How would a prime Olajuwon fare against a prime Duncan? [Archive] - Page 2

Aggie Hoopsdouche

05-22-2010, 05:49 PM

Duncan had to go through the most dominant big man of the past 30 years from 1999-2004 and came out of that with 2 titles.

Shaquille O'Neal during this time was the most dominant big man since Wilt Chamberlain. Not skilled, but most dominant.

Shaq+Kobe during this era was better than any team Jordan faced. IMO

Also, Hakeem got the better of the Admiral in the 1995 WCF. But the Admiral still put up 24 points 11 rebounds 3.25 blocks during this series. So completely "destroying the Admiral" is a slight overstatement. And Robinson had got the better of Hakeem in may games outside of this one series. Using that one series as the sample for all of Robinson's prime is quite foolish.

I know and that fucking idiot Robinson openly admitted he got torched (see the below video at 1:35). What a dumbass! I mean he did shoot 41% that's awesome right! Of course Hakeem shot 55+% and averaged 35 plus with three 40 point games and a 39 point game. Robinson must have not have been paying attention when he admitted Hakeem torched him. Fucking Noob. Also, screw this dumb main stream press for their pro-Houston bias:

hW4uXlRGAF0

djohn2oo8

05-22-2010, 06:02 PM

Duncan had to go through the most dominant big man of the past 30 years from 1999-2004 and came out of that with 2 titles.

Shaq+Kobe during this era was better than any team Jordan faced. IMO

.

:lmao You claiming Kobe + Shaq better than any team that Jordan faced. Hakeem went through the likes of Malone/Stockton, Bird, Magic, Barkley, and others. So, what's your point?

TD 21

05-22-2010, 06:03 PM

Don't put Duncan in the same class as Ewing or even Robinson. O'Neal, fine, but they were different types of players. I just don't buy this notion that Olajuwon would have "destroyed" Duncan. Maybe he'd have slightly outplayed him, but nobody destroyed Duncan.

Not even prime O'Neal, who was arguably the most dominant player in the history of sports. Nowhere near the best, but in terms of sheer dominance, you could make the argument. Physically, very few players in the entire league could even come close to adequately guarding him straight up.

Excellent post MaNu4Tres.

Aggie Hoopsdouche

05-22-2010, 06:04 PM

I've read and from everything I've heard of die-hards from that era, David Robinson was considered better for years until that 1 series, and I would imagine that this series had a lot to do with Hakeem's inflation

The worst was the year before when Hakeem won the MVP, Defensive Player of the Year, Finals MVP, and covered Ewing in gasoline and threw a box of lit matches on him in the NBA Finals, and then some people were acting like he was better than D-Rob. Just because he was able to be the dominant player on a championship team, and for the lame reason that he had one of the most successful seasons an NBA player has ever had. Puh-lease what a lame reason to compare him to the incomparable D-Rob.

Aggie Hoopsdouche

05-22-2010, 06:09 PM

I agree with Harlem Heat, the true die hards (the true fans not those phony ones) knew that Robinson was better until that 1 series. They weren't fooled by all those phony awards and accolades Hakeem won the year before. The true die hard fans are never fooled, right Harlem?

Shastafarian

05-22-2010, 06:12 PM

:lmao You claiming Kobe + Shaq better than any team that Jordan faced. Hakeem went through the likes of Malone/Stockton, Bird, Magic, Barkley, and others. So, what's your point?

huh?

Shastafarian

05-22-2010, 06:13 PM

Who would win 1-on-1, Prime Hakeem or Prime Shaq?

MaNu4Tres

05-22-2010, 06:15 PM

:lmao You claiming Kobe + Shaq better than any team that Jordan faced. Hakeem went through the likes of Malone/Stockton, Bird, Magic, Barkley, and others. So, what's your point?

In reference of the Jordan era, when duhoh says " Put Duncan in Jordan's era, and let's see what happens." It's easy to establish he was talking about the years Jordan won titles. Duhoh didn't say the Bird and Johnson era.

On the sunrise of the "Jordan era", Magic and Bird were on the cusp of retirement and their teams were irrelevant once the Pistons won back to back titles.

And yes the Shaq/Kobe teams from 1999-2004 were better than any Malone/Stockton, Barkley/Kevin Johnson, and Kemp /Payton team Jordan's team faced.

So for him to say Duncan couldn't have done better during this time is foolish, considering a prime- Duncan had to go through a team made up of the most dominant big man in the past 30 years and the most dominant guard in the NBA at the time.

djohn2oo8

05-22-2010, 06:15 PM

huh?

1986 NBA Finals, Celtics beat Rockets 4-2....Larry Bird is who I am referring to

Aggie Hoopsdouche

05-22-2010, 06:15 PM

Let's go true Spurs fans, if we can't win this argument let's just turn this into an endurance test. We'll keep posting until people stop responding and then we can pretend we won. Shasta will lead the way! To infinite and beyond!!

Shastafarian

05-22-2010, 06:16 PM

1986 NBA Finals, Celtics beat Rockets 4-2....Larry Bird is who I am referring to

You said he went through them.

Shastafarian

05-22-2010, 06:17 PM

An Aggie Hoopsfan troll. I thought I had seen it all.

djohn2oo8

05-22-2010, 06:18 PM

So for him to say Duncan couldn't have done better during this time is foolish, considering a prime- Duncan had to go through a team made up of the most dominant big man in the past 30 years and the most dominant guard in the NBA at the time.

:lmao Who else?

djohn2oo8

05-22-2010, 06:19 PM

You said he went through them.

I did, he played in their era, did he not? And he didn't prevail, but that wasn't his fault.

Aggie Hoopsdouche

05-22-2010, 06:22 PM

Who would win 1-on-1, Prime Hakeem or Prime Shaq?

Shaq. Just because Shaq was way too slow for Hakeem before he got obese doesn't mean anything. Fat Shaq by 1,000,000,000 billion million points in a two hour game. The secret to stopping a superquick guy with a thousand moves each faster than the next like Hakeem is to have a very slow very fat guy get on him. The lack of foot speed confuses him. Also, greasy sweat gets in Hakeem's head and grosses him out.

Shastafarian

05-22-2010, 06:23 PM

I did, he played in their era, did he not? And he didn't prevail, but that wasn't his fault.

To me, going through someone denotes beating them. Whatever, it doesn't matter.

Shastafarian

05-22-2010, 06:24 PM

Shaq. Just because Shaq was way too slow for Hakeem before he got obese doesn't mean anything. Fat Shaq by 1,000,000,000 billion million points in a two hour game. The secret to stopping a superquick guy with a thousand moves each faster than the next like Hakeem is to have a very slow very fat guy get on him. The lack of foot speed confuses him. Also, greasy sweat gets in Hakeem's head and grosses him out.

:rollin

Shaq was too slow? So what else can you tell us Mr. I Didn't Watch Basketball Before 2000?

Shastafarian

05-22-2010, 06:29 PM

Should I just call you Mavs_man_14 so we can do away with the pleasantries?

Aggie Hoopsdouche

05-22-2010, 06:36 PM

:rollin

Shaq was too slow? So what else can you tell us Mr. I Didn't Watch Basketball Before 2000?

Too slow for Hakeem in the little known forum for public basketball they play called the NBA Finals (1995 edition) when Hakeeem averaged 33 ppg on him, and outscored him every game (guess you missed that one). If you ever geet a chance to watch that series on ESPN Classic or NBTV Hardwood Classics watch the final humiliating load of man gravy he launches in Shaq's face by way of a contested three when the game is out of reach in game four to put the series away that Had Clyde cracking up laughing.

Aggie Hoopsdouche

05-22-2010, 06:40 PM

:rollin

Shaq was too slow? So what else can you tell us Mr. I Didn't Watch Basketball Before 2000?

If I started watching in 2000 then I watched in Shaq's prime dummy. Even your insults fail.

elbamba

05-22-2010, 06:40 PM

The Dream never beat Jordan. Those Rockets teams had some good players but they never beat the Jordan bulls.

Duncan beat the Kobe-Shaq Lakers. That to me is the testimony of greatness. Duncan beat the best.

The real question would be which playoff team would win as Duncan and the Dream would not play one-on-one. I personally would take the 1999, 2005 and 2007 team over the 94/95 Rockets teams.

blink

05-22-2010, 06:46 PM

didnt have to beat the jordan bulls, they got beat by a team we swept in the finals

tlongII

05-22-2010, 06:57 PM

To be honest, Prime Duncan and Prime Olajuwan would both get worked by Prime Walton.

ginobili's bald spot

05-22-2010, 07:01 PM

To be honest, Prime Duncan and Prime Olajuwan would both get worked by Prime Walton.

If injuries were a measure, Blazers centers would be the greatest of all time.

hitmanyr2k

05-22-2010, 07:32 PM

Duncan had to go through the most dominant big man of the past 30 years from 1999-2004 and came out of that with 2 titles.

In a span of 2 years Hakeem went through the best big men the league had to offer (Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Malone) and took them all down enroute to 2 straight titles. I think that's more than comparable.

Shaquille O'Neal during this time was the most dominant big man since Wilt Chamberlain. Not skilled, but most dominant.

Shaq was dominant (as well as skilled) and a force to be reckoned with but you can't compare that to what Hakeem had to face to win his chips. Like I said before, Hakeem faced the best of the best one round after the other. When Duncan got through with Shaq everyone and their mother knew he had the title wrapped up facing whatever weakling Eastern conference opponent was being served up that year. When Hakeem was done with the Western Conference opponents he still had Ewing waiting for him in one Finals and Shaq in the next.

Shaq+Kobe during this era was better than any team Jordan faced. IMO

Arguable. The Shaq/Penny Orlando Magic were just as good. If they didn't run into a Bulls team on a mission in '96 that would have most likely been their first title of many.

djohn2oo8

05-22-2010, 07:34 PM

The Dream never beat Jordan. Those Rockets teams had some good players but they never beat the Jordan bulls.

.

lol, like the Rockets could control who came out of the East. So, by that logic, Duncan never had to beat a prime Jordan at anytime because he retired again?

djohn2oo8

05-22-2010, 07:35 PM

In a span of 2 years Hakeem when through the best big men the league had to offer (Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Malone) and took them all down enroute to 2 straight titles. I think that's more than comparable.

Shaq was dominant (as well as skilled) and a force to be reckoned with but you can't compare that to what Hakeem had to face to win his chips. Like I said before, Hakeem faced the best of the best one round after the other. When Duncan got through with Shaq everyone and their mother knew he had the title wrapped up facing whatever weakling Eastern conference opponent was being served up that year. When Hakeem was done with the Western Conference opponents he still had Ewing waiting for him in one Finals and Shaq in the next.

Arguable. The Shaq/Penny Orlando Magic were just as good. If they didn't run into a Bulls team on a mission in '96 that would have most likely been their first title of many.

This

m33p0

05-22-2010, 07:38 PM

arguments like this always ends up "my team bettah than yoh team" mudslinging. :lol

anyway, it's a wash. neither can stop the other sufficiently enough to claim dominance. hakeem might have his way in the post but tim can always take him outside.

MaNu4Tres

05-22-2010, 07:51 PM

In a span of 2 years Hakeem when through the best big men the league had to offer (Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Malone) and took them all down enroute to 2 straight titles. I think that's more than comparable.

Shaq on the Lakers> Shaq on the Magic IMO.

That Shaq on the Lakers is where he won his MVP and Finals MVP's.
Duncan still went through great big men that were in their prime as well. Garnett, Dirk, Sheed to name a few.

In 1999 Duncan faced KG in the first round, Shaq in the second round, then a prime-Sheed/Sabonis/prime-Brian Grant(who was a stud).

In 2003 Duncan faced Amare in the 1st round, who had yet to hit his prime but still was a force winning Rookie of the Year, Shaq again in the 2nd round and Dirk in the WCF then went on to face Kenyon Martin and Mutombo.

I agree that Olajuwon faced tougher big men throughout that 2 year run he had, but not by the wide margin you are implying. Every year from 1999-2004 Duncan had to go through perhaps the most dominant force the NBA has seen since Wilt Chamberlain(Not just 2 years, 5 straight seasons). I'm not talking about 1995 Shaq-2 years in the league. I'm talking about the prime MVP Shaq. That Shaq I'm talking about is better than any big man Olajuwon had to face.

Arguable. The Shaq/Penny Orlando Magic were just as good. If they didn't run into a Bulls team on a mission in '96 that would have most likely been their first title of many.

Shaq/Penny Orlando Magic were not as good.

Shaq on the Lakers was a different kind of beast. He was at his ultimate peak on the Lakers and Kobe was better than Penny and dominated 4th quarters as close as anyone I've seen outside of Jordan during the run him and Shaq had. IMO

Shastafarian

05-22-2010, 09:19 PM

If I started watching in 2000 then I watched in Shaq's prime dummy. Even your insults fail.

:lol I hope this is you trolling. Unless you wanna argue Shaq's prime was as brief as Hakeem's.

TDfan2007

05-22-2010, 10:19 PM

Tim Duncan faced Dirk Nowitzki, Rasheed Wallace, Kevin Garnett, and Shaquille O'neal. That last guy, Shaq, was a beast. At Shaq's prime he was more unguardable than ANY bigman since Kareem. Despite this Tim was asked to guard Shaq time after time when the Spurs met the Lakers in the playoffs. Tim would hold Shaq in check and then go right at him and score on offense.

Tim Duncan went up against the best defensive frontcourt in the NBA (2005 Pistons) since Boston's big three of the 80s on two bum ankles and STILL averaged about 20 points 15 boards, and 2 blocks.

Hakeem could have outplayed Tim, and Tim could have outplayed Hakeem. Those two in their primes were very comparable. Great poise and discipline on offense and defense, a laundry list of moves and countermoves, etc. In their primes Hakeem was probably better on defense and Tim had the more versatile and complete offensive game. Hakeem would not have CRUSHED Tim like many claim.

I'd suggest all you guys go here: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi

Compare Tim to ANY big man who pops into your head since Tim enetered the league and see if ANY of them managed to even outplay Tim, let alone dominate him.

Oh and here: rR6AgYWdoBQ&feature

Shastafarian

05-22-2010, 10:25 PM

Let's see how Hakeem fared against DRob.

http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/6056/picture1hq.png (http://img576.imageshack.us/i/picture1hq.png/)

Ouch

elbamba

05-22-2010, 10:25 PM

lol, like the Rockets could control who came out of the East. So, by that logic, Duncan never had to beat a prime Jordan at anytime because he retired again?

Read the full post or stop using selective portions. Duncan beat the best team in his day, the Kobe Shaq Lakers. The Rockets never got to play Jordan's Bulls.

When people think of the NBA and the 90s they only think about Jordan and the 6 championships won by the Bulls. Not the 99 spurs or the 94-95 Rockets.

djohn2oo8

05-22-2010, 11:31 PM

Read the full post or stop using selective portions. Duncan beat the best team in his day, the Kobe Shaq Lakers. The Rockets never got to play Jordan's Bulls.

When people think of the NBA and the 90s they only think about Jordan and the 6 championships won by the Bulls. Not the 99 spurs or the 94-95 Rockets.

I don't give a fuck what people remember about the 90's, saying that Hakeem didn't have to face Jordan makes his legacy less legit is about as dumb as they come. Oh, and so Duncan beat the Lakers by himself?

The Third Man

05-22-2010, 11:41 PM

This is the of kind talk that happens when your team is out of the playoffs. Who fucking cares?

duhoh

05-23-2010, 12:29 AM

Shaq+Kobe during this era was better than any team Jordan faced. IMO

bold statement there. stockton+malone was fricken incredible. to this day i can't believe that jordan got passed that. that utah squad was so good.

MaNu4Tres

05-23-2010, 12:50 AM

bold statement there. stockton+malone was fricken incredible. to this day i can't believe that jordan got passed that. that utah squad was so good.

When I say team's Jordan faced, I meant the team's Jordan faced in his era (1991-1998). Not Bird or Magic's era.

And yes I'm pretty confident that the Shaq/Kobe teams from 1999-2004 was better than any team the Jazz put on the floor in the 90's.

ynh

05-23-2010, 04:34 AM

Shaq+Kobe during this era was better than any team Jordan faced. IMO
.

Really? You ever watch the Bad Boys play?

MaNu4Tres

05-23-2010, 04:58 AM

Really? You ever watch the Bad Boys play?

It's called reading bud...

The post right before the one you just posted..

You might want to read it

MaNu4Tres

05-23-2010, 05:00 AM

For clarity read post #287, #288, #289, and #290 in sequence.

Read post #259 for further clarification, since most people are too lazy to read everything.

Mr.Robinson

05-23-2010, 06:35 AM

would olajuwon shred duncan into pieces?

No. Tim from 99 to 06 is the greatest defender the league has had. It is a fucking shame he doesn't have a DPOY award. Tim rarely went for pump fakes. Greatest one on one defender ever. Hakeem was good but people tend to salivate on some highlight reels of him. Prime Duncan had speed as well.
People forget Duncan beat a prime Kobe and Prime Shaq with a team full of role players. Parker and Manu were not good that season. Stephen Jackson was average. Kerr was ancient. Claxton played a good reserve role. Robinson was ancient and broken down. Bowen was torched by Kobe in 03. Duncan did it all.
So, no, Hakeem wouldn't tear him to shreds. Prime Duncan was a beast and has four rings to prove it.

Indazone

05-23-2010, 09:07 AM

Olajuwan tore a Prime Robinson to shreds, Duncan would get the same treatment. Book it.

m33p0

05-23-2010, 09:11 AM

Olajuwan tore a Prime Robinson to shreds, Duncan would get the same treatment. Book it.

nope.

dbestpro

05-23-2010, 09:32 AM

Olajuwon was a center. Duncan a PF. Compare to Robinson, Nesterovic, and Oberto if you want to compare to a Spurs center.

JamStone

05-23-2010, 09:34 AM

No. Tim from 99 to 06 is the greatest defender the league has had. It is a fucking shame he doesn't have a DPOY award. Tim rarely went for pump fakes. Greatest one on one defender ever. Hakeem was good but people tend to salivate on some highlight reels of him. Prime Duncan had speed as well.
People forget Duncan beat a prime Kobe and Prime Shaq with a team full of role players. Parker and Manu were not good that season. Stephen Jackson was average. Kerr was ancient. Claxton played a good reserve role. Robinson was ancient and broken down. Bowen was torched by Kobe in 03. Duncan did it all.
So, no, Hakeem wouldn't tear him to shreds. Prime Duncan was a beast and has four rings to prove it.

You said "Hakeem was good." Ummmmmmm ok.

You can praise Duncan without demonstrating such crazy bias against Hakeem. He was just "good???"

Duncan didn't guard Kobe.

Hakeem beat a non-fat Shaq. Made Shaq look like Betty White out there. But that's not what his girlfriend says.

Hakeem in his (short) prime was the greatest big man to play the game. Unstoppable, unguardable on offense and a complete defensive force on defense, from shot blocking to rebounding to intimidation to steals to switching with the ability to step out and defend the perimeter as well as any big man up to that point. Elite big men like KG and Ben Wallace and Kenyon Martin, who had the athleticism and quickness to step out on the perimeter to defend, didn't really exist much before the 90s. Big men were strong and stiff. Hakeem wasn't.

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 09:55 AM

http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/6056/picture1hq.png (http://img576.imageshack.us/i/picture1hq.png/)

JamStone

05-23-2010, 10:00 AM

Now post the playoff head-to-head stats.

djohn2oo8

05-23-2010, 10:02 AM

Keep on quoting those statistics

CmLR_VgbqAA

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 10:09 AM

Now post the playoff head-to-head stats.
I can't seem to find h2h playoff stats on basketballreference. Here's their playoffs totals from the year Hakeem "destroyed" Robinson.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/950/picture2mf.png (http://img85.imageshack.us/i/picture2mf.png/)

Keep on quoting those statistics

Ok. Since you guys use them for ONE SERIES to prove Hakeem was so much better than Robinson, I'll use season stats to show that if he was, he sure didn't show it.

But hey, this guy could beat any big man into the ground. He just chose not to unless the year was 1994 or 1995 and it was the playoffs.

djohn2oo8

05-23-2010, 10:15 AM

I can't seem to find h2h playoff stats on basketballreference. Here's their playoffs totals from the year Hakeem "destroyed" Robinson.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/950/picture2mf.png (http://img85.imageshack.us/i/picture2mf.png/)

Ok. Since you guys use them for ONE SERIES to prove Hakeem was so much better than Robinson, I'll use season stats to show that if he was, he sure didn't show it.

But hey, this guy could beat any big man into the ground. He just chose not to unless the year was 1994 or 1995 and it was the playoffs.

You're just fucking retarded...No point in arguing

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 10:15 AM

You're just fucking retarded...No point in arguing

Because season stats shouldn't matter. Gotcha.

djohn2oo8

05-23-2010, 10:18 AM

Because season stats shouldn't matter. Gotcha.

:lol Using season stats over playoff stats, gotcha

djohn2oo8

05-23-2010, 10:19 AM

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 10:20 AM

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 10:21 AM

:lol Using season stats over playoff stats, gotcha

:lol Clearly someone is butthurt. I'll use season stats in addition to playoff stats. You seem to want to ignore season stats all together because they make Hakeem seem ordinary. But he could beat any big man ever....as long as it was 1994 or 1995 and it was the playoffs.

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 10:23 AM

Amazing that Robinson needed Duncan to win it all, and yet people say Duncan had shittier teams than Hakeem

I'm not even saying Robinson was better than Hakeem. He wasn't. I'm showing you why Hakeem finished 12th in MVP one year and why people inflate him now as opposed to when he played.

apalisoc_9

05-23-2010, 10:24 AM

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/1808/picture1h.png (http://img580.imageshack.us/i/picture1h.png/)

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2941/picture2tp.png (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/picture2tp.png/)

Dude, The more you post this stats the more you show how good Hakeem was. There is no argument as to who had the better career.

But c'mon!! saying TD or robinson over 95 hakkem is just pure homerism. Dude, Hakkem butfucked everyone that year!! everyone!!.

JamStone

05-23-2010, 10:24 AM

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 10:25 AM

Dude, The more you post this stats the more you show how good Hakeem was. There is no argument as to who had the better career.Um...what?

But c'mon!! saying TD or robinson over 95 hakkem is just pure homerism. Dude, Hakkem butfucked everyone that year!! everyone!!.

In the playoffs he did. I'll talk slower if it helps.

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 10:27 AM

Hakeem v. Robinson in the 1995 playoffs (6 games, Houston 4 wins, San Antonio 2 wins):

Robinson

23.8 PPG
11.3 RPG
2.7 APG
2.2 BPG
44.9 FG%

Hakeem

35.3 PPG
12.5 RPG
5.0 APG
4.2 BPG
56.0 FG%

I calculated those myself so feel free to double check.
I'm not denying Hakeem dominated Robinson that year. I keep posting season stats for a reason.

But he could beat any big man ever....as long as it was 1994 or 1995 and it was the playoffs

Where do you get the raw stats btw?

apalisoc_9

05-23-2010, 10:28 AM

Um...what?

In the playoffs he did. I'll talk slower if it helps.

And in the regular season.

Tell me, would a prime duncan or a prime robinson achive what a 95 hakeem achive?

Plus, arnt you supposed to be a spursfan? I would think you would give more importance to the playoffs.

JamStone

05-23-2010, 10:30 AM

I'm not denying Hakeem dominated Robinson that year. I keep posting season stats for a reason.

Do you not see the word "prime" in the title?

djohn2oo8

05-23-2010, 10:31 AM

:lol Clearly someone is butthurt. I'll use season stats in addition to playoff stats. You seem to want to ignore season stats all together because they make Hakeem seem ordinary. But he could beat any big man ever....as long as it was 1994 or 1995 and it was the playoffs.

:lmao Playoff numbers make Robinson look ordinary

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 10:31 AM

And in the regular season.

Tell me, would a prime duncan or a prime robinson achive what a 95 hakeem achive? Obviously prime Robinson wouldn't have. Who knows about prime Duncan. It's the whole basis of the debate. Try and keep up.

Plus, arnt you supposed to be a spursfan? I would think you would give more importance to the playoffs.
More importance? See if you can find me another playoff series where Hakeem dominated Robinson.

JamStone

05-23-2010, 10:31 AM

Where do you get the raw stats btw?

Same basketball reference you're using.

"Game logs" feature.

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 10:32 AM

Do you not see the word "prime" in the title?

I asked where you got the raw stats so I could look back and see when those 42 h2h games took place. Unless you wanna argue that Hakeem's prime ended in 1995.

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 10:33 AM

Same basketball reference you're using.

"Game logs" feature.

thanks

DUNCANownsKOBE2

05-23-2010, 10:33 AM

Unless you wanna argue that Hakeem's prime ended in 1995.

It did.

djohn2oo8

05-23-2010, 10:33 AM

Obviously prime Robinson wouldn't have. Who knows about prime Duncan. It's the whole basis of the debate. Try and keep up.

More importance? See if you can find me another playoff series where Hakeem dominated Robinson.

Hakeem playoff averages:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html

Robinson: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/robinda01.html

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 10:37 AM

Hakeem playoff averages:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html

Robinson: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/robinda01.html

Those are head-2-head?

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 10:37 AM

Same basketball reference you're using.

"Game logs" feature.

It's gonna take forever to crunch these numbers. But I'll do it. Maybe tonight. Just by skimming through Robinson's rookie year, he outplayed Hakeem.

apalisoc_9

05-23-2010, 10:39 AM

Obviously prime Robinson wouldn't have. Who knows about prime Duncan. It's the whole basis of the debate. Try and keep up.

More importance? See if you can find me another playoff series where Hakeem dominated Robinson.

dude, Hakeem butfcuked better bigmen!! shit your homerim is reaching kobe ran levels..lols

djohn2oo8

05-23-2010, 10:39 AM

Those are head-2-head?

Those are in general. Do I have to post stats head to head when it clearly shows who put up the better numbers over a longer period of time?

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 10:41 AM

Those are in general. Do I have to post stats head to head when it clearly shows who put up the better numbers over a longer period of time?

Well that was my question. I asked if that guy could find another playoff series where Hakeem dominated Robinson.

JamStone

05-23-2010, 10:42 AM

It's gonna take forever to crunch these numbers. But I'll do it. Maybe tonight. Just by skimming through Robinson's rookie year, he outplayed Hakeem.

If you're trying to calculate a portion of their playoff stats, don't use game logs. Go to the playoff section on their main page and they have the raw numbers of each playoff. It's not each game, but it's the entire playoffs. That will make it easier for you to calculate what you think are their respective "primes." It shouldn't take more than 5 minutes, 10 minutes at most.

Pelicans78

05-23-2010, 10:43 AM

Ok. Was his 84-97 better than Duncan's 97-2010?

Tougher league back then. Less teams, more concentrated talent. Hakeem did beat the 80s Lakers in the WCF and only lost to a monster Celtic team in the Finals.

More teams now, teams are more diluted. Hakeem played in a tougher era with alot more great big men.

Honestly, other than Shaq, how many great big men were there during Duncan's era?

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 10:43 AM

Just by skimming through Robinson's rookie year, he outplayed Hakeem.

Hakeem shot 37% in the 3 games in 1990/1991 against San Antonio as well. Robinson shot 54% with 21/11. To be fair, it looks like Hakeem was injured for 2 of those games. Robinson played 5 vs Hakeem's 3.

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 10:44 AM

If you're trying to calculate a portion of their playoff stats, don't use game logs. Go to the playoff section on their main page and they have the raw numbers of each playoff. It's not each game, but it's the entire playoffs. That will make it easier for you to calculate what you think are their respective "primes." It shouldn't take more than 5 minutes, 10 minutes at most.
I'm not looking at playoffs. I'm looking at the 42 games they played against each other in the regular seasons of their careers to show that "prime" Hakeem still didn't fare well against a young Robinson.

djohn2oo8

05-23-2010, 10:44 AM

Well that was my question. I asked if that guy could find another playoff series where Hakeem dominated Robinson.

:lol He doesn't need to. you think a prime Hakeem wouldn't dominate him again?

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 10:46 AM

:lol He doesn't need to. you think a prime Hakeem wouldn't dominate him again?

I dunno. Going on several seasons versus 1 playoff series makes it hard to say. WHICH IS EXACTLY WHY I ASKED.

apalisoc_9

05-23-2010, 10:47 AM

Well that was my question. I asked if that guy could find another playoff series where Hakeem dominated Robinson.

I never said the word dominated!! Still Hakeem was slightly better in other playoffs.

And i was talking about 95 dude!! 95!!

JamStone

05-23-2010, 10:48 AM

I guess than you're making a different argument.

I think my point would be when they faced each other, both well in their prime (late 20s, early 30s), in the playoffs when games actually really matter, Hakeem dropped a steaming hot load on David Robinson.

It was one playoff series, yes. But that's when it truly mattered.

If your argument is that in the regular season, David Robinson fared well against Hakeem, I wouldn't argue that.

In their primes, facing each other head-to-head when every game and every possession mattered, that's where it counts. You look at your Spurs now with the way Pop plays Manu and Duncan in the regular season, and how they perform in the playoffs, you know it's simply not the same to compare regular season games and playoff games.

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 10:48 AM

And I'll clarify this again for all the people who won't read the entire thread. I'm not saying Robinson was better than Hakeem. What I'm calling into question is Hakeem's consistency. If he was such a dominant figure, why couldn't he outplay these guys in the regular season? I think everyone agrees he was more skilled than Robinson. Why did it only really show in one playoff series?

djohn2oo8

05-23-2010, 10:50 AM

JamStone

05-23-2010, 10:51 AM

Well, first it only showed in one playoff series because they only played one playoff series. If they met more times in the playoffs, both in their prime, I think the same would have happened.

There could be a number of reasons why players play well or poorly in the regular season. Fatigue from back-to-backs and travel, playing through injury, any number of personal issues. That's why playoff stats are much more important and much better a gauge. That's when players really show their mettle and talent.

Do you look at Manu's regular season stats to determine how good a player he is?

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 10:52 AM

I guess than you're making a different argument.I'm making a different argument to the same end though.

I think my point would be when they faced each other, both well in their prime (late 20s, early 30s), in the playoffs when games actually really matter, Hakeem dropped a steaming hot load on David Robinson.

It was one playoff series, yes. But that's when it truly mattered.What I'm getting at is the sample size is too large to ignore. 6 vs 42 for Robinson. I might just look up other big men.

If your argument is that in the regular season, David Robinson fared well against Hakeem, I wouldn't argue that.

In their primes, facing each other head-to-head when every game and every possession mattered, that's where it counts. You look at your Spurs now with the way Pop plays Manu and Duncan in the regular season, and how they perform in the playoffs, you know it's simply not the same to compare regular season games and playoff games.
Here's where Hakeem's two year dominance makes me wonder. Why did he only dominate others in those two years? He made the playoffs every year except one. I haven't looked but I doubt if you go back you can say he took apart other big in other playoff years.

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 10:54 AM

Well, first it only showed in one playoff series because they only played one playoff series. If they met more times in the playoffs, both in their prime, I think the same would have happened.Probable. But I don't like probabilities when they're used as certainties.

There could be a number of reasons why players play well or poorly in the regular season. Fatigue from back-to-backs and travel, playing through injury, any number of personal issues. That's why playoff stats are much more important and much better a gauge. That's when players really show their mettle and talent.And later on I'll look to see how he did against other bigs in playoff series throughout his career.

Do you look at Manu's regular season stats to determine how good a player he is?
In the seasons that he's been relatively healthy? Absolutely. Regular seasons help define players as well and I don't just discount them because I feel like it.

MaNu4Tres

05-23-2010, 01:38 PM

djohn2oo8

05-23-2010, 01:41 PM

Hakeem got hot one series.

Saying regular season head to head match-ups doesn't matter is ridiculous.

It's like saying Sasha Vujacic is so much better than Manu Ginobili because in 2008 Vujacic got the better of Manu.

Ignoring the regular season head to head matches is stupid and ignorant for any objective fan with an opinion. Especially considering they've only played 6 playoff games where the sample size is extremely small.

:rollinPrime Hakeem got hot for one series? Oh lawd, please tell me you aren't this biased....You're making Yaofans look decent

I know you didn't just fucking compare Hakeem to Sasha and Ginobli to Robinson :lmao:lmao:lmao

MaNu4Tres

05-23-2010, 01:55 PM

:rollinPrime Hakeem got hot for one series? Oh lawd, please tell me you aren't this biased....You're making Yaofans look decent

Maybe your comprehension skills need some work?

You think I'm too ignorant to understand that he's a Hall of Fame player?
:lol

Grow up. And have a decent take on your own for once instead stupid sophomoric one-liners.

I know Olajuwon had many great performances in the playoffs, just like any Hall of Famer. I respect Olajuwon for what he's done in the league. He's a top 25 player to ever play in the NBA, that I'm sure.

I'm just saying it's ignorant to ignore the other times him and Robinson faced each other.

JamStone

05-23-2010, 01:59 PM

Hakeem got hot one series.

Saying regular season head to head match-ups doesn't matter is ridiculous.

It's like saying Sasha Vujacic is so much better than Manu Ginobili because in 2008 Vujacic got the better of Manu for 5 games.

Ignoring the regular season head to head matches is stupid and ignorant for any objective fan with an opinion. Especially considering they've only played 6 playoff games where the sample size is extremely small.

Vujacic averaged 7 points on 30% FG shooting for that series. Ginobili, as bad as he played, average 13 points on 36% shooting.

They both sucked. But it certainly isn't anywhere near the hot shit Hakeem took on D-Rob in 1995.

Regular season matters. But I don't think it matters nearly as much as the playoffs.

djohn2oo8

05-23-2010, 02:03 PM

Maybe your comprehension skills need some work?

You think I'm too ignorant to understand that he's a Hall of Fame player?
:lol

Grow up. And have a decent take on your own for once instead stupid sophomoric one-liners.

I know Olajuwon had many great performances in the playoffs, just like any Hall of Famer. I respect Olajuwon for what he's done in the league. He's a top 25 player to ever play in the NBA, that I'm sure.

I'm just saying it's ignorant to ignore the other times him and Robinson faced each other.

Matchups are going to be different each time, but the playoffs is where it matters the most. Unfortunately, that's the only time they played each other in the playoffs. Sure they had good matchups, but nobody remembers matchups in the regular season.

So do we go around remembering all the times Duncan faced Shaq? No, we know how great he was in his prime

mogrovejo

05-23-2010, 02:07 PM

MaNu4Tres

05-23-2010, 02:12 PM

Vujacic averaged 7 points on 30% FG shooting for that series. Ginobili, as bad as he played, average 13 points on 36% shooting.

They both sucked. But it certainly isn't anywhere near the hot shit Hakeem took on D-Rob in 1995.

Regular season matters. But I don't think it matters nearly as much as the playoffs.

I'm clearly talking about Sasha's defense limiting Manu in the playoff series. I'm not talking about Sasha's offensive output.

I'm using the metaphor that Sasha's defense got the better of Manu, such as Olajuwon's offense got the better of Robinson.

Not Sasha's overall offensive output got the better of Manu, such as Olajuwons offense got the better of Robinson.

I agree playoffs mean more than the regular season, but when the sample size is so small (6 games) in relation to the total amount of games they actually played (42) it's not fair to base Robinson vs. Olajuwon because of 6 games. Did Olajuwon's offense get the better of Robinson for 6 games, you bet it did. Just like it did to many other teams, during the 1994-1995 run when the top 25 player of all time was at his ultimate peak.

JamStone

05-23-2010, 02:17 PM

JoeTait75

05-23-2010, 02:20 PM

I haven't looked but I doubt if you go back you can say he took apart other big in other playoff years.

Well, he dominated Kareem in the 1986 WCF as a second-year player. And he was a monster in a losing cause against Boston's great front line in the Finals that year. Houston lost that series because the Celtics were a better team and because Ralph Sampson vanished off the face of the earth- not because of Hakeem.

MaNu4Tres

05-23-2010, 02:32 PM

Still think you came with a pretty far fetched analogy to make the point.

Hakeem and D-Rob only met in the playoffs once. Had they met more times, we could use those series to evaluate as well. But their one meeting in the playoffs was at a time where both players were in their prime. It's a good evaluation.

Don't ignore regular season stats. I can give you that. But most people would likely agree that the playoffs give a much better gauge of player evaluations, even if the sample size is small.

And Hakeem is only a top 25 player of all time for you?

Just curious, where would you rank him?

I wasn't really deliberating on where he ranked all time when I posted previously, since I was dealing with another subject. I threw out a number that I was completely sure of (Top 25).

But since you now ask me where he ranks.

IMO Best Centers of All-Time:

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Abdul-Jabbar
3. Russel
4. Shaq
5. Olajuwon
6. Robinson
7. Moses Malone
8. George Mikan
9. Patrick Ewing
10. Bill Walton

Now if you ask me where I'd put Duncan in this list? I'd put him at number 4 with Shaq.

MaNu4Tres

05-23-2010, 02:37 PM

I'm giving Russel the benefit of the doubt, due to the respect he has around the league.

I truly believe 5 players on that list where better all around players (6 if you include Duncan).

JamStone

05-23-2010, 02:37 PM

That's fair. Disagree, but it's fair. I'd put Hakeem ahead of Shaq and Duncan (if you listed him among centers). But I wouldn't make a huge deal if you think either are better. I just found it odd you mentioned "top 25" when I thought most people considered Hakeem a top 10 player of all time, maybe top 15 at worst.

hitmanyr2k

05-23-2010, 02:44 PM

I'm clearly talking about Sasha's defense limiting Manu in the playoff series. I'm not talking about Sasha's offensive output.

I'm using the metaphor that Sasha's defense got the better of Manu, such as Olajuwon's offense got the better of Robinson.

Not Sasha's overall offensive output got the better of Manu, such as Olajuwons offense got the better of Robinson.

I agree playoffs mean more than the regular season, but when the sample size is so small (6 games) in relation to the total amount of games they actually played (42) it's not fair to base Robinson vs. Olajuwon because of 6 games. Did Olajuwon's offense get the better of Robinson for 6 games, you bet it did. Just like it did to many other teams, during the 1994-1995 run when the top 25 player of all time was at his ultimate peak.

Wasn't Ginobili playing on one leg in that series? :lol Cmon, you can't make that analogy. Robinson and Olajuwon were both healthy and in their primes and Olajuwon took Robinson to the woodshed. No comparison.

jag

05-23-2010, 02:44 PM

This thread is too long. I'm very inclined to say Olajuwon, at least if we're comparing primes, but I'm not entirely sure. Cliff notes with the best arguments of both sides? # of the best posts from either side?

I read through it in about 20 min or so. It was an obvious troll thread but turned into a decent debate. Overall, I'd say Baseline Bum had the best posts in the entire thread. I guess for some reason i have a difficult time accepting the opinions of Rockets fans who are either 15 years old, Chinese, or Steve Francis era bandwagoners. Harlemheat also made a good point about Hakeem being slightly inflated in the minds of present day basketball fans. Fans watch highlights or classic games and fall in love with the flash and flair, similar to today...they forget that at the time, he was on a very level plane with Robinson and Shaq. To an extent, Robinson and especially shaq were considered better.

Hakeem was obviously great, and he was the best big man in the game for maybe 2 seasons, but people look at raw stats and think he was so much better than Duncan is now, or than Robinson or shaq. Its like looking at raw stats between Garnett and Duncan, it doesn't tell the whole story.

You have to be very specific if you want to look at Hakeem's prime, that's not the case with Duncan. Who would i take if i were building a team...1993-1995 Hakeem or 2000-2008 Duncan? Duncan. Who would i take for one playoff run? Hakeem. It's a stupid argument.

MaNu4Tres

05-23-2010, 02:48 PM

I read through it in about 20 min or so. It was an obvious troll thread but turned into a decent debate. Overall, I'd say Baseline Bum had the best posts in the entire thread. I guess for some reason i have a difficult time accepting the opinions of Rockets fans who are either 15 years old, Chinese, or Steve Francis era bandwagoners. Harlemheat also made a good point about Hakeem being slightly inflated in the minds of present day basketball fans. Fans watch highlights or classic games and fall in love with the flash and flair, similar to today...they forget that at the time, he was on a very level plane with Robinson and Shaq. To an extent, Robinson and especially shaq were considered better.

Hakeem was obviously great, and he was the best big man in the game for maybe 2 seasons, but people look at raw stats and think he was so much better than Duncan is now, or than Robinson or shaq. Its like looking at raw stats between Garnett and Duncan, it doesn't tell the whole story.

You have to be very specific if you want to look at Hakeem's prime, that's not the case with Duncan. Who would i take if i were building a team...1993-1995 Hakeem or 2000-2008 Duncan? Duncan. Who would i take for one playoff run? Hakeem. It's a stupid argument.

Well said :toast

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 03:02 PM

Well, he dominated Kareem in the 1986 WCF as a second-year player. And he was a monster in a losing cause against Boston's great front line in the Finals that year. Houston lost that series because the Celtics were a better team and because Ralph Sampson vanished off the face of the earth- not because of Hakeem.

Kareem was 38 for that series. He had been in decline since the 81/82 season.

TD 21

05-23-2010, 03:55 PM

Olajuwon was a lot better than just "top 25 player of all time". He's definitely a top 15 player of all time and arguably a fringe top 10 player.

I know it's blasphemy to put any center not named Abdul-Jabbar above Russell and Chamberlain, but look at the era they played in and the (relatively) weak competition compared to today. Think of the minimal playoff games they had to win to cop the championship, the fact that they played mostly against players significantly smaller than them (particularly in Chamberlain's case).

I'm not saying I know for sure that Olajuwon, O'Neal and Duncan were better or that i'd put them above Russell and Chamberlain, but I wouldn't automatically dismiss it/rule it out like so many. It's not that outlandish to think that they were.

Even though I didn't see any of the three, knowing what I know about them and having a fairly good idea of how each played, strength/weaknesses, performance in the clutch, stats, historical accomplishments, etc., I'd say Abdul-Jabbar was probably the best center of all-time.

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 04:49 PM

Being tied for 8th seed to eventually get swept out by a pathetic Suns team that plays no defense is just as bad. Duncan will miss the playoffs soon enough.

He'll have never missed the playoffs in his prime Miss Cleo.

Ghazi

05-23-2010, 04:50 PM

I hope the Spurs can get the 8 seed next year so the Mavs can sweep that ass

monosylab1k

05-23-2010, 04:51 PM

I hope the Spurs can get the 8 seed next year so the Mavs can sweep that ass

brah with Charles Barkley Jr. there's no way the Spurs win less than 70 games next season.

D-Wade #3

05-23-2010, 04:52 PM

I hope the Spurs can get the 8 seed next year so the Mavs can sweep that ass

:wakeup

Shastafarian

05-23-2010, 04:56 PM

I hope the Spurs can get the 7 seed next year so the Mavs can sweep that ass

Dated April 28th, 2009.

kingmalaki

05-23-2010, 11:02 PM

It seems like the question is asking who would win a 1-1 matchup, or if the two went head-to-head? I think it's safe to say if Hakeem could drop 40+ on Robinson, who I feel was a better defebder than Duncan, then Duncan really couldn't stop him. Amare was too quick for him in one playoff matchup and Hakeem was just as quick, bigger, with a jumper and a post game. The guy got 2 titles going through Ewing, Robinson and Shaq. I don't think he would be bothered by facing Timmy.

This is not to say Timmy isn't great, but if you are asking can Hakeem get his on Timmy then I don't see why you wouldn't think so.

kingmalaki

05-23-2010, 11:12 PM

I'm laughing at folks saying Hakeem couldn't get past, or to Jordan. Didn't Kobe send Duncan home a few times, the last time with Gasol? Didn't Nash send him home this year?

kingmalaki

05-23-2010, 11:19 PM

They weren't the dominant force of his era and you know it. Stop playing games. If you disagree that Duncan was better, fine, but there's no denying this: He got past the other dominant force of his era two times, while Olajuwon never even got to the dominant force of his era.

You are really reaching in so many ways, but I'll play along.

Duncan only got past the dominant force once...in 2003, and that was a hell of an accomplishment for him. Kobe wasn't "Kobe" in 1999, when the Spurs beat LA. Phil Jackson wasn't there either. He lost to them 3 more times (01, 02, 04) and lost to Kobe again in 08. Are you bragging on a losing record to those guys, with one of the wins coming when Kobe was a pup? Really now?

Additionally, the dominant force of the 80's was Magic Johnson, not Jordan. Hakeem got his Rockets past the Lakers (who went to the Finals 8 times in the 80's) in 1986. Jordan also played in 95, and got ousted by Orlando, the team Hakeem swept. If you are arguing that Shaq was the dominant force that Duncan got past (as opposed to Shaq & Kobe), then Hakeem swept him in 95.

Get a solid argument please. :lol:lol

xellos88330

05-23-2010, 11:54 PM

I can't figure out which one is better, but I would love to see it.

sook

05-24-2010, 12:01 AM

I wasn't really deliberating on where he ranked all time when I posted previously, since I was dealing with another subject. I threw out a number that I was completely sure of (Top 25).

But since you now ask me where he ranks.

IMO Best Centers of All-Time:

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Abdul-Jabbar
3. Russel
4. Shaq
5. Olajuwon
6. Robinson
7. Moses Malone
8. George Mikan
9. Patrick Ewing
10. Bill Walton

Now if you ask me where I'd put Duncan in this list? I'd put him at number 4 with Shaq.

god you stupid little homer you...is that list for real?

You're telling me you place Shaq and Duncan above olajuwon?

If youre going to go off of career achievements you can make the case for paul pierce being a greater SF than Lebron.

Abdul Jabaar is THE GREATEST CENTER TO EVER PLAY THE GAME.

I hope you understand the notion, because you sound like a shit head with your little stat comparisons.

He is followed by Olajuwon, a better defensive/offensive combo however.

Now spurs fans can whine all they want about Duncan being a PF, but he's a C, and he follows right after with Shaq right below him. Then comes malone.

I feel bad and i think its unfair that I'm judging you because you never even got a chance to watch them play...which is out of your control. But lay off the crack pipe my friend.

sook

05-24-2010, 12:02 AM

Hakeem got hot one series.

Saying regular season head to head match-ups doesn't matter is ridiculous.

It's like saying Sasha Vujacic is so much better than Manu Ginobili because in 2008 Vujacic got the better of Manu for 5 games.

Ignoring the regular season head to head matches is stupid and ignorant for any objective fan with an opinion. Especially considering they've only played 6 playoff games where the sample size is extremely small.

Hot for one series ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? :lol:lol:lol:lmao:lmao

Excuse me while I take a shit in my sink.

sook

05-24-2010, 12:04 AM

Aggie Hoopsdouche

05-24-2010, 12:11 AM

Great post comparing their stats Shasta :tu. Its a good idea to ignore playoff results when they were in their primes. Stuff like this is irrelevant. Everyone knows true fans judge players on their regular season stats not anything gay like how they did heads up in the playoffs.

hW4uXlRGAF0

MaNu4Tres

05-24-2010, 12:31 AM

I read through it in about 20 min or so. It was an obvious troll thread but turned into a decent debate. Overall, I'd say Baseline Bum had the best posts in the entire thread. I guess for some reason i have a difficult time accepting the opinions of Rockets fans who are either 15 years old, Chinese, or Steve Francis era bandwagoners. ]Harlemheat also made a good point about Hakeem being slightly inflated in the minds of present day basketball fans. Fans watch highlights or classic games and fall in love with the flash and flair, similar to today...they forget that at the time, he was on a very level plane with Robinson and Shaq. To an extent, Robinson and especially shaq were considered better.

Hakeem was obviously great, and he was the best big man in the game for maybe 2 seasons, but people look at raw stats and think he was so much better than Duncan is now, or than Robinson or shaq. Its like looking at raw stats between Garnett and Duncan, it doesn't tell the whole story.

You have to be very specific if you want to look at Hakeem's prime, that's not the case with Duncan. Who would i take if i were building a team...1993-1995 Hakeem or 2000-2008 Duncan? Duncan. Who would i take for one playoff run? Hakeem. It's a stupid argument.

Booharv

05-24-2010, 12:39 AM

Prime definitions:

"being at the best stage of development; "our manhood's prime vigor"- Robert Browning"

"the time of maturity when power and vigor are greatest"

"The period or phase of ideal or peak condition"

I don't know why people keep trying to drag the definition of prime out over a five or seven year period...actually wait I kinda do... But prime means you take the absolutely best version of a thing and compare it to the best version of another thing. You don't have them face off once a year for ten years (Hakeem would still win that imo). You have their two best versions face each other. Like 2003-05 Duncan versus 1993-1995 Hakeem. Or 1995 Hakeem versus 2003 Duncan if you want to narrow it further. Take them from their best seasons. For Tim statistically including the playoffs its 2003, and for Hakeem that's 1995 considering his playoff performance. That's a prime matchup. This thread has included about 5+ pages wasting time because of a misunderstanding of the definition of "prime".

If a guy hit his peak and kept it there for seven, eight, or ten years, that's remarkable but if you took him out of there at his absolute best part of that perios and he couldn't beat someone else who had a much shorter prime it counts for nothing in this context.

Mr.Robinson

05-24-2010, 03:30 PM

You said "Hakeem was good." Ummmmmmm ok.

You can praise Duncan without demonstrating such crazy bias against Hakeem. He was just "good???"

Duncan didn't guard Kobe.

Hakeem beat a non-fat Shaq. Made Shaq look like Betty White out there. But that's not what his girlfriend says.

Hakeem in his (short) prime was the greatest big man to play the game. Unstoppable, unguardable on offense and a complete defensive force on defense, from shot blocking to rebounding to intimidation to steals to switching with the ability to step out and defend the perimeter as well as any big man up to that point. Elite big men like KG and Ben Wallace and Kenyon Martin, who had the athleticism and quickness to step out on the perimeter to defend, didn't really exist much before the 90s. Big men were strong and stiff. Hakeem wasn't.
I never said anything negative about hakeem. He was great. Is that better? I have him in my top 10. Duncan was better. Duncan was unguardable as well from 99 to 05. Hakeem's stats would eaily be matched by Tim if he had played against some of the stiffs Hakeem did. Yes, there were more stiffs than good centers in those days. Duncan played for under POP's system his whole career, that system isn't going to be stat friendly. Yet, Duncan's highs were 25/13/3 not in the same season but they compare to Hakeem's highs. Duncan is so underrated it's a fucking crime. 4 rings and he still gets shafted. I say this not to hate on Hakeem but to praise Duncan. If it wasn't for him the Lakers could have won six in a row. Single fucking handedly beat the Lakers. He was not to be stopped. Hakeem's 94 and 95 seasons were insane but the NBA wasn't what it was today. Duncan in 03 was a motherfucking Titan.

JamStone

05-24-2010, 03:45 PM

I never said anything negative about hakeem. He was great. Is that better? I have him in my top 10. Duncan was better. Duncan was unguardable as well from 99 to 05. Hakeem's stats would eaily be matched by Tim if he had played against some of the stiffs Hakeem did. Yes, there were more stiffs than good centers in those days. Duncan played for under POP's system his whole career, that system isn't going to be stat friendly. Yet, Duncan's highs were 25/13/3 not in the same season but they compare to Hakeem's highs. Duncan is so underrated it's a fucking crime. 4 rings and he still gets shafted. I say this not to hate on Hakeem but to praise Duncan. If it wasn't for him the Lakers could have won six in a row. Single fucking handedly beat the Lakers. He was not to be stopped. Hakeem's 94 and 95 seasons were insane but the NBA wasn't what it was today. Duncan in 03 was a motherfucking Titan.

You mean like Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, a non-fat Shaquille O'Neal, and Alonzo Mourning? Late 80s to mid 90s actually had maybe the best group of quality centers at the same time in NBA history. As a group, I don't think there was another era that had a better collection of quality centers at the same time. Even had an old Kareem and old Moses for a couple years in the mid 80s. Hell, look at now and the current NBA's best center has no post game.

And moreover, the first few seasons of Tim's NBA career was spent with David Robinson. While David wasn't the same player as he was earlier in his career, he still afforded Tim to not have to defend the opposing team's best big man, or at the very least share in that duty. And you look at the other elite big men in the league during the last 10 or so years and you have hybrid PF/C like KG and Dirk who are perimeter oriented big men. You can't say at all with any certainty that Duncan would dominated the same way Hakeem did in his prime.

Sometimes I hate these debates because it ends up with arguments that makes it seem you have to discredit one player for the sake of praising the other. Yes, I believe Hakeem in his prime was better than Tim in his prime. But I don't want it to come across that I think Tim isn't great. Tim Duncan is the greatest power forward to ever play the game. Despite my own personal opinion that at least half of his career he was actually a center, it doesn't mean I don't think he is an all time great. Both Tim and Hakeem are top 10 players in the history of the game in my opinion. It's also just my opinion that Hakeem was better. I know many disagree.

But don't tell me if someone posted that "Tim Duncan was good" you wouldn't call them out for that. You can't just call Hakeem "good." So yes, "great" is better.

kingmalaki

05-24-2010, 04:23 PM

Mr.Robinson

05-24-2010, 05:46 PM

Duncan was unguardable from 99-05?

In 01 Grant/Horry held him to 48%, down from his reg season avg. SA lost that series.

In 02 Horry held him to 42%, down from his reg season avg. SA lost that series. Duncan was 11-23 in the final game.

In 04 Malone held him to 47%, down from his reg season avg. SA lost the series. Duncan was 7-18 in the final game.

In 05 the Wallace boys held him to 42%, down from his reg season avg. SA won the series. Thank God for Robert Horry!! Duncan was 10-27 in Game 7.

None of those guys are a harder matchup than Ewing/Oakley/Mason, Robinson or Shaq. Hakeem wasn't playng that poorly against them, since we are comparing dudes at their peaks. But those numbers from Duncan don't seem unstoppable to me.
In 04 the Spurs didn't show up to play in the last game after 0.4. In 01 and 02 the Spurs had a weak ass team. Duncan had several monster games in losing efforts. He shot a poor % and had tons of turnovers. It was a case of a player being the focus of the other teams D and trying to do it all. In 05 Duncan had poor % shooting wise because Sheed was still a great defender. Big Ben and McDyess were were a better combo than Mason, Oak and Ewing. Tim won the ring with his rebounding and D. He also had 25 points in game 7. Grind it out series and the guy still had 25 points in game 7.

wekko368

05-24-2010, 08:50 PM

Big Ben and McDyess were were a better combo than Mason, Oak and Ewing.

Given the physical brand of defense that was allowed in the 90's, you are 100% wrong.

HarlemHeat37

05-24-2010, 09:03 PM

I didn't read the previous argument, but in regards to the Wallaces, that's not true..those Finals were extremely physical and the Wallace frontcourt is one of the best defensive frontcourts in NBA history..Duncan's serious injuries to his feet in 2005 are well documented too, and it wasn't some minor injury like Kobe's finger or Lebron's elbow..

Tmac&Luther

05-24-2010, 09:35 PM

I can't figure out which one is better, but I would love to see it.

Something tells me Spurs fans wouldn't be happy to see the results. Olajuwan was more athletic and more dominant on both ends of the court and this is coming from someone that respects the hell out of Tim Duncan. Olajuwon was simply the better player though, who played during a MUCH tougher era, and wasn't surrounded by the talent that Duncan has been surrounded by his entire career.

Tmac&Luther

05-24-2010, 09:36 PM

MaNu4Tres

05-24-2010, 09:42 PM

:lmao

Just to elaborate on the that exact post, which I did clarify in my posts right after.

I was comparing what Hakeem averaged against Robinson up to that series vs. those 6 games. It's evident he got hot that one series against Robinson if your comparing that series to all the other previous games he's played against Robinson.

I wasn't saying Hakeem just got hot one series out of all the other series he's played in general. I was comparing that series vs. Robinson to all the other times he's faced Robinson.

But I understand that you're probably 15 years old and too lazy to read through the posts and actually understand what is being meant, so no hard feelings.

Tmac&Luther

05-24-2010, 09:59 PM

Just to elaborate on the that exact post, which I did clarify in my posts right after.

I was comparing what Hakeem averaged against Robinson up to that series vs. those 6 games. It's evident he got hot that one series against Robinson if your comparing that series to all the other previous games he's played against Robinson.

I wasn't saying Hakeem just got hot one series out of all the other series he's played in general. I was comparing that series vs. Robinson to all the other times he's faced Robinson.

But I understand that you're probably 15 years old and too lazy to read through the posts and actually understand what is being meant, so no hard feelings.

Umm, actually I'm old enough to have had the privilege of watching Hakeem's prime, David's prime, and Duncan's entire career. And Hakeem "didn't just get hot" he got pissed when David Robinson tried to thank every great player he played against (and listed players like Barkley and other big men and failed to mention Olajuwon's name) during his MVP acceptance speech. Olajuwon being the competitor that he is and the previous MVP winner took offense to that and chose to teach Robinson a lessen so he took him to the woodshed. I love Robinson and he's a TOP NOTCH QUALITY individual, but he was a dumbass for doing that. Olajuwan was extremely prideful and he took that very personal, like Robinson blatantly insulted him.

Hakeem had Dwight and Amare's athleticism, Mutombo's defensive awareness and shot blocking instincts...actually better than Mutombo (and with his elite athleticism he was even a better defender), with the old school post moves of Kevin McHale and international players. The man didn't have a flaw in his game and could defend multiple positions. He was a better individual player/athlete than what Duncan is and has ever been....and like I said before, that isn't a insult to Duncan, it's simply fact.

When did y'all ever see Ducan have the ability to do all of this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBrEsNS9zKg

Duncan is a alltime great, Olajuwon was just better, don't take insult to that...Olajuwon was a great player and we'll probably never witness a big man with so much all around skills again. I pray we do, even if that player ends up playing for the Spurs or Mavs...because I got so much joy out of watching what Hekeem was physically able to do, but even though I had high hopes for Amare and Dwight...they haven't shown the drive to develop that all around game and skill and now I'm convinced that in today's guard oriented league, that we'll never see another Hakeem Olajuwan.

MaNu4Tres

05-24-2010, 10:05 PM

Glad you now understand what I meant, after being too lazy to actually read.

:tu

MaNu4Tres

05-24-2010, 10:20 PM

When did y'all ever see Ducan have the ability to do all of this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBrEsNS9zKg

Duncan is a alltime great, Olajuwon was just better, don't take insult to that...Olajuwon was a great player and we'll probably never witness a big man with so much all around skills again.

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kingmalaki

05-24-2010, 10:29 PM

In 04 the Spurs didn't show up to play in the last game after 0.4.

He didn't show up in game 3 and 4 either right?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200405090LAL.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200405110LAL.html

In 01 and 02 the Spurs had a weak ass team. Duncan had several monster games in losing efforts. He shot a poor % and had tons of turnovers. It was a case of a player being the focus of the other teams D and trying to do it all.

Kinda like Hakeem for say, most of his career.

In 05 Duncan had poor % shooting wise because Sheed was still a great defender. Big Ben and McDyess were were a better combo than Mason, Oak and Ewing. Tim won the ring with his rebounding and D. He also had 25 points in game 7. Grind it out series and the guy still had 25 points in game 7.

Being a great defender is now a valid excuse? He won the ring because of his efforts and the efforts of others, like Horry saving his ass.

These are all nice excuses. Fact is he was quite guardable in all of those series. And no way in hell are the Wallace boys a tougher cover than Ewing/Oakley/Mason. Let's not be too biased now.

But you are correct that his rebounding and defense was very good. But he was not some unguardable force during that span like Hakeem in 94/95. We are talking peaks here.

Tmac&Luther

05-24-2010, 10:31 PM

wekko368

05-24-2010, 10:33 PM

MaNu4Tres, are you serious?

I only watched a few minutes of those clips, but based on what I saw, Olajuwon makes Duncan look slow and clumsy.

MaNu4Tres

05-24-2010, 11:13 PM

:lol

Rocket fans saying Duncan wasn't as an all around player like Hakeem.

Some opinions proving Duncan's dominance and versatility(all around skill) from Non-biased Rocket fans:

"He is probably the best player to ever play the position the way he plays it," said Utah coach Jerry Sloan, who coached Jazz great Karl Malone.

"I think all around, there's never been a big forward quite like him," said Hall of Fame coach and analyst Jack Ramsay. "Bob Pettit was a great scorer and rebounder. Karl Malone was a more powerful player, but they didn't have the versatility Tim does. Kevin McHale was probably the best low-post, back-to-the-basket big forward, and he was a good defender, but he, too, couldn't do the things Duncan can do."

"He's pretty unique in how he plays," Pettit said. "He can play with his back to the basket or facing it. I spent 95%-97% of the time facing the basket. He's pretty versatile as a player. It also seems that he's stepped it up in the playoffs."

"In my 20 years in the NBA, Duncan is the best big to play the game," says former Houston Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy. " O'Neal always had the benefit of a dominant perimeter player, from [Penny] Hardaway to [Kobe] Bryant to [Dwyane] Wade. Duncan has had very good players, but he's never had that dominant player, so that's why I give him the edge."

Page 1: Simmons on Duncan

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070509

Quotes from Page 1: "Helplessly, we've watched him carry the Spurs to three titles, a number that could have been five if not for Derek Fisher's miracle shot in 2004 and Manu Ginobili's stupid foul of Dirk Nowitzki last season."

Page 2: Simmons on Duncan

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/blog/index?name=simmons&entryDate=20070514

Quotes from Page 2:

"For his entire prime, Duncan has been one of the top-three most untradeable players in the league.

You know why? Because he gives you a fantastic chance to win the championship every year, that's why. Maybe Karl Malone was better in '97 and '98, maybe Shaq exceeded him in '00 and '01, maybe KG matched him in '04 and Nowitzki matched him in '06 ... but overall, Duncan always seems to keep his teams in the hunt.

Here are San Antonio's numbers during his 10-year career: 559-239 during the regular season, 82-49 in the playoffs, three championships. Since the ABA/NBA merger, only four stars have been that consistently successful for a 10-year span: Bird, Magic, MJ and Shaq ... although I hesitate to put Shaq on that level because he's had six different teams get swept over the course of his career. But that's the list. Superstars like Kareem (nine playoff wins TOTAL in the four seasons before Magic arrived), David Robinson (never made a Finals before Duncan arrived), Hakeem Olajuwon (wildly unsuccessful for most of his prime), Patrick Ewing (played in only one Finals in his prime), Charles Barkley (ditto) and Karl Malone (played in four conference finals, never won a title) couldn't match Duncan's winning consistency over a 10-year period. "

Duncan's achievements: Bolded are the categories Duncan has over Olajuwon

# 4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
# 3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
# 2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
# NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
# 12× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2010)
# 9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
# All-NBA Third Team (2010)
# 8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
# 5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010)
# NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
# NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)(Only irrelevant award)

Hakeem Olajuwon's achievements:( Bolded are the categories he has over Duncan)
# 2× NBA Champion (1994, 1995)
# NBA MVP (1994)
# 12× All-Star (1985-1990, 1992-1997)
# 2× Finals MVP (1994-1995)
# 2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993-1994)
# 6× All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1989, 1993-1994, 1997)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986, 1990, 1996)
# 3× All-NBA Third Team Selection (1991, 1995, 1999)
# 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1987-1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
# 4× NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1985, 1991, 1996-1997)

:lol

It's also hilarious how Rocket fans point out how much Olajuwon was superior over Duncan on the defensive end, when Duncan has won 13 total NBA ALL Defensive Team(9 first team) to Olajuwon's 9 (5 first team) and Duncan still has at least 2 years left.

Tmac&Luther

05-24-2010, 11:18 PM

:lol at rocket fans saying Duncan wasn't as an all around player like Hakeem.

Some opinions proving Duncan's dominance and versatility(all around skill) from Non-biased Rocket fans:

"He is probably the best player to ever play the position the way he plays it," said Utah coach Jerry Sloan, who coached Jazz great Karl Malone.

"I think all around, there's never been a big forward quite like him," said Hall of Fame coach and analyst Jack Ramsay. "Bob Pettit was a great scorer and rebounder. Karl Malone was a more powerful player, but they didn't have the versatility Tim does. Kevin McHale was probably the best low-post, back-to-the-basket big forward, and he was a good defender, but he, too, couldn't do the things Duncan can do."

"He's pretty unique in how he plays," Pettit said. "He can play with his back to the basket or facing it. I spent 95%-97% of the time facing the basket. He's pretty versatile as a player. It also seems that he's stepped it up in the playoffs."

"In my 20 years in the NBA, Duncan is the best big to play the game," says former Houston Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy. " O'Neal always had the benefit of a dominant perimeter player, from [Penny] Hardaway to [Kobe] Bryant to [Dwyane] Wade. Duncan has had very good players, but he's never had that dominant player, so that's why I give him the edge."

Page 1: Simmons on Duncan

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070509

Quotes from Page 1: "Helplessly, we've watched him carry the Spurs to three titles, a number that could have been five if not for Derek Fisher's miracle shot in 2004 and Manu Ginobili's stupid foul of Dirk Nowitzki last season."

Page 2: Simmons on Duncan

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/blog/index?name=simmons&entryDate=20070514

Quotes from Page 2:

"For his entire prime, Duncan has been one of the top-three most untradeable players in the league.

You know why? Because he gives you a fantastic chance to win the championship every year, that's why. Maybe Karl Malone was better in '97 and '98, maybe Shaq exceeded him in '00 and '01, maybe KG matched him in '04 and Nowitzki matched him in '06 ... but overall, Duncan always seems to keep his teams in the hunt.

Here are San Antonio's numbers during his 10-year career: 559-239 during the regular season, 82-49 in the playoffs, three championships. Since the ABA/NBA merger, only four stars have been that consistently successful for a 10-year span: Bird, Magic, MJ and Shaq ... although I hesitate to put Shaq on that level because he's had six different teams get swept over the course of his career. But that's the list. Superstars like Kareem (nine playoff wins TOTAL in the four seasons before Magic arrived), David Robinson (never made a Finals before Duncan arrived), Hakeem Olajuwon (wildly unsuccessful for most of his prime), Patrick Ewing (played in only one Finals in his prime), Charles Barkley (ditto) and Karl Malone (played in four conference finals, never won a title) couldn't match Duncan's winning consistency over a 10-year period. "

Duncan's achievements: Bolded are the categories Duncan has over Olajuwon

# 4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
# 3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
# 2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
# NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
# 12× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2010)
# 9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
# All-NBA Third Team (2010)
# 8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
# 5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010)
# NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
# NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)(Only irrelevant award)

Hakeem Olajuwon's achievements:( Bolded are the categories he has over Duncan)
# 2× NBA Champion (1994, 1995)
# NBA MVP (1994)
# 12× All-Star (1985-1990, 1992-1997)
# 2× Finals MVP (1994-1995)
# 2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993-1994)
# 6× All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1989, 1993-1994, 1997)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986, 1990, 1996)
# 3× All-NBA Third Team Selection (1991, 1995, 1999)
# 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1987-1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
# 4× NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1985, 1991, 1996-1997)

:lol It's also hilarious how Rocket fans point out how much Olajuwon was superior over Duncan on the defensive end, when Duncan has won more first and second team All NBA Defensive awards than Olajuwon has.

:rollin

Too bad most of the awards were team oriented and credited towards the PF position during a much weaker big man era, but keep on smoking that tar.

P.S.

DUNCAN WAS NOT THE ALL AROUND TALENT THAT HAKEEM WAS....he just wasn't and isn't.

Tmac&Luther

05-24-2010, 11:23 PM

:lol Oh how I love how "spur fan" pimps awards and accolades when it's obvious Duncan played during a different era, while career stats say Hakeem was by far and away better on offense and defense :sleep 4 > 2 bitches :lmao

TD4THREE

05-24-2010, 11:26 PM

But you are correct that his rebounding and defense was very good. But he was not some unguardable force during that span like Hakeem in 94/95. We are talking peaks here.Yes we are, so why are you comparing one of Duncan's worst shooting series with Hakeem best season?

Tmac&Luther

05-24-2010, 11:28 PM

Yes we are, so why are you comparing one of Duncan's worst shooting series with Hakeem best season?

Honest question and I want a honest anwer...not this team accolade bullshit.

In what area of Duncan's game would he have a distinct or even any advantage over Olajuwon?

wekko368

05-24-2010, 11:33 PM

It's also hilarious how Rocket fans point out how much Olajuwon was superior over Duncan on the defensive end, when Duncan has won more first and second team All NBA Defensive awards than Olajuwon has.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the All-Defensive team picks 2 guards, 2 forwards, and center.

Olajuwon was always listed as a center so he had to compete against Robinson, Ewing, and Mutombo for the single center slot.

On the other hand, Duncan is listed as a forward and therefore competes for 1 out of 2 possible first team spots.

In other words, its much easier to make the first team listed as a forward as opposed to being listed as a center.

Tmac&Luther

05-24-2010, 11:35 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the All-Defensive team picks 2 guards, 2 forwards, and center.

Olajuwon was always listed as a center so he had to compete against Robinson, Ewing, and Mutombo for the single center slot.

On the other hand, Duncan is listed as a forward and therefore competes for 1 out of 2 possible first team spots.

In other words, its much easier to make the first team listed as a forward as opposed to being listed as a center.

Umm, don't let the truth get in the way of his ridiculous post. :lmao

Only a moron would thing that Duncan was a better defensive player than one of the best defensive players (and all time shot blocker) in league history. :rollin

TD4THREE

05-24-2010, 11:38 PM

:rollin

Too bad most of the awards were team oriented and credited towards the PF position during a much weaker big man era, but keep on smoking that tar.

P.S.
Actually Duncan was in one of the best eras for PFs ever, Duncan,Garnett,Webber,Wallace,Gasol, Nowitzki,Amare,, and several second tier guys like Brand,Bosh etc. So I don't see how those accolades are somehow tarnished due to position.

wekko368

05-24-2010, 11:39 PM

Umm, don't let the truth get in the way of his ridiculous post. :lmao

Only a moron would thing that Duncan was a better defensive player than one of the best defensive players (and all time shot blocker) in league history. :rollin

Let's not forget that he's the in the top 10 all-time in steals. But to be fair, who knows how many blocks KAJ would've totaled had they recorded blocks back then.

MaNu4Tres

05-24-2010, 11:40 PM

:rollin

Too bad most of the awards were team oriented .

:lol

Wow are you really that ignorant and stupid? (hate to be harsh)

The only award that is team oriented is the number of championships.

Everything else is an individual award that is based solely on the individuals play.

Which he clearly received more of.

credited towards the PF position during a much weaker big man era.

:lol

These are some of the power forwards Duncan has won awards over during the course of his career. (Over 6 Hall of famers at least and counting)

Kevin Garnett (whole career)HOF
Dirk Nowitzki (whole career)HOF
Karl Malone(1997/1998-2003/2004)HOF
Chris Webber (whole career)HOF
Rasheed Wallace (whole career)
Amare Stoudamire (2003-2010)HOF
Chris Bosh (2003-2010)
Carlos Boozer (2002-2010)
Al Jefferson (2004-2010)
Pau Gasol (2001-2010) HOF
Elton Brand (1999-2008)
David West (2003-2010)
Lamar Odom (1999-2010)

Tmac&Luther

05-24-2010, 11:41 PM

Actually Duncan was in one of the best eras for PFs ever, Duncan,Garnett,Webber,Wallace,Gasol, Nowitzki,Amare,, and several second tier guys like Brand,Bosh etc. So I don't see how those accolades are somehow tarnished due to position.

LMAO....Nowitzki played more like a oversized SF for alot of his career and was NEVER KNOWN FOR HIS DEFENSIVE ABILITY :lmao and Garnett is the only fucker that can Duncan can really say was competition throughout the length of his career.

Oh shit....how old are you....15? Where are the dominant defenders? Amare :lol Webber :lol Gasol :lmao:downspin: Seriously you need to learn about the late 80s and early 90s game.

Mr.Robinson

05-24-2010, 11:42 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the All-Defensive team picks 2 guards, 2 forwards, and center.

Olajuwon was always listed as a center so he had to compete against Robinson, Ewing, and Mutombo for the single center slot.

On the other hand, Duncan is listed as a forward and therefore competes for 1 out of 2 possible first team spots.

In other words, its much easier to make the first team listed as a forward as opposed to being listed as a center.
Tim Duncan is the greatest one on one defender of all time.

Tmac&Luther

05-24-2010, 11:43 PM

Tim Duncan is the greatest one on one defender of all time.

:lol :lmao :lol :lmao

Oh shit

:lmao :lmao :lmao

Duncan isn't even recognized as the best 1 on 1 defender in SA during his prime and championship years in SA. :lmao

TD4THREE

05-24-2010, 11:45 PM

Honest question and I want a honest anwer...not this team accolade bullshit.

In what area of Duncan's game would he have a distinct or even any advantage over Olajuwon?I think he's a superior passer, and I think you could also make a case that he's a better shooter. Other than that I couldn't really say that Duncan had another advantage in his game over Hakeem's.

wekko368

05-24-2010, 11:46 PM

Actually Duncan was in one of the best eras for PFs ever, Duncan,Garnett,Webber,Wallace,Gasol, Nowitzki,Amare,, and several second tier guys like Brand,Bosh etc. So I don't see how those accolades are somehow tarnished due to position.

Well, the accolade in question is the All-Defensive First team. Of those PF's you listed, only Garnett and Wallace are good defenders, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Ben Wallace was listed as a center.

So if the only good defensive power forwards in that era were Garnett and Duncan, then it's pretty easy for them both to make the defensive first team. And in case you're wondering, they both made the first team in 2000, 01, 02, 03, 05, and 08.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Duncan. He was a great defender. But I think Olajuwon's 5 first team selections as a C is more impressive than Duncan's 8 first team selections as a PF.

Tmac&Luther

05-24-2010, 11:49 PM

I think he's a superior passer, and I think you could also make a case that he's a better shooter. Other than that I couldn't really say that Duncan had another advantage in his game over Hakeem's.

Umm, stats say he's a better passer and THAT'S IT.

Better shooter.....NOPE. Hakeem was a MUCH better shooter and could get his shot off a hell of alot easier, hence all the post moves and angles where he could sink his jumper from...not to mention the better FT shooting.

wekko368

05-24-2010, 11:52 PM

I think he's a superior passer, and I think you could also make a case that he's a better shooter. Other than that I couldn't really say that Duncan had another advantage in his game over Hakeem's.

In regards to your "shooter" comment, Duncan is a career 68.7% ft shooter. Olajuwon was a career 71.2%. It wasn't much better, but it was better.

I'm not sure about the superior passing either. You may be right, but here's how I look at it. The 1995 Rockets gameplan was similar to this year's Magic. Throw the ball down to Olajuwon and surround him with shooters. If double teams come, he passes it out and someone will eventually get an open shot.

And since the Rockets won the title, it seems logical that Olajuwon had great passing skills. The only center who I can think of off the top of my head who clearly had superior passing skills was Sabonis.

MaNu4Tres

05-24-2010, 11:58 PM

Before you go on a Olajuwon's 5 First teams> Duncan's 9 First teams

I want you to realize Robinson, O'Neal, Dikembe and Mourning were not in the league when Olajuwon won his first two. His biggest competition in 87-88 was a 41 year old Jabbar and Ewing respectively. Huge difference to not include the defensive players Mutombo, Robinson, Mourning, O'Neal. IMO

Olajuwon's third was in 1989-1990, Robinson was a rookie and O'Neal, Mutombo and Mourning were still not in the league.

Olajuwon didn't get 1st team All NBA Defensive team again til 93 and 94 and lost it in 90/91, 91/92, 94/95, 95/96, 96/97...After 97 is irrelevant since he was then out of his prime.

Shastafarian

05-24-2010, 11:59 PM

I finally crunched those h2h stats against Robsinson.

From Robinson's rookie year in 89/90 to the end of Hakeem's prime as designated by rocketfan in 94/95

Robinson
47.4% FG
22 PPG
11.9 RPG
3.4 BPG

Hakeem
45% FG
24.9 PPG
12.4 RPG
3.7 BPG

Houston was 14-16 (46.7%) in those 6 seasons. But I agree, these stats don't mean anything.

TD4THREE

05-25-2010, 12:03 AM

Umm, stats say he's a better passer and THAT'S IT.Duncan averages 3.2 assists for his career, Hakeem 2.5, and Duncan's highest average for a single season is also higher than Hakeems.

wekko368

05-25-2010, 12:06 AM

Before you go on a Olajuwon's 5 First teams> Duncan's 9 First teams

I want you to realize Robinson, O'Neal, Dikembe and Mourning were not in the league win Olajuwon won his first two. His biggest competition in 87-88 was a 41 year old Jabbar and Ewing respectively. Huge difference to not include the defensive players Mutombo, Robinson, Mourning, O'Neal. IMO

Ever heard of a guy named Mark Eaton? 2 time defensive player of the year and 3 defensive first teams. I'd say that's pretty tough competition.

So for those few years before Robinson joined the league, Olajuwon competed against an aging Jabbar, Ewing, and Eaton for the single defensive first team center position.

That's still infinitely tougher than Duncan competing against Garnett for two defensive first team forward spots.

Tmac&Luther

05-25-2010, 12:12 AM

Duncan averages 3.2 assists for his career, Hakeem 2.5, and Duncan's highest average for a single season is also higher than Hakeems.

??? I already conceded that Duncan was historically a better passer and Olajuwon was better at everything else....what's the reason for your post?

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 12:16 AM

Ever heard of a guy named Mark Eaton? 2 time defensive player of the year and 3 defensive first teams. I'd say that's pretty tough competition.

That's still infinitely tougher than Duncan competing against Garnett for two defensive first team forward spots.

Infinitely tougher? Really Mark Eaton?

Just because there's 2 spots doesn't necessarily mean it's easier. There's twice as many candidates as SF and PF are available to be considered. It's still the same amount of players to choose from for each spot when you consider this.

Garnett, Pippen, Malone, Sheed, Bowen, Artest, Kirlenko( his first 5 years), P.J Brown in his prime were all better defensive players than Mark Eaton.IMO

wekko368

05-25-2010, 12:17 AM

I finally crunched those h2h stats against Robsinson.

...

Houston was 14-16 (46.7%) in those 6 seasons. But I agree, these stats don't mean anything.

Those stats do mean something, but not much. The 1995 WCF series makes a much more compelling argument.

You have two championship caliber teams led by their HOF centers going head to head in the playoffs at their absolute primes and in full health. There's nothing more definitive.

Your data simply has too many variables to be considered reliable. For instance, how good were those Rockets/Spurs teams? If the Rockets had a poor team, that meant that Olajuwon would have to shoulder the offensive load while the defense was geared to stop him. That would hurt his statistics. Same goes for Robinson.

Did any of those games occur while Olajuwon was fasting for Ramadan? That would make a difference. Were any of the key players on either team injured? That would make a difference too.

Additionally, your data focuses only on regular season games, and we all know that the playoffs are an entirely different animal. If we're talking about players in their primes, you need to factor in Olajuwon's ability step up in the playoffs and Robinson's inability to do the same.

TD4THREE

05-25-2010, 12:21 AM

??? I already conceded that Duncan was historically a better passer and Olajuwon was better at everything else....what's the reason for your post?Was a little confused by the nature of your post. Thought you were talking about hakeem.

Shastafarian

05-25-2010, 12:25 AM

Those stats do mean something, but not much. The 1995 WCF series makes a much more compelling argument. Disagree. No doubt playoffs are more important in certain areas but they're such a small sample size (in this case only 6 games) I have a hard time putting the weight at anything over 60/40.

You have two championship caliber teams led by their HOF centers going head to head in the playoffs at their absolute primes and in full health. There's nothing more definitive. Yeah there is. If there had been more than 6 games. Hence me looking at the regular season. Plus you guys are arguing that Hakeem was unstoppable. Doesn't seem so from his regular season stats. Puts a bit of a kink in your argument.

Your data simply has too many variables to be considered reliable. That's the beauty of statistics and sample size.

For instance, how good were those Rockets/Spurs teams? If the Rockets had a poor team, that meant that Olajuwon would have to shoulder the offensive load while the defense was geared to stop him. That would hurt his statistics. Same goes for Robinson. They were pretty equal but the Rockets had an infinitely better coach.

Did any of those games occur while Olajuwon was fasting for Ramadan? Are you for real?

That would make a difference. Were any of the key players on either team injured? That would make a difference too. Sample. Size.

Additionally, your data focuses only on regular season games, and we all know that the playoffs are an entirely different animal. If we're talking about players in their primes, you need to factor in Olajuwon's ability step up in the playoffs and Robinson's inability to do the same.
And that's an aspect of our discussion. His mediocrity in the regular season is a knock against him.

wekko368

05-25-2010, 12:30 AM

Infinitely tougher? Really Mark Eaton?

I listed Eaton's credentials. There's only a handful of players that have better defensive accolades. So yeah, really Mark Eaton.

And yes, infinitely tougher. Since Duncan and Garnett were clearly the best defensive forwards and there were 2 first team forward slots, it was easy for them both to make it.

Just because there's 2 spots doesn't necessarily mean it's easier. There's twice as many candidates as SF and PF are available to be considered.

There may be more candidates, but SFs are generally irrelevant. Defensive accolades generally go to big men since they anchor the defense and protect the rim. How many SFs do you know perform those functions?

Garnett, Pippen, Malone, Sheed, Bowen, Artest, Kirlenko( his first 5 years), P.J Brown in his prime were all better defensive players than Mark Eaton.IMO

100% wrong.

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 12:34 AM

I listed Eaton's credentials. There's only a handful of players that have better defensive accolades. So yeah, really Mark Eaton.

And yes, infinitely tougher. Since Duncan and Garnett were clearly the best defensive forwards and there were 2 first team forward slots, it was easy for them both to make it.

There may be more candidates, but SFs are generally irrelevant. Defensive accolades generally go to big men since they anchor the defense and protect the rim. How many SFs do you know perform those functions?

100% wrong.

Mark Eaton won those awards due to the lack of quality of centers at the time.

And you and all your Rocket's subjective viewpoints are 100% wrong.

The proof is in the pudding my man.

:lol

Rocket fans saying Duncan wasn't as an all around player like Hakeem.

Some opinions proving Duncan's dominance and versatility(all around skill) from Non-biased Rocket fans:

"He is probably the best player to ever play the position the way he plays it," said Utah coach Jerry Sloan, who coached Jazz great Karl Malone.

"I think all around, there's never been a big forward quite like him," said Hall of Fame coach and analyst Jack Ramsay. "Bob Pettit was a great scorer and rebounder. Karl Malone was a more powerful player, but they didn't have the versatility Tim does. Kevin McHale was probably the best low-post, back-to-the-basket big forward, and he was a good defender, but he, too, couldn't do the things Duncan can do."

"He's pretty unique in how he plays," Pettit said. "He can play with his back to the basket or facing it. I spent 95%-97% of the time facing the basket. He's pretty versatile as a player. It also seems that he's stepped it up in the playoffs."

"In my 20 years in the NBA, Duncan is the best big to play the game," says former Houston Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy. " O'Neal always had the benefit of a dominant perimeter player, from [Penny] Hardaway to [Kobe] Bryant to [Dwyane] Wade. Duncan has had very good players, but he's never had that dominant player, so that's why I give him the edge."

Page 1: Simmons on Duncan

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070509

Quotes from Page 1: "Helplessly, we've watched him carry the Spurs to three titles, a number that could have been five if not for Derek Fisher's miracle shot in 2004 and Manu Ginobili's stupid foul of Dirk Nowitzki last season."

Page 2: Simmons on Duncan

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/blog/index?name=simmons&entryDate=20070514

Quotes from Page 2:

"For his entire prime, Duncan has been one of the top-three most untradeable players in the league.

You know why? Because he gives you a fantastic chance to win the championship every year, that's why. Maybe Karl Malone was better in '97 and '98, maybe Shaq exceeded him in '00 and '01, maybe KG matched him in '04 and Nowitzki matched him in '06 ... but overall, Duncan always seems to keep his teams in the hunt.

Here are San Antonio's numbers during his 10-year career: 559-239 during the regular season, 82-49 in the playoffs, three championships. Since the ABA/NBA merger, only four stars have been that consistently successful for a 10-year span: Bird, Magic, MJ and Shaq ... although I hesitate to put Shaq on that level because he's had six different teams get swept over the course of his career. But that's the list. Superstars like Kareem (nine playoff wins TOTAL in the four seasons before Magic arrived), David Robinson (never made a Finals before Duncan arrived), Hakeem Olajuwon (wildly unsuccessful for most of his prime), Patrick Ewing (played in only one Finals in his prime), Charles Barkley (ditto) and Karl Malone (played in four conference finals, never won a title) couldn't match Duncan's winning consistency over a 10-year period. "

Duncan's achievements: Bolded are the categories Duncan has over Olajuwon

# 4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
# 3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
# 2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
# NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
# 12× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2010)
# 9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
# All-NBA Third Team (2010)
# 8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
# 5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010)
# NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
# NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)(Only irrelevant award)

Hakeem Olajuwon's achievements:( Bolded are the categories he has over Duncan)
# 2× NBA Champion (1994, 1995)
# NBA MVP (1994)
# 12× All-Star (1985-1990, 1992-1997)
# 2× Finals MVP (1994-1995)
# 2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993-1994)
# 6× All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1989, 1993-1994, 1997)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986, 1990, 1996)
# 3× All-NBA Third Team Selection (1991, 1995, 1999)
# 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1987-1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
# 4× NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1985, 1991, 1996-1997)

:lol

It's also hilarious how Rocket fans point out how much Olajuwon was superior over Duncan on the defensive end, when Duncan has won 13 total NBA ALL Defensive Team(9 first team) to Olajuwon's 9 (5 first team) and Duncan still has at least 2 years left.

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 12:37 AM

Just in case you have problems reading and comprehending let me show you again:

:lol

Rocket fans saying Duncan wasn't as an all around player like Hakeem.

Some opinions proving Duncan's dominance and versatility(all around skill) from Non-biased Rocket fans:

"He is probably the best player to ever play the position the way he plays it," said Utah coach Jerry Sloan, who coached Jazz great Karl Malone.

"I think all around, there's never been a big forward quite like him," said Hall of Fame coach and analyst Jack Ramsay. "Bob Pettit was a great scorer and rebounder. Karl Malone was a more powerful player, but they didn't have the versatility Tim does. Kevin McHale was probably the best low-post, back-to-the-basket big forward, and he was a good defender, but he, too, couldn't do the things Duncan can do."

"He's pretty unique in how he plays," Pettit said. "He can play with his back to the basket or facing it. I spent 95%-97% of the time facing the basket. He's pretty versatile as a player. It also seems that he's stepped it up in the playoffs."

"In my 20 years in the NBA, Duncan is the best big to play the game," says former Houston Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy. " O'Neal always had the benefit of a dominant perimeter player, from [Penny] Hardaway to [Kobe] Bryant to [Dwyane] Wade. Duncan has had very good players, but he's never had that dominant player, so that's why I give him the edge."

Page 1: Simmons on Duncan

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070509

Quotes from Page 1: "Helplessly, we've watched him carry the Spurs to three titles, a number that could have been five if not for Derek Fisher's miracle shot in 2004 and Manu Ginobili's stupid foul of Dirk Nowitzki last season."

Page 2: Simmons on Duncan

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/blog/index?name=simmons&entryDate=20070514

Quotes from Page 2:

"For his entire prime, Duncan has been one of the top-three most untradeable players in the league.

You know why? Because he gives you a fantastic chance to win the championship every year, that's why. Maybe Karl Malone was better in '97 and '98, maybe Shaq exceeded him in '00 and '01, maybe KG matched him in '04 and Nowitzki matched him in '06 ... but overall, Duncan always seems to keep his teams in the hunt.

Here are San Antonio's numbers during his 10-year career: 559-239 during the regular season, 82-49 in the playoffs, three championships. Since the ABA/NBA merger, only four stars have been that consistently successful for a 10-year span: Bird, Magic, MJ and Shaq ... although I hesitate to put Shaq on that level because he's had six different teams get swept over the course of his career. But that's the list. Superstars like Kareem (nine playoff wins TOTAL in the four seasons before Magic arrived), David Robinson (never made a Finals before Duncan arrived), Hakeem Olajuwon (wildly unsuccessful for most of his prime), Patrick Ewing (played in only one Finals in his prime), Charles Barkley (ditto) and Karl Malone (played in four conference finals, never won a title) couldn't match Duncan's winning consistency over a 10-year period. "

Duncan's achievements: Bolded are the categories Duncan has over Olajuwon

# 4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
# 3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
# 2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
# NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
# 12× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2010)
# 9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
# All-NBA Third Team (2010)
# 8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
# 5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010)
# NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
# NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)(Only irrelevant award)

Hakeem Olajuwon's achievements:( Bolded are the categories he has over Duncan)
# 2× NBA Champion (1994, 1995)
# NBA MVP (1994)
# 12× All-Star (1985-1990, 1992-1997)
# 2× Finals MVP (1994-1995)
# 2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993-1994)
# 6× All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1989, 1993-1994, 1997)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986, 1990, 1996)
# 3× All-NBA Third Team Selection (1991, 1995, 1999)
# 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1987-1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
# 4× NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1985, 1991, 1996-1997)

:lol

It's also hilarious how Rocket fans point out how much Olajuwon was superior over Duncan on the defensive end, when Duncan has won 13 total NBA ALL Defensive Team(9 first team) to Olajuwon's 9 (5 first team) and Duncan still has at least 2 years left.

wekko368

05-25-2010, 12:38 AM

Sample. Size.

Nothing is more relevant than a playoff series. Each team has time to analyze weaknesses and make adjustments to fully prepare for each other. That's the point of the playoffs...to determine the best team.

Your sample might be relevant if the team with the most regular season wins were annointed champion.

And that's an aspect of our discussion. His mediocrity in the regular season is a knock against him.

Olajuwon was not a mediocre regular season player. Look at his numbers. They're similar to Robinson's. But in the playoffs, Olajuwon steps his game up. Robinson doesn't.

Shastafarian

05-25-2010, 12:38 AM

Hakeem would wipe his ass with Duncan more than he did Robinson.

Take it from this guy. He would know being a Pakistani and all. They gotta be proficient at wiping ass because if they're not careful all the TP gets stuck in the forest of hair.

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 12:38 AM

Read it and weep it mucca's:

:lol

Rocket fans saying Duncan wasn't as an all around player like Hakeem.

Some opinions proving Duncan's dominance and versatility(all around skill) from Non-biased Rocket fans:

"He is probably the best player to ever play the position the way he plays it," said Utah coach Jerry Sloan, who coached Jazz great Karl Malone.

"I think all around, there's never been a big forward quite like him," said Hall of Fame coach and analyst Jack Ramsay. "Bob Pettit was a great scorer and rebounder. Karl Malone was a more powerful player, but they didn't have the versatility Tim does. Kevin McHale was probably the best low-post, back-to-the-basket big forward, and he was a good defender, but he, too, couldn't do the things Duncan can do."

"He's pretty unique in how he plays," Pettit said. "He can play with his back to the basket or facing it. I spent 95%-97% of the time facing the basket. He's pretty versatile as a player. It also seems that he's stepped it up in the playoffs."

"In my 20 years in the NBA, Duncan is the best big to play the game," says former Houston Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy. " O'Neal always had the benefit of a dominant perimeter player, from [Penny] Hardaway to [Kobe] Bryant to [Dwyane] Wade. Duncan has had very good players, but he's never had that dominant player, so that's why I give him the edge."

Page 1: Simmons on Duncan

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070509

Quotes from Page 1: "Helplessly, we've watched him carry the Spurs to three titles, a number that could have been five if not for Derek Fisher's miracle shot in 2004 and Manu Ginobili's stupid foul of Dirk Nowitzki last season."

Page 2: Simmons on Duncan

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/blog/index?name=simmons&entryDate=20070514

Quotes from Page 2:

"For his entire prime, Duncan has been one of the top-three most untradeable players in the league.

You know why? Because he gives you a fantastic chance to win the championship every year, that's why. Maybe Karl Malone was better in '97 and '98, maybe Shaq exceeded him in '00 and '01, maybe KG matched him in '04 and Nowitzki matched him in '06 ... but overall, Duncan always seems to keep his teams in the hunt.

Here are San Antonio's numbers during his 10-year career: 559-239 during the regular season, 82-49 in the playoffs, three championships. Since the ABA/NBA merger, only four stars have been that consistently successful for a 10-year span: Bird, Magic, MJ and Shaq ... although I hesitate to put Shaq on that level because he's had six different teams get swept over the course of his career. But that's the list. Superstars like Kareem (nine playoff wins TOTAL in the four seasons before Magic arrived), David Robinson (never made a Finals before Duncan arrived), Hakeem Olajuwon (wildly unsuccessful for most of his prime), Patrick Ewing (played in only one Finals in his prime), Charles Barkley (ditto) and Karl Malone (played in four conference finals, never won a title) couldn't match Duncan's winning consistency over a 10-year period. "

Duncan's achievements: Bolded are the categories Duncan has over Olajuwon

# 4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
# 3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
# 2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
# NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
# 12× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2010)
# 9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
# All-NBA Third Team (2010)
# 8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
# 5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010)
# NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
# NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)(Only irrelevant award)

Hakeem Olajuwon's achievements:( Bolded are the categories he has over Duncan)
# 2× NBA Champion (1994, 1995)
# NBA MVP (1994)
# 12× All-Star (1985-1990, 1992-1997)
# 2× Finals MVP (1994-1995)
# 2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993-1994)
# 6× All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1989, 1993-1994, 1997)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986, 1990, 1996)
# 3× All-NBA Third Team Selection (1991, 1995, 1999)
# 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1987-1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
# 4× NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1985, 1991, 1996-1997)

:lol

It's also hilarious how Rocket fans point out how much Olajuwon was superior over Duncan on the defensive end, when Duncan has won 13 total NBA ALL Defensive Team(9 first team) to Olajuwon's 9 (5 first team) and Duncan still has at least 2 years left.

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 12:39 AM

3rd times a charm lads:

:lol

Rocket fans saying Duncan wasn't as an all around player like Hakeem.

Some opinions proving Duncan's dominance and versatility(all around skill) from Non-biased Rocket fans:

"He is probably the best player to ever play the position the way he plays it," said Utah coach Jerry Sloan, who coached Jazz great Karl Malone.

"I think all around, there's never been a big forward quite like him," said Hall of Fame coach and analyst Jack Ramsay. "Bob Pettit was a great scorer and rebounder. Karl Malone was a more powerful player, but they didn't have the versatility Tim does. Kevin McHale was probably the best low-post, back-to-the-basket big forward, and he was a good defender, but he, too, couldn't do the things Duncan can do."

"He's pretty unique in how he plays," Pettit said. "He can play with his back to the basket or facing it. I spent 95%-97% of the time facing the basket. He's pretty versatile as a player. It also seems that he's stepped it up in the playoffs."

"In my 20 years in the NBA, Duncan is the best big to play the game," says former Houston Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy. " O'Neal always had the benefit of a dominant perimeter player, from [Penny] Hardaway to [Kobe] Bryant to [Dwyane] Wade. Duncan has had very good players, but he's never had that dominant player, so that's why I give him the edge."

Page 1: Simmons on Duncan

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070509

Quotes from Page 1: "Helplessly, we've watched him carry the Spurs to three titles, a number that could have been five if not for Derek Fisher's miracle shot in 2004 and Manu Ginobili's stupid foul of Dirk Nowitzki last season."

Page 2: Simmons on Duncan

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/blog/index?name=simmons&entryDate=20070514

Quotes from Page 2:

"For his entire prime, Duncan has been one of the top-three most untradeable players in the league.

You know why? Because he gives you a fantastic chance to win the championship every year, that's why. Maybe Karl Malone was better in '97 and '98, maybe Shaq exceeded him in '00 and '01, maybe KG matched him in '04 and Nowitzki matched him in '06 ... but overall, Duncan always seems to keep his teams in the hunt.

Here are San Antonio's numbers during his 10-year career: 559-239 during the regular season, 82-49 in the playoffs, three championships. Since the ABA/NBA merger, only four stars have been that consistently successful for a 10-year span: Bird, Magic, MJ and Shaq ... although I hesitate to put Shaq on that level because he's had six different teams get swept over the course of his career. But that's the list. Superstars like Kareem (nine playoff wins TOTAL in the four seasons before Magic arrived), David Robinson (never made a Finals before Duncan arrived), Hakeem Olajuwon (wildly unsuccessful for most of his prime), Patrick Ewing (played in only one Finals in his prime), Charles Barkley (ditto) and Karl Malone (played in four conference finals, never won a title) couldn't match Duncan's winning consistency over a 10-year period. "

Duncan's achievements: Bolded are the categories Duncan has over Olajuwon

# 4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
# 3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
# 2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
# NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
# 12× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2010)
# 9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
# All-NBA Third Team (2010)
# 8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
# 5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010)
# NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
# NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)(Only irrelevant award)

Hakeem Olajuwon's achievements:( Bolded are the categories he has over Duncan)
# 2× NBA Champion (1994, 1995)
# NBA MVP (1994)
# 12× All-Star (1985-1990, 1992-1997)
# 2× Finals MVP (1994-1995)
# 2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993-1994)
# 6× All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1989, 1993-1994, 1997)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986, 1990, 1996)
# 3× All-NBA Third Team Selection (1991, 1995, 1999)
# 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1987-1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
# 4× NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1985, 1991, 1996-1997)

:lol

It's also hilarious how Rocket fans point out how much Olajuwon was superior over Duncan on the defensive end, when Duncan has won 13 total NBA ALL Defensive Team(9 first team) to Olajuwon's 9 (5 first team) and Duncan still has at least 2 years left.

Shastafarian

05-25-2010, 12:41 AM

Nothing is more relevant than a playoff series. As a single entity maybe. Keep ignoring the regular season. We'll each do what we can to cater to our own arguments.

Each team has time to analyze weaknesses and make adjustments to fully prepare for each other. That's the point of the playoffs...to determine the best team.Is it also to determine the best player? Why do they base the MVP off of regular season?

Your sample might be relevant if the team with the most regular season wins were annointed champion.So it's irrelevant. Gotcha. Regular season doesn't matter.

Olajuwon was not a mediocre regular season player.His FG% against Robinson sure was.

Look at his numbers. They're similar to Robinson's. But in the playoffs, Olajuwon steps his game up. Robinson doesn't.
And that's why he was better than Robinson, which I've already said a few times. Unfortunately that's not what we're arguing.

wekko368

05-25-2010, 12:43 AM

Mark Eaton won those awards due to the lack of quality of centers at the time.

The same can be said for Duncan and his defensive accolades. During Duncan's era, there were two great defensive PF's (Duncan/Garnett) and two first team defensive forward slots. You do the math.

And you and all your Rocket's subjective viewpoints are 100% wrong.

The proof is in the pudding my man .

If they're wrong, why don't you disprove them?

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 12:43 AM

If they're wrong, why don't you disprove them?

Okay maybe the fluctuation in the bold lettering was hard to read.
*Edited and fixed*

:lol

Rocket fans saying Duncan wasn't as an all around player like Hakeem.

Some opinions proving Duncan's dominance and versatility(all around skill) from Non-biased Rocket fans:

"He is probably the best player to ever play the position the way he plays it," said Utah coach Jerry Sloan, who coached Jazz great Karl Malone.

"I think all around, there's never been a big forward quite like him," said Hall of Fame coach and analyst Jack Ramsay. "Bob Pettit was a great scorer and rebounder. Karl Malone was a more powerful player, but they didn't have the versatility Tim does. Kevin McHale was probably the best low-post, back-to-the-basket big forward, and he was a good defender, but he, too, couldn't do the things Duncan can do."

"He's pretty unique in how he plays," Pettit said. "He can play with his back to the basket or facing it. I spent 95%-97% of the time facing the basket. He's pretty versatile as a player. It also seems that he's stepped it up in the playoffs."

"In my 20 years in the NBA, Duncan is the best big to play the game," says former Houston Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy. " O'Neal always had the benefit of a dominant perimeter player, from [Penny] Hardaway to [Kobe] Bryant to [Dwyane] Wade. Duncan has had very good players, but he's never had that dominant player, so that's why I give him the edge."

Page 1: Simmons on Duncan

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070509

Quotes from Page 1: "Helplessly, we've watched him carry the Spurs to three titles, a number that could have been five if not for Derek Fisher's miracle shot in 2004 and Manu Ginobili's stupid foul of Dirk Nowitzki last season."

Page 2: Simmons on Duncan

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/blog/index?name=simmons&entryDate=20070514

Quotes from Page 2:

"For his entire prime, Duncan has been one of the top-three most untradeable players in the league.

You know why? Because he gives you a fantastic chance to win the championship every year, that's why. Maybe Karl Malone was better in '97 and '98, maybe Shaq exceeded him in '00 and '01, maybe KG matched him in '04 and Nowitzki matched him in '06 ... but overall, Duncan always seems to keep his teams in the hunt.

Here are San Antonio's numbers during his 10-year career: 559-239 during the regular season, 82-49 in the playoffs, three championships. Since the ABA/NBA merger, only four stars have been that consistently successful for a 10-year span: Bird, Magic, MJ and Shaq ... although I hesitate to put Shaq on that level because he's had six different teams get swept over the course of his career. But that's the list. Superstars like Kareem (nine playoff wins TOTAL in the four seasons before Magic arrived), David Robinson (never made a Finals before Duncan arrived), Hakeem Olajuwon (wildly unsuccessful for most of his prime), Patrick Ewing (played in only one Finals in his prime), Charles Barkley (ditto) and Karl Malone (played in four conference finals, never won a title) couldn't match Duncan's winning consistency over a 10-year period.

Duncan's achievements: Bolded are the categories Duncan has over Olajuwon

# 4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
# 3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
# 2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
# NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
# 12× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2010)
# 9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
# All-NBA Third Team (2010)
# 8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
# 5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010)
# NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
# NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)(Only irrelevant award)

Hakeem Olajuwon's achievements:( Bolded are the categories he has over Duncan)
# 2× NBA Champion (1994, 1995)
# NBA MVP (1994)
# 12× All-Star (1985-1990, 1992-1997)
# 2× Finals MVP (1994-1995)
# 2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993-1994)
# 6× All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1989, 1993-1994, 1997)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986, 1990, 1996)
# 3× All-NBA Third Team Selection (1991, 1995, 1999)
# 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1987-1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
# 4× NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1985, 1991, 1996-1997)

:lol

It's also hilarious how Rocket fans point out how much Olajuwon was superior over Duncan on the defensive end, when Duncan has won 13 total NBA ALL Defensive Team(9 first team) to Olajuwon's 9 (5 first team) and Duncan still has at least 2 years left.

wekko368

05-25-2010, 12:50 AM

As a single entity maybe. Keep ignoring the regular season. We'll each do what we can to cater to our own arguments.

I'm not ignoring the regular season. But I recognize that it's simply not as important as the postseason.

Is it also to determine the best player? Why do they base the MVP off of regular season?

Are you serious? The MVP is based off the regular season b/c it's a regular season award. It doesn't account for playoff performances.

So it's irrelevant. Gotcha. Regular season doesn't matter.

Regular season is incomplete. Don't you think its important to factor in how a player performs under postseason pressure?

Luther Head was a solid regular season player, yet in his last playoff series with the Rockets, he had a negative PER.

And that's why he was better than Robinson, which I've already said a few times. Unfortunately that's not what we're arguing.

What exactly is it that you're arguing?

wekko368

05-25-2010, 12:53 AM

Okay maybe the fluctuation in the bold lettering was hard to read.
*Edited and fixed*

Looks like those quotes are referring to PF's (which precludes Olajuwon) and a specific comparison to between Duncan/Shaq.

And I've already addressed the All-NBA selections. Its easier to get those awards when you have twice as many chances to get it.

Shastafarian

05-25-2010, 12:54 AM

I'm not ignoring the regular season. But I recognize that it's simply not as important as the postseason. Maybe not. But you're devaluing it to suit your argument.

Are you serious? The MVP is based off the regular season b/c it's a regular season award. It doesn't account for playoff performances.Yes I know. My question was why have it as a regular season award if the playoffs matter so much?

Regular season is incomplete. Don't you think its important to factor in how a player performs under postseason pressure?Sure

Luther Head was a solid regular season player, yet in his last playoff series with the Rockets, he had a negative PER. And you lost me here. Luther Head sucks always and forever.

What exactly is it that you're arguing?
That Hakeem had some outstanding performances in the playoffs but people are using those to overrate him.

wekko368

05-25-2010, 01:02 AM

Maybe not. But you're devaluing it to suit your argument.

I devalue regular season accomplishments b/c it's not as valuable as postseason accomplishments.

Yes I know. My question was why have it as a regular season award if the playoffs matter so much?

It's an award to celebrate the most valuable player in the regular season.
But is has nothing to do with the postseason which is more important than the regular season when determining a player's greatness.

And you lost me here. Luther Head sucks always and forever.

Before Luther Head went MIA in the playoffs, he was a serviceable role player.

That Hakeem had some outstanding performances in the playoffs but people are using those to overrate him.

Outstanding playoff performances warrant his rating.

Mr.Robinson

05-25-2010, 01:15 AM

Umm, don't let the truth get in the way of his ridiculous post. :lmao

Only a moron would thing that Duncan was a better defensive player than one of the best defensive players (and all time shot blocker) in league history. :rollin

Tim Duncan never went for fakes the way Hakeem did. Put Tim in the 80 to mid 90's and he gets 4 blocks a game as well. Tree Rollins averaged 4 blocks a game. Different styles and different eras. Are you going to tell me Tree is also a better defender? Hakeem was a great weak side shot blocker. I just don't think he was as good a defender as Tim in one on one situations and as a team defender. 4 rings says a lot as well. Not to mention DPOY awards.

wekko368

05-25-2010, 01:20 AM

I just don't think he was as good a defender as Tim in one on one situations and as a team defender. 4 rings says a lot as well. Not to mention DPOY awards.

Only in San Antonio will you find people who think Duncan is a better defender than Olajuwon.

FWIW, Olajuwon's 2 DPOY awards trump Duncan's 0.

And in terms of defense, being the all-time leader in blocks and top 10 in steals is more impressive than 4 rings.

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 01:24 AM

"In my 20 years in the NBA, Duncan is the best big to play the game," says former Houston Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy. " O'Neal always had the benefit of a dominant perimeter player, from [Penny] Hardaway to [Kobe] Bryant to [Dwyane] Wade. Duncan has had very good players, but he's never had that dominant player, so that's why I give him the edge."

"Since the ABA/NBA merger, only four stars have been that consistently successful for a 10-year span: Bird, Magic, MJ and Shaq ... although I hesitate to put Shaq on that level because he's had six different teams get swept over the course of his career. But that's the list. Superstars like Kareem (nine playoff wins TOTAL in the four seasons before Magic arrived), David Robinson (never made a Finals before Duncan arrived), Hakeem Olajuwon (wildly unsuccessful for most of his prime), Patrick Ewing (played in only one Finals in his prime), Charles Barkley (ditto) and Karl Malone (played in four conference finals, never won a title) couldn't match Duncan's winning consistency over a 10-year period. " - Bill Simmons

wekko368

05-25-2010, 01:34 AM

"In my 20 years in the NBA, Duncan is the best big to play the game," says former Houston Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy. " O'Neal always had the benefit of a dominant perimeter player, from [Penny] Hardaway to [Kobe] Bryant to [Dwyane] Wade. Duncan has had very good players, but he's never had that dominant player, so that's why I give him the edge."

He's making the comparison between Duncan and Shaq.

In 2005, Jordan said that if he had to construct a team, he'd pick Bird as PF and Olajuwon as Center.

"Since the ABA/NBA merger, only four stars have been that consistently successful for a 10-year span: Bird, Magic, MJ and Shaq ... although I hesitate to put Shaq on that level because he's had six different teams get swept over the course of his career. But that's the list. Superstars like Kareem (nine playoff wins TOTAL in the four seasons before Magic arrived), David Robinson (never made a Finals before Duncan arrived), Hakeem Olajuwon (wildly unsuccessful for most of his prime), Patrick Ewing (played in only one Finals in his prime), Charles Barkley (ditto) and Karl Malone (played in four conference finals, never won a title) couldn't match Duncan's winning consistency over a 10-year period. " - Bill Simmons

When you talk about winning consistency, you're referring to caliber of team, not individual player.

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 01:38 AM

He's making the comparison between Duncan and Shaq.

What part of "In my 20 years in the NBA, Duncan is the best big to play the game," don't you understand?

He was just implying Shaq and Duncan were the best two big men in the past 20 years and he'd give Duncan the nod over Shaq.

In all honesty I'd take Shaq's prime 1998-2003 over Hakeem's prime too. But that's a totally different argument.

When you talk about winning consistency, you're referring to caliber of team, not individual player.

He was referring to the superstars ability to carry a team since the ABA/NBA merger.

*Hence the names he named, not the teams*

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 01:48 AM

Anyway that was fun for me to dig and relive the greatness of the best power forward to ever play the game.

Fact is all of these posts are all opinions, some are valid, some are not.

What we do know is that Duncan and Olajuwon both are in the top 5-7 ALL-Time big men to ever play the game.

It's arguable anyway you look at it.

Rockets fans will choose their beloved Olajuwon and Spurs fans of course will take Duncan's side.

Both were two of the greatest to ever lace them up. Pretty sure we can agree with that.

wekko368

05-25-2010, 01:50 AM

What part of "In my 20 years in the NBA, Duncan is the best big to play the game," don't you understand?

He was just implying Shaq and Duncan were the best two big men in the past 20 years and he'd give Duncan the nod over Shaq.

That's an illogical inference.

Let me illustrate. In 2005, when Jordan said he'd pick Bird as the PF of his team, the other PF's he named were Worthy, Malone, Barkley, and Oakley. Does that mean he doesn't consider Duncan an all-time great as of Sept 2005? Absolutely not.

You also dont know whether or not JVG is limiting his selections to players whose entire careers were encompassed from 1990-2010.

He was referring to the superstars ability to carry a team since the ABA/NBA merger.

*Hence the names he named, not the teams*

When you talk about winning consistency, you're referring to team winning consistency which leads to debates about supporting casts.

wekko368

05-25-2010, 01:51 AM

Rockets fans will choose their beloved Olajuwon and Spurs fans of course will take Duncan's side.

No Rockets fan will take Duncan whereas some older Spurs fans will take Olajuwon.

What does that tell you?

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 01:53 AM

No Rockets fan will take Duncan whereas some older Spurs fans will take Olajuwon.

What does that tell you?

If that's the case, that tells me I don't agree with their opinion.

There's no proven facts out there as evidence to illustrate which player is the better player, besides career achievements and individual accolades which Duncan has the upper hand.

If people want to use any other references it will be tied back to an opinion, not a fact.

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 02:12 AM

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 02:22 AM

/\/\

As a matter of fact in their first 13 years in the league Olajuwon played 1,256 more minutes than Duncan total, which for example equated to 2,605 more shot attempts for Olajuwon during this span.

DesignatedT

05-25-2010, 02:23 AM

Duncan>>>>>>>>Olajuwon.

C'mon now. Stick to Olajuwon over Robinson. You can have that one but by no means was Hakeem a better player than Tim Duncan. no fucking way.

wekko368

05-25-2010, 02:28 AM

And you brought the only valid argument out of all the Rocket trolls, in regards of how Olajuwon won 2 of his ALL NBA Defensive First team in a very competitive field with Robinson, Mutombo, Ewing and Mourning. And how there's only one spot available for first team.

I'll give you that and because of that I'll credit Olajuwons second teams as first teams as well. Which would give him 9 total. Which is still equal to the amount of first team's Duncan received (9).

Very well, but that still doesn't address the glaring discrepancy in competition. Aside from Garnett, there were no consistently dominant defensive forwards. Sure, Kirilenko had a few good years. So did Artest. But they disappeared from the limelight as quickly as they came.

So I still find Olajuwon's 9 first/second team placements to be a greater accomplishment than Duncan's b/c Olajuwon had to do it against far greater competition.

And if you want to point to all-time career totals (in blocks, rebounds, points what have you). That isn't as valid due to how big of a part the Spurs have used their bench during the Duncan era. Limiting his minutes, consequently limiting his totals and averages in many categories. ( Duncan played a lot less minutes than Hakeem in a 13 year span.)

So divide career totals by minutes played.

By that method, Duncan averaged 0.06 blocks per minute. Olajuwon averaged 0.09. That's 50% more in favor of Olajuwon.

For steals, Duncan averaged 0.02 per minute. Olajuwon averaged 0.05. That 150% more in favor of Olajuwon.

For rebounds, Duncan averaged 0.32 per minute. Olajuwon averaged 0.31. So they're about the same (Duncan has a slight edge).

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 02:38 AM

So divide career totals by minutes played.

By that method, Duncan averaged 0.06 blocks per minute. Olajuwon averaged 0.09. That's 50% more in favor of Olajuwon.

For steals, Duncan averaged 0.02 per minute. Olajuwon averaged 0.05. That 150% more in favor of Olajuwon.

For rebounds, Duncan averaged 0.32 per minute. Olajuwon averaged 0.31. So they're about the same (Duncan has a slight edge).

Steals is a pretty irrelevant stat in regards of a big man's responsibilities.

I'll give you blocks, but you can't tell me Olajuwon was the better big man and base that solely on the steals advantage. :lol

Besides Duncan has Olajuwon on MVP's, Final MVP's (both individual awards) and championships (4). (The most important categories to rank a player.)

wekko368

05-25-2010, 02:49 AM

Steals is a pretty irrelevant stat in regards of a big man's responsibilities.

I'll give you blocks, but you can't tell me Olajuwon was the better big man and base that solely on the steals advantage. :lol

Especially considering Duncan has Olajuwon on MVP's, Final MVP's (both individual awards) and championships (4). (The most important categories to rank a player.)

How is steals irrelevant? It's an important part of defense.

So your opinion is that since it's beyond a big man's responsibilities, Olajuwon's superiority in it should be ignored?

I look at it the other way. When a big man excels in something that big men normally dont excel it, it should be celebrated, not ignored. Should we ignore Dirk's 3 point shooting since 3 pt shooting isnt normally a big man's responsibility?

So Olajuwon is better at blocks. And steals. And on par in rebounds......so he's a better defensive player than Duncan.

And at the very worst, Olajuwon is on par with Duncan offensively.

So if they're equal offensively, and Olajuwon is superior defensively, then that means Olajuwon is a better overall player.

And in regards to the MVPs, Olajuwon played in a more competitive era. Before you argue this, think about Olajuwon's contemporaries (Bird, Jordan, Magic, Robinson, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley).

And yes, Duncan has more rings, but again, that goes to supporting casts. Who knows how Olajwon's career would've progressed had his teammates not been derailed by injuries and drugs.

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 02:49 AM

Aside from Garnett, there were no consistently dominant defensive forwards. Sure, Kirilenko had a few good years. So did Artest. But they disappeared from the limelight as quickly as they came.

So I still find Olajuwon's 9 first/second team placements to be a greater accomplishment than Duncan's b/c Olajuwon had to do it against far greater competition.

So then by your theory of Garnett being the only competition for Duncan, I can use the same theory for Olajuwon's first 3 All NBA Defensive First team selections and his 1st Alll Defensive 2nd team selection because his only competition was ...... :lol.....Mark Eaton.

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 02:54 AM

How is steals irrelevant? It's an important part of defense.

So your opinion is that since it's beyond a big man's responsibilities, Olajuwon's superiority in it should be ignored?

I look at it the other way. When a big man excels in something that big men normally dont excel it, it should be celebrated, not ignored. Should we ignore Dirk's 3 point shooting since 3 pt shooting isnt normally a big man's responsibility?

So Olajuwon is better at blocks. And steals. And on par in rebounds......so he's a better defensive player than Duncan.

Buddy

Steals and blocks don't tell the whole story on the defensive end of the court.

Duncan was perhaps the best positional defender the league has seen the past 20-30 years. Whether if it was precise timing on the hedge on the pick and roll or the precise weak side rotation to defer a shot around the basket. Position on defensive, whether if its recovering from a show on the hedge on the pick and roll or the ability to position one-self to rotate over on time to contest are all key attributes for a defensive player, which Duncan had. These attributes earned him ALL-NBA Defensive honors year in and year out regardless of the amount of steals he got.

Get a clue man.

wekko368

05-25-2010, 02:59 AM

So then by your theory of Garnett being the only competition for Duncan, I can use the same theory for Olajuwon's first 3 All NBA Defensive First team elections and his 1st Alll Defensive 2nd team election because his only competition was ...... :lol.....Mark Eaton.

And Ewing and Bol. Before you laugh at Bol, keep in mind the guy averaged between 3 and 5 blocks per game for the bulk of his career in the 80's. But if it makes you feel better, you can make an argument that 4 of Olajuwon's 9 (first team + second team) were "gimmes".

That still doesnt change the fact that at least 6 of Duncan's 8 (first team) were "gimmes". And lets not forget that in one of those years, 6 players made the defensive first team, and there were 3 forwards selected.

apalisoc_9

05-25-2010, 03:01 AM

Buddy

Steals and blocks don't tell the whole story on the defensive end of the court.

Duncan was perhaps the best positional defender the league has seen the past 20-30 years. Whether if it was precise timing on the hedge on the pick and roll or the precise weak side rotation to defer a shot around the basket. Position on defensive, whether if its recovering from a show on the hedge on the pick and roll or the ability to position one-self to rotate over on time to contest are all key attributes for a defensive player, which Duncan had. These attributes earned him ALL-NBA Defensive honors year in and year out regardless of the amount of steals he got.

Get a clue man.

steals are also fucking important!! Don't tell me, you think olajuwon was'mt a good roation guy? lols..srsly dude, I'm a bigtime spurs fan but your homerism is getting fucking ugly.

LOL @ steals not being important..LOLS

wekko368

05-25-2010, 03:05 AM

Buddy

Steals and blocks don't tell the whole story on the defensive end of the court.

Duncan was perhaps the best positional defender the league has seen the past 20-30 years. Whether if it was precise timing on the hedge on the pick and roll or the precise weak side rotation to defer a shot around the basket. Position on defensive, whether if its recovering from a show on the hedge on the pick and roll or the ability to position one-self to rotate over on time to contest are all key attributes for a defensive player, which Duncan had. These attributes earned him ALL-NBA Defensive honors year in and year out regardless of the amount of steals he got.

Get a clue man.

Get a clue?

Duncan may have been a better positional defender than Olajuwon, but Olajuwon's superior athleticism and quickness allowed him to compensate.

Olajuwon also got those all-nba defensive honors, but he also got the DPOY twice. And he's top 10 in steals. And he's the leading shot blocker. And as I've proven, he got his steals/blocks at a much higher rate than Duncan.

Duncan does everything a great defender should do. Olajuwon just did more.

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 03:06 AM

steals are also fucking important!! Don't tell me, you think olajuwon was'mt a good roation guy? lols..srsly dude, I'm a bigtime spurs fan but your homerism is getting fucking ugly.

LOL @ steals not being important..LOLS

I'm not just ignoring steals. Positional defense is extremely more vital of an attribute for a big man to covet than steals. IMO

Which is why Duncan was chosen on All-NBA Defensive Teams every year he's been in the league. It didn't matter if he got 1 steal a year or 2,000. It wasn't nearly as valued as the presence Duncan had in his awareness defensively, putting himself in near perfect position possession after possession.

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 03:08 AM

wekko368

05-25-2010, 03:14 AM

I'm not just ignoring steals. Positional defense is extremely more vital of an attribute for a big man to covet than steals. IMO

Which is why Duncan was chosen on All-NBA Defensive Teams every year he's been in the league. It didn't matter if he got 1 steal a year or 2,000. It wasn't nearly as valued as the presence Duncan had in his awareness defensively, putting himself in near perfect position possession after possession.

That's a faulty assumption. We've already discussed how defensively weak Duncan's contemporaries were. Duncan's consistent inclusion in the all-nba teams could result from his inferior peers just as easily as it could result from his stellar defense.

Btw, are you implying that Olajuwon had poor positional defense?

wekko368

05-25-2010, 03:25 AM

Wekko so after much deliberation we have established that you think Olajuwon was better in his prime. That's your opinion and I'll respect it.

But unfortunately after much deliberation on my part, I have to disagree.
Duncan was the better player in his prime, in my opinion.

Sorry bro nothing you've stated or brought to my attention has changed my mind even the slightest.

That's b/c you didn't enter the discussion with an open mind. You came in with your predetermined opinion and knew you wouldn't change it.

I don't want to be mean, but I've countered all of your arguments and invalidated your points. The only thing driving your position now is homerism. But there's nothing wrong with being a fan.

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 03:28 AM

:lol You just won't give up will you.

Will I'm a pretty stubborn individual as well.

That's a faulty assumption. We've already discussed how defensively weak Duncan's contemporaries were. Duncan's consistent inclusion in the all-nba teams could result from his inferior peers just as easily as it could result from his stellar defense.

I could use the same ammo about Olajuwon's contemporaries from 1984-1989 and even til 1993 til Mutombo/Mourning/O'Neal came in the picture.

Btw, are you implying that Olajuwon had poor positional defense?

No I'm implying Duncan's positional defense was so superior that steals or blocks was pretty irrelevant in explaining how dominant player he was on the defensive end. At least that's what the coaches and premiere analysts thought voting him on ALL-NBA Defensive teams every year he's been in the league.

There's only so many possessions throughout the course of a game. And every time down the floor you can get stops by contesting effectively and positioning yourself in the right place at the right time. Which Duncan was the best at year in and year out. Even if a player averaged 5 blocks a game, it still doesn't equate to being as valuable as a defensive player of Duncan's stature because of his ability to be in position and contest efficient enough to get a stop anytime down the floor.

Olajuwon was a great defender, but so was Duncan.

Olajuwon had the slight edge as a shot blocker, but I'd say Duncan had the edge on him in defensive awareness and positioning one self to get stops.

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 03:31 AM

I don't want to be mean, but I've countered all of your arguments and invalidated your points.

:lol

What points?

That's your opinion. Which I don't agree with.

In my opinion you have used the "lack" of Duncan's contemporaries but have ignored Olajuwon's.

wekko368

05-25-2010, 03:39 AM

I could use the same ammo about Olajuwon's contemporaries from 1984-1989 and even til 1993 til Mutombo/Mourning/O'Neal came in the picture.

You could, but it applies to Duncan much more than Olajuwon. Like I said before, you can consider maybe 4 of Olajuwon's 9 defensive teams to be "gimmes". But on that note, about 6 of Duncan's 8 are "gimmes" as well.

So like I said, Olajuwon's contemporaries were of a higher caliber than Duncan's.

No I'm implying Duncan's positional defense was so superior that steals or blocks was pretty irrelevant in explaining how dominant player he was on the defensive end. At least that's what the coaches and premiere analysts thought voting him on ALL-NBA Defensive teams every year he's been in the league.

Yet this superior positional defense that renders steals and blocks irrelevant wasn't capable of yielding a single DPOY.

Hmm.............

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 03:48 AM

So like I said, Olajuwon's contemporaries were of a higher caliber than Duncan's.

That is your opinion chief. Not a fact.

I don't agree with that.

Yet this superior positional defense that renders steals and blocks irrelevant wasn't capable of yielding a single DPOY.

Hmm.............

Yet those Defensive Player of the Year awards was still 1 NBA MVP, 1 NBA FINALS MVP and 2 rings short...

And that superior positional defense by him was the culprit and backbone of 4 championships and a reason why the Spurs were top 5 defensive team in the league every year in a 10 year span.

I can keep going you know.

wekko368

05-25-2010, 03:50 AM

:lol

What points?

That's your opinion. Which I don't agree with.

In my opinion you have used the "lack" of Duncan's contemporaries but have ignored Olajuwon's.

Your point about the minutes played affecting statistical totals.

Your point that Duncan's all-nba teams at F equates to all-nba teams at C.

Your point that the presence of SFs makes it harder for a PF to be selected for the F position on the all-defensive team.

Your point that Duncan's contemporaries (Garnett, Pippen, Malone, Sheed, Bowen, Artest, Kirlenko) to Mark Eaton. If I'm not mistaken, the total number of DPOYs that your list has equals the number that Eaton alone has.

Your point that regular season totals is a better statistical sample for gauging who has a better prime.

Your point that Olajuwon was a mediocre regular season player.

Your point that steals isn't an important part of defense.

Your point that the postseason isn't more important than the regular season.

Your point that more championships means he's a better player.

wekko368

05-25-2010, 03:52 AM

That is your opinion chief. Not a fact.

I don't agree with that.

And you'd be wrong. Ever heard of the phrase "golden era of centers"?

Yet those Defensive Player of the Year awards was still 1 NBA MVP, 1 NBA FINALS MVP and 2 rings short...

And that superior positional defense by him was the culprit and backbone of 4 championships and a reason why the Spurs were top 5 defensive team in the league every year in a 10 year span.

I can keep going you know.

Obviously you can keep going...you're just repeating arguments that I've already addressed.

I'm going to bed now. If you think of an original argument that hasn't already ben refuted, I'll address it in the morning.

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 03:59 AM

Your point that the presence of SFs makes it harder for a PF to be selected for the F position on the all-defensive team.

No..you didn't...I still believe it's a wash

Your point that Duncan's contemporaries (Garnett, Pippen, Malone, Sheed, Bowen, Artest, Kirlenko) to Mark Eaton. If I'm not mistaken, the total number of DPOYs that your list has equals the number that Eaton alone has. [/B]

No...I don't agree

Your point that regular season totals is a better statistical sample for gauging who has a better prime.

That wasn't me. Now you're getting me confused with someone else.

Your point that Olajuwon was a mediocre regular season player.

No....That wasn't me again.

Your point that steals isn't an important part of defense.

No I said steals wasn't nearly as important as positional defense for a post player.
So again you fail.

Your point that the postseason isn't more important than the regular season.

No that wasn't me again. Getting me confused with other people doesn't help your argument sir.

Your point that more championships means he's a better player.

No wrong again.

NBA MVP's are. Which Duncan has one more than Olajuwon. And yes the number of times a superstar leads a team to the Finals does play a factor in who's the better player. In Duncan and Olajuwon's case they were both the leaders on both ends offensively and defensively of their teams throughout their first 12 years in the league, where Duncan lead his team to two more championships.

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 04:08 AM

And you'd be wrong. Ever heard of the phrase "golden era of centers"?

Yeah and that had just started in 1993 and 1994 when O'Neal, Mutombo and Mourning were rookies. The competition of the golden era didn't start til Olajuwon was in his 9th year.

The era that consisted of Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, O'Neal, Mutombo, Mourning really started in 94-95, (not counting rookie seasons)

This golden era" lasted around 3-4 seasons 1994-1997, if your trying to really narrow the years down when all of those centers were in their prime.

Don't credit those 4 seasons for the 13 years Olajuwon was relevant in the league.

wekko368

05-25-2010, 08:51 AM

Manu, it looks like I did confuse several of your points with another poster's. Sorry, I guess it was too late for me. Continuing,

But I'm getting annoyed with you now. You have absolutely no arguments. I use logic to support my assertions and your only response is, "no, I don't agree."

Sorry, but if you disagree yet are unable to logically prove me wrong, then that means you're wrong.

And in regards to your positional defense argument, you're grossly overestimating its importance if you're using it to mitigate Duncan's pedestrian block/steals numbers. You can also look at defensive win shares. In Duncan's prime, his DWS range from 6.8-7.2 Olajuwon's ranges from 5.6-8.7. So although Duncan was consistently great, there were years when Olajuwon was simply better (and worse).

Additionally, the ability to steal the ball is important for all positions, including post positions. I thought this was obvious. I hope you're intentionally devaluing b/c Duncan had low steal numbers since the alternative would be that you're ignorant.

At some point, you need to look at the defensive metrics and accolades in favor of Olajuwon and rethink your position.

And in regards to your belief that the number of MVP's is a determination of greatness, do you believe that Nash is a greater player than Kobe?

One of your problems is that your not familiar with Rockets history. You're giving Duncan credit for his team's success and crediting Olajuwon for the Rockets' failures. Duncan had the luxury of joining an championship caliber team as soon as he came into the league. Olajuwon had a similar advantage, but his teamates were derailed through injuries (Sampson) and drugs (Wiggins, Lloyd, Lucas).

And Olajuwon's contemporaries were more than Ewing, Mourning, Robinson, Mutombo, and Shaq. Don't forget Smits. Or Daugherty. Or Duckworth. Or Parish. Or Eaton.

Mr.Robinson

05-25-2010, 10:07 AM

You could, but it applies to Duncan much more than Olajuwon. Like I said before, you can consider maybe 4 of Olajuwon's 9 defensive teams to be "gimmes". But on that note, about 6 of Duncan's 8 are "gimmes" as well.

So like I said, Olajuwon's contemporaries were of a higher caliber than Duncan's.

Yet this superior positional defense that renders steals and blocks irrelevant wasn't capable of yielding a single DPOY.

Hmm.............
Duncan didn't receive the award but does that mean Camby>Duncan on D? Duncan was a better defender than Hakeem. The league back then was faster paced. More boards and blocks. Centers were allowed to foul more often with no calls. Duncan's team D was far better than Hakeeems. Hakeem wasn't as good on one on one D either. He was a better shot blocker because he was a bit quicker and more athletic. Duncan was a bit heavier. Hakeem had to battle good centers like Ewing and DROB, he also had to battle tall stiffs. From centers to PF's. Duncan played in an era were it was harder for a big man. He also played in a whole different system. Slow, grinding and methodical. So save your stats, specially steals. Stockton is the greatest thief in history but I don't think he ever made a first team on D. Hakeem was versatile as hell but I compare his D to KG. Hakeem is in my top 10 but a couple spots below Tim.
For about 100 years a player's true measure has always been winning championships. Only when it's Tim Duncan does that not matter. He has 4 rings as the man only Jordan has more as the man.
Hakeem played in an easier era. There's a reason players were averaging sick stats. Fucking nostalgia makes people blind.

midnightpulp

05-25-2010, 10:18 AM

midnightpulp

05-25-2010, 10:27 AM

Name one aspect of the game that Duncan is great at? Rebounds, scoring, steals, blocks, free throws, and his stats will prove otherwise.

There's no point in discussing the matter with you. Your bias against Duncan overrides any objectivity you might be capable of and you'll simply find excuses against any argument I might present to you.

Indazone

05-25-2010, 10:31 AM

midnightpulp

05-25-2010, 10:34 AM

For all those saying Duncan is better than Olajuwon, then you're saying that Duncan is better than the Admiral, David Robinson. The League MVP picked over Hakeem. From which Hakeem was really pissed off for being slighted and proceeded in the next matchup between DRob and Hakeem, to completely dismantal the Admiral.

I don't think Duncan is even better than a prime David Robinson.

hW4uXlRGAF0

Duncan is better than Robinson (although I suspect Luva will disagree. The Admiral used to dunk the ball real hard, which is the kind of thing he associates with greatness). What does that have to do with anything?

midnightpulp

05-25-2010, 10:37 AM

Name one aspect of the game that Duncan is great at? Rebounds, scoring, steals, blocks, free throws, and his stats will prove otherwise.

Oh, and his stats prove otherwise of your implied otherwise.

wekko368

05-25-2010, 10:43 AM

Duncan didn't receive the award but does that mean Camby>Duncan on D? Duncan was a better defender than Hakeem. The league back then was faster paced. More boards and blocks. Centers were allowed to foul more often with no calls.

I brought up defensive win shares in an earlier post. This is relevant since DWS adjusts for pace. Also, Duncan's DWS is consistently much higher than Camby's. Therefore, even though Camby won multiple DPOY, you can make a valid argument that Duncan was a better defender.

However, in Olajuwon's best defensive years, his DWS is much higher than Duncan's, and if you couple that with the fact that Olajuwon did win DPOY and Duncan didn't, it makes a compelling argument for Olajuwon being a superior defender.

Duncan's team D was far better than Hakeeems. Hakeem wasn't as good on one on one D either.

So if Olajuwon had inferior team D and was an inferior one on one defender, why are his block numbers so superior to Duncan's?

Your opinions contradict each other.

He was a better shot blocker because he was a bit quicker and more athletic. Duncan was a bit heavier. Hakeem had to battle good centers like Ewing and DROB, he also had to battle tall stiffs.

Tall stiffs? Like Parish? Or Smits? Those guys would dominate in today's game. Yao is the definition of a tall stiff, but when healthy, he's the best center in the game.

Today's game is much softer than it was 20 years ago. Remember McHale's clothesline on Rambis? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that was called a regular foul.

In today's game, that'd be an ejection, fine, and multiple game suspension.

From centers to PF's. Duncan played in an era were it was harder for a big man.

I would love for you to give a logical explanation for this.

He also played in a whole different system. Slow, grinding and methodical.

And how do you think the Rockets played? They threw the ball into Olajuwon in the post and let him go one on one. If he was doubled, he'd kick it out for an open shot from a teammate. Thats as slow, grinding, and methodical as you can get.

Stockton is the greatest thief in history but I don't think he ever made a first team on D.

He was always behind Jordan, Dumars, Payton, and Robertson. They were better overall defenders. And yes, Stockton has the most steals all-time, but that's more of testament to his consistency and longetivity. Are you aware that there were only two years where he led the league in steals?

Hakeem was versatile as hell but I compare his D to KG. Hakeem is in my top 10 but a couple spots below Tim.

That's b/c you're a Spurs fan. In his prime, Olajuwon could do everything Duncan could do and more.

For about 100 years a player's true measure has always been winning championships. Only when it's Tim Duncan does that not matter. He has 4 rings as the man only Jordan has more as the man.

Championships are a team effort. This thread is about individual players and their primes.

Hakeem played in an easier era. There's a reason players were averaging sick stats. Fucking nostalgia makes people blind.

A 40 year old Michael Jordan was able to average 20 ppg in Duncan's era.

midnightpulp

05-25-2010, 10:45 AM

TD is better than Robinson. TD has the clutch factor, be it's insane to compare TD to Hakeem. Hakeem would abuse Duncan any day of the week.

I'm not arguing that. I feel peak Hakeem is the best basketball player I've personally seen.

I just don't understand your bias against Duncan. The "stats" prove he's a great basketball player, something you refuse to acknowledge. Duncan has the 4th highest all time playoff PER (min 100 games played). And PER is simply lumping together all those hard stats, adjusting it for pace, and arriving at a number. I mean, would you really rather play the game of "well, he averaged more points." "But his FG was higher!" "Yeah, but he averaged more blocks." "But he averaged more rebounds." On and on and on.

Don't really understand your issue with the metric. Of course it isn't the end point in evaluating a player, but it's useful for cutting to the chase when comparing players statistically.

wekko368

05-25-2010, 10:53 AM

I just don't understand your bias against Duncan. The "stats" prove he's a great basketball player, something you refuse to acknowledge. Duncan has the 4th highest all time playoff PER (min 100 games played). And PER is simply lumping together all those hard stats, adjusting it for pace, and arriving at a number. I mean, would you really rather play the game of "well, he averaged more points." "But his FG was higher!" "Yeah, but he averaged more blocks." "But he averaged more rebounds." On and on and on.

Don't really understand your issue with the metric. Of course it isn't the end point in evaluating a player, but it's useful for cutting to the chase when comparing players statistically.

Olajuwon and Duncan have the same career playoff PER. This actually favors Olajuwon since his decline has already been factored into his PER.

As Duncan ages, his PER will decline which will pull down his career average.

Unless the Spurs don't make the playoffs anymore...

Ghazi

05-25-2010, 10:59 AM

If you were a GM, would you draft a team based off of PER? Is this what the game has come down to, a bunch of nerds number crunching to determine who is the better player? I asked you what aspect of the game Duncan is great at? You bring up this PER shit.

Sons even though I used to fancy PER I grow tired of it too. I mean, PER says Andrew fucking Glassnum is a productive player. PER said CP3 was the 2nd best player in the league last year :lmao... jeez... so many holes. It doesn't factor defensive value of players either.

Not a bad stat, but I don't like bringing it up in convo anymore.

midnightpulp

05-25-2010, 11:12 AM

If you were a GM, would you draft a team based off of PER? Is this what the game has come down to, a bunch of nerds number crunching to determine who is the better player? I asked you what aspect of the game Duncan is great at? You bring up this PER shit.

Duncan's probably the 3rd best low-post player behind Kareem and Hakeem. So yeah, being the 3rd best post player qualifies as having a "great" lowpost game. Even if you put McHale, Shaq, and Wilt in front, being the 6th best at something still qualifies as "great."

Duncan has been regarded as one of the best passing bigs of all time. Bill Russell has acknowledged this. It's also well acknowledged that he's one of the best defenders of all time, especially help and paint defense. You keep bringing up "well, he doesn't guard the other team's best post-player." Why should he? Teams don't do that anymore so they don't risk getting their own in foul trouble. Kobe won't guard the other team's best perimeter player until crunch time. Why wear out your best offensive weapon and put him at risk?

Duncan's a great rebounder. 17th all time rpg in the playoffs. Ahead of KG, Shaq, Malone, Hakeem, etc.

Head-to-head matchups. Go to basketball-reference and compare Duncan head to head to other premier bigs in his era. He out performs all of them and has a winning record against all of them but Shaq.

I know what you want to see on Duncan's stat lines. Gaudy PPG, like Karl "I Can't Shoot 50% in the Playoffs" Malone. Pop's system is much too slow and deliberate for any one player to really go wild on a per game basis. Put Duncan in the triangle, and he averages 25 for his career. In Pop's system, Duncan's essentially the point guard. There's a reason many Spur players have led the league or been near the top in 3 pt FG%. Because of Duncan, the double teams he draws, and his passing ability. And you see how that 3 point shooting has suffered since Duncan's decline, since he doesn't command the attention he once did?

What more do you need? Him to travel back in time and play against Kareem and bring home a few championships?

kingmalaki

05-25-2010, 11:12 AM

Yes we are, so why are you comparing one of Duncan's worst shooting series with Hakeem best season?

Someone said Duncan was unguardable from 99-05. That simply isn't true. He was quite guardable in the series that I listed, and it's just a "coincidence" that quality defenders with size were on him that series (a Laker with Shaq as support and the Wallace boys). Is the question not who would best who at their peak? If the pivots from 94/95 couldn't stop a peak Hakeem then I don't think Duncan could either. If Horry/Shaq or the Wallaces could make him struggle then I like Hakeems chances of slowing him down, at least more than his chances of stopping Hakeem. It's not like we didn't see Dream do this to elite centers on the way to his two titles.

And I'm laughing at someone trying to compare All D selections when there was one slot for Hakeem, since he was a center, and two for Duncan since he is a PF. And the dudes besting out Hakeem, mainly Robinson, I don't see Duncan making squads over him.

Phenomanul

05-25-2010, 11:45 AM

Mr.Robinson

05-25-2010, 11:54 AM

Your entire post reeks of stupidity. Duncan has never been great at anything, I mean nothing. Hakeem was a much better defender than Duncan. Hakeem never shy'd away from guarding the other teams best big man like Duncan has for most of his career. Mikan, Magic, and Russell all have more rings as "the man". Go away, child, you should be banned for stupid posts like that.

Easier era? Hakeem went at it with Moses Malone, Kareem, Ewing, Parish, Robinson, Ducksworth, Mchale, Mourning, Shaq.
LOL you do know Hakeem had a lot of help guarding DROB in the 95 series, right? It's Duckworth btw. Duckworth, seriously? LOL Kareem usually dominated Hakeem, and that's an ancient Kareem. Shaq couldn't guard Tim. McHale would be abused by Tim. And Robinson himself said Tim was a far greater player than himself ever was. Malone was in the east when Hakeem came into the league and was about a 10 year vet already. Ewing was always a level below DROB and Hakeem. No doubt that era was easier. You had multiple players averaging 30 points. 14 rebounds and 4 blocks as well. Why is that? Teams used to average 105 points like it was nothing. Some teams even averaged more than 110 multiple seasons. You're a Rockets fan so I know you got your reasons, but...

Mr.Robinson

05-25-2010, 11:57 AM

For all those saying Duncan is better than Olajuwon, then you're saying that Duncan is better than the Admiral, David Robinson. The League MVP picked over Hakeem. From which Hakeem was really pissed off for being slighted and proceeded in the next matchup between DRob and Hakeem, to completely dismantal the Admiral.

I don't think Duncan is even better than a prime David Robinson.

hW4uXlRGAF0
Now you're just trolling. Duncan won a ring in 03 by himself practically. Robinson himself has said tim was a better player.

Mr.Robinson

05-25-2010, 11:58 AM

TD is better than Robinson. TD has the clutch factor, be it's insane to compare TD to Hakeem. Hakeem would abuse Duncan any day of the week.

I bet you wear a Kobe jersey but you suck at playing basketball. I hate kids like you.

Mr.Robinson

05-25-2010, 12:08 PM

Someone said Duncan was unguardable from 99-05. That simply isn't true. He was quite guardable in the series that I listed, and it's just a "coincidence" that quality defenders with size were on him that series (a Laker with Shaq as support and the Wallace boys). Is the question not who would best who at their peak? If the pivots from 94/95 couldn't stop a peak Hakeem then I don't think Duncan could either. If Horry/Shaq or the Wallaces could make him struggle then I like Hakeems chances of slowing him down, at least more than his chances of stopping Hakeem. It's not like we didn't see Dream do this to elite centers on the way to his two titles.

And I'm laughing at someone trying to compare All D selections when there was one slot for Hakeem, since he was a center, and two for Duncan since he is a PF. And the dudes besting out Hakeem, mainly Robinson, I don't see Duncan making squads over him.
Same Horry who helped guarding DROB in the 95 series. You're hating. Horry was a great defender. Horry was abused by Duncan BTW.

Mr.Robinson

05-25-2010, 12:10 PM

I brought up defensive win shares in an earlier post. This is relevant since DWS adjusts for pace. Also, Duncan's DWS is consistently much higher than Camby's. Therefore, even though Camby won multiple DPOY, you can make a valid argument that Duncan was a better defender.

However, in Olajuwon's best defensive years, his DWS is much higher than Duncan's, and if you couple that with the fact that Olajuwon did win DPOY and Duncan didn't, it makes a compelling argument for Olajuwon being a superior defender.

So if Olajuwon had inferior team D and was an inferior one on one defender, why are his block numbers so superior to Duncan's?

Your opinions contradict each other.

Tall stiffs? Like Parish? Or Smits? Those guys would dominate in today's game. Yao is the definition of a tall stiff, but when healthy, he's the best center in the game.

Today's game is much softer than it was 20 years ago. Remember McHale's clothesline on Rambis? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that was called a regular foul.

In today's game, that'd be an ejection, fine, and multiple game suspension.

I would love for you to give a logical explanation for this.

And how do you think the Rockets played? They threw the ball into Olajuwon in the post and let him go one on one. If he was doubled, he'd kick it out for an open shot from a teammate. Thats as slow, grinding, and methodical as you can get.

He was always behind Jordan, Dumars, Payton, and Robertson. They were better overall defenders. And yes, Stockton has the most steals all-time, but that's more of testament to his consistency and longetivity. Are you aware that there were only two years where he led the league in steals?

That's b/c you're a Spurs fan. In his prime, Olajuwon could do everything Duncan could do and more.

Championships are a team effort. This thread is about individual players and their primes.

A 40 year old Michael Jordan was able to average 20 ppg in Duncan's era.
Was 3 seconds on defensive players even a rule before?

The league went to a perimeter friendly league in 01 or so. Come on you should know why it got harder for big men.

kingmalaki

05-25-2010, 12:13 PM

For all those downplaying Duncan's defensive prowess, and the importance of positional defense....

Look at the Spurs' opponents FG%, and opponents PPG from 1999-2005...

Record setting defense is what you'll find.

All this despite several league-driven rule changes aimed at making the Spurs' defensive schemes less effective.

That had nothing to do with an all world defender at C in Robinson (the one that allowed him not to guard Shaq) and the other all world defender at SF? These are luxuries I wish Hakeem had.

kingmalaki

05-25-2010, 12:18 PM

Same Horry who helped guarding DROB in the 95 series. You're hating. Horry was a great defender. Horry was abused by Duncan BTW.

Abused in 01 and 02????

Horry is a good defender. I'm sure one would rather go against him then Ewing, Robinson or Shaq. Just a guess. I'm not even counting the yr super old Karl Malone shut him down (2004). And if you can count Horry as helping in 95, then can't I count Rodman, Grant, Oakley and Mason all as helping in 94/95? They were all very good defenders as well.

Mr.Robinson

05-25-2010, 12:47 PM

Abused in 01 and 02????

Horry is a good defender. I'm sure one would rather go against him then Ewing, Robinson or Shaq. Just a guess. I'm not even counting the yr super old Karl Malone shut him down (2004). And if you can count Horry as helping in 95, then can't I count Rodman, Grant, Oakley and Mason all as helping in 94/95? They were all very good defenders as well.

In 01 Duncan averaged 23 and 12. In 02 he had like 29 and 17 or so. I believe that's abuse. In 04 despite being able to guard Duncan one on one at times Malone had help because the Lakers were allowed to clog the paint because the Spurs were shooting somethng like 20% from the 3 point line in that series. Duncan still had 21 and 12 in that series. Anything else?

wekko368

05-25-2010, 01:05 PM

Was 3 seconds on defensive players even a rule before?

The league went to a perimeter friendly league in 01 or so. Come on you should know why it got harder for big men.

It made the game easier for defensive big men. Zone defense allows a big man to always be near the basket to protect it.

The defensive 3 second rule applies when a defender is in the paint for 3 seconds and not guarding anyone. In the past, this would've been called an illegal defense.

The previous illegal defense rule enforced a man-to-man defense unless the defense was double teaming the ball.

Zones did make it harder for offensive big men, but I think this is somewhat offset by the league calling more fouls and reducing physical defense.

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 01:12 PM

That had nothing to do with an all world defender at C in Robinson (the one that allowed him not to guard Shaq) and the other all world defender at SF? These are luxuries I wish Hakeem had.

:lol

Robinson from 1999-2003 painfully regressed due to an 89 year old back. He was half the player then and was simply a role player.

And to the notion that Duncan benefited because he joined a championship caliber team is ludicrous.

Robinson, Elliott, Elie and Johnson were all way past their prime in 1999 and were all nothing more than role players. Saying those four players made up a championship caliber team without Duncan is so wrong to say.

In 2003, Robinson had hardly anything left in the tank, Parker was getting replaced by Speedy Claxton to close quarters, and Manu Ginobili was a rookie averaging an inefficient 7 points per game. Those two players weren't anything near to what they were by 2007.

Do I need to bring back Bill Simmons quote to demonstrate this?

"Helplessly, we've watched him carry the Spurs to three titles, a number that could have been five if not for Derek Fisher's miracle shot in 2004 and Manu Ginobili's stupid foul of Dirk Nowitzki last season." - Bill Simmons

"Assuming the Spurs win the 2007 title and Duncan captures his fourth Finals MVP award (both decent bets), his first professional decade will have concluded with four rings, two regular-season MVP awards and nine first-team All-NBA nods. His best teammates have been David Robinson (who turned 33 in Duncan's rookie year), Manu Ginobili (never a top-15 player) and Tony Parker (ditto). In fact, Duncan has never played for a dominant team; the Spurs have never had quite enough talent to roll through the league. Trapped at the top of the standings, they've been forced to rely on others' failed lottery picks, foreign rookies, journeymen and head cases with baggage. Zoom through San Antonio's past 10 rosters on basketball-reference.com some time. You'll be shocked. Tim Duncan has never played on a great basketball team. Not once." - Bill Simmons

"Duncan is the hub of it all, the oversize big brother who looks out for everyone else. During breaks in the action, you can always count on him to throw an arm around a teammate before dispensing advice or to wave everyone over for an impromptu pep talk. He's their defensive anchor, smartest player, emotional leader, crunch-time scorer and most competitive gamer, one of those rare superstars who simply can't be measured by statistics alone. Fifty years from now, some stat geek will crunch numbers from Duncan's era and come to the conclusion that Kevin Garnett was just as good. And he'll be wrong. No NBA team that featured a healthy Duncan would have missed the playoffs for three straight years. It's an impossibility.

Now ...

I'm not a fan of the whole overrated/underrated thing. With so many TV and radio shows, columnists, bloggers and educated sports fans around, it's nearly impossible for anything to be rated improperly anymore. Everyone is constantly searching for fresh topics to dissect, so could anything slip under the radar at this point? Think back to when Duncan entered the league: The web was still rounding into shape, sportswriters weren't screaming at each other on TV, radio hosts were confined to talking about their local teams and everyone read their local columnists. That's it. Ten years later, a hyperactive sports world means that, if anything, underrated players (like Ben Wallace, for instance) quickly become overrated because everyone spends so much time discussing how underrated they are. Well, I say Tim Duncan is underrated. You know what else? He's wildly underrated." - Bill Simmons

Indazone

05-25-2010, 01:12 PM

Forget the championships, forget the teams.

Mano-E-Mano One on One Hakeem would beat Duncan.

wekko368

05-25-2010, 01:12 PM

In 04 despite being able to guard Duncan one on one at times Malone had help because the Lakers were allowed to clog the paint because the Spurs were shooting somethng like 20% from the 3 point line in that series. Duncan still had 21 and 12 in that series. Anything else?

Is 21 ppg on 47% shooting from the field and 67% from the line something to be proud of?

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 01:14 PM

:lol

Robinson from 1999-2003 painfully regressed due to an 89 year old back. He was half the player then and was simply a role player.

And to the notion that Duncan benefited because he joined a championship caliber team is ludicrous.

Robinson, Elliott, Elie and Johnson were all way past their prime in 1999 and were all nothing more than role players. Saying those four players made up a championship caliber team without Duncan is so wrong to say.

In 2003, Robinson had hardly anything left in the tank, Parker was getting replaced by Speedy Claxton to close quarters, and Manu Ginobili was a rookie averaging an inefficient 7 points per game. Those two players weren't anything near to what they were by 2007.

Do I need to bring back Bill Simmons quote to demonstrate this?

"Helplessly, we've watched him carry the Spurs to three titles, a number that could have been five if not for Derek Fisher's miracle shot in 2004 and Manu Ginobili's stupid foul of Dirk Nowitzki last season." - Bill Simmons

"Assuming the Spurs win the 2007 title and Duncan captures his fourth Finals MVP award (both decent bets), his first professional decade will have concluded with four rings, two regular-season MVP awards and nine first-team All-NBA nods. His best teammates have been David Robinson (who turned 33 in Duncan's rookie year), Manu Ginobili (never a top-15 player) and Tony Parker (ditto). In fact, Duncan has never played for a dominant team; the Spurs have never had quite enough talent to roll through the league. Trapped at the top of the standings, they've been forced to rely on others' failed lottery picks, foreign rookies, journeymen and head cases with baggage. Zoom through San Antonio's past 10 rosters on basketball-reference.com some time. You'll be shocked. Tim Duncan has never played on a great basketball team. Not once." - Bill Simmons

"Duncan is the hub of it all, the oversize big brother who looks out for everyone else. During breaks in the action, you can always count on him to throw an arm around a teammate before dispensing advice or to wave everyone over for an impromptu pep talk. He's their defensive anchor, smartest player, emotional leader, crunch-time scorer and most competitive gamer, one of those rare superstars who simply can't be measured by statistics alone. Fifty years from now, some stat geek will crunch numbers from Duncan's era and come to the conclusion that Kevin Garnett was just as good. And he'll be wrong. No NBA team that featured a healthy Duncan would have missed the playoffs for three straight years. It's an impossibility.

Now ...

I'm not a fan of the whole overrated/underrated thing. With so many TV and radio shows, columnists, bloggers and educated sports fans around, it's nearly impossible for anything to be rated improperly anymore. Everyone is constantly searching for fresh topics to dissect, so could anything slip under the radar at this point? Think back to when Duncan entered the league: The web was still rounding into shape, sportswriters weren't screaming at each other on TV, radio hosts were confined to talking about their local teams and everyone read their local columnists. That's it. Ten years later, a hyperactive sports world means that, if anything, underrated players (like Ben Wallace, for instance) quickly become overrated because everyone spends so much time discussing how underrated they are. Well, I say Tim Duncan is underrated. You know what else? He's wildly underrated." - Bill Simmons

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 01:31 PM

It made the game easier for defensive big men. Zone defense allows a big man to always be near the basket to protect it.

The defensive 3 second rule applies when a defender is in the paint for 3 seconds and not guarding anyone. In the past, this would've been called an illegal defense.

The previous illegal defense rule enforced a man-to-man defense unless the defense was double teaming the ball.

Zones did make it harder for offensive big men, but I think this is somewhat offset by the league calling more fouls and reducing physical defense.

You obviously never watched Duncan or the Spurs for that matter.

Popovich has ran the zone probably 2 times during the Duncan era. Pop hates the zone and never runs it.

Making any point you make on Duncan insignificant. You never watched him.

wekko368

05-25-2010, 01:33 PM

wekko368

05-25-2010, 01:43 PM

You obviously never watched Duncan or the Spurs for that matter.

Popovich has ran the zone probably 2 times during the Duncan era. Pop hates the zone and never runs it.

Making any point you make on Duncan insignificant. You never watched him.

Did I say that the Spurs ran the zone? In fact, did I say anything untrue?

I was responding to the poster who said that the new rules were detrimental to bigs.

I was merely pointing out how the rule changes benefitted defensive bigs by allowing them to stay near the basket regardless of where their assigned man was.

No offense, but your attempt to discredit me is laughable.

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 01:43 PM

It may be ludicrous, but it's true. At that time, how many big men were considered better than Robinson? 3 years removed from his MVP year and you consider him a role player?

No you're wrong there. Robinson was nothing more than a role player from 1999-2003.

To be honest, I don't know who Bill Simmons is so I'm not sure why you put so much faith in his opinion. In any case, it hurts your argument when you're unable to support your own assertions.

Wow you don't know who Bill Simmons is?

First you claim Duncan benefited from the 3 second rule, implying that the Spurs used a zone.

Which they never did and never will.

Then you don't even know who the best journalist and sports mind the biggest sports network has to offer.

The more and more I talk to you, the less and less credible you are becoming from actually being aware of the NBA outside of you're beloved Rockets.

You claim that Robinson wasn't a role player during the years he played with Duncan.

You claim an old Elliott, Johnson, Elie and 34-35 year old Robinson to being championship caliber without Duncan.

BTW, I am supporting my own assertions by quoting Bill Simmons, the most well respected journalist the biggest sports network has to offer.

Here's his website..

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/simmons/

And he's an NBA Fan first and foremost, and a Celtics fan at heart. Has no ties to San Antonio.

And let's not forget that in 2006, Mario Elie said that Olajuwon was the greatest player he ever played with (Duncan being the 2nd greatest).

So whose opinion would you trust more....Bill Simmons (whoever he is) or an unbiased player (now an assistant coach) who won championships with both Duncan and Olajuwon?

Where the quotes?

I can sit here and say a bunch of things too that I've " heard". But without quotes they're insignificant.

21_Blessings

05-25-2010, 01:45 PM

BTW, I am supporting my own assertions by quoting Bill Simmons, the most well respected journalist the biggest sports network has to offer.

:lmao

So much dumb here.

wekko368

05-25-2010, 01:48 PM

Where the quotes?

I can sit here and say a bunch of things too that I've " heard". But without quotes they're insignificant.

http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2006/08/mario-elie-compares-hakeem-olajuwon.html

"Elie: "I love Tim. I think he may be the second best player I played with but 'Dream,' just his performance in pressure situations—when David Robinson got the '95 MVP, 'Dream' told me, 'Mario, he’s borrowing my trophy.' When I heard that I said, 'Somebody’s in trouble tonight.' That guy put on a performance—under that pressure against the MVP and we have no home court advantage—and 'Dream' just dominated that position."

MaNu4Tres

05-25-2010, 01:50 PM

Want more quotes, to see what kind of player Duncan was?

"He is probably the best player to ever play the position the way he plays it," said Utah coach Jerry Sloan, who coached Jazz great Karl Malone. -From the coach of Karl Malone of 18 years.

"I think all around, there's never been a big forward quite like him," said Hall of Fame coach and analyst Jack Ramsay. "Bob Pettit was a great scorer and rebounder. Karl Malone was a more powerful player, but they didn't have the versatility Tim does. Kevin McHale was probably the best low-post, back-to-the-basket big forward, and he was a good defender, but he, too, couldn't do the things Duncan can do."

"He's pretty unique in how he plays," Pettit said. "He can play with his back to the basket or facing it. I spent 95%-97% of the time facing the basket. He's pretty versatile as a player. It also seems that he's stepped it up in the playoffs."

"In my 20 years in the NBA, Duncan is the best big to play the game," says former Houston Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy. " O'Neal always had the benefit of a dominant perimeter player, from [Penny] Hardaway to [Kobe] Bryant to [Dwyane] Wade. Duncan has had very good players, but he's never had that dominant player, so that's why I give him the edge."