Phil Jackson: "Kevin McHale gave the Celtics Garnett"

[D-Wade #3]

"Kevin McHale gave them Kevin Garnett," cracked Jackson, speaking of McHale when he was VP of basketball operations in Minnesota. "I mean, why not? Geez. That's somebody calling the kettle black."

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-simers-20100604,0,2697091.column?page=2

:lol

[BadOdor]

lol grey spur fan.

[Pero]

Ah so, he agrees the Laker trade for Gasol was collusion? :lol

[cd98]

"Name heard today as a possible target for Paul Allen in his hunt for the next Blazers GM: Jerry West"

From Jason Quick, beat writer for Portland.

We can expect to see LaMarcus Aldridge or Brandon Roy traded to the Lakers for a bunch of Laker scrubs as part of a "salary dump" a la Gasol.

[tdunk21]

"Kevin McHale gave them Kevin Garnett," cracked Jackson, speaking of McHale when he was VP of basketball operations in Minnesota. "I mean, why not? Geez. That's somebody calling the kettle black."

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-simers-20100604,0,2697091.column?page=2

:lol

phil jackson, a very good coach but runs his mouth like a teenager.....degrading for a coach of his status....

[pauls931]

Is Phil slowly turning into Shaq?

[Cane]

Is Phil slowly turning into Shaq?

Except Shaq's been losing weight. I doubt Phil would've ran on the court for the last second time-out like Doc did last night.

[4>0rings]

Oh it's on now mother fucker!

[Fabbs]

what's funny is that article doesn't mention the Gasol trade at all. Jackson was pissed that McHale said that the Celtics have the advantage in coaching this series.

it's pretty obvious that he feels guilty about the collusion involved in the Gasol trade, however. an unprovoked mention of the Garnett trade over something completely different is strong evidence for that.

Then again, that's the Laker/Lakerfan way. When someone talks shit, deflect by saying something completely off topic.

Example -

SpursTalk Poster: haha Lakers lose game 2

Lakerfan: haha Spurs/Mavs/Suns/etc suck ass!

SpursTalk Poster: nobody cares about that, we care about the Lakers losing.

Lakerfan: Your mom cares when I put my dick in her ass!
well said

[Bob Lanier]

I hate Phil Jackson as much as the next guy, but the OP clearly took this out of context. He's saying the Garnett trade was as much collusion as the Gasol trade, and he's right.

[monosylab1k]

He's saying the Garnett trade was as much collusion as the Gasol trade, and he's right.

now we have the dumb opinion.

[kromediablo]

This is BS, Garnett to the celtics for practically nothing, Gasol to the Lakers for practically nothing...Hmmm the nba should instill a rule in that a GM can not trade their players to the GM's former teams. Kevin McHale, Jerry West..lol

[monosylab1k]

last I checked, Al Jefferson wasn't a complete scrub, some soft Euro's fat brother, or the biggest bust in NBA history.

To say Boston got Garnett for "practically nothing" is stupid. The Garnett trade was somewhat lopsided, but nowhere near as ridiculous as the Gasol trade.

[21_Blessings]

KG to Celts was pretty much the definition of collusion. Mchale turns down a superior Laker package and sends KG to his beantown buddy and former team.

Just imagine the negotiations for a second.

[21_Blessings]

last I checked, Al Jefferson wasn't a complete scrub, some soft Euro's fat brother, or the biggest bust in NBA history.

Al Jefferson is one of the worst defenders in the league, literally. He was on the worst team in the league when he was traded. Hasn't even won 30 games since trade and still doesn't play defense. His only accomplishments have been tearing his ACL and a DUI.

[monosylab1k]

Al Jefferson is one of the worst defenders in the league, literally. He was on the worst team in the league when he was traded. Hasn't even won 30 games since trade and still doesn't play defense. His only accomplishments have been tearing his ACL and a DUI.

Still better than Kwame Brown. You lose.

[21_Blessings]

Kwame was salary dump. You lose.

Paying Al Jefferson a 40 million extension would have ensured Boston went nowhere.

The fact that Rondo wasn't in the deal and Telfair (addition by subtraction) was is further proof of the collusion.

[monosylab1k]

Kwame was salary dump. You lose.

:lol The strategy of every NBA franchise is to salary dump their best player but then demand fair value of the #2 guy on the team. You lose.

[mystargtr34]

At least the Wolves got a proven young big-man prospect in Al Jefferson - plus some lottery picks.

Not a bunch of trash and a mid second round stashed drafted pick who just happened to turn out pretty good.

[21_Blessings]

Cap space = future all-star. Randolph + Gasol and 2 1st rounder >>>>>>>>>>> Jefferson. You lost a long time ago.

It doesn't matter. Mchale turned down the better package from LA. End result = Lakers dynasty. Boston 1 and done.

[monosylab1k]

:lmao taking a chance with Zach Randolph and Marc Gasol losing weight doesn't justify the Gasol deal one bit. At the time of the trade Marc Gasol was Pau's fat little brother that nobody wanted. Zach Randolph was a move of desperation that panned out because of dumb shit luck.

All that financial flexibility and Rudy Gay won't be re-signed :lmao You lose.

[Tmac&Luther]

LOL Al Jefferson is >>>>> than anything Memphis got for Gasol. Phil Jackson needs to SHUT THE FUCK UP. :sleep

[Mel_13]

It doesn't matter. Mchale turned down the better package from LA.

Care to share the details of this supposed superior offer?

[monosylab1k]

Care to share the details of this supposed superior offer?

That would require 21 Palins to stop talking out of his ass. In other words don't hold your breath.

[Chieflion]

That would require 21 Palins to stop talking out of his ass. In other words don't hold your breath.

The superior trade was Kwame Brown + Javaris Crittenton + Marc Gasol + late draft picks. LOL 21_Cuckcolds.

[Tmac&Luther]

Al Jefferson is one of the worst defenders in the league, literally. He was on the worst team in the league when he was traded. Hasn't even won 30 games since trade and still doesn't play defense. His only accomplishments have been tearing his ACL and a DUI.

LOL, Jefferson is a 20 & 10 guy....would you care to tell us how many of those type of players currently play in the league :rolleyes

Phil is a jackass

[SenorSpur]

Oh, no he didn't!

[4>0rings]

21_Pakis epic fail

[pauls931]

Al Jefferson is one of the worst defenders in the league, literally. He was on the worst team in the league when he was traded. Hasn't even won 30 games since trade and still doesn't play defense. His only accomplishments have been tearing his ACL and a DUI.

When was the last time anyone heard about Kwame Brown? Myself when he was booed in LA and traded shortly thereafter.

[Bob Lanier]

LOL, Jefferson is a 20 & 10 guy
Antoine Walker was a 20&10 player once. Shawn Marion, David Lee, Antawn Jamison, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Antonio McDyess, Zach Randolph, Carlos Boozer...

In any case, at the time he was a 16&11 player who played bad defense. Would you offer Luis Scola for a slightly-past-his-prime Garnett and call it fair?

[LnGrrrR]

Kwame was salary dump. You lose.

Paying Al Jefferson a 40 million extension would have ensured Boston went nowhere.

The fact that Rondo wasn't in the deal and Telfair (addition by subtraction) was is further proof of the collusion.

Yeah, I mean, when the Lakers got Gasol they had to give up some good young talent...

Oh wait, they didn't.

[LnGrrrR]

In any case, at the time he was a 16&11 player who played bad defense. Would you offer Luis Scola for a slightly-past-his-prime Garnett and call it fair?

Fair? Probably not. But at least we gave up five players, one of whom had promise (Al Jefferson) and one ok role player (Gerald Green). At least as fair as the Gasol trade. I don't see how Laker fans can bitch about the Celtics trade, but I'll allow the fans of the 28 other teams.

[daslicer]

I thought the celtic's trade wasn't really a rip off because Al Jefferson was on the verge of being a 20-10 big man at that time. Say what you want about hm averaging 20-10 that he is on a bad team blah blah the bottom line is 20-10 big guys don't go on trees they are actually hard to get in this league these days and the wolves were able to get one. On top of that Al was on pace to being an all-star up until he suffered his knee injuries. You can't say that Kwame,Crittenton, and even Marc Gasol will ever come close to playing on an all-star level. I have seen Marc play and he's very solid player but he's never going to be an all-star player I just don't see it happening. Basically the Lakers gave up 2 scrubs, a solid player in Marc for an all-star big man who is now a top 3 big in this league that to me is a huge rip off.

[monosylab1k]

Antoine Walker was a 20&10 player once. Shawn Marion, David Lee, Antawn Jamison, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Antonio McDyess, Zach Randolph, Carlos Boozer...

Every player you listed there is still about 10x better than Kwame fucking Brown.

[HarlemHeat37]

Al Jefferson was putting up around 20-10 on ridiculous efficiency post All-Star break that year..he was getting a lot of hype as an emerging player..not to say it was completely fair, but Minny received a very good young player out of it..

As Mel_13 wrote in a previous thread, Minny received Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, Ratliff's huge expiring contract(which was their Kwame Brown of the deal, which is ridiculously funny), Telfair, Gerald Green(was also seen as a good prospect at the time, there was still hope for him), 2 1st round picks, one of them which was used to acquire their PG of the future in Johnny Flynn, and the other to acquire a decent rotation prospect in Wayne Ellington..

Another annoying thing is that Boston had to actually miss the playoffs twice and USE their assets that they acquired in the lottery to acquire Garnett and Allen..the Lakers missed the playoffs only once, and they got to keep their lottery pick(Bynum), and they still acquired Gasol..if they at least had to give up Bynum in the deal, they wouldn't have such a massive size advantage over the rest of the league, thus evening out the West(Lakers would still be the favorites, but it wouldn't be nearly the same)..

Also, regarding Marc Gasol..people like to hype it up and whatever, it's obviously BS, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt..if you look back at forums and whatever at the time though, Crittenton was actually receiving a lot more hype than Gasol was, he was supposed to be the main prospect that was received in the trade..a fucking 19th pick that didn't have that high of a ceiling..

[cd98]

Imagine how good that Memphis team would be right now with Pau Gasol instead of Marc Gasol.

[monosylab1k]

Imagine how good that Memphis team would be right now with Pau Gasol instead of Marc Gasol.

But hey! Now they have the cap space to go out in the market and not re-sign Rudy Gay and not get any other big name free agents. So all that financial flexibility from the Gasol trade pans out!

[cd98]

The T'Wolves weren't making the playoffs when they traded Garnett (lottery 2 years prior) and they're not making the playoffs with Jefferson.

At some point the team's front office, and not its best player, deserves the blame.

[crc21209]

Al Jefferson is one of the worst defenders in the league, literally. He was on the worst team in the league when he was traded. Hasn't even won 30 games since trade and still doesn't play defense. His only accomplishments have been tearing his ACL and a DUI.

Besides Pierce, Al Jefferson was the best player on the Celtics at the time...

[ShoogarBear]

lol "great talent" Javaris Crittenton

http://thesportshernia.typepad.com/blog/images/2007/04/18/jerry_west_2.jpg

[024]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[ezau]

Put it this way, If the Celtics pulled off a collusion by acquiring KG, Al Jefferson should never have been traded to the T'wolves.

[cobbler]

Besides Pierce, Al Jefferson was the best player on the Celtics at the time...

And how did those Celtics fare?

24-58 and the 29th out of 3 teams.

So he was the 2nd best player on the 2nd worse team. :lol

[cobbler]

Put it this way, If the Celtics pulled off a collusion by acquiring KG, Al Jefferson should never have been traded to the T'wolves.

Salaries have to match up... collusion or not.

[v2freak]

Lakers gave up almost nothing for Gasol.

Celtics gave up good player in Al Jefferson but that was a lopsided deal anyway you paint it

Spurs also got Richard Jefferson for cheap which shouldn't be ignored, but Jefferson is not Garnett or Gasol by a longshot. Good player, I still like him. Spurs gave up Kurt Thomas and Bruce Bowen for him.

[cobbler]

Lakers gave up almost nothing for Gasol.

Celtics gave up good player in Al Jefferson but that was a lopsided deal anyway you paint it

Spurs also got Richard Jefferson for cheap which shouldn't be ignored, but Jefferson is not Garnett or Gasol by a longshot. Good player, I still like him. Spurs gave up Kurt Thomas and Bruce Bowen for him.

Nothing?

Kwame's huge expiring contract (very valuable in today's NBA) which became Zach who put up numbers this year to equal Pau's
Crittenton
2008 1st round pick
2010 1st round pick
2010 2nd round pick
Marc Gasol (with 2010 numbers very close to Pau's)


Memphis is happy with the trade and what it enabled them to do. Unfortunately, Zach was a bonehead off the court and that will cost them but the money they gained from dumping Kwame allowed them to pick up Zach who had Pau like numbers this year. Marc also had Pau like numbers. Some of us who can see talent beyond a stat sheet saw his potential. That others didn't does not mean it wasn't there or the deal was of lesser value. No wonder the grizz wanted him included and LA balked until the last min and made him part of the trade. LA is happy with the trade obviously. So it's a win win for the 2 teams involved. That others don't like it, call it collusion, or ignorantly claim the Lakers gave up nothing, is irrelevant and nothing but sour grapes!

[Muser]

Jackson just being the bitch that he is.

[TheRealCB]

Nothing?

Kwame's huge expiring contract (very valuable in today's NBA) which became Zach who put up numbers this year to equal Pau's
Crittenton
2008 1st round pick
2010 1st round pick
2010 2nd round pick
Marc Gasol (with 2010 numbers very close to Pau's)


Memphis is happy with the trade and what it enabled them to do. Unfortunately, Zach was a bonehead off the court and that will cost them but the money they gained from dumping Kwame allowed them to pick up Zach who had Pau like numbers this year. Marc also had Pau like numbers. Some of us who can see talent beyond a stat sheet saw his potential. That others didn't does not mean it wasn't there or the deal was of lesser value. No wonder the grizz wanted him included and LA balked until the last min and made him part of the trade. LA is happy with the trade obviously. So it's a win win for the 2 teams involved. That others don't like it, call it collusion, or ignorantly claim the Lakers gave up nothing, is irrelevant and nothing but sour grapes!

Yeah Memphis really stole your lunch with that trade :depressed

[pauls931]

So Memphis got Kwame and a bunch of late first round picks? Seriously though, is kwame still playing in the nba? The boston trade was bad enough, but the gasol one is a laugher. Both trades essentially disrupted the nba by causing other teams to make rash moves and to prevent other teams from emerging.

edit: had to look him up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwame_Brown

There you are!!!

http://www.nba.com/pistons/roster/ buried in Detroit.

[Dr House]

Are you kidding me??? ARe people really gonna try and insult the greatness that is the 15 time NBA champion Lakers of Los Angeles lead by the GOAT Kobe "Jellybean" Bryant???

That Laker trade was anything but collusion!!!!!! I mean if anything they got the better end of the deal!!!!! They have all the cap space in the world now, a superstar in Marc Gasol, they traded away Kwame Brown but he definitely gives the Detroit Pistons size to anchor that championship defense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not to mention they got Jarvaris Crittenton who was supposed to revolutionize the PG position for years!!!! This thread just screams butthurt because your team is not as great as the 15 time NBA Champion Lakers of Los Angeles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:: lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::l obt2:

[pauls931]

Without Gasol, the GOAT couldn't even get by SSOL offense. LA got lucky and found a team hurting and will to sacrifice to save money. And oddly enough willing to make a deal without seeing if they can get better elsewhere...

[Xevious]

Both trades are suspect. And they just happened to take place before/during the same season, leading the both of them returning to the finals. A year after the Spurs locked down the NBA's future poster boy in four games. I don't have numbers to back it up, but I'm sure the television ratings for the 2007 finals sucked major ass. The NBA made sure that shit wasn't happening again.

[Mel_13]

Care to share the details of this supposed superior offer?



That would require 21 Palins to stop talking out of his ass. In other words don't hold your breath.

:lol

Damn, you were right.

[21_Blessings]

Ahaha, how fucking stupid are you Mel?

Bynum/Odom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Al Jefferson.

I'm glade Mchale and Ainge colluded. Anyone that thinks they didn't is a naive little girl.

KG was considered one of if not the best PF in the league at the time of the trade. Gasol was hated by the Memphis fanbase and lead his team to a top lottery pick the year was shipped.

End of the day Mchale turns down the superior Laker package, helps the Celtics while fucking Minny. Memphis shopped Gasol for almost two years and ends up with a deal that actually benefited their rebuilding.

That is why Memphis is in a much better situation than Minny currently.

[Mel_13]

Bynum/Odom

Care to provide any proof that a deal centered around Odom/Bynum was ever on the table?

[BUMP]

Care to provide any proof that a deal centered around Odom/Bynum was ever on the table?


That would require 21 Palins to stop talking out of his ass. In other words don't hold your breath.

And I don't even see why he's having such a tough time admitting it, it's not even a big deal. It got the Lakers rings. But then again Lakerfans are the most insecure fanbase in all of sports so i shouldn't be surprised

[dickface]

End of the day Mchale turns down the superior Laker package

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[dickface]

21 Faggots is talking out of his ass again. There was never a Bynum/Odom for Garnett offer.

It was a three way trade that would have sent Garnett to LA, Bynum/Odom to Indiana, and Jermaine O'Neal to Minnesota.

Garnett for an old ass, always injured Jermaine O'Neal? No thanks. Garnett for Jefferson is a superior offer.

[urunobili]

Marc Gasol >>>>>>>>>>> Al Jefferson

[Greg Oden]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

lmao 3 invisible dicks

[v2freak]

Nothing?

Kwame's huge expiring contract (very valuable in today's NBA) which became Zach who put up numbers this year to equal Pau's
Crittenton
2008 1st round pick
2010 1st round pick
2010 2nd round pick
Marc Gasol (with 2010 numbers very close to Pau's)


Memphis is happy with the trade and what it enabled them to do. Unfortunately, Zach was a bonehead off the court and that will cost them but the money they gained from dumping Kwame allowed them to pick up Zach who had Pau like numbers this year. Marc also had Pau like numbers. Some of us who can see talent beyond a stat sheet saw his potential. That others didn't does not mean it wasn't there or the deal was of lesser value. No wonder the grizz wanted him included and LA balked until the last min and made him part of the trade. LA is happy with the trade obviously. So it's a win win for the 2 teams involved. That others don't like it, call it collusion, or ignorantly claim the Lakers gave up nothing, is irrelevant and nothing but sour grapes!

You forgot Aaron McKie.

So the Lakers gave the Grizzlies cap relief/a #1 pick overall, investment for the future via a crapload of draft picks and Pau Gasol's near-equal? Good euphemisms.

The Lakers traded a player who has done very little in his NBA career but does represent cap relief, a bunch of picks that are unlikely to make a huge impact due to the Lakers' success, a couple unknowns and Marc Gasol who was unproven at the time. When Gasol left the Grizzlies, he held 12 franchise records. I'll be interested to see if Marc Gasol does that.

[monosylab1k]

Marc Gasol who was unproven at the time.

He was more than unproven. He was a longshot of a longshot. He was just Pau's fat little brother. NOBODY thought he'd be a decent NBA player. It was like trading Dominique Wilkins for Gerald Wilkins except add 100 extra pounds onto Gerald.

[redzero]

Some people need to stop crying about the Gasol trade. It's over and done with, and no amount of whining will send Gasol back to Memphis.

[monosylab1k]

Some people need to stop crying about the Gasol trade. It's over and done with, and no amount of whining will send Gasol back to Memphis.

That's what you think.

[v2freak]

He was more than unproven. He was a longshot of a longshot. He was just Pau's fat little brother. NOBODY thought he'd be a decent NBA player. It was like trading Dominique Wilkins for Gerald Wilkins except add 100 extra pounds onto Gerald.

Very true. Marc Gasol was taken with the 48th pick and while other excellent players like Ginobili have been taken later, it kinda shows the Lakers were not expecting a tremendous payoff. But the Grizzlies SURE ARE LUCKY that they got him cause he puts up similar numbers to his brother?

[cobbler]

Without Gasol, the GOAT couldn't even get by SSOL offense. LA got lucky and found a team hurting and will to sacrifice to save money. And oddly enough willing to make a deal without seeing if they can get better elsewhere...

Are you saying the highest expiring contract at the time doesn't have value? Are you saying late first round picks dont have value? The $$$ have to be comparable to make the trade. They didn't trade to get Kwame to be an impact player. The traded for his expiring contract and dumped him to Detroit and were abel the pick up Zach with the money. Seems like a pretty shrewd move to me and it upgraded their team dramatically.

And you should research before you spew the same hogwash many others before you have. Pau was well known to be on the trading block for over a year at the time. Just 3 weeks prior to the trade the Grizz turned down an offer from the Bulls. If the GM's from your teams didn't persue the possibility when it was well known that the Owner wanted Pau out and he was available then shame on them.

That your particular GM panicked and made a kneejerk trade for the Big Craptus is his fault and blaming the Lakers and pulling the collusion card is nothing more than admitting they dropped the ball and got one upped by the better organization.

[monosylab1k]

Are you saying late first round picks dont have value?

Please. Don't even try that. Late first round picks have so little value it's not even funny. NBA teams sell their late first round picks for less than Ghazi pays for a handjob.

[cobbler]

Very true. Marc Gasol was taken with the 48th pick and while other excellent players like Ginobili have been taken later, it kinda shows the Lakers were not expecting a tremendous payoff. But the Grizzlies SURE ARE LUCKY that they got him cause he puts up similar numbers to his brother?

Not true. The Lakers and many others saw the potential in Marc. The balked for almost a week trying not to include him in the deal. Memphis insisted. For God's sake, do a little research. He was the MVP of his league and was showing lots of promise also playing on the Spanish National team.

That none of you idiots saw Marc's potential means absolutely nothing other than you are shitty at evaluatiing talent. And look.... low and behold... Marc is making a nice little impact. In fact, his numbers are very comparable to Pau's this year... the supposed best big in the league. Go figure...

[monosylab1k]

Not true. The Lakers and many others saw the potential in Marc. The balked for almost a week trying not to include him in the deal. Memphis insisted. For God's sake, do a little research.

:lmao bullshit.

Show me one article written AT THE TIME OF THE TRADE that gushed over the tremendous value and "potential" of Marc Gasol. Every article I've seen either mentions him briefly or not at all. He was a throw-in of extremely little value at the time of the trade, there's not a fucking thing you can do that disproves that.

[HarlemHeat37]

LOL, please, nobody was hyping Marc Gasol at the time..if you look back(I was a regular on RealGM at the time, so I saw the opinions of everybody from every team, not just Spurs fans, so there wasn't a bias against LA), Crittenton, a 19th pick with little hype, was actually hyped A LOT more than Marc Gasol was when this trade happened..Gasol started getting inflated once Laker fans started defending the collusion..

Some posts from a Laker forum(just by doing a quick search):


Unbelievable. Kupchak should be GM of the year. I would’ve happily included Odom with Kwame to get Pau. Once Bynum comes back Odom becomes the #5 scoring option which will suit him perfectly. In fact, I think this move makes Lamar all the more expendable since the foundation of this team for the forseeable future is

Gasol will be such a great fit with this team. I am absolutely giddy. To replace our worst player with an all-star…WOW. Sorry to see Javaris and his potential go, but we are now stacked for a run at the title for the next five years.


This is such a freaking steal. Best of luck to Memphis after Kwame’s contract expires this summer!


YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i’m sorry Crit that you had to go, i was looking forward to seeing you play in the P & G, in other news..

YESSSSSSSSSSS YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS YESSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!


35. It is also believed that the Lakers would need to arrange a sign-and-trade for Aaron McKie, who is not currently playing in NBA, to make the salary cap math work for the deal.

– espn.com

aaron mckie is suppose to solve that little problem.

yippeee!



Even if Jerry West wasn’t directly involved you have to wonder if he worked behind the scenes to help get this done and exact some revenge for the Ainge-McHale conspiracy.

Lakers-Celtics finals here we come baby!


Kwame = blows
but still provided solid interior D and moments of unintentional comedy (if not taken too seriously – which is how he rather be taken)

Critt = Potential niceness (with a capital p)
I’m in the camp (albeit small one) that thinks he will actually be a better PG than Farmar in the future. I mean, we saw flashes of brilliance from him in Limited playing time (albeit a lot of gar-baj time) – he is going to be Nice.

Aaron McKie – important player on the 76s 2001 NBA Finals run
But that was 2001. Thanks for the contract.

Marc Gasol – who?

:lol


Those are from the "forum blue and gold" through the first 30 or so comments, I just took out a few, but the 400+ comments about this trade were pretty much the same as the posts I quoted above..I didn't cherry pick too, there was literally 1 person that mentioned missing Marc Gasol after over 400 comments, and his comment was about wanting to see the brothers play together..there were plenty of Critt comments..most of the comments were about the Grizzlies getting absolutely robbed, and this is from a Lakers forum LOL..

The quotes I can bring up from general NBA forums would be even worse..everybody at the time recognized this was a massive robbery, and the only "potential" player that received any hype was Javaris Crittenton, which speaks volumes on how bad this trade was..

I don't believe the NBA is rigged or anything, but this trade was undoubtedly shady, especially when you see what the Celtics had to go through to get their trades..

[cobbler]

Please. Don't even try that. Late first round picks have so little value it's not even funny. NBA teams sell their late first round picks for less than Ghazi pays for a handjob.

2nd round picks:

Monta Ellis
Michael Redd
CarlosBoozer
Gilbet Arenas
Mehmet Okur
Rashard Lewis
Cuttino Mobley
Steven Jackson
Nick Van Exel
Cedric Ceballos
Rony Kukoc
Dino Radja
Anthony Mason
Sarunas Marciulionis
Daniel Gibson
Leon Powe
Ronny Turiaf
Luke Walton
Kyle Korver
Eric Snow
PJ Brown
Cliff Robinson
Sherman Douglas
Steve kerr


How about late 1st round:

Aaron Brooks
Kendrick Perkins
David Lee
Gerald Wallace
Andrei Kirilenko
Tayshaun Prince
Kevin Martin
Josh Howard
Tony Parker
Nate Robinson
Boris Diaw
Delonte West
Rudy Fernandez
Morris Peterson
Samuel Dalembert
Leandro Barbosa
Courtney Lee
Jarrett Jack
Kenny Thomas
John Salmons
Jordan Farmar
George Hill
Linas Kleiza
Beno Udrih


:lmao @ no value!

[cobbler]

LOL, please, nobody was hyping Marc Gasol at the time..if you look back(I was a regular on RealGM at the time, so I saw the opinions of everybody from every team, not just Spurs fans, so there wasn't a bias against LA), Crittenton, a 19th pick with little hype, was actually hyped A LOT more than Marc Gasol was when this trade happened..Gasol started getting inflated once Laker fans started defending the collusion..

Some posts from a Laker forum(just by doing a quick search):



:lol


Those are from the "forum blue and gold"..I didn't cherry pick too, there was literally 1 person that mentioned missing Marc Gasol after over 400 comments, and his comment was about wanting to see the brothers play together..there were plenty of Critt comments..most of the comments were about the Grizzlies getting absolutely robbed, and this is from a Lakers forum..

The quotes I can bring up from general NBA forums would be even worse..

So bringing up quotes from people with no foresight or talent evaluation skills proves what? That they are as big a moron as you?

OK.

[HarlemHeat37]

OK Gobbler, you keep hyping that 50th pick, or whatever he was..

If you're telling me the Grizzlies knew Marc Gasol, the 50th pick in the draft with little hype at the time, would be nearly this good, then you're basically telling me that the Grizzlies have a great front office, which has been proven to be false many times..go to a Grizzlies forum and see how much their fans complain about their horrible front office..

If he was as hyped as you say he was, then Laker fans would have at least acknowledged his loss when the trade happened, which they clearly didn't if you look at the majority of the comments that were made at the time..look at Scola and Splitter here, Spurs fans talk about them all the time and acknowledge their value..I know Spurs fans are much more knowledgeable than Laker fans, but still..

[pauls931]

2nd round picks:

Monta Ellis
Michael Redd
CarlosBoozer
Gilbet Arenas
Mehmet Okur
Rashard Lewis
Cuttino Mobley
Steven Jackson
Nick Van Exel
Cedric Ceballos
Rony Kukoc
Dino Radja
Anthony Mason
Sarunas Marciulionis
Daniel Gibson
Leon Powe
Ronny Turiaf
Luke Walton
Kyle Korver
Eric Snow
PJ Brown
Cliff Robinson
Sherman Douglas
Steve kerr


How about late 1st round:

Aaron Brooks
Kendrick Perkins
David Lee
Gerald Wallace
Andrei Kirilenko
Tayshaun Prince
Kevin Martin
Josh Howard
Tony Parker
Nate Robinson
Boris Diaw
Delonte West
Rudy Fernandez
Morris Peterson
Samuel Dalembert
Leandro Barbosa
Courtney Lee
Jarrett Jack
Kenny Thomas
John Salmons
Jordan Farmar
George Hill
Linas Kleiza
Beno Udrih


:lmao @ no value!

Crap picks... And how many players higher than those are there that amounted to nothing? Thousands?

[MiamiHeat]

Salaries have to match up... collusion or not.

which is funny, because the Gasol collusion trade did not match up salary.

Lakers cheated, CHEATED, by grabbing a retired player to a contract to make the salaries match.

[cobbler]

:lmao bullshit.

Show me one article written AT THE TIME OF THE TRADE that gushed over the tremendous value and "potential" of Marc Gasol. Every article I've seen either mentions him briefly or not at all. He was a throw-in of extremely little value at the time of the trade, there's not a fucking thing you can do that disproves that.

[Mitch Kupchak:] Of course we traded Marc Gasol when we got Pau, his brother, and I think Marc is going to be a good player. European players are different, so he's going to have to prove it this year, but I think he has a chance to play in this league for years to come.

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/nba-news-and-rumors/articles/77167-memphis-grizzlies-wanted-sun-yue


“I have no buyer’s remorse,” Heisley said. “Listen, I can’t tell you how many people would tell me, wherever I went in Memphis, ‘Get rid of Gasol. …Trade Gasol.’

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slu...yhoo&type=lgns


Many people thought Marc was just a throw-in in that trade, but Memphis had targeted him all along," said Herb Rudoy, Marc's agent. "If Marc wasn't included, Memphis never would have done it."

http://www.pe.com/sports/breakout/st...2.969b466.html

Several sources close to the process insist West played no part, and Heisley swears, “Jerry didn’t know about the trade until after it was done.”

Heisley didn’t offer up those names, but insisted, “Chicago wouldn’t offer us any of their good, core players,” he said. “Our people told me that we weren’t able to get equal trade value for Gasol and that we needed to do a deal that would give us cap space and draft picks. It was no secret in the league that we were considering offers for him, but the Lakers were the one team that stepped up.”

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slu...yhoo&type=lgns

[LnGrrrR]

2nd round picks:

Monta Ellis
Michael Redd
CarlosBoozer
Gilbet Arenas
Mehmet Okur
Rashard Lewis
Cuttino Mobley
Steven Jackson
Nick Van Exel
Cedric Ceballos
Rony Kukoc
Dino Radja
Anthony Mason
Sarunas Marciulionis
Daniel Gibson
Leon Powe
Ronny Turiaf
Luke Walton
Kyle Korver
Eric Snow
PJ Brown
Cliff Robinson
Sherman Douglas
Steve kerr


How about late 1st round:

Aaron Brooks
Kendrick Perkins
David Lee
Gerald Wallace
Andrei Kirilenko
Tayshaun Prince
Kevin Martin
Josh Howard
Tony Parker
Nate Robinson
Boris Diaw
Delonte West
Rudy Fernandez
Morris Peterson
Samuel Dalembert
Leandro Barbosa
Courtney Lee
Jarrett Jack
Kenny Thomas
John Salmons
Jordan Farmar
George Hill
Linas Kleiza
Beno Udrih


:lmao @ no value!

Really?

How about posting all the late round picks who DIDN'T pan out...

[cobbler]

OK Gobbler, you keep hyping that 50th pick, or whatever he was..

If you're telling me the Grizzlies knew Marc Gasol, the 50th pick in the draft with little hype at the time, would be nearly this good, then you're basically telling me that the Grizzlies have a great front office, which has been proven to be false many times..go to a Grizzlies forum and see how much their fans complain about their horrible front office..

If he was as hyped as you say he was, then Laker fans would have at least acknowledged his loss when the trade happened, which they clearly didn't if you look at the majority of the comments that were made at the time..look at Scola and Splitter here, Spurs fans talk about them all the time and acknowledge their value..I know Spurs fans are much more knowledgeable than Laker fans, but still..

Many of us knowlegable Laker fans did acknowledge the loss of Marc. Just because we are in the minority doesn't mean it didn't happen or that he didnt have potential. I'm sorry you and others could not see it. I guess now 3 years later we know. I was right... and as usual... you were wrong. Go figure.

:blah

[MiamiHeat]

blah blah blah

Several sources close to the process insist West played no part, and Heisley swears, “Jerry didn’t know about the trade until after it was done.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00031/Bill_Clinton__Lewins_31996a.jpg

i did not have sexual relations with that woman

[cobbler]

Really?

How about posting all the late round picks who DIDN'T pan out...

That wasn't the piont. The comment was made that late first round picks have no value. I just showed you a lot of value in late first and even late 2nd round picks. It's obviously a crap shoot all the way to the #1 pick. There are players that have busted that were lottery picks and there are stars that came out of the late rounds.

The comment that late first round picks have no value is ridiculous at best and I showed it's just not the case.

[DPG21920]

Many of us knowlegable Laker fans did acknowledge the loss of Marc. Just because we are in the minority doesn't mean it didn't happen or that he didnt have potential. I'm sorry you and others could not see it. I guess now 3 years later we know. I was right... and as usual... you were wrong. Go figure.

:blah

:lmao

[monosylab1k]

2nd round picks:

Monta Ellis
Michael Redd
CarlosBoozer
Gilbet Arenas
Mehmet Okur
Rashard Lewis
Cuttino Mobley
Steven Jackson
Nick Van Exel
Cedric Ceballos
Rony Kukoc
Dino Radja
Anthony Mason
Sarunas Marciulionis
Daniel Gibson
Leon Powe
Ronny Turiaf
Luke Walton
Kyle Korver
Eric Snow
PJ Brown
Cliff Robinson
Sherman Douglas
Steve kerr


How about late 1st round:

Aaron Brooks
Kendrick Perkins
David Lee
Gerald Wallace
Andrei Kirilenko
Tayshaun Prince
Kevin Martin
Josh Howard
Tony Parker
Nate Robinson
Boris Diaw
Delonte West
Rudy Fernandez
Morris Peterson
Samuel Dalembert
Leandro Barbosa
Courtney Lee
Jarrett Jack
Kenny Thomas
John Salmons
Jordan Farmar
George Hill
Linas Kleiza
Beno Udrih


:lmao @ no value!

:lmao you are so fucking retarded. This has nothing to do with picking a good player with a late 1st round pick.

this is about the VALUE of a late first round pick. On draft day, late 1sts have VERY LITTLE VALUE, as evidenced by the fact that you can simply BUY A LATE FIRST ROUND PICK FROM ANOTHER TEAM. YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO TRADE ANYTHING.

If you can't understand a late first rounder has very little trade value, then you really don't know shit about how the NBA works.

[monosylab1k]

The comment that late first round picks have no value is ridiculous at best and I showed it's just not the case.

so just because Tom Brady is a 6th round pick, that means NFL teams should covet their 6th rounders because they're getting a guaranteed Hall Of Famer with it?

The actual value of a late pick is incredibly small....what you do with it is SOMETHING ELSE COMPLETELY.

[monosylab1k]

I wonder how many of those guys on that list were the either sold/traded for peanuts to the team they would up playing for as a rookie. I'd say probably half or more.

[LnGrrrR]

That wasn't the piont. The comment was made that late first round picks have no value. I just showed you a lot of value in late first and even late 2nd round picks. It's obviously a crap shoot all the way to the #1 pick. There are players that have busted that were lottery picks and there are stars that came out of the late rounds.

The comment that late first round picks have no value is ridiculous at best and I showed it's just not the case.

What kind of logic is that? Obviously you have to factor in the percentages, and the percentage of "good" players becomes much better towards the top of the draft. You make it sound like pick 50 has as much of a chance in the average draft to become a superstar as the first pick overall.

Using this logic, the "value" of a lottery ticket is in the millions, because I can show you tons of million dollar lottery winners.

[monosylab1k]

in 2009, the Lakers traded a late 1st round pick to the Knicks for a future 2nd rounder and money.

why the fuck would they do that? cobbler has established that late first round picks have so much value!

[v2freak]

[Mitch Kupchak:] Of course we traded Marc Gasol when we got Pau, his brother, and I think Marc is going to be a good player. European players are different, so he's going to have to prove it this year, but I think he has a chance to play in this league for years to come.

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/nba-news-and-rumors/articles/77167-memphis-grizzlies-wanted-sun-yue


“I have no buyer’s remorse,” Heisley said. “Listen, I can’t tell you how many people would tell me, wherever I went in Memphis, ‘Get rid of Gasol. …Trade Gasol.’

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slu...yhoo&type=lgns


Many people thought Marc was just a throw-in in that trade, but Memphis had targeted him all along," said Herb Rudoy, Marc's agent. "If Marc wasn't included, Memphis never would have done it."

http://www.pe.com/sports/breakout/st...2.969b466.html

Several sources close to the process insist West played no part, and Heisley swears, “Jerry didn’t know about the trade until after it was done.”

Heisley didn’t offer up those names, but insisted, “Chicago wouldn’t offer us any of their good, core players,” he said. “Our people told me that we weren’t able to get equal trade value for Gasol and that we needed to do a deal that would give us cap space and draft picks. It was no secret in the league that we were considering offers for him, but the Lakers were the one team that stepped up.”

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slu...yhoo&type=lgns

2 things:

Of course Kupchak isn't going to say "yeah we raped those Grizzlies real good. We gave them a bunch of nothing players including Gasol". He is going to build up Gasol to make the trade look even.

Also, of course the Grizzlies are going to rationalize their decision. It's called cognitive dissonance.

[HarlemHeat37]

2 things:

Of course Kupchak isn't going to say "yeah we raped those Grizzlies real good. We gave them a bunch of nothing players including Gasol". He is going to build up Gasol to make the trade look even.

Also, of course the Grizzlies are going to rationalize their decision. It's called cognitive dissonance.

:rollin


in 2009, the Lakers traded a late 1st round pick to the Knicks for a future 2nd rounder and money.

why the fuck would they do that? cobbler has established that late first round picks have so much value!

:lol

[monosylab1k]

2 things:

Of course Kupchak isn't going to say "yeah we raped those Grizzlies real good. We gave them a bunch of nothing players including Gasol". He is going to build up Gasol to make the trade look even.

Also, of course the Grizzlies are going to rationalize their decision. It's called cognitive dissonance.

:lmao that dipshit thinks quotes from everybody involved in the collusion will justify it. and of course Marc Gasol's fucking agent is going to talk up his client.

Find a source that wasn't directly involved in the dealings, Lakerfan.

[LnGrrrR]

:lmao that dipshit thinks quotes from everybody involved in the collusion will justify it. and of course Marc Gasol's fucking agent is going to talk up his client.

Find a source that wasn't directly involved in the dealings, Lakerfan.

Guys, I just found out that Nixon didn't do anything illegal! :wow Check out this quote!


Nixon - When the President does it, that means that it's not illegal.

I can't believe he was almost impeached!

[cobbler]

in 2009, the Lakers traded a late 1st round pick to the Knicks for a future 2nd rounder and money.

why the fuck would they do that? cobbler has established that late first round picks have so much value!

Hmmmmmmmm..... they traded a pick for another picj and money. So am I to assume now that money has no value as well? :lol

[MiamiHeat]

also, for the 2nd time

i'd like to remind everyone the Lakers cheated and circumvented NBA rules by signing a retired player AARON MCKIE, who was an assistant coach at the time I THINK, to make the salaries match.

[monosylab1k]

Hmmmmmmmm..... they traded a pick for another picj and money. So am I to assume now that money has no value as well? :lol

Why sell it for money when you can get a guaranteed Hall Of Famer?

[v2freak]

You are to assume money has more value than a 1st round pick and much more value than a 2nd round pick.

[monosylab1k]

Shit, if all it takes to get something as valuable as a late first rounder is money, then I'm REALLY PISSED OFF that Mark Cuban didn't just trade money to Seattle for the rights to draft Kevin Durant. Just throw enough money at them and it's yours!

[v2freak]

:lol

[LnGrrrR]

Shit, if all it takes to get something as valuable as a late first rounder is money, then I'm REALLY PISSED OFF that Mark Cuban didn't just trade money to Seattle for the rights to draft Kevin Durant. Just throw enough money at them and it's yours!

Well, Cobbler said that all the draft picks are a crapshoot anyways. You could probably save money by trading your low pick for their high pick, and maybe throwing in an extra $100. I mean, $100 is cash right? And cash=value, so I don't see why they'd turn it down.

[HarlemHeat37]

LOL..gobble, gobble, gobble..

[cobbler]

Bottom line...

All you bozos can cry collusion all you want. You can cry the trade was completely lopsided all you want. You can deny that late first round picks have value all you want.

Facts are until proven otherwise. No collusion ever took place. If you have facts to prove otherewise show them. Otherwise STFU about collusion.

The trade, though seemingly lopsided at the time has turned out to be great for both parties. Other teams and fans bitching about it is only sour grapes that they didn't make the deal first. Some people saw the potential of Marc and other did not. There is no shame in not seeing it but there certainly is in calling out others because they did. There are numerous articles out now that have revisited the trade and conclude that it wasn't the great robbery that was once whined about.

So really, what we're looking at here is a Gasol-for-Gasol deal, which all of a sudden doesn't seem that lopsided from the standpoint of the Grizzlies.

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/02/01/two-years-after-gasol-trade-grizzlies-doing-just-fine/


"They gave up a great player but it helped them extend the franchise's success into the future," Popovich said. "It's shown that they've done a good job. Whatever they were thinking a couple of iterations ahead at the time has paid off for them."

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/01/30/popovich-retreats-in-war-against-grizzlies/


The once-maligned trade that moved Pau Gasol from Memphis to the Los Angeles Lakers two years ago this month looks a lot different these days.

What initially was greeted with great cynicism, laughter and disgust -- a lopsided transaction in the Lakers' favor -- is looking more like a win-win for both teams.

Cap space and flexibility are no longer punch lines in Memphis. The Griz, given time to connect the dots of the deal, have stockpiled useful players.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/feb/23/laugh-no-more/


etc... etc... etc...

[cobbler]

also, for the 2nd time

i'd like to remind everyone the Lakers cheated and circumvented NBA rules by signing a retired player AARON MCKIE, who was an assistant coach at the time I THINK, to make the salaries match.

DID NOT break any rules. Show me the rule they broke. It was a loophole and the Lakers used it. There has been a change to not allow it anymore. Not unlike the Jamison trade with the big Z loophole. I am sure that will be changes as well, but the fact is the Cavs broke no rule.

Wrong again.

[Mel_13]

Facts are until proven otherwise. No collusion ever took place.

The whole idea of collusion is to hide the facts.

The real fact is that the collusion theories will never die, but it is amusing to watch Laker fans try so hard to disprove them.

You would think that having a perennial NBA Finalist to root for would be enough for a fan.

[DPG21920]

The whole idea of collusion is to hide the facts.

The real fact is that the collusion theories will never die, but it is amusing to watch Laker fans try so hard to disprove them.

You would think that having a perennial NBA Finalist to root for would be enough for a fan.

This is Cobbler though. He has to defend any and all things Lakers. Even when it means saying/doing some foolish things. That is just his thing. Like an itch you just have to scratch.

[cobbler]

LOL..gobble, gobble, gobble..

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq115/cobblerphoto/pooping-turkey3.jpg

[peteee]

Stern gave Lakers Pau Gasol which evens it up. At least the Celtics lost some good talents in this trade including AJ, Delonte, Telfair, etc.... That 7 for 1 deal wasn't as much of a robbery as the Pau Gasol trade IMHO in which Lakers lost nothing but dipshits.

[cobbler]

:lmao that dipshit thinks quotes from everybody involved in the collusion will justify it. and of course Marc Gasol's fucking agent is going to talk up his client.

Find a source that wasn't directly involved in the dealings, Lakerfan.

I don't need to. How about you find a source that proves it happend? You are making the accusations... prove it or STFU already.

[DPG21920]

Cobbler, do you believe in God?

[midnightpulp]

Lakers colluded, West the mastermind. Even an idiot can see that.

[cobbler]

Cobbler, do you believe in God?

Nope

[DPG21920]

Nope

Prove he does not exist or you are wrong.

[Mel_13]

Prove he does not exist or you are wrong.

:lol

Well played.

[LnGrrrR]

I don't think collusion is involved. I just thought it was a lopsided deal, moreso than the Boston/KG trade (though that was still lopsided).

[cobbler]

This is Cobbler though. He has to defend any and all things Lakers. Even when it means saying/doing some foolish things. That is just his thing. Like an itch you just have to scratch.

Of course I defend my Lakers. Isn't that what being a fan is about?

And yes, having a perennial NBA Finalist to root for is awesome. I love being a Laker fan.

I don't see the collusion and don't believe it's the case. I asked JW to his face what he thought of all the collusion reports. His reply... "Utter nonsense"
So I guess I will take the word of one of the most respected men in all of sports over your BS conjecture anyday.

Sure I say some foolish things. Don't we all? Doesn't detract from the fact that you cannot prove collusion, that quality and "valuable" players are chosen in the latter 1st round, or that the gasol trade evened out and wasn't nearly the robbery as first reported.

I read something awhile ago that said (if i remember the number correctly) that 6-8% of the picks from #22-30 become stars in the NBA. Maybe that is no value to you guys but it is to me. It you think it's foolish to value late 1st and 2nd round picks then so be it. I disagree.

[Chieflion]

Of course I defend my Lakers. Isn't that what being a fan is about?

And yes, having a perennial NBA Finalist to root for is awesome. I love being a Laker fan.

I don't see the collusion and don't believe it's the case. I asked JW to his face what he thought of all the collusion reports. His reply... "Utter nonsense"
So I guess I will take the word of one of the most respected men in all of sports over your BS conjecture anyday.

Sure I say some foolish things. Don't we all? Doesn't detract from the fact that you cannot prove collusion, that quality and "valuable" players are chosen in the latter 1st round, or that the gasol trade evened out and wasn't nearly the robbery as first reported.

I read something awhile ago that said (if i remember the number correctly) that 6-8% of the picks from #22-30 become stars in the NBA. Maybe that is no value to you guys but it is to me. It you think it's foolish to value late 1st and 2nd round picks then so be it. I disagree.

No need to twist other people's words. They said late 1st round picks and 2nd round picks have little value, not no value, around the league. The Gasol trade essentially made the Lakers a powerhouse again without giving the Grizzlies any instant value. By making the Lakers a powerhouse, the 1st round picks become 28th to 30th picks and have lesser value than early 2nd rounders from the 31st to 35th range.

[cobbler]

Prove he does not exist or you are wrong.

I am agnostic.

A person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

I'm not out there making accusations that he does or doesn't. If I mad an accusation that god did not exist then you can tell me to prove it. You asked if I "believe" in god. My answer was no.

So.... you prove that he does exist if you are claming he does.

Nice try!

[LnGrrrR]

I don't see the collusion and don't believe it's the case. I asked JW to his face what he thought of all the collusion reports. His reply... "Utter nonsense"
So I guess I will take the word of one of the most respected men in all of sports over your BS conjecture anyday.



Here's the thing... if he WAS involved, would he admit it? Again, I don't think collusion happened, just pointing out a (huge) flaw in your argument.


Doesn't detract from the fact that you cannot prove collusion, that quality and "valuable" players are chosen in the latter 1st round, or that the gasol trade evened out and wasn't nearly the robbery as first reported.


Just beacuse some quality players are chosen in the late rounds, does not mean that pick is half or even a quarter as valuable as lottery picks. Is there some "value" there? Sure. But the question is, did the Grizzlies gain value OVERALL? Most people would argue that the value of Pau Gasol at the time of the trade was much greater than cap space, some low first rnd picks, and Marc Gasol.

As well, you can't really look at something after the fact and say, "Well it worked out ok" to justify it. If I drive home drunk out of my mind, but manage not to hit anyone, does that mean that I didn't do anything wrong?

[cobbler]

No need to twist other people's words. They said late 1st round picks and 2nd round picks have little value, not no value, around the league. The Gasol trade essentially made the Lakers a powerhouse again without giving the Grizzlies any instant value. By making the Lakers a powerhouse, the 1st round picks become 28th to 30th picks and have lesser value than early 2nd rounders from the 31st to 35th range.

So the 28 pick has lesser value than the 35th pick? Classic!

[HarlemHeat37]

LOL you asked Jerry West about the collusion, and he said no?!..what the fuck?!..totally unexpected..I am absolutely shocked right now, I need some air..

I don't know what's worse..the fact that you're using that as an argument against collusion, or the fact that you personally asked Jerry West this stupid question, expecting any answer other than the answer he ended up giving you..

[DPG21920]

I am agnostic.

A person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

I'm not out there making accusations that he does or doesn't. If I mad an accusation that god did not exist then you can tell me to prove it. You asked if I "believe" in god. My answer was no.

So.... you prove that he does exist if you are claming he does.

Nice try!

:lmao

[Chieflion]

So the 28 pick has lesser value than the 35th pick? Classic!

Believe what you will. Guaranteed money has to be paid for players who want to come in to the NBA directly but projected 1st round picks who drop into the 2nd round do not have to be paid guaranteed money and are not bound by rookie scale contracts and are usually cheaper, and are essentially the same level of players.

[Mel_13]

So the 28 pick has lesser value than the 35th pick? Classic!

If you don't know why that's often true, you haven't been paying attention the past few years.

[HarlemHeat37]

Gobbler's ass hurts more than usual, everybody is running a train on him in this thread..who wants next?..

[cobbler]

Here's the thing... if he WAS involved, would he admit it? Again, I don't think collusion happened, just pointing out a (huge) flaw in your argument.


Just beacuse some quality players are chosen in the late rounds, does not mean that pick is half or even a quarter as valuable as lottery picks. Is there some "value" there? Sure. But the question is, did the Grizzlies gain value OVERALL? Most people would argue that the value of Pau Gasol at the time of the trade was much greater than cap space, some low first rnd picks, and Marc Gasol.

As well, you can't really look at something after the fact and say, "Well it worked out ok" to justify it. If I drive home drunk out of my mind, but manage not to hit anyone, does that mean that I didn't do anything wrong?

Again, I will go with the respected record of a class act person over internet arm chair GM's.

I never implied that late round picks are even a quarter as valuable as lottery picks. I simply said.... they have value and was told they have so little value its silly. I happen to believe thye have value and showed quie a few quality players that have been chosen in those picks.

And most people did argue that the Grizz didnt get equal value at the time. Now they are retracting and seeing what they couldn't 3 years ago.

[LnGrrrR]

I am agnostic.


Technically, you're probably an agnostic atheist.

Agnostic - without knowledge
Atheist - without belief

I am an agnostic atheist. I don't know if God exists, and I don't believe.

[cobbler]

LOL you asked Jerry West about the collusion, and he said no?!..what the fuck?!..totally unexpected..I am absolutely shocked right now, I need some air..

I don't know what's worse..the fact that you're using that as an argument against collusion, or the fact that you personally asked Jerry West this stupid question, expecting any answer other than the answer he ended up giving you..

It was a comment in a conversation while we were talking about all the arm chair GM's out on the internet. It's not an argument at all. I don't believe there was any collusion. You do. So prove it. Put your proof where your mouth is. All you can do is say well of course they would deny it. Well, show me any inkling of proof and i will listen. If it's all going to be factless accusations... then you have nothing but hot air on your side.... with is par for the course.

[cobbler]

Technically, you're probably an agnostic atheist.

Agnostic - without knowledge
Atheist - without belief

I am an agnostic atheist. I don't know if God exists, and I don't believe.

agreed

[Mel_13]

Well, show me any inkling of proof and i will listen.

You do realize that there is no proof that it didn't happen. All you have is denials from people who would incriminating themselves to say otherwise.

[cobbler]

You do realize that there is no proof that it didn't happen. All you have is denials from people who would incriminating themselves to say otherwise.

In our country... the burden of proof is on the accusor.

[DPG21920]

Who do you believe was behind 9/11 Cobbler?

[Mel_13]

In our country... the burden of proof is on the accusor.

This is a message board, not Law and Order.

[cobbler]

Gobbler's ass hurts more than usual, everybody is running a train on him in this thread..who wants next?..

Why would I be butthurt. I am sitting here laughing at you. You guys are so butthurt over the Lakers success that you just can't let the Gasol trade go. Not quite sure how your whining and bitching make me hurt but it it make you feel special... good for you.

[cobbler]

This is a message board, not Law and Order.

uhhhh ok....

you still have NOTHING to support your accusations. NADA

[Mel_13]

Why would I be butthurt. I am sitting here laughing at you. You guys are so butthurt over the Lakers success that you just can't let the Gasol trade go. Not quite sure how your whining and bitching make me hurt but it it make you feel special... good for you.

:lol

Says the guy presenting the full-throated defense of the trade.

[Mel_13]

uhhhh ok....

you still have NOTHING to support your accusations. NADA

First off, I haven't made the slightest attempt to make a case that collusion exists. I'm just enjoying watching you flail about trying to prove that it doesn't.

And you have NOTHING to support your defense except for denials from the parties involved. NADA.

[cobbler]

First off, I haven't made the slightest attempt to make a case that collusion exists. I'm just enjoying watching you flail about trying to prove that it doesn't.

And you have NOTHING to support your defense except for denials from the parties involved. NADA.

I dont have to prove it doesn't. I can certainly relpy to the people that are still crying about it and I do. Flail? I stand by everything I have said and I have not heard one tiny bit of proof to support the accusations.

[Mel_13]

I dont have to prove it doesn't. I can certainly relpy to the people that are still crying about it and I do. Flail? I stand by everything I have said and I have not heard one tiny bit of proof to support the accusations.

Of course you don't have to prove that it doesn't, yet you keep trying. Really quite entertaining.

Look, as Laker fans go you seem fairly rational. You must realize that the only reason this thread didn't die yesterday is because of Laker fans offering a defense. Then the whole discussion becomes about the flaws in that defense, and there are plenty of flaws in that defense.

If you really want to play out the courtroom scenario, you wouldn't even offer a defense since your position is that the prosecution hasn't met the burden of proof.

For the entertainment value alone, I hope you keep up your defense.

[v2freak]

LOL you asked Jerry West about the collusion, and he said no?!..what the fuck?!..totally unexpected..I am absolutely shocked right now, I need some air..

I don't know what's worse..the fact that you're using that as an argument against collusion, or the fact that you personally asked Jerry West this stupid question, expecting any answer other than the answer he ended up giving you..

:rollin


Bottom line...

All you bozos can cry collusion all you want. You can cry the trade was completely lopsided all you want. You can deny that late first round picks have value all you want.

Facts are until proven otherwise. No collusion ever took place. If you have facts to prove otherewise show them. Otherwise STFU about collusion.

The trade, though seemingly lopsided at the time has turned out to be great for both parties. Other teams and fans bitching about it is only sour grapes that they didn't make the deal first. Some people saw the potential of Marc and other did not. There is no shame in not seeing it but there certainly is in calling out others because they did. There are numerous articles out now that have revisited the trade and conclude that it wasn't the great robbery that was once whined about.

So really, what we're looking at here is a Gasol-for-Gasol deal, which all of a sudden doesn't seem that lopsided from the standpoint of the Grizzlies.

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/02/01/two-years-after-gasol-trade-grizzlies-doing-just-fine/


"They gave up a great player but it helped them extend the franchise's success into the future," Popovich said. "It's shown that they've done a good job. Whatever they were thinking a couple of iterations ahead at the time has paid off for them."

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/01/30/popovich-retreats-in-war-against-grizzlies/


The once-maligned trade that moved Pau Gasol from Memphis to the Los Angeles Lakers two years ago this month looks a lot different these days.

What initially was greeted with great cynicism, laughter and disgust -- a lopsided transaction in the Lakers' favor -- is looking more like a win-win for both teams.

Cap space and flexibility are no longer punch lines in Memphis. The Griz, given time to connect the dots of the deal, have stockpiled useful players.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/feb/23/laugh-no-more/


etc... etc... etc...

The bolded parts are what I got from your post - a contradiction. I actually do respect that you are trying to defend your team, especially with a line of people bigger than Macy's at Christmas, waiting to tear you to pieces. But at this point I am wondering if you honestly believe the Lakers and Grizzlies didn't collude, or you are just defending them because they're your team.

[cobbler]

:rollin



The bolded parts are what I got from your post - a contradiction. I actually do respect that you are trying to defend your team, especially with a line of people bigger than Macy's at Christmas, waiting to tear you to pieces. But at this point I am wondering if you honestly believe the Lakers and Grizzlies didn't collude, or you are just defending them because they're your team.

I honestly believe because I know what happened. I am also a Laker homer. It's not rocket science and has been beaten to death. Yet anytime the Lakers see success out it comes again and again. Jerry went to Mitch and told him that even though Pau was on the market for over a year and Mitch had never thought he could come up with the pieces to obtain him, that he should try and work a deal as the Grizz would consider an expiring since they were not getting equal player offers across the board. Mitch then ran with it. No wrong doing there.