time can be an ally.

LeBron James is only 25 years old. He could be just one-third of the way through his career. Marvin Gaye made 10 albums before he recorded his masterpiece, "What's Going On."

With James it's not just about what he'll do, it's where he'll do it. The thought that Game 5 was his final hometown performance seems odorous, but again we should look to the past. Shaquille O'Neal left Orlando on the tail of a sweep, the third time he'd been broomed out of the playoffs in as many forays into the postseason.

Because James' story is taking place in Cleveland there is added melodrama. Only Cleveland has its own set of letdowns that are so notable they get single-word names. I find it funny that if you search for "The Catch" on Wikipedia looking for Dwight Clark's era-altering touchdown against the Dallas Cowboys, you'll find a multitude of choices for plays bearing the same name. But if you search for "The Shot" or "The Drive" or "The Fumble" you'll go straight to three moments that staggered Cleveland.

Yet James' personal history isn't as tortured. At every stage so far he has surpassed our expectations, starting with the most hyped debut in league history. When we wondered how he would top his 2009 MVP season of 28.4 points, 7.6 rebounds and 7.2 assists, he averaged more than a point and more than an assist better this season, and made more than half of his shots for the first time in his career.

The aftermath of Game 5 has been about "How could he be so bad?" It's the wrong question. With LeBron, it's always about "What will he do next?"

[mogrovejo]

Just like years and years of losing to the Celtics and coming up short. Getting close in '84 only to watch Magic struggle throughout & Worthy to fall apart. Coming back across to Boston on that Tuesday nite. Everybody knew it was over before we even left Califlornia for the last time, and it was. That fuck M.L. Carr waving that towel and everybody looking down the line at our bench. It was beyond misery.

But, Magic declared a 100 game grailed quest in that darkest of hours. Where West, Chamberlain, Jabbar, Riley, et al had all retreated inside themselves under the steeled derision of the Boston Celtics, Magic categorically refused, instead he dragged West kicking & screaming from under his bed, slapped Jabbar upside the cocksucker, took the scarred Worthy and the whimpering Scott by the nape of their necks and hauled the whole f'in bunch into the light.

That grailed quest ended on a Sunday afternoon in 1985 on genuine parquet.

Magic Johnson, our greatest Laker.

IF there was an internet in 84, Magic would have been eaten alive and declared a perennial loser.

[HarlemHeat37]

Great article from Hollinger, basically saying everything the few pro-Lebron guys on this forum have been saying..

[Giuseppe]

Cept Magic and Kobe, unlike James had rung before stepping out the sidedoor.

[ducks]

No, I'll never be a Knicks fan, but I like to see NY basketball succeed..a lot of my friends are Knicks fans, I'd like to see their team do well too..

I'm also a Lebron fan, as everybody can see, so I'd like to see him go somewhere where he will be appreciated..NY would never boo him..

yes they would in a heart beat

[HarlemHeat37]

Why you mad at me, Luva?..

[jdev82]

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/15845/forget-lebron-whats-wrong-with-cleveland-fans
By Henry Abbott

[B
After one bad showing, even while playing injured (http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2010/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-100512), fans are booing on their way to the exits? [/B]James hasn't earned a single mulligan? .

he was the single greatest reason the title favorite cavs lost a swing game at home by 32 in the second round of the playoffs, single-handedly destroying their title hopes. nope, no mulligan there.

[LnGrrrR]

I don't get this: "the feeling that Bother bad moment was just around the bend". Idiomatic expression? Honest question.

Ha! No, just my crappy Iphone translating.

I meant to type "another bad moment". :toast

[LnGrrrR]

There'd be no point. We go because it's importance is superficial and we're grateful for that silent fact. It's not job loss, financial ruin, infidelity, nor is it life & death & deciding twixt lumps in the oatmeal and lumps in the breast. You can get up and walk away from it, and it won't follow, unless you choose it to. Cancer will get right up with you, never leave you be and eat ya right down to the bone.

Can't beat this malarkey with a great big stick. It's means absolutely everything, and stands for 0.

Well said Cully.

We can rage and rant about sports all day long, and because it's sports, it's "safe". It's like arguing about politics, with much less consequences. :lol

[LnGrrrR]

Man do I. Years and years of losing to the yanks and coming up short. It was rough. 2004 ALCS was special. I thought we were done even after pulling out those amazing late inning wins in games 4 and 5. I just thought it was a cute little fight they put up. Game 6 totally changed my mindset. Schilling pitching on such a high level and bleeding through his sock on the mound. That really got me fired up. Arod's ball slap out of the hands of Bronson Arroyo convinced me that we were gonna win that series. That sign of desperation from the Yanks showed they were imploding. Game 7 was just beautiful. All those years of being a laughing stock. All those years of being the Yankees bitch. To make that kind of historic comeback was the sweetest type of payback and journey to the world series.

Game 7 was the only Boston game I've ever seen where I was 100% assured of the outcome before the game.

If the Red Sox had lost that game, I would've never watched them again... I couldn't take it. :lol

[Killakobe81]

No, I'll never be a Knicks fan, but I like to see NY basketball succeed..a lot of my friends are Knicks fans, I'd like to see their team do well too..

I'm also a Lebron fan, as everybody can see, so I'd like to see him go somewhere where he will be appreciated..NY would never boo him..

I would of never guessed ... LOL


I like Lebron game's too (i wont say Ima "Fan")...
I was ready to bear witness during the Finals run ...but then realized ...he was NOT ready yet ...he STILL may not be ready yet but we will see tonight ...

[Giuseppe]

Game 7 was the only Boston game I've ever seen where I was 100% assured of the outcome before the game.

If the Red Sox had lost that game, I would've never watched them again... I couldn't take it. :lol

Admittedly I had no stake in it either way, but, at 0-3, it didn't feel "over." It was weird. And to that point that series seemed to be plodding along, deliberately, almost in a vacuum---Thereafter the last 4 games went extremely fast. Almost surreal. Almost divine.