ESPN: Ginobili vs. Wade

[nkdlunch]

The Lead Item
Two Words For You:
NEW. DEBATE.

Shelve that stale Nash vs. Shaq MVP debate. Here's today's much fresher, fiercer debate:

Wade vs. Ginobili: Who would win a 1-on-1 game between them?

Put it on summer pay-per-view, because it's the most entertaining "mano y Manu" matchup across any NBA pairing.

Look at last night:

Wade put together one of the greatest all-around individual games in NBA playoff history (only four others have had 30-15-5 games).

Ginobili was no slouch: 28 points (9/11 FG) and 4 assists, and that was off the bench.

Both slither to the rim. Both make slick passes. Both rebound well for their position. Both would rather drain weird-looking long 2s than jack 3s.

Both are deceptively fast and even more deceptive hops, two key ingredients to any telegenic and closer-than-you-think 1-on-1 battle.

Starting a team? Wade is the pick, easily (which he would be over all but a handful of players in the league right now).

But 1-on-1? Toss-up.

[Solid D]

Curious, interesting matchup indeed. The quote "and that was off the bench" has its dramatic effect, however, a more realistic remark there would be "and that was in his usual 30 minutes of playing time".

The 1-on-1 matchup would probably need a ref. Wade is the more physical player.

[nkdlunch]

In a short game it would be a toss up, but the longer the game the more advantage Wade would have. They should have 1-1s in the Allstars

[Mr. Body]

Wade is the better player with the brighter long-term future, but Ginobili's basketball IQ is through the roof. He's a winner and turns scary-good in clutch situations, on both sides of the court. It's not like he's on a hot streak right now - he's playing well because it's the playoffs.

[johnny00]

They should have 1-1s in the Allstars
No S!HT!!!!!!

Those games would be more fun to watch than the Slamdunk competition!!!!!

[TDMVPDPOY]

^^^ no shit, stern wont let it happen, cose his cronnies wont be able to dictate the game :(

[wildbill2u]

Wade is probably playing like the #1 guard in the league right now--but Manu isn't far behind.

But on a one-on-one contest with a referee, Wade might be in trouble because of Manu's unorthodox lefty moves that make him so hard to defend. God, it must be a nightmare to defend that guy.

[Mark in Austin]

1 on 1 would never happen - too great a chance that somebody's fragile ego gets damaged when they get posterized or ankles broken. It would be more realistic to see a 2-on-2 or 3-on-3 tournament.

seriously, who wouldn't want to see

Parker, Ginobili, Duncan

vs

Nash, Johnson, Stoudamire; or Arenas, Hughes, Jamison?

[nkdlunch]

they already have those gay 3-3s. oh well, I guess we'll just see 1-1 on playstation

[Nikos]

Of course Wade is better. He is simply the more gifted athlete and is a more gifted 1 on 1 scorer. Wade is also pretty solid at every aspect of the game except three point shooting and maybe 1 on 1 containment defense.

[Fouled Out]

You know I have been thinking about this. I believe Manu is better off the bench. Manu is like NOS for the Spurs. When you are in a race or in this case a race for the rings. You don't show your opponent what's under the hood, until later. It is more physcological , then when you expose your opponents weakness you bring out the NOS(Manu) to finish off and win the race. MANU=NOS. GO SPURS GO!!!!!!!

[duncan2k5]

i love manu, but realistically wade would win in a 1-on-1

[nkdlunch]

How about Wade vs. Arenas? that would be a great matchup. I think Arenas might even win 'cause he's more of a street baller.

[exstatic]

In a short game it would be a toss up, but the longer the game the more advantage Wade would have.

I have to disagree. In a longer game, the post up becomes more of a weapon. That clearly favors the 6'6" Ginobili over the 6'4" Wade. There is also no way that Wade keeps Manu from going all the way to the rack, and Manu showed last night that even if you get by him, he can swat the shot. He's also a far better long distance shooter, meaning Wade would have to come out on him, whereas he could play off Wade to protect against the drive.

[Jimcs50]

I think it should be 2 on 2.

TP and Manu against Jones and Wade.

3 on 3?

Add TD and Shaq.

Now those would be awesome.

The good news is we might see these two going at it in another month.

The ratings would be through the roof.

[DDS4]

Apples and oranges. Wade is a PG/SG while Manu is a SG/SF. Wade is slightly quicker but Manu has the size.

Manu has a better shot and is a better defender but Wade has the quickness and slightly better athleticism.

[samikeyp]

Don't know who would win...really doesn't matter unless the title is determined by one on one matchups but that would be damn fun to watch and I would pay to see it.

[N.Y. Johnny]

Fuck ESPN. :flipoff

[Clandestino]

detroit may beat miami...we may not see the matchup

[Solid D]

Outside of Amare Stoudamire, are there any two hotter players in the playoffs right now? Those three do it at both ends of the court, which sets them apart from Ray Allen, Steve Nash, etc.

[Manu20]

Outside of Amare Stoudamire, are there any two hotter players in the playoffs right now? Those three do it at both ends of the court, which sets them apart from Ray Allen, Steve Nash, etc.
How about Ben Wallace? He has become an offensive weapon for Detroit.

BTW Manu will win :)

[whottt]

Manu would own him...I don't know why everyone automatically assumes Wade is a better athlete...Manu is a superb athlete, he's a better defender, and he's a better shooter...


Wade may indeed be the better passer...that means exactly squat in a game of one on one.


Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Wade on the wrong end of a Manu asskicking this past summer?

Wade could have made his statement then....Manu made his.

[Nikos]

Yeah right. Wade is the better athlete.

He is stronger and can create his own shot off the dribble consistently.

If Manu could hit shots off the dribble under solid pressure, consistently then he would be the closest player to being Wade. But thats the biggest difference between them.

Manu has a better long range shot and uses a little more energy on D. I would actually say that Manu is a better passer, but NOT a better creator of offense.

Wade gets a lot of assists because he has the ball a lot, and is more of a threat to make plays. His passing is no more impressive than Manu's (even though Manu throws some pretty shitty passes at times).

Wade is obviously the better player and talent. But if Manu could hit the jumper off the dribble 2-3 times a game, or in the clutch -- he would be pretty close.

[MI21]

Wade is a freak athletically Whottt, Manu is good, but not extraordinary by NBA standards, while Wade is.

1 on 1 would be close, don't discount the fact that Manu is left handed and a better shooter, if they played 5 games I think Manu would definitly win 1 and probably 2 or he could even win the majority. Would be a close call.

[picnroll]

Wade is more important to the Heat's success than Shaq is. Tough to say if LeBron or Wade will go down as the best player from the class of 2003.

Shaq isn't looking so hot these days. I'll be surprised if the Heat get past Detroit.

One on one? Who cares? In the finals? Rather face the Heat and I'll take Manu and the Spurs.

[tlongII]

The NBA used to have 1 on 1 competitions in the mid 70's. I think Geoff Petrie won it one year.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I just wish Stern had the balls to give the fans what they want (one on one at the All-Star game).

Fuck that co-rec skills exhibition shit and give me some street ball between NBA All-Stars.

[BigVee]

The NBA used to have 1 on 1 competitions in the mid 70's. I think Geoff Petrie won it one year.
I remember when they did that. Don't recall Petrie, but do remember one final between Bob Lanier and Mike Newlin. Lanier won. A big man who can handle the ball and shoot is very tough in one on one.

[picnroll]

Grew up in the town where Big Bob Lanier played college ball, St Bonnies. Saw him as a youngster many times. Bonnies his senior year made it to the NCAA finals. Unfortunately toward the end of the regional finals they were playing Villanova and Chris Ford roled into the back ofLanier's leg tearing up his knees. Bonnies went on to lose to Gilmores team in the semifinals and Bob went on to surgery.

Lanier was a hell of a player but would have been even greater if that knee hadn't been torn up taking away some of his explosiveness and mobility permanently.

[whottt]

Nikos, this is the second time I have heard you utter this, "Manu can't consistently create his own shot" nonsense...it's time for you to put the Gyro down son...

What in the hell do you mean Manu can't consistently create his own shot? No one in the NBA can guard Manu...period.

You mistake him not having to create his own shot, or preferring to take it into the teeth of defenses, with an inability to do so...And Manu hits a greater % of his jumpshots than Wade...


And I don't know why you think that a guy that plays with Shaq has to do a lot of creating of his own J anyway.

IMO, Shaq gets doubled more now than he has at any time in his career...not only is Shaq good at passing out of mutiple person defenses...but just standing on the court he opens lanes and creates a looseness of D for all of his teamates.....

Duncan is getting doubled less than at any time in his career...and Manu and Parker are the reason for it. In the true sense...Manu helps Duncan more than Wade helps Shaq...I don't think Wade helps Shaq as much as Kobe did...even thought I like Wade better.

Wade is more integral to the Heat's success? Wade got his ass kicked at the end of the season without Shaq.

Don't confuse the Shaq effect with individual dominance...Wade would not be as good numbers wise without Shaq...Manu would put up better numbers without Duncan.


Secondly...Manu's athelticism is very under-rated...contrary to popular belief...there are players in the NBA that play just as hard as Manu...they aren't capable of taking over games as well as he is because they lack his athleticism...Manu is not really that polished of a player...all of his game comes from his athleticism and his smarts...

Manu has had the ability to be an elite player in two very difference styles of basketball..and if you dropped Manu into a streetball game he would be an elite player in the arena as well...

People need to recognize just how good Manu is...enjoy his game while he is in his prime...because he's not going to have a long career...

[Obstructed_View]

If I want to watch 1 on 1 I'll root for the Wizards or the Celtics. Why don't we just have a competition to see who can eat the most caramels? That has about as much to do with their value playing a team sport.

Street ball is less interesting to watch than breakdancing.

[nkdlunch]

Manu has had the ability to be an elite player in two very difference styles of basketball..and if you dropped Manu into a streetball game he would be an elite player in the arena as well...


No way dude, he wouldn't last 1 game before being hospitalized

[nkdlunch]

i would love for that to be done at allstar games

think of the different matches they could give us

kg vs duncan
kobe vs tmac
shaq vs yao
francis vs starbury
kidd vs nash (lol)

and why does it have to stop there? what about teammates playing each other? lol
gil vs hughes
amare vs matrix
etc etc

or a better one would be yao vs shawn

Forget those matchups, what about Shaq vs. Boykins? Boykins would own him.

[whottt]

No way dude, he wouldn't last 1 game before being hospitalized


You need to go back and watch the Denver series...and watch the payback Manu gave Bucker after Buckner was throwing elbows...I believe it was game 2 where Buckener got a bony ass elbow moving at high velocity shoved up his snout...

You must have missed the Karl quote where he said Manu gives out as much as he gets....Karl was right on that...Manu does. He's just so good at it he looks like he is the one being victimized.

[picnroll]

Okay, if it's one on one I want Bruce Bowen vs. Ray Allen. No refs. Steel cage.

[texbumTHElife]

Who cares about a 1 on 1 matchup, Manu owns ALL in Horse!

[nkdlunch]

You need to go back and watch the Denver series...and watch the payback Manu gave Bucker after Buckner was throwing elbows...I believe it was game 2 where Buckener got a bony ass elbow moving at high velocity shoved up his snout...

You must have missed the Karl quote where he said Manu gives out as much as he gets....Karl was right on that...Manu does. He's just so good at it he looks like he is the one being victimized.

Have u ever seen a real street ball game???

and I'm not talking about those gay and-1

[MadDog73]

Has no-one noticed Manu is shooting 52.4% in the Playoffs?

That's better than Wade AND Shaq!

(although, strangely enough, not better than Eddie Jones who's shooting 56% (48.7% 3 pts).

[whottt]

Have u ever seen a real street ball game???

and I'm not talking about those gay and-1

Have you ever seen 7 foot 300lb Jerome James whipping his elbow upside Manu's head for taking it to the hole on him? How often do you see guys that size in a street ball game?



Manu's tougher than he looks and he does know how to give it out, they might get in one cheap shot and that's it...Underestimate him at your own risk.

[Rick Von Braun]

It is only 7 games, but Manu's Point Per Shot (PPS) are off the charts!!

I don't know if you have realized, but he leads all players in the playoffs with 1.84. This is so skewed for a guard in the playoffs that it is almost a statistical anomaly.

Some people in this board don't realize how good he really is.

[whottt]

In that last Houston game Manu's D on TMac made TMac look like he was still in highschool...you don't do that to TMac without athleticism...you also don't adapt your game as often and as effectively as Manu does without it....Manu's not that polished of a player...nearly everything he does is because of athleticism, and his smarts...

[T Park]

if the Spurs played the Heat in the finals, Ginobili would see the majority of the minutes guarding wade.

Parker owuld guard Eddie Jones, wich is fine, cause Eddie stands back for the threes, parker can keep up on the perimiter.



Im trying not to think of Suns or Heat or Pistons matchups, but when your rollin along like this its hard not to!! :)

[nkdlunch]

Have you ever seen 7 foot 300lb Jerome James whipping his elbow upside Manu's head for taking it to the hole on him? How often do you see guys that size in a street ball game?



Manu's tougher than he looks and he does know how to give it out, they might get in one cheap shot and that's it...Underestimate him at your own risk.

Manu is my favorite player, but his game requires refs and to get to the line a lot. Streetball is not refereed the same so he would get his ass knocked down everytime and even might get hurt. That's the only way you can stop him.

[whottt]

It is only 7 games, but Manu's Point Per Shot (PPS) are off the charts!!

I don't know if you have realized, but he leads all players in the playoffs with 1.84. This is so skewed for a guard in the playoffs that it is almost a statistical anomaly.

Some people in this board don't realize how good he really is.


It's called Spursfans disease...a lot of bandwaggoners that lack true knowledge of their game they parrot takes from ESPN etc in an attempt to sound knowledgable and unbiased...they take the view on their own players that those idiots in big media have that hardly even watch the games......If they stop listening to ESPN and listen to what the players and coaches say, and watch the games of the players involved, they might have more respect for Manu and realize that Manu would fucking school, note, I didn't just say "school" I said "fucking school", Dwayne Wade, at this stage of their careers.


Dwayne Wade is Vanilla, not bad, but a very rudimentary game...

Manu is flat out nasty.

[MiNuS]

Ginobli hands down!

Wasn't Wade on the Olympic team?

History will tell,but Ginobli makes and breaks plays;he's a differrence maker;with or without Duncan.Ginobli will double pump fake a three,fake going in to the hoop,then fake a foul,throw himself to the ground while scoring and then go to the free throw line,hit the back of the rim,rebound it and then fake losing the ball,recover it,then dunk it on Wade!


GINOBLIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!

[Nikos]

Nikos, this is the second time I have heard you utter this, "Manu can't consistently create his own shot" nonsense...it's time for you to put the Gyro down son...

I did eat a Gyro today :lol :elephant

Anyhoo, I said Manu can't consistently create his own JUMPSHOT. There is a difference.

You ever see him take jumpshots with the shot clock winding down? A lot of times they don't even get to the rim (like in the first half last night and a few other times this season). Difference is Wade can hit those consistently (let alone just be a threat to make them).

Of course Manu can create his own shot, but more often then not it is a drive to the basket. NOT a jumpshot.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Maybe he could do a better job of it if he was allowed to hog the ball, but I just have not seen Manu hit the jump shot off the dribble consistently (at least with the shot clock winding down).


It is only 7 games, but Manu's Point Per Shot (PPS) are off the charts!!

I don't know if you have realized, but he leads all players in the playoffs with 1.84. This is so skewed for a guard in the playoffs that it is almost a statistical anomaly.

Some people in this board don't realize how good he really is.

For players who play a lot of minutes and is also 2nd/3rd option for his team....that is an awesome start so far.

But why aren't you going by the PSA (that factors in FT's)?


It's called Spursfans disease...

Sure you do not have this disease?

[SilverPlayer]

One question this brings to mind. Would Wade ever even get a single rebound in a 1-1 game? Manu is so freakishly fast that he can curl around any player, to get to the ball.

[MadDog73]

It is only 7 games, but Manu's Point Per Shot (PPS) are off the charts!!

I don't know if you have realized, but he leads all players in the playoffs with 1.84. This is so skewed for a guard in the playoffs that it is almost a statistical anomaly.

Some people in this board don't realize how good he really is.


What are Dwayne Wade's or Shaq's by comparison? Where can you find a PPS listing?

[ALVAREZ6]

ginobili's got 2 inches on him
hmm...I never knew Wade was 6'4"....

[Obstructed_View]

Ginobili is white, which means he's not a good athlete and would get killed by all the brothers, because we know only they can play basketball. We, as educated and enlightened white people, acknowledge that and are so okay with it we announce it as though it's just an understood fact. Ginobili dunking on the entire Suns team after playing for 50 minutes doesn't mean he has any toughness or athletic ability. Instead, Gino, as a white guy has to rely on his smarts, so he draws fouls, and he couldn't possibly compete or find a way to win otherwise.

[waly.mg]

Wade is a better player

Manu is a better Team player

[Rick Von Braun]

Anyhoo, I said Manu can't consistently create his own JUMPSHOT. There is a difference.

You ever see him take jumpshots with the shot clock winding down? A lot of times they don't even get to the rim (like in the first half last night and a few other times this season). Difference is Wade can hit those consistently (let alone just be a threat to make them).

Of course Manu can create his own shot, but more often then not it is a drive to the basket. NOT a jumpshot.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Maybe he could do a better job of it if he was allowed to hog the ball, but I just have not seen Manu hit the jump shot off the dribble reasonably consistently (at least with the shot clock winding down). I call this pure BS.

Let's compare the regular season numbers for jumpshots and for shots with 3 or less seconds in the clock:

Player eFG% (for jumpshots)
Manu .479 (59% of his total attempts)
Wade .389 (53% of his total attempts)

Manu is better by +9.0%

Wade does not have a better jumpshot than Manu, not by a long margin.

Let's see what happened with the possesion time running out (essentially a low percentage shot for most players):

Player eFG% (21+ seconds in the shot clock)
Manu .520 (13% of his total attempts)
Wade .466 (12% of his total attempts)

Manu is better by +5.4%

Oh... but may be you want to compare the playoffs numbers.

Player eFG% (for jumpshots)
Manu .519 (65% of his total attempts)
Wade .444 (59% of his total attempts)

Manu is better by +7.5%

Manu's jumpshot in the playoffs is still significantly better.

Player eFG% (21+ seconds in the shot clock)
Manu .533 (18% of his total attempts)
Wade .563 (7% of his total attempts)

Wade is better by +3.0%. In this case, please consider that Wade has a significanlty lower percentage of attempts than Manu.

These stats prove categorically that Manu is definitely a better jumpshoter, and at the very least, similar in terms of effectiveness when the clock is running down.

Also note that we are comparing two of the elite guards (arguably 2 of the best 5, may be even 2 of the best 3) in the entire league, and Manu still comes ahead.


For players who play a lot of minutes and is also 2nd/3rd option for his team....that is an awesome start so far.

But why aren't you going by the PSA (that factors in FT's)? No matter how you compare them, Manu has better stats.
The PPS obviously factor in FTs.

PPS: PTS/FGA (including points from FTs)

Regular season PPS
Manu 1.52 (tied 2nd with Shaq)
Wade 1.41 (tied 11th with Dirk)

Playoffs PPS
Manu 1.85 (1st and fucking increadible!)
Wade 1.46 (14th)

May be you don't like that Manu is aggressive, goes to the line a lot, gets many FTs and convert a high percentage of them in points. Let's factor out the FTs using the AFG%.

AFG%: Adjusted FG Percentage = [(PTS - FTM)/FGA]/2
ADJ FG% measures shooting efficiency by taking into account the total points a player produces through his field goal attempts. The intention of this adjustment is largely to evaluate the impact of three-point shooting. For ex: If Shaquille O'Neal has 3-5 FG, all two-point shots for 6 points, then his ADJ FG% = [(6/5)]/2 = .600. Meanwhile, if Ray Allen is 2-5 FG, but his 2 FGM are both three-pointers for 6 points, then his ADJ FG% = [(6/5)]/2 = .600

Regular season AFG%
Manu .533 (tied 15th with Billups)
Wade .483 (tied 67th with J. Crawford)

Playoffs AFG%
Manu .604 (8th)
Wade .509 (30th)

Ohh... but the reason for this is that Manu is a much better 3pt shooter, so this is not a fair comparison for Wade. Ok, ok, I'll give you no FTs, and no 3pters. Is this better for Wade? Let's compare the 2pt-FG%

Regular season 2pt-FG%
Manu .517 (26th)
Wade .485 (61th)

Playoffs 2pt-FG%
Manu .556 (8th)
Wade .520 (28th)

I have sliced it in almost any way possible. Are you convinced now?

To conclude, Manu is a better jumpshoter than Wade, he is at least comparable (if not better) when the clock is running down. He is a more effective player, he goes to the line more aggresively, he is a better 3pt shooter, and he is a better 2pt shooter.

Edit: my sources are:
82games.com (http://www.82games.com)
ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbafgpct&sort=pps&order=true&league=nba&avg=none&qual=true&seasontype=3&pos=all&season=2005)

[Obstructed_View]

That was awesome. :)

[MadDog73]

Awesome work, Rick von Braun.

If Manu keeps this up, could he possibly be the Final MVP over Tim Duncan?!?

Either way, what an amazing player. I can't think of any team (except maybe the Pistons) who can defend Manu, Tony and Tim when they are playing well together.

[Horry For 3!]

Both slither to the rim. Both make slick passes. Both rebound well for their position. Both would rather drain weird-looking long 2s than jack 3s.

Actually Ginobili shoots more 3s than weird-looking long 2s. Wade NEVER shoots 3s. I have never watched a game and seen Wade shoot a 3.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

holy shit. Rick V's breakdown is a work of art. Now THAT'S how you call out someone's bullshit on something like this.

BTW, I can't help but observe some of those saying "Manu would get killed" are the same people who thought the world of Malik Rose. You want to talk about not making sense...

[Nikos]

I have watched almost every single Spur game this season on LP, and have seen about 25-30 Miami games (good portions of them). And there is no way in hell Manu can create a jumpshot while being contested and actually MAKE it with the accuracy of Wade.

Pull up all the stats you want, but Manu has airballed several shots with the clock winding down as long as they were CONTESTED. Wade makes them with a man in his grill on the outside (OFF THE DRIBBLE) Manu does not.

Do you actually watch the games? Manu hardly ever attempts mid range shots off the dribble with the shot clock winding down, and when he does he rarely comes close to making it.

Can someone else help me out here instead of pulling up stats of Manu's jumpshooting (with 3pters and open looks being considered).

Isn't is obvious that Wade creates jumpers in the clutch much better than Manu (who most of his jumpers with the shot clock winding down are courtesy of a pass and not off his own dribble.

ANYONE else notice this?

No Rick, we have chatted about this before. I love Manu's efficiency. I love how he gets to the line.

All I am saying that in close games, if Manu is being denied the drive he isn't a reliable shooter of the dribble when being tightly guarded. Wade can rise over the defender or fadeaway and make it consistently.

I am not making fun of Manu. Hell if Manu could make the jumper off the dribble consistently he would be Wade's equal. But that is what makes him a borderline/fringe all star player as opposed to a PERENIAL all star like Wade.

Think about it?

PS Are you directing those stats at me? Cause I look at those stats just as much if not more than you :lol . I am just trying to point out the flaw or area of the game in which Manu does not really excel at (and there are not many areas where he is at least not good or very good at).

[E20]

I'm gonna go with Manu. Why? Well, for one I am probably one of the most Manu homers ever, 2nd RVB gave you the statistical information. If you like Wade because he does it prettier than so be it.

[Nikos]

I'm gonna go with Manu. Why? Well, for one I am probably one of the most Manu homers ever, 2nd RVB gave you the statistical information. If you like Wade because he does it prettier than so be it.

I was aware of the stats before RVB posted them. I am a big stats guy. But I also watch a lot of games, and I like to point out player strengths and weaknesses and make comparisons. I feel you need to actually watch a bunch of games/teams to also get a feel with what the stats actually mean. It's nice to have both some subjectivity AND stats.

[Obstructed_View]

Did you just call a guy who's been in the league for two years and one all-star game a perennial all-star?

Dwayne Wade is seriously overrated. I think someone in here said it. Without Shaq, Wade is just another gifted guard. Without Duncan, Ginobili scores 25 a game.

[spursfan05]

give me manu! theres about 50 players who can do what wade does starting with kobe and ending with troy hudson. manu is a one of a kind player :fro

[E20]

Well you could make an argument on how clutch Wade is with his famous off the dribble game winner jumpers and I'm not taking anything away from Wade but, I'm a homer so I pick Gino. And I'm sure there is a good argument to back up Manu and a good argument to back up Wade.

[Nikos]

Yes Wade will be a perennial all-star.

[Obstructed_View]

You said he is a perennial all star. He's been to exactly the same number as Ginobili, and he plays in the east.

[whottt]

Nikos...that's just the Spurs offense. It doesn't try to feature a midrange game.

It's 3 pointers or pentration...

IF you truly watch the games, you will know that the 2 things on offense Pop will yank a guy for instaneously...

Shooting a transition 3(and missing it), a guy putting it on the floor and chucking up a midrange J over a defender...you don't see guys doing that because Pop will put their ass on the bench for it.

Keep watching and if you notice, you are seeing Glenn Robinson spending more and more time camped out at the 3 point line...

Pop wants penetration, or he wants threes...

Ask Ron Mercer.

Manu had a good midrange shot when he first got here and he's gone more and more away from it with each passing year...

Brent Barry has had a good midrange shot his entire career and he hasn't shot it since about the 3rd week of the season.

Hopefully we won't got away from that with Big Dogg...but if he has a night where his shot isn't falling from midrange when he's trying to create....Pop will blow a gasket over it...wait and see.

[ducks]

dude what was the heat record last year
they were number 4 in the east


wade were good before shaq his body there

sure it has helped fat boy lost 60 pounds!

[T Park]

a guy putting it on the floor and chucking up a midrange J over a defender

Guess you have missed Robinson, especially last night.


BTW, Robinson missed one, and Popovich clapped, and said keep shooting.

So, god, hate to blow your "I Hate POP" Rant, but your wrong.

[whottt]

Guess you have missed Robinson, especially last night.


BTW, Robinson missed one, and Popovich clapped, and said keep shooting.

So, god, hate to blow your "I Hate POP" Rant, but your wrong.


Show me where I said I hate Pop or shut the fuck up...

Your child molesting rants offend me...


And I would hope Pop would give the guy with the best midrange J in the game some fucking leeway...

But I've never seen Robinson camped out at the 3 line as much as he has been in our last two series...

Wait until the honeymoon is over and see what happens...

[Rick Von Braun]

I have watched almost every single Spur game this season on LP, and have seen about 25-30 Miami games (good portions of them). And there is no way in hell Manu can create a jumpshot while being contested and actually MAKE it with the accuracy of Wade. So you assume I don't watch the games either? Why you say that? Shall I take your word as fact?


Pull up all the stats you want, but Manu has airballed several shots with the clock winding down as long as they were CONTESTED. Wade makes them with a man in his grill on the outside (OFF THE DRIBBLE) Manu does not. I've seen Wade do the same thing several times as well. Don't you honestly think Wade does not airball jumpshots? I remember several pull-up jumpers Manu has taking with 2 or even 4 hands in his face. Only in the Suns games back in January I remember Manu doing that at least 3 or 4 times. Look, it is all anecdotical evidence. People tend to remember what they want, and they tend to forget the actual facts. I presented proved facts to clarify the discussion, you can continue arguing about your vision of the reality as fact all you want.


Do you actually watch the games? Manu hardly ever attempts mid range shots off the dribble with the shot clock winding down, and when he does he rarely comes close to making it.

Can someone else help me out here instead of pulling up stats of Manu's jumpshooting (with 3pters and open looks being considered).

Isn't is obvious that Wade creates jumpers in the clutch much better than Manu (who most of his jumpers with the shot clock winding down are courtesy of a pass and not off his own dribble.

ANYONE else notice this? Yes, you are right. I don't watch the games. You got me there http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif


No Rick, we have chatted about this before. I love Manu's efficiency. I love how he gets to the line.

All I am saying that in close games, if Manu is being denied the drive he isn't a reliable shooter of the dribble when being tightly guarded. Wade can rise over the defender or fadeaway and make it consistently.

I am not making fun of Manu. Hell if Manu could make the jumper off the dribble consistently he would be Wade's equal. But that is what makes him a borderline/fringe all star player as opposed to a PERENIAL all star like Wade.

Think about it? I have thought about it, and I think you are wrong. I have presented some data to justify my opinion. It is obviously not enough, it never is on a web board full of egos instead of discussions.


PS Are you directing those stats at me? Cause I look at those stats just as much if not more than you :lol . I am just trying to point out the flaw or area of the game in which Manu does not really excel at (and there are not many areas where he is at least not good or very good at). For someone that looks at the stats so much, you seem to lack clarity and understanding. At the end of the day, Manu IS more effective than Wade in pressure situations. That is the bottom line, whether you like it or not.

I would like to continue this discussion based on facts. If you don't want to provide any it is your prerogative.

[smeagol]

RVB, awesome posts.

[HB22inSA]

Wade is a better player

Manu is a better Team player
I would say that's very accurate.

[MI21]

"Stats can be used to prove anything Kent, 76% of people know that" - Homer Simpson

Those statistics are impressive RVB, but they don't take into account creating your own jumpshot off the dribble like Nikos is talking about, and there is a huge difference.

Manu is obviously the better jumpshooter of the 2 players, but most his jumpshots come off the Pick N Roll when the defender sags and covers the roll, or spotting up in transition or in the half court set. He doesn't drive hard right, plant his pivot foot and spin back left and shoot a fadeaway 15 footer and make it 3/4 times a game like Wade does. That is shooting off the dribble, and Wade is much more effective at those type of shots, anyone arguing that hasn't seen enough of either player this season.

You have to remember statistics lie as well, those statistics make Manu look like the best player in the entire world but we all know that isn't true because the best player in the world is Manu's teammate :) I dunno if you do this or not, but maybe you should rely on your own abilities to judge a player and make your own opinions rather than falling back on statistics all the time.

[hendrix]

"Stats can be used to prove anything Kent, 76% of people know that" - Homer Simpson

Those statistics are impressive RVB, but they don't take into account creating your own jumpshot off the dribble like Nikos is talking about, and there is a huge difference.

Manu is obviously the better jumpshooter of the 2 players, but most his jumpshots come off the Pick N Roll when the defender sags and covers the roll, or spotting up in transition or in the half court set. He doesn't drive hard right, plant his pivot foot and spin back left and shoot a fadeaway 15 footer and make it 3/4 times a game like Wade does. That is shooting off the dribble, and Wade is much more effective at those type of shots, anyone arguing that hasn't seen enough of either player this season.

You have to remember statistics lie as well, those statistics make Manu look like the best player in the entire world but we all know that isn't true because the best player in the world is Manu's teammate :) I dunno if you do this or not, but maybe you should rely on your own abilities to judge a player and make your own opinions rather than falling back on statistics all the time.

Yeah... let's keep those statistics out and start considering all the intangibles, like 1-on-1 defense or court awareness, etc, etc...
And Manu doesnt take that many fadeaway 15 footers beacuse he doesn't need to, he chooses to drive to the rim and takes a foul. You need 3 guys to stop Manu doing that.

[Nikos]

"Stats can be used to prove anything Kent, 76% of people know that" - Homer Simpson

Those statistics are impressive RVB, but they don't take into account creating your own jumpshot off the dribble like Nikos is talking about, and there is a huge difference.

Manu is obviously the better jumpshooter of the 2 players, but most his jumpshots come off the Pick N Roll when the defender sags and covers the roll, or spotting up in transition or in the half court set. He doesn't drive hard right, plant his pivot foot and spin back left and shoot a fadeaway 15 footer and make it 3/4 times a game like Wade does. That is shooting off the dribble, and Wade is much more effective at those type of shots, anyone arguing that hasn't seen enough of either player this season.

You have to remember statistics lie as well, those statistics make Manu look like the best player in the entire world but we all know that isn't true because the best player in the world is Manu's teammate :) I dunno if you do this or not, but maybe you should rely on your own abilities to judge a player and make your own opinions rather than falling back on statistics all the time.

Thanks MI21.

Look I am not even trying to diss Manu. He is my favorite player with Duncan (yes Duncan is the reason I became a Spurs fan in the first place).

Anyhoo, Wade is just the better creator. Manu might even be a little better than the Spurs offense gives him credit for, but he also knows how to work with his teamattes efficiently. He doesn't force too many bad shots. But the fact is he has not proven he can hit that shot off the dribble with a hand in his face like the elite guards in the league.

Maybe he could do it better than he does now if he was allowed to, but he hasn't showed it yet.

Stats have their place in analysis. And yes I know you watch games, but it suprises me you do not think Wade is the better creator off the dribble in terms of mid range jump shooting? Just from your subjective viewpoint, can't you see that Wade is more of a creator off the dribble? He simply is able to get more seperation and straighter elevation on his J. Manu tends to drift to the side at times on his jumpers.

I know the stats show Manu is a more efficient player in the context of his team, but I am simply talking about a skill that stats can't really cover. Sure it is subjective, but at what point do you draw the line and use your stats in combination with subjectivity?

[MI21]

Yeah... let's keep those statistics out and start considering all the intangibles, like 1-on-1 defense or court awareness, etc, etc...
And Manu doesnt take that many fadeaway 15 footers beacuse he doesn't need to, he chooses to drive to the rim and takes a foul. You need 3 guys to stop Manu doing that.

Dwyane Wade is special, the fact that we are able to compare Manu to him is amazing, I never thought Manu would be that good. Manu has Wade beat on the 1on1 defense, but Wade isa good defender too, and both players benefit from having either #1 or #2 best player in the league defending the rim. Court awareness is even, Wade has fantastic vision and ability to know where to get on the court to score, and so does Manu. Taking a jab at Wade by saying Manu doesn't shoot the jumpshots Wade does because he doesn't have to is also stupid. Check out the FTA per game stats for the year and come back to me.

Anyway, I'm not sure why I would bother discussing with you hendrix, I've seen consistently bash Tony in chat for no reason, so you are obviously a fan of Manu, not of the team.

[Nikos]

Well thats the thing if you go by FT/ FG Manu and Wade actually very close and near the top of the league at their position. Manu is at 46% and Wade at 44%.

Both are simply elite at getting to the rack (even better than most elite guards in the league).

[Obstructed_View]

I'd take either or both of them on my team any day.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Wade is a beast athletically, Manu is a little behind.

For the first time in my life, I am actually going to DISAGREE WITH EXSTATIC! (OMG!) I think Wade has the advantage in the post because he is far stronger in the upper body than Manu and has more explosive hops (although Manu's lefty moves almost evens it). Having played the post as a skinny guy, I know that a shorter guy (and 2" is not much) with a bigger upper body can do you in consistently.

Love to see that matchup though.

[Athenea]

Anyway, I'm not sure why I would bother discussing with you hendrix, I've seen consistently bash Tony in chat for no reason, so you are obviously a fan of Manu, not of the team.
Really? ST chat? Then I must be on dope or something coz I can't recall the last time Hendrix bashed TP and I can say I'm in there more than u do.
Don't go accusing ppl of being what u are: a prejudiced/biased/intolerant person :rolleyes .

On the subject, 1 on 1 Manu and Wade? who cares?? Last time I checked both r in different systems, career stages and backgrounds.
I keep in my mind Manu's 3ptr +1 in the OGs...the "smart" foul was Wade's.

[TDfan2007]

Wade would win.

[MI21]

Really? ST chat? Then I must be on dope or something coz I can't recall the last time Hendrix bashed TP and I can say I'm in there more than u do.
Don't go accusing ppl of being what u are: a prejudiced/biased/intolerant person

You are obviously a fan of Manu too, not of the team.

It's ok.

[313]

I call this pure BS.

Let's compare the regular season numbers for jumpshots and for shots with 3 or less seconds in the clock:

Player eFG% (for jumpshots)
Manu .479 (59% of his total attempts)
Wade .389 (53% of his total attempts)

Manu is better by +9.0%

Wade does not have a better jumpshot than Manu, not by a long margin.

Let's see what happened with the possesion time running out (essentially a low percentage shot for most players):

Player eFG% (21+ seconds in the shot clock)
Manu .520 (13% of his total attempts)
Wade .466 (12% of his total attempts)

Manu is better by +5.4%

Oh... but may be you want to compare the playoffs numbers.

Player eFG% (for jumpshots)
Manu .519 (65% of his total attempts)
Wade .444 (59% of his total attempts)

Manu is better by +7.5%

Manu's jumpshot in the playoffs is still significantly better.

Player eFG% (21+ seconds in the shot clock)
Manu .533 (18% of his total attempts)
Wade .563 (7% of his total attempts)

Wade is better by +3.0%. In this case, please consider that Wade has a significanlty lower percentage of attempts than Manu.

These stats prove categorically that Manu is definitely a better jumpshoter, and at the very least, similar in terms of effectiveness when the clock is running down.

Also note that we are comparing two of the elite guards (arguably 2 of the best 5, may be even 2 of the best 3) in the entire league, and Manu still comes ahead.

No matter how you compare them, Manu has better stats.
The PPS obviously factor in FTs.

PPS: PTS/FGA (including points from FTs)

Regular season PPS
Manu 1.52 (tied 2nd with Shaq)
Wade 1.41 (tied 11th with Dirk)

Playoffs PPS
Manu 1.85 (1st and fucking increadible!)
Wade 1.46 (14th)

May be you don't like that Manu is aggressive, goes to the line a lot, gets many FTs and convert a high percentage of them in points. Let's factor out the FTs using the AFG%.

AFG%: Adjusted FG Percentage = [(PTS - FTM)/FGA]/2
ADJ FG% measures shooting efficiency by taking into account the total points a player produces through his field goal attempts. The intention of this adjustment is largely to evaluate the impact of three-point shooting. For ex: If Shaquille O'Neal has 3-5 FG, all two-point shots for 6 points, then his ADJ FG% = [(6/5)]/2 = .600. Meanwhile, if Ray Allen is 2-5 FG, but his 2 FGM are both three-pointers for 6 points, then his ADJ FG% = [(6/5)]/2 = .600

Regular season AFG%
Manu .533 (tied 15th with Billups)
Wade .483 (tied 67th with J. Crawford)

Playoffs AFG%
Manu .604 (8th)
Wade .509 (30th)

Ohh... but the reason for this is that Manu is a much better 3pt shooter, so this is not a fair comparison for Wade. Ok, ok, I'll give you no FTs, and no 3pters. Is this better for Wade? Let's compare the 2pt-FG%

Regular season 2pt-FG%
Manu .517 (26th)
Wade .485 (61th)

Playoffs 2pt-FG%
Manu .556 (8th)
Wade .520 (28th)

I have sliced it in almost any way possible. Are you convinced now?

To conclude, Manu is a better jumpshoter than Wade, he is at least comparable (if not better) when the clock is running down. He is a more effective player, he goes to the line more aggresively, he is a better 3pt shooter, and he is a better 2pt shooter.

Edit: my sources are:
82games.com (http://www.82games.com)
ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbafgpct&sort=pps&order=true&league=nba&avg=none&qual=true&seasontype=3&pos=all&season=2005)
:wow

[ElNono]

talk about bumping old stuff... some good ole posters in the here thread...

[Aztecfan03]

:wow

:lol funny that someone trying to go into so much stats uses shots with plenty of time on the shot clock as "the clock running down"

[313]

:lol funny that someone trying to go into so much stats uses shots with plenty of time on the shot clock as "the clock running down"
I thought that too, but maybe he meant with 3 seconds left on the clock. Not 21

[313]

talk about bumping old stuff... some good ole posters in the here thread...
yeep :toast

[superjames1992]

Well, Manu was and still is a better jump shooter than Big Jaw, tbh. Wade is certainly a superior player overall at this point, but he's also ~4 years younger, so that's to be expected.

[hater]

No way dude, he wouldn't last 1 game before being hospitalized

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[Aztecfan03]

I thought that too, but maybe he meant with 3 seconds left on the clock. Not 21

Oh so the stat might be 21+ seconds on the shot clock have passed? that could be it.