Pau Gasol is the Best PF in the league.

[Red Hawk #21]

Time to stop denying, this guy is dominant. He can defend, pass and seems to have a counter post move to every kind of defense played on him. He also seems like a good teammate. Much respect to him. :toast

[Budkin]

He's pretty good, yes.

[21_Blessings]

Pau is currently everything Dirk should have been.

[peskypesky]

i've always like his game. but he's not the best PF in the league. he's surrounded by a ton of talent.

[Ghazi]

Dirk's never destroyed the Suns in the playoffs before

[HarlemHeat37]

Welcome to weeks ago..

Gasol has been the Lakers best player in the playoffs so far, and he's obviously the best PF in the NBA now that Tim is past his prime, this has been apparent for a while..

The true test will be how he responds vs. Boston..last time he saw them, he got neutered..'Sheed and Garnett will be trying to mentally fuck him..

Sucks for Pau that he has to carry that dead weight in Bynum up front..they look a lot better when Odom is out there, as usual..

[Pelicans78]

Pau has the best post game out of any PF. He's actually too big to be considered a PF. He's really a center size at 7'0 250. To me, he's like a modern day Bill Walton. He pretty much can do it all out of the post. Very skilled player. He could easily start at center on most teams.

[dallasmavsnfuego214]

Nope. When Gasol had to lead a team he couldn't even win a playoff game Dirk has led his team to the Finals. Truth hurts

Put Dirk on this Lakers team with this much talent and they are even better.

[DPG21920]

Pau is currently everything Dirk should have been.

Give Dirk Kobe to work with and he would look better. Dirk looks just as good as Pau without Kobe.

[ezau]

Dirk is still better. The only difference is that he's paired with a guy named Kome

[HarlemHeat37]

Dirk is an average defender, a decent rebounder and an average passer..yes, he's a better scorer than Gasol, but the versatility has to count for something..

Why do people talk about Pau's team in Memphis? why do people ignore that Mike fucking Miller and even James fucking Posey were his #2 options most of the time?..

[21_Blessings]

Dirk's never destroyed the Suns in the playoffs before

Dirk's never won anything of significance in the playoffs before

[TD 21]

He's not a PF, he's a C. I don't know why they list him at 7-0, he's clearly 7-1. There is no such thing as a 7-1 PF, therefore he's a C.

Here's what people forget about him as he continues to feast off not being the focus of opposition's defensive game plans and plays routinely against 6-9 PF's: He's a career long choker in high pressure moments, a certified cream puff who get's discouraged when he's pushed around (which is far too rare; watch the Celtics scare the living day light's out of him again, though) and has proven without a shadow of a doubt that he CAN'T carry a team.

I'm not trying to take nothing away from him, but it's funny how people forget all of his shortcomings and get caught up in slobbering over him. Every time a white guy can play in this league, this is what people do.

At this moment, is he playing better than Howard and Duncan? Sure. But, Ginobili was playing better than Bryant for almost half a season; it doesn't make him a better player. I'd still take a healthy, rested Duncan over Gasol. I don't care what anyone says. If the Spurs sign Splitter and are able to finally limit Duncan's workload, I hope these two teams meet in the playoffs next season. Even at 35 (by then), I still think if his knees hold up, Duncan would out duel Gasol.

Why do people even compare Nowitzki to Gasol at this point? Other than the fact that they're both white, they have nothing in common. Nowitzki makes nowhere near the all around impact that Gasol, or Duncan or Howard do. You know, true big men that can do more than shoot/score. Nowitzki, Bosh and Stoudemire are all a cut below those three because they're all one dimensional (though Bosh can also rebound).

[21_Blessings]

Give Dirk Kobe to work with and he would look better. Dirk looks just as good as Pau without Kobe.

Dirk is a shitty defender with no post play and becomes worthless without the ball in his hands. Everything Pau is not.

[peskypesky]

Nope. When Gasol had to lead a team he couldn't even win a playoff game Dirk has led his team to the Finals.

yep.

[DPG21920]

Stop talking. Dirk was the MVP of the league, everything Pau is not. He is not a shitty defender.

[dallasmavsnfuego214]

Dirk is a shitty defender with no post play and becomes worthless without the ball in his hands. Everything Pau is not.

Why do you post? Seriously

Nobody ever listens to you

[Red Hawk #21]

He's not a PF, he's a C. I don't know why they list him at 7-0, he's clearly 7-1. There is no such thing as a 7-1 PF, therefore he's a C.

Here's what people forget about him as he continues to feast off not being the focus of opposition's defensive game plans and plays routinely against 6-9 PF's: He's a career long choker in high pressure moments, a certified cream puff who get's discouraged when he's pushed around (which is far too rare; watch the Celtics scare the living day light's out of him again, though) and has proven without a shadow of a doubt that he CAN'T carry a team.

I'm not trying to take nothing away from him, but it's funny how people forget all of his shortcomings and get caught up in slobbering over him. Every time a white guy can play in this league, this is what people do.

At this moment, is he playing better than Howard and Duncan? Sure. But, Ginobili was playing better than Bryant for almost half a season; it doesn't make him a better player. I'd still take a healthy, rested Duncan over Gasol. I don't care what anyone says. If the Spurs sign Splitter and are able to finally limit Duncan's workload, I hope these two teams meet in the playoffs next season. Even at 35 (by then), I still think if his knees hold up, Duncan would out duel Gasol.

:rollin:rollin:rollin:lmao

[jag]

He's not a PF, he's a C. I don't know why they list him at 7-0, he's clearly 7-1. There is no such thing as a 7-1 PF, therefore he's a C.



:lmao
:lmao

[Ghazi]

21blessings himself said last year Dirk deserved 1st team over Pau, and that Pau's been overrated ever since becoming a Laker :lol

He's just so scared of next years Mavs that he has to downplay Dirk's brilliance :lmao

[Roddy Beaubois]

Stop talking. Dirk was the MVP of the league, everything Pau is not. He is not a shitty defender.

[DPG21920]

Pau Gasol has become a great player. He has always been very, very good, but now, in this role, you are seeing a very talented player in a perfect scenario.

[21_Blessings]

I actually said I'd take Pau over Dirk on the Lakers. And Dirk did deserve 1st team All-regular-season.

[ezau]

Dirk won the MVP and carried his team to the Finals and almost a championship on his own. Dirk was two wins away from a championship while Pau didn't even win a single game when he was the top dog in his team.

[Venti Quattro]

Pau Gasol is a better fit in LA and thus the Kobe and Pau connection is working because Ka-PAU is not ball-dominant unlike Dirk.

End of story.

[jag]

Dirk and Pau are better at very different things...it's hard to compare. It is, however, obvious that Gasol can't lead a team, something Nowitzki has always done.

[HarlemHeat37]

Yes, Pau has really benefited from playing in this great system with other great players..does that change anything though?..should other players be discredited for playing in systems that are better suited for them?..

Pau in Memphis was playing with a relatively poor supporting cast and wasn't in his prime yet..clear difference IMO..

[TD 21]

:rollin:rollin:rollin:lmao

I'm not sure why this is funny. By every statistical measure, Duncan outplayed Gasol this season. People have just decided that because the Spurs wore Duncan down in the first half of the season and because his birth certificate says that by NBA standards he's old, that that automatically means Gasol is better. I don't buy it. Next season, if he get's proper rest/help, you'll see what I mean.

I like what Stoudemire said, essentially alluding to the fact that this softy has become arrogant since being the clear cut 2nd option and being surrounded by two of the best bigs in the league. Funny, he didn't puff his chest out when the Grizzlies were being swept out of the playoffs on 3 occasions.

[Pelicans78]

Gasol's biggest problem is he's not strong enough to dominate on a nightly basis. He's greatly skilled, but he can be outphysical'd at times. He's purely a skill player without alot of strength or explosion.

[ezau]

Pau Gasol is a better fit in LA and thus the Kobe and Pau connection is working because Ka-PAU is not ball-dominant unlike Dirk.

End of story.

:toast

[21_Blessings]

Dirk and Pau are better at very different things...it's hard to compare. It is, however, obvious that Gasol can't lead a team, something Nowitzki has always done.


Dirk has lead his team to nothing but failure and disappointment.

[Shastafarian]

I'll bump this thread when the finals start. Amare =/= Garnett.

[BUMP]

Pau Gasol is in a perfect scenario in LA but lets not get carried away.

We saw what happens when he was the 1st option and it wasn't pretty.

[Roddy Beaubois]

Pau Gasol is a better fit in LA

I guess I can see that angle.


PAU is not ball-dominant unlike Dirk.



what the fuck.......

[HarlemHeat37]

This isn't Dirk's career vs. Pau's career..this is about the better player at the moment..it's not a big gap or anything, it's arguable, but I don't see how it isn't Gasol at the moment..

Again, are people really going to discredit Gasol for being unable to win with Mike Miller/James Posey/Bonzi Wells as his #2 best player at different times during those runs?..

[Venti Quattro]

I love Pau but I won't be too quick on judgements. After all, he's up against a prime-time star scrub in Amare.

[spizzle_tronk]

Pau just fits in better with his team and is a better passer, he just seems way more efficient than Dirk.

[DPG21920]

HH, is Josh Howard & Terry really that much better than Pau's team in Memphis? Enough talent gap to have one go to a finals and one not win a single playoff game?

You are right, Pau has gotten better, but part of that is because he was allowed to develop all his strengths in this system.

If you put any really good player in a perfect system, they will excel.

[jag]

Dirk has lead his team to nothing but failure and disappointment.

He lead his team out of the first round.

[DPG21920]

Better player at the moment is Dirk. If you put Dirk on the Lakers, they are no worse. If you put Pau on the Mavs, they are worse.

[Venti Quattro]

what the fuck.......

Kidd runs the plays but who gets majority of the shots in Dallas?

[ginobili's bald spot]

Pau Gasol is in a perfect scenario in LA but lets not get carried away.

We saw what happens when he was the 1st option and it wasn't pretty.

Agreed. Pau on the Lakers might be the best power forward but I didn't hear anybody talking like this about him when he had to be the man.

[TD 21]

Harlem, don't make excuses. Those Grizzlies teams may have lacked star power, but they were deep, well coached and should have been good enough to at least win one playoff game. The problem is their best player couldn't carry a team. Don't give me this "he wasn't in his prime nonsense". Duncan and Garnett carrying teams on their backs at the same age. Even internationally, until recently Spain would usually come up short in big games. Why? Because Gasol couldn't get it done when it mattered most.

But all that being said, there is no argument for the one dimensional Nowitzki over Gasol. The one thing I'll give Nowitzki is he's been a better lead player than Gasol was, but it's not like he's been Duncan or O'Neal in that respect, either.

[45 bank shot]

I still believe that Duncan in his prime>> Gasol in his prime

[IronMexican]

Dirk is still better. The only difference is that he's paired with a guy named Kome

Nice and original nickname, yo. How many assists did Kome have tonight?

[21_Blessings]

Pau just fits in better with his team and is a better passer, he just seems way more efficient than Dirk.

And a better post player, finisher, rebounder and defender. Way better 2nd fiddle to Kobe than Dirk could ever be.

Yes, Pau did lay a goose-egg in Memphis. But at least he was choking on his own dick while his 1/2 seeded team was losing to inferior 7 and 8 seeds every year.

[Pelicans78]

I still believe that Duncan in his prime>> Gasol in his prime

I think everyone in the world believes that.

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't feel like Dirk has ever had a legit #2 on his team, but Josh Howard and Terry are both easily better than Mike Miller or James Posey..

Again, I'm not arguing careers here..Dirk has obviously had a much better career..

At this moment, the way Gasol has played as Laker and considering how well he fits in their system, he's a better player than Nowitzki IMO..I don't think people realize how dominant Gasol has been in this playoff run..he leads the Lakers in all advanced stat categories, has been the most efficient player on the team and has been one of their 2 best defenders in the playoffs..

[BUMP]

This isn't Dirk's career vs. Pau's career..this is about the better player at the moment..it's not a big gap or anything, it's arguable, but I don't see how it isn't Gasol at the moment..

Again, are people really going to discredit Gasol for being unable to win with Mike Miller/James Posey/Bonzi Wells as his #2 best player at different times during those runs?..

I'm going to discredit him for not winning a game. He went 0-12. And those guys weren't too big of scrubs either. There's no way in hell Dirk would've gone 0-12. He would've won a couple of games by himself atleast

[Ghazi]

Don't mind 21 guys... he's just upset Bynum found a way to have a negative +/- in a blowout win :lol.

Why should anything he says be taken seriously given everything he's said about Glassy? :lol

poor 21 ... so scared :( :( jeez...

[Shastafarian]

I think everyone in the world believes that.
The upcoming troll job should be fun.

[TD 21]

I still believe that Duncan in his prime>> Gasol in his prime

It goes without saying. Why even bring it up? No sane person could even attempt to argue otherwise. Gasol isn't nearly as good as Garnett was in his prime, let alone Duncan.

[jag]

I still believe that Duncan in his prime>> Gasol in his prime

I don't know anyone in their right mind that would argue otherwise.

[Cane]

Pau Gasol's the best overall big man in the league. His confidence is sky high and there's nothing he can't do. Only thing that would make me change this opinion is if he disappears against Boston but with the way he's been playing....doesn't seem likely.

Dwight Howard plays like he's mentally retarded since he has trouble just staying on the damn court and taking players consistently 1v1.

Dirk's a jumpshooter and doesn't get the boards and big man presence you need.

Amar'e is to defense like Howard is to offense and that might be a stretch since Stoudemire looked like a pylon out there tonight.

Duncan and KG are old and no longer truly consistent. 50% FT wtf for TD. WTF!

Oden and Yao are injured as hell but a healthy Yao is damn good.

Bosh and Boozer are undersized compared to Pau which is enough to put 'em under his value.

Man this big man era sucks ass but the Lakers are stacked. Now ya know why Coach Pop and Co. got pissed as hell that they all missed out on Gasol.

[Pelicans78]

Dirk might not fit well in the triangle, but imagine trying to guard Kobe/Dirk in the pick n roll?

[DPG21920]

I don't feel like Dirk has ever had a legit #2 on his team, but Josh Howard and Terry are both easily better than Mike Miller or James Posey..

Again, I'm not arguing careers here..Dirk has obviously had a much better career..

At this moment, the way Gasol has played as Laker and considering how well he fits in their system, he's a better player than Nowitzki IMO..I don't think people realize how dominant Gasol has been in this playoff run..he leads the Lakers in all advanced stat categories, has been the most efficient player on the team and has been one of their 2 best defenders in the playoffs..

Enough of a difference to take one team to a finals vs 0 PO wins?

The question is simple. All else being equal, taking systems out of it, who is better right now? I say Dirk. It is not some gigantic gap, but I still think it is clear.

[BUMP]

Gasol>Duncan in their primes

[Roddy Beaubois]

Kidd runs the plays but who gets majority of the shots in Dallas?

Are you shitting me? Dirk is far and away the best player on the Mavs, so of course hes going to take most of the shots. If he had some better players he wouldn't need to take so much.

And Im not sure you know what the phrase ball dominate means.

[jag]

Pau Gasol's the best overall big man in the league. His confidence is sky high and there's nothing he can't do.


Do you get commission for every new fan Gasol gets? Wtf Billy Mays is this?

[HarlemHeat37]

I'm going to discredit him for not winning a game. He went 0-12. And those guys weren't too big of scrubs either. There's no way in hell Dirk would've gone 0-12. He would've won a couple of games by himself atleast

The current version of Gasol, which is his prime + the current system he's in would have won a few games in the playoffs..nothing more since the supporting cast was too weak, but he's obviously a better player now than he was back then..

I do give the system credit..similar to how Nash found a perfect system, Gasol has too..who's to say Nowitzki isn't in a perfect system and hasn't been the entire time?..


Harlem, don't make excuses. Those Grizzlies teams may have lacked star power, but they were deep, well coached and should have been good enough to at least win one playoff game. The problem is their best player couldn't carry a team. Don't give me this "he wasn't in his prime nonsense". Duncan and Garnett carrying teams on their backs at the same age. Even internationally, until recently Spain would usually come up short in big games. Why? Because Gasol couldn't get it done when it mattered most.

But all that being said, there is no argument for the one dimensional Nowitzki over Gasol. The one thing I'll give Nowitzki is he's been a better lead player than Gasol was, but it's not like he's been Duncan or O'Neal in that respect, either.

Gasol wasn't in his prime back then, but even now in his prime, he obviously isn't on the same level as a prime Duncan or prime Garnett, 2 of the 3 best PFs of all-time IMO..

Nowitzki isn't on the same level as a prime Duncan or prime Garnett either though..

[21_Blessings]

Dirk was never good enough to be a true number 1 option. You aren't winning shit in the NBA when you're go-to guy is a 6'10 one-trick-jumpshooting pony.

[Shastafarian]

The upcoming troll job should be fun.


Gasol>Duncan in their primes

[TD 21]

Everyone is undersized compared to Gasol. The guy is a 7-1 fucking C being played by a defenseless 6-8 1/2 - 6-9 Stoudemire. If anything, he should have had well over 30. I knew the Gasol slobbering, already ample, would get completely out of control during this series.

I'm not trying to take nothing away from him. He's playing extremely well at the moment and is a very good player; but he isn't great. Let's keep things in perspective. Collins is sitting there acting like he's never seen a better big man.

Someone give me the argument for Nowitzki over Gasol. To me, he's not in the same class as Howard, Duncan, Gasol. They impact the game in so many more ways.

[DPG21920]

^ A perfect system would have Dirk with an elite player like Kobe.

[ezau]

Harlem, don't make excuses. Those Grizzlies teams may have lacked star power, but they were deep, well coached and should have been good enough to at least win one playoff game. The problem is their best player couldn't carry a team. Don't give me this "he wasn't in his prime nonsense". Duncan and Garnett carrying teams on their backs at the same age. Even internationally, until recently Spain would usually come up short in big games. Why? Because Gasol couldn't get it done when it mattered most.

But all that being said, there is no argument for the one dimensional Nowitzki over Gasol. The one thing I'll give Nowitzki is he's been a better lead player than Gasol was, but it's not like he's been Duncan or O'Neal in that respect, either.

Exactly, I remember when Spain lost againstRussia in Spain. what the fuck was that?

[Quit Hatin']

when we say kobe is good they say "naw he sucks, he got gasol". when we say gasol is good they say "naw he sucks, he got kobe".

[ezau]

Nice and original nickname, yo. How many assists did Kome have tonight?

I'm actually giving credit to Kome, brah.

[SomeCallMeTim]

He's not a PF, he's a C. I don't know why they list him at 7-0, he's clearly 7-1. There is no such thing as a 7-1 PF, therefore he's a C.

Well, let's see. Bynum is at least 7-1 and starts at center... does the opening tip, guards the opposing center... and Pau guards the opposing PF.

Where in the NBA rulebook does it say that you can't have a 7-1 PF? Same place it says you can't have a 6-9 PG?


Here's what people forget about him as he continues to feast off not being the focus of opposition's defensive game plans and plays routinely against 6-9 PF's

Wait, I thought you said he was a C? So why is he being guarded by "6-9 PF's"?


He's a career long choker in high pressure moments, a certified cream puff who get's discouraged when he's pushed around (which is far too rare; watch the Celtics scare the living day light's out of him again, though) and has proven without a shadow of a doubt that he CAN'T carry a team.

Yeah, he played so terribly last year that he gave Kobe a run for Playoffs MVP on their way to a title.

And who cares if he can't "carry" a team? He doesn't need to... LA is the perfect situation for him.


I'm not trying to take nothing away from him, but it's funny how people forget all of his shortcomings and get caught up in slobbering over him. Every time a white guy can play in this league, this is what people do.

Oh, you just had to go there, didn't you?


At this moment, is he playing better than Howard and Duncan? Sure. But, Ginobili was playing better than Bryant for almost half a season; it doesn't make him a better player.

Um... a player playing better than another player for a prolonged period of time is precisely what makes a better player.


I'd still take a healthy, rested Duncan over Gasol. I don't care what anyone says.

Too bad a "healthy, rested" Duncan seems to be gone since about 2008.

[Bob Lanier]

I'm going to discredit him for not winning a game. He went 0-12. And those guys weren't too big of scrubs either. There's no way in hell Dirk would've gone 0-12. He would've won a couple of games by himself atleast
Dirk Nowitzki would not have taken those Grizzlies teams to the playoffs at all, so it's a moot point.

[Ghazi]

when we say kobe is good they say "naw he sucks, he got gasol". when we say gasol is good they say "naw he sucks, he got kobe".

Kobe's a top 5 player and Gasol's a top 15 player

Dirk's a top 10 player who doesn't have a top 50 teammate at this moment.

Gonna change next year though :smokin


<-----

[ezau]

I don't feel like Dirk has ever had a legit #2 on his team, but Josh Howard and Terry are both easily better than Mike Miller or James Posey..

Again, I'm not arguing careers here..Dirk has obviously had a much better career..

At this moment, the way Gasol has played as Laker and considering how well he fits in their system, he's a better player than Nowitzki IMO..I don't think people realize how dominant Gasol has been in this playoff run..he leads the Lakers in all advanced stat categories, has been the most efficient player on the team and has been one of their 2 best defenders in the playoffs..

That Grizzlies team had Shane Battier and Hubie Brown isn't a slouch either.

[Pelicans78]

Garnett isn't anywhere near Duncan either. He couldn't take over games in Minnesota during the playoffs. He wasn't a dominant post player because of his frame. He didn't do crap in Minnesota except lose in the first round.

Not sure why everyone regards him so highly. He's great defensively obviously, but offensively can't come close to Duncan.

[HarlemHeat37]

It's much more complicated to utilize Dirk in a system like they have done with Gasol though..

You guys are underrating what he brings to the Lakers..

Again, Nowitzki is an average passer, decent rebounder and an average defender..

Gasol is an elite passer, a good rebounder and a good defender..the Lakers can utilize him in SO many ways..while the system has helped him, he's clearly a huge part of the system..he helps everybody else just as much as they help him, including Kobe..there's a reason he's leading the Lakers in all major statistical categories and in overall impact so far in the playoffs..

The Lakers entire offense would change if you replace Gasol with Nowitzki, and I don't see how it would be better TBH..Dirk simply isn't even nearly as versatile as Gasol..

[Roddy Beaubois]

A perfect system would have Dirk with a player who can constantly score 20+ and can actually play defense.
For some reason Cubans thing is to get one-dimensional players on the down slide of their careers. Never a guy who can play both sides of the floor.

Our giant hole this year was perimeter defense. Not sure how we didn't see this one coming when we give Kidd (:lol) Terry (:lmao) and JJ (:depressed) major minutes. All of them can't stop anybody. Thats why George fucking Hill blew his load all over them.

[Roddy Beaubois]

Dirk's a top 10 player who doesn't have a top 50 teammate at this moment.


yup

[Bob Lanier]

I don't feel like Dirk has ever had a legit #2 on his team, but Josh Howard and Terry are both easily better than Mike Miller or James Posey.

That Grizzlies team had Shane Battier:rollin

[DPG21920]

Even in a perfect system for Pau it is debatable if he is better than Dirk. That right there shows you something.

Give Dirk a Kobe level player on the Mavs and things are nearly as close imo.

[Ginobilly]

Everyone is undersized compared to Gasol. The guy is a 7-1 fucking C being played by a defenseless 6-8 1/2 - 6-9 Stoudemire. If anything, he should have had well over 30. I knew the Gasol slobbering, already ample, would get completely out of control during this series.

I'm not trying to take nothing away from him. He's playing extremely well at the moment and is a very good player; but he isn't great. Let's keep things in perspective. Collins is sitting there acting like he's never seen a better big man.

Someone give me the argument for Nowitzki over Gasol. To me, he's not in the same class as Howard, Duncan, Gasol. They impact the game in so many more ways.

Thank god we don't have Bill Walton announcing the games anymore. He would of been having a basketball orgasm over Gasol's play. "What a master, what a mind" :lmao

[TD 21]

Well, let's see. Bynum is at least 7-1 and starts at center... does the opening tip, guards the opposing center... and Pau guards the opposing PF.

Where in the NBA rulebook does it say that you can't have a 7-1 PF? Same place it says you can't have a 6-9 PG?



Wait, I thought you said he was a C? So why is he being guarded by "6-9 PF's"?



Yeah, he played so terribly last year that he gave Kobe a run for Playoffs MVP on their way to a title.

And who cares if he can't "carry" a team? He doesn't need to... LA is the perfect situation for him.



Oh, you just had to go there, didn't you?



Um... a player playing better than another player for a prolonged period of time is precisely what makes a better player.



Too bad a "healthy, rested" Duncan seems to be gone since about 2008.

Are you retarded? He's a C playing PF; how hard is that to understand? I know you're going to bring up Duncan now. But, even when Duncan played at PF primarily, he was guarded by the opposition's best big man a lot of the time. Teams can't do that with Gasol a lot because Bynum is so big, he has to be accounted for a lot of times by the opposition's best big.

He's being guarded by 6-9 PF's because he starts at PF and teams can't afford (generally) to put those already undersized players against Bynum, who's not only at least as tall as Gasol, but much stronger. Gasol can use his length against them; Bynum can use his length AND strength.

Never said he played terribly; I said he routinely has choked in the clutch in his career. He clearly get's discouraged when he get's knocked around, a la Carter.

When you're trying to claim someone is as great as people are making Gasol out to be right now, you damn sure better be able to carry a team; he never has been.

Yeah, I did have to go there, because it's true. Every time a white guy can play in this league, he becomes overrated. You don't think white guys covering the game don't deep down love seeing a white guy succeed? I'm not saying they're racists, it's just human nature.

That's not at all what makes a player better. Ginobili may have been playing better than Bryant, but I'm not stupid enough to think he's better than him. The same thing applies to Gasol and Duncan. Stats don't tell everything, but look back at the season they just had and tell me it's so preposterous to think Duncan is still better. It's just not popular opinion anymore.

Yeah, because the Spurs haven't gotten him proper help, which means he's playing far too arduous minutes for a player his age and with the amount of mileage he's accumulated.

[Ghazi]

Even in a perfect system for Pau it is debatable if he is better than Dirk. That right there shows you something.

Give Dirk a Kobe level player on the Mavs and things are nearly as close imo.

2010-2011... stay tuned :smokin

Also Dirk's 31... Pau's 29. Dirk's prime years were probably from 05-07. So Pau's absolute best is only arguable against Dirk's slightly past prime years. Pau's best v Dirk's best isn't even a debate for those who have a clue.

The rebounding difference between the two was only significant this year when Dirk was 31.

Anyway, Pau spends 2/3 of his PT at the C position. It's more appropriate to compare him to Dwight Howard, Andrew Bogut, and Tim Duncan than Dirk anyway.

[BUMP]

Mike Miller, James Posey, Bonzi Wells, Shane Battier, and Jason Williams back then were not bad players at all.

In 2004-05

Miller: 13 ppg
Posey: 12 ppg
Wells: 12 ppg
Williams: 10 ppg
Battier: 10 ppg

For Dallas

Finley: 15 ppg
Terry: 13 ppg
Howard: 12 ppg
Harris: 5 ppg

Was Dallas really that much better?

[TD 21]

Thank god we don't have Bill Walton announcing the games anymore. He would of been having a basketball orgasm over Gasol's play. "What a master, what a mind" :lmao

:lol

Walton was the man. Entertaining, hilarious. Not the cookie cutter types of today, forcing out their repetitive sayings (Jackson) or nagging viewers to death (Van Gundy).

You're right though, he'd go nuts over Gasol. A tall, skinny, mop headed white guy with a high skill level/IQ? He's probably his current favorite player. I know he used to love Nash and Duncan.

[21_Blessings]

Mike Miller, James Posey, Bonzi Wells, Shane Battier, and Jason Williams back then were not bad players at all.

In 2004-05

Miller: 13 ppg
Posey: 12 ppg
Wells: 12 ppg
Williams: 10 ppg
Battier: 10 ppg

For Dallas

Finley: 15 ppg
Terry: 13 ppg
Howard: 12 ppg
Harris: 5 ppg

Was Dallas really that much better?

Yes Dallas was much better. But those Memphis teams were deep. full of experienced vets and very well coached.

[BillWalton]

These 2 European big men have transcended today's NBA landscape.

You can't go wrong with either of them.

Dirk Nowitzki, just a magician with the ball. So fundamental, so precise, is there anything this man can't do?

And then on the flip side how about Pau Gasol? The eloquence he displays on the court is just unmatched. His footwork is just picturesque like a jedi on the court. So brilliant playing along with the Black Mamba.

:elephant:elephant:elephant

[SomeCallMeTim]

I'm not sure why this is funny. By every statistical measure, Duncan outplayed Gasol this season.

Well except for the fact that Gasol shoots significantly better, gets more assists, plays more minutes, is a better offensive rebounder, and is playing at a much higher level than Duncan in the POs, yes, by every statistical measure, Duncan outplayed Gasol this season.

[ezau]

Even in a perfect system for Pau it is debatable if he is better than Dirk. That right there shows you something.

Give Dirk a Kobe level player on the Mavs and things are nearly as close imo.

Agreed

[Bob Lanier]

even when Duncan played at PF primarily
Which he never did

he was guarded by the opposition's best big man a lot of the time.
No he wasn't. That hasn't happened since Russell guarded Wilt.

Teams can't do that with Gasol a lot because Bynum is so big
Yes they can.

he has to be accounted for a lot of times by the opposition's best big.
Bullshit.

I'm not saying they're racists
Yes you are.

but look back at the season they just had and tell me it's so preposterous to think Duncan is still better.
You also said Duncan would outduel Gasol, which hasn't happened in about 4 years. At some point "just playing worse" does become "just is worse."

[Bob Lanier]

And since when is Mike Fratello a good coach? He's a frittering disciplinarian, almost a clone of Rick Carlisle.

[HarlemHeat37]

Mike Miller, James Posey, Bonzi Wells, Shane Battier, and Jason Williams back then were not bad players at all.

In 2004-05

Miller: 13 ppg
Posey: 12 ppg
Wells: 12 ppg
Williams: 10 ppg
Battier: 10 ppg

For Dallas

Finley: 15 ppg
Terry: 13 ppg
Howard: 12 ppg
Harris: 5 ppg

Was Dallas really that much better?

The Grizzlies had ONE player that season that could create his own shot, Jason Williams, which is sad..everybody else on the team was assisted on 60-65% or more of their individual offense..

The Mavs had 4 players other than Dirk that were less than 60%, 3 of them less than 50%, all able to create their own shots..Terry, Harris, Howard and Stackhouse..

The Grizzlies had a much more team-oriented system, part of it due to the system, part of it due to the fact that they had no other players that could create their own shots..

[milkshakeballa]

It's much more complicated to utilize Dirk in a system like they have done with Gasol though..

You guys are underrating what he brings to the Lakers..

Again, Nowitzki is an average passer, decent rebounder and an average defender..

Gasol is an elite passer, a good rebounder and a good defender..the Lakers can utilize him in SO many ways..while the system has helped him, he's clearly a huge part of the system..he helps everybody else just as much as they help him, including Kobe..there's a reason he's leading the Lakers in all major statistical categories and in overall impact so far in the playoffs..

The Lakers entire offense would change if you replace Gasol with Nowitzki, and I don't see how it would be better TBH..Dirk simply isn't even nearly as versatile as Gasol..


Great post Harlem. :toast

[ezau]

You also said Duncan would outduel Gasol, which hasn't happened in about 4 years. At some point "just playing worse" does become "just is worse."

did you watch the game between the Lakers and Spurs when Hill got injured? Guess what, Duncan decided to go 2004 on Gasol during that game.

[Ginobilly]

The Grizzlies had ONE player that season that could create his own shot, Jason Williams, which is sad..everybody else on the team was assisted on 60-65% or more of their individual offense..

The Mavs had 4 players other than Dirk that were less than 60%, 3 of them less than 50%, all able to create their own shots..Terry, Harris, Howard and Stackhouse..

The Grizzlies had a much more team-oriented system, part of it due to the system, part of it due to the fact that they had no other players that could create their own shots..

If anything those Gasol Memphis teams overachieved big time and had no business being in the playoffs. I'll take Finley, Howard, Terry, and stackhouse over what Gasol had in Memphis. All four of Dirks teammates could go for 20+ points, while only Bonzi was the only legit threat Gasol had that could go for 20+.

[namlook]

Dirk won the MVP and carried his team to the Finals and almost a championship on his own. Dirk was two wins away from a championship while Pau didn't even win a single game when he was the top dog in his team.

Finally something I can agree with. Pau is the ultimate #2 guy. He's like a Pippen. He's not a guy who who is an alpha dog or who is ever going to win an NBA championship as the #1 guy. Then again Dirk might not ever be that guy either, but Dirk is more naturally a lead player than Pau is.


Well except for the fact that Gasol shoots significantly better, gets more assists, plays more minutes, is a better offensive rebounder, and is playing at a much higher level than Duncan in the POs, yes, by every statistical measure, Duncan outplayed Gasol this season.

Duncan at his best was better than what we have seen from Pau in his career, but as of right now Pau has shown in these playoffs he has officially passed Duncan.

[D. Nile]

Yeh just wait until he has to play Duncan. He's in for a cheeky awakening I dae believe. That's if yeh 're jammy dooze to get the chance. Those ruddy poofs are a waste of sperm and egg.

Toodle pip!

[D. Nile]

Yeh just wait until he has to play Duncan. He's in for a cheeky awakening I dae believe. That's if yeh 're jammy dooze to get the chance. Those ruddy poofs are a waste of sperm and egg.

Toodle pip!

[midnightpulp]

Yeh just wait until he has to play Duncan. He's in for a cheeky awakening I dae believe. That's if yeh 're jammy dooze to get the chance. Those ruddy poofs are a waste of sperm and egg.

Toodle pip!

Culburn, this troll sucks.

Retire it.

[TD 21]

Which he never did

No he wasn't. That hasn't happened since Russell guarded Wilt.

Yes they can.

Bullshit.

Yes you are.

You also said Duncan would outduel Gasol, which hasn't happened in about 4 years. At some point "just playing worse" does become "just is worse."

Yeah, he did. Are you referring to the fact that on offense he always played in the low post, even with Robinson around? He still played PF defensively.

Yeah, he was. Because Robinson was no longer a dominant force, a lot of the time Duncan was being guarded by the opposition's best defensive big man.

No, they can't. Do you even watch games? The Suns are doing it by putting Lopez on Gasol, but a lot of the time teams have to put their C on Bynum, which frees up Gasol to play against 6-9 guys; he's 7-1. That's a huge advantage.

No, I'm not saying they're racists. Why would you tell me what I'm doing?

4 years? You're clearly not watching the games, just another clown who's opinion is formulated based off of what others say. If Duncan noticeably drops another level next season, then Gasol will be better. But the overall body of work from Duncan this season, I'd still take it over Gasol and I don't give a fuck who agrees with it, unlike you.

SomeCallMeTim, Gasol out did Duncan in certain categories because Jackson runs his key players into the ground. Duncan was more efficient, though.

[SomeCallMeTim]

Are you retarded? He's a C playing PF; how hard is that to understand? I know you're going to bring up Duncan now. But, even when Duncan played at PF primarily, he was guarded by the opposition's best big man a lot of the time. Teams can't do that with Gasol a lot because Bynum is so big, he has to be accounted for a lot of times by the opposition's best big.

He's being guarded by 6-9 PF's because he starts at PF and teams can't afford (generally) to put those already undersized players against Bynum, who's not only at least as tall as Gasol, but much stronger. Gasol can use his length against them; Bynum can use his length AND strength.

What does any of this have to do with what you originally wrote - that "There is no such thing as a 7-1 PF, therefore he's a C." Your statement makes no sense. Gasol does everything PFs are supposed to do these days - he guards opposing PFs, he rebounds, he blocks shots, he plays on the block and he will hit 18 foot jumpers. It doesn't matter if he's 6-4 like Blair or 7-1 as he's listed. He can and does play a lot of minutes at the PF position.


Never said he played terribly; I said he routinely has choked in the clutch in his career. He clearly get's discouraged when he get's knocked around, a la Carter.

And? KG was a "choker" for most of his career. Pierce had never won anything and therefore was considered by many to be somehow deficient. 2008 changed all that and proved that neither was true. Same thing happened for Gasol in 2009. He played great on the way to a title.


When you're trying to claim someone is as great as people are making Gasol out to be right now, you damn sure better be able to carry a team; he never has been.

Who's making him out to be anything other than one of the best big guys in the league right now? At their peaks, TD and KG are both better than Pau, but those days are past. Howard is a better player IMO but has some serious flaws in his game that can cause major problems when they're exploited by teams in the POs.


Yeah, I did have to go there, because it's true. Every time a white guy can play in this league, he becomes overrated. You don't think white guys covering the game don't deep down love seeing a white guy succeed? I'm not saying they're racists, it's just human nature.

Please. Gasol doesn't get a quarter of the attention, fame, and credit as Kobe among most fans. Gasol deserves at least as much credit as Kobe for the team's success... two straight Finals, 2 wins away from a third straight... and you think this guy's "overrated"?


That's not at all what makes a player better. Ginobili may have been playing better than Bryant, but I'm not stupid enough to think he's better than him.

Why? For long stretches in his career, Ginobili has been a better player than Kobe. Don't sell Manu short, when healthy, he is an incredibly productive player.


The same thing applies to Gasol and Duncan. Stats don't tell everything, but look back at the season they just had and tell me it's so preposterous to think Duncan is still better. It's just not popular opinion anymore.

OK, you're making the assertion here, how are you backing it up? What in Duncan's stats indicates that he's the better player?


Yeah, because the Spurs haven't gotten him proper help, which means he's playing far too arduous minutes for a player his age and with the amount of mileage he's accumulated.

Come on, the guy is playing fewer than 32 MPG these days, what do you want him playing, 20 minutes per night?

[ElNono]

To say that 'this system' favors Pau is asinine. The system is only as good as the talent to put it in place. Pau also played an inside-out game in Memphis, the difference is that he didn't have one of the league's top players (Kobe) roaming the perimeter and two towers (Odom/Bynum) next to him in the paint commanding way too much attention.
Those are all guys you must absolutely put a guy on and most of the time send help too.
This Lakers team is stacked and Pau is simply doing a great job of exploiting that fact. You also have to give him credit because unlike Bynum, he understands the talent that's around him and is a willing passer.

That said, you give Dirk two 7 footers as versatile as Bynum/Odom and a top 5 perimeter player in the league like Kobe/Lebron/Wade and all of a sudden the Mavs 'system' will look incredibly good too.

[Roddy Beaubois]

Lets not make a rash decision based on Pau owning Amare.
Lets see how he does against Boston.

[Ghazi]

It's much more complicated to utilize Dirk in a system like they have done with Gasol though..

You guys are underrating what he brings to the Lakers..

Again, Nowitzki is an average passer, decent rebounder and an average defender..

Gasol is an elite passer, a good rebounder and a good defender..the Lakers can utilize him in SO many ways..while the system has helped him, he's clearly a huge part of the system..he helps everybody else just as much as they help him, including Kobe..there's a reason he's leading the Lakers in all major statistical categories and in overall impact so far in the playoffs..

The Lakers entire offense would change if you replace Gasol with Nowitzki, and I don't see how it would be better TBH..Dirk simply isn't even nearly as versatile as Gasol..

How well a player fits into a system doesn't necessarily make someone a better player. There are many situations I can imagine where you can swap two players and both teams would become worse, and that could be the case here... but I could see how the Lakers offense (which wasn't spectacular this year anyway) could be better with Dirk in place of Gasol... Dirk is one of the most efficient players ever.

I will say, the one downside of Dirk in place of Pau on the Lakers is that Dirk can't play C like Pau, which would increase reliance on that bum Glassnum.

How would Gasol fare having to take 18-20 shots on a team with poor slashing and unreliable flawed offensive players like Dampwood/Kidd/Butler/Marion?

I'll tip my hat to Gasol if he clearly outplays Dirk in the 2011 Western Conference Finals... what he does against terrible defensive PF's like Boozer/Stoudamire and undersized frontlines without true centers does not impress me to a point where I can consider him better than... well the best PF in the game.

Finally: Pau is a center, so this thread title is flawed.

[SomeCallMeTim]

Culburn, this troll sucks.

Retire it.

:lol Gotta disagree with you here. I like this one. But then I'm an Anglophile... shocking I know given my username/avatar.

[monosylab1k]

Time to stop denying, this guy is dominant. He can defend, pass and seems to have a counter post move to every kind of defense played on him. He also seems like a good teammate. Much respect to him. :toast

lame

[SomeCallMeTim]

Even in a perfect system for Pau it is debatable if he is better than Dirk. That right there shows you something.

Agreed. That said, I'd never trade Pau for Dirk... Pau is just the perfect fit for this LA team. Not taking anything away from Dirk, in the right situation he's just as deadly in his own way.


Give Dirk a Kobe level player on the Mavs and things are nearly as close imo.

He desperately needs a tough, mobile defensive C behind him, offense optional. Boards, blocks, defense. Ibaka is the current prototype, Camby, Okafor (when healthy), Chandler (when healthy) other examples.

Dampier is OK back there -- I'm actually higher on him than most -- but he's just not mobile enough. I don't know enough about Haywood's defensive game these days to know whether he can do it.

[monosylab1k]

Welcome to weeks ago..

Gasol has been the Lakers best player in the playoffs so far, and he's obviously the best PF in the NBA now that Tim is past his prime, this has been apparent for a while..

The true test will be how he responds vs. Boston..last time he saw them, he got neutered..'Sheed and Garnett will be trying to mentally fuck him..

Sucks for Pau that he has to carry that dead weight in Bynum up front..they look a lot better when Odom is out there, as usual..

lame

[D. Nile]

Culburn, this troll sucks.

Retire it.

Mucca, why ye must be hatin? Can't we all just hae a go at the olde meat curtains and unite against the poofs trying to take over this gaff? Afraid thou am that ye may be one of those uphill gardeners.

Toodle pip!

[Ghazi]

Haywood is an adequate C for Dirk.

Dirk just needs, in his own words, a guy who is explosive off the dribble, that can create his own shot:

"You'd love to get somebody that can be explosive off the dribble, can create his own shot at any given time," Nowitzki said. "Obviously, there are a couple out there -- LeBron, D-Wade -- one of those guys. A wing player that can create his own shot, score at will."

And we gettin that

<------------

[monosylab1k]

Everyone is undersized compared to Gasol. The guy is a 7-1 fucking C being played by a defenseless 6-8 1/2 - 6-9 Stoudemire. If anything, he should have had well over 30. I knew the Gasol slobbering, already ample, would get completely out of control during this series.

I'm not trying to take nothing away from him. He's playing extremely well at the moment and is a very good player; but he isn't great. Let's keep things in perspective. Collins is sitting there acting like he's never seen a better big man.

Someone give me the argument for Nowitzki over Gasol. To me, he's not in the same class as Howard, Duncan, Gasol. They impact the game in so many more ways.

lame

[TD 21]

What does any of this have to do with what you originally wrote - that "There is no such thing as a 7-1 PF, therefore he's a C." Your statement makes no sense. Gasol does everything PFs are supposed to do these days - he guards opposing PFs, he rebounds, he blocks shots, he plays on the block and he will hit 18 foot jumpers. It doesn't matter if he's 6-4 like Blair or 7-1 as he's listed. He can and does play a lot of minutes at the PF position.



And? KG was a "choker" for most of his career. Pierce had never won anything and therefore was considered by many to be somehow deficient. 2008 changed all that and proved that neither was true. Same thing happened for Gasol in 2009. He played great on the way to a title.



Who's making him out to be anything other than one of the best big guys in the league right now? At their peaks, TD and KG are both better than Pau, but those days are past. Howard is a better player IMO but has some serious flaws in his game that can cause major problems when they're exploited by teams in the POs.



Please. Gasol doesn't get a quarter of the attention, fame, and credit as Kobe among most fans. Gasol deserves at least as much credit as Kobe for the team's success... two straight Finals, 2 wins away from a third straight... and you think this guy's "overrated"?



Why? For long stretches in his career, Ginobili has been a better player than Kobe. Don't sell Manu short, when healthy, he is an incredibly productive player.



OK, you're making the assertion here, how are you backing it up? What in Duncan's stats indicates that he's the better player?



Come on, the guy is playing fewer than 32 MPG these days, what do you want him playing, 20 minutes per night?

Admittedly, that was a foolish line. But, you got to admit, with how small the league is nowadays and with the way Gasol plays, how could he not be considered a C? He plays a lot more minutes at C than he does PF.

He was, but Garnett was also a much better all around player who dragged his often thin teams to heights that Gasol surely couldn't have.

Plenty of people are making Gasol out to be better than he is. He's just very good; not great. Even in his decline, Duncan is still (right now) slightly better than Gasol. The problem is the Spurs asked him to do too much (as anyone who watched them would know) and wore him down. For half a season, he was as good as anyone not named James. He really only had about a bad month, maybe month and a half (at most) stretch, then played well down the stretch. Only Ginobili was scorching hot, so it went mostly unnoticed. This idea that Duncan fell off the map is ridiculous though. The month by month splits may suggest that, but really it was mainly because the offense was being run through Ginobili.

He's become overrated, yes. I'm telling you, he's getting about as much praise as Duncan was receiving in his prime. Every time he scores over some much smaller opponent or makes the simplest of passes, Collins is slobbering over him. It's sickening. You know who received this treatment in the old Suns/Spurs playoff series'? Nash. You know what Nash/Gasol have in common? No one cared that the Spurs had the best player in the world at the time, didn't matter, it was the Nash show.

I agree. Trust me, I'm not selling Ginobili short. I'm just saying I wasn't lulled into thinking he's an overall better player than Bryant because of his torrid stretch, though I do think they're a lot closer than most think.

What in Gasol's stats indicate he's the better player? Don't give me "more apg, more orpg", etc. He plays a lot more minutes. Look at efficiency.

It's not the minutes, it's how arduous those minutes are. Trust me, if you watch the Spurs game to game, you'd know. If they sign Splitter and he lives up to expectations, Duncan should be able to finally get the proper help/rest he's needed in recent years.

[monosylab1k]

Dirk Nowitzki would not have taken those Grizzlies teams to the playoffs at all, so it's a moot point.
lame

Which he never did

No he wasn't. That hasn't happened since Russell guarded Wilt.

Yes they can.

Bullshit.

Yes you are.

You also said Duncan would outduel Gasol, which hasn't happened in about 4 years. At some point "just playing worse" does become "just is worse."
lame

And since when is Mike Fratello a good coach? He's a frittering disciplinarian, almost a clone of Rick Carlisle.
lame

[HarlemHeat37]

The Lakers played 9 games without Kobe this year..Bynum missed 5 of these 9 games..

Pau's numbers in those 9 games: 21.4 PPG on 52% shooting, with 12.8 RPG, 4 APG and 2.8 BPG..sexy numbers..

The Lakers record: 6-3, including wins vs. San Antonio, @ Utah, @ Portland..2 of the 3 losses coming by a combined 3 points against Boston and Denver..

Yes, Kobe obviously helps a lot, but give credit where credit is due..

[monosylab1k]

lame

[Ghazi]

:lol

[redzero]

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/818/1274331327315.jpg (http://img41.imageshack.us/i/1274331327315.jpg/)

[SomeCallMeTim]

What in Gasol's stats indicate he's the better player? Don't give me "more apg, more orpg", etc. He plays a lot more minutes. Look at efficiency.

I am looking at efficiency -- what are you looking at?

Did I mention PPG, APG, RPG? Nope. I'm looking at TS% (Gasol better), ORB% (Gasol better), Ast% (Gasol better). Duncan is better at DRB% and TO%. No excuse on the TO%, Gasol does tend to be TO-prone at times. But Gasol also plays alongside plus rebounders in Bynum, Odom, and Kobe which no doubt depresses his REB numbers.

Gasol plays a slightly more efficient game for significantly more minutes = a better player these days. The difference is even more marked in the playoffs.


It's not the minutes, it's how arduous those minutes are. Trust me, if you watch the Spurs game to game, you'd know. If they sign Splitter and he lives up to expectations, Duncan should be able to finally get the proper help/rest he's needed in recent years.

What minutes except for garbage time are anything but "arduous minutes"?

[milkshakeballa]

Admittedly, that was a foolish line. But, you got to admit, with how small the league is nowadays and with the way Gasol plays, how could he not be considered a C? He plays a lot more minutes at C than he does PF.

He was, but Garnett was also a much better all around player who dragged his often thin teams to heights that Gasol surely couldn't have.

Plenty of people are making Gasol out to be better than he is. He's just very good; not great. Even in his decline, Duncan is still (right now) slightly better than Gasol. The problem is the Spurs asked him to do too much (as anyone who watched them would know) and wore him down. For half a season, he was as good as anyone not named James. He really only had about a bad month, maybe month and a half (at most) stretch, then played well down the stretch. Only Ginobili was scorching hot, so it went mostly unnoticed. This idea that Duncan fell off the map is ridiculous though. The month by month splits may suggest that, but really it was mainly because the offense was being run through Ginobili.

He's become overrated, yes. I'm telling you, he's getting about as much praise as Duncan was receiving in his prime. Every time he scores over some much smaller opponent or makes the simplest of passes, Collins is slobbering over him. It's sickening. You know who received this treatment in the old Suns/Spurs playoff series'? Nash. You know what Nash/Gasol have in common? No one cared that the Spurs had the best player in the world at the time, didn't matter, it was the Nash show.

I agree. Trust me, I'm not selling Ginobili short. I'm just saying I wasn't lulled into thinking he's an overall better player than Bryant because of his torrid stretch, though I do think they're a lot closer than most think.

What in Gasol's stats indicate he's the better player? Don't give me "more apg, more orpg", etc. He plays a lot more minutes. Look at efficiency.

It's not the minutes, it's how arduous those minutes are. Trust me, if you watch the Spurs game to game, you'd know. If they sign Splitter and he lives up to expectations, Duncan should be able to finally get the proper help/rest he's needed in recent years.

You lose all cred when you say you would take current Duncan over current Gasol.

[TD 21]

I have no problem with giving credit when credit's due, I'm just not going to sit here slobbering over and hyping up the next great white hype. He's not only not the best PF in the league, he's not even a PF. In today's game, to me he's more of a C, or a combination of both, but I'm not categorizing him with Nowitzki, Bosh, Stoudemire, etc.

And no, Gasol wasn't more efficient than Duncan this season. Duncan finished 5th at 24.79; Gasol finished 10th at 22.97.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fhollinger%2fstatistics

Bucher, a clear Lakers fan thinks Duncan is still better than Gasol.

I know Lakers fans who hate the Spurs yet still think Duncan is better than Gasol.

This is not nearly as outlandish an opinion as some are making it out to be.

[ElNono]

The Lakers played 9 games without Kobe this year..Bynum missed 5 of these 9 games..

Pau's numbers in those 9 games: 21.4 PPG on 52% shooting, with 12.8 RPG, 4 APG and 2.8 BPG..sexy numbers..

The Lakers record: 6-3, including wins vs. San Antonio, @ Utah, @ Portland..2 of the 3 losses coming by a combined 3 points against Boston and Denver..

Yes, Kobe obviously helps a lot, but give credit where credit is due..

Misleading. If we have to hand out credits, it's well beyond Kobe. You have to include Bynum and Odom there too.

The Lakers were 9-6 without Pau. And only 8-7 without Bynum. When both Pau and Bynum played together they went 38-12.

Sure, Pau ended up the regular season on a statistical tear. Credits go to him for that.

[SomeCallMeTim]

I have no problem with giving credit when credit's due, I'm just not going to sit here slobbering over and hyping up the next great white hype. He's not only not the best PF in the league, he's not even a PF. In today's game, to me he's more of a C, or a combination of both, but I'm not categorizing him with Nowitzki, Bosh, Stoudemire, etc.

And no, Gasol wasn't more efficient than Duncan this season. Duncan finished 5th at 24.79; Gasol finished 10th at 22.97.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fhollinger%2fstatistics

Bucher, a clear Lakers fan thinks Duncan is still better than Gasol.

I know Lakers fans who hate the Spurs yet still think Duncan is better than Gasol.

This is not nearly as outlandish an opinion as some are making it out to be.

:lol at PER = best measure of efficiency

Not sure why your obsession with calling him a C (he plays about 35% min at PF, 65% at C) but hey, you win... call him a C. That helps him because the average C is less productive than the average PF anyway. Makes Gasol out to be even better.

And frankly, who cares what Bucher or some "Lakers fans" think about Gasol vs. Duncan or the price of tea in China?

BTW, I wonder what your beloved PER says about their respective production in the POs?

[J_Paco]

:lol at PER = best measure of efficiency

Not sure why your obsession with calling him a C (he plays about 35% min at PF, 65% at C) but hey, you win... call him a C. That helps him because the average C is less productive than the average PF anyway. Makes Gasol out to be even better.

And frankly, who cares what Bucher or some "Lakers fans" think about Gasol vs. Duncan or the price of tea in China?

BTW, I wonder what your beloved PER says about their respective production in the POs?

If the guy plays most of his minutes at center, doesn't that essentially make him a center?

The thing people aren't realizing is that Gasol is virtually the same guy he was in Memphis. The biggest differences are that he is somewhat stronger, has become more effective on the boards, plays with a coach that runs a offense better suited to his skills and most of all he has better teammates. If you take any skilled and intelligent player from a poor situation to a better situation they always look better.

Gasol has not once surpassed the 20/10 threshold even during his days in Memphis. Even guys like Zach Randolph, Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer and Jermaine O'Neal have accomplished that feat at least once in their respective careers. He is a great 2nd-tier player and complimentary piece to Kobe, much like James Worthy to Magic, but he isn't an elite player.

[MiamiHeat]

Pau led Spain to success

[ezau]

If the guy plays most of his minutes at center, doesn't that essentially make him a center?

The thing people aren't realizing is that Gasol is virtually the same guy he was in Memphis. The biggest differences are that he is somewhat stronger, has become more effective on the boards, plays with a coach that runs a offense better suited to his skills and most of all he has better teammates. If you take any skilled and intelligent player from a poor situation to a better situation they always look better.

Gasol has not once surpassed the 20/10 threshold even during his days in Memphis. Even guys like Zach Randolph, Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer and Jermaine O'Neal have accomplished that feat at least once in their respective careers. He is a great 2nd-tier player and complimentary piece to Kobe, much like James Worthy to Magic, but he isn't an elite player.

This. Gasol is a very talented and skilled big, end of discussion. 10 years down the line, no one is going to mention his name alongside Duncan, Garnett, and Shaq.

[21_Blessings]

This. Gasol is a very talented and skilled big, end of discussion. 10 years down the line, no one is going to mention his name alongside Duncan, Garnett, and Shaq.

Oh well. And 10 years from now Pau will have more rings than all those guys. :lol

[DAF86]

Dirk and Pau are better at very different things...it's hard to compare. It is, however, obvious that Gasol can't lead a team, something Nowitzki has always done.

How's that obvious?

I hate when people make stupid claims like that just because.

[Cuppycake Gumdrop]

How's that obvious?

0-12


I hate when people make stupid claims like that just because.

I hate when people ask stupid questions like that just because.

[DAF86]

What do Pau's time in Memphis have to do with the fact that he is the best PF in the league right now?

Also, since when playing alongside Kobe Bryant makes you a better player? Gasol doesn't get nowhere near the amount of touches he should get because of Kobe.

[DAF86]

0-12

I hate when people ask stupid questions like that just because.

So the fact that he lead the Grizzles to 3 playoffs berth in his early years and with Mike Miller as his second option means he can't lead a team right now? great reasoning :tu

[21_Blessings]

Also, since when playing alongside Kobe Bryant makes you a better player? .

Since forever.

Shaq was at his best with Kobe feeding him for the first 42 minutes of game. Then Shaq took a backseat during the 4th so the superior closer could finish the game properly.

[ezau]

Oh well. And 10 years from now Pau will have more rings than all those guys. :lol

How many rings do you have?

[Red Hawk #21]

People are funny, the same folks who say Kobe is selfish and a ballhog, now are saying Gasol is thriving because of Kobe. Nice contradiction there. Gasol is the best PF in the league. So what if he's not a #1 option, still doesn't mean he's not the best PF. Pippen was a #2 option to Jordan, and Pippen was hands down the best SF in his era. Same with Gasol. Gasol can score nearly anytime he wants on the lowblock. His combo of size, length and skill is hard for other PF's to guard.

People underrate his strength too, probably because he's white. He goes up strong. The guy can finish inside, has great footwork and post moves, he can rebound, can defend, can pass, and has B-ball Iq. He's the best PF in the league. Let me let it be known that I don't give a shit about the Lakers, but we as basketball fans need to stop sleeping on Pau Gasol.

[tdunk21]

Why do you post? Seriously

Nobody ever listens to you

:lmao:lmao:lmao
so true about 21 blessings

[Lukor]

People are funny, the same folks who say Kobe is selfish and a ballhog, now are saying Gasol is thriving because of Kobe. Nice contradiction there. Gasol is the best PF in the league. So what if he's not a #1 option, still doesn't mean he's not the best PF. Pippen was a #2 option to Jordan, and Pippen was hands down the best SF in his era. Same with Gasol. Gasol can score nearly anytime he wants on the lowblock. His combo of size, length and skill is hard for other PF's to guard.

People underrate his strength too, probably because he's white. He goes up strong. The guy can finish inside, has great footwork and post moves, he can rebound, can defend, can pass, and has B-ball Iq. He's the best PF in the league. Let me let it be known that I don't give a shit about the Lakers, but we as basketball fans need to stop sleeping on Pau Gasol.

Have you seen him play before he joined the Lakers? Having a good team around you opens up alot of options. And it definitely makes you look better.
I think Pau is great but let's not overrate him. He's the best #2 guy in the league right now, that's what he is.

[RsxPiimp]

People are funny, the same folks who say Kobe is selfish and a ballhog, now are saying Gasol is thriving because of Kobe. Nice contradiction there.

People are running out of ammos to shoot at Kobe :lol

[Killakobe81]

People are funny, the same folks who say Kobe is selfish and a ballhog, now are saying Gasol is thriving because of Kobe. Nice contradiction there. Gasol is the best PF in the league. So what if he's not a #1 option, still doesn't mean he's not the best PF. Pippen was a #2 option to Jordan, and Pippen was hands down the best SF in his era. Same with Gasol. Gasol can score nearly anytime he wants on the lowblock. His combo of size, length and skill is hard for other PF's to guard.

People underrate his strength too, probably because he's white. He goes up strong. The guy can finish inside, has great footwork and post moves, he can rebound, can defend, can pass, and has B-ball Iq. He's the best PF in the league. Let me let it be known that I don't give a shit about the Lakers, but we as basketball fans need to stop sleeping on Pau Gasol.

agree with this ...

But not sure he is THE best Dirk is the best but for playoffs Id rather have Pau because he can score better in the paint ...

[sefant77]

Pau is currently everything Dirk should have been.

lol retard

[fmedrano1977]

let's see what Gasol does next round against 2 physical and defensive bigmen.

[sefant77]

http://espn.go.com/photo/2006/0426/nba_g_gasol_268.jpg


/close

[TampaDude]

Oh well. And 10 years from now Pau will have more rings than all those guys. :lol

No, he won't.

[21_Blessings]

No, he won't.

Hate to break it to ya Dude, but the Lakers aren't going away after this season.

Back to back Team of the Decade for the Lakers anyone? :hat

[Bob Lanier]

The thing people aren't realizing is that Gasol is virtually the same guy he was in Memphis.
They aren't realizing it because it's not true. He's considerably better defensively, to the point where he's one of the better defensive big men in the NBA. He's a much more physical player on offense, setting much better screens. As a rebounder he's gone from one of the worst at his position to one of the best at any position.

The biggest differences are that he is somewhat stronger, has become more effective on the boards, plays with a coach that runs a offense better suited to his skills and most of all he has better teammates.
Oh. So why deny that he's changed?

He's better than Duncan. Deal with it. And yes, I liked watching Duncan back when he was a great player better than I like watching Gasol now, too. But crying and lashing out because you're sad is for 3-year-olds.

[Brazil]

Pau is beasting right now, in these POs and so far I consider he is the best big in the league.

[SomeCallMeTim]

This. Gasol is a very talented and skilled big, end of discussion. 10 years down the line, no one is going to mention his name alongside Duncan, Garnett, and Shaq.

Pau is a great player and if he keeps this up, he may well end up in the discussion with the three you mentioned.

I don't think he'd deserve it as his peak is nowhere near that of the three you mentioned, but people tend to remember champs. If he gets multiple rings and KG stays at one, for example, for many people that will mean Pau > KG.

Again, not saying I agree with that. But the fact that Pau doesn't rate as highly as three first-ballot, inner-circle HOF players is no shame whatsoever.

[RsxPiimp]

I think Dirk is still a better player than Pau, but Gasol IMO has a much better all around game. Playing alongside Kobe and Odom also benefits Pau's game.



The Kobe-Gasol relationship is pretty much equivalent to the Kobe-Shaq duo that won 3 straight championships. Both shared the responsibilites of options 1A & 1B. As good as Kobe was in the WC series, it was still Shaq's team, just like this is still Kobe's team despite of Pau's emergence and dominating postseason play. Kobe still sets the tone, runs the offense late, and sill commands the double team.

[monosylab1k]

lame

[Giuseppe]

let's see what Gasol does next round against 2 physical and defensive bigmen.

Yes. That will be the litmus test for Gasol. In '08 they beat him to a pulp, made him yelp "uncle", took his cookie and ate his lunch.

His moment of truth is drawing near.

[redzero]

I don't see the point of getting defensive about Duncan. He's old and past his prime. It's okay if others have surpassed him.

[The Gemini Method]

Yes. That will be the litmus test for Gasol. In '08 they beat him to a pulp, made him yelp "uncle", took his cookie and ate his lunch.

His moment of truth is drawing near.

I think he is aware of that, Culb...perhaps he'll get his lunch back.

Also, that could go for the remainder of the team--who were too inexperienced in '08 to really know how to handle themselves. 2 years and 1 title later, lets hope that they haven't forgotten the massacre in '08 and come to play.

[RsxPiimp]

Again, are people really going to discredit Gasol for being unable to win with Mike Miller/James Posey/Bonzi Wells as his #2 best player at different times during those runs?..

Problem with this argument is that there's a big hole in it, so lets stop using it to push Gasol's impact when it has reached its limit.


Memphis was a fine defensive team. In 04-05 the Grizzlies ranked 5th in defensive rating. In 05-06, they were 2nd. They held their opponents to just 88.5 PPG.


If people are willing to give the 2004-2006 Gasol version credit for the Grizzlies defensive brilliance, then good luck arguing on that.



Memphis was full of solid perimeter defenders during Gasol's years. We're talking about Shane Battier, Eddie Jones and James Posey, and he always had great shooters and a good mix of veterans and athletic frontcourt players in the process. Offensively he's covered, he had 6 players in one season that averaged in double figures (05-06). Best of all, Memphis was a team full of young players that actually played for Hubie Brown, this was the time Lorenzen Wright and Stromile Swift were still serviceable. If there's one intagible thing Memphis had, it was Hubies effort to reach out with a bunch of castoffs who were normally known for just collecting their paychecks (Wright,Swift,Jason Williams,Bonzi). I believe Hubie's influence on those players was huge and by the time Fratello took over, most players were eager to continue their previous success in a conference where 49 wins gets you a 5th spot. Not exactly a strong year in the West.


I mean, just put it this way, The Grizzlies never won a single playoff win for three straight years. It just shows you how Gasol the leader has been
successful.

[sefant77]

Again, are people really going to discredit Gasol for being unable to win A SINGLE DAMN GAME with Mike Miller/James Posey/Bonzi Wells as his #2 best player at different times during those runs?..

yes.

[RsxPiimp]

Even Brandon Freaking Jennings has 3 wins under his belt lol.

[monoslyab1k]

lame

[Bob Lanier]

You know, I've never liked the term "butthurt," but it applies. And it's not the wounded pride of Duncan's fans that it applies to.

LOL Dallas, the new Sacramento.

[Bob Lanier]

And yes, I know: "lame."

http://d2g465z57r2u8t.cloudfront.net/photos/6152/American_Apparel_Unisex_Shiny_Windbreaker_Final.jp g

[monoslyab1k]

You know, I've never liked the term "butthurt," but it applies. And it's not the wounded pride of Duncan's fans that it applies to.

LOL Dallas, the new Sacramento.

lame

[MateoNeygro]

Pau is a beast-no doubt. I would still take Dirk over him. I'd have to agree that at this point Pau has surpassed Duncan because of Tim's age and wear/tear.

[Muser]

Yes, Pau > Duncan right now. He's been a stud this season for L.A.

[D-Wade #3]

Gilbert Arenas has playoff wins as the #1 on his team.

So do Elton Brand, Andre Iguodala, Vince Carter, Brandon Jennings, Baron Davis, and even Stephon freaking Marbury.

So yes, Pau not being able to win ONE SINGLE PLAYOFF GAME with the Grizzlies is worth discrediting him.

Pau isn't too pussy to post up, Dirkie pooh is


You know, I've never liked the term "butthurt," but it applies. And it's not the wounded pride of Duncan's fans that it applies to.



LOL Dallas, the new Sacramento.

:lol

[J_Paco]

They aren't realizing it because it's not true. He's considerably better defensively, to the point where he's one of the better defensive big men in the NBA. He's a much more physical player on offense, setting much better screens. As a rebounder he's gone from one of the worst at his position to one of the best at any position.

He hasn't changed, he's just become more effective. He isn't considerably better on defense, he's just on a better defensive team plus he's regularly guarding guys 3 or 4 inches shorter. He uses his length and quickness well when guarding those shorter players.


Oh. So why deny that he's changed?

He's matured physically by putting on extra weight, but he's still soft. Duncan isn't considered a physical defender, yet he can rattle Gasol by playing him close and bothering him.


He's better than Duncan. Deal with it. And yes, I liked watching Duncan back when he was a great player better than I like watching Gasol now, too. But crying and lashing out because you're sad is for 3-year-olds.

Who's crying? I've always liked Gasol's game, but people want to overrate him because he's on a bigger stage and they ignored him in Memphis. He's become more efficient on offense and a more effective rebounder, but he still isn't the best PF/big man in the league. He still can't dominate on the defensive end and can be rattled on offense.

[Bob Lanier]

He hasn't changed, he's just become more effective.
What does that mean?

He isn't considerably better on defense
I completely disagree. He was a terrible defender in his early years in Memphis, and these last two, three years he's been a good to very good one. Aside from Howard, Bogut, Haywood, Yao and Oden when they're healthy, there are not too many better defensive anchors in the NBA.

He's matured physically by putting on extra weight, but he's still soft.
I don't disagree.
he still isn't the best PF/big man in the league. He still can't dominate on the defensive end and can be rattled on offense.
So who is? Who meets both of those requirements? Garnett, maybe. Yao, Bogut? Dirk, no to both. Duncan, no to the first. Howard, no to the second.

[J_Paco]

What does that mean?

He uses his length and boxes out much better than in Memphis. Rebounding is all about effort, Gasol just gives far better effort now then he did in Memphis. Also, it helps that he usually can rebound over his smaller opponent.


I completely disagree. He was a terrible defender in his early years in Memphis, and these last two, three years he's been a good to very good one. Aside from Howard, Bogut, Haywood, Yao and Oden when they're healthy, there are not too many better defensive anchors in the NBA.

He was "terrible" because he was physically weaker than the player he was guarding. He's matured physically and has learned to better use his length on defense. Yet, he still isn't a good defender, he's just above average. Stronger players can power through him and smaller players can usually out-quick him. That doesn't show as much in L.A. with such a good core of defenders on the team and the considerable length that Odom, Bynum and Gasol possess.


So who is? Who meets both of those requirements? Garnett, maybe. Yao, Bogut? Dirk, no to both. Duncan, no to the first. Howard, no to the second.

Duncan and Garnett can still dominant on both ends when they're rested and healthy. I guess you didn't see the first-round series against Dallas? Duncan's lateral quickness and mobility is gone, but he can still anchor a defense if he's used correctly. Yao when healthy can be a dominant player on offense and defense. Bogut and Howard aren't dominant enough on offense, while Dirk has never been dominant on the glass or on defense.

[monosylab1k]

You know, I've never liked the term "butthurt," but it applies. And it's not the wounded pride of Duncan's fans that it applies to.

LOL Dallas, the new Sacramento.

lame

[monosylab1k]

And yes, I know: "lame."

http://d2g465z57r2u8t.cloudfront.net/photos/6152/American_Apparel_Unisex_Shiny_Windbreaker_Final.jp g

lame

[TD 21]

:lol at PER = best measure of efficiency

Not sure why your obsession with calling him a C (he plays about 35% min at PF, 65% at C) but hey, you win... call him a C. That helps him because the average C is less productive than the average PF anyway. Makes Gasol out to be even better.

And frankly, who cares what Bucher or some "Lakers fans" think about Gasol vs. Duncan or the price of tea in China?

BTW, I wonder what your beloved PER says about their respective production in the POs?

So he plays about two thirds of his minutes at C? You're right, what was I thinking referring to him as a C? Stupid me.

I'm just saying, this isn't some preposterous opinion based on bias.

Funny, when PER doesn't suit your side of the argument, then it's not credible. People always do that. Here's what I like about PER: If I were to come up with my top fifteen players, fourteen would be in the top twenty (the other top twenty-five) and if I were to come up with players having a breakout season, PER almost always bears it out.

So let me get this straight, 82 games, where team's play essentially the same schedule, that's not useful, but the small sample size that is the playoffs, is? And you're trying to make me seem like the biased one.

J_Paco has encapsulated my thoughts. 21_Blessings, this "closer" talk is nonsense. Guess what, Bryant wouldn't have been in position to "close" if not for O'Neal's dominance in the first forty-two minutes. Kenny Smith always uses this foolish argument as means to declare Bryant the best player in the world.

[Danny.Zhu]

At this point, Gasol>Dirk>Timmy

[DAF86]

At this point, Gasol>Dirk>Timmy

Agreed.

[SomeCallMeTim]

So he plays about two thirds of his minutes at C? You're right, what was I thinking referring to him as a C? Stupid me.

That wasn't your original point, though. Your original point was "There is no such thing as a 7-1 PF, therefore he's a C." I called BS because Gasol played over 1000 minutes at PF.

What part of that is difficult to understand?

He plays both positions and plays them both very well, kinda like Duncan actually in that regard.


I'm just saying, this isn't some preposterous opinion based on bias.

Funny, when PER doesn't suit your side of the argument, then it's not credible. People always do that. Here's what I like about PER: If I were to come up with my top fifteen players, fourteen would be in the top twenty (the other top twenty-five) and if I were to come up with players having a breakout season, PER almost always bears it out.

And...? You think I have a problem with PER? I think it is an OK way of looking at players, except:

a) IMO it rewards high usage, high scoring players without enough penalty for mediocre/poor efficiency

b) It takes defense into account very little

c) There are better ways of evaluating players IMO than a catch-all stat like PER that, even by Hollinger's own admission, is designed as a quick way to encapsulate a player's production but by no means the most accurate


So let me get this straight, 82 games, where team's play essentially the same schedule, that's not useful, but the small sample size that is the playoffs, is? And you're trying to make me seem like the biased one.

Who said the 82 game sample isn't useful? (It is 65 and 78 games by the way, those are the number of games Gasol and Duncan played.)

80% of my argument was all about RS numbers. I quoted you Gasol's advantages vs. Duncan's advantages. You are the one who said it was "preposterous" to think Duncan's not the better player at this point. I asked you: what in their stats and production this season gives you that impression? What clear advantage does Duncan provide at this point?

Because I just don't see it.

For the record, yes, playoffs are a smaller sample size... but that doesn't make it an insignificant sample. And I'm sorry, but playoff games do mean more. If Duncan has nothing left in the tank by the time the POs roll around, we're not supposed to hold that against him in evaluating his value to his team?


J_Paco has encapsulated my thoughts. 21_Blessings, this "closer" talk is nonsense. Guess what, Bryant wouldn't have been in position to "close" if not for O'Neal's dominance in the first forty-two minutes. Kenny Smith always uses this foolish argument as means to declare Bryant the best player in the world.

That's a false dichotomy... Shaq and Kobe both needed each other. Shaq was more valuable but he doesn't win those 3 championships without Kobe. It is not as if Kobe was irreplaceable -- yep, Shaq probably could've won those three titles if you swapped another elite wing for Kobe -- but Shaq was not irreplaceable either. Put an elite center in his place with Kobe and those role players -- say, Duncan -- and quite likely you get the same results.

[da_suns_fan]

So Colin Cowheard gave major props to the Lakers for going after Gasol (who fits) and not someone like McGrady or Iverson.

I couldnt believe the revisionist history. As if Houston or Denver would have traded either of those two for Kwame Brown. As if the Lakers coming off their 2007 loss and Kobe trade demand wouldnt have given up any player outside of Odom for McGrady or Iverson.

[SomeCallMeTim]

Duncan and Garnett can still dominant on both ends when they're rested and healthy. I guess you didn't see the first-round series against Dallas? Duncan's lateral quickness and mobility is gone, but he can still anchor a defense if he's used correctly.

Well, this whole "rested and healthy" thing is nearly the entire point now, isn't it?

No one is arguing that Pau at his peak is anywhere near Duncan's or KG's at theirs.

We're talking present day, and Duncan and KG are definitely off their peaks because of age and injury.

And I'm sorry, but the lingering impression I have of Duncan's defense this season is watching him absolutely get torched by Nash and Amar'e on the PNR over and over and over again down the stretch of Game 2 vs. Phoenix. First time I can ever recall him looking utterly helpless on defense for an extended period. And the rest of the series wasn't much better... Dragic made him look silly in Game 3. I don't think I have to go into detail about Game 4.

[SomeCallMeTim]

So Colin Cowheard gave major props to the Lakers for going after Gasol (who fits) and not someone like McGrady or Iverson.

I couldnt believe the revisionist history. As if Houston or Denver would have traded either of those two for Kwame Brown. As if the Lakers coming off their 2007 loss and Kobe trade demand wouldnt have given up any player outside of Odom for McGrady or Iverson.

I don't think they would've wanted Iverson but I can't disagree about McGrady.

Sometimes teams fortunes are just as improved by the moves they don't make as the ones they do.

[duncan228]

Charley Rosen: Gasol Is Better Than You Think (http://www.foxsportswest.com/05/21/10/Charley-Rosen-Gasol-Is-Better-Than-You-T/landing.html?blockID=239084&feedID=3707)
Charley Rosen
FOXSports.com

Whether the Lakers win or lose, the focus is always on Kobe Bryant -- and rightly so because he’s the best player in the known world. But more and more NBA watchers are discovering that Pau Gasol has usurped Tim Duncan and has become the league’s new Big Fundamental.

Not only that, Gasol has also meshed seamlessly with Kobe, and earned his respect. This was evidenced late in Game 2 when Gasol was prepared to set a wing-high screen for Kobe, until Bryant waved him back into the low post. “You,” Kobe said, then delivered a crisp entry pass and watched with pleasure as Gasol once again took Amar'e Stoudemire to school. This time with a double-spin move that led to a short jumper.

This is not the same Pau Gasol who toiled for Memphis. His movements are quicker and more defined. He has expanded his offensive repertoire and increased both his defensive range and understanding.

Even if Gasol is bumped off his favorite spot on the left box, he can still turn, face, shoot, pass or drive. And Gasol’s left hand is the best of any of his peers. It’s this versatility that is especially dangerous when opponents are of a mind to focus on Kobe with double teams and stacked defenses.

Also, although this was not demonstrated in Game 2 when he missed several springers, Gasol can step out past the stripe and knock down mid-range jumpers. This ability keeps the middle open for Kobe’s drives, allows Andrew Bynum and Lamar Odom space to operate in the low post, and provides a scoring option when the defense collapses. Plus, because of his size and long arms, Gasol can easily deliver lob passes if Bynum or Odom are fronted in the pivot.

Moreover, Gasol’s slick passwork enables the Lakers to play inside-out offense that can take full advantage of turned heads, momentary defensive confusion, and aggressive dive cuts by his teammates. In Game 2, for example, Gasol made a kick-out pass to Kobe from the jaws of a double team that forced the Suns' defense to compromise its balance, thereby leaving Artest unguarded on the weak-side wing. Kobe got the assist when his pass to Artest led to a successful jumper, but Gasol executed the most underrated pass in the game — the pass that enables a subsequent assist-pass.

His length and ability to seal defenders also make fronting Gasol extremely risky, as he readily proved against the Suns on Wednesday.

In other words, Gasol’s versatility with the ball creates problems that no playoff opponent thus far has been able to solve. Indeed, the Celtics are the only potential rival that, in Rasheed Wallace, have the personnel to make life difficult for Gasol.

Adding to Gasol’s package is his sky-high basketball IQ. No other big man in the league moves so efficiently without the ball. In particular, Gasol is completely homed in on Kobe’s intentions. Notice how many times Kobe delivered assist-passes to Gasol on the move, and how often these two celebrated their cohesion with joyous high-fives.

Gasol is likewise especially attuned to Odom’s off-the-ball maneuvers. In Game 2, three of Gasol’s five dimes were dropped on Odom in the paint.

In addition, Gasol’s can set effective screens, then either roll hoopward, slip the screen, or fade to create space for his jumpers. Any defender whose head tends to swivel will be burned by a timely backdoor cut that inevitably eventuates in a layup or a dunk.

Nor is Gasol’s skill-set limited to the attack zone. When the Lakers were temporarily stymied by a full-court press sprung by Phoenix, Gasol quickly moved into a release spot to catch a pass and instantly relieve the pressure. Twice more, Gasol carried the ball across the time-line to foil full-court zone traps. On one of these excursions Gasol escaped an approaching defender by changing direction with a smooth behind-the-back dribble.

It’s Odom’s presence that has made Kobe diminish his domination of the ball and, in truth, forced him to wholeheartedly trust his teammates. As a result, the triangle is as effective these days as it ever has been since the heydays of MJ and Scottie Pippen.

Even more influential is Gasol’s screen/roll defense. By unofficial count, Gasol made 17 exceptional shows on the Suns high screen/rolls in Game 2. He stepped up, spread out, and forced (mostly) Nash to back up before even thinking of trying to turn the corner. One of Gasol’s shows so astounded Leandro Barbosa that the Brazilian Blur fumbled his dribble into the hands of Jordan Farmar — who got credit for the steal.

Gasol’s non-spectacular defense was another under-the-radar reason for the Lakers latest triumph. As when his long arms distracted Steve Nash and forced first a turnover, and then a crudely misfired 3-point shot. Or the third-quarter sequence when Gasol made Goran Dragic change his shot so much that he missed a layup. Not to forget an aggressive switch-out by that caused the hot-shooting Grant Hill to miss a rare jumper.

Gasol’s long-armed defense also discombobulated Stoudemire, blocking a layup, forcing a brick when he stood his ground in an iso situation, and generally discouraging Stoudemire from attacking him with the ball.

Simply put, Gasol is too talented, too resourceful, and too crafty for the comparatively unevolved Stoudemire to compete with on even terms. But Stoudemire has plenty of company.

For example, Gasol is taller and longer than Duncan, but not quite as strong. Neither is an exceptional face-up jump shooter or is possessed of exceptional hops. Gasol has a vastly superior left hand and more junk in his trunk in the low-post. Gasol’s handle is also better than Duncan’s, he moves more efficiently without the ball, and is a much slicker passer.

On defense, Gasol gets the edge in screen/roll and man-to-man defense, while TD’s help defense remains unchallenged among the NBA’s bigs.

Moreover, with his 34th birthday rapidly approaching, Duncan has lost a step and is past his peak. But Gasol is TD’s junior by approximately four years and is at the top of his game.

So, if there’s very little that’s fundamentally sound about Dwight Howard’s overall game, if Shaq is old and in the way, and if Yao is perpetually down and out, then Pau Gasol has emerged, not only as the NBA’s reigning master of basic basketball, but as the best center on the planet.

With the unequaled duo of Kobe and Gasol playing so well together, and obviously enjoying their partnership, the Lakers seem destined to repeat.