How would a prime Olajuwon fare against a prime Duncan?

[Lawrence_Taylor]

would olajuwon shred duncan into pieces?

[4>0rings]

He doesn't fall for pump fakes in the post.

[Giuseppe]

Hard to recall the prime of Hakeem, all that's left are memories of his humiliating play at the end.

Tim Duncan, take heed, old man.

[Roddy Beaubois]

would olajuwon shred duncan into pieces?

yup

[Lawrence_Taylor]

Hard to recall the prime of Hakeem, all that's left are memories of his humiliating play at the end.

Tim Duncan, take heed, old man.
Dreamshake buddy.

NBA All 1st team, NBA All defensive team, MVP, DPOY, FINALS MVP all in the same year.


Olajuwon was that player for one year.

[MateoNeygro]

Negative.

[dirk4mvp]

Yes. He is the better player.

[Juanobili]

I don't know, but i do know that it would be fuckin epic

[JJ Hickson]

Olajuwon >> Duncan

[noob cake]

Dreamshake buddy.

NBA All 1st team, NBA All defensive team, MVP, DPOY, FINALS MVP all in the same year.


Olajuwon was that player for one year.

That is pretty much the ultimate achievement, aside from winning multiple championships as the first option.

[pauls931]

I'd go with Hakeem after seeing what he did to the Suns in 1995 surrounded by scrubs. My God he was unstoppable. Turnarounds, shakes, blocks, determination... I was so dissapointed when they cancelled the 1 on 1 game between he and shaq.

[blink]

he'd do what pau gasol is doing to amare right now. true story.

[TDMVPDPOY]

tim duncan wouldnt get exposed on that dreamshake bs like other players, duncan rarely jumps for blocks anyway

[benefactor]

He wouldn't shred him, but he would win.

[Vertical]

David Robinson was more athletic than Tim Duncan. David in his prime was more talented imo. Hakeem just crushed him like a bug.

[Shastafarian]

EhCR72IfEqg

Hard to say but it's definite Jordan would bukkake all over Kobe.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Hakeem in his prime was as good as anyone, but career was I still say Duncan > Hakeem because his prime was a lot longer than 2 years.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

but yeah, 1994 Olajuwon > 2003 Duncan.

[JoeTait75]

Olajuwon > Duncan. Same answer as the last time this topic came up.

[Shastafarian]

but yeah, 1994 Olajuwon > 2003 Duncan.

Duncan averaged more rebounds (15.4 to 10.3) and blocks (3.3 to 2.8). Hakeem averaged more points but they had the same FG%. Can you honestly say Hakeem was overall better based on those stats?

[JoeTait75]

Duncan averaged more rebounds (15.4 to 10.3) and blocks (3.3 to 2.8). Hakeem averaged more points but they had the same FG%. Can you honestly say Hakeem was overall better based on those stats?

Watching each player in his prime helps more than reading statistics.

[DJ Mbenga]

it would be a sad thing to see. olajuwon would get anything he wants. they would need a mercy rule

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Duncan averaged more rebounds (15.4 to 10.3) and blocks (3.3 to 2.8). Hakeem averaged more points but they had the same FG%. Can you honestly say Hakeem was overall better based on those stats?


Not sure what numbers you're looking at. Dream averaged 11.9 boards and 3.7 blocks in 94, while Duncan averaged 12.9 boards and 2.9 blocks in 03. Dream also shot a higher % in 94 than Duncan shot in 03.

[Shastafarian]

Watching each player in his prime helps more than reading statistics.

Yeah Duncan sucked in his prime. He had no speed or low post moves. People get all wet when someone mentions the Dream Shake. Duncan was a beast in his prime.

[Shastafarian]

Not sure what numbers you're looking at. Dream averaged 11.9 boards and 3.7 blocks in 94, while Duncan averaged 12.9 boards and 2.9 blocks in 03. Dream also shot a higher % in 94 than Duncan shot in 03.

Sorry I was doing playoff numbers. I figured that's what you were talking about when you did the comparison.

[JoeTait75]

Yeah Duncan sucked in his prime. He had no speed or low post moves. People get all wet when someone mentions the Dream Shake. Duncan was a beast in his prime.

Spurs fans are just like Lake Show fans in an MJ vs. Kobe thread when this topic comes up.

Tim isn't as good as Dream. That's okay. He's still good. It's not like anyone is saying Vitaly Potapenko > Duncan.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Sorry I was doing playoff numbers. I figured that's what you were talking about when you did the comparison.


In the 94 playoffs dream averaged 4 blocks per game. By no means was Duncan anything short of a great defender in 03, but 94 dream was undeniably a better defender.

[Shastafarian]

Tim isn't as good as Dream. That's okay. He's still good. It's not like anyone is saying Vitaly Potapenko > Duncan.

So then I can say Kobe in his prime is without a doubt better than LeBron. All these guys are great and to say one is surely better than the other is so ridiculous.


Good luck in Cleveland by the way. I hear Jamison is really gonna try hard to be the #1 option next year :rollin

[DAF86]

In the 94 playoffs dream averaged 4 blocks per game. By no means was Duncan anything short of a great defender in 03, but 94 dream was undeniably a better defender.

Aren't you 18? How can you remember things from 94?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So then I can say Kobe in his prime is without a doubt better than LeBron.


I don't think Joetait is gonna argue with you there.

[JoeTait75]

So then I can say Kobe in his prime is without a doubt better than LeBron.

Knock yourself out. DoK is right, I'm not exactly manning the barricades for LeBron these days.


Good luck in Cleveland by the way. I hear Jamison is really gonna try hard to be the #1 option next year :rollin

It's all good, we're a big-league town here, we have other teams.

[Shastafarian]

Aren't you 18? How can you remember things from 94?

He's right about the stats. It was my mistake. I accidentally tallied the numbers from the 95 playoffs. Hakeem averaged 4 blocks and 11 rpg but only shot 52% from the field. Less than 2003 Duncan's 53%. BUT HE WAS CLEARLY BETTER!

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Idk why I'm getting attacked by Spurfan when I was one of the few people in this thread who said Duncan > Hakeem career wise.

[Shastafarian]

It's all good, we're a big-league town here, we have other teams.

:lol

I'm not sure I'd call them teams.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

He's right about the stats. It was my mistake. I accidentally tallied the numbers from the 95 playoffs. Hakeem averaged 4 blocks and 11 rpg but only shot 52% from the field. Less than 2003 Duncan's 53%. BUT HE WAS CLEARLY BETTER!


94 Dream won MVP, DPOY and finals MVP. That's I think he was better. All three of those in the same season is pretty fuckin impressive.

[Shastafarian]

Idk why I'm getting attacked by Spurfan when I was one of the few people in this thread who said Duncan > Hakeem career wise.

I'm not attacking you. I'm trying to say that this notion (in a troll thread of all places) of one guy being better than the other is subjective. These people who are legitimately claiming one guy was better than the other are so full of shit it's hilarious.

[DAF86]

He's right about the stats. It was my mistake. I accidentally tallied the numbers from the 95 playoffs. Hakeem averaged 4 blocks and 11 rpg but only shot 52% from the field. Less than 2003 Duncan's 53%. BUT HE WAS CLEARLY BETTER!

I'm not saying he's wrong. I honestly want to know if he remembers things from 1994.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I honestly want to know if he remembers things from 1994.


Have you ever heard of ESPN classic?

[DAF86]

Have you ever heard of ESPN classic?

Not in Latin America.

[JoeTait75]

:lol

I'm not sure I'd call them teams.

Obviously though, they beat the Texas League and the UFL.


I'm trying to say that this notion (in a troll thread of all places) of one guy being better than the other is subjective.

Of course it is. So why are you so bent about it?

[TD 21]

In the 94 playoffs dream averaged 4 blocks per game. By no means was Duncan anything short of a great defender in 03, but 94 dream was undeniably a better defender.

Nobody averages 4 bpg anymore. That's like saying Russell and Chamberlain were better rebounders than Duncan because they averaged 22 rpg. It's irrelevant, because in this era players don't post stats like that.

Olajuwon was more athletic and flashier so, like Garnett, he appealed more to the masses than Duncan. But, Duncan was better.

People already have either forgotten or flat out don't know how great Duncan was. There was this illusion that he's "always had a lot of help", but it's not true. Particularly in the early 2000s, he carried a ridiculously heavy load.

[Blake]

Dreamshake buddy.

NBA All 1st team, NBA All defensive team, MVP, DPOY, FINALS MVP all in the same year.


Olajuwon was that player for one year.

Except for DPOY, so was Duncan.

Yippie.

[Blake]

Hakeem in his prime was as good as anyone, but career was I still say Duncan > Hakeem because his prime was a lot longer than 2 years.


but yeah, 1994 Olajuwon > 2003 Duncan.

pretty much

[Shastafarian]

Obviously though, they beat the Texas League and the UFL.
Would they? The Indians just lost two games to the Royals :lol



Of course it is. So why are you so bent about it?
I dunno. I guess I'm easily trolled, even by people that aren't trolling.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Nobody averages 4 bpg anymore. That's like saying Russell and Chamberlain were better rebounders than Duncan because they averaged 22 rpg. It's irrelevant, because in this era players don't post stats like that.

Olajuwon was more athletic and flashier so, like Garnett, he appealed more to the masses than Duncan. But, Duncan was better.

People already have either forgotten or flat out don't know how great Duncan was. There was this illusion that he's "always had a lot of help", but it's not true. Particularly in the early 2000s, he carried a ridiculously heavy load.


Dwight is currently averaging 3.6 blocks per game in the playoffs. Both Duncan and Dream carried a similar load in the two discussed years. Both seasons were two of the best individual seasons in NBA history, but I give Dream the slight edge because of the DPOY and defensive impact he had.

[TD 21]

Dwight is currently averaging 3.6 blocks per game in the playoffs. Both Duncan and Dream carried a similar load in the two discussed years. Both seasons were two of the best individual seasons in NBA history, but I give Dream the slight edge because of the DPOY and defensive impact he had.

Playoffs. I'm talking about regular season. No one posts those types of numbers. It's been a while since someone averaged even 3 bpg, let alone 4. Different era, different numbers. Saying Olajuwon averaged 4 bpg doesn't make him a better defender, though. DPOY is a joke. Duncan and Bowen, who spearheaded a historically great defense for years, both don't have one. That right there tells you all you need to know about the award.

Let me ask all you people who constantly place seemingly every great player in history above Duncan: How did he accomplish all he did if he wasn't that great? Keep in mind he didn't have a bloated payroll annually and, while he obviously played with talent in his day, it's not like he played on the '86 Celtics. So how did he do all he did? Luck? I don't get it.

[JoeTait75]

Would they? The Indians just lost two games to the Royals :lol

The Tribe is more International League/American Association than Texas League, to be fair.

To also be fair to Tim, he doesn't have Dream's flash. That does make a difference, and maybe it shouldn't.

But Dream went up against better big man than Tim did- and he dominated them in the crunch. You can throw around the numbers and the achievements, I get all that. Dream faced Ewing, Robinson and Shaq with stakes highest. He took those guys apart.

The '86 Celtics frontcourt didn't exactly hold him down either, BTW...

You look at the big men Tim has faced, outside of Shaq, it just isn't that impressive. I'm not talking about PFs, guys like KG and Webber. I'm talking about big men- which is really what Tim is.

That, IMO, should make a difference.

[djohn2oo8]

Playoffs. I'm talking about regular season. No one posts those types of numbers. It's been a while since someone averaged even 3 bpg, let alone 4. Different era, different numbers. Saying Olajuwon averaged 4 bpg doesn't make him a better defender, though. DPOY is a joke. Duncan and Bowen, who spearheaded a historically great defense for years, both don't have one. That right there tells you all you need to know about the award.

Let me ask all you people who constantly place seemingly every great player in history above him: How did he accomplish all he did if he wasn't that great? Keep in mind he didn't have a bloated payroll annually and, while he obviously played with talent in his day, it's not like he played on the '86 Celtics. So how did he do all he did, luck? I don't get it.

Wait, because Duncan and dirtyass Bowen don't have awards make it a joke? :lmao

[TD 21]

Pretty much. How could they not have won it? Seriously, put your bias aside for a minute. These two spearheaded a historically great defense for years. How does Camby have one, but neither of them? The award is a joke. You don't win it unless you're some athletic freak or physical specimen. It's all about looking the part and neither Duncan nor Bowen did.

[midnightpulp]

95 Hakeem The Dream could be considered the greatest basketball player of all time. In the playoffs, he went through the league's top 4 players (Malone, Barkley, Robinson, and Shaq) in one playoff run, putting up ridiculous numbers.

I've never seen a player as good as 95 Hakeem. Not 3 peat Shaq, first 3 peat Jordan, or 03 Duncan.

It's no insult to Duncan to claim that he would get outclassed by 95 Hakeem. He outclassed everyone.

[ezau]

Duncan vs. Olajuwon discussion is close. Back in 03, Duncan was really, really quick for his size. His post game was already complete and he was just as effective as Olajuwon at the defensive end. What's very clear is that a prime Jordan would rip apart a prime Kobe like a rag doll.

[Ignignokt]

Duncan's offensive rep >>> Hakeems.

Hakeem was a better defensive players.

But Duncan would also eat his lunch.

Btw.. Duncan would have busted the same moves on robinson.

[Booharv]

Any Spurs fan that says 94-95 Olajuwon isn't better than Duncan is lying, deluded, or a homer. Olajuwon torched three top 50 centers in back to back years in playoff series. He outscored Shaq all 4 games in the Finals en route to averaging 33 ppg in a sweep, he torched Ewing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_NBA_Finals#Olajuwon_vs._Ewing), and he torched D-Rob. 1994-95 Hakeem is the best big man I have ever seen, and unlike Shaq and Duncan he did it directly against top 50 guys who had like 30 combined All Defensive team selections. He averaged 33.0 points on .531 shooting from the field, 10.3 rebounds, 4.5 assists, 1.2 steals and 2.81 blocks per game in the 1995 NBA Playoffs against four 59+ win teams.

[Ignignokt]

Oh yeah..

Duncan schooled a Prime Shaq.

Shaq of 99 and 03 > 95 shaq.


Shaq of 03 would have given Olajuwon a pink sock.

[Booharv]

Oh yeah..

Duncan schooled a Prime Shaq.

Shaq of 99 and 03 > 95 shaq.


Shaq of 03 would have given Olajuwon a pink sock.

So Shaq was too slow to stay with Olajuwon when he was young but when he gained 40 lbs then he would have been quick enough?

[Ignignokt]

Any Spurs fan that says 94-95 Olajuwon isn't better than Duncan is lying, deluded, or a homer. Olajuwon torched three top 50 centers in back to back years in playoff series. He outscored Shaq all 4 games in the Finals en route to averaging 33 ppg in a sweep, he torched Ewing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_NBA_Finals#Olajuwon_vs._Ewing), and he torched D-Rob. 1994-95 Hakeem is the best big man I have ever seen, and unlike Shaq and Duncan he did it directly against top 50 guys who had like 30 combined All Defensive team selections. He averaged 33.0 points on .531 shooting from the field, 10.3 rebounds, 4.5 assists, 1.2 steals and 2.81 blocks per game in the 1995 NBA Playoffs against four 59+ win teams.

Olajuwon could do what he did because he had perimeter help. A year later, he got his ass stuffed by Shawn Fucking Kemp.

Shawn f'in Kemp.

[Ignignokt]

So Shaq was too slow to stay with Olajuwon when he was young but when he gained 40 lbs then he would have been quick enough?

Oh shit. Is this like football or something. Shaq is only going to play DL while Olajuwon plays OL.

Lets get real. Any O Olajuwon had would have been negated by the tandem of Horry and Shaq.

Shit.. Shaq would have made Olajuwon foul out, quick.

[Shastafarian]

We're not talking about one year or even two. The original discussion was who was better in their prime. How long was Hakeem's prime even?

[Ignignokt]

People forget that Hakeem and Snaq had similar numbers in the Finals. Hakeem had a better team.


Hardaway and Scott << Drexler and Thorpe.

[Cane]

Would it be a stretch to say a prime Duncan would be the best defender of the guys Hakeem faced? Tim would also be able to pull the Dream away from the paint with his range. Duncan probably has the best range and overall offensive skillset of the legends Hakeem faced against as well.

The legends Hakeem faced to get his ring, while a remarkable achievement to beat them, still put up pretty good numbers themselves albeit in a losing effort. Duncan can play face-up with range and back to the basket. TD doesn't seem to go for fakes and the stuff that Hakeem used to "bamboozle" the Admiral.

Still going with the Dream though since he won in the golden era of NBA bigs. But when it comes to the complete career ya gotta go with Duncan.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

People forget that Hakeem and Snaq had similar numbers in the Finals. Hakeem had a better team.


Hardaway and Scott << Drexler and Thorpe.


You're aware Otis Thorpe didn't even play in the 95 playoffs right?

[Ignignokt]

In other non related news.

Cane is a faggot.

[Booharv]

Oh shit. Is this like football or something. Shaq is only going to play DL while Olajuwon plays OL.

Lets get real. Any O Olajuwon had would have been negated by the tandem of Horry and Shaq.

Shit.. Shaq would have made Olajuwon foul out, quick.

Right because big, beefy muscle bound guys never pick up fouls when they're getting outquicked by guys 4x as fast as them. Shaq better pick up fouls because Hakeem will be blowing by him on the way to the rim for easy layups or nailing jumpers if Shaq plays off him. As for Shaq: Rick Smits, Mutombo, and whoever the Nets trotted out (I can't be bothered to check) versus Ewing, Robinson, and Shaq. Advantage: Hakeem x1 billion.

[TD 21]

Duncan's '03 playoff run accounted for the most win shares in a playoffs of all-time.

Duncan has a higher regular season and playoff efficiency rating.

Duncan has accounted for more playoff and (he'll pass Olajuwon early next season) regular season win shares.

I'm telling you all, many have either forgotten or flat out don't know just how ridiculously dominant Duncan was.

[JoeTait75]

Right because big, beefy muscle bound guys never pick up fouls when they're getting outquicked by guys 4x as fast as them. Shaq better pick up fouls because Hakeem will be blowing by him on the way to the rim for easy layups or nailing jumpers if Shaq plays off him. As for Shaq: Rick Smits, Mutombo, and whoever the Nets trotted out (I can't be bothered to check) versus Ewing, Robinson, and Shaq. Advantage: Hakeem x1 billion.

Todd McCullough, Aaron Williams, one of the Collins brothers... ?

I don't even want to know what prime Dream would have done to that New Jersey backcourt.

[dirk4mvp]

Aren't you 18? How can you remember things from 94?

I don't see why not, considering djohn2008 is about the same age but he "vividly remembers" the Rockets winning back to back. He even cited the OJ being chased in a Bronco as a reference!

[djohn2oo8]

Duncan's '03 playoff run accounted for the most win shares in a playoffs of all-time.

Duncan has a higher regular season and playoff efficiency rating.

Duncan has accounted for more playoff and (he'll pass Olajuwon early next season) regular season win shares.

I'm telling you all, many have either forgotten or flat out don't know just how ridiculously dominant Duncan was.

No denying Duncan was dominant, but if you look at wins and rings, you also have to look at eras as well

[baseline bum]

Why does this thread get started every month? Prime Olajuwon was like a meld of Prime Duncan and Prime Robinson, and easily one of the most complete players all time. Olajuwon went kicking and screaming into his old age (watching him and Barkley play together at the end was sickening), but in his prime he was as complete a bigman as I have seen. Maybe Abdul-Jabbar in the 70s or 60s Wilt could have a word here too, but I'm going on what I have seen on ESPN Classic and not knowledge from seeing him day in and day out from the pre-Magic days.

[Ignignokt]

You're aware Otis Thorpe didn't even play in the 95 playoffs right?

Oh shit.. Horry.

[midnightpulp]

Any Spurs fan that says 94-95 Olajuwon isn't better than Duncan is lying, deluded, or a homer. Olajuwon torched three top 50 centers in back to back years in playoff series. He outscored Shaq all 4 games in the Finals en route to averaging 33 ppg in a sweep, he torched Ewing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_NBA_Finals#Olajuwon_vs._Ewing), and he torched D-Rob. 1994-95 Hakeem is the best big man I have ever seen, and unlike Shaq and Duncan he did it directly against top 50 guys who had like 30 combined All Defensive team selections. He averaged 33.0 points on .531 shooting from the field, 10.3 rebounds, 4.5 assists, 1.2 steals and 2.81 blocks per game in the 1995 NBA Playoffs against four 59+ win teams.

Yeah, that's pretty sick. I don't think any other player went through the kind of gauntlet Hakeem had to face in 94-95. He beat Malone and Stockton, Barkley, Robinson (who had one of the best regular seasons in NBA history. We all Spurs fans thought the title was locked up for us that year, thinking no one was going to deny the Admiral), and Shaq. All the aforementioned players were considered the best in the league along with Hakeem himself.

Any Spurs fan claiming that peak Duncan is better than Hakeem is like Lakerfan saying peak Kobe is better than peak Jordan.

[djohn2oo8]

I don't see why not, considering djohn2008 is about the same age but he "vividly remembers" the Rockets winning back to back. He even cited the OJ being chased in a Bronco as a reference!

I remember plenty, and even if I didn't, I would rather not remember my team winning than see my team so close to the gold, only to lose

[dirk4mvp]

I remember plenty, and even if I didn't, I would rather not remember my team winning than see my team so close to the gold, only to lose

I saw my team win gold in the summer of 08, like any other red blooded American.

[Booharv]

The legends Hakeem faced to get his ring, while a remarkable achievement to beat them, still put up pretty good numbers themselves albeit in a losing effort.


Ewing averaged 18.0 ppg on 36.4% shooting and was completely taken out of his game by Olajuwon. He was outscored in all 7 by Hakeem. Robinson suffered as well with three poor shooting games (combined 18-48 in those games). O'Neal was the only one who put up good numbers. He was still swept and outscored in every game.

[djohn2oo8]

Why does this thread get started every month? Prime Olajuwon was like a meld of Prime Duncan and Prime Robinson, and easily one of the most complete players all time. Olajuwon went kicking and screaming into his old age (watching him and Barkley play together at the end was sickening), but in his prime he was as complete a bigman as I have seen. Maybe Abdul-Jabbar in the 70s could have a word here too, but I'm going on what I have seen on ESPN Classic and not knowledge from seeing him day in and day out from the pre-Magic days.

Add Pippen to that Toxic mix of Barkley and Hakeem. Clyde retired because he hated Barkley, Barkley and Pippen hated each other, and the city of Houston ended up hating Pippen

[djohn2oo8]

I saw my team win gold in the summer of 08, like any other red blooded American.

Still hurtin?

[Ignignokt]

Right because big, beefy muscle bound guys never pick up fouls when they're getting outquicked by guys 4x as fast as them. Shaq better pick up fouls because Hakeem will be blowing by him on the way to the rim for easy layups or nailing jumpers if Shaq plays off him. As for Shaq: Rick Smits, Mutombo, and whoever the Nets trotted out (I can't be bothered to check) versus Ewing, Robinson, and Shaq. Advantage: Hakeem x1 billion.



Shaq would have just gotten into hakeems head with all those dunks, and fouled him out first.

LA Horry can guard Hakeem better than Rocket Horry could Shaq.

After Horry in Houston.. you had Carl herrera and Pete Chilcutt.. ROFL!!!

Sorry guy.

[dirk4mvp]

Still hurtin?

From watching my team win gold? No.

[djohn2oo8]

Shaq would have just gotten into hakeems head with all those dunks, and fouled him out first.

LA Horry can guard Hakeem better than Rocket Horry could Shaq.

After Horry in Houston.. you had Carl herrera and Pete Chilcutt.. ROFL!!!

Sorry guy.

:lmao GTFO!!!

[Shastafarian]

Did Malone or Barkley guard Hakeem?

[TD 21]

Olajuwon was so great that he could never get to, let alone get past, Jordan. Meanwhile, Duncan twice went through O'Neal AND Bryant, including once after they were at the top. And he did it without a clear cut second star.

[djohn2oo8]

Olajuwon was so great that he could never get to, let alone get past, Jordan. Meanwhile, Duncan twice went through O'Neal AND Bryant, including once after they were at the top. And he did it without a clear cut second star.

You're pushing it now! If you use that logic, then Duncan wasn't that great because he never got through him either? Fucking idiot

[Cane]

In other non related news.

Cane is a faggot.

Haha the hurt is strong with this one but I don't even remember this guy. :toast


Ewing averaged 18.0 ppg on 36.4% shooting and was completely taken out of his game by Olajuwon. He was outscored in all 7 by Hakeem. Robinson suffered as well with three poor shooting games (combined 18-48 in those games). O'Neal was the only one who put up good numbers. He was still swept and outscored in every game.

Damn Ewing got schooled. Did Hakeem guard Malone?

[JoeTait75]

Olajuwon was so great that he could never get to, let alone get past, Jordan.

He was there in 1994 and '95.

Jordan apparently had other things to do in those years.

[djohn2oo8]

Jordan played in 95

[Ignignokt]

Ewing averaged 18.0 ppg on 36.4% shooting and was completely taken out of his game by Olajuwon. He was outscored in all 7 by Hakeem. Robinson suffered as well with three poor shooting games (combined 18-48 in those games). O'Neal was the only one who put up good numbers. He was still swept and outscored in every game.

Oh shit Robinson had a miserable 24 ppg.

And that's with Rodman sitting out the last 2, basically him guarding the bigs all by himself.

[TD 21]

You're pushing it now! If you use that logic, then Duncan wasn't that great because he never got through him either? Fucking idiot

I knew that would strike a cord. Duncan didn't have much of a chance, genius. He had one season in the league before Jordan retired.

He got there in '94 and '95...my point exactly. What coincided with those two years (at least the better part of them)?

[djohn2oo8]

1BLjWjc_eII

[Booharv]

Shaq would have just gotten into hakeems head with all those dunks, and fouled him out first.

LA Horry can guard Hakeem better than Rocket Horry could Shaq.

After Horry in Houston.. you had Carl herrera and Pete Chilcutt.. ROFL!!!

Sorry guy.

Hakeem's crazy successful arsenal of spin moves and up and unders probably fuck with Shaq's head way more than O'Neals King Kong like dunks. To quote Shaq:

"Hakeem has five moves, then four countermoves -- that gives him 20 moves." (http://www.nba.com/history/players/olajuwon_bio.html)

Again, if you're too slow to guard someone gaining 40 lbs is not the remedy.

[djohn2oo8]

I knew that would strike a chord. Duncan didn't have much of a chance, genius. He had one season in the league before Jordan retired.



By that logic, you say Hakeem won because Jordan retired, well Duncan won because Jordan retired as well

[TD 21]

We don't know that, though, because, again, Duncan only had one chance. Olajuwon had many chances, just couldn't get it done.

I never said Olajuwon won because Jordan retired. What I said was he never got to, let alone beat Jordan, the dominant force in his era. The other dominant force in the Duncan era was O'Neal/Bryant. Duncan got through them twice.

[midnightpulp]

Duncan's my fave player of all time. He's the clear player of the decade despite what the bullshit media says, a top 10 player in NBA history, and has had the best career since MJ.

But some of the Duncan homerism in this thread is approaching Kobe kid levels.

[midnightpulp]

Duncan's my fave player of all time. He's the clear player of the decade despite what the bullshit media says, a top 10 player in NBA history, and has had the best career since MJ.

But some of the Duncan homerism in this thread is approaching Kobe kid levels.

[blink]

spurs fans are so delusional... prime dream would eat prime duncan for breakfast. duncan's had to face a lazy fat shaq at worse. dream had to face much better competition/teams.

doesnt mean duncan didnt have a more prosperous career.

jordan/bulls got bent over by the magic, who got bent over by the rockets in 95.

[djohn2oo8]

We don't know that, though, because, again, Duncan only had one chance. Olajuwon had many chances, just couldn't get it done.

And Duncan could have gotten past Jordan? Wow your homerism levels are off the charts

[Shastafarian]

No one has answered the question of duration of Hakeem's prime.

[blink]

No one has answered the question of duration of Hakeem's prime.

he was pretty beast from 84-97 ...

[TD 21]

And Duncan could have gotten past Jordan? Wow your homerism levels are off the charts

Maybe. I think the '99 Spurs would have beat the Bulls, had they kept their '98 team mostly intact. People forget, they were vulnerable and ripe for the picking in '98. Running on fumes. The Pacers and the Jazz should have beaten them. I can't see the Bulls, a year older, beating the Spurs, who were one of the most underrated teams of all-time.

The point is Duncan got past the other dominant force of his era and he did so multiple times.

What homerism? Every time a Spurs fan doesn't concede that damn near anyone who was half decent was better than Duncan, other fans flip out. There's ample evidence to suggest Duncan was the better player. You may not agree, that's fine, but don't act like I'm just grasping at straws. It's not like I'm saying Ewing was better than Olajuwon, or even Robinson.

[Tmac&Luther]

Hakeem in his prime was as good as anyone, but career was I still say Duncan > Hakeem because his prime was a lot longer than 2 years.

The biggest myth is sports. :lol

I love when people try to say Hakeem was only dominant for two years....

More like he was only surrounded by great teammates for 2 years.

Pull up Hakeem's #s and show me where his prime only lasted 2 seasons. Given the same surrounding cast as Duncan...Hakeem would literally take a shit all over Duncan. He was a bad bad man, and arguably the most complete player the game has ever seen.


No one has answered the question of duration of Hakeem's prime.

:lol see above.

Hakeem had MANY years more dominant than Duncan, but the dude can't help it if he was surrounded by crap most of his career. LMFAO...is this now the argument that SA fans use. :rollin

[JoeTait75]

No one has answered the question of duration of Hakeem's prime.

Judging by his performance in the 1986 Finals I'd say his prime was a good ten years.

Check that- judging by his performance in the 1983 NCAA Tournament his prime was about 13 years.

[djohn2oo8]

Maybe. I think the '99 Spurs would have beat the Bulls, had they kept their '98 team mostly intact. People forget, they were vulnerable and ripe for the picking in '98. Running on fumes. The Pacers and the Jazz should have beaten them. I can't see the Bulls, a year older, beating the Spurs, who were one of the most underrated teams of all-time (the '99 team).

The point is Duncan got past the other dominant force of his era and he did so multiple times.

What homerism? Every time a Spurs fan doesn't concede that damn near anyone who was half decent was better than Duncan, other fans flip out. There's ample evidence to suggest Duncan was the better player. You may not agree, that's fine, but don't act like I'm just grasping at straws. It's not like I'm saying Ewing was better than Olajuwon, or even Robinson.

And Hakeem didn't? Got past Barkley, Malone/Stockton, Robinson, etc...

[Shastafarian]

he was pretty beast from 84-97 ...

Ok. Was his 84-97 better than Duncan's 97-2010?

[Booharv]

No one has answered the question of duration of Hakeem's prime.

1993 to 1995 during which he was better than any big man I've ever seen. If you want him to play Duncan in a tournament where they play once a year for ten years I guess this is relevant. If its heads up in their primes its irrelevant.

[Booharv]

Hakeem really hit his prime when he started getting into Islam and learned to be more unselfish before the 1992-93 season he admits this in his book.

[TD 21]

And Hakeem didn't? Got past Barkley, Malone/Stockton, Robinson, etc...

They weren't the dominant force of his era and you know it. Stop playing games. If you disagree that Duncan was better, fine, but there's no denying this: He got past the other dominant force of his era two times, while Olajuwon never even got to the dominant force of his era.

[blink]

Ok. Was his 84-97 better than Duncan's 97-2010?

statistically? i dont know... and i dont want to look up numbers. im guessing from your post that it's not? or at least the same.

but is that really the argument? the point here is that prime dream would destroy prime duncan.

[Shastafarian]

:lol see above.

Hakeem had MANY years more dominant than Duncan, but the dude can't help it if he was surrounded by crap most of his career. LMFAO...is this now the argument that SA fans use. :rollin

:rollin

[Booharv]

They weren't the dominant force of his era and you know it. Stop playing games. If you disagree that Duncan was better, fine, but there's no denying this: He got past the other dominant force of his era two times, while Olajuwon never even got to the dominant force of his era.

No one's better than Jordan, quit wasting people's time.

[midnightpulp]

No one has answered the question of duration of Hakeem's prime.

He had a good 12 years of high level play. Can't fault Hakeem that the late 80s, early 90s Rockets sucked ass outside of him. Hakeem is one of those players who should have a couple more titles. But there was no way Houston was going to compete roster wise in the no-cap era with the likes of the Lakers and Celtics.

In the 80s, when he had a good second player in Ralph Sampson (before he got injured), the Rockets made the Finals.

[TD 21]

No one's better than Jordan, quit wasting people's time.

Did I say anyone was? You're obviously some not so closet Olajuwon fan, to the point where you're even referencing his book.

[Shastafarian]

statistically? i dont know... and i dont want to look up numbers. im guessing from your post that it's not? or at least the same.They're similar based on per minute stats.


but is that really the argument?You just told me that was Hakeem's prime. So, yeah.

the point here is that prime dream would destroy prime duncan.lol

[Booharv]

:rollin


1993 to 1995 during which he was better than any big man I've ever seen. If you want him to play Duncan in a tournament where they play once a year for ten years I guess this is relevant. If its heads up in their primes its irrelevant.

[Tmac&Luther]

Ok. Was his 84-97 better than Duncan's 97-2010?

individually.....umm yeah.


If his team didn't get injury riddled and cracked out in the mid 80's this wouldn't even be a discussion. Too many people blame Hakeem for his lack of talent around him. Give me the players that surrounded Duncan and I'd easily take Hakeem over him.

When he had a decent team he upsetted one of the best teams in history..and then everything went into the crapper until he got the right talent around him.

Hakeem was a better offensive AND especially defensive player than Duncan.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

In 1992 Dream had Kenny Smith, Maxwell and Thorpe and didn't even make the playoffs. It's pretty obvious his true prime wasn't till 1993.

[Booharv]

Did I say anyone was? You're obviously some not so closet Olajuwon fan, to the point where you're even referencing his book.

Yes, I can be a Spurs fan and still have respect for opponents. Be a fan of some of them even. Became an Olajuwon fan after he got older and was no longer a threat. Mostly because people forgot how great he was. You've never liked a non Spur?

[TD 21]

Right. Every half decent player in the history of the game was apparently better than Duncan, yet somehow he managed to compile a resume that's greater than all but a handful of players in the history of the game. He did it without a bloated payroll, without another clear cut hall-of-fame player playing at the top of his game, etc. So, again I ask: How did he do all this? Luck? Or was he just better than the vast majority of people gave him credit for being?

Sure, I have Booharv. I liked Olajuwon, Robinson and Stockton, but my favorite was Malone. But you don't hear me claiming Malone was vastly superior to Olajuwon. I know where he stands; just like I know where Olajuwon and Duncan stand.

[Shastafarian]

Sleepy Floyd, Ralph Sampson, Otis Thorpe, Kenny Smith, Vernon Maxwell, Robert Horry, Sam Cassell...

All these guys are shit.

Oh he also missed the playoffs in 1992

But I agree. He's far and away better than Duncan.

[Booharv]

I remember Bill Simmons included some quotes several Lakers said about Hakeem in his Book of Basketball after the 86 WCF that were extremely embarrassingly fellatio like. WIll look them up...

[Tmac&Luther]

:rollin

Laugh all you want......you don't know shit about the talent Hakeem had to play with.

He came in and only his second year he went to the finals after beating one of the best teams in NBA history...then the wheels fell off.

:lol LMAO at all these SA fans who actually try to act like Duncan didn't have better surrounding talent over the course of his career during a much weaker era.

Hakeem WAS THE BETTER PLAYER

Deny it all you want, but through some magical alternate universe if both players could enter the same draft....guess who G.M's would take first? Ill give you a hint, it wouldn't be Duncan....and that's no shot against Duncan.

[Shastafarian]

In 1992 Dream had Kenny Smith, Maxwell and Thorpe and didn't even make the playoffs. It's pretty obvious his true prime wasn't till 1993.

His teammates were shit I tell ya!

[djohn2oo8]

Laugh all you want......you don't know shit about the talent Hakeem had to play with.

He came in and only his second year he went to the finals after beating one of the best teams in NBA history...then the wheels fell off.

:lol LMAO at all these SA fans who actually try to act like Duncan didn't have better surrounding talent over the course of his career during a much weaker era.

Hakeem WAS THE BETTER PLAYER

Deny it all you want, but through some magical alternate universe if both players could enter the same draft....guess who G.M's would take first? Ill give you a hint, it wouldn't be Duncan....and that's no shot against Duncan.

Just chill, this really isn't a debate..All due respect to Duncan, but it isn't a debate

[Shastafarian]

Sleepy Floyd, Ralph Sampson, Otis Thorpe, Kenny Smith, Vernon Maxwell, Robert Horry, Sam Cassell...



Laugh all you want......you don't know shit about the talent Hakeem had to play with.

He came in and only his second year he went to the finals after beating one of the best teams in NBA history...then the wheels fell off.

:lol LMAO at all these SA fans who actually try to act like Duncan didn't have better surrounding talent over the course of his career during a much weaker era.

Hakeem WAS THE BETTER PLAYER

Deny it all you want, but through some magical alternate universe if both players could enter the same draft....guess who G.M's would take first? Ill give you a hint, it wouldn't be Duncan....and that's no shot against Duncan.

[blink]

You just told me that was Hakeem's prime.

let me rephrase it for you. hakeem at his very best beats out duncan at his very best.

duncan had many years of high level play, so did the dream.

[Booharv]

Right. Every half decent player in the history of the game was apparently better than Duncan, yet somehow he managed to compile a resume that's greater than all but a handful of players in the history of the game. He did it without a bloated payroll, without another clear cut hall-of-fame player playing at the top of his game, etc. So, again I ask: How did he do all this? Luck? Or was he just better than the vast majority of people gave him credit for being?

Sure, I have Booharv. I liked Olajuwon, Robinson and Stockton, but my favorite was Malone. But you don't hear me claiming Malone was vastly superior to Olajuwon. I know where he stands; just like I know where Olajuwon and Duncan stand.

Duncan's the best player since Jordan retired. I give him a slight nod over Shaq because of his under-rated team defense and the fact that he doesn't need a closer to avoid the Hack-A-Shaq. Shaq was better scorer, and required more attention. Duncan's great, he's my favorite player. And in no universe real or imagined was Hakeem a "half decent player".

[Nahtanoj]

Hakeem Olajuwon would beat Tim Duncan one on one.

[Shastafarian]

I guess Duncan will have to live with the fact his team has never missed the playoffs or finished with a losing record.

[midnightpulp]

statistically? i dont know... and i dont want to look up numbers. im guessing from your post that it's not? or at least the same.

but is that really the argument? the point here is that prime dream would destroy prime duncan.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Homering blindly for Hakeem is no better than homering blindly for Duncan.

No big man would "destroy" prime Duncan. 3 peat Shaq couldn't do it. I agree that peak Hakeem would outplay Duncan, but he wouldn't dominate him.

Let's say each player had the exact same coach with the exact same role players. Hakeem would probably go 30-12-3 on 50+ shooting. And Duncan would probably 25ppg-12-2 with a similar shooting percentage. Both are equal passers in my opinion, so they both get the role players equally involved to the point where it's a wash.

At the end of the day, Hakeem is the difference, but doesn't destroy Duncan.

[djohn2oo8]

I guess Duncan will have to live with the fact his team has never missed the playoffs or finished with a losing record.

When has Duncan ever been surrounded by shit?

[Shastafarian]

When has Duncan ever been surrounded by shit?

Which years was Hakeem surrounded by shit? I'd like specific years.

[blink]

ok, not destroy but beat out duncan. prime dream > prime duncan

[Tmac&Luther]

Sleepy Floyd, Ralph Sampson, Otis Thorpe, Kenny Smith, Vernon Maxwell, Robert Horry, Sam Cassell...

All these guys are shit.

Oh he also missed the playoffs in 1992

But I agree. He's far and away better than Duncan.

Ralph Sampson peeked with a 2nd year Hakeem Olajuwon....they went to the finals....then he was hurt.

Maxwell was a gunner and a complete head case, Smith was a career cast away, Robert Horry was a young player...and so was Cassell...not the players you remember them and Hakeem won a ring with Thorpe, so what's your point jackass. :rollin Do you really want me to pull up the caliber of players that Duncan played with?

[baseline bum]

Laugh all you want......you don't know shit about the talent Hakeem had to play with.

He came in and only his second year he went to the finals after beating one of the best teams in NBA history...then the wheels fell off.

:lol LMAO at all these SA fans who actually try to act like Duncan didn't have better surrounding talent over the course of his career during a much weaker era.

Hakeem WAS THE BETTER PLAYER

Deny it all you want, but through some magical alternate universe if both players could enter the same draft....guess who G.M's would take first? Ill give you a hint, it wouldn't be Duncan....and that's no shot against Duncan.

Rocket fan is so full of shit when he talks about Duncan playing in a weaker era. After Kareem's retirement, most of the talent was in the Eastern Conference, and Houston never played Chicago anyways.

[djohn2oo8]

Which years was Hakeem surrounded by shit? I'd like specific years.

91-92, 92-93, 93-94 (still won title)

90-91, going back into the late 80's

[TD 21]

I never called Olajuwon "half decent". I'm just making a point that people always pull this with Duncan. Who the fuck was he better than? And how did he do what he did if he really wasn't that great? That's the overriding sentiment I get from a lot of people.

Taking one over the other is one thing, but anyone pretending that Olajuwon would destroy Duncan is downright delusional. Nobody destroyed Duncan, not even prime O'Neal, who was probably the most dominant player in the history of the game. Not the best, but most dominant.

[Shastafarian]

Hakeem, in his "prime", never played on a team that had less than four guys average double digit points.

[djohn2oo8]

Hakeem, in his "prime", never played on a team that had less than four guys average double digit points.

So, he played with guys like David Robinson, Stephen Jackson, Steve Kerr, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, should I go on?

[Shastafarian]

Duncan, in his prime, has played on 7 teams where less than four guys averaged double digits in points.

[Shastafarian]

So, he played with guys like David Robinson, Stephen Jackson, Steve Kerr, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, should I go on?

Steve Kerr :rollin

Please do go on. You'll come up with similar quality to the guys Hakeem played with.

[Tmac&Luther]

Which years was Hakeem surrounded by shit? I'd like specific years.

How about you compare after the "twin towers" years to the first NBA championship of Hakeem....and then compare that to the caliber of players that Duncan has been surrounded by pretty much HIS ENTIRE CAREER

Oh what's this....now we're talking about the quality of teams instead of the number of years Hakeem was at "prime form", because somebody must've actually looked up Hakeem's #s and realized his prime form didn't just last two years. :lmao

Again the biggest myth in sports..."Hakeem was only great for two seasons". Hakeem #s knock Duncan's dick in the dirt. At 33 Hakeem was averaging 27 ppg, 11 rpg, and 3bpg (BTW a statistical year that Duncan has never had at ANY age)...the same age Duncan played at last year when everybody said he was starting to show his age. :wakeup

But, but, but...his prime and greatness only last 2 seasons. :lmao

[Shastafarian]

7 > 0

[djohn2oo8]

Steve Kerr :rollin

Please do go on. You'll come up with similar quality to the guys Hakeem played with.

If you don't remember, the guy was pretty fucking clutch

[Tmac&Luther]

7 > 0

Umm, what's 7>0

[baseline bum]

If you don't remember, the guy was pretty fucking clutch

In one quarter of one game of his entire Spurs career.

[Shastafarian]

Both players at age 33 per 36 minutes

Hakeem: 24.9 PPG 51.4% 10.1 RPG 2.7 BPG 3.3 APG

Duncan: 20.6 PPG 51.8% 11.6 RPG 1.7 BPG 3.6 APG

Hakeem was clearly far and away better

[djohn2oo8]

In one quarter of one game of his entire Spurs career.

did it not help?

[Shastafarian]

Hakeem, in his "prime", never played on a team that had less than four guys average double digit points.


Duncan, in his prime, has played on 7 teams where less than four guys averaged double digits in points.


Umm, what's 7>0

[ynh]

What the guy above said.. Vernon was a low percentage chucker.. fucking Sleepy Floyd? He had two decent seasons.. Kenny smith was a fucking role player.. Sam Cassell sure as hell wasn't Sam from the Bucks.. and Horry .. the damn rockets tried to freaking trade him.. the guy wasn't all world Bob at that point either. Thorpe was good I'll give you that though.

The nba had so much more talent and the league was so much tougher day in and day out.. anyone saying Olajuwon wasn't a better player in his prime is either a homer or just going off stats and never actually watched the games.

[Tmac&Luther]

Both players at age 33 per 36 minutes

Hakeem: 24.9 PPG 51.4% 10.1 RPG 2.7 BPG 3.3 APG

Duncan: 20.6 PPG 51.8% 11.6 RPG 1.7 BPG 3.6 APG

Hakeem was clearly far and away better

:lmao Oh no you didn't :lmao

Oh shit :lmao

You really went "per" when comparing two all time great vet players :rollin Oh shit. Like Duncan has great depth behing him that's costing him minutes. :lol we're not talking about a proven player vs a backup here dumbass. :lmao

[djohn2oo8]

What the guy above said.. Vernon was a low percentage chucker.. fucking Sleepy Floyd? He had two decent seasons.. Kenny smith was a fucking role player.. Sam Cassell sure as hell wasn't Sam from the Bucks.. and Horry .. the damn rockets tried to freaking trade him.. the guy wasn't all world Bob at that point either. Thorpe was good I'll give you that though.

The nba had so much more talent and the league was so much tougher day in and day out.. anyone saying Olajuwon wasn't a better player in his prime is either a homer or just going off stats and never actually watched the games.

This

[midnightpulp]

Duncan, in his prime, has played on 7 teams where less than four guys averaged double digits in points.

Pop's system. Where great scorers go to die. Says alot that Duncan could put his 23-25 a game with other players never really going wild and still have the success he's had. Sadly, Duncan's going to be one of those players bitten by revisionist history. I could see the arguments 20 years from now. "How is he a top player of all time when he's never averaged over 25 points a game!"

Give Duncan the triangle and he averages 25+ for his career.

[ynh]

And jesus stop fucking leaving out steals like it isn't some type of important stat.. Hakeem is also the only player to retire in the top ten in blocks and steals.

[baseline bum]

did it not help?

Yeah, it helped in that game. Otherwise, Kerr was horrible as the backup PG in 99 and had to be replaced by Terry Porter, and then he was a non-factor as a third-string PG in 03. He's easily the most overrated player in franchise history.

[baseline bum]

But if we want to talk about one game, Kenny Smith just mops the floor with Kerr.

[Shastafarian]

Again the biggest myth in sports..."Hakeem was only great for two seasons". Hakeem #s knock Duncan's in the dirt. At 33 Hakeem was averaging 27 ppg, 11 rpg, and 3bpg (BTW a statistical year that Duncan has never had at ANY age)...the same age Duncan played at last year when everybody said he was starting to show his age. :wakeup



:lmao Oh no you didn't :lmao

Oh shit :lmao

You really went "per" when comparing two all time great vet players :rollin Oh shit. Like Duncan has great depth behing him that's costing him minutes. :lol we're not talking about a proven player vs a backup here dumbass. :lmao

You think Duncan wants his minutes limited? Ever wonder why Hakeem fell off a fucking cliff (played 47-50-44 games at 35, 36, and 37 yrs)? He played so many minutes that his body got destroyed. I went to per 36 to compare their numbers dipshit. One more thing Duncan will have to live with I guess.

[Tmac&Luther]

Rocket fan is so full of shit when he talks about Duncan playing in a weaker era. After Kareem's retirement, most of the talent was in the Eastern Conference, and Houston never played Chicago anyways.

Umm, pull up Olajuwon's record against Jordan's bulls and them procede to shut the fuck up...it's a losing argument if you want to save time

Also Barkley, Malone, and Robinson were better big men in one conference than Duncan has ever faced...and that's leaving out Shaq and Ewing in the East. :sleep

[Shastafarian]

Pop's system. Where great scorers go to die. Says alot that Duncan could put his 23-25 a game with other players never really going wild and still have the success he's had. Sadly, Duncan's going to be one of those players bitten by revisionist history. I could see the arguments 20 years from now. "How is he a top player of all time when he's never averaged over 25 points a game!"

Give Duncan the triangle and he averages 25+ for his career.

Doesn't really matter. I was using those numbers to show that this stuff about Hakeem never playing with good players is horseshit.

[Shastafarian]

Umm, pull up Olajuwon's record against Jordan's bulls and them procede to shut the fuck up...it's a losing argument if you want to save time

Also Barkly, Malone, and Robinson were better big men in one conference than Duncan has ever faced...and that's leaving out Shaq and Ewing in the East. :sleep

Hakeem guarded Malone and Barkley?

[djohn2oo8]

Rocket fan is so full of shit when he talks about Duncan playing in a weaker era. After Kareem's retirement, most of the talent was in the Eastern Conference, and Houston never played Chicago anyways.

Jordan said himself that Houston would have been the toughest matchup for them

[Many PackYao]

Olajuwon>Duncan in skillset/one on one
Better career due to better supporting casts Duncan>Olajuwon

Parker/Ginobili/>Smith/Maxwell/ Drexler (Rocket years only) or any former rocket guard during Olajuwon era in that case.

Olajuwon never had a backup center or PF the caliber of David Robinson.

[Shastafarian]

I'm goin to sleep. I'll leave rocketfan with this

4 > 2 faggots

:lol

[Booharv]

I agree with Hakeem and others who say that he really peaked before the 1992-93 season and became a more unselfish player. His assist numbers back this up, but this is from Bill Simmons' book and includes quotes from Lakers' after the 1986 WCF. Keep in mind Kareem was like 38 and not in his prime but note the glowing terms used here by several HOFers:

"Houston won Games 2, 3 and 4 by 10, 8, and 10, with Hakeem scoring 75 in Games 3 and 4. Pat Riley later lamented, “We tried everything. We put four bodies on him. We helped from different angles. He’s just a great player.”"
Here's a long section from that book from after the 1986 season:

"Magic decided, “In terms of raw athletic ability, Akeem is the best I’ve ever seen.” Mitch Kupchak summed it up best: “I can compare him to, maybe, Alvin Robertson in terms of being able to do everything. That tells you something, since Robertson is a guard. I’ve never seen anyone that strong, that quick, that relentless and who also happens to be seven feet tall.”
Thank you, Mitch! You just did my job for me. Hakeem finished his coming-out party by averaging a 25–12–3 (blocks) in the ’86 Finals and holding his own against the greatest slew of big men in NBA history. During a must-win Game 5 where tag-team partner Ralph Sampson was ejected for starting a brawl, an inspired Hakeem exploded for 32 points, 14 rebounds and 8 assists. Put it this way: If I did my “Who has the highest trade value?” column that summer, Hakeem would have finished first even after Jordan’s 63-point game in Boston."

Simmons makes one of his greatest "what ifs" in NBA history what if the 1986 Rockets hadn't fallen apart due to drug use and Sampson's injuries. He argues they were the Lakers kryptonite and the Sampson turnaround shot made the series seem like a Cinderella story when they really beat the Lakers brains out.

I love Duncan but I would not like see him go up against a prime Hakeem. The 1995 WCF traumatized me for years. Maybe he'd prove me wrong but I don't think anyone stops Hakeem.

[Shastafarian]

Olajuwon never had a backup center or PF the caliber of David Robinson.

I know I said I'm going to sleep but this made me laugh

[midnightpulp]

I agree with Hakeem and others who say that he really peaked before the 1992-93 season and became a more unselfish player. His assist numbers back this up, but this is from Bill Simmons' book and includes quotes from Lakers' after the 1986 WCF. Keep in mind Kareem was like 38 and not in his prime but note the glowing terms used here by several HOFers:

"Houston won Games 2, 3 and 4 by 10, 8, and 10, with Hakeem scoring 75 in Games 3 and 4. Pat Riley later lamented, “We tried everything. We put four bodies on him. We helped from different angles. He’s just a great player.”"
Here's a long section from that book from after the 1986 season:

"Magic decided, “In terms of raw athletic ability, Akeem is the best I’ve ever seen.” Mitch Kupchak summed it up best: “I can compare him to, maybe, Alvin Robertson in terms of being able to do everything. That tells you something, since Robertson is a guard. I’ve never seen anyone that strong, that quick, that relentless and who also happens to be seven feet tall.”
Thank you, Mitch! You just did my job for me. Hakeem finished his coming-out party by averaging a 25–12–3 (blocks) in the ’86 Finals and holding his own against the greatest slew of big men in NBA history. During a must-win Game 5 where tag-team partner Ralph Sampson was ejected for starting a brawl, an inspired Hakeem exploded for 32 points, 14 rebounds and 8 assists. Put it this way: If I did my “Who has the highest trade value?” column that summer, Hakeem would have finished first even after Jordan’s 63-point game in Boston."

Simmons makes one of his greatest "what ifs" in NBA history what if the 1986 Rockets hadn't fallen apart due to drug use and Sampson's injuries. He argues they were the Lakers kryptonite and the Sampson turnaround shot made the series seem like a Cinderella story when they really beat the Lakers brains out.

I love Duncan but I would not like see him go up against a prime Hakeem. The 1995 WCF traumatized me for years. Maybe he'd prove me wrong but I don't think anyone stops Hakeem.

Great post.

[djohn2oo8]

I'm goin to sleep. I'll leave rocketfan with this

4 > 2 faggots

:lol

But of course, when you have a better supporting cast, you usually win more games

[baseline bum]

Umm, pull up Olajuwon's record against Jordan's bulls and them procede to shut the fuck up...it's a losing argument if you want to save time

Also Barkly, Malone, and Robinson were better big men in one conference than Duncan has ever faced...and that's leaving out Shaq and Ewing in the East. :sleep

Get the fuck out of here, ignorant Rocket fan. No way any of those are tougher outs than the 3-peat Lakers with Shaq and Kobe. I could give a shit about regular season records. David Robinson used to own the Bulls in the regular season, but it'd be pretty fucking stupid to act like that'd extrapolate to titles against them.

[Tmac&Luther]

You think Duncan wants his minutes limited? Ever wonder why Hakeem fell off a fucking cliff (played 47-50-44 games at 35, 36, and 37 yrs)? He played so many minutes that his body got destroyed. I went to per 36 to compare their numbers dipshit. One more thing Duncan will have to live with I guess.

:lol How the hell did Olajuwon "fall off a cliff" :lmao

The guy at the age of 36 put up 19pp, 9.6rpb, and 2.5bpg....which is better than what Duncan did at 33 (now give me the "per" :lmao)

I hate to tell you this, but once big men fall they tend to fall fast. Give a alltime great props for lasting as long as he did, which is MUCH longer than Duncan will ever last.

[Booharv]

As for my Hakeem love, I've read a couple of non Spurs related NBA books and am a fan of the NBA in general. Breaks of the Game by David Halberstam is probably my favorite sports book and its about the Blazers from 30 years ago of all things.

[djohn2oo8]

Get the fuck out of here, ignorant Rocket fan. No way any of those are tougher outs than the 3-peat Lakers with Shaq and Kobe. I could give a shit about regular season records. David Robinson used to own the Bulls in the regular season, but it'd be pretty fucking stupid to act like that'd extrapolate to titles against them.

:lmao No home court in 94-95, down 3-1 a couple of times, get the fuck out of here

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Lasting long is why I consider Kareem far and away the best big of all time because of how long he maintained a high level of play.

[Many PackYao]

I know I said I'm going to sleep but this made me laugh

Well did Robinson not play second fiddle to Duncan?

[Ignignokt]

:lol How the hell did Olajuwon "fall off a cliff" :lmao

The guy at the age of 36 put up 19pp, 9.6rpb, and 2.5bpg....which is better than what Duncan did at 33 (now give me the "per" :lmao)

I hate to tell you this, but once big men fall they tend to fall fast. Give a alltime great props for lasting as long as he did, which is MUCH longer than Duncan will ever last.

Rofl!

Duncan was dominant for a longer amount of time, was in more playoff games and took more responsibility earlier on in his carreer.

[baseline bum]

:lmao No home court in 94-95, down 3-1 a couple of times, get the fuck out of here

And no titles for those players until Robinson's in 1999.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

:lmao No home court in 94-95, down 3-1 a couple of times, get the fuck out of here


Don't ignore the fact Barkley and Majerle started getting drunk every night once they took a 3-1 lead. Houston needed plenty of help from Phoenix to win that series.

[Tmac&Luther]

Get the fuck out of here, ignorant Rocket fan. No way any of those are tougher outs than the 3-peat Lakers with Shaq and Kobe. I could give a shit about regular season records. David Robinson used to own the Bulls in the regular season, but it'd be pretty fucking stupid to act like that'd extrapolate to titles against them.

Oh I'm sorry.....I thought you were just talking about the talent at the big men positions. You're talking about ovrl talent. I'll be back tomorrow to own your ass on this. Shit if you're going to allow me to pull talent from every position you really lose. :lol

[baseline bum]

Oh I'm sorry.....I thought you were just talking about the talent at the big men positions. You're talking about ovrl talent. I'll be back tomorrow to own your ass on this. Shit if you're going to allow me to pull talent from every position you really lose. :lol

Shaq in the MVP-level years slaughters every bigman you can name from the 90s.

[djohn2oo8]

And no titles for those players until Robinson's in 1999.

lockout?

[Tmac&Luther]

Don't ignore the fact Barkley and Majerle started getting drunk every night once they took a 3-1 lead. Houston needed plenty of help from Phoenix to win that series.

Umm, getting drunk every night is not something you want to fall back on...and nice excuse for a team that blew a 3-1 lead. :rolleyes

[midnightpulp]

:lol How the hell did Olajuwon "fall off a cliff" :lmao

The guy at the age of 36 put up 19pp, 9.6rpb, and 2.5bpg....which is better than what Duncan did at 33 (now give me the "per" :lmao)

I hate to tell you this, but once big men fall they tend to fall fast. Give a alltime great props for lasting as long as he did, which is MUCH longer than Duncan will ever last.

I agree with Rocketfan in this thread that prime Hakeem>Duncan, but PER is useful here.

You just can't arbitrarily compare raw stats across the board when evaluating how two players match up. Duncan and Hakeem played in different eras on teams with different systems. Popovich's system is not very friendly to scoring.

[Booharv]

Thread title:"How would a prime Olajuwon fare against a prime Duncan?"

[djohn2oo8]

Umm, getting drunk every night is not something you want to fall back on...and nice excuse for a team that blew a 3-1 lead. :rolleyes

Well crack did ruin us in the 80's along with injuries. But crack fucked us up

[baseline bum]

lockout?

Come with an argument and not a troll.

[Tmac&Luther]

Shaq in the MVP-level years slaughters every bigman you can name from the 90s.

Umm...SHAQ WAS IN MVP LEVEL YEARS IN 95 AND OLAJUWON COMPLETELY BROKE HIS DICK OFF IN THE THEN MVP DAVID ROBINSON'S ASS.

Or did you forget about that. :lol

[djohn2oo8]

Umm, getting drunk every night is not something you want to fall back on...and nice excuse for a team that blew a 3-1 lead. :rolleyes

remember 3-1, "it's over"?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Umm, getting drunk every night is not something you want to fall back on...and nice excuse for a team that blew a 3-1 lead. :rolleyes


I'm not making an excuse, that series will forever be a stain on Barkley's career. My only point was that it's not like Houston stole that series from Phoenix, they gave it away.

[Tmac&Luther]

I'm not making an excuse, that series will forever be a stain on Barkley's career. My only point was that it's not like Houston stole that series from Phoenix, they gave it away.

They only gave away one game in that series...which was Barkley's missed FTs... Which Houston STILL won in overtime

Every other game, Houston earned and won those games, don't be a sore loser.

[Many PackYao]

remember 3-1, "it's over"?

I remember A.C. Green's virgin dumbass saying there is no way they would lose the series after going 3-1.
Suns choked series leads on the Rockets twice '94 & 95.:lol

[Booharv]

Hakeem had good teammates? What a lousy argument. Let's see the argument for his awesome teamates from the 1993-94 Rockets roster:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1994.html

No one averaging more than 14.0 ppg, Maxwell #2 option (Thorpe scored more points but a ton of those were from putbacks) drilling it at 38.9% from the floor and 29.8% from the 3 point land. Something called Chris Gent was their 4th leading scorer in the 24 games he played at 10.4 ppg. 2 guys besides Hakeem who played in more than 24 games averaged in double figures. Casell averaged 6 ppg in his rookie year. Ultra scrubs Scott Brooks and Carl Herrera are rotation players. Horry and Elie don't break 10 ppg or crack 30 minutes.

Tons of problems. The glass ain't half empty it's got a fucking quarter sized hole in the bottom of it.

[ynh]

Hakeem had good teammates? What a lousy argument. Let's see the argument for his awesome teamates from the 1993-94 Rockets roster:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1994.html

No one averaging more than 14.0 ppg, Maxwell #2 option (Thorpe scored more points but a ton of those were from putbacks) drilling it at 38.9% from the floor and 29.8% from the 3 point land. Something called Chris Gent was their 4th leading scorer in the 24 games he played at 10.4 ppg. 2 guys besides Hakeem who played in more than 24 games averaged in double figures. Casell averaged 6 ppg in his rookie year. Ultra scrubs Scott Brooks and Carl Herrera are rotation players. Horry and Elie don't break 10 ppg or crack 30 minutes.

Tons of problems. The glass ain't half empty it's got a fucking quarter sized hole in the bottom of it.

But you mean Sam wasn't the Sam I grew up watching with the bucks when he was in Houston?:depressed

Well shit.. there goes my argument.. but they had Mad Max!! and Sleepy Floyd!!

[Amaso]

Olajuwon would have his way with Duncan 1v1. Also there's no one better than a prime Olajuwon

[ynh]

They had fucking Pete Chilcut! and Matt Buzzard!!

[HarlemHeat37]

Peak Hakeem > Peak Duncan IMO, but Olajuwon has become remembered slightly differently with revisionist history IMO..Hakeem is remembered a lot more fondly today than he was during his actual playing days IMO..

Looking at MVP voting in regards to Hakeem from his rookie year until the end of his "prime", he had a decent amount of seasons where he finished outside of the top 5 in MVP voting..I'm excluding players like Jordan, Magic and Bird, along with a few others in certain seasons, because there's obviously no shame in being behind them..

I'm including comparable players like Malone, Robinson and Ewing, because Hakeem is currently remembered a lot better than the 3 of those guys, so I figure he should be ahead of them in most years due to the revisionist history..



Olajuwon had 6 seasons during his athletic peak/prime where he finished outside the top 5 in voting..

Rookie season: 12th in MVP voting, behind such players as Terry Cummings, Sidney Moncrief, Calvin Natt, Alex English and his own teammate Ralph Sampson..

1987: 7th in MVP voting, behind McHale, Wilkins and Barkley..

1988: 7th in MVP voting, behind Barkley, Drexler and Wilkins, just ahead of Malone..

1990: 7th in MVP voting, behind Malone, Ewing and Robinson..

1991: 18th in MVP voting..this one was due to an injury where he only played around 60 games, but he finished behind his own teammate Kenny Smith..

1992: Didn't receive any votes at all..




Duncan had 2 seasons where he finished outside of the top 5..

2006: 8th in MVP, injuries(battling PF all year)..

2008: 7th in MVP, probably the last season where you could say he was in his prime..



Obviously when it comes to MVP voting, there are many factors involved..I'm not using this as primary argument or anything, I just found it interesting to see what the MVP voting looks like and how these guys were remembered in this regard during their active playing days..

MVP voting is often flawed and often criticized, but it's a good enough indication of a player's impact for that specific year..he doesn't necessarily have to finish at #1, but finishing in the top 5 is usually a decent gauge IMO..

Again, I'm not using this as an argument, but I think it's safe to say that Hakeem wasn't as appreciated during his time as he is by today's NBA fans..it might mean that they didn't realize the greatness they were watching, it might mean that Hakeem's highlights and 1 series vs. David Robinson got him more hype with revisionist history, it might mean something else, I just found it interesting..

BTW, I'm not comparing Hakeem's finishes to Duncan's finishes..it's obviously tough to compare without in-depth researching, the league and talent was different while each guy was playing..I'm just looking at it to see how those players were remembered in their own time in regards to MVP voting..

[Booharv]

They had fucking Pete Chilcut! and Matt Buzzard!!

Also, note that # 2 option Maxwell's 29.8% 3 point field goal percentage didn't stop him from jacking up 5.4 threes a game. Its a bona fide miracle Hakeem won a series with that team.

[Sportstudi]

95 Hakeem The Dream could be considered the greatest basketball player of all time. In the playoffs, he went through the league's top 4 players (Malone, Barkley, Robinson, and Shaq) in one playoff run, putting up ridiculous numbers.

I've never seen a player as good as 95 Hakeem. Not 3 peat Shaq, first 3 peat Jordan, or 03 Duncan.

It's no insult to Duncan to claim that he would get outclassed by 95 Hakeem. He outclassed everyone.

This.

Career-wise it's pretty much clear that Duncan > Hakeem, but during that year the Dream destroyed everyone. He had a rather short prime, but within that span he was simply unstoppable.

[pauls931]

That year hurt because it was the Suns best shot at the title with Barkley still ok and no MJ waiting at the end of the line. It's a shame MJ wasn't waiting, if the dream could have disposed of the bulls with MJ I think that would rank them as the greatest team of all time.

[JamStone]

Peak Hakeem > Peak Duncan IMO, but Olajuwon has become remembered slightly differently with revisionist history IMO..Hakeem is remembered a lot more fondly today than he was during his actual playing days IMO..

Looking at MVP voting in regards to Hakeem from his rookie year until the end of his "prime", he had a decent amount of seasons where he finished outside of the top 5 in MVP voting..I'm excluding players like Jordan, Magic and Bird, along with a few others in certain seasons, because there's obviously no shame in being behind them..

I'm including comparable players like Malone, Robinson and Ewing, because Hakeem is currently remembered a lot better than the 3 of those guys, so I figure he should be ahead of them in most years due to the revisionist history..



Olajuwon had 6 seasons during his athletic peak/prime where he finished outside the top 5 in voting..

Rookie season: 12th in MVP voting, behind such players as Terry Cummings, Sidney Moncrief, Calvin Natt, Alex English and his own teammate Ralph Sampson..

1987: 7th in MVP voting, behind McHale, Wilkins and Barkley..

1988: 7th in MVP voting, behind Barkley, Drexler and Wilkins, just ahead of Malone..

1990: 7th in MVP voting, behind Malone, Ewing and Robinson..

1991: 18th in MVP voting..this one was due to an injury where he only played around 60 games, but he finished behind his own teammate Kenny Smith..

1992: Didn't receive any votes at all..




Duncan had 2 seasons where he finished outside of the top 5..

2006: 8th in MVP, injuries(battling PF all year)..

2008: 7th in MVP, probably the last season where you could say he was in his prime..



Obviously when it comes to MVP voting, there are many factors involved..I'm not using this as primary argument or anything, I just found it interesting to see what the MVP voting looks like and how these guys were remembered in this regard during their active playing days..

MVP voting is often flawed and often criticized, but it's a good enough indication of a player's impact for that specific year..he doesn't necessarily have to finish at #1, but finishing in the top 5 is usually a decent gauge IMO..

Again, I'm not using this as an argument, but I think it's safe to say that Hakeem wasn't as appreciated during his time as he is by today's NBA fans..it might mean that they didn't realize the greatness they were watching, it might mean that Hakeem's highlights and 1 series vs. David Robinson got him more hype with revisionist history, it might mean something else, I just found it interesting..

BTW, I'm not comparing Hakeem's finishes to Duncan's finishes..it's obviously tough to compare without in-depth researching, the league and talent was different while each guy was playing..I'm just looking at it to see how those players were remembered in their own time in regards to MVP voting..

As you already conceded, there are different factors that go into MVP voting so I'm not sure why you brought it up in the first place.

Players, no matter how good they are, don't get MVP votes when they're on .500 teams. And for most of those seasons you highlighted in Hakeem's career, those Houston teams were right around a .500 record and you explained 1991 with Hakeem's injuries.

Great players get more credit when their individual greatness in turn makes their team great. That was the case for Duncan's entire career. He played for great teams, 50+ win teams, teams that went deep in the playoffs year in and year out. That's why he would get greater MVP consideration season after season.

I understand that you acknowledge that other factors go into MVP voting, but I'm not sure why you brought this point up in the first place.

[Killakobe81]

This.

Career-wise it's pretty much clear that Duncan > Hakeem, but during that year the Dream destroyed everyone. He had a rather short prime, but within that span he was simply unstoppable.

i agree with this completely.

Duncan>career than Hakeem

But 95 Hakeem was >Jordan>Magic>Shaq ...BECAUSE OF DEFENSE ...

TBH for 2 years Hakeem was the greatest player i have ever seen as well ...only because Kareem was at the tail end of his prime in the early 80's whne i started watching him.

[redzero]

I love when these Olajuwon-Duncan topics are made.

[ambchang]

I would pick Hakeem over Duncan in a game of 1 on 1 every day of the week. 100 out of 100 times. Duncan had great low post moves, the problem is that of the only two players in the history of the league who have better low post moves, one of them was Hakeem.

This thread also showed that there are a bunch of kids who never watched the 94 and 95 rockets team, by claiming Hakeem had crappy teammates. That Rockets team was clutch, well-balanced, and the perfect system for Hakeem. There are constantly 3 or 4 shooters on that team that can annihalate the opponent on 3 point barrages. To top it off, the league shortened the 3 point line in 95, and the quick release of those shooters (plus an aging Drexler), made that team ever more difficult to stop.

Finally, there's the defense that those Rockets teams played. It was anchored by Hakeem, but a young Horry, Cassell, Kenny Smith and Thorpe could wreck havoc on the defensive end.

[Booharv]

I would pick Hakeem over Duncan in a game of 1 on 1 every day of the week. 100 out of 100 times. Duncan had great low post moves, the problem is that of the only two players in the history of the league who have better low post moves, one of them was Hakeem.

This thread also showed that there are a bunch of kids who never watched the 94 and 95 rockets team, by claiming Hakeem had crappy teammates. That Rockets team was clutch, well-balanced, and the perfect system for Hakeem. There are constantly 3 or 4 shooters on that team that can annihalate the opponent on 3 point barrages. To top it off, the league shortened the 3 point line in 95, and the quick release of those shooters (plus an aging Drexler), made that team ever more difficult to stop.

Finally, there's the defense that those Rockets teams played. It was anchored by Hakeem, but a young Horry, Cassell, Kenny Smith and Thorpe could wreck havoc on the defensive end.

I watched pretty much all of the playoffs from 1990 to current day except for some of the obvious mismatch series. Hakeem had some awful teammates in 1993-94. There were some good defensive role players on that team but no one at all who could reliably create their shot other than Hakeem. Maxwell was by far the #2 option and he averaged over 13 fga's per game and shot unbelievably bad from the field. Like record breaking bad. No one else averaged double digit fga's per game. And if you remember that time at all any time Hakeem went out of the game that team was ugly to watch. They basically swung it around the perimeter until someone jacked up a contested jumper. Or threw it in to Thorpe who was a mechanical post player.

[Lars]

Hakeem was amazing.

[ChrisRichards]

You guys have to remember that Olajuwon faced the absolute beasts in the 90's and owned them.

D-Rob
Ewing
Shaq

I believe he will easily dissect a prime Duncan on defense and Duncan wont do anything to stop Olajuwon offensively.

[jdev82]

i know i havent been watching basketball religiously that long, since 94, but duncan 1999-2003 is the best player i have ever seen. ever.

[ChrisRichards]

i know i havent been watching basketball religiously that long, since 94, but duncan 1999-2003 is the best player i have ever seen. ever.
If you saw Olajuwon in 94-96 you would'nt say that.

[ambchang]

I watched pretty much all of the playoffs from 1990 to current day except for some of the obvious mismatch series. Hakeem had some awful teammates in 1993-94. There were some good defensive role players on that team but no one at all who could reliably create their shot other than Hakeem. Maxwell was by far the #2 option and he averaged over 13 fga's per game and shot unbelievably bad from the field. Like record breaking bad. No one else averaged double digit fga's per game. And if you remember that time at all any time Hakeem went out of the game that team was ugly to watch. They basically swung it around the perimeter until someone jacked up a contested jumper. Or threw it in to Thorpe who was a mechanical post player.

Cassell could create his offense pretty much as a rookie, Kenny Smith could make a few shots here and there, and yeah, the team looks ugly on offense when Hakeem is out because the whole offense was geared towards that one player.

94 and 95 Rockets team are the definition of total more than the sum of its parts. Each player had a very defined role, and they did that very well. It was the first team to master the inside-out offense by taking advantage of the 3-pt line (later followed by the Shaq Lakers and Duncan Spurs).

Maxwell shot a horrible percentage, but when he catches fire, he makes incredibly difficult shots. That's why he was called Mad Max, he can be a total liability one time, and a monster the next. Players like Mario Elie, Maxwell, Horry and such are absolute defensive hounds, and were even more effective back in the hand-check days.

Outside of Hakeem, the 94 Rockets team had 4 double digit scorer, and Elie and Horry averaging more than 9 points. That was a very balanced team that can hurt you in more ways than one.

Of course, those teammates all depend on defense double teaming Hakeem, but these are players who can nail down open shots during crunch time.

It's like saying 03 Duncan had horrible teammates because the 2nd option is a 2nd year Parker who wilted under pressure and had Kerr and Claxton replace him during crunch time, and a crazy unreliable Jackson firing up shots and shots. But of course anybody who saw the Spurs play would know how Robinson defended the paint along with Duncan (like Thorpe with Hakeem), how Jackson nailed clutch shots during crunch time (like Maxwell did), and how Claxton and Kerr came up big during the most unexpected moments (like Horry, Cassell and Elie did)

[Capt Bringdown]

Simmons makes one of his greatest "what ifs" in NBA history what if the 1986 Rockets hadn't fallen apart due to drug use and Sampson's injuries. He argues they were the Lakers kryptonite and the Sampson turnaround shot made the series seem like a Cinderella story when they really beat the Lakers brains out.


A player or two here, and a break or two there, and we'd be talking about the Olujawon instead of the Jordan era.

[Booharv]

Cassell could create his offense pretty much as a rookie, Kenny Smith could make a few shots here and there, and yeah, the team looks ugly on offense when Hakeem is out because the whole offense was geared towards that one player.

94 and 95 Rockets team are the definition of total more than the sum of its parts. Each player had a very defined role, and they did that very well. It was the first team to master the inside-out offense by taking advantage of the 3-pt line (later followed by the Shaq Lakers and Duncan Spurs).

Maxwell shot a horrible percentage, but when he catches fire, he makes incredibly difficult shots. That's why he was called Mad Max, he can be a total liability one time, and a monster the next. Players like Mario Elie, Maxwell, Horry and such are absolute defensive hounds, and were even more effective back in the hand-check days.

Outside of Hakeem, the 94 Rockets team had 4 double digit scorer, and Elie and Horry averaging more than 9 points. That was a very balanced team that can hurt you in more ways than one.

Of course, those teammates all depend on defense double teaming Hakeem, but these are players who can nail down open shots during crunch time.

It's like saying 03 Duncan had horrible teammates because the 2nd option is a 2nd year Parker who wilted under pressure and had Kerr and Claxton replace him during crunch time, and a crazy unreliable Jackson firing up shots and shots. But of course anybody who saw the Spurs play would know how Robinson defended the paint along with Duncan (like Thorpe with Hakeem), how Jackson nailed clutch shots during crunch time (like Maxwell did), and how Claxton and Kerr came up big during the most unexpected moments (like Horry, Cassell and Elie did)

Duncan's teammates were pretty mediocre in 03. Some very good defenders, but Kerr had to come off the bench as a 30-whatever year old fossil, who admitted openly he couldn't guard anybody, to hit wide open jumpers because Duncan's teammates were visibly terrified taking wide open shots and were clanging them all over the place. I think you're falling into the same trap that a lot of sports GMs fall into, over-rating role players because they were on a championship team. Plus you shouldn't be counting Jent as a double figure scorer he only played in 24 games and averaged like 5 ppg in the playoffs. Cassell averaged 9.4 ppg on sub 39% shooting in the playoffs, and Mad Max shot 37% in the playoffs. Keep in mind I'm just using these stats to back up my memories, Cassell didn't emerge at all as a player that impressed me until 1995-96 and at that point, I felt he was kind of competing with Hakeem and Clyde for shots which I think hurt that team a bit.

[djohn2oo8]

A player or two here, and a break or two there, and we'd be talking about the Olujawon instead of the Jordan era.

I know hindsight is 20/20, but man what would have been with Jordan and Hakeem on the same team :depressed

[Roxsfan]

Hakeem would have embarrassed Duncan the way he did D. Rob. God, Hakeem was so freaking talented and clutch, it's not even funny.

[Shastafarian]

Hakeem had good teammates? What a lousy argument. Let's see the argument for his awesome teamates from the 1993-94 Rockets roster:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1994.html

No one averaging more than 14.0 ppg, Maxwell #2 option (Thorpe scored more points but a ton of those were from putbacks) drilling it at 38.9% from the floor and 29.8% from the 3 point land. Something called Chris Gent was their 4th leading scorer in the 24 games he played at 10.4 ppg. 2 guys besides Hakeem who played in more than 24 games averaged in double figures. Casell averaged 6 ppg in his rookie year. Ultra scrubs Scott Brooks and Carl Herrera are rotation players. Horry and Elie don't break 10 ppg or crack 30 minutes.

Tons of problems. The glass ain't half empty it's got a fucking quarter sized hole in the bottom of it.:lol First of all 3 other guys averaged double figures but whatever.

It's funny how full of shit you are. Thorpe averaged 10.6 rebounds in 35 minutes a game. He shot 56% from the floor. Kenny Smith shot 48% from the floor but only played 28 minutes a game. He and Maxwell averaged 9 assists per game. In 2003 Duncan averaged 12.9 RPG. The next closest was David Robinson at 7.9. Only one other player averaged more than 4 RPG (Malik Rose). How about on offense? Tony Parker was the second leading scorer at 15.5 PPG on 46%. The only other players who averaged better than 47% shooting were Kevin Willis (11.8 MPG) and Devin Brown (3.1 MPG in 7 games). Hakeem had 3 teammates (all playing over 16 MPG) shoot over 48%. So if Hakeem's teammates sucked in 93/94, Duncan was playing all by himself.


But you mean Sam wasn't the Sam I grew up watching with the bucks when he was in Houston?:depressed

Well shit.. there goes my argument.. but they had Mad Max!! and Sleepy Floyd!!Good analysis :tu Maybe if you took Booharv's dick our of your mouth for a second, you'd actually look shit up for yourself.

[Shastafarian]

:lol How the hell did Olajuwon "fall off a cliff" :lmao

The guy at the age of 36 put up 19pp, 9.6rpb, and 2.5bpg....which is better than what Duncan did at 33 (now give me the "per" :lmao)His body fell off a cliff. Was I not clear when I used the games played numbers?


I hate to tell you this, but once big men fall they tend to fall fast. Give a alltime great props for lasting as long as he did, which is MUCH longer than Duncan will ever last.Hakeem lasted longer but Duncan still has more MVPs, Finals MVPS, Titles, All-NBA First Teams, and All-Defensive First Teams. Oh and you're basing that off of knowing the future :rollin


Well did Robinson not play second fiddle to Duncan?
I might be wrong but I think Hakeem played with Ralph Sampson from 1985-1987 in which Sampson was an All-Star each year. Nope...I'm not wrong.

[Booharv]

:lol First of all 3 other guys averaged double figures but whatever.

It's funny how full of shit you are. Thorpe averaged 10.6 rebounds in 35 minutes a game. He shot 56% from the floor. Kenny Smith shot 48% from the floor but only played 28 minutes a game. He and Maxwell averaged 9 assists per game. In 2003 Duncan averaged 12.9 RPG. The next closest was David Robinson at 7.9. Only one other player averaged more than 4 RPG (Malik Rose). How about on offense? Tony Parker was the second leading scorer at 15.5 PPG on 46%. The only other players who averaged better than 47% shooting were Kevin Willis (11.8 MPG) and Devin Brown (3.1 MPG in 7 games). Hakeem had 3 teammates (all playing over 16 MPG) shoot over 48%. So if Hakeem's teammates sucked in 93/94, Duncan was playing all by himself.


Lol, at childishly cursing and stating I'm full of shit as an integral part of your argument. You know you're winning an argument when frustration like that happens. Also, acting like I said Duncan had good teammates in 2003 when I said he had mediocre ones is just weird. I mean really. Let's play fair here. I could call you an insane homer but namecalling is not rationally discussing things. Besides teammates is part of the argument, the other part is Hakeem's nuking of three top 50 guys. I said he had 2 teammates in double figures true which was an error on my part (its too late to even get into the argument at this point that scoring double figures doesn't make you a good player, its a pretty arbitrary number) Also, accusing someone else who thinks Hakeem was better than Duncan, of fellating me is ridiculous since it seems to me that most people think 1993-95 Hakeem was better than any 2-3 year version of Duncan.

At that point in his career Thorpe was very statistically similar to someone like Al Horford. As a matter of fact they're both muscular 6'9 guys with mechanical post games who shot a high percentage and averaged 14/10 and about a block per game. Thorpe averaged 20/10 one year in his career but that was on an awful Sacramento team, and in 1993-94 he had fallen off from his earlier Rockets career. He was a famously tough guy who I would rank above Horford for that reason alone but he was an above average power forward nothing else. The guy was a one time All Star. Also, a backcourt that averages 9 assists per game is so common place as to not be worth discussing. When I was looking up the record of the team Thorpe was on when he scored 20/10 I noticed the 28-54 1988 Kings backcourt average 13 apg. Heck, this year's 25 win Kings team averaged over 10 apg. To make matters worse Kevin Loughery and Fred Carter averaged a combined 8.9 apg for the 9-73 Sixers team in 1972-73.

Things you didn't mention:

* Maxwell's shooting percentage.
* The fact that Kenny Smith had seriously declined from earlier in his career and was a BJ Armstrong type player at that point (A 48% fg, is not some rare accomplishment when you take 9.1 shots per game, and most of them are open jumpers).
* Maxwell's shooting percentage.
* The fact that no one but Hakeem and Thorpe (16.6) had a PER above the league average. PER isn't the end all of stats but its a useful ancillary tool to use in addition to other ones. It basically its a good measure of how many total stats (points, blocks, rebounds, steals, etc.) a guy accumulates when he is on the court, and how efficient he is with the ball (TS%, turnover ratio, etc.). These Rockets accumulated very few stats and weren't that great at protecting the ball. The Spurs had 4 guys with PERs above the league average on their 2003 team.
* Maxwell's shooting percentage at threes (29.8%) plus his taking 5.4 a game of them.
* The fact that no other Rocket could create their own shot. At the very least TP and Speedy had the ability to get to the paint and make some layups.
* Maxwell's shooting percentages and the fact that going by shot attempts he was the bona fide #2 option on that team.

Seriously, some people love championship teams' role players. Reminds of the GMs that give huge contracts to the likes of James Posey, Trevor Ariza, and Devin George.

I love Tim Duncan. He's my favorite player. That doesn't mean I'm irrational about him, and the fact that you could get so worked up that I think peak Hakeem is better than him is weird. It sucks having to sit here and argue against the Spurs on anything. Its not like we're talking about Bill Cartwright being better than him. And what's with the personal attacks? Its like I shot your dog or something.

[Booharv]

Again, the Spurs didn't have a great team around Tim in 03, what he did was very impressive. Not as impressive as what Hakeem did in 1994 and 1995 that's all.

[Shastafarian]

OMG. Sorry Mista, I won't curse no more. Mommy washed my mouth out too many times. I don't wanna have it happen again. You know what's as lame as "cursing" in posts? Dismissing someone's argument because they used words you don't like.

You don't seem to understand what I'm arguing here. First of all I never said nor implied that you thought Duncan had good teammates. Your assertion that Hakeem had shit teammates conveniently ignores how shitty Duncan's teammates have been in the past. It suits your argument. I'm trying to dispel this myth that Hakeem had shitty teammates (comparatively) so people can look at their skills without external variables.

What I find hilarious is that you and others are so 100% sure Duncan would get dominated by Hakeem. And if you come back with, "Well he wouldn't get dominated but Hakeem was definitely better". That's hilarious. Ya know, I see that kind of stuff ALL the time. One guy is just a smidge better than another but always bests him. Happens all the time.

I also like how you used Simmons. Where did he rank Hakeem and Duncan respectively?

[Shastafarian]

Again, the Spurs didn't have a great team around Tim in 03, what he did was very impressive. Not as impressive as what Hakeem did in 1994 and 1995 that's all.
So then are you basing your entire argument around this?

[djohn2oo8]

I don't know who it was, but someone in this thread mentioned earlier that Duncan had a better career than Hakeem because Hakeem couldn't get past Jordan, and if Duncan was given the opportunity, he might be able to :lol

[Shastafarian]

I don't know who it was, but someone in this thread mentioned earlier that Duncan had a better career than Hakeem because Hakeem couldn't get past Jordan, and if Duncan was given the opportunity, he might be able to :lol

See that's bullshit and I know it. Neither of them could get past Jordan. And that's what I'm trying to argue. They were both amazing players. I think they both had unique skills that makes it impossible to say who was a better player. But no. Hakeem had shitty teammates! He went through good centers and Barkley and Malone even though he didn't guard them blah blah blah. Gimme a break.

[Shastafarian]

Oops sorry I said "bullshit". Should I say 5 hailmarys?

[Booharv]

OMG. Sorry Mista, I won't curse no more. Mommy washed my mouth out too many times. I don't wanna have it happen again. You know what's as lame as "cursing" in posts? Dismissing someone's argument because they used words you don't like.

You don't seem to understand what I'm arguing here. First of all I never said nor implied that you thought Duncan had good teammates. Your assertion that Hakeem had shit teammates conveniently ignores how shitty Duncan's teammates have been in the past. It suits your argument. I'm trying to dispel this myth that Hakeem had shitty teammates (comparatively) so people can look at their skills without external variables.

What I find hilarious is that you and others are so 100% sure Duncan would get dominated by Hakeem. And if you come back with, "Well he wouldn't get dominated but Hakeem was definitely better". That's hilarious. Ya know, I see that kind of stuff ALL the time. One guy is just a smidge better than another but always bests him. Happens all the time.

I also like how you used Simmons. Where did he rank Hakeem and Duncan respectively?

I just don't get where the anomisity is coming from. I love Duncan. Most message boards waste time with insults, and the like. You seem like an intelligent guy, not sure why we can't have an intelligent discussion (cue up the "Because you're a retard" response). Quite frankly, if I'm a complete moron why are you wasting your time arguing with me?

I never said he would get dominated, just that I would be very nervous and frankly a little worried for him. It's something I'd rather not see tbh. Watching any NBA playoffs will result in surprising developments (just look at this year), so you never could tell. But Hakeem was clearly better to my eyes.

Simmons ranked players based on their total careers. Not their peaks. He basically says that Hakeem's early career hurt his overall ranking because he wasn't a total team player until 1992-93. He even raves about how awesome he was in his peak as does Elliott Kalb in his mediocre book.

All stats aside most of this ranking has to do with the eyeball test. The things Hakeem did to Ewing, Robinson, and O'Neal were unforgettable. I just remember an insane series of spin moves, turnarounds, ball fakes, and up and unders that were awe inspiring and unstoppable. Duncan did bukkake the entire Lakers front line in game 6 of the WCSF (you knew the game was over when they finally put Shaq on him in the third quarter and Tim immediately scored like 10 straight points), but he didn't go face up against three top 50 guys with mediocre help and destroy them and their teams in the way Hakeem did.

Tbh, this argument has way beyond run its course at this point I'm not sure what else needs to be said. Both sides have made their points very clearly at this stage of the game. I'll let you have the last word as far as I'm concerned. Hopefully, the word isn't retard, idiot, or dumbass.

[Killakobe81]

i know i havent been watching basketball religiously that long, since 94, but duncan 1999-2003 is the best player i have ever seen. ever.

Jordan was better ...
2000 Shaq was better (only THAT season)
and Hakeem forabout 5 of his seasons (the middle 5) was better ...If you watch Hakeem in thet PLAYOFFS even BEFORE '94-95 he was a beast/

Side note: I have an unle (not from houston he is Belizean) who just loves basketball ...is a Laker fan lives in LA who named his son Akeem . Said he was the best player he ever saw ...

The last corporat training did I did here in Dallas there is a guy in my class named "olajawon" (first name) and his fam is from Louisiana not Dallas.

Point being people act as though "true" basketball fans didnt realize how great Olajawon was ...WE DID. It's only the Jordan obessive fans that act like ball wasnt played outside of the East those years. All the casual fans wanted to see was MJ and if anyone could stop him.

Fans of teams in the wEst: Lakers, Spurs, Suns, Sonics Rox (though biased) and Mavs fans ALL know what a TRUE beast he was ...cuz he killed us.

And if you look at the posts these are the fans defending Hakeems greatness even some Spur fans.

[Mavs_man_41]

In 1992 Dream had Kenny Smith, Maxwell and Thorpe and didn't even make the playoffs. It's pretty obvious his true prime wasn't till 1993.

gimme a break, jason fucking terry is better than smith and maxwell, the only player worth noting is thorpe. i didn't know jason terry and someone who could easily be placed on the same talent level as josh howard in maxwell was SUCH A GREAT FUCKING SUPPORTING CAST!!

[Mavs_man_41]

Hakeem was so much harder to guard offensively, and probably the GOAT defensively. is this even a contest? really guys? and you all wonder why nobody tries to hold serious basketball discussion on this site and it's just a bunch of trolling..the fact of the matter is the majority of you guys are fucking stupid and your takes aren't even worth debating.

[midnightpulp]

Hakeem was so much harder to guard offensively, and probably the GOAT defensively. is this even a contest? really guys? and you all wonder why nobody tries to hold serious basketball discussion on this site and it's just a bunch of trolling..the fact of the matter is the majority of you guys are fucking stupid and your takes aren't even worth debating.

Then why are the majority of posters in this thread, most Spurs fans included, taking the Hakeem side of the debate?

[Mavs_man_41]

Then why are the majority of posters in this thread, most Spurs fans included, taking the Hakeem side of the debate?

i'm mostly refering to the ones who aren't. i've seen quite a few retarded quotes just by skimming through

[duhoh]

no contest. the dream was better, and a far more complete player.

[Shastafarian]

i've seen quite a few retarded quotes just by skimming through

like this?


and probably the GOAT defensively.

[midnightpulp]

like this?

Hakeem is definitely a top 3 defender of all-time, the other two being Russell and Jordan.

[Mavs_man_41]

like this?

no, not like that. 9 all nba defensive teams and back to back DPOY awards say otherwise. Hakeem had everything, the quickness, smarts, leaping ability, you name it. He was the only guy who could lock down the paint or even chase a guard down on the fast break for the swat. the man was the total package, and demolished pretty much every other great that he went up against. i'm sorry if that offends you or something, actually i'm really not. tough shit

[Shastafarian]

no, not like that. 9 all nba defensive teams and back to back DPOY awards say otherwise. Hakeem had everything, the quickness, smarts, leaping ability, you name it. He was the only guy who could lock down the paint or even chase a guard down on the fast break for the swat. the man was the total package, and demolished pretty much every other great that he went up against. i'm sorry if that offends you or something, actually i'm really not. tough shit

:rollin

You think Hakeem was better than Russell. Oh mavsfan, never leave this place.

[Shastafarian]

Hakeem is definitely a top 3 defender of all-time, the other two being Russell and Jordan.

I know. he's probably the 2nd best big man. Mavsfan said he's probably the GOAT. Mavsfan is wrong.

[Mavs_man_41]

I know. he's probably the 2nd best big man. Mavsfan said he's probably the GOAT. Mavsfan is wrong.

let me know when you complete that device of yours to bring russell into the present, spur fan.

[Galileo]

Duncan was already better than Olajuwon's peak by 1999.

Duncan is the best player of all time with Olajuwon 2nd.

[djohn2oo8]

Duncan was already better than Olajuwon's peak by 1999.

Duncan is the best player of all time with Olajuwon 2nd.

Failed attempt at rile up

[Shastafarian]

let me know when you complete that device of yours to bring russell into the present, spur fan.

:lmao

This guy thinks Hakeem was a better defender than Russell. Lemme know when your time machine sends Hakeem back.

[Shastafarian]

You gonna have to change your name now that your buddy Dirk wants nothing to do with your sorry franchise? Maybe Mavs_man_31. Terry will lead you guys to the promised land.

[Mavs_man_41]

sick burn, guy who overrates old timers. anyway, it's a moot point. best defender of all time or 2nd best, you've already admitted he's a better defender than duncan. and it's obvious he's also the better offensive player. hakeem > duncan is the only point i'm trying to prove, have a nice day.

[Shastafarian]

Later Mavs_man_14

http://lowposts.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/eduardoface.jpg

[HarlemHeat37]

As you already conceded, there are different factors that go into MVP voting so I'm not sure why you brought it up in the first place.

Players, no matter how good they are, don't get MVP votes when they're on .500 teams. And for most of those seasons you highlighted in Hakeem's career, those Houston teams were right around a .500 record and you explained 1991 with Hakeem's injuries.

Great players get more credit when their individual greatness in turn makes their team great. That was the case for Duncan's entire career. He played for great teams, 50+ win teams, teams that went deep in the playoffs year in and year out. That's why he would get greater MVP consideration season after season.

I understand that you acknowledge that other factors go into MVP voting, but I'm not sure why you brought this point up in the first place.

I'm bringing it up because there's absolutely no doubt that Olajuwon is remembered a lot better in today's NBA than he was during his own era..I don't think it's debatable..

Even though I already pointed out the flaws of MVP voting, it's still a decent gauge IMO, and there are plenty of guys that always get consideration for MVP, even when their team is around .500..just in recent years alone, there was Wade last year, Kobex2, Iverson, McGradyx2 that all finished in the top 5 in MVP voting, despite being on mediocre teams..

Olajuwon finished 12th in MVP voting, behind his own teammate Ralph Sampson..behind Bernard King and Jordan, 2 guys that were on horrible teams that year, which didn't stop them from getting a lot of votes..

He finished well behind Jordan and behind Barkley when their teams were similar to his in 1987..

He finished behind Dominique Wilkins with a similar team, and Barkley on a horrible team in 1988..

How did he finish behind Kenny Smith in 1991?..I understand the injury kept him lower in voting, but how can he fall back behind one of his average teammates?..

In 1992, Olajuwon's Rockets won 42 games and he didn't receive a single MVP vote..Detlef Schremf and Danny Manning received more votes, even though their teams were similar to Dream's..Barkley played for a bad team and still finished well ahead in MVP voting that year..

My point is that the way people talk about Olajuwon is strictly based on his 2-3 year peak IMO..people often take those 2-3 years and act like this was Olajuwon for his entire career..it wasn't..

I'm not necessarily talking about this thread, because this thread is only about "prime years", but it still confuses me as to how Olajuwon was remembered so differently during his own time..I'm not just talking about my own thoughts here, there have been plenty of arguments on forums like RealGM from the older guys there about Olajuwon being overrated from a career standpoint..

BTW, I'm not arguing that Duncan is better than Hakeem, I don't think he is, as I've already said..I'm just making the point that Olajuwon's legacy has been inflated, which I don't believe can be argued..in fact, from everything I've read and from everything I've heard of die-hards from that era, David Robinson was considered better for years until that 1 series, and I would imagine that this series had a lot to do with Hakeem's inflation..it undoubtedly had a lot to do with the fact that The Admiral is extremely underrated today, that's one of the primary things that today's fan remembers about him, which is sad..

[MaNu4Tres]

I'm bringing it up because there's absolutely no doubt that Olajuwon is remembered a lot better in today's NBA than he was during his own era..I don't think it's debatable..

Even though I already pointed out the flaws of MVP voting, it's still a decent gauge IMO, and there are plenty of guys that always get consideration for MVP, even when their team is around .500..just in recent years alone, there was Wade last year, Kobex2, Iverson, McGradyx2 that all finished in the top 5 in MVP voting, despite being on mediocre teams..

Olajuwon finished 12th in MVP voting, behind his own teammate Ralph Sampson..behind Bernard King and Jordan, 2 guys that were on horrible teams that year, which didn't stop them from getting a lot of votes..

He finished well behind Jordan and behind Barkley when their teams were similar to his in 1987..

He finished behind Dominique Wilkins with a similar team, and Barkley on a horrible team in 1988..

How did he finish behind Kenny Smith in 1991?..I understand the injury kept him lower in voting, but how can he fall back behind one of his average teammates?..

In 1992, Olajuwon's Rockets won 42 games and he didn't receive a single MVP vote..Detlef Schremf and Danny Manning received more votes, even though their teams were similar to Dream's..Barkley played for a bad team and still finished well ahead in MVP voting that year..

My point is that the way people talk about Olajuwon is strictly based on his 2-3 year peak IMO..people often take those 2-3 years and act like this was Olajuwon for his entire career..it wasn't..

I'm not necessarily talking about this thread, because this thread is only about "prime years", but it still confuses me as to how Olajuwon was remembered so differently during his own time..I'm not just talking about my own thoughts here, there have been plenty of arguments on forums like RealGM from the older guys there about Olajuwon being overrated from a career standpoint..

BTW, I'm not arguing that Duncan is better than Hakeem, I don't think he is, as I've already said..I'm just making the point that Olajuwon's legacy has been inflated, which I don't believe can be argued..in fact, from everything I've read and from everything I've heard of die-hards from that era, David Robinson was considered better for years until that 1 series, and I would imagine that this series had a lot to do with Hakeem's inflation..it undoubtedly had a lot to do with the fact that The Admiral is extremely underrated today, that's one of the primary things that today's fan remembers about him, which is sad..

Harlem FTW..

[Shastafarian]

But he was better than Bill Russell.

[djohn2oo8]

I'm bringing it up because there's absolutely no doubt that Olajuwon is remembered a lot better in today's NBA than he was during his own era..I don't think it's debatable..

Even though I already pointed out the flaws of MVP voting, it's still a decent gauge IMO, and there are plenty of guys that always get consideration for MVP, even when their team is around .500..just in recent years alone, there was Wade last year, Kobex2, Iverson, McGradyx2 that all finished in the top 5 in MVP voting, despite being on mediocre teams..

Olajuwon finished 12th in MVP voting, behind his own teammate Ralph Sampson..behind Bernard King and Jordan, 2 guys that were on horrible teams that year, which didn't stop them from getting a lot of votes..

He finished well behind Jordan and behind Barkley when their teams were similar to his in 1987..

He finished behind Dominique Wilkins with a similar team, and Barkley on a horrible team in 1988..

How did he finish behind Kenny Smith in 1991?..I understand the injury kept him lower in voting, but how can he fall back behind one of his average teammates?..

In 1992, Olajuwon's Rockets won 42 games and he didn't receive a single MVP vote..Detlef Schremf and Danny Manning received more votes, even though their teams were similar to Dream's..Barkley played for a bad team and still finished well ahead in MVP voting that year..

My point is that the way people talk about Olajuwon is strictly based on his 2-3 year peak IMO..people often take those 2-3 years and act like this was Olajuwon for his entire career..it wasn't..

I'm not necessarily talking about this thread, because this thread is only about "prime years", but it still confuses me as to how Olajuwon was remembered so differently during his own time..I'm not just talking about my own thoughts here, there have been plenty of arguments on forums like RealGM from the older guys there about Olajuwon being overrated from a career standpoint..

BTW, I'm not arguing that Duncan is better than Hakeem, I don't think he is, as I've already said..I'm just making the point that Olajuwon's legacy has been inflated, which I don't believe can be argued..in fact, from everything I've read and from everything I've heard of die-hards from that era, David Robinson was considered better for years until that 1 series, and I would imagine that this series had a lot to do with Hakeem's inflation..it undoubtedly had a lot to do with the fact that The Admiral is extremely underrated today, that's one of the primary things that today's fan remembers about him, which is sad..

Robinson recieved an MVP which clearly belonged to Hakeem, I don't think he was underrated. And saying Hakeem's legacy was inflated is just flat out stupid. Just look at the stats

[Lars]

Lot of Dream love in this thread :D

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't have to look at the stats, I obviously know Olajuwon was extremely impressive..I would put him in my top 10, I already said..

I'm curious as to why he's remembered so much differently by today's fans though..

[midnightpulp]

Robinson recieved an MVP which clearly belonged to Hakeem, I don't think he was underrated. And saying Hakeem's legacy was inflated is just flat out stupid. Just look at the stats

No it didn't. Robinson was the better player in the regular season that year on a 60 win team while Hakeem was on a 47 win team.

No matter, Hakeem won the MVP that really counts anyway. But David totally deserved the reg season MVP that year, it's indisputable.

[djohn2oo8]

I don't have to look at the stats, I obviously know Olajuwon was extremely impressive..I would put him in my top 10, I already said..

I'm curious as to why he's remembered so much differently by today's fans though..

Don't know, I guess some of the younger fans didn't see him play back then, and probably look at his moves and rate him high?

[TD 21]

Anyone saying Olajuwon would have "destroyed" Duncan has zero credibility. No one in the history of the game would have definitively destroyed Duncan. If you think Olajuwon's peak was better than Duncan's or that he was slightly better, that's one thing, but don't pretend like Olajuwon was in a different league, that's just flat out ridiculous.

I don't care how skilled or great defensively Olajuwon was, the reality is he was 6-9 1/2 - 6-10 (despite being listed at 7-0). How many players that size even gave Duncan problems?

For the umpteenth time I'll ask: If Duncan isn't that great, which is one again the sentiment I'm getting, then how did he accomplish all he did throughout his career? Keep in mind he never played with another clear cut hall-of-famer in their prime and his team almost never had a bloated payroll.

[Mavs_man_41]

I don't care how skilled or great defensively Olajuwon was, the reality is he was 6-9 1/2 - 6-10 (despite being listed at 7-0). How many players that size even gave Duncan problems?

he's 6'10, just like duncan

[TD 21]

Duncan is a full 6-11 barefoot. Olajuwon, I heard once was 6-9 1/2 - 6-10 (at most) barefoot.

[duhoh]

Anyone saying Olajuwon would have "destroyed" Duncan has zero credibility. No one in the history of the game would have definitively destroyed Duncan. If you think Olajuwon's peak was better than Duncan's or that he was slightly better, that's one thing, but don't pretend like Olajuwon was in a different league, that's just flat out ridiculous.

I don't care how skilled or great defensively Olajuwon was, the reality is he was 6-9 1/2 - 6-10 (despite being listed at 7-0). How many players that size even gave Duncan problems?

For the umpteenth time I'll ask: If Duncan isn't that great, which is one again the sentiment I'm getting, then how did he accomplish all he did throughout his career? Keep in mind he never played with another clear cut hall-of-famer in their prime and his team almost never had a bloated payroll.

sure, but same with hakeem with the first run. no other HoF on that squad. put duncan in the jordan era, and let's see what happens. no one is questioning duncan's greatness. but hakeem was a monster. GOAT post moves ever. he destroyed a prime admiral. duncan destroyed an old d-rob as a rookie, so there are things that can't be quantified by numbers alone.

but duncan's resume > hakeems

[Mavs_man_41]

Duncan is a full 6-11 barefoot. Olajuwon, I heard once was 6-9 1/2 - 6-10 (at most) barefoot.

duncan is about 6'10, he's an inch or so shorter than dirk. anyway do you really think an inch is going to matter when hakeem is dominating his ass?

[Shastafarian]

I hear Bill Russell is only 6'5 barefoot.

[MaNu4Tres]

sure, but same with hakeem with the first run. no other HoF on that squad. put duncan in the jordan era, and let's see what happens. no one is questioning duncan's greatness. but hakeem was a monster. GOAT post moves ever. he destroyed a prime admiral. duncan destroyed an old d-rob as a rookie, so there are things that can't be quantified by numbers alone.

but duncan's resume > hakeems

Duncan had to go through the most dominant big man of the past 30 years from 1999-2004 and came out of that with 2 titles.

Shaquille O'Neal during this time was the most dominant big man since Wilt Chamberlain. Not skilled, but most dominant.

Shaq+Kobe during this era was better than any team Jordan faced. IMO


Also, Hakeem got the better of the Admiral in the 1995 WCF. But the Admiral still put up 24 points 11 rebounds 3.25 blocks during this series. So completely "destroying the Admiral" is a slight overstatement. And Robinson had got the better of Hakeem in may games outside of this one series. Using that one series as the sample for all of Robinson's prime is quite foolish.