How much is Amare worth without Nash?

[pauls931]

I wonder if this thought comes across GM's minds that much. I think most suns fans assume he'll walk deep inside, but you have think... Did people see what happened to Marion? Not able to create his own shots, went from AS to a decent sub.

Amare in the post can create offense, but half his offense comes from pick and rolls and kickouts from Nash.

I also wonder if this crosses his mind that much, that he needs to go to a team with a passing point guard. With that in mind I can't think of many. Chris Paul, perhaps Deron Wiliams?

[Muser]

Marion was a product of D'antoni's gimmick system. Amar'e has proven he can play in a decent system this year.

Except he can't rebound for shit.

[MaNu4Tres]

How much is Gasol worth without Kobe and Bynum/ Odom front-court?


Now all of a sudden he's the best big man in the game.

[Goran Dragic]

Amare won rookie of the year and averaged 20+ points in his 2nd season with Marbury/Barbosa at PG, and he didn't seem to need Nash at all against OKC this year. To say Amare needs a passing PG is ludicrous, as is the comparison to Shawn "bitch made" Marion. If Amare wants to win a championship, it'd be moronic to go to a PG oriented team when they never win championships.

[Goran Dragic]

Amare is no longer a great pick and roll scorer, IMO his pick and roll scoring actually got worse this year. Post AS break, Amare was getting all of his points off isos and put backs. Against LA they were getting no production out of the pick and roll, Amare was doing well on offense when isoed against Gasol.

[Lukor]

Riddle me this Sunsfan: How can a guy with as much athleticism as Amare be such a medicore defender and rebounder? I just don't get it, he has all the tools.

[Goran Dragic]

Riddle me this Sunsfan: How can a guy with as much athleticism as Amare be such a medicore defender and rebounder? I just don't get it, he has all the tools.


He's lazy, he's surrounded by teammates who don't play D, and for the better part of his career he had a coach who told him defense doesn't matter.

[Goran Dragic]

He's lazy, he's surrounded by teammates who don't play D, and for the better part of his career he had a coach who told him defense doesn't matter.


As good as Gentry has been, he still hasn't held players accountable enough. When the Suns have a shitty night defensively, Gentry should be holding a 3 hour practice the next day. When Hill, Frye and Amare act like high school players, you need to treat them like high school players.

[Goran Dragic]

He's had the jumper for awhile now. That's the one thing you develop well under D'antoni: your jumper. Everything else (defense, rebounding, off the dribble ability when you're not a PG) goes to shit.

[Kamnik]

I think Nash is not the main thing that might devalue him elsewhere...

-he was in a contract year and had bad rebounding numbers and even worse numbers (in more minutes) in the playoffs... UNACCEPTABLE for a team that aspires to win a championship

-he is a bad defender with below average size at PF

-he has bad knees and had some tough luck with his eyes

-his game is based on his sick athleticism which will only get worse each year (see: KG)

-he is a below average passer for a bigman



If I would be a GM I wouldn't offer him more than 10mil a year, but as this is the NBA where players like Rashard Lewis and Gilbert Arenas can get HUGE contracts; meaning: Amare can too.

[Kamnik]

Gentry is way too nice.

Him beeing nice has as many good effects on the team as it has bad ones.

I am pretty sure that Dragic wouldn't evolve very well under a strict coach like Popovich because his confidence would be shattered...

[JamStone]

Amare has proven he can be a very good scoring big man in the league even without Nash. Nash definitely helps, but Amare would still score with a crap point guard.

If Amare played in the even more wide open offense in Golden State, Amare could easily put up:

35 PPG
4.5 RPG
0.33 BPG
-0.75 APG
50% FG

[Giuseppe]

I am pretty sure that Dragic wouldn't evolve very well under a strict coach like Popovich because his confidence would be shattered...

True, twixt Porter over a year ago & The Machine the other night Dragic was in the high cotton.

[Goran Dragic]

Dragic is an example of someone who doesn't need the coach to be a hard ass. A good coach knows how to push players' buttons, Gentry is just too nice which works really well with certain players but works terribly with players like Barbosa.

By no means do I want Gentry fired, but I'm hoping he adjusts his coaching style with the added experience.

[Ghazi]

Mle, imo

[JamStone]

Barbosa doesn't have a problem with coaching or motivation. I think Barbosa's troubles are directly related to being around a guy like Amare. Sometimes being constantly around stupid makes you more stupid. Jason Richardson has developed some Amare stupidity. It's amazing Nash hasn't. Stupidity by osmosis. Suns should be careful with guys like Dudley and Dragic and make sure they don't hang around Amare too much if he stays, or at least wear surgical masks when they are with him.

[Goran Dragic]

Barbosa doesn't have a problem with coaching or motivation. I think Barbosa's troubles are directly related to being around a guy like Amare. Sometimes being constantly around stupid makes you more stupid. Jason Richardson has developed some Amare stupidity. It's amazing Nash hasn't. Stupidity by osmosis. Suns should be careful with guys like Dudley and Dragic and make sure they don't hang around Amare too much if he stays, or at least wear surgical masks when they are with him.


Bullshit. Barbosa is plenty stupid on his own. Amare has nothing to do with the fact Barbosa has done nothing to improve his game since 2007, that's all on him. He's simply gotten too complacent and comfortable in Phoenix.

Stupidity by osmosis can actually be pinned on Barbosa. Since he came back from injury, Dragic, Amundson and Hill have developed a lot of stupid habits that are similar to what Barbosa does.

[Mel_13]

Amare has proven he can be a very good scoring big man in the league even without Nash. Nash definitely helps, but Amare would still score with a crap point guard.

If Amare played in the even more wide open offense in Golden State, Amare could easily put up:

35 PPG
4.5 RPG
0.33 BPG
-0.75 APG
50% FG

:lol

[DPG21920]

Amare is a talented, but limited player. You don't pay max money to those type of players. He is worth the same with or without Nash, which is less than max.

[Goran Dragic]

People really are harping on this "he's not worth the max" thing. No one ever said he was worth the max, but in today's NBA, he's undeniably a player who will get a max contract. You can make the case that no one other than Lebron James and Kobe Bryant are "worth the max", that doesn't mean they're the only players who get the max.

[Mel_13]

People really are harping on this "he's not worth the max" thing. No one ever said he was worth the max, but in today's NBA, he's undeniably a player who will get a max contract. You can make the case that no one other than Lebron James and Kobe Bryant are "worth the max", that doesn't mean they're the only players who get the max.

True.

I think the point is that the team that pays the max to Amare will be harming the franchise more than helping it.

[Goran Dragic]

True.

I think the point is that the team that pays the max to Amare will be harming the franchise more than helping it.


Depends. If the team giving him the contract knows the player he is and can successfully build a championship with him as one of the main pieces, then they are probably fine with overpaying him knowing that's just life in the NBA. The Lakers are probably overpaying Odom, Gasol and Bynum right now, but they know it's better to be overpaying those players then having them on another team.

On the flip side, if he's given a max contract by a team that expects him to be a franchise player and put a team on his back, then yeah, that's more harm than good.

[DPG21920]

People really are harping on this "he's not worth the max" thing. No one ever said he was worth the max, but in today's NBA, he's undeniably a player who will get a max contract. You can make the case that no one other than Lebron James and Kobe Bryant are "worth the max", that doesn't mean they're the only players who get the max.

I have agreed with that point overall and have argued there are tiers of players. Obviously, there is a "max money" tier of player. Now within that tier you will get varying return on investment. A guy like Lebron or Kobe will obviously be the best. Then a guy like Bosh will be at the bottom of that.

I just disagree that Amare is even in that tier. I think he is on the outside looking in.

[Goran Dragic]

Bosh is no better than Amare. If Bosh was in that tier, he woulda been able to make the playoffs this year, his supporting cast wasn't that bad.

[Mel_13]

Depends. If the team giving him the contract knows the player he is and can successfully build a championship with him as one of the main pieces, then they are probably fine with overpaying him knowing that's just life in the NBA. The Lakers are probably overpaying Odom, Gasol and Bynum right now, but they know it's better to be overpaying those players then having them on another team.

On the flip side, if he's given a max contract by a team that expects him to be a franchise player and put a team on his back, then yeah, that's more harm than good.

It's difficult to come up with situations where you can add Amare for the max and have him serve as a complimentary piece on a contender. Not impossible, but not easy.

Much more likely that the team that gives him that max contract will expect him to function as a franchise player. He won't live up to that expectation.

[DPG21920]

Yes, he is.

[Ghazi]

LeBron and Whistle are in a tier of their own. If the max is only reserved for the top tier of players they're the only ones worthy.

[Mel_13]

LeBron and Whistle are in a tier of their own. If the max is only reserved for the top tier of players they're the only ones worthy.
Uh, Kobe?

[DPG21920]

I don't think it is a huge difference, but I think Bosh is an overall better player.

[DPG21920]

LeBron and Whistle are in a tier of their own. If the max is only reserved for the top tier of players they're the only ones worthy.

No one is saying that. Catch up.

[Goran Dragic]

Yes, he is.


His defense is just as soft as Amare's if not softer, and there's a point every season where his pussy flares up. Other than rebounding (and FYI Bosh has a career average of .5 more RPG than Amare, negligible difference) Amare is just as good as or better than Bosh.

[DPG21920]

Also, I am not saying it can't be argued. I also think Bosh will be the same problem as Amare with regards to paying him and expecting him to be the main guy.

[DPG21920]

Lets put it this way, if you listen to all the GM"s talking, they all want Bosh over Amare. That right there tells you their value.

[Mel_13]

His defense is just as soft as Amare's if not softer, and there's a point every season where his pussy flares up. Other than rebounding (and FYI Bosh has a career average of .5 more RPG than Amare, negligible difference) Amare is just as good as or better than Bosh.

Neither one will ever be the best player on a championship team.

[Goran Dragic]

Lets put it this way, if you listen to all the GM"s talking, they all want Bosh over Amare. That right there tells you their value.


You can't place either one in a clear-cut tier over the other, way too close in ability. There is nothing Bosh gives a team that Amare doesn't give. Amare is a slightly better offensive player, they both equally suck at defense, and Bosh is a slightly better rebounder. Maybe the GMs find Bosh more intriguing because they know he's not returning to the Raptors or because of Amare's knee, but Bosh isn't better than Amare. If he was, he'd be able to lead his team to a better record than 40-42.

[Mel_13]

You can't place either one in a clear-cut tier over the other, way too close in ability. There is nothing Bosh gives a team that Amare doesn't give. Amare is a slightly better offensive player, they both equally suck at defense, and Bosh is a slightly better rebounder. Maybe the GMs find Bosh more intriguing because they know he's not returning to the Raptors or because of Amare's knee, but Bosh isn't better than Amare. If he was, he'd be able to lead his team to a better record than 40-42.

That alone is a good reason to avoid a six year investment in Amare.

[DPG21920]

That is faulty logic. And even though Bosh is not a good defender, he is better than Amare there as well. The market will tell you who is better. There is a reason people have Bosh higher than Amare. There is a reason the Raptors want Bosh back and the Suns have been trying to trade Amare and are hesitant to sign him to the max.

People also know Amare is not returning to the Suns. I would say that situation is about the same.

If Bosh told Toronto he wanted the max and he would stay, they would sign him today.

[Goran Dragic]

Neither one will ever be the best player on a championship team.


I don't disagree. But to say Bosh is better than Amare to the point where he's in a tier Amare isn't in is laughable.



Same amount of AS appearances
Bosh has 0 All NBA 1st team awards, Amare has 1
Bosh has 1 All NBA 2nd team award, Amare has 3
neither one has ever sniffed a birth on an all NBA defensive team
Amare almost always wins the matchup with Bosh, for all the Bosh and Howard knob slobbing and Amare hate, neither one of them ever noticeably outplays Amare.

[DPG21920]

So TP is better than Rose by a damn long shot if you want to use that logic. That is not what I heard some people saying though. Only when the argument suits them.

I said Amare is not in the tier. I said Bosh is at the bottom. I did not say Amare is MLE and Bosh is clearly a max player.

[Mel_13]

I don't disagree. But to say Bosh is better than Amare to the point where he's in a tier Amare isn't in is laughable.


I agree with that.

Bosh is a much safer investment primarily because of the health factor. Amare also has a penchant for doing and saying stupid things. That also will factor into a team's decision to tie up so much money for such a long period of time.

[Goran Dragic]

That is faulty logic. And even though Bosh is not a good defender, he is better than Amare there as well. The market will tell you who is better. There is a reason people have Bosh higher than Amare. There is a reason the Raptors want Bosh back and the Suns have been trying to trade Amare and are hesitant to sign him to the max.

People also know Amare is not returning to the Suns. I would say that situation is about the same.

If Bosh told Toronto he wanted the max and he would stay, they would sign him today.

Toronto was the worst defensive team in the NBA this year, Bosh is a shit defender. Bryan Colangelo's career in a nutshell is overpaying players just so the team can stay marginally competitive, plus chances are he's out as GM if Bosh leaves. If Bosh left and Amare went to Toronto saying he'd sign for the max, they'd hop on that ASAP. It's simply two franchises run differently. Meanwhile, Toronto's fanbase hates Bosh and I've seen several Raptors message boards where their fans say they would trade Bosh for Amare any day of the week.

Not sure where you're getting the idea Amare isn't returning to the Suns. Reportedly his agent and Kerr are about to start renegotiating an extension, there is probably a 40% chance he's returning to the Suns, while Bosh quit on Toronto and can't wait to pack his bags, there's a 0% chance he's going back to Toronto. He's every bit as much of an egocentric prick as Amare is, and way more of a quitter too.

I'll say it again, if Bosh was anymore worthy of a max extension than Amare, he would have been able to lead his team to the playoffs in the Leastern conference.

[DPG21920]

So you think Amare would have done better with the Raptors than Bosh if you just swap them out?

I get Amare not returning to the Suns from the same place you are getting Bosh not returning to the Raptors, although Bosh has never come out and said "I have probably played my last game as a Raptor" like Amare has with the Suns.

[Goran Dragic]

So TP is better than Rose by a damn long shot if you want to use that logic. That is not what I heard some people saying though. Only when the argument suits them.

I said Amare is not in the tier. I said Bosh is at the bottom. I did not say Amare is MLE and Bosh is clearly a max player.

Rose put his team on his back and led them to the playoffs. Bosh quit on his team and they missed the playoffs. I don't get how they are comparable.

[DPG21920]

Rose put his team on his back and led them to the playoffs. Bosh quit on his team and they missed the playoffs. I don't get how they are comparable.

Ummmmmm, Rose won 1 more game in the same conference than the Raptors. For a guy who trying to argue that you can't separate Bosh and Amare bc they are too close, you are sure weighting heavily a one game difference.

Also :lmao at saying Bosh quit on his team. There you go again throwing wild accusations around.

[Goran Dragic]

So you think Amare would have done better with the Raptors than Bosh if you just swap them out?

I get Amare not returning to the Suns from the same place you are getting Bosh not returning to the Raptors, although Bosh has never come out and said "I have probably played my last game as a Raptor" like Amare has with the Suns.

Amare never made a twitter status about which team he should sign with. That's great taking things out of context when the only reason Amare said that were rampant trade rumors he had no control over. It's not like he said that for no reason. Last I checked, that wasn't his last game as a Sun.

And yes, I think Amare would have done better with the Raptors. They would have won a few more games that they lost because Bosh missed 12 games due to a bitch injury, and they would have snuk in as the 8 seed.

[Goran Dragic]

Ummmmmm, Rose won 1 more game in the same conference than the Raptors. For a guy who trying to argue that you can't separate Bosh and Amare bc they are too close, you are sure weighting heavily a one game difference.

Also :lmao at saying Bosh quit on his team. There you go again throwing wild accusations around.


The 5 game losing streak Toronto went on at the end of the season is how Chicago ended up stealing their playoff spot. It certainly didn't help Bosh basically missed 4 of those 5 games.

[DPG21920]

What does that have to do with you saying "Rose put his team on his back.." & "Bosh sucks because he can't lead his team to better than 40 wins.." when Rose's team won only 1 more damn game?

Also, this is classic ST logic:

1)Any team that does not win a title is a choker.

2)Any player that misses a game is a quitter.

3)Any team that loses a playoff game has no heart.

Of course it hurt Toronto that Bosh was out. He was injured. Point is, I said Amare vs Bosh is arguable, but I think Bosh is better than Amare all things considered.

Bosh said he did not give Toronto a list. So you cannot point to that. There is no doubt Amare said this was his last game as a Sun, and it was not just one time he said that.

[Pero]

There is no doubt Amare said this was his last game as a Sun, and it was not just one time he said that.

Well can you blame the guy for that? He was in trade rumours all the time, he expected he was going to be traded. At that point it was almost the equivalent to saying the sky is blue. It's not like he said it's his last game because he demanded a trade or didn't want to play for the Suns or something that negative as you're trying to make it look.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Well can you blame the guy for that? He was in trade rumours all the time, he expected he was going to be traded. At that point it was almost the equivalent to saying the sky is blue. It's not like he said it's his last game because he demanded a trade or didn't want to play for the Suns or something that negative as you're trying to make it look.


He's taking what Amare said out of context knowing that it's ridiculous.

[mingus]

How much is Gasol worth without Kobe and Bynum/ Odom front-court?


Now all of a sudden he's the best big man in the game.

yeah, the major declines of KG, Shaq, Duncan, and the injury proneness of Yao have nothing to do with it.

[Giuseppe]

yeah, the major declines of KG

That was only before Gasol cited it. He promised not to decline anymore and to reverse said decline. See and all it took was a red ass from a Spain.

[mingus]

That was only before Gasol cited it. He promised not to decline anymore and to reverse said decline. See and all it took was a red ass from a Spain.

if he said that obviously he's in denial.

[DPG21920]

He's taking what Amare said out of context knowing that it's ridiculous.

:lol What? How is it out of context? You said Bosh was 100% gone and used that to frame an argument. I said Amare is likely gone as well, so that doesn't really matter.

You say "where are you getting this from". I said, I am basing my opinion on Amare's comments that he has played his last game, where are you getting Bosh is gone from?

You say, Bosh gave Toronto a list. I said, Bosh himself denied doing that, but I have proof that for whatever reason, Amare thinks he is gone.

That was the argument. I told you where I was basing my opinion off of. You are basing yours off of something Bosh flat out denied. Not to mention, I said they want Bosh back. I don't know if the Suns do. Hence the Amare is likely gone comment.