What does it say about today's NBA when Gasol is the only true big left?

[midnightpulp]

Bynum ain't in this convo, so fuck off 21, With Duncan aging and declining and Dwight Howard nothing more than a glorified Mutombo, Gasol has obviously taken up the torch as the NBA's premiere bigman. Going further, he's arguably the last 7 footer who actually plays like a true big and not some wannabe 6-10 shooting guard. Now I love Gasol's game, but 10-20 years ago, he's barely an all star. Not a slight against Gasol but more of an implication of how the NBA culture has changed. Bigmen used to dominate the MVP voting and now it's perimeter players. A player like Artis Gilmore would probably be the league's best center today.

What's to blame for the near the extinction of the "bigman?"

Rule changes that cater to perimeter players?

The Jordan effect: Players growing up emulating his game, wanting to be "like Mike," then undergo a drastic growth spurt and never adjust their game, so they remain playing like guards even though they should be learning a post game.

Laziness?

Not going to college?

What say you?

[peskypesky]

Rule changes that cater to perimeter players?

this

[peskypesky]

here's a good post on the topic

http://jonesonthenba.com/2006/05/not-so-fast-is-small-ball-really-wave.html

[midnightpulp]

here's a good post on the topic

http://jonesonthenba.com/2006/05/not-so-fast-is-small-ball-really-wave.html

Thanks.

[TampaDude]

here's a good post on the topic

http://jonesonthenba.com/2006/05/not-so-fast-is-small-ball-really-wave.html

2006???

[j.dizzle]

Good post son. Pau has more offensive weapons in his left nut then dwight has in his whole body. Dwight is a beast on D most of the time but he cant score for shit unless its a dunk fed to him. Left hand, right hand, jumpshot, great FT shooting, god damn no wonder Kobe keeps mentioning that Pau is very underrated still.

[TheManFromAcme]

Good post son. Pau has more offensive weapons in his left nut then dwight has in his whole body. Dwight is a beast on D most of the time but he cant score for shit unless its a dunk fed to him. Left hand, right hand, jumpshot, great FT shooting, god damn no wonder Kobe keeps mentioning that Pau is very underrated still.

Good point Jd. Ike is almost "Shaq-ish". Dunk, Dunk, Dunk, block, block block.
Imagine Pau with Kareem's sky-hook? Cap (KAJ) was the last of the pure scoring bigs in my opinion.

[Capt Bringdown]

The influence of the European game perhaps? Personally, I miss watching good post play.
I wonder how a player like Kevin McHale would do in today's league. That dude was probably the craftiest low-post player I've ever seen.
Next to Hakeem, of course.

Skill-wise, there's nobody even remotely close to those dudes in today's league.

[j.dizzle]

The influence of the European game perhaps? Personally, I miss watching good post play.
I wonder how a player like Kevin McHale would do in today's league. That dude was probably the craftiest low-post player I've ever seen.
Next to Hakeem, of course.
Mchale always says he enjoys watching LA cuz its more old school. 3-4 players that can post up. I wish we saw more of that. Now the league is pretty soft with a bunch of long shots & 3 point chucking..I guess GM's dont realize that jumpshooting teams RARELY win titles :lol

[sefant77]

Pau = Penis in portuguese

Cant take him seriously

[MiamiHeat]

it's not the players fault.

it's the rules.

defensive 3 second violation ruined shot blocking big's. there is no more big time presence clogging the lane.

David Stern did this to open up the lanes to see more Jordan-like dunking and shit

[TheManFromAcme]

Pau = Penis in portuguese

Cant take him seriously

Dirk = Choker in pig latin

Can't count on him for anything.

[hitmanyr2k]

Good point Jd. Ike is almost "Shaq-ish". Dunk, Dunk, Dunk, block, block block.
Imagine Pau with Kareem's sky-hook? Cap (KAJ) was the last of the pure scoring bigs in my opinion.

Shaq wasn't just dunk dunk dunk. Shaq's power game definitely overshadowed his skill but it doesn't mean that skill didn't exist. Shaq had some great moves in the paint and a pretty one-handed fadeaway from the baseline. I used to marvel at his agility and footwork for a man his size.

[Killakobe81]

it's not the players fault.

it's the rules.

defensive 3 second violation ruined shot blocking big's. there is no more big time presence clogging the lane.

David Stern did this to open up the lanes to see more Jordan-like dunking and shit

Agree ...

But part of it is Sportscenter no one wants to play in the post because after watching Jordan KG, etc make plays from the perimeter in ...that is all young kids wanna do ...

When i coach kids want to practice cros-overs more than drop steps or reverse pivots ...

[daslicer]

Pau to me is what Rony Seikaly would have been had he came out during this era.

[midnightpulp]

Mchale always says he enjoys watching LA cuz its more old school. 3-4 players that can post up. I wish we saw more of that. Now the league is pretty soft with a bunch of long shots & 3 point chucking..I guess GM's dont realize that jumpshooting teams RARELY win titles :lol

Check out the article. It's a good read. The reason a lot of teams fall in love with the 3 pointer and jumpshots is to create spacing for guards to penetrate. Combine that with the rule changes that cater to guards and you have GMs now building teams around athletic 2s and 3s rather than the traditional way.

Even so, you still can't beat great post play, no matter how many rule changes you implement to manufacture the next Jordan. Once you guys got Gasol, I knew it was only a matter of time. He's always been Tim Duncan-lite in Memphis and now with Duncan's decline, has surpassed him.

[TampaDude]

As a general rule, championship teams are built around big men with good low post skills on both ends.

[TheManFromAcme]

Shaq wasn't just dunk dunk dunk. Shaq's power game definitely overshadowed his skill but it doesn't mean that skill didn't exist. Shaq had some great moves in the paint and a pretty one-handed fadeaway from the baseline. I used to marvel at his agility and footwork for a man his size.

Your right. What I should have typed was "for the most part" because that's what it was. Not bashing my boy Shaq but he wasn't a basket of shooting skills either. Yes, his footwork was quite impressive for a man his size but you put an A$$ on me the size of Texas I can "ballerina" my way to the basket any day, all day.

[TampaDude]

Your right. What I should have typed was "for the most part" because that's what it was. Not bashing my boy Shaq but he wasn't a basket of shooting skills either. Yes, his footwork was quite impressive for a man his size but you put an A$$ on me the size of Texas I can "ballerina" my way to the basket any day, all day.

Yeah...the bottom line (no pun intended) was that Shaq was pretty much unstoppable in his prime.

[Bob Lanier]

Shaq, or more to the point, his left elbow.

[hitmanyr2k]

Your right. What I should have typed was "for the most part" because that's what it was. Not bashing my boy Shaq but he wasn't a basket of shooting skills either. Yes, his footwork was quite impressive for a man his size but you put an A$$ on me the size of Texas I can "ballerina" my way to the basket any day, all day.

Shaq didn't always have to use his ass to get to the rim though. Ask D-Rob (sorry Spurs fans lol). Can you ever see Dwight Howard making moves like this? The footwork? The speed? And then just going over Robinson and kicking him off like a sack of garbage? It was easy to see the thunderous dunks and all that but I always saw the moves. It wasn't fair for a man the size of Shaq to be this coordinated and quick.


lI85iVU3xkE

[j.dizzle]

Shaq skills shit on Dwights. I would of LOVED to see a 27-28 year old Shaq go against Dwight. It would be a straight gangbanging. How can you call yourself superman when you cant even post up big baby hahaha come on sonnnnn.

[TheManFromAcme]

Shaq, or more to the point, his left elbow.

Yup, I remember "that" elbow...:lol

[DJ Mbenga]

Shaq didn't always have to use his ass to get to the rim though. Ask D-Rob (sorry Spurs fans lol). Can you ever see Dwight Howard making moves like this? The footwork? The speed? And then just going over Robinson and kicking him off like a sack of garbage? It was easy to see the thunderous dunks and all that but I always saw the moves. It wasn't fair for a man the size of Shaq to be this coordinated and quick.


lI85iVU3xkE

at the end of the day he could also do this:

v53lwRhU4fs

[hitmanyr2k]

Shaq skills shit on Dwights. I would of LOVED to see a 27-28 year old Shaq go against Dwight. It would be a straight gangbanging. How can you call yourself superman when you cant even post up big baby hahaha come on sonnnnn.

Prime Shaq would murder any center in the NBA today. Absolutely murder. By halftime Big Baby would be laying under the bench in a fetal position.

[TheManFromAcme]

Shaq didn't always have to use his ass to get to the rim though. Ask D-Rob (sorry Spurs fans lol). Can you ever see Dwight Howard making moves like this? The footwork? The speed? And then just going over Robinson and kicking him off like a sack of garbage? It was easy to see the thunderous dunks and all that but I always saw the moves. It wasn't fair for a man the size of Shaq to be this coordinated and quick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI85iVU3xkE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI85iVU3xkE

Agreed. :tu

I guess after all these years it becoming ever so evident just how dominant Shaq really was. And to answer somebody's hypothetical regarding a prime Dwight vs. a prime Shaq? Are you freaking kidding me? Shaq would post on him like posting on a guard (okay maybe a stretch here) but no contest. Dwight is cut and all and has some good strength on that body but Shaq's mere girth and gargantuan built would make putty out of Dwight....easily

[SomeCallMeTim]

Pau = Penis in portuguese

Cant take him seriously

Then I assume you're no fan of Dick Van Arsdale, Rod Strickland, Magic Johnson, Willie Green, and Wang Zhizhi.

[j.dizzle]

Prime Shaq would murder any center in the NBA today. Absolutely murder. By halftime Big Baby would be laying under the bench in a fetal position.
:lol Prime shaq vs big baby? LMAO big baby would be on the sidelines crying after one of those elbows.
http://sportsbore.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/big-baby-crying.jpg

[LnGrrrR]

Shaq is definitely one of the best centers all time. In his prime, he was a force on offense and defense. Can't ask for much more than that.

[LnGrrrR]

And is there anyone here who thinks ANY center in the league right now would be a challenge for Shaq, excepting Duncan?

Pau would get crushed.

[Venti Quattro]

Perkins? Shaq might got scared of that vintage Perk mugshot look

[midnightpulp]

And is there anyone here who thinks ANY center in the league right now would be a challenge for Shaq, excepting Duncan?

Pau would get crushed.

No. Shows how weak bigmen are today. Back in the 90s, Shaq was often behind Robinson and Hakeem when discussing who the best centers in the league were. Shaq lost his first 5 games to Robinson (both players had comparable teams) and got swept by Hakeem. Then you had good second tier bigs like Ewing, Smits, and Mourning, along with tough interior defenders like Dikembe and Rodman. Pau would be a 2nd or even 3rd tier big back then. Howard would just be regarded as a specialist and not "omg, Superman! The best center in the league."

[sefant77]

Yup, I remember "that" elbow...:lol

Who doesnt...

FJ3FXLyNFew

[dbestpro]

It is a shame that the game is dominated by small ball rotations. The one thing you got to give the Lakers and Cetics credit for is they stick to the bigs and rotate the players the way it was meant to be.

[SomeCallMeTim]

No. Shows how weak bigmen are today. Back in the 90s, Shaq was often behind Robinson and Hakeem when discussing who the best centers in the league were. Shaq lost his first 5 games to Robinson (both players had comparable teams) and got swept by Hakeem. Then you had good second tier bigs like Ewing, Smits, and Mourning, along with tough interior defenders like Dikembe and Rodman. Pau would be a 2nd or even 3rd tier big back then. Howard would just be regarded as a specialist and not "omg, Superman! The best center in the league."

The game evolves and its hard to say what players would be like if magically transported era to era.

One of the things that always strikes me about watching early 80s games is how stick-thin all the players are now. They all have the builds of marathon runners unlike todays players who are often built like brick outhouses. At times I've thought that today's athletes would outmuscle those relatively waiflike dudes of yore.

But I think that's not a fair comparison... those players were especially suited to the early 80s game. Then the game evolved to a more defensive-type game and big men had their heyday. Now that we seem to be in more of a finesse era with scoring increasing, skilled, versatile, finesse big men are thriving (offensively, this definitely includes KG).

Maybe its more environmental than anything... players adapting to the current game or at least being weeded out by natural selection based on what's winning ballgames these days.

[TD 21]

At any other point in the past 50 years, would Howard be considered the NBA's premier big man? I don't think so.

Gasol isn't the "only" true big left. Sure, Duncan's getting further and further away from his prime, but he's still a very good player, which he inexplicably receives no credit for, because he's not the player he once was.

[midnightpulp]

The game evolves and its hard to say what players would be like if magically transported era to era.

One of the things that always strikes me about watching early 80s games is how stick-thin all the players are now. They all have the builds of marathon runners unlike todays players who are often built like brick outhouses. At times I've thought that today's athletes would outmuscle those relatively waiflike dudes of yore.

But I think that's not a fair comparison... those players were especially suited to the early 80s game. Then the game evolved to a more defensive-type game and big men had their heyday. Now that we seem to be in more of a finesse era with scoring increasing, skilled, versatile, finesse big men are thriving (offensively, this definitely includes KG).

Maybe its more environmental than anything... players adapting to the current game or at least being weeded out by natural selection based on what's winning ballgames these days.

I don't necessarily agree with this. Even with the slew of rule changes and bigs adapting to a more finesse, perimeter oriented game, the team with the best frontline and low-post threat usually wins the title or at the very least goes deep.

There's a reason you guys smashed the hell out of Utah and are up 2-0 on Phoenix. Those teams are finesse based with bigs who shoot jumpers, while the Lakers have the best post-player in the game and a decent post threat in Bynum.

[midnightpulp]

At any other point in the past 50 years, would Howard be considered the NBA's premier big man? I don't think so.

Gasol isn't the "only" true big left. Sure, Duncan's getting further and further away from his prime, but he's still a very good player, which he inexplicably receives no credit for, because he's not the player he once was.

Duncan's my fave player of all time. But his decline is very troubling. I've seen it the past three years from him in the playoffs. He looks like the Duncan of old in the first two games of the first round then simply drops off. He just doesn't have the health anymore to sustain high level play for a deep playoff run.

[TD 21]

Troubling? Go back and look at great big men and their drop off at Duncan's age/mileage and you'll realize he's holding up a lot better than a lot of them. This is the problem I have with people, it's like their criticizing Duncan for declining. Like he wasn't supposed to or isn't allowed to. As if he was going to hold up forever.

The guy played four years in college, then jumped right into playing 38-40 mpg (playoffs, he was playing almost full games regularly) and deep run after deep run. He never really had any sort of a break and in the early 00s, he had very limited help. Much less so than many realize now.

Of course he can't sustain now. Look what the Spurs unreasonably asked out of him the past few seasons. Just look at the first half of last season, where he had to carry the team and did. He doesn't have a young front court partner to take the load off of him. We all like Blair, but he's an undersized rookie. Garnett has Perkins, Gasol has Bynum/Odom, who does Duncan have? He get's a 6-9 - 6-10 mostly immobile, past his prime veteran, who can't help him protect the rim. If the Spurs sign Splitter, he should finally have that young front court partner next to him that he's needed for a while.

[Tony Reali]

dirk = choker in plain english.

can't count on him for anything.

fify

[TheSullyMonster]

One of the things that always strikes me about watching early 80s games is how stick-thin all the players are now. They all have the builds of marathon runners unlike todays players who are often built like brick outhouses. At times I've thought that today's athletes would outmuscle those relatively waiflike dudes of yore.


A lot of it is nutrition and training advances. The size/athleticism differences from the past to now aren't limited to just basketball.

Prime Shaq vs. Howard is no contest. Sure, Dwight makes Greek sculptures look scrawny. But is he any stronger than Shaq was? Probably not.

[Kai]

http://i45.tinypic.com/1605y86.jpg

Yes I know it doesn't matter if he's not on the court :(

[Pelicans78]

Howard has a big upper body, but his legs and pelvis aren't nearly as big. That's one of the reasons he has trouble posting up. He get there one day, but until then he won't ever lead a team to a championship.

Lebron could easily be a good post player if he worked on his game. He has the physical tools to be a dominate post player. Instead he tries to be like MJ and Kobe despite being 2-3 inches taller and 30-40 pounds heavier. IMO, Lebron should either play PG or PF in this league.

[ducks]

he needs a healthy A. Bynum to look great