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CosmicCowboyXXX
08-12-2004, 10:17 AM
There have been complaints about me getting off topic on the thread about the Israeli students getting attacked so I have moved this specific discussion to its own thread.

First, Whottt, I commend you for at least learning something about middle eastern history...many americans could care less. Unfortunately a lot of what you apparently consider to be "fact" is not true...it sucks, but the slanted way world history is taught in American high schools now one has to do additional independent research on their own to really come to an understanding of the issue, especially the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Second, I am not "pro palestinian"...I just understand why they are mad as hell...they have been fucked over badly not only by the Israelis but by other Arabs as well...

Since you have taken the time to learn a little about the situation I will give you some more facts and my personal take on it. This is a brief summary. I know that you will Isolate specific statements I make and try to pick them apart but do a little objective research and you will find that my take is a lot closer to the truth than the "history" you stated as "fact" in the other thread...

I will do this in multiple posts since I am also working and it is kind of long and I don't want to lose anything...

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-12-2004, 10:29 AM
Please remember I am oversimplifying in some cases for the sake of brevity.

This whole Israel thing basically started in 1800's...

The concept of "repopulating" the historical Jewish homeland started gaining popularity in the late 1800's...There were basically two trains of thought among Jewish thinkers and scholars...one faction (the Diaspora) thought that Jews as a religion should integrate themselves into other societies and perpetuate their religion and their beliefs at a personal level as other religions did. The other faction (which soon came to be known as Zionists) though that Jews should move back to Palestine, buy land, and repopulate the area and eventually gain control of the historical homeland that way...and ultimately create a Jewish state.

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-12-2004, 10:39 AM
The area then known as Palestine was occupied at the time by people that for the sake of this discussion i will call "palestinians" in many cases the occupiers thought they owned the land but didn't. Here is a couple of quotes.

“[The Ottoman Land Code of 1858] required the registration in the name of individual owners of agricultural land, most of which had never previously been registered and which had formerly been treated according to traditional forms of land tenure, in the hill areas of Palestine generally masha’a, or communal usufruct. The new law meant that for the first time a peasant could be deprived not of title to his land, which he had rarely held before, but rather of the right to live on it, cultivate it and pass it on to his heirs, which had formerly been inalienable...Under the provisions of the 1858 law, communal rights of tenure were often ignored...Instead, members of the upper classes, adept at manipulating or circumventing the legal process, registered large areas of land as theirs...The fellahin [peasants] naturally considered the land to be theirs, and often discovered that they had ceased to be the legal owners only when the land was sold to Jewish settlers by an absentee landlord...Not only was the land being purchased; its Arab cultivators were being dispossessed and replaced by foreigners who had overt political objectives in Palestine.” Rashid Khalidi, “Blaming The Victims,” ed. Said and Hitchens“

The aim of the [Jewish National] Fund was ‘to redeem the land of Palestine as the inalienable possession of the Jewish people.’...As early as 1891, Zionist leader Ahad Ha’am wrote that the Arabs “understood very well what we were doing and what we were aiming at’...[Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, stated] ‘We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly’...At various locations in northern Palestine Arab farmers refused to move from land the Fund purchased from absentee owners, and the Turkish authorities, at the Fund’s request, evicted them...The indigenous Jews of Palestine also reacted negatively to Zionism. They did not see the need for a Jewish state in Palestine and did not want to exacerbate relations with the Arabs.” John Quigley, “Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice.”


Thus the first major porking of the "Palestinians" was done by their own people.

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-12-2004, 10:53 AM
The Zionists in Europe and the US were raising funds to purchase land in Palestine from these absentee Arab landlords. With the unrest in what was then Russia many jews fleeing persecution were transported to Palestine by the zionists to occupy this land.

OK...thats the background.


now for the politics.

remember, I am not anti-jew or anti-Israel...you just have to understand how things work. If you don't believe it happened this way then research it yourself.

With what we now know as World War I approaching, Great Britain found itself in a little quandary...it was gonna cost bazillions of dollars to go to war with Germany and they didn't have it.

In an era before deficit financing and established bond markets there was a much closer relationship between countries and private banks. In Europe at the time THE banking badboys were the Rothschilds.

Lord Rothschild was a committed Zionist.

The quid quo pro for financing WWI was British support for a Jewish homeland.

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-12-2004, 11:04 AM
As you know, we won WWI so it was time to pay up.

At the Paris Peace Conference the name "Palestine" was applied to a clearly defined piece of territory - the area which today comprises Israel and Jordan. It was agreed that "Palestine" was to become a League of Nations Mandate, entrusted to Great Britain.

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/IMAGES/MANDATE.GIF

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-12-2004, 11:07 AM
Great Britain then issued what is now known as the Balfour Declaration. Here it is verbatim:


November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,

Arthur James Balfour

it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine

hmmmm...now British hands were "clean" and they could look the other way while Palestinians were uprooted from their homes...

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-12-2004, 11:21 AM
well...it wasn't long till the British had a bunch of pissed off Palestinians on their hands...

trying to limit the damage, the British decided to partition the region and thus limit the spread of the "Jewish Homeland" to the area that is Israel today...

in July 1922, the British divided Palestine into two administrative districts. Jews would be permitted only in the western district. To the east, in what became known as "Transjordan", the British installed a Hashemite ruler named Abdullah, who had been expelled from the Arabian peninsula


“In 1936-9, the Palestinian Arabs attempted a nationalist revolt... David Ben-Gurion, eminently a realist, recognized its nature. In internal discussion, he noted that ‘in our political argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us,’ but he urged, ‘let us not ignore the truth among ourselves.’ The truth was that ‘politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside’... The revolt was crushed by the British, with considerable brutality.” Noam Chomsky, “The Fateful Triangle.”



in 1946 the division became official with the British granting TransJordan its independence. What is now Israel was still called Palestine and a British protectorate.

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/IMAGES/BPART.GIF

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-12-2004, 11:46 AM
In 1940, the British restricted Jewish property buying to specific zones in Palestine in an attempt to placate the palestinian population but much illegal buying continued in the prohibited zones.

By 1946 the Zionists had still only purchased 6% of Palestine, but the Zionists controlled the political process and the resident Palestinians were disenfranchised. The US became a leading player in trying to find a solution...mainly because of political pressure in the US...


I am sorry gentlemen, but I have to answer to hundreds of thousands who are anxious for the success of Zionism. I do not have hundreds of thousands of Arabs among my constituents.” President Harry Truman

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Maps/New/Map5_OwnerShip.gif

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-12-2004, 11:49 AM
sooo...with a little US armtwisting the US got the UN to vote on and approve the partitioning of the British protectorate into a Jewish Homeland section and a Palestinian section...all the Arab countries voted against it but it passed anyway. The areas that illegal buying had occured were included in the new Jewish Homeland section.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Maps/New/Map_UNPartition1947.gif


“Arab rejection was...based on the fact that, while the population of the Jewish state was to be [only half] Jewish with the Jews owning less than 10% of the Jewish state land area, the Jews were to be established as the ruling body — a settlement which no self-respecting people would accept without protest, to say the least...The action of the United Nations conflicted with the basic principles for which the world organization was established, namely, to uphold the right of all peoples to self-determination. By denying the Palestine Arabs, who formed the two-thirds majority of the country, the right to decide for themselves, the United Nations had violated its own charter.” Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”

Blood Dong
08-12-2004, 12:02 PM
maybe KB homes or someone can just go over there and build neigborhoods, that would make me happy

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-12-2004, 12:13 PM
In December 1947, the British announced that they would withdraw from Palestine by May 15, 1948. Palestinians in Jerusalem and Jaffa called a general strike against the partition. Fighting broke out in Jerusalem’s streets almost immediately...Violent incidents mushroomed into all-out war...


“Before the end of the mandate and, therefore before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948...In contrast, the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the partition resolution.” British author, Henry Cattan, “Palestine, The Arabs and Israel.”


“Menahem Begin, the Leader of the Irgun, tells how ‘in Jerusalem, as elsewhere, we were the first to pass from the defensive to the offensive...Arabs began to flee in terror...Hagana was carrying out successful attacks on other fronts, while all the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through Haifa like a knife through butter’...The Israelis now allege that the Palestine war began with the entry of the Arab armies into Palestine after 15 May 1948. But that was the second phase of the war; they overlook the massacres, expulsions and dispossessions which took place prior to that date and which necessitated Arab states’ intervention.” Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”

The Deir Yassin massacre really polarized countries around the world about Israel...


“For the entire day of April 9, 1948, Irgun and LEHI soldiers carried out the slaughter in a cold and premeditated fashion...The attackers ‘lined men, women and children up against the walls and shot them,’...The ruthlessness of the attack on Deir Yassin shocked Jewish and world opinion alike, drove fear and panic into the Arab population, and led to the flight of unarmed civilians from their homes all over the country.” Israeli author, Simha Flapan, “The Birth of Israel.”


“By 1948, the Jew was not only able to ‘defend himself’ but to commit massive atrocities as well. Indeed, according to the former director of the Israeli army archives, ‘in almost every village occupied by us during the War of Independence, acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as murders, massacres, and rapes’...Uri Milstein, the authoritative Israeli military historian of the 1948 war, goes one step further, maintaining that ‘every skirmish ended in a massacre of Arabs.’” Norman Finkelstein, “Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict.”


During May [1948] ideas about how to consolidate and give permanence to the Palestinian exile began to crystallize, and the destruction of villages was immediately perceived as a primary means of achieving this aim...[Even earlier,] On 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha... The village was destroyed that night... Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on 20 April... Abu Zureiq was completely demolished... Al Mansi and An Naghnaghiya, to the southeast, were also leveled. . .By mid-1949, the majority of [the 350 depopulated Arab villages] were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable.” Benny Morris, “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949.


“We came to this country which was already populated by Arabs, and we are establishing a Hebrew, that is a Jewish, state here...Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages...There is not a single community in the country that did not have a former Arab population.” Israeli leader, Moshe Dayan, quoted in Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi’s “Original Sins.”

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-12-2004, 01:08 PM
The new state of Israel WAS attacked by surrounding countries but the attacks were uncoordinated and the armies were ill equipped. The only real organized army in the region was King Abdulla's Arab Legion and he took a pass and didn't participate...The remaining arab armys were no match for the Israeli army which was well organized and equipped with modern weapons...Even Israeli historians now concede that the survival of the new state was never in doubt and the myth of Israel fighting off the "overwhelming hordes" from 5 nations is just that..a myth...virtually all of the fighting was in the "arab" section of the Palestinian mandate and was just used as an excuse by the Israelis to continue their ethnic cleansing. 700,000 Palestinians were expelled in the ethnic cleansing of 1948.


“That Ben-Gurion’s ultimate aim was to evacuate as much of the Arab population as possible from the Jewish state can hardly be doubted, if only from the variety of means he employed to achieve his purpose...most decisively, the destruction of whole villages and the eviction of their inhabitants...even [if] they had not participated in the war and had stayed in Israel hoping to live in peace and equality, as promised in the Declaration of Independence.” Israeli author, Simha Flapan, “The Birth of Israel.”

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-12-2004, 01:16 PM
By the winter of 1949 there were 750,000 refugees living in caves, abandoned buildings, or in hastily constructed relief camps. Many of the starving were only miles away from their own vegetable gardens and orchards in occupied Palestine — the new state of Israel...At the end of 1949 the United Nations finally acted. It set up the United Nations Relief and Works Administration (UNRWA) to take over sixty refugee camps from voluntary agencies. It managed to keep people alive, but only barely.

I agree that the surrounding Arab countries should have integrated these Palestinians into their societies instead of using them as political pawns but it didn't happen...but it is no surprise to me that the Israelis and the United States are universally despised by the Palestinians...

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-12-2004, 01:24 PM
Don't believe me? How about these guys?



"My friend, take care. When you recognize the concept of 'Palestine', you demolish your right to live in Ein Hahoresh. If this is Palestine and not the Land of Israel, then you are conquerors and not tillers of the land. You are invaders. If this is Palestine, then it belongs to a people who have lived here before you came. Only if it is the Land of Israel do you have a right to live in Ein Hahoresh and in Deganiyah B. If it is not your country, your fatherland, the country of your ancestors and of your sons, then what are you doing here? You came to another people's homeland, as they claim, you expelled them and you have taken their land." Menahem Begin, quoted in Noam Chomsky's "Peace in the Middle East?"


"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs, We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?" David Ben-Gurion, quoted in "The Jewish Paradox" by Nathan Goldman, former president of the World Jewish Congress.



"Before (the Palestinians) very eyes we are possessing the land and the villages where they, and their ancestors, have lived...We are the generation of colonizers, and without the steel helmet and the gun barrel we cannot plant a tree and build a home." Israeli leader Moshe Dayan, quoted in Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi, "Original Sins: Reflections on the History of Zionism and Israel"


"The phenomenon that has prevailed among us for years is that of insensitivity to acts of wrong...[Consequently,] public opinion, the army, the police's...conclusion was that Arab blood can be freely shed. And then came the amnesty for those [convicted of the massacre] at Kafr Qasim, and some conclusions could be drawn again, and I could go on like this...It must make the State appear in the eyes of the world as a savage state that does not recognize the principles of justice as they have been established and accepted by contemporary society." Israel's second prime minister, Moshe Sharett, in 1961, quoted in Livia Rokach, Israel's Sacred Terrorism."

So anyway...that is how the state of Israel came to be...

and people wonder why the Palestinians are pissed?

*whew* I'm done...

tlongII
08-12-2004, 01:33 PM
TMI!

Jimcs50
08-12-2004, 02:39 PM
CC, don't confuse Whottt with facts.

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-12-2004, 04:36 PM
hmmmm...I sense a very passionate indifference to this topic in here...:lol

Shelly
08-12-2004, 05:10 PM
CC, I'd read all your posts, but I'm too lazy so I'll take your word for it.

So, um...what CC said!

MannyIsGod
08-12-2004, 05:34 PM
And thats only the historical context.

The actual palestian refugees living in the West Bank and in Gaza have such an incredibly shitty quality of life. They are easily exploited by extremist groups into wasting their lives through terrorist attacks.

Of nobody wants the conditions that Isreal has created in the occupied lands to be considered justification at for these activities, but the fact of the matter is that they have put into place a very fertile breeding ground for terrorism.

Once again, there is a documentary tonight on HBO of all channels, called Death In Gaza which should give you a different perspective on the situatino than what you usually see presented in media.

Whottt
08-12-2004, 05:51 PM
LMAO.

You and Jim keep sucking yourself off on me taking an interest in history CC.

I have a degree in cultural anthropology, and I expect I have studied the history of the mideast with a far less biased view than you yourself...and probably the histories of South and Central America and Africa as well. And pooh pooh on Ameircan history keeping all you want but it's still more accurate than punching it up on an internet search engine.

Funny thing about written history, you can always find something to back up most points you want to make, depending on where you are getting your information from.

I'll get into this debate with you, taking the side that the Israelies have the more rhighteous cause...to an extent... but first I want to find a point at which we agree...

And just for kicks I'd like to see if Manny and Jim agree on this as well.

Are we all in agreement on the fact that what is now called Jordan and what is now called Israel are located in what has historically been known as the reigon of Palestine?

I'll wait to see who agrees with that before going on.

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-12-2004, 06:12 PM
I will agree that that region was given the name Palestine when it was assigned as a British Protectorate after WWI.

Where I won't agree to is that Israel has any right to what is now known as Jordan.

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-12-2004, 06:14 PM
cultural anthropology huh?

dang!

I'll bet you have more education than your manager there at McDonalds...:p

Whottt
08-12-2004, 06:16 PM
Ok that's good enough. I am not asking you to agree that Israel has a right to what is now known as Jordan.

I'd still like to see if the peanut gallery..er I mean Jim and Manny. Especially Jim...since he gets so worked up over this argument he likes to wish for someones death...

MannyIsGod
08-12-2004, 06:19 PM
Sure.

Whottt
08-12-2004, 06:19 PM
Hey it's not going to make me a millionaire or anything but it gives me one hell of an accurate world/historical view that isn't obscured by political bullshit.

Yeah Cultural Anthroplogy and I minored in Astronomy.

You could say I have an interest in where we came from and where we are going.

MannyIsGod
08-12-2004, 06:23 PM
I belive my gf's minor is cultural anthro, but I'm not sure.

MannyIsGod
08-12-2004, 06:23 PM
btw, In a few semesters I'll have my bach in polisci.

Whottt
08-12-2004, 06:25 PM
Yeah that was one of the better things about studying antropology..it's like a 5-1 female to male ratio.

Whottt
08-12-2004, 06:48 PM
Ok since Jim disappeared(inspite of making several posts after my callout)...

Ok since we all agree that Israel and Jordan are located in what was referred to as Palestine I have a few questions for you...

1.Why is it that Jews from all over the world are welcomed to Israel, the smallest country in the Middle East, with open arms and given a chance at making a life, with a relatively high standard of living, for themselves?

2. Why are the Palestinians forced to live in squalor with little or no aid(other than an endless supply of funds and brainwashing for them kill themsevles as long as they take a few jews with them) from the Arab countries, mainly Jordan and Egypt?

3.In short...why do the Palestinians live, and continue to live in a shithole environment of "opression" and "ethnic cleansing"?

Are they forced to live under those conditions, in those locations, or do they choose to do so?

4.Why wasn't the PLO crying for a Palestinian homeland when Gaza and West Bank were occupied by Egypt and Jordan?

In fact the PLO was formed 3 years before Israel took those lands in 67.

Why? Who founded the PLO? What was it's purpose? and most importantly...

5.Why aren't the Palestinians trying to get land from Jordan since it was also in the region once known as Palestine?

Jimcs50
08-12-2004, 06:50 PM
Anthropology and Astromony degree???? Man, I bet you are raking in the dough. :p

J/K, I liked my Anthropology class and aced it too.

Whottt
08-12-2004, 06:56 PM
Oh and forgot


6.Since there just has to be a Palestinian homeland because all the poor Palestinians have no place to live..

Why didn't Jordan want to form a Palestinian homeland? Why does Jordan call itself Jordan and not Palestine since they are so in tune with the plight of the Palestinians, in fact they are the Palestinians?

Why didn't they call their country Palestine? I mean that's where theyt are located right? They are Arabs indigenous to that area right?

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-12-2004, 07:00 PM
sorry but a liberal arts degree and political bullshit are inextricably combined. You can't get one without the other. You actually think those courses you took in college weren't influenced by the political preferences of the professors? The specific course curriculum? The textbooks chosen? The subject the prof chose to stress? Damn...you are more naive than I thought.

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-12-2004, 07:20 PM
5.Why aren't the Palestinians trying to get land from Jordan since it was also in the region once known as Palestine?

The biblical Palestine you are referring to also included Syria and part of the Sinai..."ownership" of these lands have changed hands many times over the years with it most recently (pre WW1) being ruled by the Turks. The Turks got hosed by the Allies after WW1 and all their lands confiscated because the picked the Axis side in the big one. Shit happpens. Either way, the current residents of Jordan, Syria, and Egypt don't consider themselves Palestinians. The people that are now known as "Palestinians" could be better called "Former Israel Occupants" because they are the people whose land, businesses, homes, and property were confiscated by the Zionists...

You are trying to confuse the Biblical Palestinian with the modern Palestinian...they are not the same.

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-12-2004, 07:36 PM
4.Why wasn't the PLO crying for a Palestinian homeland when Gaza and West Bank were occupied by Egypt and Jordan?

In fact the PLO was formed 3 years before Israel took those lands in 67.

Why? Who founded the PLO? What was it's purpose? and most importantly...

As far as I am concerned Arrafat and the PLO don't have the best interests of the Palestinians at heart any more than Jesse Jackson has the best interests of Black Americans at heart...

They both have good gigs, make lots of money and get lots of pussy...thay ain't given that shit up for nuthin. In fact, the PLO's blatant avarice and self dealing is what gave rise to the new power of the Hezbolla.

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-12-2004, 07:45 PM
2. Why are the Palestinians forced to live in squalor with little or no aid(other than an endless supply of funds and brainwashing for them kill themsevles as long as they take a few jews with them) from the Arab countries, mainly Jordan and Egypt?

3.In short...why do the Palestinians live, and continue to live in a shithole environment of "opression" and "ethnic cleansing"?

Are they forced to live under those conditions, in those locations, or do they choose to do so?

1) lack of education...what schools they have in the camps are funded and run by the Hezbolla

2) pure unadulterated hate for the Israelis

3) political expediency by the surrounding countries

4) a pure belief that they have been wronged and a hope that by resistance the wrong will be overturned.

5) indoctrination from birth about regaining their homeland

7) politics and religion mixed

Whottt
08-12-2004, 08:29 PM
5.Why aren't the Palestinians trying to get land from Jordan since it was also in the region once known as Palestine?

The biblical Palestine you are referring to also included Syria and part of the Sinai..."ownership" of these lands have changed hands many times over the years with it most recently (pre WW1) being ruled by the Turks. The Turks got hosed by the Allies after WW1 and all their lands confiscated because the picked the Axis side in the big one. Shit happpens. Either way, the current residents of Jordan, Syria, and Egypt don't consider themselves Palestinians. The people that are now known as "Palestinians" could be better called "Former Israel Occupants" because they are the people whose land, businesses, homes, and property were confiscated by the Zionists...

You are trying to confuse the Biblical Palestinian with the modern Palestinian...they are not the same.

No, I'm not trying to confuse the 2. In fact it was called Palestine after WW1.

You agreed with this point at the start of the debate...and I quote:


I will agree that that region was given the name Palestine when it was assigned as a British Protectorate after WWI.

You'd make a damn fine Palestinian, I tell you.

And BTW, the Palestinians on the West Bank are Jordanians. It was part of Jordan and it's citizens were Jordanians prior to 1967.

Whottt
08-12-2004, 08:36 PM
As far as I am concerned Arrafat and the PLO don't have the best interests of the Palestinians at heart any more than Jesse Jackson has the best interests of Black Americans at heart...

They both have good gigs, make lots of money and get lots of pussy...thay ain't given that shit up for nuthin. In fact, the PLO's blatant avarice and self dealing is what gave rise to the new power of the Hezbolla.

I'll agree with that...Arrafat could give two shits about his people, he is there to get rid of the jews. That is his goal, that was why he helped form the PLO prior to there even being any land disputes with Israel.

Which is why the Palestinian movement is fucked up in the first place.

When they most recently made peace and Israel was giving him money for peace he was pocketing it instead of using it to improve the living conditions in Gaza and West Bank.

The people were miserable, their quality of life did not improve, it was just like it was before(actually worse) and like that of every other Arab country..Arafat blamed the jews for it..like every leader in the middle east does.

Why would Israel, give him money, and then try to opress the Palestinians to a state of war?

You think the Jews give money away just for the hell of it? They wanted fucking peace.

Whottt
08-12-2004, 08:41 PM
1) lack of education...what schools they have in the camps are funded and run by the Hezbolla

And why is that the jews problem? Why don't the Arab countries help them to get an education? The jews help other jews to do it. Why don't Arabs do the same for other Arabs?


2) pure unadulterated hate for the Israelis



3) political expediency by the surrounding countries

4) a pure belief that they have been wronged and a hope that by resistance the wrong will be overturned.

5) indoctrination from birth about regaining their homeland

7) politics and religion mixed

The sound more like you are pro Israeli so I don't really know what to say to them.

Other than yeah the Palestinians are fucked over by the other Arab countries and their leaders.

One other question...
7.Which way do you think you would have a better chance of survival...

Being a jew in a Palestinian refugee camp...or being a Palestinian in Israel?

If you had to choose 1 which would you pick?

CrazyOne
08-12-2004, 08:57 PM
Thank you, CC... I feel edjamacated now...

adonis50
08-13-2004, 08:52 AM
1
.Why is it that Jews from all over the world are welcomed to Israel, the smallest country in the Middle East, with open arms and given a chance at making a life, with a relatively high standard of living, for themselves? The majority of the Jews that are “welcomed” in Israel are poor Eastern Europeans (mainly from former USSR.) Israel offers them opportunities that their countries cannot fulfill. Back in the 70s, Romanian dictator Cheausescu was selling alleged Romanian Jews $500 a head to the Israeli government (Red Horizons, gen. Pacepa.)

2.
Why are the Palestinians forced to live in squalor with little or no aid(other than an endless supply of funds and brainwashing for them kill themsevles as long as they take a few jews with them) from the Arab countries, mainly Jordan and Egypt?Palestinian refugees are being exploited for political purposes by other Arab countries. Jordan should absorb them since 85% of its population is comprised by Palestinians, but instead refuses leaving them to live under harsh conditions.

3.
In short...why do the Palestinians live, and continue to live in a shithole environment of "opression" and "ethnic cleansing"?
They have no other choice, they are not even welcomed in Egypt, or Jordan.

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-13-2004, 09:47 AM
No, I'm not trying to confuse the 2. In fact it was called Palestine after WW1.

You agreed with this point at the start of the debate...and I quote:


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will agree that that region was given the name Palestine when it was assigned as a British Protectorate after WWI.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You'd make a damn fine Palestinian, I tell you.

You are again deliberately trying to confuse the issue.

I said:


You are trying to confuse the Biblical Palestinian with the modern Palestinian...they are not the same.

Palestine refers to the dirt.

Palestinian refers to the people occupying the dirt.

The region was renamed Palestine by a bunch of gringos sitting around a table in Paris. The occupants of what became known as Jordan only lived on the dirt called "Palestine" by a bunch of gringos in Paris for 6 years before its name was changed to Trans-Jordan. I seriously doubt the occupants ever considered themselves Palestinians.

Blood Dong
08-13-2004, 10:03 AM
my God people, SAVE IT!!!!!!!!!!

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-13-2004, 10:30 AM
save what?

Blood Dong
08-13-2004, 10:40 AM
this crazy political rant.........move on

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-13-2004, 10:44 AM
you are obviously young so I will give you some advice.

your brain and your dick have one thing in common.

you don't wear them out by using them every day.

Blood Dong
08-13-2004, 10:46 AM
tell me why I should care about this issue..........

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-13-2004, 10:49 AM
uhhh...

9/11?

Homeland security?

Iraq?

November 2?


you don't think any of them are related to this issue?

MannyIsGod
08-13-2004, 11:03 AM
i shouldn't tell you that you have to care about this issue. if you're too stupid to realize the implications that this situation has on america, then i'd rather you just stay the hell out of the thread.



1.Why is it that Jews from all over the world are welcomed to Israel, the smallest country in the Middle East, with open arms and given a chance at making a life, with a relatively high standard of living, for themselves?

i don't see the relevance of this question, but basicaly because isreal is a jewish state that has decided to allow jews to immigrate.


2. Why are the Palestinians forced to live in squalor with little or no aid(other than an endless supply of funds and brainwashing for them kill themsevles as long as they take a few jews with them) from the Arab countries, mainly Jordan and Egypt?

because as we've mentoined above, nobody actually fights for them, they are just used as political pawns.

however, neither jordan nor egypt is in a position to simply intergrate more refugees into their population. jordan already has more than it can handle.


3.In short...why do the Palestinians live, and continue to live in a shithole environment of "opression" and "ethnic cleansing"?

Are they forced to live under those conditions, in those locations, or do they choose to do so?

when it's hard enough to make it from one slum to another in the occupied terrortories, how the hell do you expect them to make it anywhere else/ they can't exactly cross a border into one of the other countries. not that they should, they have a right to the land they are on.


4.Why wasn't the PLO crying for a Palestinian homeland when Gaza and West Bank were occupied by Egypt and Jordan?

In fact the PLO was formed 3 years before Israel took those lands in 67.

Why? Who founded the PLO? What was it's purpose? and most importantly...

i'll answer this with a question of my own. do you think those mountain men militias have our best interests at heart/


5.Why aren't the Palestinians trying to get land from Jordan since it was also in the region once known as Palestine?

this is semantics based on verbage. the palestinians want the occupied lands that the jews have controlled since 1967, illegally.

this is such a retarded arguement. if i move into your house and kick you out, why don'tyou go ask somebody else with the same surname for their house because you have the same surname.

Blood Dong
08-13-2004, 11:04 AM
like I said in a post earlier in this thread..........I have too much going on in my life to worry about that. My wife, daughter, our health, motgage, bills, etc... I'm not gonna stop my life becuase theres knucklheads in another country that wanna hurt us. THeres alot of poeple here that can do the same. I'm not saying I'm oblivious to it all, BUT someone gave me some real good advice once. Don't live in the past because you can't change it, and don't live in the future becuase you cant predict it. Sorry buddy, thats' my take

MannyIsGod
08-13-2004, 11:07 AM
i understand. you're apathetic like most americans. and instead of reading a thread that might help you become a tad bit more informed, you'd rather come in and tell us to 'chill out'.

for someone who is overwhelmed with things taking up his time, you find a lot of time to make meaningless posts.

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-13-2004, 11:14 AM
like I said in a post earlier in this thread..........I have too much going on in my life to worry about that. My wife, daughter, our health, motgage, bills, etc... I'm not gonna stop my life becuase theres knucklheads in another country that wanna hurt us. THeres alot of poeple here that can do the same. I'm not saying I'm oblivious to it all, BUT someone gave me some real good advice once. Don't live in the past because you can't change it, and don't live in the future becuase you cant predict it. Sorry buddy, thats' my take

sooo....do you vote?

you do know we theoretically vote to elect people to represent us don't you?

Blood Dong
08-13-2004, 11:27 AM
listen, calling me stupid, what did that do for ya? And just because I don't agree with you in part or whole, does that mean I'm uninformed? NO!! You asked all theses questions, WHy this? Why that? WHy WHy WHy!! Well, I don't know, I'm more concerned with problems here where we live. And I've got a freakin laundry list of questions why things are the way they are here. And Yes I do vote, I even worked on a campaign for a state rep in Arlington, TX I'm sorry if you took the "chill out" comment the wrong way. Just seems a little excessive to me, when there is so much more going on here. Call me selfish, but I live here, not there.

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-13-2004, 11:46 AM
I didn't see anyone call you stupid...just apathetic.

and Whottt was the one asking all the questions.

whatever.

If you aren't interested in the subject then don't open the thread.

tlongII
08-13-2004, 12:58 PM
So far I am going to have to call this debate a draw. The Palestinians have a right to be pissed off, but collectively they behave like idiots as well.

Blood Dong
08-13-2004, 04:17 PM
If you aren't interested in the subject then don't open the thread


So now just cast me a side like a Palestinian?
Just kidding.....agree to disagree..............good game

Whottt
08-15-2004, 02:58 PM
adonis those were very nice answers.

I'm going to reply to some of these posts but I need to wait until I get a little bit of freetime.

Whottt
08-20-2004, 11:11 AM
Basically the Palestinians are paying the price for failed attempts to invade Israel on the part of Egypt and Jordan.

In fact the PLO originally wanted to overthrow the Israel goverment and unite Jordan with all the occupied territory as the country of Paletstine. So it was in fact a Jordanian movement. It was backed by the Arab league and the Soviet Union who wanted to be rid of pro west Israel.

The occupied territories also just happen to be stratgegic points that severely hamper Israel's ability to defend itself from attacks by Jordan and Syria. The occupied territories were launch points for past attacks on Israel.

Jordan expelled the entire membership of the PLO from Jordan and they were also driven out of Lebanon.

So no, it's not just a case of a bunch of homeless people..it's a bunch of insane fuckos that even the Arab countries don't want in their countries...and you guys want the people they have sworn to destroy to welcome them with open arms.

Israel might have been more willing to let go of the occupied territories if the Palestinians didn't keep electing people that have sworn to eradicate Israel, as their leaders.

You guys basically want Israel to sit there and get punched in the face without doing anything to defend itself...

When I see you guys go and allow 5-7 men to gang up on you, throw punches at your face, and see you make no attempt to defend yourself and see you smile and give them a hug after they have done so......then I will agree with the point you are making.

But as it stands...the Palestinian's are a bunch of crazy fucks lead by a bunch of even crazier fucks...Is Irael excessivly brutal towards civilians in defending itself or retaliating against suicide bombers? Perhaps...

At worst, they are no worse than the Palestinian terrorists who also target civillians and unlike the Israelis hide amongst their own civiliians. I'll take the side of the sane people in this conflict...not the group that was too insane for even a despotic Arab country. It's not about politics...it's about opression, babarianism and cruelty VS social advancement.

Advancement will win...it always does..regardless of the right or wrong of it.

If only Arafat had been accepted to UT the PLO might never have taken the direction it took...but it did and they now speak for the Palestinians, more or less...until that situation changes I side with Israel...


By the way...my solution to this problem...let it be known that anyone found plotting terrorist activities will be forced to marry a female water polo player...gurantee you that the mideast will enter a period of unparallelled peace. Some things are worse than death.

CrazyOne
08-20-2004, 03:05 PM
Dang... I think I would go for the nucleur option before that last suggestion, Whott... some things are worse than death!

CosmicCowboyXXX
08-20-2004, 03:25 PM
OMFG!!!!!

I hadn't paid attention to US womens water polo till Whottt mentioned his monkey spanking material...

Obviously the US olympic committee realized they had an esthetic problem with these girls. They took their team photo in....


BATHROBES!!!!......SERIOUSLY!!!!!

http://www.merced.cc.ca.us/athletics/womens/waterpolo/images/team_photo1_450px.jpg