So, Lakers don't know shit about zone defences!?

[sendman]

Interesting.
http://www.cbs2.com/video/[email protected]

[pauls931]

Neither do some spurs fans asking why Nash's man Fisher was getting open shots.

[JamStone]

I think Bynum's just an idiot who doesn't pay attention in practice.

Watching the game last night, they actually did get some decent to good shots against the zone and just couldn't hit enough of them.

Sometimes people try to look too deep into the game, try to dissect it too much. When a team hits a lot of shots, any offense is going to look good. When teams struggle shooting the ball, it could be the best offense in the world and still look pedestrian.

It boggles my mind that a professional basketball player doesn't know what to do if facing the zone. Big men actually have it pretty easy. Go to the middle and find an open space. It's pretty much that simple to attack the zone. Go to the middle, let the defense react, look for open teammates cutting or spotting up once the defense collapses. If Bynum really has no clue what to do, that's more telling of him than Phil and the coaching staff not preparing for the zone.

[BadOdor]

Bynum was busy eating his fruit loops when they practiced how to deal with zone defense.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Neither do some spurs fans asking why Nash's man Fisher was getting open shots.

:lmao



Bynum was busy eating his fruit loops when they practiced how to deal with zone defense.

Sons I thought he was coo coo for coco puffs?

[da_suns_fan]

Interesting.
http://www.cbs2.com/video/[email protected]

What an arrogant little shit. Notice how he avoids eye contact and looks over the interviewers the whole time?

Evidently, he's got better things to do than talk about the game to the Laker media.

He's a total douche bag.

[JamStone]

Zone defense had a lucky game.

[SomeCallMeTim]

I think Bynum's just an idiot who doesn't pay attention in practice.

Watching the game last night, they actually did get some decent to good shots against the zone and just couldn't hit enough of them.

Last night's game was lost on the defensive end. Foul trouble by a lot of players and turnstile defense by Gasol.

[mogrovejo]

If it was that easy to get inside a zone, nobody would use them. Bigs can get position in the middle of it, but that de per se isn't enough to force a zone to collapse. I'm pretty sure Bynum knows where to go in a zone offense.


Anyway, the triangle is also a zone offense. What the Lakers use to do is to form the triangle in the weakside, instead of doing it in the strongside. Bynum's positioning would be to flash to the other mid-post once the first pass is done.

I can perfectly see Phil Jackson almost never practising a zone offense and Bynum missing those few practices due to injury. A really crisp zone offense is built through practice and implies a really good zone defense to practice against - and Jackson won't lose time coaching zone defenses. A big reason for that is that a well coached triangle offense should at least be able to create some open outside shots against the best of the zones even if they aren't able to get the ball inside. They got some of those looks yesterday, but they weren't able to make the shots.

The Lakers aren't a dependable 3pt shooting team, it was a clever move by Gentry.

[Giuseppe]

it was a clever move by Doug Collins.

The big mouth fuck.

[duncan228]

Zone defense had a lucky game.

:lol

[JamStone]

If it was that easy to get inside a zone, nobody would use them. Bigs can get position in the middle of it, but that de per se isn't enough to force a zone to collapse. I'm pretty sure Bynum knows where to go in a zone offense.


Anyway, the triangle is also a zone offense. What the Lakers use to do is to form the triangle in the weakside, instead of doing it in the strongside. Bynum's positioning would be to flash to the other mid-post once the first pass is done.

I can perfectly see Phil Jackson almost never practising a zone offense and Bynum missing those few practices due to injury. A really crisp zone offense is built through practice and implies a really good zone defense to practice against - and Jackson won't lose time coaching zone defenses. A big reason for that is that a well coached triangle offense should at least be able to create some open outside shots against the best of the zones even if they aren't able to get the ball inside. They got some of those looks yesterday, but they weren't able to make the shots.

The Lakers aren't a dependable 3pt shooting team, it was a clever move by Gentry.

If you had watched the video, Bynum specifically said he had no clue where to go against the zone.

Putting a big man in the middle of the zone where there is open space is where you start to attack the zone, unless you're content with just swinging the ball around the three point line. Can you score every single time doing that? No. But that's how you attack it. When the defense collapses, you get lanes for cutters or open jumpers out on the perimeter. That's basketball 101. That's basics. I'm sure there are more complicated ways to attack it with different zone offenses, but at the very least, a professional NBA big man should not be clueless where to go against a zone.

[sendman]

To make things clear as possible.
There are different types of zone defenses.

2:3 zone
3:2 zone
2:1:2 zone
1:3:1 zone
and some other less important combined defenses.
Each of these defenses has their strong points and each of them has its weaknesses . But each of them needs a little different approach to be dismantled.
Oh, and one more thing. Zone can not be beaten by one guy. It takes team work to be successful.

It will be interesting to see how will Lakers react.

[mogrovejo]

If you had watched the video, Bynum specifically said he had no clue where to go against the zone.

Putting a big man in the middle of the zone where there is open space is where you start to attack the zone, unless you're content with just swinging the ball around the three point line. Can you score every single time doing that? No. But that's how you attack it. When the defense collapses, you get lanes for cutters or open jumpers out on the perimeter. That's basketball 101. That's basics. I'm sure there are more complicated ways to attack it with different zone offenses, but at the very least, a professional NBA big man should not be clueless where to go against a zone.


What's "putting a big man in the middle"? What's exactly "the middle"? And the most important thing attacking a zone is not where to move but when and how to move.

So, it's not "going to the middle". It depends on his initial positioning, the positioning of the teammates, opponents and where the ball is. For example, the movement Bynum has to do attacking a zone from a triple post offense is different than the one he'd do playing for some other zone offense (in fact, knowing the triangle should be everything he needed to attack a zone, at least theoretically). And that's what he means by "I had no idea where I was supposed to be at".

I'm pretty sure Bynum understands the point is to fill the open space in the middle to force the zone to collapse, but that alone won't help him much in a particular situation.

[JamStone]

Against a zone defense, when the ball rotates to one side, the big man should flash to the high post, in the "middle of the zone" to an open area. You get a pass into him to force the defense to react. He either has a chance to attack the basket from there if the zone stays soft. If they do collapse on him, he should have one or more teammate open for jumpers or one or more teammates should cut towards the basket for a pass. That is the most basic way to attack a zone unless the offense is content to jack up jumpers. A high school big man should know this. Andrew Bynum specifically said he had no clue where to go in that clip. Apparently he doesn't understand that if he said he didn't know where to go.

I don't even know why you're arguing.

[UV Ray]

Sometimes people try to look too deep into the game, try to dissect it too much. When a team hits a lot of shots, any offense is going to look good. When teams struggle shooting the ball, it could be the best offense in the world and still look pedestrian.



:tu

[cobbler]

What's "putting a big man in the middle"? What's exactly "the middle"? And the most important thing attacking a zone is not where to move but when and how to move.

So, it's not "going to the middle". It depends on his initial positioning, the positioning of the teammates, opponents and where the ball is. For example, the movement Bynum has to do attacking a zone from a triple post offense is different than the one he'd do playing for some other zone offense. And that's what he means by "I had no idea where I was supposed to be at".

I'm pretty sure Bynum understands the point is to fill the open space in the middle to force the zone to collapse, but that alone won't help him much in a particular situation.

First off, you don't see the zone used a lot in the NBA because it is actually a very easy defense to beat. Depending on which zone is being used determines where you attack. The key with them all is to get in the middle where you distribute if it collapses or attack if it doesn't. If a 2-1-2 or 2-3 this can be accomplished by the guard penetrating and spliting the 2 defending guards. The easiest way if you have good passing bigs is to simply put him at the free throw an cut off him. In other words, you have already split the 2 defending guards. If a 1-2-2 or 1-3-1 you attack the defending guard with 2 guards to get to the middle or simply post the big at the free throw line extended (at the corner of the key). Once you are in the middle the zone collapses and any cutters will have a field day if the guy who penetrated has any passing skills. As sendman stated, a team effort is required for the spacing to take place. The keys are crisp passing, less dribbling, taking the open shot, boxing out and rebounding.

While taking a few 3's is needed, passing around the perimiter for 20 seconds and jacking a 3 as a foundation is a sure disaster in the making.

[mogrovejo]

Against a zone defense, when the ball rotates to one side, the big man should flash to the high post, in the "middle of the zone" to an open area. You get a pass into him to force the defense to react. He either has a chance to attack the basket from there if the zone stays soft. If they do collapse on him, he should have one or more teammate open for jumpers or one or more teammates should cut towards the basket for a pass. That is the most basic way to attack a zone unless the offense is content to jack up jumpers. A high school big man should know this. Andrew Bynum specifically said he had no clue where to go in that clip. Apparently he doesn't understand that if he said he didn't know where to go.

I don't even know why you're arguing.

He said he had no idea where he was supposed to be.

Here's exactly what he said:


"what's about that zone that causes you guys so much problems?"

Bynum: "we're not working our offense against it and we look like it..uhh... they hold us... I had no idea where I was supposed to be at."

And no, that's not how the Lakers attack a zone from the triangle formation. The 5 doesn't flash to the high post.

And again, you keep ignoring that more difficult than the "where" is the "when".

[mogrovejo]

Why do people keep posting banalities and generalities about attacking zones? This is about execution, retards. Crisp passing, team playing, get the ball inside and force the zone out of shape, post the bigs high and open space for cutters, bla bla bla... In the end you need to execute. If a big just stations himself at the elbow because "a big man should know his job is to attack the middle", that's not going to help much.

Bynum's point that they aren't used to play zones and therefore struggled is more than fair. In my opinion, it's also correct (in general and in this particular case).

[JamStone]

He said he had no idea where he was supposed to be.

Here's exactly what he said:


"what's about that zone that causes you guys so much problems?"

Bynum: "we're not working our offense against it and we look like it..uhh... they hold us... I had no idea where I was supposed to be at."

And no, that's not how the Lakers attack a zone from the triangle formation. The 5 doesn't flash to the high post.

And again, you keep ignoring that more difficult than the "where" is the "when".

Wow.

If they were attacking the zone with the triangle, don't you think Andrew would have known where to go?

Or do the Lakers not practice the triangle either?

[mogrovejo]

Wow.

If they were attacking the zone with the triangle, don't you think Andrew would have known where to go?

Or do the Lakers not practice the triangle either?

As I've explained before, there are some tweaks. The triangle is created in the weakside, for example.

[mogrovejo]

So we're not accustomed to playing against zone. And obviously it was noticeable tonight for the most part.

http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=63433

It seems Pau Gasol is another idiot who doesn't pay attention in practices.

Once again, individual players can perfectly know how to attack a zone in theory. Everybody does, that's pretty much a given at this level. But that's not enough.

[JamStone]

Smh.

Bynum said he didn't know where he was supposed to be at. Why do you insist it was an issue of "when?"

Bynum saying he didn't know where he was supposed to be at suggests that when the Suns started playing zone, they deviated away from the triangle, otherwise he would have known where he was supposed to be.

Anyone with even a remedial knowledge of basic basketball knows that you attack the middle of a zone defense. Bynum's confusion wasn't an issue of "when." If it were, why didn't he say, "I didn't know when I was supposed to be at."

There have been multiple people in this very thread trying to explain the zone and how you attack it to you, but for some reason you refuse to ever acquiesce to ever not knowing everything about basketball. Maybe there's some statistic on a paid website that you can say supports your argument but you don't want anyone else to know about. Have at it, Dr. Naismith.

[SomeCallMeTim]

He said he had no idea where he was supposed to be.

Here's exactly what he said:


"what's about that zone that causes you guys so much problems?"

Bynum: "we're not working our offense against it and we look like it..uhh... they hold us... I had no idea where I was supposed to be at."

And no, that's not how the Lakers attack a zone from the triangle formation. The 5 doesn't flash to the high post.

And again, you keep ignoring that more difficult than the "where" is the "when".

The 5 does flash to the high post to attack the zone in this Lakers offense -- sometimes the 4 does too... Gasol and Odom both very good at this and have a good chemistry with each other as usually the flash to the post by one is followed by that posted player receiving a pass and quickly passing to the other who has flashed to the low post or -- better yet -- the front of the hoop.

Maybe I'm misreading your post because while I disagree with your 2nd-to-last paragraph we seem to be in perfect agreement by your last.

[mogrovejo]

Smh.

Bynum said he didn't know where he was supposed to be at. Why do you insist it was an issue of "when?"

Bynum saying he didn't know where he was supposed to be at suggests that when the Suns started playing zone, they deviated away from the triangle, otherwise he would have known where he was supposed to be.

Anyone with even a remedial knowledge of basic basketball knows that you attack the middle of a zone defense. Bynum's confusion wasn't an issue of "when." If it were, why didn't he say, "I didn't know when I was supposed to be at."

There have been multiple people in this very thread trying to explain the zone and how you attack it to you, but for some reason you refuse to ever acquiesce to ever not knowing everything about basketball. Maybe there's some statistic on a paid website that you can say supports your argument but you don't want anyone else to know about. Have at it, Dr. Naismith.

:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin

Pathetic. Stop being so butthurt.


Yeah, Bynum just needs to know he should "attack the middle" and he'll be fine next time they face a zone.

Again, "attack the middle" isn't incorrect. Neither is the crisp passing. They're just banalities. Everybody wants to penetrate the zone. Do you think I or anyone else doesn't know that the goal is to get the ball inside the zone and force it to collapse? Heck, I've said it multiple times-.

LOL at retardness of thinking he's teaching people that when you face a zone you should "attack the middle". Really Sherlock? What a genius you are.

-------

And Bynum didn't know where he was supposed to be at any given moment during the possession. But maybe according to you he should just position himself in the high post and.... and what? Wait? Is that what you mean by attacking the middle? Can't you see how primitive that is?

[mogrovejo]

The 5 does flash to the high post to attack the zone in this Lakers offense -- sometimes the 4 does too... Gasol and Odom both very good at this and have a good chemistry with each other as usually the flash to the post by one is followed by that posted player receiving a pass and quickly passing to the other who has flashed to the low post or -- better yet -- the front of the hoop.

Maybe I'm misreading your post because while I disagree with your 2nd-to-last paragraph we seem to be in perfect agreement by your last.

Nope. I'm pretty sure because I've actually seen film of this in a workshop. The 5 flashes to the opposite pinch post, the 4 generally moves to the wing. The primary option is to isolate O1 or O2 versus D4 in the corner.

[JamStone]

I don't even know why I even bother.

When the ball gets rotated to one side, the strong side, to the elbow. That's when the big man on the weak side positioned at the low post flashes up to the high post, "in the middle of the zone." At that point, what the offense wants to do is pass the ball from the elbow to the big man in the high post. The big man catches the ball and then immediately turns and faces the basket. A number of things can happen at this point. The defense can remain soft on that big man and dare him to shoot. If he can consistently knock down that free throw jumper, it's a great shot. If not and the defense still plays soft, his best option is to take a dribble in to attack the zone and force the bottom defenders to come at him. Now at that point or if the defense collapses to him immediately, that opens lanes behind those bottom defenders for other players in the offense to get behind the defense and slash to the basket. That's why it's optimal for the big man to be the one in the middle, because generally he'll be able to make passes over the top of defenses. If the defense collapses from the guards, it opens jumpers out on the perimeter.

This is the most basic way to attack a zone defense. Kids in grade school know this.

It is not the only way to attack the defense, but it is the most basic and generally the initial way a team will attack the defense unless they are a great jumpshooting team and/or are content to just jack jumpers.

The fact that Bynum does not know this is an indictment on him, and that's even if the Lakers have never ever practiced how to play against the zone. He should know this. He said he didn't know where he was supposed to be at. That's unforgivable for a professional basketball player not to know that.

Enough with your condescending talk. You talk down to people like you know everything about basketball and everyone else knows nothing. In the end, you come off extremely pretentious.

[JamStone]

Nope. I'm pretty sure because I've actually seen film of this in a workshop. The 5 flashes to the opposite pinch post, the 4 generally moves to the wing. The primary option is to isolate O1 or O2 versus D4 in the corner.

And now here comes an "I attended a workshop on this" comment?

Wow. Just. Wow.

[Venti Quattro]

GASOL is THE KEY to breaking the Phoenix Zone.

I guess cobbler said it here in another thread.

[mogrovejo]

I don't even know why I even bother.

When the ball gets rotated to one side, the strong side, to the elbow. That's when the big man on the weak side positioned at the low post flashes up to the high post, "in the middle of the zone." At that point, what the offense wants to do is pass the ball from the elbow to the big man in the high post. The big man catches the ball and then immediately turns and faces the basket. A number of things can happen at this point. The defense can remain soft on that big man and dare him to shoot. If he can consistently knock down that free throw jumper, it's a great shot. If not and the defense still plays soft, his best option is to take a dribble in to attack the zone and force the bottom defenders to come at him. Now at that point or if the defense collapses to him immediately, that opens lanes behind those bottom defenders for other players in the offense to get behind the defense and slash to the basket. That's why it's optimal for the big man to be the one in the middle, because generally he'll be able to make passes over the top of defenses. If the defense collapses from the guards, it opens jumpers out on the perimeter.

This is the most basic way to attack a zone defense. Kids in grade school know this.

It is not the only way to attack the defense, but it is the most basic and generally the initial way a team will attack the defense unless they are a great jumpshooting team and/or are content to just jack jumpers.

The fact that Bynum does not know this is an indictment on him, and that's even if the Lakers have never ever practiced how to play against the zone. He should know this. He said he didn't know where he was supposed to be at. That's unforgivable for a professional basketball player not to know that.

Enough with your condescending talk. You talk down to people like you know everything about basketball and everyone else knows nothing. In the end, you come off extremely pretentious.

Amazing.

Are you aware pretty much every 14 years old kid who plays basketball knows that? Yes? Are you aware that Bynum has played against zones multiples times in his life, including in the NBA career?

It's the execution, stupid. He was talking about the execution, stop with the lame fiction that he actually doesn't know the theoretical basics of a zone offense. Do you really think it's as easy as you described it? Just like Pau. Do you think Pau doesn't know how to attack a zone either?

And you're saying you're teaching me the basics of attacking a zone and I'm the pretentious and condescending one?

The guy saying "oh, I've been telling you that the way to attack a zone is to attack the middle and you still don't know that" is accusing others of condescension? :lmao

[JamStone]

Seriously, are you re-enacting the movie Dumb and Dumber?

YOU even quoted Bynum.

"I had no idea where I was supposed to be at."

Where. WHERE. WHERE.

Where did he say it was about execution? Where did he say it was an issue of "when" as you suggested earlier.

He didn't know WHERE he was supposed to be. Where.

WTH??

[JamStone]

Pau didn't say he didn't know where he was supposed to go. He didn't say they didn't practice against the zone. He said they're not used to playing against it. Two different things.


So we're not accustomed to playing against zone. And obviously it was noticeable tonight for the most part.


http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=63433

It seems Pau Gasol is another idiot who doesn't pay attention in practices.

Once again, individual players can perfectly know how to attack a zone in theory. Everybody does, that's pretty much a given at this level. But that's not enough.

[JamStone]

Yeah, Bynum just needs to know he should "attack the middle" and he'll be fine next time they face a zone.

Again, "attack the middle" isn't incorrect. Neither is the crisp passing. They're just banalities. Everybody wants to penetrate the zone. Do you think I or anyone else doesn't know that the goal is to get the ball inside the zone and force it to collapse? Heck, I've said it multiple times-.

LOL at retardness of thinking he's teaching people that when you face a zone you should "attack the middle". Really Sherlock? What a genius you are.

Apparently at first you didn't think putting the big man in the middle was correct until I explained to you what that meant.




What's "putting a big man in the middle"? What's exactly "the middle"? And the most important thing attacking a zone is not where to move but when and how to move.

So, it's not "going to the middle". It depends on his initial positioning, the positioning of the teammates, opponents and where the ball is. For example, the movement Bynum has to do attacking a zone from a triple post offense is different than the one he'd do playing for some other zone offense (in fact, knowing the triangle should be everything he needed to attack a zone, at least theoretically). And that's what he means by "I had no idea where I was supposed to be at".

I'm pretty sure Bynum understands the point is to fill the open space in the middle to force the zone to collapse, but that alone won't help him much in a particular situation.




Amazing.

Are you aware pretty much every 14 years old kid who plays basketball knows that? Yes? Are you aware that Bynum has played against zones multiples times in his life, including in the NBA career?

That was my point. But you initially didn't know that, as I quoted your earlier post above.




It's the execution, stupid. He was talking about the execution, stop with the lame fiction that he actually doesn't know the theoretical basics of a zone offense. Do you really think it's as easy as you described it? Just like Pau. Do you think Pau doesn't know how to attack a zone either?

And you're saying you're teaching me the basics of attacking a zone and I'm the pretentious and condescending one?

You asked "what middle." You asked when the big man gets in the middle of the zone. I explained it to you. The least you could do is say thank you.


You didn't understand when he was to position himself in the middle of the zone in the following quote:


And Bynum didn't know where he was supposed to be at any given moment during the possession. But maybe according to you he should just position himself in the high post and.... and what? Wait? Is that what you mean by attacking the middle? Can't you see how primitive that is?

That's why I explained how to attack the zone in more detail. You didn't know what I meant when I said "attack the middle." So I explained. Now you get mad that I explained it to you. Just say thank you.

[cobbler]

Seriously, are you re-enacting the movie Dumb and Dumber?

YOU even quoted Bynum.

"I had no idea where I was supposed to be at."

Where. WHERE. WHERE.

Where did he say it was about execution? Where did he say it was an issue of "when" as you suggested earlier.

He didn't know WHERE he was supposed to be. Where.

WTH??

Don't even bother anymore. Mogrov is a pompus ass. You are correct. Bynum wasn't saying he knows where to go and just wasn't executing. Of course you have to execute once you get there. The ball isnt going to put itself in the basket. He said, and quite shockingly IMO, that he didn't know where to go. Judging by the fact that he didn't adjust one little bit once they implemented the zone, I would conclude that he indeed does not know.

:lol @ Mogrov's workshop comment. Classic!

[Amuseddaysleeper]

This is almost as entertaining as the Boston/Orlando game

[Giuseppe]

No Mo tonite. His light ain't lit.

tee, hee.

[mogrovejo]

No Mo tonite. His light ain't lit.

tee, hee.

Shut up, Culby. I'm not of your kind.


Apparently at first you didn't think putting the big man in the middle was correct until I explained to you what that meant.

That was my point. But you initially didn't know that, as I quoted your earlier post above.

You asked "what middle." You asked when the big man gets in the middle of the zone. I explained it to you. The least you could do is say thank you.

You didn't understand when he was to position himself in the middle of the zone in the following quote:


What's why I explained how to attack the zone in more detail. You didn't know what I meant when I said "attack the middle." So I explained. Now you get mad that I explained it to you. Just say thank you.

I didn't know how to attack zone and neither did Bynum. Jamstone knows. :rollin

You've jumped the shark idiot. Lol at the retardness of interpreting everytghing literally.

A 6 years NBA veteran, a guy who has played against zones dozens and dozens of times, not knowing the basics of zone offense. :lmao

Once again: stop with the banalities. Nobody cares. Saying "you attack the zone by going to the middle" is a fucking banality, an empty generality, that every 14 years old has heard multiple times.

Again: it was about the execution. That's what he meant. That's what I meant.

But maybe you're right and everything Phil Jackson has to do is to say "hey Bynum, here's what you have to do: attack the middle. Flash to the high post." and, dzang, it's done and next time Bynum will know where he needs to be!!

[cobbler]

Again: it was about the execution. That's what he meant. That's what I meant.


It's about execution. BRILLIANT!!! Any sub 14 year old would know that.

That is not what he meant. So I guess we can erase clairvoyant off your resume as the all knowing basketball expert. :lol

[mogrovejo]

It's about execution. BRILLIANT!!! Any sub 14 year old would know that.

That is not what he meant. So I guess we can erase clairvoyant off your resume as the all knowing basketball expert. :lol

Yes, it's obvious what he meant is that he didn't know he needed to go the high post.

Even though the 5 in the Lakers zone offense doesn't go to the high post.:bang

[cobbler]

Yes, it's obvious what he meant is that he didn't know he needed to go the high post.

Even though the 5 in the Lakers zone offense doesn't go to the high post.:bang

If you are talking a traditional triangle offense then you are correct he woud be between the low block and high post. The Lakers actually run the triangle only about half the time. And even when they do they do not always have Drew or Pau initiating at the traditional 5 spot. Often it is Odom or Artest.

But what do I know next to your vast experience and knowledge. I never attended a workshop! :lol

[mogrovejo]

If you are talking a traditional triangle offense then you are correct he woud be between the low block and high post. The Lakers actually run the triangle only about half the time. And even when they do they do not always have Drew or Pau starting at the traditional 5 spot. Often it is Odom or Artest.

But what do I know next to your vast experience and knowledge. I never attended a workshop! :lol

I'm talking about the Lakers zone offense. Can't you read? I wrote "Lakers zone offense". What's so difficult to understand about this? How the heck do you start a reply with "if you're talking about.."? If? Wasn't it clear enough for you what I was talking about?

And yeah, you don't know much. And I doubt you have the ability to learn in you.

[Def Rowe]

lol... I have no idea what Mogro is like in real life, but on the internet this guy a total dick.

[cobbler]

I'm talking about the Lakers zone offense. Can't you read? I wrote "Lakers zone offense". What's so difficult to understand about this? How the heck do you start a reply with "if you're talking about.."? If? Wasn't it clear enough for you what I was talking about?

And yeah, you don't know much. And I doubt you have the ability to learn in you.

I started the reply like I did because a triangle offensive team can attack the zone with the triangle and/or traditional offensive schemes. So when you are saying the Lakers zone offense it has many possibilities as they use both. Is that so difficult to understand? I think not.

And furthermore.... I would put my actual basketball resume up against your armchair "workshop" knowledge anytime. :lol

[UV Ray]

Shut up, Culby. I'm not of your kind.

Again: it was about the execution. That's what he meant. That's what I meant.



Not saying what you meant is not a legitimate excuse for not saying what you meant.

[mogrovejo]

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6080/laznoffdiag1.png

Here's, Lakers attacking a 2-3 zone.

Do you see the 5 "attacking the middle"? You don't?

Yeah, I thought so.

[cobbler]

lol... I have no idea what Mogro is like in real life, but on the internet this guy a total dick.

Blasphmy!!!! Mogro is all knowing and never ever wrong. :wow

[mogrovejo]

http://jazba.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/girl-basketball.jpg

[cobbler]

Here's, Lakers attacking a 2-3 zone.

Do you see the 5 "attacking the middle"? You don't?

Yeah, I thought so.

That is one possible play for one possible zone. Nice try. Did you pull that out of your workshop notebook? :lmao

And look where they 5 is in that play.... right where i said he would be in a traditional triangle. Not how the Lakers play... sorry

[cobbler]

http://jazba.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/girl-basketball.jpg

Which one is you?

[HarlemHeat37]

LOL @ Gobbler questioning somebody's personality..this is the same guy that has said that joking about rape is acceptable..

[LnGrrrR]

Bynum clarifying: "When I said I did not know where to go, I really meant I wasn't familiar with the nuances of execution against this particular zone.

Also, when I told Nash during the game that he could "eat a dick, like your crackhead mom does for coke money", I really meant that he's a fierce competitor, and he's an example of makes the NBA so fun to watch."

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

LOL @ Gobbler questioning somebody's personality..this is the same guy that has said that joking about rape is acceptable..


:lol lighten up, I know a girl who was sexually assaulted and she even makes jokes about it. It's not like Cobbler is the first person to call mogro out for his royally obnoxious superiority complex and how he sounds like a 16 year old using fancy words he learned while studying for the SATs.

[mogrovejo]

Anyway, trolling aside, it's important to note that it's not enough to coach zones by just giving theoretical lectures to the players. Nobody can successfully install a good zone offense without actually coaching it in practices. I understand why Phil Jackson, like many other NBA coaches, don't want to lose much time with it, but a dependable zone offense is something that takes away work and time.

[cobbler]

LOL @ Gobbler questioning somebody's personality..this is the same guy that has said that joking about rape is acceptable..

Never said it. I said the squinting eyes thing was an acceptable joke. Funny comming from someone who make light of child abuse no?

And besides, I can laugh at racial, handicap, sexual, religious, and all off color jokes. If you do not have the ability to know the difference with making light of something and reality... then so be it. I can.

How's your quitter boy VC doing?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Never said it. I said the squinting eyes thing was an acceptable joke. Funny comming from someone who make light of child abuse no?

And besides, I can laugh at racial, handicap, sexual, religious, and all off color jokes. If you do not have the ability to know the difference with making light of something and reality... then so be it. I can.

How's your quitter boy VC doing?


Maybe HarlemHeat should attend a workshop about making light of things :lmao

[JamStone]

mogrovejo early on in the discussion not knowing what is meant to have the big man attack the zone in the middle. Asking for explanation. And then consequently dismissing attacking the zone in the middle.


What's "putting a big man in the middle"? What's exactly "the middle"? And the most important thing attacking a zone is not where to move but when and how to move.

So, it's not "going to the middle".


Subsequently, mogrovejo after contemplation acknowledging that attacking the middle "isn't incorrect" but just a "banality" or "generality" in an attempt to make it appear he knew what "attacking the middle of the zone" meant. And then a little pot shot insult to ensure he feels like he still has the upper hand in the debate power dynamic. He doesn't appreciate "pathetic retardness."

But then at the end questioning what "attacking the middle" means.



Again, "attack the middle" isn't incorrect. Neither is the crisp passing. They're just banalities. Everybody wants to penetrate the zone. Do you think I or anyone else doesn't know that the goal is to get the ball inside the zone and force it to collapse? Heck, I've said it multiple times-.

LOL at retardness of thinking he's teaching people that when you face a zone you should "attack the middle". Really Sherlock? What a genius you are.

-------

And Bynum didn't know where he was supposed to be at any given moment during the possession. But maybe according to you he should just position himself in the high post and.... and what? Wait? Is that what you mean by attacking the middle? Can't you see how primitive that is?


Finally coming to grips after getting a more detailed explanation what "attacking the middle of the zone" consists of, something he asked to be explained further, mogrovejo simply acting an ass and saying "every 14 year old kid who plays basketball knows that," despite the fact he initially didn't know what I meant when I said attack the middle of the zone.

And then mogrovejo reading Andrew Bynum's mind and translating his quote into some blah blah blah about execution...


Amazing.

Are you aware pretty much every 14 years old kid who plays basketball knows that? Yes? Are you aware that Bynum has played against zones multiples times in his life, including in the NBA career?

It's the execution, stupid. He was talking about the execution, stop with the lame fiction that he actually doesn't know the theoretical basics of a zone offense. Do you really think it's as easy as you described it? Just like Pau. Do you think Pau doesn't know how to attack a zone either?

And you're saying you're teaching me the basics of attacking a zone and I'm the pretentious and condescending one?

[LnGrrrR]

Maybe HarlemHeat should attend a workshop about making light of things :lmao

While HarlemHeat may have said that Cobbler was making light of rape, what he really meant to say was that Cobbler did not execute the joke well.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

mogrovejo early on in the discussion not knowing what is meant to have the big man attack the zone in the middle. Asking for explanation. And then consequently dismissing attacking the zone in the middle.




Subsequently, mogrovejo after contemplation acknowledging that attacking the middle "isn't incorrect" but just a "banality" or "generality" in an attempt to make it appear he knew what "attacking the middle of the zone" meant. And then a little pot shot insult to ensure he feels like he still has the upper hand in the debate power dynamic. He doesn't appreciate pathetic retardness.

But then at the end questioning what "attacking the middle" means.




Finally coming to grips after getting a more detailed explanation what attacking the middle of the zone means, something he asked to be explained further, mogrovejo simply acting an ass and saying "every 14 year old kid who plays basketball knows that," despite the fact he initially didn't know that.

And then mogrovejo reading Andrew Bynum's mind and translation his quote into some blah blah blah about execution...


But he attended a workshop :lmao

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

While HarlemHeat may have said that Cobbler was making light of rape, what he really meant to say was that Cobbler did not execute the joke well.


Well in that case, maybe Cobbler should attend a workshop about executing jokes.

[mogrovejo]

mogrovejo early on in the discussion not knowing what is meant to have the big man attack the zone in the middle. Asking for explanation. And then consequently dismissing attacking the zone in the middle.




Subsequently, mogrovejo after contemplation acknowledging that attacking the middle "isn't incorrect" but just a "banality" or "generality" in an attempt to make it appear he knew what "attacking the middle of the zone" meant. And then a little pot shot insult to ensure he feels like he still has the upper hand in the debate power dynamic. He doesn't appreciate "pathetic retardness."

But then at the end questioning what "attacking the middle" means.




Finally coming to grips after getting a more detailed explanation what attacking the middle of the zone means, something he asked to be explained further, mogrovejo simply acting an ass and saying "every 14 year old kid who plays basketball knows that," despite the fact he initially didn't know that.

And then mogrovejo reading Andrew Bynum's mind and translation his quote into some blah blah blah about execution...

Here's my first paragraph in this post:


If it was that easy to get inside a zone, nobody would use them. Bigs can get position in the middle of it, but that de per se isn't enough to force a zone to collapse. I'm pretty sure Bynum knows where to go in a zone offense.


I mean, are you trying to troll or you really can't get what was the point of my questions? Honest question here, now I'm curious.

[mogrovejo]

:lol lighten up, I know a girl who was sexually assaulted and she even makes jokes about it. It's not like Cobbler is the first person to call mogro out for his royally obnoxious superiority complex and how he sounds like a 16 year old using fancy words he learned while studying for the SATs.

This one is perennially butthurt. No cure for him till the end of his days.

[JamStone]

Bynum didn't know where to go against the zone. That's the point.

That's what is ridiculous. It was not about execution. Not about "when" to go where. He didn't know WHERE he was supposed to be.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

This one is perennially butthurt. No cure for him till the end of his days.


Yeah I'm butt hurt. I should attend a workshop about not being butthurt :lmao

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

This one is perennially butthurt. No cure for him till the end of his days.


Btw, good use of the word "perennially", I had to study that one when I took the SATs!

[mogrovejo]

Bynum didn't know where to go against the zone. That's the point.

That's what is ridiculous. It was not about execution. Not about "when" to go where. He didn't know WHERE he was supposed to be.

Where he was supposed to be when? Do you think he should stay in the same spot the entire possession?

You don't know where he was supposed to be either, you've said he should flash into the high post.

[JamStone]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/Suns-Lakers-Game-3-defense-zone-playoffs-052310

How the Lakers should break Phoenix' zone by Charley Rosen, Phil Jackson's butt buddy:


The Lakers’ failure to solve the zone got them frustrated and confused and negatively affected every aspect of their game — particularly their defense. Credit Alvin Gentry’s willingness (born of desperation) to gamble on the zone for limiting the defending champs to a mere 109 points after they’d averaged a colossal 126 during the first two games.

Here’s how to beat a 2-3 zone:

* The first plan of attack is to furiously push the ball over the timeline with the aim of creating good looks before the zone has a chance to get set. This is something that the Lakers really didn’t look to accomplish. Instead, they were overly cautious in running situations and were too eager to pull the ball out and organize their offense.

* Get the ball into a good-passing big man (like Pau Gasol) at, or near, the middle of the stripe. The idea is to put pressure on a specific interior defender to guard either the ball or the baseline. If the zoner under attack moves up and pressures the ball, a wingman can then take advantage of the vacated space by cutting behind the zone. Whatever success the Lakers did have against the 2-3 alignment usually resulted from this strategy.

* Delivering the ball to Kobe at an elbow-extended likewise compels the baseline zoners to commit themselves one way or the other.


* The gaps between the two top-most defenders, or between one top defender and the strong-side wing defender, are usually large enough for someone like Kobe to penetrate if the ball is quickly reversed to him.

* Moreover, screens can be set on the guards that, if properly executed, can create both shooting and penetrating lanes. The penetrations will likely be limited, but can still facilitate drive-and-kick opportunities.

* Overloading one side of the court and then quickly reversing the ball can also generate open looks, simply because the ball can be passed from point A to Point B faster than a defender can travel the same distance.

* The easy way to overcome zones is to routinely knock down outside jumpers. Even so, the ball must be rapidly moved from east-to-west as well as from north-to-south to open the best possible shots.

After trying to get early offense before the zone can set, Rosen even specifically states that this is the main way to break the zone and said it was the strategy used in the third quarter to break the zone in game 3. Rosen sucks of the Phil Jackson tit. He intimately knows what Phil Jackson does on offense and his basketball strategies. He says that's how the Lakers beat the zone.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

:lmao

Give that fucker a Spur.:lmao


:lmao he's obviously paying attention at his SAT workshop!

[JamStone]

Where he was supposed to be when? Do you think he should stay in the same spot the entire possession?

You don't know where he was supposed to be either, you've said he should flash into the high post.

Basic half court set. One big stationed on the low block, the other big stationed around the high post. Ball swings on the perimeter. Once it gets to the extended elbow on whichever side, the big on the opposite low block flashes to the middle. If the pass doesn't go in, the bigs switch positions, ball gets swung to the other side, the other big flashes to the high post. It's basic high-low post action.

Bynum didn't flash to the high post. Remember, he didn't know where he was supposed to be.

This is actually more utilized by the Lakers when Pau and Odom are in the front court and Pau plays center. You often see that high-low post action where Pau gets the ball in the high post and Odom ends up cutting underneath for an easy basket.

Bynum didn't know "where" to be.

[mogrovejo]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/Suns-Lakers-Game-3-defense-zone-playoffs-052310

How the Lakers should break Phoenix' zone by Charley Rosen, Phil Jackson's butt buddy:

After trying to get early offense before the zone can set, Rosen even specifically states that this is the main way to break the zone and said it was the strategy used in the third quarter to break the zone in game 3. Rosen sucks of the Phil Jackson tit. He intimately knows what Phil Jackson does on offense and his basketball strategies. He says that's how the Lakers beat the zone.

Rosen is basketball illiterate. But are you now saying that both Gasol and Bynum should be in the same spot? Wow, you're truly revolutionary with your thoughts about zone offense. Maybe you should write a book, I've never seen such a thing being argued - move two players to teh same spot of the floor. That's a radically different concept of spacing!

[JamStone]

PF and C are interchangeable positions in this scenario. They exchange high-low post positions depending which side the ball is rotated to.

And as I mentioned in my subsequent post, Pau often is the big flashing to the post when Lamar Odom is in the game playing the 4-spot.

Rosen is a dipshit, but one thing he does actually know is how Phil Jackson coaches.

[mogrovejo]

Basic half court set. One big stationed on the low block, the other big stationed around the high post. Ball swings on the perimeter. Once it gets to the extended elbow on whichever side, the big on the opposite low block flashes to the middle. If the pass doesn't go in, the bigs switch positions, ball gets swung to the other side, the other big flashes to the high post. It's basic high-low post action.

Bynum didn't flash to the high post. Remember, he didn't know where he was supposed to be.

This is actually more utilized by the Lakers when Pau and Odom are in the front court and Pau plays center. You often see that high-low post action where Pau gets the ball in the high post and Odom ends up cutting underneath for an easy basket.


Yeah, it's a typical triangle set. :bang


Bynum didn't know "where" to be.

Neither did the other guys, they all sucked attacking the zone and Bynum was barely on court.

[JamStone]

Yeah, it's a typical triangle set. :bang

That's a typical offense against zone. Any team, high school, college, professional, even not running a triangle offense, uses that high-low set against a zone. It has triangle principles. It's not a typical Phil Jackson triangle.

Which again begs the question why Andrew Bynum didn't know where to be.

That's why it's ridiculous that Bynum didn't know where he was supposed to be.




Neither did the other guys, they all sucked attacking the zone and Bynum was barely on court.


No one else said they didn't know where to go. Bynum was the only one. You tried to forced that Pau Gasol quote to fit that argument but it didn't. He merely said they weren't used to playing against the zone. He didn't say he didn't know where to be.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

phlegmatic


dogmatic

[mogrovejo]

Bynum didn't know where to go against the zone. That's the point.

That's what is ridiculous. It was not about execution. Not about "when" to go where. He didn't know WHERE he was supposed to be.

You're wrong. Re-watch the game. Bynum actually did what he wanted him to do. They just lacked execution as a team in most sets, they lacked purpose and certainty on where to go at, when to move, when to pass.

[mogrovejo]

hKiO3tn5ofg

See Bynum doing the typical move to the elbow once the ball swing is done.

If it was as simple as retards believe, everything would be okay - he knew where he had to be.

But this was terrible zone offense.

[JamStone]

Lol. I give up.

It's pointless now.

Believe what you want to believe. I'll believe in actual reality.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Lol. I give up.

It's pointless now.

Believe what you want to believe. I'll believe in actual reality.


I believe in workshops!

[mogrovejo]

Lol. I give up.

It's pointless now.

Believe what you want to believe. I'll believe in actual reality.

Tough to argue with film, hein? :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[JamStone]

Tough to argue with film, hein? :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

Check the timestamp. I posted one minute after your video. I didn't watch the video before posting that.

Once again, believe what you want to believe.

[mogrovejo]

Yeps, tough to argue with film.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

habitué


antidisestablishmentarianism

[mogrovejo]

I wonder what went wrong!. Bynum actually flashed up. So, he knew where to go. Well, even if he didnt', at least he went!

And yet the entire play was crappy. Nothing happened. The zone stayed in shape.

I need to read more about Jamstone's zone offense. I feel I'm missing something here. That shit was supposed to work.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I don't even have to look that up.


Crap! I did, I better attend a spelling workshop.

[JamStone]

Yeps, tough to argue with film.


I wonder what went wrong!. Bynum actually flashed up. So, he knew where to go. Well, even if he didnt', at least he went!

And yet the entire play was crappy. Nothing happened. The zone stayed in shape.

I need to read more about Jamstone's zone offense. I feel I'm missing something here. That shit was supposed to work.

Feel free to post every possession Andrew Bynum was in the game when the Suns were playing zone.

In the clip you posted, he's moving around the paint. Looks like he does actually have an idea what to do as he goes to the middle when the ball gets swung on that side. I'd love to know if he did that every time against the zone instead of one possession you found. Any clips you found where he looked lost against the zone? You know, he did say he didn't know where he was supposed to be.

[JamStone]

I wonder what went wrong!. Bynum actually flashed up. So, he knew where to go. Well, even if he didnt', at least he went!

And yet the entire play was crappy. Nothing happened. The zone stayed in shape.

I need to read more about Jamstone's zone offense. I feel I'm missing something here. That shit was supposed to work.

What went wrong is they never passed it inside and they ended up settling for a jumper.

Swinging the ball all out on the perimeter without trying to get the ball in the middle of the zone is what they did. That's why it didn't work. The clip shows that if you don't get the ball in the middle to attack the zone and just settle for a jumper, the zone can have some success unless the team who's settling for jumpers is a great shooting team.

Pretty simple.

[JamStone]

Andrew Bynum not knowing where the fuck to go against the zone defense.

Lol almost getting in Kobe's way and then doing a carnival loop from the free throw line up around the three point line then back down towards the basket.

WTF was that?

"I didn't know where I was supposed to be."

oWLgHk2Tgqs

[JamStone]

Lakers with Gasol at the 5 having him flash to the middle of the zone, face the basket and finding a teammate as the defense reacts to him with the ball in the middle of the zone.

AWfBXFPQ-Pg

[JamStone]

Yeps, tough to argue with film.

[LnGrrrR]

and BOOM goes the dynamite

[JamStone]

Couple observations from those clips.

1. The video you posted where Bynum flashed to the middle was in the second quarter. The video I posted where Bynum looked lost was in the third quarter. It leads me to believe him flashing to the middle was more of a fluke than anything. If he knew where to go in the second quarter, why didn't he know where to go in the third?

2. Ron Artest looked lost against the zone as well. He was crowding areas and not spacing well.

3. The Lakers weren't using a high-low post set against the zone. They used one post and four perimeter guys. I would guess that's to help with spacing but I don't know for sure. But that's not a "typical" Phil Jackson triangle set.

4. In the last clip I posted, you could see that when the defense reacted to Pau, the Lakers sent Odom baseline, forcing the one low defender having to choose between him and Artest. He chose Odom, leaving Artest open for the pass to attack the basket. Again, Artest looked lost. He should be out to the three point line where he could get a wide open shot or pump fake and attack the basket where Odom would still be behind the defense.

[cobbler]

While HarlemHeat may have said that Cobbler was making light of rape, what he really meant to say was that Cobbler did not execute the joke well.

There was no joke about rape. No joke from me about anything at all. Just Harlem getting all butthurt that people find his obsession about Kobe comical. :toast

[cobbler]

Yeps, tough to argue with film.

Even tougher to argue with a moron.

So you argue and even post a play diagram from your workshop declaring that the 5 doesn't go to the freethrow line or elbow. And now you show seconds of one play and say he did know where to go. You always waiver this much?

[LnGrrrR]

There was no joke about rape. No joke from me about anything at all. Just Harlem getting all butthurt that people find his obsession about Kobe comical. :toast

My bad Cobbler, I forgot the /snark comment at the end of my post. :toast

[cobbler]

I wonder what went wrong!. Bynum actually flashed up. So, he knew where to go. Well, even if he didnt', at least he went!

And yet the entire play was crappy. Nothing happened. The zone stayed in shape.

I need to read more about Jamstone's zone offense. I feel I'm missing something here. That shit was supposed to work.

See, this is why you look so damn foolish. You sit here and say oh well he went to the spot but the play didn't work. Funny thing about that guy you post in the middle. YOU HAVE TO PASS HIM THE FUCKING BALL.

The Lakers ignored him and tossed it around the perimiter.

Apparently passing the ball wasn't covered in your workshop.

[mogrovejo]

Couple observations from those clips.

1. The video you posted where Bynum flashed to the middle was in the second quarter. The video I posted where Bynum looked lost was in the third quarter. It leads me to believe him flashing to the middle was more of a fluke than anything. If he knew where to go in the second quarter, why didn't he know where to go in the third?

Are you kidding me?

You're now saying that he knew where to go sometimes but not in others?




2. Ron Artest looked lost against the zone as well. He was crowding areas and not spacing well.


Great, now it's a 10 years veteran or so who doesn't know where to go in a zone either.

Am I the only one who finds weird how so many NBA veterans don't know where to be in a zone when, according to Jamstone, it's so simple?

Maybe NBA teams should hire Jamstone as a consultant. Then he can write a 50 words post explaining how you attack a zone, the players read it and voilá, everybody knows where to go in a zone.

What a retard. :bang


3. The Lakers weren't using a high-low post set against the zone. They used one post and four perimeter guys. I would guess that's to help with spacing but I don't know for sure. But that's not a "typical" Phil Jackson triangle set.

Hmm, yeah, they attack the zone with the 4 drifting to the perimeter. I explained it to you somewhere in this thread.


4. In the last clip I posted, you could see that when the defense reacted to Pau, the Lakers sent Odom baseline, forcing the one low defender having to choose between him and Artest. He chose Odom, leaving Artest open for the pass to attack the basket. Again, Artest looked lost. He should be out to the three point line where he could get a wide open shot or pump fake and attack the basket where Odom would still be behind the defense.

Yeah, nobody ever thought about telling Artest where to go in a zone. :bang

[mogrovejo]

See, this is why you look so damn foolish. You sit here and say oh well he went to the spot but the play didn't work. Funny thing about that guy you post in the middle. YOU HAVE TO PASS HIM THE FUCKING BALL.

The Lakers ignored him and tossed it around the perimiter.

Apparently passing the ball wasn't covered in your workshop.

So, the problem was execution? So, simply saying "attack the middle" doesn't get the job done?

[cobbler]

Lakers with Gasol at the 5 having him flash to the middle of the zone, face the basket and finding a teammate as the defense reacts to him with the ball in the middle of the zone.

AWfBXFPQ-Pg

Thank you! I siad it before this thread was even started. Put Gasol at the elbow and the zone is toast. Drew doesn't have the IQ to pull it off.

The funny thing about this whole thread is that Moron-gro is actually trying to argue that Bynum didn't believe his own comments. The man said he didn't know where to go. Seems like a pretty simple statement to comprehend. No? I suppose he just makes comments like that cause looking foolish in the media is so cool to do. :lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Apparently passing the ball wasn't covered in your workshop.


:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[mogrovejo]

What went wrong is they never passed it inside and they ended up settling for a jumper.

Swinging the ball all out on the perimeter without trying to get the ball in the middle of the zone is what they did. That's why it didn't work. The clip shows that if you don't get the ball in the middle to attack the zone and just settle for a jumper, the zone can have some success unless the team who's settling for jumpers is a great shooting team.

Pretty simple.

It's not that simple.

You seem to believe it's only a matter of willingness, of trying. That they just weren't smart enough to make the pass.

It doesn't work that way.

Have you ever played structured basketball with zones?

[BadOdor]

lol workshop.

[mogrovejo]

See, this is why you look so damn foolish. You sit here and say oh well he went to the spot but the play didn't work. Funny thing about that guy you post in the middle. YOU HAVE TO PASS HIM THE FUCKING BALL.

Genius II.

Really? The point is passing the ball? Let me guess, the ultimate goal is to put the ball in the basket.

Who's more admirable with coming up with those gems of basketball knowledge, you or Jamstone?

[cobbler]

So, the problem was execution? So, simply saying "attack the middle" doesn't get the job done?

The problem with any play that goes wrong is execution. The first step of any execution is to be in the correct spot. He said he didnt know where to go, and from my observations, I have to agree. That you feel he does know where to go is based on your mystical powers to decipher what he meant and not what he said. CLASSIC!!!!

I'm curious, did you actually get to touch a ball in your zone workshop or was it an internet workshop for basketball retards?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So from this thread, we can all agree the key is execution. In related news:

boys have a penis
girls have a vagina
the sky is blue
ducks is retarded

[mogrovejo]

Andrew Bynum not knowing where the fuck to go against the zone defense.

Lol almost getting in Kobe's way and then doing a carnival loop from the free throw line up around the three point line then back down towards the basket.

WTF was that?

"I didn't know where I was supposed to be."

Are you serious?

Where should he have been then?

[mogrovejo]

The problem with any play that goes wrong is execution. The first step of any execution is to be in the correct spot. He said he didnt know where to go, and from my observations, I have to agree. That you feel he does know where to go is based on your mystical powers to decipher what he meant and not what he said. CLASSIC!!!!

Okay.

So tell me where he should go.

[JamStone]

Are you kidding me?

You're now saying that he knew where to go sometimes but not in others?

No. I'm saying if he didn't know where the fuck to go in the third quarter against the zone, how did he know where to go in the second quarter? I deduce that he actually didn't know where he was going in the second and only appeared to know, otherwise he would not have looked like such an assfuck against the zone later in the game.




Great, now it's a 10 years veteran or so who doesn't know where to go in a zone either.

Am I the only one who finds weird how so many NBA veterans don't know where to be in a zone when, according to Jamstone, it's so simple?

Maybe NBA teams should hire Jamstone as a consultant. Then he can write a 50 words post explaining how you attack a zone, the players read it and voilá, everybody knows where to go in a zone.

What a retard. :bang

Kobe, Gasol, Fisher, and Odom all looked like they knew what to do against the zone. Bynum looked like a buttfuck. Artest looked lost too. I don't know why that is, but Artest apparently doesn't know what to do against a zone defense.

How is one other NBA veteran equivalent to "so many?"

I don't know everything about basketball. Hell, I don't know half the shit college players and coaches know, much less NBA players and coaches. But I don't go around these boards always telling people they're stupid and yelling and screaming about obscure basketball statistics you have to pay to see or basketball workshops on the triangle offense. That's not me, bud.

I don't know any more about basketball than most people on here. I do know a little bit, but I'm not trying to talk down to people to make myself seem like I'm an expert. But I do know basic concepts about basketball. I do know how teams are supposed to attack a zone. That's something I've known a long time.

I don't claim to be a basketball or NBA expert. I don't know that much. The problem is you don't realize you don't either.




Hmm, yeah, they attack the zone with the 4 drifting to the perimeter. I explained it to you somewhere in this thread.

Ok. Thanks.




Yeah, nobody ever thought about telling Artest where to go in a zone. :bang

Artest has no excuse just like Bynum has no excuse not to know where they should be when attacking the zone. Artest cut in front of two players almost overloading one side with all five Lakers. Again, Kobe, Fisher, Pau, and Odom looked fin against the zone. Artest is apparently an idiot. But that's not all that surprising.


Why don't you address Bynum looking lost in that one video, and the other video where Pau as the center flashed to the middle and forced the zone to collapse and got an open teammate a good look at a drive at the basket?

Why would you post one video where your point wasn't even made and then get all pompous like you were right and then not even respond to the other two videos I posted in rebuttal?

[LnGrrrR]

Why DIDN'T they pass him the ball in the post more often? Was the defense putting any pressure on the passing lanes? I didn't see anything too difficult.

Also, I don't see why it's so unlikely that a player may not know what to do in a specific instance. As Mogro said himself, there are various zones, and various ways to combat those zones. Why is it so easy to believe that may not know the "when" but he obviously knows the "where"?

[cobbler]

Genius II.

Really? The point is passing the ball? Let me guess, the ultimate goal is to put the ball in the basket.

Who's more admirable with coming up with those gems of basketball knowledge, you or Jamstone?

And to think we know so much more than you... and I never got the opportunity to take a basketball for dummies workshop.


BTW... I would venture to guess that many of today NBA players aren't real familiar with zones. It's rarely used in the NBA and not too many players these days stay in college more than a year or two to learn the concepts. Yes they all have been exposed to it, but if you don't practice it, or attend workshops :lmao, you will not be ready and lose composure.

[cobbler]

Okay.

So tell me where he should go.

To a workshop. :toast

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

To a workshop. :toast


lol workshop

[cobbler]

Why DIDN'T they pass him the ball in the post more often? Was the defense putting any pressure on the passing lanes? I didn't see anything too difficult.

Also, I don't see why it's so unlikely that a player may not know what to do in a specific instance. As Mogro said himself, there are various zones, and various ways to combat those zones. Why is it so easy to believe that may not know the "when" but he obviously knows the "where"?

We do believe he didn't know. It's clear as day. Mongro is arguing he did. I would love to be able to sit here and say Drew knew exactly what to do they just didnt execute it well. But when I see him running around lost and he tells us in a post game interview he was confused, I belive the man. Can't possibly see any reason for him to state that if it wasn't true.

Mongro is just arguing to argue... and looking quite foolish doing so.

[JamStone]

It's not that simple.

You seem to believe it's only a matter of willingness, of trying. That they just weren't smart enough to make the pass.

It doesn't work that way.

Have you ever played structured basketball with zones?

You posted a video to show Bynum knew what he was doing and then in the process tried to make a point that what I said about attacking the middle of the zone was inaccurate. The problem with that argument is that the clip you posted shows they didn't attack the middle of the zone and merely swung the ball around and settled for a jumper, therein NOT attacking the middle of the zone.

In the subsequent clip I posted, the Lakers were able to get the ball to Pau when he flashed to the middle. In the clip you posted, they didn't even try. They were content to swing the ball around the perimeter and shoot a jumper. I didn't say they weren't smart enough to make the pass. Don't know where you inferred that from. But they didn't even make an attempt. That's lazy offense. And yes, at least part of it is a matter of trying.

I haven't played any organized basketball beyond high school. I've played in plenty of basketball leagues as an adult, but they aren't even as structured as high school basketball, and there are plenty of people in those leagues that never even played high school. I've played structured offense against the zone way back in high school and a little in some of the leagues I've played in as an adult but not really much because it's basically slightly more organized pick-up ball a lot of the time. I've coached some of those league teams but again, I don't claim to know all that much about basketball other than a lot of basic stuff most people know. I do know enough about zone defenses that I'm not bullshitting when I talk about them.



Are you serious?

Where should he have been then?

Lol, did you watch the video?

First, Bynum starts by going down to the low block. Ball gets swung to the left. Bynum gets cut off by Ron Artest (that's one of the reasons I said Artest looked stupid against the zone too) and then just stands still for a split second. Kobe gets the ball back at the top of the key. Where does Bynum go? He moves towards the elbow as if he's going to receive a pass out by the three point line. Under no circumstance is he supposed to go flash OUT to the three point line elbow to receive a pass. At that point, he doesn't know what the fuck he's supposed to do. Basically gets in Kobe's dribble so he circles around to the top of the key and actually runs right in front of Pau Gasol as Gasol is shooting a jumper.

The whole sequence screams Andrew Bynum is lost and doesn't know what the fuck he is doing. Suggesting otherwise is blatantly ignoring the clip.

In this thread, you said it's not that Bynum doesn't know where to go but rather it was about execution. That clip unequivocally refutes that notion.

[mogrovejo]

Why DIDN'T they pass him the ball in the post more often? Was the defense putting any pressure on the passing lanes? I didn't see anything too difficult.

Also, I don't see why it's so unlikely that a player may not know what to do in a specific instance. As Mogro said himself, there are various zones, and various ways to combat those zones. Why is it so easy to believe that may not know the "when" but he obviously knows the "where"?

There are plenty of "wheres" in this discussion.

Jamstone is pretending that it's set in stone that the big flashes to the middle and that's it. And that is that what Bynum didn't know - that you attack the zone by getting the ball into the middle of it (which forces the zone to collapse).

But there's a lot more to it. Bynum has been playing basketball for years. What Jamstone describes as the strategy to attack the zone he has heard multiple times. During the half-time the Lakers had a video session about attacking the zone - with film from the first half of the game.

Are we all really going to pretend that Bynum didn't know that the point is to "attack the middle"? I mean, he did the move Jamstone seems to believe it's the be all end all of a zone offense.

But if it was that easy to "attack the middle", zones would be useless.

There were lots of Lakers lost and uncertain of what to do versus that zone. Heck, in plenty of those videos Gasol does everything but "attacking the middle".

Without speed and synchronization, without knowing what to do and where to go in a precise moment, depending on where the ball, teammates and opponents are, you don't break a zone, even if you go through all the motions.

In that play, Odom was late going to the wing to catch the pass from the side reversal. If he had moved earlier, he'd have god either an open driving or passing lane and an open guy in the corner (Brown, I think). He didn't and that slowed down their passing. And if the outside passing isn't quick, you have no hope of passing the ball inside - unless by running massive risks of turning over the ball. So, Odom is apparently another guy who don't know where to go in a zone.

[cobbler]

Class...today's workshop is all about Zone offense and defense.

Mongro... pay attention. I don't want to have to keep you back and not let you move on to the dribbling and passing classes.

http://www2.edm.uhasselt.be/uixml2004/files/xmluidl2004-workshop-pic1.jpg

[mogrovejo]

You posted a video to show Bynum knew what he was doing and then in the process tried to make a point that what I said about attacking the middle of the zone was inaccurate. The problem with that argument is that the clip you posted shows they didn't attack the middle of the zone and merely swung the ball around and settled for a jumper, therein NOT attacking the middle of the zone.

I'm not sure you understand my point.

My point was simply to show that "flashing to the middle" only takes you that far. That Bynum actually went to where you think he should go. Meaning he probably knew where to go. And yet, he was lost.


In the subsequent clip I posted, the Lakers were able to get the ball to Pau when he flashed to the middle. In the clip you posted, they didn't even try. They were content to swing the ball around the perimeter and shoot a jumper. I didn't say they weren't smart enough to make the pass. Don't know where you inferred that from. But they didn't even make an attempt. That's lazy offense. And yes, at least part of it is a matter of trying.

Nope, it's a matter of moving the ball too slowly.


Lol, did you watch the video?

Nah, I actually introduced you to the videos but I didn't watch them myself. :bang


First, Bynum starts by going down to the low block. Ball gets swung to the left. Bynum gets cut off by Ron Artest (that's one of the reasons I said Artest looked stupid against the zone too) and then just stands still for a split second. Kobe gets the ball back at the top of the key. Where does Bynum go? He moves towards the elbow as if he's going to receive a pass out by the three point line. Under no circumstance is he supposed to go flash OUT to the three point line elbow to receive a pass. At that point, he doesn't know what the fuck he's supposed to do. Basically gets in Kobe's dribble so he circles around to the top of the key and actually runs right in front of Pau Gasol as Gasol is shooting a jumper.

Really? I find that odd, considering your previous statements about the spacing they were using.

So, can you answer: where was he supposed to go?

[cobbler]

My point was simply to show that "flashing to the middle" only takes you that far. That Bynum actually went to where you think he should go. Meaning he probably knew where to go. And yet, he was lost.


So Bynum says he didn't know where to go.... and you say he did.

I'm going with Drew on this one. :lol

[HarlemHeat37]

As an unbiased observer, mogrovejo is really killing this argument..

I'm ignoring Cobbler's parts, since he's a proven idiot..Mr. Unquantifiable arguments..

[Edward]

As an unbiased observer, mogrovejo is really killing this argument..

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[mogrovejo]

So Bynum says he didn't know where to go.... and you say he did.

I'm going with Drew on this one.

Okay, but Jamstone is going to be mad at you. He actually agrees that Bynum moved to the right spot in that video.

[cobbler]

As an unbiased observer, mogrovejo is really killing this argument..

I'm ignoring Cobbler's parts, since he's a proven idiot..Mr. Unquantifiable arguments..

Ohhh I'm soooooo hurt. And it's no doubt you would think Mongro is killing it. He's about as stupid as you... not quite... but very close.

VC... top 10 and HOF :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[JamStone]

There are plenty of "wheres" in this discussion.

Jamstone is pretending that it's set in stone that the big flashes to the middle and that's it. And that is that what Bynum didn't know - that you attack the zone by getting the ball into the middle of it (which forces the zone to collapse).

No I didn't. I said that it's the most basic way to attack the zone. In this thread, I've specifically said there are other ways to attack the zone.



But there's a lot more to it. Bynum has been playing basketball for years. What Jamstone describes as the strategy to attack the zone he has heard multiple times. During the half-time the Lakers had a video session about attacking the zone - with film from the first half of the game.

Awesome. You got to attend a triangle offense workshop AND sit in at the Lakers halftime session.




Are we all really going to pretend that Bynum didn't know that the point is to "attack the middle"? I mean, he did the move Jamstone seems to believe it's the be all end all of a zone offense.

Again, misrepresenting what I said. I've said several times that it's not the only way to attack the zone, but it is the most basic way to. It is not the end all and be all of zone offense. Never said that. If that's what you interpreted from what I've posted, then you misinterpreted.



But if it was that easy to "attack the middle", zones would be useless.

The zone is pretty useless. That's one of the reasons it's so rarely used. Patient teams can beat the zone rather effectively because disciplined offenses can create a lot of gaps and holes against zones. And most NBA teams have at least a couple great outside shooters that can be zone busters.



There were lots of Lakers lost and uncertain of what to do versus that zone. Heck, in plenty of those videos Gasol does everything but "attacking the middle".

There were two: Bynum and Artest. None of the other Lakers looked lost and uncertain.



Without speed and synchronization, without knowing what to do and where to go in a precise moment, depending on where the ball, teammates and opponents are, you don't break a zone, even if you go through all the motions.

In that play, Odom was late going to the wing to catch the pass from the side reversal. If he had moved earlier, he'd have god either an open driving or passing lane and an open guy in the corner (Brown, I think). So, Odom is apparently another guy who don't know where to go in a zone.

Odom was moving fine. He wasn't late. He wasn't lazy. The team didn't get the basketball in the middle and wasted time playing soft toss out at the three point line. Then they settled for a long jumper without anyone really moving on offense. It was a poor sequence. But Odom didn't look lost or uncertain.

[HarlemHeat37]

Ohhh I'm soooooo hurt. And it's no doubt you would think Mongro is killing it. He's about as stupid as you... not quite... but very close.

VC... top 10 and HOF :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

link?..

[mogrovejo]

Odom was moving fine. He wasn't late. He wasn't lazy. The team didn't get the basketball in the middle and wasted time playing soft toss out at the three point line. Then they settled for a long jumper without anyone really moving on offense. It was a poor sequence. But Odom didn't look lost or uncertain.

Why didn't he pass the ball to Bynum them? A few minutes ago you said it was lazy offense. Now you say he wasn't lazy.

C'mon, you're melting down here.

What is it?

[cobbler]

Okay, but Jamstone is going to be mad at you. He actually agrees that Bynum moved to the right spot in that video.

Cause he did. A blind squirrel finds an acorn evey once in awhile. Did he do the right thing consistently, I doubt it. I'm not going to waste time reviewing the video. I will take the man for his word.

It baffles me how a man can admit to not knowing something and you can argue that he did. Just mind boggling. Thgat you waivered so often in the thread doesn't help your argument either.

Maybe you can look up a good workshop on debating?

[JamStone]

So, can you answer: where was he supposed to go?

Once the ball is rotated back to the top of the key, he should drop back down to the low block. Artest should be at the elbow, but he had already cut towards the ball previously and overloaded the left side. But Bynum should not be trying to go out to the three point line elbow to receive the ball.

[JamStone]

Why didn't he pass the ball to Bynum them? A few minutes ago you said it was lazy offense. Now you say he wasn't lazy.

C'mon, you're melting down here.

What is it?

Sorry, clarification. Odom wasn't moving lazily, as you suggested when you said he was late to the spot. Not getting the ball inside was lazy for the Lakers offense in general.

[mogrovejo]

Cause he did. A blind squirrel finds an acorn evey once in awhile. Did he do the right thing consistently, I doubt it. I'm not going to waste time reviewing the video. I will take the man for his word.

It baffles me how a man can admit to not knowing something and you can argue that he did. Just mind boggling. Thgat you waivered so often in the thread doesn't help your argument either.

Maybe you can look up a good workshop on debating?

Oh, Bynum was right.

But he didn't say "I don't know where to be to attack zone offenses, I don't know that the point is to attack the middle, get the ball inside the zone, force it to collapse and fill the empty spaces".

However Jamstone is pretending he did.

And I'm only using your posts as a proxy to make my points, you shouldn't be excited thinking I'm actually discussing basketball with you.

[JamStone]

Okay, but Jamstone is going to be mad at you. He actually agrees that Bynum moved to the right spot in that video.

In the video where Bynum gets in Kobe's and Pau's way and makes a rainbow route around the three point line, are you suggesting that is planned? Do you think that's what he's supposed to do?

Let's refresh your memory.

So Bynum knows what he's doing there when he gets in the way of Kobe's dribble, circles the top of the key, then runs right in front of Pau as Pau is shooting a midrange jumper.

Bynum knows where he's supposed to be there?

oWLgHk2Tgqs

[cobbler]

Top 10 Greatest Talent List: No Stats, No Legacies

Vince Carter should definitely be mentioned more..elite athleticism, one of the best leapers of all-time, good passer and rebounder for his position, shooting range from anywhere on the court..his potential was endless when he was showing flashes to start his career..injuries and lack of intensity towards the game hurt his career..

[mogrovejo]

Once the ball is rotated back to the top of the key, he should drop back down to the low block. Artest should be at the elbow, but he had already cut towards the ball previously and overloaded the left side. But Bynum should not be trying to go out to the three point line elbow to receive the ball.

Another clarification is needed here. Where exactly should have Bynum gone? When Kobe gathers the pass he moves to the baseline? Or with Artest in the left post he shouldn't?

Still don't understand your answer except you seem to think he shouldn't have popped out.

[mogrovejo]

In the video where Bynum gets in Kobe's and Pau's way and makes a rainbow route around the three point line, are you suggesting that is planned? Do you think that's what he's supposed to do?


Planned? Planned? :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

You're completely out of depth, boy.

[mogrovejo]

I have to go, but let me explain you something about zones: after a point, nothing is planned.

Once the zone collapses, there are no patterns whatsoever. There's only one thing to do: find and fill the open space.

When Kobe drives, the zone est finita. They collapse on him and a 3x1in the middle is created.

So, with this in mind, where should have Bynum gone?

[JamStone]

Another clarification is needed here. Where exactly should have Bynum gone? When Kobe gathers the pass he moves to the baseline? Or with Artest in the left post he shouldn't?

Still don't understand your answer except you seem to think he shouldn't have popped out.

Already said it, drop back down to the low block. Someone on the left side should be running baseline to get to that right elbow. It should not be Bynum popping out.



Planned? Planned? :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

You're completely out of depth, boy.

Explain this comment please.

So in that clip, Andrew Bynum knew where he was going? Is that what he was supposed to do, where he was supposed to go?

[cobbler]

Oh, Bynum was right.

But he didn't say "I don't know where to be to attack zone offenses, I don't know that the point is to attack the middle, get the ball inside the zone, force it to collapse and fill the empty spaces".

However Jamstone is pretending he did.

And I'm only using your posts as a proxy to make my points, you shouldn't be excited thinking I'm actually discussing basketball with you.

What he exactly said was " I had no idea where the heck I was supposed to be at and i'm sure I wasn't the only one"

So yes he did say that. That he didn't go into specific details makes no difference. The man clearly admits he was clueless and it showed.

In my book...

1) I had no idea where the heck I was supposed to be
2) I don't know where to be to attack zone offenses

are pretty much saying the same thing... you insist that he never said it. Go figure.

[JamStone]

I have to go, but let me explain you something about zones: after a point, nothing is planned.

Once the zone collapses, there are no patterns whatsoever. There's only one thing to do: find and fill the open space.

When Kobe drives, the zone est finita. They collapse on him and a 3x1in the middle is created.

So, with this in mind, where should have Bynum gone?

How many times do you need the same answer? He should have dropped back down to the low block. One of the players on the overloaded left side should have run baseline to get to the right elbow. Bynum should not be popping out.

As for once the zone collapses, there are no patterns and nothing is planned, when Bynum popped out, the zone had not yet collapsed. The zone had not been penetrated yet. The ball was at the top of the key in Kobe's hands. Kobe had not driven yet.

So answer my question. In the clip, did Bynum know where he was supposed to be? Did Bynum know what he was doing?

[cobbler]

I have to go, but let me explain you something about zones: after a point, nothing is planned.

Once the zone collapses, there are no patterns whatsoever. There's only one thing to do: find and fill the open space.

When Kobe drives, the zone est finita. They collapse on him and a 3x1in the middle is created.

So, with this in mind, where should have Bynum gone?

To your zone workshop fool. You know it all!!!!! :lol

[mogrovejo]

How many times do you need the same answer? He should have dropped back down to the low block. One of the players on the overloaded left side should have run baseline to get to the right elbow. Bynum should not be popping out.

As for once the zone collapses, there are no patterns and nothing is planned, when Bynum popped out, the zone had not yet collapsed. The zone had not been penetrated yet. The ball was at the top of the key in Kobe's hands.

So answer my question. In the clip, did Bynum know where he was supposed to be? Did Bynum know what he was doing?

And he flashed to the elbow to offer the passing lane to get the ball inside.

Wait, I thought that's exactly what you've said multiple times players should be doing.

Now you're saying that when the ball is rotated the players should drop to the low post? I mean, till this moment you've never argued that when the ball is reversed from side to side in the perimeter the post player should go down low. And now suddenly, out of nowhere, that's what Bynum should have done?

Please explain.

[cobbler]

Enough is enough...

Go Lakers!

[JamStone]

And he flashed to the elbow to offer the passing lane to get the ball inside.

Wait, I thought that's exactly what you've said multiple times players should be doing.

Now you're saying that when the ball is rotated the players should drop to the low post? I mean, till this moment you've never argued that when the ball is reversed from side to side in the perimeter the post player should go down low. And now suddenly, out of nowhere, that's what Bynum should have done?

Please explain.

Are you suggesting that Bynum knew what he was doing in that clip.

This clip:


oWLgHk2Tgqs


Is it your position that Andrew Bynum knows what he's doing and where he's supposed to be in the above clip?

Offer a passing lane where? Passing lane to go inside to whom? He's popping out because he doesn't know what the fuck he's doing and where the fuck he's supposed to be.

When the ball goes back to the top, the post player should get back on the low block to set and wait for the ball to get to the elbow of either side. The ball never got to the right elbow. If it had, that would allow Bynum to once again flash to the middle.

Please tell me you're not saying Bynum knew what he was doing in that clip.

[mogrovejo]

What he exactly said was " I had no idea where the heck I was supposed to be at and i'm sure I wasn't the only one"

So yes he did say that. That he didn't go into specific details makes no difference. The man clearly admits he was clueless and it showed.

In my book...

1) I had no idea where the heck I was supposed to be
2) I don't know where to be to attack zone offenses

are pretty much saying the same thing... you insist that he never said it. Go figure.

Correct, he wasn't the only one. Biggest proof: with Bynum on the bench, they weren't any better with the zone.

Your book apparently sucks. Jamstone thinks he knows exactly where to go to attack a zone. Put him in there and he'd have no idea where he was supposed to be and he'd be lost the entire possession.

[mogrovejo]

Are you suggesting that Bynum knew what he was doing in that clip.

This clip:

Is it your position that Andrew Bynum knows what he's doing and where he's supposed to be in the above clip?

No need to keep posting the clip. I've watched it multiple times before you were even aware of its existence.

His movement looks kind of odd, that's what's puzzling you? It doesn't look right, so something must have gone wrong there. That's not how you do video analysis. That's a very misleading to have when analysing film.

Why are you ducking the question?

In that play, Bynum flashed to the elbow to offer the passing lane to get the ball inside.

I thought that's exactly what you've said multiple times players should be doing.

Now you're saying that when the ball is rotated the players should drop to the low post? I mean, till this moment you've never argued that when the ball is reversed from side to side in the perimeter the post player should go down low. And now suddenly, out of nowhere, that's what Bynum should have done?

Please, answer. Please, explain.

[cobbler]

Correct, he wasn't the only one. Biggest proof: with Bynum on the bench, they weren't any better with the zone.

Your book apparently sucks. Jamstone thinks he knows exactly where to go to attack a zone. Put him in there and he'd have no idea where he was supposed to be and he'd be lost the entire possession.

I would imagine you would think my book sucks when it shows you the fool that you are in 2 simple sentences.

Goodnight... and good luck at your next workshop. Maybe when you get done with them mommy will buy you an actual ball.

[JamStone]

Correct, he wasn't the only one. Biggest proof: with Bynum on the bench, they weren't any better with the zone.

Your book apparently sucks. Jamstone thinks he knows exactly where to go to attack a zone. Put him in there and he'd have no idea where he was supposed to be and he'd be lost the entire possession.

Andrew Bynum left the third quarter at the 10:40 mark and was subbed by Lamar Odom. At that point, the Lakers went 7-for-10 from the field and scored 21 points in the next 6:37 until the 4:03 mark when Odom also was subbed out for foul trouble.

[JamStone]

No need to keep posting the clip. I've watched it multiple times before you were even aware of its existence.

His movement looks kind of odd, that's what's puzzling you? It doesn't look right, so something must have went wrong there. That's not how you do video analysis. That's a very misleading to have when analysing film.

Why are you ducking the question?

In that play, Bynum flashed to the elbow to offer the passing lane to get the ball inside.

I thought that's exactly what you've said multiple times players should be doing.

Now you're saying that when the ball is rotated the players should drop to the low post? I mean, till this moment you've never argued that when the ball is reversed from side to side in the perimeter the post player should go down low. And now suddenly, out of nowhere, that's what Bynum should have done?

Please, answer. Please, explain.

You have yet to answer my question, yet you insist on me answering yours.

In that play, Bynum didn't pop out to offer a passing lane. He went out to go get a pass. He didn't know what he was supposed to do. There was no passing lane to get the ball inside on the right side of the set because no other player was there. Offer a passing lane to get the ball inside to whom? There was no one there.

When the ball gets rotated back to the top of the key, the post player drops back to the low block and waits for the ball to get to one side again. When the ball gets to one side, that's when the post player once again flashes to the middle of the zone.

I've answered this like 4 times now. I'm not evading the question. I've answered it. You keep misinterpreting it and making inaccurate assumptions.

The post flashes once the ball gets to one side. One the ball gets rotated to the top of the key, as in the clip, the post re-sets and goes down back to the low block. Once the ball rotates again to one side, the post flashes to the middle of the zone to receive a pass.

There is nothing inconsistent in what I've said. Something has got to be wrong with how you're reading it.

[mogrovejo]

Andrew Bynum left the third quarter at the 10:40 mark and was subbed by Lamar Odom. At that point, the Lakers went 7-for-10 from the field and scored 21 points in the next 6:37 until the 4:03 mark when Odom also was subbed out for foul trouble.

And until that moment Bynum was subbed out, they scored 1.6 points per possession and missed a single shot - a wide open 3 by Kobe. They didn't have a single turnover.

Your point?

[JamStone]

You didn't answer my question. You just said it looked odd. But you didn't answer the question.

In the clip, did Andrew Bynum know what he was doing and know where he was supposed to be?

[JamStone]

And until that moment Bynum was subbed out, they scored 1.6 points per possession and missed a single shot - a wide open 3 by Kobe. They didn't have a single turnover.

Your point?

That was 1 minute and 20 seconds worth of play.

How did they do in the second quarter with Bynum in the game after the Suns started playing zone?

[mogrovejo]

So, if the ball is reversed to the top of the key and Gasol doesn't drop out to the down block and stays in the high post looking for the pass, does it mean that Gasol is yet another NBA veteran that doens't know where to go in a zone?

[JamStone]

So, if the ball is reversed to the top of the key and Gasol doesn't drop out to the down block and stays in the high post looking for the pass, does it mean that Gasol is yet another NBA veteran that doens't know where to go in a zone?

I keep answering your questions. Multiple times.

Are you going to answer my question?

[mogrovejo]

That was 1 minute and 20 seconds worth of play.

How did they do in the second quarter with Bynum in the game after the Suns started playing zone?

ABout the same they did in the 4th with Bynum sitting on the bench.

[JamStone]

ABout the same they did in the 4th with Bynum sitting on the bench.

In the second quarter, after hitting their first two shots not against the zone, the Suns started playing zone, and the Lakers went 0-for-3 from the field until Bynum was subbed out.

[mogrovejo]

I keep answering your questions. Multiple times.

Are you going to answer my question?

What question? I've already said: Bynum flashing out to the 3 point line was the consequence of Kobe's drive and absolutely the right play to do - fill the empty space.

I missed your answer: you do believe Pau Gasol doesn't know how to attack zones as well?! The same Pau Gasol who spent his formative years playing against zones?

Wow, this guy is amazing!!:lmao:lmao

Someone give this man a NBA head-coaching job!

[JamStone]

What question? I've already said: Bynum flashing out to the 3 point line was the consequence of Kobe's drive and absolutely the right play to do - fill the empty space.

I missed your answer: you do believe Pau Gasol doesn't know how to attack zones as well?! The same Pau Gasol who spent his formative years playing against zones?

Wow, this guy is amazing!!:lmao:lmao

Someone give this man a NBA head-coaching job!

edit: Bynum popped out BEFORE Kobe started his drive.

If you truly believe that Andrew Bynum knew what he was doing and where he was supposed to be and made absolutely the right play to pop out, I don't even know what to say. That's just plain dumb. He looked lost and had no idea what he was doing. It should be apparent to anyone who knows even very little about basketball.

Your question is moot. In the clip where you saying Bynum absolutely made the right play popping out, Gasol wasn't playing the post in that set. As you've pointed out, the Lakers have a 1 down and 4 perimeter in their zone offense. Gasol isn't playing the 1 down. Gasol was fine where he was at except for the fact that Artest overloaded that side and Andrew Bynum ran right in front of him as he was taking a jumpshot.

[mogrovejo]

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The ball moved side to side, going through the top of the key, and Gasol stays at the high post instead of dropping down low, as he'd have done if he had a clue about how to attack a zone! It's the middle, attack the middle and don't be lazy!!!! [/Jamstone]

[JamStone]

Andrew Bynum absolutely knows what he's doing against the zone in the following clip /mogrovejo

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[JamStone]

oQh0AYiW23E

The ball moved side to side, going through the top of the key, and Gasol stays at the high post instead of dropping down low, as he'd have done if he had a clue about how to attack a zone! It's the middle, attack the middle and don't be lazy!!!! [/Jamstone]

Where does he pop out to the elbow like Bynum did?

[JamStone]

I was actually wrong about Bynum going to the low block. That's in a high-low offensive set against the zone where there are two post players. I made a mistake because the Lakers run the 1 down 4 perimeter, not a high-low. Sorry. I apologize.

Pau is moving correctly in that clip. He should be running the free throw line right to left flashing to the side the ball is swung to. That's what Bynum should have been doing except the ball wasn't getting swung back and forth. It swung once and back to the top of the key. But still under no circumstances should he be popping out. Again, it wasn't a consequence to Kobe's drive because Bynum popped out before Kobe started his drive.

[mogrovejo]

I was actually wrong about Bynum going to the low block. That's in a high-low offensive set against the zone where there are two post players. I made a mistake because the Lakers run the 1 down 4 perimeter, not a high-low. Sorry. I apologize.

No kidding, Einstein?

You've been wrong this entire thread.


Pau is moving correctly in that clip. He should be running the free throw line right to left flashing to the side the ball is swung to. That's what Bynum should have been doing except the ball wasn't getting swung back and forth. It swung once and back to the top of the key. But still under no circumstances should he be popping out. Again, it wasn't a consequence to Kobe's drive because Bynum popped out before Kobe started his drive.

What the fuck should he have done? For the 8433843th time. You keep saying he shouldn't have done what he did but you're still to explain what he should have done.

It's starting to look like you simply have no fucking clue. Why dont' you just admit it?

[JamStone]

I can admit when I am wrong. Why can't you?

Bynum should have done exactly what Pau did in the clip you showed. Stay in the free throw area high post, facing the ball and ready to flash to either side where the ball would be swung. Exactly what Pau was doing in the clip you should.

He should not pop out. Thank you for showing a clip of where Bynum was supposed to be, as opposed to not having any idea what to do and trying to pop out and then getting in Kobe's way and then running around like a two year old playing tag.

[Ghazi]

Sons, if I have an opinion about football, and Bill Belichick disagrees, I concede defeat.

If I have an opinion about money, and Warren Buffet disagrees, I concede defeat.

Similarly, if I have an opinion about basketball, and mogrovejo :worthy: :worthy: has a differing opinion, I acknowledge I was wrong.

[mogrovejo]

I can admit when I am wrong. Why can't you?

Bynum should have done exactly what Pau did in the clip you showed. Stay in the free throw area high post, facing the ball and ready to flash to either side where the ball would be swung. Exactly what Pau was doing in the clip you should.

He should not pop out. Thank you for showing a clip of where Bynum was supposed to be, as opposed to not having any idea what to do and trying to pop out and then getting in Kobe's way and then running around like a two year old playing tag.

This is amazing.

And for where would Kobe drive?

Is this your "the two players would be in the exact same spot" theory once again? I thought we were already over that.

After 3030 posts and 10 different theories, you're now saying that a player should stay at the free-throw line and move from the left corner to the right corner the entire possession. Does this make any sense? Is this your concept of flashing out to the high post you used so much?

So, now the player flashes out for the hight post from the high post. Then he should flash out to the high posts from the high post and his following action should be flashing out to the high posts. He then resets the action by flashing out to the high post and from the high post he moves to the high post. I mean, when the ball is at the top of the key, should he be at the right high post or left high post?

This makes no sense at all, you're certainly clever enough to see it and it's amazing that you simply refuse to admit it.

You tried to stay true to your stance of "ah, it's simple, I can explain where he should go in a couple of sentences using a few phrases I remember hearing from Hubbie Brown in a broadcast, ah, attack the middle, that was it, and pull a oh, these young players nowadays are so clueless and know no fundamentals". Don't you see it can't be done that way? That your approach to this is very static, that it doesn't work in real life, like I've been saying from the beginning?

I bet you understand that your new stance where the player doesn't flash high and out anymore but just stays there all the time is crazy but you now just don't want to admit that maybe Gasol was lost too - which would make you silly because it'd mean that Bynum was very probably right or that it's entirely possible to know the theory of how attacking a zone but still be lost during the actual action on the floor. Exactly what I've been trying to explain to you the entire thread and that for some silly reason ans stupid traumas ("oh, you used stats from a paid site to embarrass me, that isn't fair") you simply refuse to admit.

If a player in a zone just stays at the free-throw line the entire possession while the others swing the ball from side to side, it's going to be tough to disrupt the zone. I'd even say it's going to be impossible. Bynum doesn't move from there and no way Kobe's drive can be successful. Or maybe he moves and runs into Artest on the other elbow... Sometimes, a step or half a step makes a difference in basketball. I mean, whey they say stuff like they're defending "one step off the line", it's really "one step" and it matters.

The game is way more dynamic, hence much more complicated . That's why coaches use so many diagrams and films. That's why players like Bynum or Gasol can know the generalities you announced and more and still be lost and out of position on the court. The principles are indeed simple and can be announced in a couple of catch phrases as I did in my first paragraph. But the execution on the floor at the level of where a player should move in any instance, isn't easily reduced to the same catch phrases. Just like you can reduce the triangle offense philosophy to a few sentences but it takes hundreds of hours of practice for the players to know it and it's virtually impossible to describe in words "where the players should go".

So, you've already said lots of different things - depending on the last video you saw. When Gasol does something, it's prove that he knows where to be; when Bynum does the exact same thing, it's a fluke. We can probably find a film of Gasol flashing out to the wing to fill a space there and "under no circumstance" no more - you'd change your stance again.

I mean, if you, sitting comfortably at home, with all the time in the world to think out your positions, blessed with such a tremendous knowledge and mastery about zone offenses that you lecture others in the internet, have already changed your position so much, why is it so bizarre to you that the players, who have fraction of seconds to make their decisions and act, may also feel lost in spite of knowing the theory? Because to me it seems that you're no less lost in this thread than Bynum was on the floor of the US Airways Center.

[mogrovejo]

I can elaborate more on this later, but at a very basic level, there are 3 type of offensive systems NBA/basketball coaches use:

- set plays (those plays reunited in a playbook, that the coach or the PG calls)
- patterned offenses (like the Iba hi/lo offense, the flex and the triangle - very rare to see NBA teams running a pure patterned offense)
- read-and-react offenses (like the motion, where the players actions aren't set aprioristically and are counter-moves to the defense moves)

When dealing with a zone defense, you can throw patterns and set plays out of the window.

[Giuseppe]

And all this because Daddy took a 2x4 to Mutombo in the Philly Finals///Colangelo feared a 10 peat///feared O & infinity///convened a blue ribbon panel///decreed rules rendering Daddy extinct. Uh,

fuck me.

[cobbler]

it's also entirely possible to NOT know the theory of how to attack a zone and of course be lost during the actual action on the floor.

Which is what Drew told us. He had no idea where to go.

And regardless of all the complexities of the various zone defenses and contrary to mogros stance, they are quite simple to break and that is exactly why you rarely see them in the NBA. It takes a team effort as you have to "move as one" and if you have one player running around with his head up his ass he will mess the spacing up without a doubt.

You guys can go over two 15 second clips till the cows come home and its not going to tell the whole story or take away from the fact that drew said....

"I had no idea where the heck I was supposed to be at and i'm sure I wasn't the only one"

And mongro argues and says "what drew really meant was" because he just cannot admit that he was wrong. What a pompous ass.

end of story....