The whole "Jordan needed Pippen" argument is overrated.

[D2Procon]

If Pippen was able to lead a Bulls team without Jordan into the ECF second round forcing a game 7 against the Knicks team that went into the finals, then Michael Jordan who is much better than Pippen could have taken that same team into the Finals without pippen. So IMO the argument fails.

[Killakobe81]

It's NOT that MJ NEEDED Pippen ...


BUT

He NEEDED a reliable #2 star and Pippen was one of the best in NBA history in that role ...

If you gave Jordan Drexler, Nique, Dale Ellis etc. he STILL gets titles but maybe not 6 ...

Pippen was a "near perfect fit" with MJ ...and MJ took a lot of pressure off of Pippen who probably, (despite his great playoff run without MJ)was not a true #1 ...

Phil deserves MORE credit for that than PIppen IMHO ...One of Phil's greatest coaching efforts next to keeping Kobe and Shaq from detroying the 3-peat ...

[JoeTait75]

If Pippen was able to lead a Bulls team without Jordan into the ECF second round forcing a game 7 against the Knicks team that went into the finals, then Michael Jordan who is much better than Pippen could have taken that same team into the Finals without pippen. So IMO the argument fails.

That makes no sense. Maybe it's a reading comprehension issue on my part. Let me try again... nope. Still doesn't make sense.

[Ghazi]

we still using "true #1" arguments?

Rajon Rondo's gonna be the best player on a title team this year.

[hitmanyr2k]

If Pippen was able to lead a Bulls team without Jordan into the ECF second round forcing a game 7 against the Knicks team that went into the finals, then Michael Jordan who is much better than Pippen could have taken that same team into the Finals without pippen. So IMO the argument fails.

Replace Pippen with Pete Myers in the 1993 Eastern Conference Finals and see how far Jordan gets :lol

[Killakobe81]

That makes no sense. Maybe it's a reading comprehension issue on my part. Let me try again... nope. Still doesn't make sense.

Put it this way ... Lebron with a Pippen at #2 is winning a title ...soon.

Kobe with a Pippen ditto ...Same for Wade.

Not saying any of those guys = MJ but Pippen was THAT good he just is NOT in the Bird, MAgic Jordan Duncan Kobe, Hakeem class but he was VERY good.

But Pipppen neeeded MJ more than the other way around ...without MJ Pippen may hae NEVER developed fully ... he was the one team-mate you could say MJ legitimately "made" better ...

[Giuseppe]

we still using "true #1" arguments?

Rajon Rondo's gonna be the best player on a title team this year.

Shit, I called Rondo's greatness almost a year ago and everybody said I was talkin' out my ass.

Don't even start, Ghazi.

[Killakobe81]

we still using "true #1" arguments?

Rajon Rondo's gonna be the best player on a title team this year.

Very possible ...but no way they win without Pierce coming up BIG down the stretch ...

[Killakobe81]

Shit, I called Rondo's greatness almost a year ago and everybody said I was talkin' out my ass.

Don't even start, Ghazi.

Me too ..Cully

BUT FT's and jumper still need work but right now only Dwill is playing ahead of Rondo if I had my choice of PG's ...

[JoeTait75]

Replace Pippen with Pete Myers in the 1993 Eastern Conference Finals and see how far Jordan gets :lol

Replace Pippen with Pete Myers in 1988 and '89 and Jordan doesn't even get by Cleveland, IMO. Scottie was... large in some very closely contested games throughout both of those series.

[D2Procon]

What Im saying if Pippen alone got the Bulls in the second round pushing a game 7 against the eventual finalists Knicks, then how would have Jordan done if you took pippen out of that 1994 team and replaced him with Jordan.

[Bob Lanier]

That makes no sense. Maybe it's a reading comprehension issue on my part. Let me try again... nope. Still doesn't make sense.
:tu

[hitmanyr2k]

Put it this way ... Lebron with a Pippen at #2 is winning a title ...soon.

Kobe with a Pippen ditto ...Same for Wade.

Not saying any of those guys = MJ but Pippen was THAT good he just is NOT in the Bird, MAgic Jordan Duncan Kobe, Hakeem class but he was VERY good.

But Pipppen neeeded MJ more than the other way around ...without MJ Pippen may hae NEVER developed fully ... he was the one team-mate you could say MJ legitimately "made" better ...

Jordan certainly helped Pippen to become a better player but only to a certain extent. Playing against the best everyday in practice is going to help you get better but at the same time it can kill you. Not everyone Jordan played with turned to gold lol. In fact it usually worked out just the opposite. Pippen had to want to get better, work on his game in the offseason and, improve...otherwise he would have ended up another Lamar Odom. a borderline all-star type.

During the first 3 peat I would say Pippen was good but he didn't truly become a great player until Jordan retired. He could have sat on his 3 rings and coasted but instead he worked even harder to get better. He hit the weights (which helped on both ends of the floor), got more range on his shot, added a post game, and became an even more multi-dimensional player. All of that was done while Jordan was swinging and missing at curveballs.

[Bob Lanier]

What Im saying if Pippen alone got the Bulls in the second round pushing a game 7 against the eventual finalists Knicks, then how would have Jordan done if you took pippen out of that 1994 team and replaced him with Jordan.
Probably still not have beaten the Knicks and definitely not have beaten the Rockets? So who cares?

[D2Procon]

Probably still not have beaten the Knicks and definitely not have beaten the Rockets? So who cares?

So are you saying Pippen = Jordan then?

[Bob Lanier]

So are you saying Pippen = Jordan then?
I'm going to be charitable and assume you're drunk or high, and not just an idiot.

No, I don't think Pippen was nearly as good a basketball player as Jordan. I do think that the '94 Knicks were a considerably better team than your hypothetical BJ Armstrong - Michael Jordan - Pete Myers - Horace Grant - Bill Cartwright Bulls.

[D2Procon]

I'm going to be charitable and assume you're drunk or high, and not just an idiot.

No, I don't think Pippen was nearly as good a basketball player as Jordan. I do think that the '94 Knicks were a considerably better team than your hypothetical BJ Armstrong - Michael Jordan - Pete Myers - Horace Grant - Bill Cartwright Bulls.

So let me get this straight..... You're saying Pippen is no where as near as good as Michael Jordan. Yet if Pippen took the Knicks to 7 games, you dont think Jordan who you said (Is much better than pippen) couldn't win that extra game?

[JoeTait75]

Did you see Scottie play with the Bulls, Tacker?

He was kind of an important part of those teams.

[Roddy Beaubois]

So was Jordan

[Bob Lanier]

So let me get this straight..... You're saying Pippen is no where as near as good as Michael Jordan. Yet if Pippen took the Knicks to 7 games, you dont think Jordan who you said (Is much better than pippen) couldn't win that extra game?
Do you think if the Suns had Michael Jordan instead of Steve Nash, they'd beat the Lakers this year?

[Roddy Beaubois]

way to avoid the question all thread.

[D2Procon]

Did you see Scottie play with the Bulls, Tacker?

He was kind of an important part of those teams.

Im not tacker you idiot its already been proved? and second I did watch him play especially him owning the shit out of your cavaliers. Take the broom out of your ass and stop underachieving the greatest player.

[D2Procon]

Do you think if the Suns had Michael Jordan instead of Steve Nash, they'd beat the Lakers this year?

Yes.

[JoeTait75]

Yes.

If the Minnesota Timberwolves had Michael Jordan would they win the title this year?

[Bob Lanier]

Well, OK then. If Jordan has superhuman powers, then of course he can win any game if plugged in for any other player. Jordan needs nobody.

[D2Procon]

Well, OK then. If Jordan has superhuman powers, then of course he can win any game if plugged in for any other player. Jordan needs nobody.

The disparity between Jordan and Nash is just that big.....

[D2Procon]

If the Minnesota Timberwolves had Michael Jordan would they win the title this year?

Thats a whole different scenario. Jordan obviously cant make the shitiest team in the NBA all of a sudden get a title. Thats a different argument then an already established Bulls team who just needs that player to get them over the hill.

[hitmanyr2k]

What Im saying if Pippen alone got the Bulls in the second round pushing a game 7 against the eventual finalists Knicks, then how would have Jordan done if you took pippen out of that 1994 team and replaced him with Jordan.

Who knows? There's a lot of questions. How would Jordan mesh with the new faces? Paxson and Cartwright were on their last legs and playing limited minutes. You had Kerr, Wennington, Longley (midseason trade), Blount, Myers, and Kukoc all joining the team that year. Like I was saying in my previous post, every player that played with Jordan didn't suddenly turn into gold. Jordan was an asshole and there's no telling how the players would have reacted to him. Hell, when Jordan came back to the Bulls in '95 just a few practices in he was punching Steve Kerr in the face :lol You need chemistry as much as anything to win in this league. I remember Phil Jackson saying Pippen's leadership was just as important as Jordan's on that team. It was like good cop, bad cop :lol Jordan would tear the player down and Pippen would build him back up.

[Roddy Beaubois]

The point is, that if Pippen took the Knicks to seven games its fair to think Jordan could win that extra game. Especially since three of their losses were for a combined 10 points

[D2Procon]

Well, OK then. If Jordan has superhuman powers, then of course he can win any game if plugged in for any other player. Jordan needs nobody.

Youre missing the point, If Pippen was minutes away from winning that game 7 what makes you think Jordan couldn't have won it? considering Jordan > Pippen?

[Bob Lanier]

The disparity between Jordan and Nash is just that big.....
The disparity between the Lakers and the Suns is bigger. That's the point you're refusing to accept.

Fisher > Dragic
Bryant << Jordan
Artest > Hill
Gasol >>> Stoudemire
Bynum >> Lopez
Odom >> Dudley

I'm counting a +7 > in favor of the Lakers.

[D2Procon]

The point is, that if Pippen took the Knicks to seven games its fair to think Jordan could win that extra game. Especially since three of their losses were for a combined 10 points

:tu

[hitmanyr2k]

Youre missing the point, If Pippen was minutes away from winning that game 7 what makes you think Jordan couldn't have won it? considering Jordan > Pippen?

If Jordan were in place of Pippen how do we know the Bulls even make it to a Game 7? If Jordan goes into another shooting slump (ala the '93 ECF) who's going to cover his ass? Who's going to score 25-30 to help him out?

[Killakobe81]

Jordan certainly helped Pippen to become a better player but only to a certain extent. Playing against the best everyday in practice is going to help you get better but at the same time it can kill you. Not everyone Jordan played with turned to gold lol. In fact it usually worked out just the opposite. Pippen had to want to get better, work on his game in the offseason and, improve...otherwise he would have ended up another Lamar Odom. a borderline all-star type.

I Agree you are right ... (for the MOST part) that is why I said he was one of the "few" that MJ made better. Mj gave Pip the blueprint it was on Pip to follow it and he did. I used to get SI back then and IIRC Mj encouraged Pip to hit the weights...to beat the Pistons and deal with Rodman etc. During the first 3 peat I would say Pippen was good but he didn't truly become a great player until Jordan retired. He could have sat on his 3 rings and coasted but instead he worked even harder to get better. He hit the weights (which helped on both ends of the floor), got more range on his shot, added a post game, and became an even more multi-dimensional player. All of that was done while Jordan was swinging and missing at curveballs.

I dont think he got THAT much better he just had more responsibilty thrust on him ...Pippen was already great but was a #2 ...

[JoeTait75]

Thats a whole different scenario. Jordan obviously cant make the shitiest team in the NBA all of a sudden get a title. Thats a different argument then an already established Bulls team who just needs that player to get them over the hill.

Except they weren't an established team when they got Pippen. They were coming off three consecutive sub-.500 seasons and three consecutive first-round exits, with Jordan.

In 1987-88, Pippen's rookie year, the Bulls won 50 games and beat the Cavaliers in the first round.

So not only did Jordan never win a title without Scottie Pippen, he never had a winning season or advanced out of the first round without him.

[D2Procon]

The disparity between the Lakers and the Suns is bigger. That's the point you're refusing to accept.

Fisher > Dragic
Bryant << Jordan
Artest > Hill
Gasol >>> Stoudemire
Bynum >> Lopez
Odom >> Dudley

I'm counting a +7 > in favor of the Lakers.

And your point is?

Jordan brings intangibles that could effect the whole team and make the whole team better etc so you simply can't use that argument. Ill give you an example:

2004
Shaq >> Ben Wallace
Kobe >> Rip Hamilton
Karl Malone > Rasheed Wallace
Payton = Billups (at that point)

Pistons win in 5.....

[D2Procon]

Except they weren't an established team when they got Pippen. They were coming off three consecutive sub-.500 seasons and three consecutive first-round exits, with Jordan.

In 1987-88, Pippen's rookie year, the Bulls won 50 games and beat the Cavaliers in the first round.

So not only did Jordan never win a title without Scottie Pippen, he never had a winning season or advanced out of the first round without him.

Im talking about the 1994 season.

[SomeCallMeTim]

What if Jordan's title-winning Bulls squared off against Mike Ditka?

[Biggems]

the Bulls have the Pacific NW to thank for their 90s dynasty...

Portland had the greatest draft gaffe of all time, taking Bowie instead of Jordan.

Seattle traded away Pippen to the Bulls for a cup of coffee and a flanel shirt.

[Bob Lanier]

Jordan brings intangibles that could effect the whole team and make the whole team better etc so you simply can't use that argument. Ill give you an example:

2004
Shaq >> Ben Wallace
Kobe >> Rip Hamilton
Karl Malone > Rasheed Wallace
Payton = Billups (at that point)

Pistons win in 5.....
Because the 2004 Pistons were the best defensive team ever to play, and the Lakers were lousy. The 2010 Lakers are a pretty good defensive team. You are correct to say that Jordan could make the Suns better defensively, but even Michael Jordan cannot save that frontcourt from having its ass handed to it.

[TheSullyMonster]

Shit, I called Rondo's greatness almost a year ago and everybody said I was talkin' out my ass.

Don't even start, Ghazi.

Man, what a challenge. Saying that a guy that has averaged near a triple double in the playoffs can play.:lol

I was going 'wtf' at the haters too.:toast

[MiamiHeat]

1) Pippen was a smart player out of college, and could play some defense and limited offense, but he would have never turned into the player he was without MJ. You can see many MJ moves being done by Pippen in highlights. Also, MJ's defense tips combined with Pippen's defensive mind made Pippen even better.

2) MJ made a lot of players better. Rodman was a journeyman burn out when he joined the Bulls for the 95-96 season. Rodman was seen as a headcase, a team killing cancer and EVERYONE was questioning why the Bulls are taking this guy.

MJ got Rodman to hit the weights, and Rodman poured out legendary workout sessions. MJ got the best out of him, he got him to care and take basketball seriously.

Eventually, the world started saying "Well, if you have the right Alpha Male like MJ, you can make guys like Rodman straighten out"

3) Yeah MJ was hard on his team when they fucked up. He didn't take shit from anyone. If you weren't trying your hardest, or you didn't want to play defense, MJ would take it personally.

I'd say that's the trait of a fucking winner. All great men do the same thing, they do not tolerate losers. You can call MJ an asshole if you like, but if he had been a pussy and been a nice guy, he wouldn't have 6 rings.

4) MJ took the previously draft lottery shitty Bulls to the playoffs in his rookie season and every season after that. Yeah, they got bounced by Boston twice, but Boston-Lakers were the two best in the NBA, stacked with talent. If MJ would have eliminated Boston with those shitty Bulls teams, everyone should have just quit the NBA and give him titles.

Knocking MJ for that is ridiculous. That would be like dogging LeBron with the 2005 Cavaliers for not defeating the eventual champion Spurs in the playoffs. (for your smartasses, yes EC - WC never meet in 1st round blah blah)

Lastly, to answer OP and go play some more Red Dead Redemption Free Roam,

yeah, MJ would have beaten the Knicks. That 1994 team was still a three-peat team with BJ, Horace Grant, and new additions like Kukoc etc... Jordan would have done it. Those Bulls teams lost by only a few points that year... MJ would have pulled it through.

[JamStone]

How many titles do the two threepeat Bulls get in the 2000s if you put them in the league when Shaq-Kobe and Duncan were winning titles. Do those championship Bulls win 6?

[Killakobe81]

1) Pippen was a smart player out of college, and could play some defense and limited offense, but he would have never turned into the player he was without MJ. You can see many MJ moves being done by Pippen in highlights. Also, MJ's defense tips combined with Pippen's defensive mind made Pippen even better.

2) MJ made a lot of players better. Rodman was a journeyman burn out when he joined the Bulls for the 95-96 season. Rodman was seen as a headcase, a team killing cancer and EVERYONE was questioning why the Bulls are taking this guy.

MJ got Rodman to hit the weights, and Rodman poured out legendary workout sessions. MJ got the best out of him, he got him to care and take basketball seriously.

Eventually, the world started saying "Well, if you have the right Alpha Male like MJ, you can make guys like Rodman straighten out"

3) Yeah MJ was hard on his team when they fucked up. He didn't take shit from anyone. If you weren't trying your hardest, or you didn't want to play defense, MJ would take it personally.

I'd say that's the trait of a fucking winner. All great men do the same thing, they do not tolerate losers. You can call MJ an asshole if you like, but if he had been a pussy and been a nice guy, he wouldn't have 6 rings.

4) MJ took the previously draft lottery shitty Bulls to the playoffs in his rookie season and every season after that. Yeah, they got bounced by Boston twice, but Boston-Lakers were the two best in the NBA, stacked with talent. If MJ would have eliminated Boston with those shitty Bulls teams, everyone should have just quit the NBA and give him titles.

Knocking MJ for that is ridiculous. That would be like dogging LeBron with the 2005 Cavaliers for not defeating the eventual champion Spurs in the playoffs. (for your smartasses, yes EC - WC never meet in 1st round blah blah)

Lastly, to answer OP and go play some more Red Dead Redemption Free Roam,

yeah, MJ would have beaten the Knicks. That 1994 team was still a three-peat team with BJ, Horace Grant, and new additions like Kukoc etc... Jordan would have done it. Those Bulls teams lost by only a few points that year... MJ would have pulled it through.


Some good stuff but I call bullshit on ALL the credit you gave MJ here ...especially the Rodman stuff ...but whatever.

I heard once that MJ turned water in to wine ...

MJ is the GOAT no need to go overboard ...

[JamStone]

Lmao at the notion that Jordan made Rodman. Rodman was a two time all star, two time DPOY, two time champion, four time rebounding champ, 6 time first team all defender before he ever played with Michael Jordan. If anyone, Phil Jackson deserves credit for keeping Rodman in check in Chicago. As far as his play, he was already a great player before joining Chicago.

Why didn't Jordan get Stacey King to become good? What about Pete Meyers or Scott Williams or Dennis Hopson or Cliff Levingston or Brad Sellers? All guys who were considered having good talent but never became good players. Not to mention a myriad of others who played with Jordan other than Pippen. If Jordan helped make teammates better, how come there were no other star teammates other than Pippen?

Who are all these players Jordan made better? I'm not talking about getting teammates like Steve Kerr or Paxson or BJ Armstrong open jumpers. I'm talking about actually helping make teammates become better players. Who are those players?

[MiamiHeat]

Lmao at the notion that Jordan made Rodman.


Lmao at exaggerations of things people say.

Rodman, when picked up by the Bulls in 95-96, was seen as washed up, head case that will kill chemistry in a locker room.

Fact.

[Killakobe81]

lmao at the notion that jordan made rodman. Rodman was a two time all star, two time dpoy, two time champion, four time rebounding champ, 6 time first team all defender before he ever played with michael jordan. If anyone, phil jackson deserves credit for keeping rodman in check in chicago. as far as his play, he was already a great player before joining chicago.

Why didn't jordan get stacey king to become good? What about pete meyers or scott williams or dennis hopson or cliff levingston or brad sellers? All guys who were considered having good talent but never became good players. Not to mention a myriad of others who played with jordan other than pippen. If jordan helped make teammates better, how come there were no other star teammates other than pippen?

Who are all these players jordan made better? I'm not talking about getting teammates like steve kerr or paxson or bj armstrong open jumpers. I'm talking about actually helping make teammates become better players. Who are those players?

fact

[HarlemHeat37]

The argument about guys making their teammates better is always heavily exaggerated IMO..

[JamStone]

Lmao at exaggerations of things people say.

Rodman, when picked up by the Bulls in 95-96, was seen as washed up, head case that will kill chemistry in a locker room.

Fact.

Washed up? He had just won his fourth rebounding title the previous season and was first team all defense. And he was on a 62-20 San Antonio team.

It's true he was a headcase, but I don't know where you're getting that he was washed up or a journeyman. The Spurs were only his second team in his NBA career. Make stuff up much?

Jordan wasn't the main or only reason Rodman was kept in check in Chicago. Jackson deserves more credit. Heck, Jack Haley deserves more credit than Jordan.

[MiamiHeat]

Phil deserves credit, but so does Jordan.

Point being MJ did make him better.

[JamStone]

You haven't addressed your claims that Rodman was a washed up journeyman when he got traded to the Bulls. Rebounding champ and first team all defense the previous season for a 62-20 Spurs team. Averaged 16.8 RPG. The Spurs was the second team in his NBA career. Washed up journeyman?

And can you list all those players Michael Jordan made better other than Pippen? And again, not getting players wide open jumpers in games. Actually make players better like you suggest he did with Pippen. Who are all these players? You said there were a lot of them.

[JamStone]

Also...



3) Yeah MJ was hard on his team when they fucked up. He didn't take shit from anyone. If you weren't trying your hardest, or you didn't want to play defense, MJ would take it personally.

I'd say that's the trait of a fucking winner. All great men do the same thing, they do not tolerate losers. You can call MJ an asshole if you like, but if he had been a pussy and been a nice guy, he wouldn't have 6 rings.

So you like that trait in Kobe Bryant? Just curious. That makes Kobe a fucking winner, right?



4) MJ took the previously draft lottery shitty Bulls to the playoffs in his rookie season and every season after that. Yeah, they got bounced by Boston twice, but Boston-Lakers were the two best in the NBA, stacked with talent. If MJ would have eliminated Boston with those shitty Bulls teams, everyone should have just quit the NBA and give him titles.

Knocking MJ for that is ridiculous. That would be like dogging LeBron with the 2005 Cavaliers for not defeating the eventual champion Spurs in the playoffs. (for your smartasses, yes EC - WC never meet in 1st round blah blah)

I would like to point out back then that the Eastern Conference had 11 teams. 8 teams still made it to the playoffs. In his rookie season, Michael Jordan led the Bulls to the playoffs with a 38-44 record. While it's still an "accomplishment," it's important to put it in context.

[stretch]

It's NOT that MJ NEEDED Pippen ...


BUT

He NEEDED a reliable #2 star and Pippen was one of the best in NBA history in that role ...

If you gave Jordan Drexler, Nique, Dale Ellis etc. he STILL gets titles but maybe not 6 ...

Pippen was a "near perfect fit" with MJ ...and MJ took a lot of pressure off of Pippen who probably, (despite his great playoff run without MJ)was not a true #1 ...

Phil deserves MORE credit for that than PIppen IMHO ...One of Phil's greatest coaching efforts next to keeping Kobe and Shaq from detroying the 3-peat ...

+1. Well put, lakerfan.