Are the Magic better without Dwight Howard?

[phxspurfan]

Discuss, fire away, whatever.


Magic will not win it all. Howard is and always will be too foul prone to win anything. If he somehow got hurt the Magic could win it all though.
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4322033#post4322033

It may even be a little late to start this thread seeing as how they've already lost Game 1 and HCA, but I wanted to re-hash my original opinion (that some laughed at). It was a serious opinion, if not formulated in the well thought out way.

The Magic seem to play with more energy and run better without D12. I saw it when they played the Spurs during the regular season. D12 went to the bench with foul trouble and the Spurs had no answers for their replacement lineup's skill and athleticism. Not to mention better free throw shooting so we couldn't just hack at Howard.


Here are some opinions I found via the website Google to show that I was not completely original on this thought:

s3C-aferYS8
(I haven't watched this before, just did the search and put it up for discussion)

Magic Player: We’re Better Without Dwight Howard
http://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/orlando-magic-better-without-dwight-howard/7035

excerpt:

“They’re actually better without Dwight Howard,” Sixers guard Andre Miller said. “One of their players told me that they were better without Dwight Howard. They said the ball moves quicker. They’re not standing around a lot.”

[Ghazi]

spoken like a western conference fan who doesnt know anything about defense :td

[HarlemHeat37]

Howard was BY FAR their leader in adjusted plus/minus this season, despite having a quality backup like Gortat(since the 2 of them rarely play together, it does matter even more), they suffered without him on the floor..

Defensively, there obviously isn't much that has to be said..

The fact that his +/- is so high despite having a very good backup in Gortat speaks volumes on his value to their team..not many guys are more valuable to their teams..

[phxspurfan]

spoken like a western conference fan who doesnt know anything about defense :td

All Howard does is block shots. His post defense is average. He's like Ben Wallace with more length. In fact if you took the DPOY Camby (of a couple years ago) and put him on this year's Magic squad, they'd be better off than they are now.

[BUMP]

Howard like any superstar has his weaknesses but there's no way in hell that they are better without him. He makes them dynamic, he's always a presence you have to deal with inside and know where he's at all times.

Without Howard they're like a poor man's Warriors of 07

[phxspurfan]

Howard was BY FAR their leader in adjusted plus/minus this season, despite having a quality backup like Gortat(since the 2 of them rarely play together, it does matter even more), they suffered without him on the floor..

Defensively, there obviously isn't much that has to be said..

The fact that his +/- is so high despite having a very good backup in Gortat speaks volumes on his value to their team..not many guys are more valuable to their teams..

Right, and that's probably because he protects the paint and rebounds. Those are also very replaceable skill sets. I still contend that he brings less to the table than other dominant big men who rebound and block shots such as TD, Pau and Marc Gasol, Bynum, KG and even Big Z, Okur and Amare.

The difference is that if any of those other, truly elite big men were to join the Magic and replace D12, that squad would be tons better.

D12 relies on athleticism to get his stats, is clumsy and foul prone, and doesn't have the IQ or instincts to carry any team to any championship.

[BUMP]

Right, and that's probably because he protects the paint and rebounds. Those are also very replaceable skill sets. I still contend that he brings less to the table than other dominant big men who rebound and block shots such as TD, Pau and Marc Gasol, Bynum, KG and even Big Z, Okur and Amare.

The difference is that if any of those other, truly elite big men were to join the Magic and replace D12, that squad would be tons better.

D12 relies on athleticism to get his stats, is clumsy and foul prone, and doesn't have the IQ or instincts to carry any team to any championship.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[phxspurfan]

Right, and that's probably because he protects the paint and rebounds. Those are also very replaceable skill sets. I still contend that he brings less to the table than other dominant big men who rebound and block shots such as TD, Pau and Marc Gasol, Bynum, KG and even Big Z, Okur and Amare.

The difference is that if any of those other, truly elite big men were to join the Magic and replace D12, that squad would be tons better.

D12 relies on athleticism to get his stats, is clumsy and foul prone, and doesn't have the IQ or instincts to carry any team to any championship.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao


Player Comparison From RotoTimes.com:
http://www.rototimes.com/nba/player_comparison.php

2009-10 Season Comparison
Player Team G MIN PPG FG FGP FT FTP FG3 FG3P RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF
Andrew Bynum LAL 65 1979 15.0 392 .570 193 .739 0 .000 8.3 1.0 0.5 1.4 115 193
Marc Gasol MEM 69 2469 14.6 378 .581 252 .670 0 .000 9.3 2.4 1.0 1.6 135 254
Dwight Howard ORL 82 2844 18.3 510 .612 483 .592 0 .000 13.2 1.8 0.9 2.8 274 287
Zydrunas Ilgauskas CLE 64 1337 7.4 194 .443 75 .743 11 .478 5.4 0.8 0.2 0.8 63 183
Mehmet Okur UTH 73 2152 13.5 355 .458 196 .820 82 .385 7.1 1.6 0.5 1.1 127 223


So let's see...from the players you highlighted...it looks like D12 leads them in points, rebounds, blocks and FG%. He also leads in minutes played by more than 20% more than his nearest competitor there. That obviously affects the accumulated stats except FG%.

But, he also trails the entire group in FT% and turnovers. In fact his fouls/minute (about .1) is very average compared with these guys, and only one of this list is considered to be a Super All Star DPOY type 1st Banana player.

If we can make these types of comparisons with guys like Big Z (who didn't play a portion of this year due to the trade, and was platooned with two other all star caliber big men), Bynum (often hurt) and Marc Gasol (a rookie), doesn't that sound stupid to think of him as any kind of superstar?

Does anyone bother to compare guys like Pau Gasol, KG and Duncan with the likes of Okur? It would be a slaughter in almost all categories. That's because those guys are real stars, not media/NBA-manufactured ones who just happen to be on a team full of talent like the Magic.

[SomeCallMeTim]

Are humans better without opposable thumbs?

Were Lennon and McCartney better post-Beatles?

Is Golden Corral better than Ruth's Chris?

[j.dizzle]

No way but its really easy to get into Dwights head, he's like a little boy with muscles hahaha..Btw how many and 1 easy layup attempts did he miss today? hahaha wow time to man up son.

[NewJerSpur]

No way but its really easy to get into Dwights head, he's like a little boy with muscles hahaha..Btw how many and 1 easy layup attempts did he miss today? hahaha wow time to man up son.

That was pretty bad, especially given it forced him to have to make 2 FT's...left points on the table there.

[LnGrrrR]

No way would they be better. I hate on DHo, but no one can touch him with it comes to strength, rebounding, and athletic ability to shot-block. I mainly don't like him because he could be a much better player with a few tweaks. I feel like he's ripping me off :lol

[Cane]

The Magic team are pretty damn good without Howard since he leads the league in personal fouls and technicals so their team is accustomed to him sitting on the bench. The Bobcats series is a good example.

But when he is on the court it does at least put other guys in foul trouble since you'd rather send Howard to the line than allow an easy attempt. Dwight is mentally weak and easily frustrated though. Their last loss before the Celtics was in San Antonio and Dwight basically melted down like he did against the Bobcats.

For whatever dumbass reason he keeps committing the same stupid fouls (particularly elbows) over and over again and then whines to the ref on and off the court. People talk about "killer instinct" - not sure what Howard has but it sure as hell ain't that. Seeing your star big man commit those dumbass mistakes and suck ass at the free throw line must be demoralizing especially in the playoffs.

All that shit talking aside, he's still the best big in the league and will make you pay if you give him space. However it says a lot about the status of NBA big men when Howard's the best of the group.

[Killakobe81]

The Magic team are pretty damn good without Howard since he leads the league in personal fouls and technicals so their team is accustomed to him sitting on the bench. The Bobcats series is a good example.

But when he is on the court it does at least put other guys in foul trouble since you'd rather send Howard to the line than allow an easy attempt. Dwight is mentally weak and easily frustrated though. Their last loss before the Celtics was in San Antonio and Dwight basically melted down like he did against the Bobcats.

For whatever dumbass reason he keeps committing the same stupid fouls (particularly elbows) over and over again and then whines to the ref on and off the court. People talk about "killer instinct" - not sure what Howard has but it sure as hell ain't that. Seeing your star big man commit those dumbass mistakes and suck ass at the free throw line must be demoralizing especially in the playoffs.

All that shit talking aside, he's still the best big in the league and will make you pay if you give him space. However it says a lot about the status of NBA big men when Howard's the best of the group.

Well said ...

[mogrovejo]

What Ghazi and HarlemHeat said.


All Howard does is block shots. His post defense is average. He's like Ben Wallace with more length. In fact if you took the DPOY Camby (of a couple years ago) and put him on this year's Magic squad, they'd be better off than they are now.

And yet, the Magic have consistently been a top defensive team in the league in spite of a lack of top-notch defenders outside of Howard - something that Camby's teams never accomplished. Howard is a better defender than Camby ever was. And since when Ben Wallace with more length is anything short of one of the best big man defenders ever?

[mogrovejo]

Right, and that's probably because he protects the paint and rebounds. Those are also very replaceable skill sets. I still contend that he brings less to the table than other dominant big men who rebound and block shots such as TD, Pau and Marc Gasol, Bynum, KG and even Big Z, Okur and Amare.

The difference is that if any of those other, truly elite big men were to join the Magic and replace D12, that squad would be tons better .

D12 relies on athleticism to get his stats, is clumsy and foul prone, and doesn't have the IQ or instincts to carry any team to any championship.

Ahahahahahaha. Is this serious or a well disguised troll job?

[wanggi]

The Lakers are better without Kobe Bryant.

Odom, Gasol, Fisher, Bynum, Artest and Brown can form a title contender team without Kobe. Team work > Most selfish player in the league.

[Allanon]

If the Magic don't want to get swept, they're going to need Dwight to step up. That team goes as Dwight goes.

[Giuseppe]

Howard just wants this angst & misery to go away so he can get back to being in control.

[HarlemHeat37]

Ya..the comment about Camby was really bad, but I guess I can KIND OF live with it(not really, but let's pretend)..

The attempted insult by saying "Ben Wallace with more length" as if it's a bad thing..Ben Wallace was only one of the best defenders in the NBA in his prime, so I don't know what he meant by that..I guess I can live with that too, let's pretend again..

But wow, Zyndrudas Ilgauskas and Mehmet Okur?..what, the, fuck?!..I'll ignore the Marc Gasol part, even though that's outrageous too, but Big Z and Mehmet Okur?..why?..

[Bob Lanier]

Defensively it's not even close.

Offensively, it seemed that way because the only times Gortat got the ball were in pick and roll situations instead of squandering possession after possession on post-ups, but, here's an idea, Howard can do the same thing, and do it better with his superior speed.

[fmedrano1977]

There is more to basketball than just athletic ability. His lack of offensive skills is going to be Orlando's downfall this series.

[Bob Lanier]

There is more to basketball than just athletic ability. His lack of offensive skills is going to be Orlando's downfall this series.
It's very likely. But that doesn't mean the Magic would win if he didn't play.

[narmerguy]

There is more to basketball than just athletic ability. His lack of offensive skills is going to be Orlando's downfall for several seasons.

Fixed. It'll be this way until he fixes. It was the same thing last year and time in and time out you can tell that he hasn't worked on trying to improve his offensive skills at all. The hell with the free throw shooting, let him suck at that. He's capable of more than the 1 or 2 moves he delivers in the post. And lord help that boy when he gets older and isn't as much of a physical freak and able to easily dominate everyone with pure athleticism.

[phxspurfan]

Biggity bump.


Did anyone see the ridiculous smile he had on his face as his team was being swept aside like old trash at home?

[Blake]

seems to me the Magic would be better off not trying to cram it down into Howard in the post so often.

If he had just half of Duncan's footwork, he could MVP material every year.

[SenorSpur]

The Magic are better off without Vince Carter and they're much worse off without Hedo. The GM should've never farted around with the chemistry of that team. After all, they only made the NBA Finals last year.

[Cane]

Refs are probably going to watch Howard pretty closely after that flagrant foul on Pierce.

Howard had an efficient offensive night but didn't register a double-double and didn't have a single block. Perkins also fouled out and Howard and the Magic didn't capitalize.

Lewis has been a complete nonfactor --- now we see why Orlando wanted Sheed or Antonio McDyess.

[phxspurfan]

Lol 7 and 7 from 'Superman'

[pauls931]

Refs are probably going to watch Howard pretty closely after that flagrant foul on Pierce.

Howard had an efficient offensive night but didn't register a double-double and didn't have a single block. Perkins also fouled out and Howard and the Magic didn't capitalize.

Lewis has been a complete nonfactor --- now we see why Orlando wanted Sheed or Antonio McDyess.

Lewis is a very talented player, but it just seems like he's on the wrong team and definitely doesn't deserve max. He was a terror on Seattle in the day, but Orlando has plenty of talent where a lesser cheaper player can fill his roll.