magic johnson either the coach needs to go or the players

[ducks]

down 0-2 you have to come out with energy and with everything you got
the message was not made or turned out
and he ripped the magic for getting rid of hedo:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol

[lefty]

Johnson is such a fucktard

It's Otis Smith's fault

Hedo, Lee and Alston? yes yes yes

VC and Barnes? Hell NO


Magic is either an idiot, or is pissed at Orlando because Boston will get tons of rest before shitting on his Lakers :lmao

[Cane]

It was a dumbass gamble to get rid of players from your Finals starting lineup.

Hedo's contract is bad but so is VC's. VC only has 5 assists for the series...Game 7 last year, Hedo had 25 pts/12 assists. He moved the bal welll; Hedo's not an all star but he was a damn good fit for them. Hedo was also a better closer.

Now we see why Orlando wanted to get Sheed or McDyess as well since Lewis is a horrible match up against Boston and probably LA too. Can you imagine if you had a frontcourt of Jamison and Lewis? :lmao

[pauls931]

Johnson is a dumbass, but I think he's right. This was a loaded squad and they rolled over and died, not like the suns who are flat out over matched. Orlando should've been the team coming out of the east this year.

[Giuseppe]

Johnson is a dumbass, but I think he's right.

:rolleyes

[Capt Bringdown]

Just goes to show you how lame the Leastern conference was last year - and this year too.
Western conference ain't that much better.

Celtics and Lakers are the only teams capable of playing something that resembles real basketball, so they're going to meet in the finals.

The Magic ain't that tough of a nut to crack: Just 3 point gimmickery and a low-skilled post player.

[mogrovejo]

Jesus Christ, what are these retards going to say when LeBron James or Howard lead a team to the title? Because sooner or later it's going to happen. LOL at the concept that unless you win you aren't a contender and you can't win. For how long have these knownothings been following the NBA?

[Giuseppe]

Jesus Christ, what are these retards going to say when LeBron James or Howard lead a team to the title?

Somebody sent 'em the codes for the video game.

[JamStone]

I don't think last year's Magic team gets past Boston this year either. Now, they might put up a better challenge because I do think Hedo's playmaking ability at least gave the offense a little more diversity. But I also don't blame the Magic for not giving Hedo the ridiculous contract he got with Toronto. Think Toronto is happy about that contract?

To me, Orlando is a good team in today's NBA but obviously not as good as some made them out to be. When your offense is all three point shooting and then dumping it down to a guy in the post with extremely limited post skills who is not even a good passer, then I think it's going to be tough when you face good teams that play good defense. Orlando doesn't get past Boston last year if Boston had a relatively healthy KG. And this year when they went on that "amazing" last 30 games and finished Charlotte and Atlanta easily and had guys like Hollinger drooling all over himself, they simply didn't take into account that they weren't playing very good teams who could defend them.

Dwight Howard doesn't really look the part of franchise superstar. Not at all. It's too bad, but it is true. The NBA is really lacking quality centers today. The two best centers in the league are probably guys that insist they are power forwards... Pau and Duncan.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Why the hell are Turkoglu and Lee so much better than VC? They would have lost to Boston last year if Boston was healthy just like the Magic are doing right now. They needed 7 games to beat a worn down team that needed 7 games to beat Chicago. Boston would be up 3-0 in this series regardless of whether or not Orlando has VC or Turkoglu.

[dallasmavsnfuego214]

Jesus Christ, what are these retards going to say when LeBron James or Howard lead a team to the title? Because sooner or later it's going to happen. LOL at the concept that unless you win you aren't a contender and you can't win. For how long have these knownothings been following the NBA?

Srsly, this board is like the all time KING of over-exaggeration.

Dwight Howard was widely regarded as the best big man in the league, all of a sudden after one game, some fucktard states he's not even a top 25 player.

Gimme a break people :rolleyes

[Giuseppe]

Why the hell are Turkoglu and Lee so much better than VC? They would have lost to Boston last year if Boston was healthy just like the Magic are doing right now. They needed 7 games to beat a worn down team that needed 7 games to beat Chicago. Boston would be up 3-0 in this series regardless of whether or not Orlando has VC or Turkoglu.

^Nice comeback, youngster, after that Bill Russell Fiasco.:rolleyes

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Btw this Magic team is an example of how small ball, pick and roll, 3 point basketball doesn't work. Boston is exploiting their lack of size at PF like no other. If Howard's ever gonna win a title he's gonna need a big man playing next to him who plays the tough, physical interior D he doesn't. The problem there is Howard's lack of offensive tools makes it so he needs spacing to be productive.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

^Nice comeback, youngster, after that Bill Russell Fiasco.:rolleyes


:lol that's called trolling Cubby, I just like to piss the old timers off who hate hearing Russell is a rich man's Ben Wallace.

[dallasmavsnfuego214]

^Nice comeback, youngster, after that Bill Russell Fiasco.:rolleyes

Contributes a lot more here than you do

Outside of gay 1-liners that rival lefty in levels of epic-failness what do you bring?

[Giuseppe]

Contributes a lot more here than you do

Outside of gay 1-liners that rival lefty in levels of epic-failness what do you bring?

Your mother's beaver.

& 15 NBA World Titles, daddy-O.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Contributes a lot more here than you do

Outside of gay 1-liners that rival lefty in levels of epic-failness what do you bring?

In fairness to him he contributes a lot more than Lefty. He has his own shtick and when being serious knows a lot about basketball. Lefty just makes terrible jokes.

[Giuseppe]

In fairness to him he contributes a lot more than Lefty. He has his own shtick and when being serious knows a lot about basketball. Lefty just makes terrible jokes.

Thanks son.

Love always,

- Dad

[mogrovejo]

Btw this Magic team is an example of how small ball, pick and roll, 3 point basketball doesn't work. Boston is exploiting their lack of size at PF like no other. If Howard's ever gonna win a title he's gonna need a big man playing next to him who plays the tough, physical interior D he doesn't. The problem there is Howard's lack of offensive tools makes it so he needs spacing to be productive.

Rarely have someone said so much nonsense in so few words.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Rarely have someone said so much nonsense in so few words.


Neat! When a team wins a title playing 4 perimeter players at once and having no half court offense other than pick and rolls, I'll admit I'm wrong.

[Giuseppe]

DUNCAN is correct here, Mo.

[JamStone]

Neat! When a team wins a title playing 4 perimeter players at once and having no half court offense other than pick and rolls, I'll admit I'm wrong.

They don't even have a good pick-and-roll in my opinion. When the threat of the rolling man is either "popping" for a jumper instead of rolling towards the basket or a guy they aren't going to pass it to anyway, it's not as tough to defend the play. Orlando's pick-and-rolls are more "pick-to-screen" so I can shoot a jumper. Look at Jameer run a pick-and-roll, and tell me he doesn't want to get that pick and shoot the jumper every single time. It's more "pick-and-pop" or "pick-to-screen-so-I-can-shoot-the-jumper."

Orlando's offense is really "let's play hot potato out on the perimeter until someone feels like chucking a three point shot" sprinkled with a little bit of "dump it down to Dwight so he doesn't feel left out and people think we actually try to post him up."

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Orlando's offense is really "let's play hot potato out on the perimeter until someone feels like chucking a three point shot" sprinkled with a little bit of "dump it down to Dwight so he doesn't feel left out and people think we actually try to post him up."

:lol with the occasional VC drive.

It'll be interesting to see what they do, but at this point Orlando should know Rashard Lewis at PF does not and will not work. It played a huge role in why they lost to LA last year and is a huge reason why Boston is beating them right now. :lol Glen Davis Boston's leading scorer.

[JamStone]

:lol that's called trolling Cubby, I just like to piss the old timers off who hate hearing Russell is a rich man's Ben Wallace.

What was your Bill Russell comment? I didn't catch it.

But based on the Ben Wallace reference, I'd like to know cuz I have a feeling I have a similar stance on Bill Russell.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

What was your Bill Russell comment? I didn't catch it.

But based on the Ben Wallace reference, I'd like to know cuz I have a feeling I have a similar stance on Bill Russell.


I said Bill Russell is overrated as fuck for being able to dominate a bunch of 6'5" honkies and wouldn't be much more than Ben Wallace in today's NBA.

[duhoh]

Orlando's offense is really "let's play hot potato out on the perimeter until someone feels like chucking a three point shot" sprinkled with a little bit of "dump it down to Dwight so he doesn't feel left out and people think we actually try to post him up."

how true :toast

but yeah, howard didn't have just one bad game. he's had quite a bit. he's been QQing so much lately, and shut up and play. it's so easy to get into his head.

in previous years, a healthy yao raped howard. but that's probably because houston was actually well-coached and disciplined at the time :lol

[Mavs_man_41]

I said Bill Russell is overrated as fuck for being able to dominate a bunch of 6'5" honkies and wouldn't be much more than Ben Wallace in today's NBA.

which was absolutely correct, don't back down from your stance now. being ben wallace seems like more the likely scenario than "he would have learned to shoot and use his left hand in todays nba! and he would be way faster and stronger too!" i didn't know anyone prevented him from going to the gym and shooting and working on his left, but apparently so.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

which was absolutely correct, don't back down from your stance now. being ben wallace seems like more the likely scenario than "he would have learned to shoot and use his left hand in todays nba! and he would be way faster and stronger too!" i didn't know anyone prevented him from going to the gym and shooting and working on his left, but apparently so.

That argument was absolutely ridiculous :lol. "He would have worked on his game more now! The mindset then was to suck on offense and be a terrible shooter!"

[Mavs_man_41]

yup, when i went and hooped at the park the other day and someone asked me if i was left handed because they kept overplaying my right hand and i'd take them to the hole lefty, it was all because i have obviously had the benefit of today's superior nba coaching!

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

yup, when i went and hooped at the park the other day and someone asked me if i was left handed because they kept overplaying my right hand and i'd take them to the hole lefty, it was all because i have obviously had the benefit of today's superior nba coaching!


Seriously dude, when you've got a bum like Red fuckin Auerbach as your coach, how the fuck are you supposed to learn how to shoot a left handed layup or make your free throws. Talk to me when Bill Russell was coached by someone who the coach of the year award was named after.

[JamStone]

I said Bill Russell is overrated as fuck for being able to dominate a bunch of 6'5" honkies and wouldn't be much more than Ben Wallace in today's NBA.

Lol, ok. I wouldn't have gone that far but I agree that he is, just not necessarily for those reasons. It wasn't all 6'5 white guys back then. And while he didn't completely shut him down, Russell did do a great job against Wilt.

I would agree that he very similar to a Ben Wallace and that's why he's overrated. Not because he dominated small white guys, but because he actually was a very poor offensive player. Shot 44% from the field as a center, a Shaq or Ben like 56% from the free throw line. Never averaged 20 points and only averaged as many points as he did because of the pace of the Celtics back then. All the championships do in fact ignore his offensive ineptitude.

But, your comment might be a little more harsh than I would make lol.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You could also say the rebounds he averaged was also inflated due to pace of play. His rookie year almost 3 players on that team averaged double figure rebounding. There's no way that would happen in today's NBA.

[Giuseppe]

41, Jammie, & Duncan all need an enema, immediately.

I'll have Ln administer it. He ain't shit since Game 3 of the Boston/Cleveland series so he knows whence he speaks.

[MateoNeygro]

OVERATED PERIOD END OF STORY. However, we can't blame him. He dominated on Defense.

[Giuseppe]

OVERATED PERIOD END OF STORY. However, we can't blame him. He dominated on Defense.

Hey, dummy, that's how rings are won/Defense.

[Killakobe81]

I don't think last year's Magic team gets past Boston this year either. Now, they might put up a better challenge because I do think Hedo's playmaking ability at least gave the offense a little more diversity. But I also don't blame the Magic for not giving Hedo the ridiculous contract he got with Toronto. Think Toronto is happy about that contract?

To me, Orlando is a good team in today's NBA but obviously not as good as some made them out to be. When your offense is all three point shooting and then dumping it down to a guy in the post with extremely limited post skills who is not even a good passer, then I think it's going to be tough when you face good teams that play good defense. Orlando doesn't get past Boston last year if Boston had a relatively healthy KG. And this year when they went on that "amazing" last 30 games and finished Charlotte and Atlanta easily and had guys like Hollinger drooling all over himself, they simply didn't take into account that they weren't playing very good teams who could defend them.

Dwight Howard doesn't really look the part of franchise superstar. Not at all. It's too bad, but it is true. The NBA is really lacking quality centers today. The two best centers in the league are probably guys that insist they are power forwards... Pau and Duncan.

Preach on, Jamstone!

[JamStone]

Hey, dummy, that's how rings are won/Defense.

Where do you rank Bruce Bowen among championship wing players?

Right next to Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant the way Bill Russell is slotted next to Wilt and Kareem?

[JamStone]

You mean to tell me a guy that dominated an era, won 11 titles, and coached two of those titles is overrated?

Yes, because he was a poor offensive player.

And revisionist history chooses to ignore that fact because of all the championships.

[Giuseppe]

Yes, because he was a poor offensive player.

And revisionist history chooses to ignore that fact because of all the championships.

But, Jammie, that's the beauty of Russell, he impacted his Championships thru his commitment and premier execution of defense. That's the true wonder of playing defense:::nobody can stop you. You're in control. That's such a relief to a professional athlete:::the knowledge that what you're doing can't be controlled. You get 5 guys doing that like last nite in Boston and we'll play Hell getting it stopped in the Finals.

[Capt Bringdown]

Yes, because he was a poor offensive player.

And revisionist history chooses to ignore that fact because of all the championships.

Russell also won 2 consecutive NCAA championships. One of only 4 players in NBA history to win a NCAA and NBA championship back-to-back. Also picked up an Olympic Gold medal in addition to his 11 NBA championships.

Anyone who says Russell is overrated is not qualified to be a fan.

[jag]

Where do you rank Bruce Bowen among championship wing players?

Right next to Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant the way Bill Russell is slotted next to Wilt and Kareem?

But...but...uh, rings

[JamStone]

Since when does overrated = bad?

Bill Russell is the greatest "winner" in the history of sports.

He's still overrated because people don't remember that he was a bad offensive player. Again, he shot 44% from the field as a center. Can you imagine a center in today's NBA shooting 44% from the field and being called a superstar? People bash Kobe for shooting under 45% and he's a perimeter player. What's worse, Bill Russell shot worse in the playoffs. In two of those Boston championship runs, Bill Russell shot under 37% from the field. In fact, I'd go so far as to say his lack of offense made things tougher for the Celtics. And that's saying a lot since they won so much. And it wasn't like Ben Wallace who knew he sucked on offense and didn't take a lot of shots. Bill Russell was still taking 10-12 field goal attempts per game. He was getting touches. And realize this was also in an era of basketball where defense wasn't exactly stifling.

Anyone who thinks by calling Bill Russell that I'm saying he sucked is misguided. Bill Russell is still an all-time great because of his dominance on defense. But that doesn't mean he can't be overrated. He is.

[JamStone]

I didn't say Russell wasn't a superstar.

[JamStone]

You can easily compare Ben Wallace to Bill Russell as far as skill set and impact defensively. Don't sell Ben Wallace short. As far as winning goes, you can't compare anyone to Bill Russell. I haven't taken away anything from Bill Russell's legacy or the fact that he was the greatest winner of all time. Calling him overrated has to do with the fact people ignore that he was a poor offensive player. You look at people making lists of greatest players of all time, you'll often see him at or near the top of the list. I think it's overrating him. He was a great winner, a great competitor, and a superstar in his era because of the winning. He is also overrated.

If he's one of the best players in the history of the league, then Robert Horry and Dennis Rodman should at least be in the discussion of top 50 players in the league. If you could take Russell or Hakeem, who do you take? If you could take Russell or Duncan, who would you take? I'd take the latter in each case but most people rate Russell as a better player.

To me, winner does not = player.

[BUMP]

To sum this all up.

Bill Russell in his era was a beast and the best player in the league.

The league was obviously weaker back then.

If he were to somehow be in the NBA today with the same build, same talent, same everything he had back then, he would be a borderline all star. If you match up his talent and playing ability to other big men in their prime in different eras, he's not nearly as good.

Its not hard to understand people..

[Giuseppe]

Bill Russell in his era was a beast and the best player in the league.

The league was obviously weaker back then.

That's nonsense, BUMP. The league would be naturally stronger back then. Rampant expansion has only diluted the talent level.

[Bob Lanier]

If he's one of the best players in the history of the league, then Robert Horry and Dennis Rodman should at least be in the discussion of top 50 players in the league.
Well, Rodman should be, but you ignore that Russell was by far the best player on his team when you base your argument on this kind of "lulz steve kerr" sensationalism, as

Where do you rank Bruce Bowen among championship wing players?ignores the difference in importance between pivots and wings.

I'd agree that he's overrated as well, but not for the same reasons that this Jew posits, nor for yours.

[Capt Bringdown]

If he's one of the best players in the history of the league, then Robert Horry and Dennis Rodman should at least be in the discussion of top 50 players in the league.


If anything's overrated, it's your own belief that you know anything about basketball. Not being personal, but anyone who's not crystal clear about Russell's status as one of the best players in NBA history is simply pig ignorant.

Examine his game with a fine tooth comb if you will, but don't be so blind as to put what you find in context. In Russell's case, the context is the greatest champion of all time.

[BUMP]

The league would be naturally stronger back then.

http://www.sadtrombone.com/

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Bx5f-PMBi1s/Se3KBG69mpI/AAAAAAAAAWA/C9CG1FAjMHg/s400/holy-facepalm.jpg

[Cane]

Since when does overrated = bad?

Bill Russell is the greatest "winner" in the history of sports.

He's still overrated because people don't remember that he was a bad offensive player.

Anyone who thinks by calling Bill Russell that I'm saying he sucked is misguided. Bill Russell is still an all-time great because of his dominance on defense. But that doesn't mean he can't be overrated. He is.

I think people very much remember that Bill Russell wasn't known for his offense. Thats why you always hear talk about his defense, IQ, teamwork, intangibles, and winning mentality above anything else. People generally don't harp on a player's negatives if they have the career and the well-liked personality that Russell has but that doesn't mean his weaknesses aren't acknowledged.

So...if people realize Russell's weaknesses and the context of his career/era...is he still overrated?

[JamStone]

Is Russell top 10? Judging by your posts, I'd assume not. I can take your exact same argument and claim Magic and Bird are overrated because their defense was not as good as some of the other greats that are in the top 10.

Because of his winning, Russell is around top 10 for me but probably not in the top 10. The unprecedented success he had still ranks him high, but I do disagree with people listing him as a top 5 player with the likes of Jordan and Wilt and Oscar. And as I mentioned earlier, I would rank both Hakeem and Tim Duncan as better players. I guess it goes back to how you define "greatness." Winning absolutely factors into the evaluation, but not sure I agree with how much weight some people give it compared to actual talent. Winning still takes more than one player.

As for Magic, yeah he wasn't great on defense but I think he made up for it with his rebounding and steals so that he wasn't a complete liability. I don't think Magic was as poor a defender as Bill Russell was as poor an offensive player, but it's certainly debatable. I guess I am more critical of players who are poor offensive players than I am of players who have defensive liabilities, right or wrong. Shrugs.

And I think Bird was actually a pretty good team defender.




I think people very much remember that Bill Russell wasn't known for his offense. Thats why you always hear talk about his defense, IQ, teamwork, intangibles, and winning mentality above anything else. People generally don't harp on a player's negatives if they have the career and the well-liked personality that Russell has but that doesn't mean his weaknesses aren't acknowledged.

So...if people realize Russell's weaknesses and the context of his career/era...is he still overrated?

That's what I'm saying. I don't think people acknowledge or realize it. They simply think because of all the championships and the history of his teams beating Wilt's teams that Bill Russell was a great and complete player. That's why I think a lot of people overrate him.

If they acknowledged his weaknesses on offense, I don't think he'd be as highly regarded. And if that were the case, no, he wouldn't be overrated.

[JamStone]

Well, Rodman should be, but you ignore that Russell was by far the best player on his team when you base your argument on this kind of "lulz steve kerr" sensationalism, as
ignores the difference in importance between pivots and wings.

I'd agree that he's overrated as well, but not for the same reasons that this Jew posits, nor for yours.

Russell was the best defender on those Celtics teams. He was the best player in much the same way Ben Wallace was the best player on the Detroit Pistons from 2002-2007. Bill Russell made the most impact on defense and was the heart and leader of the team. He never led the team in scoring. In most of those seasons, he was only the fourth leading scorer on the team. He is remembered as the best player because he is regarded as the main reason they won all those titles. Russell and those Celtics teams are a very unique team in those regards. Not many other great teams had that same dynamic where the best player was such a weak offensive player.

And that's why I used the Bruce Bowen example. You're right, the difference in importance between pivots and wings is significant. But, you look down the history of the NBA, you won't find a great championship big man who was so weak on offense. You just won't. Had no exact comparison to give to make the point I was offering.




If anything's overrated, it's your own belief that you know anything about basketball. Not being personal, but anyone who's not crystal clear about Russell's status as one of the best players in NBA history is simply pig ignorant.

Examine his game with a fine tooth comb if you will, but don't be so blind as to put what you find in context. In Russell's case, the context is the greatest champion of all time.

I don't take things on here personal. You are more than entitled to your opinion that I am pig ignorant. Your opinion. More power to you.

I have stated and I will repeat that Bill Russell is still one of the greatest players of all time. His status as one of the best is not in question. Rather, how highly he's regarded is what I call into question. Saying he's probably not a top 10 player is my opinion. Player. Individual greatness. As a winner, as a champion, I am right in line with anyone who says he was and is the greatest winner and champion in sports history. That's not why I think he's overrated. I think people who think as an individual player he ranks as among the greatest are overrating him. Winning, and especially winning championships, does not rest on one player alone. Teammates and coaching have a great deal of impact on that. For me, evaluating an individual player and how good he is does not consist of the same evaluation.

Bill Russell, greatest champion of all time in sports history.
Bill Russell, borderline top 10 individual talent in NBA history.

It's an easy distinction that I've been making this entire time.

[mogrovejo]

You could also say the rebounds he averaged was also inflated due to pace of play. His rookie year almost 3 players on that team averaged double figure rebounding. There's no way that would happen in today's NBA.

Yeah, the thing is that he was so dominant as a rebounder relatively to others who were playing at the same pace.


That argument was absolutely ridiculous :lol. "He would have worked on his game more now! The mindset then was to suck on offense and be a terrible shooter!"


Seriously dude, when you've got a bum like Red fuckin Auerbach as your coach, how the fuck are you supposed to learn how to shoot a left handed layup or make your free throws. Talk to me when Bill Russell was coached by someone who the coach of the year award was named after.

The reason today players are way better than Russell and his peers, including Chamberlain, is solely because of superior training and coaching - especially at the developmental stages but also through out their NBA career.

Why do you think it is? A genetic evolution? In 40 years? If you do, then evolutionary biology is not your thing.

The natural abilities players from different eras have are the same. Players now are better because (1) there's more intensive scouting/recruiting of potential players (2) and essentially, because they practice a lot more, with much better guidance, since a much earlier age.

40 years ago ambidextrous players were extremely rare, even among guards. Cousy was one and only because he broke his right hand in an accident. Today every 12-13 years old kid is told to practice with his off-hand. To dribble around with his off-hand till he gets comfortable with the ball. And then he keeps adding. But stuff that today are fundamentals kids learn at a young age nobody knew about at that point in time. The proper way of sliding, the correct shooting motion, the importance of the follow through. Basketball fundamentals weren't revealed by Naimsmith. They are the product of a very slow evolution.

Just like in many other human activities, from science to art, the secret is in the accumulation of knowledge.

This is valid for the skill-set of individual players and for team strategies.

Same thing happened with the 3pt shot. In the first season the league shot 28% from the 3 pt line while shooting 1/8 of the 3pt shots they shoot nowadays. Do you think those guys were just naturally bad shooters? Bullshit, they just didn't have the practice. Heck, Bird shoot below 30% in 4 of his first 5 seasons... and by the end of the decade he was a lights out shooter.

Give the greats of that era the coaching, the incentives to work all the time, the nutritional/tactical knowledge that current players have available and most of them would be equally great in this era.

----


I doubt people comparing Russell to Ben Wallace have seen a single minute of Russell playing, even with all the re-runs in ESPN classic. A single minute of footage. I can't prove it, but I know and they know this is true. The first two things that you notice when watching Bill Russelll are (a) his athleticism, his fastness (b) his big and soft hands, his ability to just put his hand close to the basketball and...slurp... the ball was on his hand and wasn't going anywhere. Wallace has hands of stone compared to Russell.

What Bill Russell lacked was touch, something for example Chamberlain (or Tom Heinsohn or Pettit) had- pretty much like Dwight Howard.

[Ghazi]

Another masterpiece by mogrovejo :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:

[mogrovejo]

No wonder Ghazi wants LeBron playing for his team, he's great recognizing talent.

[Ghazi]

:toast

[mogrovejo]

Neat! When a team wins a title playing 4 perimeter players at once and having no half court offense other than pick and rolls, I'll admit I'm wrong.

Do guys like Odom and Horry count as perimeter oriented 4s?

Every NBA team relies heavily on the pick'n'roll for their half-court offense. Even if it's only to open things up and force the defense to commit to something.

Orlando's problem is that they rely a lot on the transition game + inside/out game from post-ups to generate offense, to generate the spot-up situations which is where most of their points come from.

Let's not pretend that Orlando's offense isn't good when they have been the 2nd best offensive team in the league and playoffs just because of a single series.

Cleveland had a similar problem with Boston. They used Shaq in the post too much, that stalled their offense because Boston defends the post so well.

Boston is tough to beat if their opponent relies a lot on post play to generate offense - their post defense is just too good. Teams with superior dribble driving + multiple isolation threats from the perimeter have a much better chance.

[Magic_Johnson]

Johnson is such a fucktard

It's Otis Smith's fault

Hedo, Lee and Alston? yes yes yes

VC and Barnes? Hell NO


Magic is either an idiot, or is pissed at Orlando because Boston will get tons of rest before shitting on his Lakers :lmao


Johnson is a dumbass

fuck you both
5>4
5>0

[itzsoweezee]

No team is going to win a championship with Rashard Lewis as their starting power forward.

Van Gundy's lineups make no sense to me. You've got Brandon Bass and Ryan Anderson, two quality, tough, power forwards, and Stan chooses to play scrub-ass Rashard Lewis.

[JoeTait75]

Cleveland had a similar problem with Boston. They used Shaq in the post too much, that stalled their offense because Boston defends the post so well.

Boston is tough to beat if their opponent relies a lot on post play to generate offense - their post defense is just too good. Teams with superior dribble driving + multiple isolation threats from the perimeter have a much better chance.

I still think Cleveland could have beaten Boston had they gone small, as they did late in the regular season, and not tried to force-feed Shaq. Against an outstanding post defender in Kendrick Perkins it was a bankrupt strategy.

Orlando doesn't match up very well with Boston primarily because of the Perkins factor. Hedo and Courtney Lee wouldn't help them here.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Let's not pretend that Orlando's offense isn't good when they have been the 2nd best offensive team in the league and playoffs just because of a single series.


The Suns' had the best offense in the regular season, would you say it's built to win a championship?

[Ghazi]

The Suns' had the best offense in the regular season, would you say it's built to win a championship?

Yes

[mogrovejo]

I still think Cleveland could have beaten Boston had they gone small, as they did late in the regular season, and not tried to force-feed Shaq. Against an outstanding post defender in Kendrick Perkins it was a bankrupt strategy.

Orlando doesn't match up very well with Boston primarily because of the Perkins factor. Hedo and Courtney Lee wouldn't help them here.

I agree. I don't know if they'd win but they'd have a much better chance if Shaq+Jamison had played much less and Varejão+Hickson had played a lot more (especially AV). Should win if Varejao was healthy and playing well.



The Suns' had the best offense in the regular season, would you say it's built to win a championship?

Their offense? Sure, why not? Their offense has been the 2nd best in the post-season as well. The team overall isn't built to win a championship because they have the worst defense of all playoff teams by far. But Orlando's defense is elite and is still playing as such.

[mogrovejo]

No team is going to win a championship with Rashard Lewis as their starting power forward.

Van Gundy's lineups make no sense to me. You've got Brandon Bass and Ryan Anderson, two quality, tough, power forwards, and Stan chooses to play scrub-ass Rashard Lewis.

Bass specialized himself in long 2s, a shot nobody likes, doesn't pass the ball and never learned Orlando's defensive scheme. If you don't know your rotations you won't earn many minutes under SVG.

I like Ryan Anderson a lot. Maybe he should be playing more. I actually think he deserves the chance to start for some team next season. But come on, he has 10 inches on Rondo and lost a rebound to him yesterday. Rondo just outjumped him to the ball. He's a good offensive player, but tough?

[Cane]

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x85/nastynasir87/d12svg.gif

From that clip alone it looks like what Magic said might be a legitimate topic :downspin:

[Ghazi]

lol did someone call Brandon bass tough.

[LnGrrrR]

Because of his winning, Russell is around top 10 for me but probably not in the top 10. The unprecedented success he had still ranks him high, but I do disagree with people listing him as a top 5 player with the likes of Jordan and Wilt and Oscar.

You're willing to discount Russell's achievements because of the era, but not Wilt? That doesn't seem to make sense to me. Does the fact that Russell effectively denied Wilt multiple times have any sway?


I guess I am more critical of players who are poor offensive players than I am of players who have defensive liabilities, right or wrong.

Fair enough. I would say that before Russell, defense wasn't deemed as important as offense. Russell was an intimidating presence, and sometimes stats just don't tell the whole story.

[JamStone]

You're willing to discount Russell's achievements because of the era, but not Wilt? That doesn't seem to make sense to me. Does the fact that Russell effectively denied Wilt multiple times have any sway?

I find it hard to discount a guy that averages 50 PPG for an entire season, regardless of any era. Wilt shot 54% from the field, a full 10% better than Russell. However, I would be more than willing to discredit Wilt's rebounding just like Russell's rebounding by saying those rebounding numbers were a major product of the era.




Fair enough. I would say that before Russell, defense wasn't deemed as important as offense. Russell was an intimidating presence, and sometimes stats just don't tell the whole story.

Also fair. Guess just my personal opinion.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Bass should be starting, with Anderson backing him up. Lewis should start at the 3, and let the rest fall in place.


+1 that's what I thought Orlando's plan was. I didn't think Matt Barnes would be their leading minute getter at SF.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Yes


You also think it's a fluke when someone in the NBA makes wide open shots.

[lefty]

At the beginning of the 1981–82 season (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981%E2%80%9382_NBA_season), Johnson had a heated dispute with Westhead, who Johnson said made the Lakers "slow" and "predictable".[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Johnson#cite_note-32) After Johnson demanded to be traded, Lakers owner Jerry Buss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Buss) fired Westhead and replaced him with Riley. Although Johnson denied responsibility for Westhead's firing,[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Johnson#cite_note-33) he was booed across the league, even by Lakers' fan

[mogrovejo]

I find it hard to discount a guy that averages 50 PPG for an entire season, regardless of any era. Wilt shot 54% from the field, a full 10% better than Russell. However, I would be more than willing to discredit Wilt's rebounding just like Russell's rebounding by saying those rebounding numbers were a major product of the era.

Also fair. Guess just my personal opinion.

Why?