Has Kobe Eclipsed Shaq's legacy?

[scanry]

What do you think? And is he the greatest Laker of all of time?

I think he has surpassed Shaq, Kareem and West. What about Magic?

[Medvedenko]

Honestly, if they win the chip this year, he's the greatest Laker ever.

[JMarkJohns]

Maybe Shaq, yes for West... no for Magic and Kareem. I don't think he ever passes Magic.

[TheMACHINE]

not Magic yet...but if he gets his 5th, then he ties him in rings and beats him in the Lakers record books. SO i say yes after this season.

[Pelicans78]

Magic is still the best Laker IMO. He's had a better career at this point with 5 rings and being the best player on most of those teams. In fact, Magic may be the 2nd best player in NBA history behind Jordan.

Kareem won 5 rings in LA as well and was a dominant player in his own right. Kobe may surpassed him as the better Laker, but Kareem still has had a better career at this point especially having 6 rings total. You could make a case for Kareem being the best center in NBA history. Definitely the best offensive center in history.

[HarlemHeat37]

If he wins the title this year, you could make the argument against Shaq..I don't know if I would, I'd have to think about it, but he would have a good argument..

He has absolutely no argument vs. Magic or Kareem(overall career, not just as a Laker) though, even if he wins a title this year..he doesn't have the individual accolades of either guy(not even close, really), and his peak definitely wasn't as high as either guy..

[BRHornet45]

how? the dude has never once been the leading man on a championship team! if the Lakers win it this season, well its still a toss up between Kobe and Gasol as to which one is the true team leader.

[JMarkJohns]

I don't think there was a Laker with a single greater impact than Magic.

[Pelicans78]

Magic may have won more if not having to retire early.

[HarlemHeat37]

Honestly, if they win the chip this year, he's the greatest Laker ever.

:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin

[BRHornet45]

Shaq won all 3 finals MVP awards and held Kobe's hand every step of the way ... last season Gasol was the team leader and without a doubt the only reason the Lakers won and everyone knows it ... this season its arguably a toss up between Gasol and Kobe because Gasol has been struggling a bit.

[TheMACHINE]

damn guys...you act as if Kobe was freaking Adam Morrison when he got those first 3 rings.

[scanry]

Magic may have won more if not having to retire early.

Not a chance. Jordan was on his way and ain't nobody, and i mean Magic, Hakeem, Malone or Barkley could've stopped Jordan.

[BRHornet45]

damn guys...you act as if Kobe was freaking Adam Morrison when he got those first 3 rings.

no son that's not true. Kobe is one of the best role players of all time. its just downright ignorant and stupid to list him as one of the best players of all time though. top 50-75? yea ... but he is absolutely nowhere near the top.

[TheMACHINE]

^^man i miss the old you.

[scanry]

damn guys...you act as if Kobe was freaking Adam Morrison when he got those first 3 rings.

Not Morrison bad, but he was probably Pippen good...

[BRHornet45]

Not Morrison bad, but he was probably Pippen good...

this

[Pelicans78]

Not a chance. Jordan was on his way and ain't nobody, and i mean Magic, Hakeem, Malone or Barkley could've stopped Jordan.

That's true.

[sonic21]

He's behind kareem and magic, Baylor and Shaq were better players than kobe but they didn't win enough.

[baseline bum]

Honestly, if they win the chip this year, he's the greatest Laker ever.

Over Magic? Are you nuts? If he has a Finals anything like his WCF then he'll eclipse Shaq, but I can't seriously believe that anyone who saw Magic play could ever put another Laker player in front of him. I ain't trying to hate on Kobe, but Magic hit a gamewinner in the Finals in Boston Garden and won 2 titles in 3 tries vs the best teams the Celtics have ever had.

[HarlemHeat37]

Baylor wasn't a better player than Kobe..

Shaq has the same amount of rings as Kobe, only 1 of them coming as a sidekick, so what do you mean by that?..

[BRHornet45]

He's behind kareem and magic, Baylor and Shaq were better players than kobe but they didn't win enough.

Shaq didn't win enough???! .... dude he single handedly won 3 championships for L.A. lol

[scanry]

IMO Magic will always be the greatest Laker of all time. He accomplished far more than Kobe has done up until now in 2 less seasons.

[sonic21]

Baylor wasn't a better player than Kobe..

Shaq has the same amount of rings as Kobe, only 1 of them coming as a sidekick, so what do you mean by that?..

i meant in the all time lakers list, of course shaq and duncan owned the decade. But kobe can surpass him and win at least 2 rings with a very stacked team.

and yes i think baylor is underrated.

[Nahtanoj]

Whatever you say, the haters are always going to break out the old "Shaq held Kobe's hand to the first three ships" phrase. Anybody who watched the playoff games during 2000-02 know that Kobe was the go to guy in the clutch, always the guy making the key plays down the stretch.. whether its from the top of the key/freethrowline/elbow isolation/kick, or getting key rebounds and putbacks (vs Indiana, San Antonio etc). Shaq was the bread and butter of the offense, but Kobe was always the closer.

[BRHornet45]

sons honestly I think that Fisher deserves to be right up there and arguably ahead of Kobe's status as a Laker. dude has always been clutch and actually improves his teammates and makes smart shot selections. Kobe has actually made his teammates worse and has been extremely lucky over the years when many of his teammates have bailed him out when making selfish shot decisions. (most recently Gasol saving his ass in OKC with the tip in after that ridiculously selfish shot, and then Artest saving his embarrassing air ball the other night)

[Nahtanoj]

Shaq didn't win enough???! .... dude he single handedly won 3 championships for L.A. lol

lol @ singlehandedly. i'm sure he was winning alot with Eddie Jones, Nick Van Excel etc before Bryant started getting major minutes.

[Nahtanoj]

sons honestly I think that Fisher deserves to be right up there and arguably ahead of Kobe's status as a Laker. dude has always been clutch and actually improves his teammates and makes smart shot selections. Kobe has actually made his teammates worse and has been extremely lucky over the years when many of his teammates have bailed him out when making selfish shot decisions. (most recently Gasol saving his ass in OKC with the tip in after that ridiculously selfish shot, and then Artest saving his embarrassing air ball the other night)

Hi Amare.

[BRHornet45]

lol @ singlehandedly. i'm sure he was winning alot with Eddie Jones, Nick Van Excel etc before Bryant started getting major minutes.

LOL take Shaq off of that team and the Lakers are a first round exit or probably wouldn't even make the playoffs. take Kobe off of that team and they are easily still title contenders. (and probably would have won 4 in a row)

by the way, how did Kobe do during those 2-3 years without Shaq holding his hand? .... oh yea that's right! first round knockouts, not making the playoffs one year, and then crying to the media that he wanted to be traded! then Gasol comes to town and carries Kobe and the Lakers back to elite status all the while Kobe receives ALL of the credit in the media. pathetic.

[Booharv]

Who's operating the BRHornet45 troll?

[TheMACHINE]

Who's operating the BRHornet45 troll?

lol...im wondering the same thing

[BRHornet45]

sons this is nothing new I have always spoken the truth about Kobe. its amazing to me how blind many of you are about this clown. sure he is an outstanding talent and one of the best role players in NBA history ... but one of the game's best? are you serious? well then I guess Scottie Pippen should be listed in the top 5 best too then! lol... the media in this country has most of you all wrapped around their fingers. they can sell you anything and you will believe it!!!

[Nahtanoj]

LOL take Shaq off of that team and the Lakers are a first round exit or probably wouldn't even make the playoffs. take Kobe off of that team and they are easily still title contenders. (and probably would have won 4 in a row)

by the way, how did Kobe do during those 2-3 years without Shaq holding his hand? .... oh yea that's right! first round knockouts, not making the playoffs one year, and then crying to the media that he wanted to be traded! then Gasol comes to town and carries Kobe and the Lakers back to elite status all the while Kobe receives ALL of the credit in the media. pathetic.

How is the NO Hornets rebuilding process going atm?

[Nahtanoj]

lol...im wondering the same thing

It's fun. ;)

[baseline bum]

How is the NO Hornets rebuilding process going atm?



It's spelled a2m.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Magic, Kareem and Kobe are now all in the same discussion, but I think it's wise to wait until Kobe is done to decide the order.

The last couple of years, the way he measures his game and steps up at crucial moments, Kobe has reminded me a lot of second Three-peat MJ. By then Michael could no longer rely on his legs, so instead he developed a killer low-post fadeaway and started picking his spots to go to the rack or become a distributor and creator.

Some part of me very deep down inside despises Kobe Bryant the human being, but as a basketball player he is entering the true pantheon of the greatest players the game has ever seen (top 10). What he does over the next 2-3 years will determine just how great. I won't barrack for the fucker, but I will appreciate his basketball artistry and dominance.

[BRHornet45]

How is the NO Hornets rebuilding process going atm?

son the Hornets have a lot of problems. this is no secret. however the Mercury are in season now and that's all that matters at the moment.

[Nahtanoj]

sons this is nothing new I have always spoken the truth about Kobe. its amazing to me how blind many of you are about this clown. sure he is an outstanding talent and one of the best role players in NBA history ... but one of the game's best? are you serious? well then I guess Scottie Pippen should be listed in the top 5 best too then! lol... the media in this country has most of you all wrapped around their fingers. they can sell you anything and you will believe it!!!

Ok. I'm sold. Kobe is one of the best role players in NBA history.

[BRHornet45]

Ok. I'm sold. Kobe is one of the best role players in NBA history.

son I'll co-sign the hell out of that statement!

there has never been any doubting that Kobe is an outstanding talent. however he lacks common sense on the basketball court (and in his personal life as well), and he has a very selfish mentality being one of the biggest chuckers to ever play the game. he is a great asset to have as a role player, but is nothing more than a "glorified Paul Pierce" in the media.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Oh, and seeing Kobe play in person is a totally different experience to seeing him on TV. When I saw him in 2003 and 2007 he kinda glided around the court somehow - he seemed to hover and hardly touch the ground at times. It was very strange. Very few players have that, although I bet MJ had it too, and maybe guys like LBJ and 'Nique have it as well...

[baseline bum]

Oh, and seeing Kobe play in person is a totally different experience to seeing him on TV. When I saw him in 2003 and 2007 he kinda glided around the court somehow - he seemed to hover and hardly touch the ground at times. It was very strange. Very few players have that, although I bet MJ had it too, and maybe guys like LBJ and 'Nique have it as well...

I never got that impression watching Jordan live; seemed more like brute force, but it was weird seeing it out of a guard.

[Nahtanoj]

Magic, Kareem and Kobe are now all in the same discussion, but I think it's wise to wait until Kobe is done to decide the order.

The last couple of years, the way he measures his game and steps up at crucial moments, Kobe has reminded me a lot of second Three-peat MJ. By then Michael could no longer rely on his legs, so instead he developed a killer low-post fadeaway and started picking his spots to go to the rack or become a distributor and creator.

Some part of me very deep down inside despises Kobe Bryant the human being, but as a basketball player he is entering the true pantheon of the greatest players the game has ever seen (top 10). What he does over the next 2-3 years will determine just how great. I won't barrack for the fucker, but I will appreciate his basketball artistry and dominance.

Kobe's not a very likeable guy that's partly due to his personality. He'll never be a Magic or an MJ in the media (and to our eyes). But to deny his talent and achievements is just pure hating.

[Nahtanoj]

son I'll co-sign the hell out of that statement!

there has never been any doubting that Kobe is an outstanding talent. however he lacks common sense on the basketball court (and in his personal life as well), and he has a very selfish mentality being one of the biggest chuckers to ever play the game. he is a great asset to have as a role player, but is nothing more than a "glorified Paul Pierce" in the media.

Son you're that thick huh..

[Nahtanoj]

I never got that impression watching Jordan live; seemed more like brute force, but it was weird seeing it out of a guard.

Jordan had everything, strength-grace-power-finese. That's what made him great. He was a complete player.

[Killakobe81]

LOL take Shaq off of that team and the Lakers are a first round exit or probably wouldn't even make the playoffs. take Kobe off of that team and they are easily still title contenders. (and probably would have won 4 in a row)
by the way, how did Kobe do during those 2-3 years without Shaq holding his hand? .... oh yea that's right! first round knockouts, not making the playoffs one year, and then crying to the media that he wanted to be traded! then Gasol comes to town and carries Kobe and the Lakers back to elite status all the while Kobe receives ALL of the credit in the media. pathetic.

Ummm No.

shaqq never won BEFORE Kobe and owes a MAvs choke and A Jordanesque performance from Wade to win ONE after ...

[Nahtanoj]

Ummm No.

shaqq never won BEFORE Kobe and owes a MAvs choke and A Jordanesque performance from Wade to win ONE after ...

Jordan never got FTs like Wade did in those Finals. Actually I've never seen anyone get that amount of FTs in the Finals, maybe Shaq 2000 and a lot was hackashaq.

[HarlemHeat37]

FTs or not, that was probably the best Finals performance of the decade..

[Nahtanoj]

FTs or not, that was probably the best Finals performance of the decade..

Individual Finals performance? Probably.

I think Shaq's 2000 is up there too, clutch or not, it was great numbers.

[SevenX]

Shaq didn't win enough???! .... dude he single handedly won 3 championships for L.A. lol

:lmao:lmao:lmao

2002 Kobe Finals

26.8 pts - 51.4% fg - 54.5% 3pt

5.8 reb - 5.3 assists

1.5 steals - .75 blocks

3.8 to



Start giving him credit for 2 finals. If he wins it this year this will be his 3rd ring while playing a 1st option role.

[resistanze]

:lmao:lmao:lmao

2002 Kobe Finals

26.8 pts - 51.4% fg - 54.5% 3pt

5.8 reb - 5.3 assists

1.5 steals - .75 blocks

3.8 to



Start giving him credit for 2 finals. If he wins it this year this will be his 3rd ring while playing a 1st option role.

Shaq in 2002 Finals - 36.3 points, 12.3 rebounds and 2.75 blocks. No.

The truth about Kobe's is somewhere in the middle. He wasn't a bench warmer like some Kobe haters want you to believe, nor was he the MJ #1 option like some delusional Laker homers try to argue. Shaq was a 1 and Kobe was a 1.5 during their run.

Anyways to answer the question of the OP, Kobe will very clearly eclipse Shaq with a win this year, if he hasn't already and will only be behind Magic.

[Pelicans78]

lol @ singlehandedly. i'm sure he was winning alot with Eddie Jones, Nick Van Excel etc before Bryant started getting major minutes.

Lakers winning coincided with Phil Jackson. They were a dysfunctional team getting swept every year before Jackson took over as coach.

[JamStone]

Shaq in 2002 Finals - 36.3 points, 12.3 rebounds and 2.75 blocks. No.

The truth about Kobe's is somewhere in the middle. He wasn't a bench warmer like some Kobe haters want you to believe, nor was he the MJ #1 option like some delusional Laker homers try to argue. Shaq was a 1 and Kobe was a 1.5 during their run.

Anyways to answer the question of the OP, Kobe will very clearly eclipse Shaq with a win this year, if he hasn't already and will only be behind Magic.

I tend to agree with that. For as great as Kareem was, several of his later titles with the Lakers was essentially as a role player, not only after Magic but often after Worthy as well. Interestingly, Kareem wasn't even a double digit rebounder (regular season or playoffs) for his final 8 seasons with the Lakers, including his final four championship runs with the Lakers, and despite still playing 32+ mpg for all but two of those seasons. Kareem has a more storied career obviously, but I think as a Laker, Kobe might already rank slightly above him now, leaving him only behind Magic.

Two more titles gets him one ahead of Magic. If that happens and perhaps one more league MVP (after this season if the Lakers win it and with how LeBron exited, Kobe might be the favorite next year even if he doesn't put up better numbers), I think he'll have a pretty strong argument as the greatest Laker ever. But those are still plenty of "ifs" before we can start making the argument.

[Ashy Larry]

no son that's not true. Kobe is one of the best role players of all time. its just downright ignorant and stupid to list him as one of the best players of all time though. top 50-75? yea ... but he is absolutely nowhere near the top.


you have to be near the top when you are considered by many and most the second greatest SG of all time. Name another one who's better .......

[Ashy Larry]

As far as Bean being the greatest Laker, this championship can also break his back as well.

Jerry West ..... smoked by the Celtics during the 60s

Magic Johnson ...... 2-1 versus the C's in the 80's and easily could have been 3-0
- Worthy's brutal pass overshadowed a great game by him.
- up five points and possession of the ball in game 4 with 59 secs. on the clock

Kobe Bryant ..... 0-1 versus the C's in the finals. Dude needs to square his record.

[mogrovejo]

A guy with 1 MVP and 1 title as the first option for his team (and a stacked one in the 30 teams era)?

Hmmm... no. Not even close.

[TheManFromAcme]

Kobe may very well eclipse Shaq's legacy as a Laker when Shaq was laker but that's about it at least in my opinion. No way Kobe eclipses Magic, no way. Kobe is popular with the young uns in here. Magic on the other is popular with those who lived, breathed, ate "Showtime" Laker basketball like myself hence why Kobe isn't that much of a big deal to me as he is with others in here. It's a generational thing.

When Kobe gets a bigger statue in front of Staples, then maybe we can talk.

[Capt Bringdown]

I think Magic's not only the greatest Laker ever, but probably the greatest NBA player ever as well. Look at who he beat, it doesn't compare to the stiffs Jordan ran over in the 90's. Magic was the man, and Showtime era Lakers would have destroyed any and all present-day comers, including Kobe & Shaq, Kobe and Gasol and yes, even Tim Duncan and co.

[TheManFromAcme]

I think Magic's not only the greatest Laker ever, but probably the greatest NBA player ever as well. Look at who he beat, it doesn't compare to the stiffs Jordan ran over in the 90's. Magic was the man, and Showtime era Lakers would have destroyed any and all present-day comers, including Kobe & Shaq, Kobe and Gasol and yes, even Tim Duncan and co.

:toast Well put CB....

Magic is INCREDIBLY popular with the older Hemisfair-days Spurs fan.

[TDMVPDPOY]

how me ass taste like kobe

[TampaDude]

I think Magic's not only the greatest Laker ever, but probably the greatest NBA player ever as well. Look at who he beat, it doesn't compare to the stiffs Jordan ran over in the 90's. Magic was the man, and Showtime era Lakers would have destroyed any and all present-day comers, including Kobe & Shaq, Kobe and Gasol and yes, even Tim Duncan and co.

+1 The Showtime Lakers were awesome. I put Magic right up there with Jordan, TBH.

As far as Kobe is concerned, he put up some great #s in the WCF, but the real test is coming up against Boston. I know Kobe still has a bitter taste in his mouth from 2008, and wants payback. He may very well get it...we'll see.

[ginobili's bald spot]

how me ass taste like kobe

GTFO you shit fetish sicko.

[DAF86]

In terms of stats and fan recognition yes, but Shaq in his prime >>> Kobe at any point. Jordan is the only player that I've seen that was more dominant than Shaq.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If Kobe wins a championship this year, I put him 3rd all time behind Jordan and Kareem. If he wins another one next year, I put him 2nd all time.

[JamStone]

While I agree that Magic beat better teams, beat a lot of championship teams, and I do believe Jordan didn't have as great a competition as in the 80s until those Lakers, Boston, Detroit teams got old, and while I'm as big a Michael Jordan hater as there is on these boards, I won't sell the guy short. Especially if you look at teams like the Stockton-Malone Jazz or even the one year Phoenix got there, or even the Blazers, Michael Jordan is the very reason they didn't win at least one championship. Jordan's competition would have been viewed differently had one or two of those teams at least one title. Jordan prevented that from happening.

Jordan >>>>> Magic

And I was a huge Magic fan growing up and admitted Jordan hater.

As far as Kobe goes and having only one title as the go to guy, let's not misrepresent history. For at least two of those championships, arguably three, Magic wasn't the "number one option" despite being the engine of the team. I would at least give Kobe partial no. 1 status for the 2002 title. And if the Lakers win another one this year, it's his third. Enough of the Kobe discredit with claims that Pau is the main guy. That is beyond reason. Pau is a huge piece for the Lakers, but Kobe is still the reason the Lakers win games and won last year and have a chance to win this year.

[diego]

a month ago people were saying he was done, now he has a good series and people are calling him the best laker of all time?

first, let the lakers beat the celtics in the finals (shaq has already lost more finals than kobe has, he isnt breaking new ground there). second, let kobe be the determining factor (its likely that IF the lakers win, it will be because their frontcourt outplayed the celtics frontcourt, not because their backcourt outplays the C's backcourt). and even then, he'll still have less league MVP or finals MVPs than icons like kareem and magic.



how about we put it the other way around- if kobe loses, is he the biggest disappointment of all time? after all, the only finals he won as 1st option was against a young team with poor depth, whose superstar's only claim to fame is a DPOY award and a slam dunk championship, and that likely would have been eliminated before the finals if the celtics had been healthy... so if the celts win and pierce gets another finals mvp, should we be talking about the celtics lost 3peat, and pierce eclipsing every celtic this side of bird and russel? please...

[baseline bum]

A guy with 1 MVP and 1 title as the first option for his team (and a stacked one in the 30 teams era)?

Hmmm... no. Not even close.

Seems like most people here are conditioning on whether he wins this title, so it'd be 2 rings as the #1 option.

[mogrovejo]

Seems like most people here are conditioning on whether he wins this title, so it'd be 2 rings as the #1 option.

Yeah, still not close. Lacks the extended dominance as the best player in the league.

[SevenX]

Shaq in 2002 Finals - 36.3 points, 12.3 rebounds and 2.75 blocks. No.

The truth about Kobe's is somewhere in the middle. He wasn't a bench warmer like some Kobe haters want you to believe, nor was he the MJ #1 option like some delusional Laker homers try to argue. Shaq was a 1 and Kobe was a 1.5 during their run.

Anyways to answer the question of the OP, Kobe will very clearly eclipse Shaq with a win this year, if he hasn't already and will only be behind Magic.

Doesn't matter what Shaq put up. Kobe still has the stats of a 1st option so he deserves credit for 2 rings. Put anyone in Kobe's place with their finals performance in 2002 and they also won't get a finals mvp. Shaq was just that good.

Kobe put up better stats in 2002 than in 2009 yet he only gets credit for 2009. It's really fucking stupid. And just because he also deserves credit for 2002 (making him have 2 rings as 1st option importance) doesn't mean he's better than Shaq. Why must it be one or the other? Truth is in 2002, both Shaq and Kobe deserve equal credit for their performances. I won't argue for 2000 and 2001 since Shaq clearly had the edge.

[baseline bum]

Yeah, still not close. Lacks the extended dominance as the best player in the league.

You could say Kareem was the best player a lot the early 80s, Bird the best player a lot of the mid 80s, and Jordan the best of the late 80s, thus making Magic's reign as the best player in the league pretty short too.

[Bob Lanier]

Kareem was the best player in the NBA from 1969 to 1981, but I think Moses Malone deserved at least one MVP in the early '80s. Moreover, I don't think Jordan was the best player in the league until he stopped just chucking in '88 or so. Johnson and Bird were equally good in the middle of the decade.

As for the 2000s and 2010s... well, there really has not been a year when Bryant was even arguably the indisputable best player in the game.

[21_Blessings]

Kareem was the best player in the NBA from 1969 to 1981,

This doesn't add up with what you said below. There were a handful of players playing during those years that had argument for best player at one time or another.


As for the 2000s and 2010s... well, there really has not been a year when Bryant was even arguably the indisputable best player in the game.

Dumb. :lmao

[hitmanyr2k]

I think Magic's not only the greatest Laker ever, but probably the greatest NBA player ever as well. Look at who he beat, it doesn't compare to the stiffs Jordan ran over in the 90's. Magic was the man, and Showtime era Lakers would have destroyed any and all present-day comers, including Kobe & Shaq, Kobe and Gasol and yes, even Tim Duncan and co.

Stiffs? Are you kidding me? The Showtime Lakers had a cupcake Western Conference they beat up on every year before they made it to the Finals. Hell, the '87 Lakers team had to beat a sub-.500 team and then two .500 teams to get to the Finals. In the 80's the Celtics were in the harder conference BY FAR with the Bucks, Sixers, and then Pistons to contend with.

80's West = 2000-2003 East.

[Ghazi]

Kobe has more legitimate rings than Shaq.

[21_Blessings]

Shaq will be forever stained for not being able to close a game. When a 21 year old is the goto guy down the stretch when you're in your prime then you clearly have gaping flaw in your basketball game. Hakeem had it. Shaq didn't.

Then there is defense. Shaq could have been one of the greatest defenders ever. But he wasn't. Kobe has always been the better two-way player.

[mogrovejo]

To me Bird and Magic were the best players in the league between 1982 and 1989. Some years Bird was better, others it was Magic.

Kobe was a bit unlucky because in those years he could have claimed the throne before LeBron's emergence guys like Garnett and Wade had better seasons than him. I think Kobe's best years were between 2003 and 2007 and even in his peak he wasn't clearly above a lot of other MVP contenders.

[Ignignokt]

Sons, laugh all you want, but Pippen still went to the playoffs when Jordan was playing baseball.

[resistanze]

Shaq will be forever stained for not being able to close a game. When a 21 year old is the goto guy down the stretch when you're in your prime then you clearly have gaping flaw in your basketball game. Hakeem had it. Shaq didn't.

Then there is defense. Shaq could have been one of the greatest defenders ever. But he wasn't. Kobe has always been the better two-way player.

I don't think it's much of a debate that Kobe has/will surpass Shaq career-wise by the time it's all over.

[hitmanyr2k]

To me Bird and Magic were the best players in the league between 1982 and 1989. Some years Bird was better, others it was Magic.

Kobe was a bit unlucky because in those years he could have claimed the throne before LeBron's emergence guys like Garnett and Wade had better seasons than him. I think Kobe's best years were between 2003 and 2007 and even in his peak he wasn't clearly above a lot of other MVP contenders.

Yank 2005 out of there. Dude slipped to All-NBA third team that year and even that was a gift like his All-Defense selections :lol

[mingus]

if he wins this year, or another championship, then yes.

[mogrovejo]

Yank 2005 out of there. Dude slipped to All-NBA third team that year and even that was a gift like his All-Defense selections :lol

Just because he had a LeBron type supporting cast and won 38 games or so. If he were surrounded by the same talent this season, he would make All-NBA 3rd team again.

But that's what I mean by lack of dominance - can you see Jordan in his prime not making the 1st team?

[TheMACHINE]

Championships as a Laker player, years playing for the Lakers, Records broken as a Laker player...i think after this year, If Kobe wins his 5th, he'll be the best laker player of all time.

[21_Blessings]

Kobe would certainly have the argument and that's all that really matters.

But I'd still put him a notch below Magic ..9 finals in 11 years. Won the :lobt: with Kareem hurt in game 6 which gets under-looked.

Kobe isn't going anywhere though. He's got at least 3 years at a high level left and he'd still probably put up 20+ppg in his sleep into his late 30s.

[LnGrrrR]

What do you think? And is he the greatest Laker of all of time?

I think he has surpassed Shaq, Kareem and West. What about Magic?

In order: Yes, Possibly, not for the old-timers, definitely not.

[Gutter92]

Honestly, if they win the chip this year, he's the greatest Laker ever.

:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lmao

[Donkeybong]

Kobe will be the greatest Laker when it's all said and done.

[Venti Quattro]

He beats the Celtics in this year's edition of the Rivalry, he's in the discussion with Magic as the greatest Laker of all time. Even greater than Shaq.

The Celtics are always a rite of passage for the Lakers and vice-versa.

[Smooth Criminal]

how? the dude has never once been the leading man on a championship team! if the Lakers win it this season, well its still a toss up between Kobe and Gasol as to which one is the true team leader.
How many titles did Magic win?
How many did Shaq win?

[ChrisRichards]

Championships as a Laker player, years playing for the Lakers, Records broken as a Laker player...i think after this year, If Kobe wins his 5th, he'll be the best laker player of all time.
homer? is that you? doh!

[ChrisRichards]

I have it...

Magic





Kobe
West
Kareem
Shaq
Worthy

Kobe would have to win 6-7 titles to eclipse Magic. .

+1. the way it should be.

[TD 21]

Laker legacy or overall legacy? I'd say no to the former and hell no to the latter.

People need to stop pretending with this revisionist history, because the further and further we get away from Duncan's and in particular, O'Neal's prime, the more it's forgotten that they were by far the two best players in the league for a large part of Bryant's career.

Historically, he's below Johnson, Abdul-Jabbar, O'Neal, Duncan etc. He can pile on ten more of these gifted championships, nothing is going to change that, even though the media is desperate to have us believe it is.

Speaking of Abdul-Jabbar, I actually think he's underrated historically. Like Duncan, he didn't fit the mold of an all-time great basketball player personality/attitude/flash wise, so he rarely get's his just do.

I hear constant talk about Jordan, Johnson, Bird, Bryant, James, etc. and big men in general are often left out. Then when they're mentioned, it's all about Russell and Chamberlain. Can anyone make a legit case for Abdul-Jabbar not being one of the three greatest players of all-time?

[Pelicans78]

West and Kareem are tough. Kareem won more rings, but he played with Magic who is arguably the 2nd best player in history behind Jordan. Kobe has a chance to eclipse Magic. I'm not a huge Kobe guy, but I can't deny his talent.

[LakeShow]

Kobe eclipsed Shaq's legacy last season. If Kobe wins a title this season he would move ahead of Magic. I luv buck but MJ was a better player and Kobe Bryant is proving to be better as well. I'ts Michael and Kobe, that's it! It will be Kobe and Michael when it's all said and done.

[Mikesatx]

For a franchise as storied as the Lakers do you want Kobe as the best Laker ever? Had shaq stayed decent chance that he isn't going for 5 but maybe 6, 7, or 8. He takes a good portion of the blame for Shaq leaving and sprinkle on the Rape charge. In 10 years is this the guy you want as the franchise best ever?

[TD 21]

Only to the uninformed it'll be "Michael and Kobe when it's all said and done". To those of us that are informed, Bryant still will be behind more than a handful of players, before even considering Jordan.

By the way, I said "just do" in my last post. Of course I meant "just due".

[LakeShow]

Kobe gave us no choice with his stellar play. We can only go by what he's done on the court. On the court Kobe is the Best Lakers player ever.

if he wins this season.

[LakeShow]

I had the pleasure to watch Magic, Jordan and Kobe throughout their careers. They were all Great. Magic Johnson is my all time favorite Lakers player but not to be a homer, i realize and except that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant are the best basketball players to ever suit up in the NBA.

[Shastafarian]

I have it...

Magic





Kobe
West
Kareem
Shaq
Worthy

Kobe would have to win 6-7 titles to eclipse Magic. He'll get his fifth with ease, and it's going to take some smart off season moves to stop him from getting his sixth. When it's all said and done, Kobe will be at the top holding most the Laker records, and the most titles.

Mikan doesn't get any love? He brought 5 titles to Minneapolis.

[Mikesatx]

I think he is there with Jordan on a talent basis but its a team sport. What would his legacy be if the Lakers weren't given Gasol? The loss to the Pistons when the Lakers were favored and the obliteration by the C's in 08' make it hard to put him as number 2.

[LakeShow]

Lakers fans get sentimental when it comes to Magic. We all love him like he's family. It took years for a lot of us to except that Michael Jordan was a better player even when it was painfully obvious. Magic changed the game and brought excitement and championships to the city. Not being called the best Lakers player wont change anything. He is the Most liked Lakers player of all time. That's undisputed.

[TheMACHINE]

I think he is there with Jordan on a talent basis but its a team sport. What would his legacy be if the Lakers weren't given Gasol? The loss to the Pistons when the Lakers were favored and the obliteration by the C's in 08' make it hard to put him as number 2.

Horrible.

In one paragraph, you just discredited his wins by mentioning Gasol, and blamed him when they lost in the Finals (even when he wasnt the "#1" guy at the Pistons loss).

Pretty much a no win situation with you.

[LakeShow]

I think he is there with Jordan on a talent basis but its a team sport. What would his legacy be if the Lakers weren't given Gasol? The loss to the Pistons when the Lakers were favored and the obliteration by the C's in 08' make it hard to put him as number 2.

The NBA title is a team accomplishment. One player can not win it. Having talent doesn't alway win titles. Having players who know their roles and perform them usually do. The Kobe and Jordan were huge contributors in their teams success but its a team sport. Its a win no matter how you look at it!

Malone and Grant (who was the backup center to Shaq that season) being injured might have had something to do with it that season. just saying,..

[Mikesatx]

Horrible.

In one paragraph, you just discredited his wins by mentioning Gasol, and blamed him when they lost in the Finals (even when he wasnt the "#1" guy at the Pistons loss).

Pretty much a no win situation with you.


If he wasn't the #1 against the Pistons then he logically couldn't be the #1 for the 3 previous rings. How could he be best Laker ever if by that logic he has been the #1 for 1 championship?

[TheMACHINE]

If he wasn't the #1 against the Pistons then he logically couldn't be the #1 for the 3 previous rings. How could he be best Laker ever if by that logic he has been the #1 for 1 championship?

so chose 1 then. My point is, your logic shows the negatives of both sides. He won cuz of Gasol, oh and I'll blame him for the loss with the Pistons when he had Shaq, which is totally biased.

[Mikesatx]

I gave him credit for the championship with Gasol. I placed the blame for the loss to the Pistons. If he wasn't the go to guy in that series and therefore didn't deserve the blame for that loss how does he get credit as the go to guy when they won the three previous? With that logic how can he be up there with Jordan when Jordan was clearly the man for all 6 titles?

[TheMACHINE]

I gave him credit for the championship with Gasol. I placed the blame for the loss to the Pistons. If he wasn't the go to guy in that series and therefore didn't deserve the blame for that loss how does he get credit as the go to guy when they won the three previous? With that logic how can he be up there with Jordan when Jordan was clearly the man for all 6 titles?

someone who thinks he is better then Jordan needs answer those questions for you. Im just here to clarify your thought process.

[Mikesatx]

The question was whether he was the best Laker ever. Someone mentioned second all time behind Jordan. Do you think he is the best Laker ever?

[TheMACHINE]

The question was whether he was the best Laker ever. Someone mentioned second all time behind Jordan. Do you think he is the best Laker ever?

I think if he wins this championship, and based on the amount of years with the Lakers and also the records he set as a Laker, then he would have a slight edge over Magic.

[Why So Serious]

Who gives a fuck about eclipsing legacies. Even if you hate him appreciate what he brings to the court because it is not every day you see someone of his caliber.

Personally all I care about is winning the ring and imo when it is all said and done kobe will be recognized for his accomplishments. I don't care if he is recognized as the best player ever, best laker, top 10, top 20 (any useless title). Determining who is the best to lace them up and giving rankings is near impossible because everyone has their own opinion.

Enjoy it while it lasts even if you are a hater because he is a damn good player.

[Mikesatx]

Who gives a fuck about eclipsing legacies. Even if you hate him appreciate what he brings to the court because it is not every day you see someone of his caliber.

Personally all I care about is winning the ring and imo when it is all said and done kobe will be recognized for his accomplishments. I don't care if he is recognized as the best player ever, best laker, top 10, top 20 (any useless title). Determining who is the best to lace them up and giving rankings is near impossible because everyone has their own opinion.

Enjoy it while it lasts even if you are a hater because he is a damn good player.


Kobe is a great player and there is probably no player in today's game that I would fear more than Kobe with the ball in his hands and the game on the line. The topic though is his place in Laker lore. I find it interesting that a guy that chased out one of the top five Lakers of all time and with him arguably more championships. A guy that was accused of rape and then when the franchise stood by him demanded a trade because there wasn't enough around him could be considered the greatest for a franchise as storied as yours.

[Why So Serious]

Kobe is a great player and there is probably no player in today's game that I would fear more than Kobe with the ball in his hands and the game on the line. The topic though is his place in Laker lore. I find it interesting that a guy that chased out one of the top five Lakers of all time and with him arguably more championships. A guy that was accused of rape and then when the franchise stood by him demanded a trade because there wasn't enough around him could be considered the greatest for a franchise as storied as yours.

And what I am saying is who gives a flying fuck who is the best. Some will say magic, some will say kobe, some will say shaq and so on. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But some folks flip the fuck out/get their panties in a bunch when folks give their own opinion which is comical imo. :lol

And the whole shaq thing is over played imo. Everything worked out fine/for the best as it stands now.

[Mikesatx]

I think its impotant to most fans of any sports team. You want the titles but the history and legacy is important especially when the franchise has had the success to build it. I think as a Laker fan that cares about that you ride Kobe for as many titles as he can get you and then treat him with the same respect he gave Laker fan when things weren't so good. I don't know how much loyalty should count in determining something like this but in my mind it should count for something.

[lefty]

Honestly, if they win the chip this year, he's the greatest Laker ever.
Wow :rollin

[urunobili]

Kome didn't win shit without a quality big man so no...

[21_Blessings]

Kobe took a shit in Duncan's mouth last decade. A title will this year will only widen the gap between the two.

[Muser]

The real question is, has Bynum's great playoff stats eclipsed Shaq's legacy?

[lefty]

Kobe took a shit in Duncan's mouth last decade. A title will this year will only widen the gap between the two.
He will be stuck at 4 titles like Timmy

:lmao

[lil'mo]

*post-gasol success

[21_Blessings]

More like Shaq will be stuck at 4 titles like Timmy :lmao while Kobe moves into the 5+ ring God tier

[lefty]

More like Shaq will be stuck at 4 titles like Timmy :lmao while Kobe moves into the 5+ ring God tier
Okay we'll see :lol

After all,





Anything is possibleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[galvatron3000]

Not a chance. Jordan was on his way and ain't nobody, and i mean Magic, Hakeem, Malone or Barkley could've stopped Jordan.

No, the Lakers doing that time just weren't that good nor that bad. They were in transition. As far as the Bulls before Jordan retired that Rockets teams probably would have beaten the Bulls. People forget Jordan retiring helped the Bulls bring in the players they brought in. The first 3 peat team was different from the 1994-1995 team let alone the 1996 team. The Knicks would have probably knocked the Bulls out or the Pacers without those players who were brought in and learned the system. I'm not convinced the first 3peat Bulls would have won 4 straight, Jordan or not.

[galvatron3000]

Kobe took a shit in Duncan's mouth last decade. A title will this year will only widen the gap between the two.

By doing what? I wish the Spurs could have brought in the same caliper of players to play with Duncan alone with Manu and Tony. Kobe has 3 star quality Big men, Bynum (when healthy), Gasol and Odom. Plus he has Artest or Ariza, a proven vet in Fisher. Spurs keep rotating players (of lower quality)to plug the whole of those who were traded, retired or opted to leave.

Spurs made a mistake of waiting 3 years too late to spend money and still brought the WRONG player in. When spending money for Rose they should have spent the money on Jackson and retained him but because of the Rose deal they didn't spend the money on Jackson...smh.

Anyway they both have 4 rings and Duncan hasn't lost a Finals appearance and for 10 years his teams have been in the hunt or winning it, not Kobe for 10 years. Where's this dump? :rolleyes

[TheManFromAcme]

And so the circle jerk never ends with this topic. Geez.
How many times has it been touched that all 'greats" were actually part of a tandem/whole unit? How many times? Damn dudes!

No one player in the history of this game does it all or has ever done it all or for that matter; will ever do it all. Son of gun man.:bang

whether it be tandems, duos, trios, the big 3, the big 4, whatever groupings you want to use, it all comes down to all pieces equaling a whole. I've never understood why this simple concept is hard to grasp.

Kobes great. Magic was great. Shaq was great. Duncan is great. Jordan was great and so on and so on.

Stick any of these great guys with scrubs, I mean genuine certifiable, barely making d-league scrubs, and you'll produce absolutely nothing. Oh, you'll get the occassional first round or with any luck, second round playoff run but that's about it.

No one player in this game is God like. They all needed someone else.

[JamStone]

By doing what? I wish the Spurs could have brought in the same caliper of players to play with Duncan alone with Manu and Tony. Kobe has 3 star quality Big men, Bynum (when healthy), Gasol and Odom. Plus he has Artest or Ariza, a proven vet in Fisher. Spurs keep rotating players (of lower quality)to plug the whole of those who were traded, retired or opted to leave.

Spurs made a mistake of waiting 3 years too late to spend money and still brought the WRONG player in. When spending money for Rose they should have spent the money on Jackson and retained him but because of the Rose deal they didn't spend the money on Jackson...smh.

Anyway they both have 4 rings and Duncan hasn't lost a Finals appearance and for 10 years his teams have been in the hunt or winning it, not Kobe for 10 years. Where's this dump? :rolleyes

Never liked when people argued this.

Making it to the NBA Finals and losing is better than not making it to the NBA Finals at all, right?

[Giuseppe]

No, it's not. Losing in the Finals equalizes you with the other 28 losers.

And that's just the way it is.

[jcrod]

Shaq won all 3 finals MVP awards and held Kobe's hand every step of the way ... last season Gasol was the team leader and without a doubt the only reason the Lakers won and everyone knows it ... this season its arguably a toss up between Gasol and Kobe because Gasol has been struggling a bit.

You're freaking nuts. Shaq doesn't win shit without kobe. It was Shaq 1.a and kobe 1.b. The only reason shag had the better numbers was he was feed the ball more for three quarters. Once the fourth came, kobe took over. Kobe was the single reason they would eliminate the Spurs. Robinson and TD would hold Shaq, but until Bowen the Spurs could not stop Kobe.

Gasol is not the leading man on the team, its Kobe's team and you're just hating. I can't stand the Lakers, but its stupid not to give Kobe his due.

[Giuseppe]

It's 15 NBA World Championships. And I ain't givin' up nary a one for money, marbles, nor chalk.

Savvy?

[jcrod]

While I agree that Magic beat better teams, beat a lot of championship teams, and I do believe Jordan didn't have as great a competition as in the 80s until those Lakers, Boston, Detroit teams got old, and while I'm as big a Michael Jordan hater as there is on these boards, I won't sell the guy short. Especially if you look at teams like the Stockton-Malone Jazz or even the one year Phoenix got there, or even the Blazers, Michael Jordan is the very reason they didn't win at least one championship. Jordan's competition would have been viewed differently had one or two of those teams at least one title. Jordan prevented that from happening.

Jordan >>>>> Magic

And I was a huge Magic fan growing up and admitted Jordan hater.



This and to be honest Jordan didn't have great players on the team besides pippen. Magic had stacked teams, he had a lot of help.

[21_Blessings]

This and to be honest Jordan didn't have great players on the team besides pippen. Magic had stacked teams, he had a lot of help.

Jordan had stacked teams. He had a lot of help. What the fuck are you talking about

[TheManFromAcme]

Jordan had stacked teams. He had a lot of help. What the fuck are you talking about

:wtf

No joke. It wasn't just Pippen

[MiamiHeat]

cue Laker fans raising rebounding specialist Rodman into Hall of Fame status

Luc Longley will turn into Bill Russel, the defensive minded shot blocker,

the white guys who could shoot 3's will turn into Reggie Millers

[Booharv]

Everyone remember this is the thread where BRHornets said Fisher was equal to Kobe as a Laker.

[Booharv]

sons honestly I think that Fisher deserves to be right up there and arguably ahead of Kobe's status as a Laker. dude has always been clutch and actually improves his teammates and makes smart shot selections. Kobe has actually made his teammates worse and has been extremely lucky over the years when many of his teammates have bailed him out when making selfish shot decisions. (most recently Gasol saving his ass in OKC with the tip in after that ridiculously selfish shot, and then Artest saving his embarrassing air ball the other night)

[Ghazi]

BR Hornet just has not mentally recovered from 121-63. It seemed to have turned him into a D level poster.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I'm not gonna call him the best Laker since half of his career was in Milwaukee, but IMO Kareem is the 2nd best player of all time due to how long he maintained a high level of play. At age 38 he was 1st all NBA center over the likes of Moses Malone and Hakeem Olajuwon. Kobe is probably 2nd to only Magic as a Laker if he wins it all this year, but still not as impressive as Kareem career wise.

[lefty]

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/listening_post/images/2008/07/01/kob_shaq.jpg

[MiamiHeat]

I'm not gonna call him the best Laker since half of his career was in Milwaukee, but IMO Kareem is the 2nd best player of all time due to how long he maintained a high level of play. At age 38 he was 1st all NBA center over the likes of Moses Malone and Hakeem Olajuwon. Kobe is probably 2nd to only Magic as a Laker if he wins it all this year, but still not as impressive as Kareem career wise.

now there's a quality viewpoint on this. :toast

[galvatron3000]

Never liked when people argued this.

Making it to the NBA Finals and losing is better than not making it to the NBA Finals at all, right?

My argument is when he went he didn't lose plus when he went Duncan lead his team there, in comparison to someone saying he has dumped on Duncan for 10 years. Sure it's better to go than not go but it's better too win period. I commend all the runner ups because it's difficult to get there let alone win but to say Duncan was dumped on by Kobe the last 10 years is just absurd. Not only has Duncan had a better 10 year span but he's older and on the decline. He did much more with the team's he was surrounded with than Kobe and Shaq carried those 3 peat Lakers team though Kobe was huge in them after Shaq left it was over, when Robinson left Dunca still held his own.

[JamStone]

I've read the thread and I know what you're responding to.

I pointed out very specifically your one comment about Duncan never losing in the Finals. Whatever argument you're responding to, that point is a weak one to me.

Unless Duncan has made the NBA Finals every single year in his career and never lost one, it is not more impressive to me that he hasn't lost any versus another player winning as many titles and losing two more in the Finals. It only tells me that the player got to the Finals more times. It's not more impressive losing in the first round or second round or conference finals than losing in the NBA Finals. It's just not. I think it's a weak thing to point out.

[MiamiHeat]

Unless Duncan has made the NBA Finals every single year in his career and never lost one, it is not more impressive to me that he hasn't lost any versus another player winning as many titles and losing two more in the Finals. It only tells me that the player got to the Finals more times. It's not more impressive losing in the first round or second round or conference finals than losing in the NBA Finals. It's just not. I think it's a weak thing to point out.

The player that got to the Finals had a good enough team to win it all and failed.

The player who failed to make the Finals did not have an adequate enough team around him.

Yes, it's worse to make it to the Finals and lose. You failed.

[cobbler]

Yes, it's worse to make it to the Finals and lose. You failed.

I'd be curious to hear Steve Nash's opinion on this.


LOL losing in opening rounds > losing in finals. :bang

[Agloco]

What do you think? And is he the greatest Laker of all of time?

I think he has surpassed Shaq, Kareem and West. What about Magic?

No way, that mantle will always belong to Worthy, IMO anyways. :toast

[BadOdor]

The player that got to the Finals had a good enough team to win it all and failed.

The player who failed to make the Finals did not have an adequate enough team around him.

Yes, it's worse to make it to the Finals and lose. You failed.

Jason kid made it to the finals and "failed". You think he'd rather have lost in the first round? lol heating pizza.

[MiamiHeat]

Jason kid made it to the finals and "failed". You think he'd rather have lost in the first round? lol heating pizza.

Losing in the first round, you can always write it off as another shitty year surrounded by an inadequate team. Having to overachieve, to carry your team through all of the playoffs just to REACH the finals, you quickly realize you didn't have the right team around you.

however,

Reaching and losing in the Finals, your team made it, they are good enough. Only one team left to beat, you can't help but question yourself for failing.

You think Jordan loses sleep for getting bounced in the first round by Boston in the 85 playoffs?

Now, do you think Jordan would lose sleep if he lost to Utah in 1998 Finals?

If you made the Finals, your team is good enough to win it all. Failure rests on the leaders of the team and it's a much harder thing to forget.

[BadOdor]

Losing in the first round, you can always write it off as another shitty year surrounded by an inadequate team. Having to overachieve, to carry your team through all of the playoffs just to REACH the finals, you quickly realize you didn't have the right team around you.

however,

Reaching and losing in the Finals, your team made it, they are good enough. Only one team left to beat, you can't help but question yourself for failing.

You think Jordan loses sleep for getting bounced in the first round by Boston in the 85 playoffs?

Now, do you think Jordan would lose sleep if he lost to Utah in 1998 Finals?

If you made the Finals, your team is good enough to win it all. Failure rests on the leaders of the team and it's a much harder thing to forget.

If you asked any player in the NBA, would he rather lose in the first round, or lose in the NBA finals, what do you think the answer would be? Jesus Christ you are really really stupid.

[Ghazi]

"If you made the Finals, your team is good enough to win it all"

'02/'03 Nets and '07 Cavs and a shitload of other teams throughout history beg to differ.

lol, lol... lol

[BadOdor]

"If you made the Finals, your team is good enough to win it all"

'02/'03 Nets and '07 Cavs and a shitload of other teams throughout history beg to differ.

lol, lol... lol

Ghazi, you might be a turban-wearing, pokemon playing, 250$ hand-job paying terrorist, but damn if I don't agree with you here!

[cobbler]

Losing in the first round, you can always write it off as another shitty year surrounded by an inadequate team.

This is the differece in people who actually play the game and compete and those who talk a big game from their armchair. A loss is a loss. You don't write them off. EVER!




You think Jordan loses sleep for getting bounced in the first round by Boston in the 85 playoffs?.

Absolutely. I would expect no less. Knowing his competitiveness, I would think that the norm. Wouldn't you?



Now, do you think Jordan would lose sleep if he lost to Utah in 1998 Finals?.

Absolutely. I would expect no less. Knowing his competitiveness, I would think that the norm. Wouldn't you?


If you made the Finals, your team is good enough to win it all. Failure rests on the leaders of the team and it's a much harder thing to forget.

Why do you assume this. Maybe your team was mediocre and you got them there with heroics and luck. Maybe injuries played a role. There are a multitude of reasons for getting to the finals and to suggest it is better to lose in the earlier rounds is just plain....

well...

you! :blah

[galvatron3000]

I've read the thread and I know what you're responding to.

I pointed out very specifically your one comment about Duncan never losing in the Finals. Whatever argument you're responding to, that point is a weak one to me.

Unless Duncan has made the NBA Finals every single year in his career and never lost one, it is not more impressive to me that he hasn't lost any versus another player winning as many titles and losing two more in the Finals. It only tells me that the player got to the Finals more times. It's not more impressive losing in the first round or second round or conference finals than losing in the NBA Finals. It's just not. I think it's a weak thing to point out.

How is never losing in the Finals a weak point, Jordan never lost in the Finals I guess that's a weak point too. I wasn't making the point you are suggesting and pointed that out. Again to say Kobe has dumped on Duncan for 10 years is crazy and stupid.

[elbamba]

Kobe was every bit as important as Shaq on the championship teams. LA had Eddie Jones during his best days and could not win a championship. Those LA teams were stacked with talent and couldn't win until Kobe grew up.

I would argue that shaq was the better and more important player on the 2000-2002 championship teams, however, Kobe was no Pippen. As much as I don't like him, it shows a great ignorance to limit his role to a sidekick.

Finally, there is no doubt that Kobe is LA's best player. Just like Tony and Manu complimented Tim in 05 and 07, without Tim the Spurs don't win those championships, not even close and the players would admit it themselves. Gasol is a key player, but he is not the leader or the best player, that is all Kobe.

[JamStone]

It's not the fact that Jordan never lost in the Finals. It's more impressive that Jordan went to 6 Finals. Dwyane Wade never lost in the Finals. Is that more impressive than Kobe winning 4 and losing 2?

I wasn't the one saying Kobe has dumped on Duncan for 10 years.

My argument is that you arguing against that, saying Duncan never losing in the Finals doesn't help prove your point, especially considering that both times Kobe and the Lakers lost in the Finals, the Lakers beat the Spurs along the way.

[JamStone]

Hakeem never lost in the NBA Finals. That's more impressive than Bill Russell winning 11 because Russell lost once in the NBA Finals.

Your logic.

[TheManFromAcme]

Kobe was every bit as important as Shaq on the championship teams. LA had Eddie Jones during his best days and could not win a championship. Those LA teams were stacked with talent and couldn't win until Kobe grew up.

I would argue that shaq was the better and more important player on the 2000-2002 championship teams, however, Kobe was no Pippen. As much as I don't like him, it shows a great ignorance to limit his role to a sidekick.

Finally, there is no doubt that Kobe is LA's best player. Just like Tony and Manu complimented Tim in 05 and 07, without Tim the Spurs don't win those championships, not even close and the players would admit it themselves. Gasol is a key player, but he is not the leader or the best player, that is all Kobe.

:tu

[SevenX]

Hakeem never lost in the NBA Finals. That's more impressive than Bill Russell winning 11 because Russell lost once in the NBA Finals.

Your logic.

:lmao:lmao Faggot Miami Heat...

Get owned.

I bet he also faults Kobe missing the playoffs in 2005... but using his logic, his team wasn't good enough to get that far. And what formula do you use to say "this player had a team capable of winning a championship?" What a dumb fuck.

[21_Blessings]

cue Laker fans raising rebounding specialist Rodman into Hall of Fame status


"Rebounding wins championships" - Pat Riley

You're bad at this Miami. Why so insecure?

[TDMVPDPOY]

has shaq ever tasted a mans ass, cause kobe has him beat there

[21_Blessings]

has shaq ever tasted a mans ass, cause kobe has him beat there

Go ahead ask Timmy to tell you how Kobe's ass taste. You'll find what you're looking for.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Kobe isn't even at Mark Madsen levels yet.

[galvatron3000]

Hakeem never lost in the NBA Finals. That's more impressive than Bill Russell winning 11 because Russell lost once in the NBA Finals.

Your logic.

That was never my logic, I was making a specific comparison in the initial response which because you continue to miss the point I made we keep coming back to this logic you say I'm using. I've already stated that it is more impressive to be in more Finals from a team perspective but from an individual perspective I made the comparison that when Kobe and when Duncan went Duncan LEAD his team unlike Kobe so to say that Kobe has dumped on Duncan the last 10 years is STUPID because there is no proof anyone can put together to support that.

I also know you didn't make the initial statement but you are not understanding my point because you want me to say the very thing you find unworthy which I do as well and which is why I wasn't making the point you continue to say I made. I never did. I made a specific comparison using a familiar analogy that we both don't find credible but in this instance I find it valid in proper context.

If I initial said what you suggest by now after several attempts to clarify it should be fair and obvious what I have said if not fine I'm moving on. My logic

[TheMACHINE]

That was never my logic, I was making a specific comparison in the initial response which because you continue to miss the point I made we keep coming back to this logic you say I'm using. I've already stated that it is more impressive to be in more Finals from a team perspective but from an individual perspective I made the comparison that when Kobe and when Duncan went Duncan LEAD his team unlike Kobe so to say that Kobe has dumped on Duncan the last 10 years is STUPID because there is no proof anyone can put together to support that.

I also know you didn't make the initial statement but you are not understanding my point because you want me to say the very thing you find unworthy which I do as well and which is why I wasn't making the point you continue to say I made. I never did. I made a specific comparison using a familiar analogy that we both don't find credible but in this instance I find it valid in proper context.

If I initial said what you suggest by now after several attempts to clarify it should be fair and obvious what I have said if not fine I'm moving on. My logic

but Kobe has been dumping on Duncan's team even when Kobe was second fiddle.

Ask other spurs fans....they'll say Kobe was the one who raped them in the playoffs.

[bus driver]

shaq-yes
magic-no


but Kobe has been dumping on Duncan's team even when Kobe was second fiddle.

Ask other spurs fans....they'll say Kobe was the one who raped them in the playoffs.

i know remember that year when the lakers played the spurs and kobe was crying so hard from his raping?......oh wait..... i mean fisher?....oh wait....never mind

[galvatron3000]

but Kobe has been dumping on Duncan's team even when Kobe was second fiddle.

Ask other spurs fans....they'll say Kobe was the one who raped them in the playoffs.


I'm a Spurs fan, you can ask me even though we weren't talking team but individual players I can safely say the Lakers are up on playoffs victories on the Spurs by winning in 2001, 2002, 2004 and 2008. Spurs beat the Lakers in 1999 and 2003

[21_Blessings]

Lakers are up on playoffs victories on the Spurs by winning in 2001, 2002, 2004 and 2008.

That's called getting dumped on.

Team of the Decade = Lakers

Player of the Decade = Kobe

Failing to repeat 4 times in such a short time frame is pretty pathetic and a clear indicator of a bitch-made team with no heart.

[galvatron3000]

That's called getting dumped on.

Team of the Decade = Lakers

Player of the Decade = Kobe

Failing to repeat 4 times in such a short time frame is pretty pathetic and a clear indicator of a bitch-made team with no heart.

lol

[TheManFromAcme]

I'm a Spurs fan, you can ask me even though we weren't talking team but individual players I can safely say the Lakers are up on playoffs victories on the Spurs by winning in 2001, 2002, 2004 and 2008. Spurs beat the Lakers in 1999 and 2003


Hell, throw in 80's ownage and it becomes evident just how dominating the Lakers have been over the Spurs.

Fortunately, we are just talking about '99 through '08