7 Questions for Defenders of Israel's Gaza Blockade

[Winehole23]

7 Questions for Defenders of Israel's Inhumane Siege of Gaza (http://www.alternet.org/world/147132/7_questions_for_defenders_of_israel%27s_inhumane_s iege_of_gaza/?page=1)


The Gaza blockade has nothing to do with Israel defending itself.
June 7, 2010 |

http://www.alternet.org/images/managed/storyteaser_gazabombs_1253895516.jpg_310x220








Apologists for the brutal siege of Gaza base their defense largely on a single, spectacularly dishonest argument: that Israel is only trying to keep arms out of Gaza -- arms that Hamas might use against Israeli civilians.

It’s a red herring of monstrous proportions, made more pernicious by the brutal effects of the blockade it supports. It’s dishonest because people around the world are not outraged by the idea of Israel keeping weapons out of the hands of Hamas. The entire world (perhaps aside from the United States and Israel) is appalled by the gradual strangulation of the people of Gaza -- young and old, innocent and guilty-- under an intentional man-made humanitarian crisis.

It’s imperative that people of good conscience not let Israel’s defenders get away with this bait-and switch. Israel’s “right to defend itself” has nothing to do with the moral outrage caused by the blockade. But it is nonetheless becoming the center of the debate.


In order to keep the focus on the real issue, here are seven questions for those who continue to claim the siege is about Israel’s security. If you encounter such an argument, just concede the point that Israel has every right in the world to check incoming containers for weapons, at least for the sake of argument, and then launch right into these Columbo-style (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbo_%28TV_series%29) questions. They’re impossible to answer. (Unless otherwise noted, this is the source (http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/06/03/what_exactly_is_the_blockade_of_gaza) for the following info).



Impossible-to-Answer Question #1: What’s the connection between a hungry Palestinian population and keeping weapons out of the hands of Hamas? I know Israel says it’s letting in enough food in to prevent a humanitarian crisis, but UN officials have called the situation "grim," "deteriorating" and a "medieval siege." A bare minimum of 400 truckloads of goods needs to enter Gaza per week, and an average of 171 get in (http://jstreet.org/page/gaza-flotilla#qablockade). According to the World Health Organization, one in 10 Gazans suffer from “chronic malnutrition,” and the UN says six in 10 Gaza households are "food insecure."


Question #2: What changed? I mean, the Gaza strip has been under Israeli occupation since 1978, and in that time Israel has always prohibited the importation of weapons. Hamas has been around since 1978, and has always been an armed enemy. So if it’s all about security, why is it that Israel started preventing 75 percent of all manner of imported goods (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm) coming into Gaza only after the election of Hamas, a result rejected by Israel and the international community?


Question #3: Is Israel afraid of some sort of deadly sweet-and-savory weapon? Because I know it has, at various times, prevented chocolate, jam, sage and coriander from coming into Gaza. Just wondering what Israel’s security has to do with Gazans’ flavoring options, you know? Or are you saying that people who don’t have access to French fries, dried fruit -- or fabric, notebooks or toys for that matter -- are less likely to become terrorists?


Question #4: Israel attacked Gaza’s main power plant in 2006, and it won’t let the Gazans bring in the parts needed to restore its output to the previous levels. The majority of houses in Gaza experience power outages of at least eight hours per day, but some have no juice for as much as 12 hours a day. So, you know: Is Israel worried about rechargeable weapons of some sort?



Question #5: So, Israel “has not permitted supplies into the Gaza Strip to rebuild the sewage system,” and Amnesty International says that up to 95 percent of the water in Gaza isn’t healthy for human consumption. There isn’t enough power to run the desalination and sewage facilities, so significant amounts of sewage are seeping into Gaza's coastal aquifer, the population’s main source of water. Help me understand what Israel is defending against, here? Some sort of frozen ice-missile technology?


Question #6: How does barring the export of allgoods from Gaza keep weapons out of Gaza? Am I not getting what the words “out” and “in” mean? The World Health Organization says, "In the Gaza Strip, private enterprise is practically at a standstill as a consequence of the blockade. 98 percent of industrial operations have been shut down.” Not sure how further impoverishing Gaza’s already poor population makes Israel more secure -- help me understand?


Question #7: If it’s about keeping weapons out of Gaza, then why won’t Israel allow in medical equipment, spare parts and the building materials necessary to rebuild the health-care infrastructure that was devastated in the 2008 war? The World Health Organization says (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm) the blockade has "accelerated the degeneration" of Gaza’s health system. Is the idea that keeping the health-care system down will make people too weak and infirm to pick up a weapon?



These questions are unanswerable because the blockade of Gaza is about keeping goods from flowing in and out of Gaza. Push them on their answers. Are they saying it enhances Israel’s security because people who are jobless, hungry, poor and in bad health may have less will to resist? That’s the definition of collective punishment, a serious crime since World War II, when the world reacted with revulsion to the collective punishments meted out by the Axis powers to the populations of the territories they occupied.



The argument that Israel is only keeping weapons out of the hands of terrorists is not a minor distraction. As I wrote last week (http://www.alternet.org/world/147115/the_gaza_blockade_is_illegal_and_the_flotilla_atta ck_was_an_illegal_act_of_war/), the Israeli government is an occupying power that exercises “effective control” over Gaza. Some have argued that Gaza is an independent entity at war with Israel, and the Israeli Supreme Court agreed, ruling that Israel “had no commitment 'to deal with the welfare of the residents of the Gaza Strip or to allow unlimited amounts of goods and merchandise' to pass through, but only vital and humanitarian goods."


But outside of Israel it’s not a serious claim. According to the United Nations, “Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem [are designated] as Occupied Palestinian Territory… that definition hasn't changed." The United States government, Israel’s closest ally, says unambiguously: “West Bank and Gaza Strip are Israeli-occupied with current status subject to the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement… permanent status to be determined through further negotiation; Israel removed settlers and military personnel from the Gaza Strip in August 2005.”



As an occupying power, Israel does have the right to keep weapons out of Gaza. But it also has a legal responsibility to safeguard the well-being of the civilian population. This is why the whole narrative of keeping rockets out is such a insidious lie.



The suffering in Gaza doesn't make Israel any safer. As the progressive pro-Israel group J Street noted, “Israel is a world leader in the monitoring and border control technology necessary to ensure weapons are not moved across the border into Gaza.” It added: “with fewer soldiers and resources assigned to enforcing the current blockade on non-military items, Israel could more effectively devote its energies to detecting and closing the tunnels through which Hamas is currently shipping arms.” Israel claims that just about any aid could be "diverted" to Hamas, but as the BBC notes (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm), aid groups working in Gaza "have stringent monitoring systems in place."


For supporters of the siege, the value of the defense argument is simple to grasp. Intercepting weapons is a military objective. In international law, an occupying power has broad leeway in the use of force to accomplish military objectives. The siege of Gaza is, and always was, meant to crush Gaza’s economy, impose severe suffering on the population and ultimately make it impossible for Hamas to govern. The Israeli government has not hidden this fact. As J Street put it, "Israeli officials have repeatedly characterized their blockade policy in the following terms: ‘No prosperity, no development, no humanitarian crisis.’" When the siege was first imposed, Dov Weisglass, an adviser to then Prime-Minister Ehud Olmert, explained (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel), "The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger."


The blockade’s objective is political, not military. It’s a collective punishment of the entire population of Gaza (approximately half of whom are under 18 years of age). It is a violation of the 4th Geneva Convention. It’s a serious crime. And the world is calling for Israel to bring it to an end, not to stop intercepting weapons.



People who know what has happened to Gaza over the past 3.5 years consider the weapons argument a kind of tragic joke. As Lindsey Hilsum, the international editor for Britain’s Channel 4 put it (http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/international_politics/gaza+blockade+no+international+inquiry+says+israel/3671232), “Somewhere in Gaza, someone may once have tried to fashion a missile from a chicken hatchery, a goat, a bunch of coriander and a fishing rod stuck together with jam.” Israel’s kept all of those goods out of Gaza, with the intended result of making the people miserable. Strangling the Gazan economy, making eight out of 10 people dependent on international aid groups (http://jstreet.org/page/gaza-flotilla#qablockade) and making sure the residents can’t get their hands on tea and coffee isn’t making Israel one bit more secure.

[Winehole23]

http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/06/03/what_exactly_is_the_blockade_of_gaza

[ChumpDumper]

Why no crayons?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

When exactly did we start believing Israel can do no wrong? That any criticism of Jewish misconduct is tantamount to anti-semitism? God knows their Arab neighbours are not innocent at all, but it amazes me how much crap people tolerate from Israel simply on the premise that either "they wouldn't do that" or "their situation warrants it".

Shit, I'm willing to bet American's in general are more willing to believe their government engaged in some manner of criminal behavior before they'll even entertain the idea that Israel might be.

[jack sommerset]

Lots of Jew hating going on.

[DarkReign]

Lots of Jew hating going on.

Yeah, thats it.

[DarrinS]

List of items allowed into Gaza.

Source: BBC 3/5/2010


1 wheat 1st half 2009
2 animal feed 1st half 2009
3 flour 1st half 2009
4 cooking oil 1st half 2009
5 cooking fat 1st half 2009
6 sugar 1st half 2009
7 salt 1st half 2009
8 pasta 1st half 2009
9 dates 1st half 2009
10 garlic 1st half 2009
11 chick peas 1st half 2009
12 rice 1st half 2009
13 beans 1st half 2009
14 lentils 1st half 2009
15 kidney beans 1st half 2009
16 margarine 1st half 2009
17 dairy products 1st half 2009
18 powdered milk 1st half 2009
19 frozen meat and fish 1st half 2009
20 frozen vegetables 1st half 2009
21 animal medicines 1st half 2009
22 gas for medical use 1st half 2009
23 empty bags for flour 1st half 2009
24 medicines and medical equipment 1st half 2009
25 female hygiene products 1st half 2009
26 nappies (diapers) 1st half 2009
27 toilet paper 1st half 2009
28 detergent 1st half 2009
29 washing liquid 1st half 2009
30 shampoo 1st half 2009
31 soap 1st half 2009
32 toothpaste 1st half 2009
33 toothbrushes 1st half 2009
34 cleaning products for tiles 1st half 2009
35 cleaning products for glass 1st half 2009
36 toilet-cleaner 1st half 2009
37 yeast 1st half 2009
38 fertilised eggs 1st half 2009
39 fruit 1st half 2009
40 semolina 1st half 2009
41 polythene for greenhouses June 2009
42 agricultural materials June 2009
43 tea October 2009
44 coffee October 2009
45 instant coffee November 2009
46 canned tuna November 2009
47 salami November 2009
48 canned meat November 2009
49 washing-up sponges November 2009
50 bath sponges November 2009
51 cloths for mopping the floor November 2009
52 baby wipes November 2009
53 other canned goods, with the exception of tinned fruit November 2009
54 zaatar (dried herb mix) November 2009
55 sesame seeds November 2009
56 black pepper November 2009
57 chicken stock powder November 2009
58 blankets November 2009
59 olives December 2009
60 matches December 2009
61 candles December 2009
62 sticks for brooms December 2009
63 rubbish bins December 2009
64 mops December 2009
65 hand-cleansing gel December 2009
66 aniseed December 2009
67 cinnamon December 2009
68 camomile December 2009
69 unfertilised eggs December 2009
70 glass (to a maximum of 200 trucks) December 2009
71 water-dispensers December 2009
72 potatoes December 2009
73 mineral water February 2010
74 tahini (sesame paste) March 2010
75 combs March 2010
76 hair brushes March 2010
77 clothes March 2010
78 shoes March 2010
79 wood (for doorposts and window frames) April 2010
80 aluminium April 2010
81 kitchenware April 2010

[DarrinS]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/09/israel-allows-banned-products-gaza/

"Palestinian liaison official Raed Fattouh, who coordinates the flow of goods into Gaza with Israel, said that soda, juice, jam, spices, shaving cream, potato chips, cookies and candy were now permitted. He said some products have already entered Gaza, and others would cross in the coming days."

[clambake]

they're giving them cookies?

them jews are gettin soft.

[ElNono]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/09/israel-allows-banned-products-gaza/

"Palestinian liaison official Raed Fattouh, who coordinates the flow of goods into Gaza with Israel, said that soda, juice, jam, spices, shaving cream, potato chips, cookies and candy were now permitted. He said some products have already entered Gaza, and others would cross in the coming days."

FTA:

"The closure has devastated Gaza's already battered economy, erased tens of thousands of jobs and prevented the area from repairing damage after a fierce Israeli military offensive in Gaza early last year.

Wednesday's gesture was unlikely to blunt the international criticism since it doesn't lift the ban on materials needed to rebuild Gaza. Fattouh said Israeli officials rebuffed Palestinian requests for construction goods, raw materials for factories to operate and medical devices.

Israeli officials confirmed the decision to allow in the new foods.

They said the move was meant to defuse pressure for an international investigation of the raid. Another government official said they would continue to ease the blockade but offered no further details. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity pending a formal government announcement.

Much of the international criticism of Israel's blockade has centered on the ban on raw materials and some fuels from entering Gaza, and the arbitrary nature of some of the banned items. Israel had barred things like potato chips and cookies, while permitting gourmet items like diet yogurt and herbal tea."

[DarrinS]

As you can see, with all the items that are allowed in, Gaza is just like a giant Auschwitz.

[DarrinS]

As it relates to the OP, this is a good article.


End the Gaza blockade? If only it were that simple

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/03/israel-gaza-blockade




The devastating events off the Gaza coast are shocking to all. Nobody wanted this to happen, and all involved need to look at what they could have done to avoid these deaths. However, much of the response to this incident has failed to look at the reality of the situation that lies behind it. Widespread calls on Israel to lift its restrictions on access to Gaza have been made with little serious discussion of the implications.

There are good reasons to object to the situation in Gaza. The condition of the people there is deeply disturbing to all individuals of good conscience. However, many commentators critical of Israel's policies have ignored the reasons why those policies are in place. Israel, along with Egypt, the moderate Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, and much of the international community, faces an acute dilemma over how to contain the Hamas regime in Gaza.

The naval blockade addresses a real military-security threat. Iran is trying arm Hamas to the same levels as Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. Currently their method is to smuggle weapons under the Gaza-Egypt border. Without a naval blockade, they can simply dock their boatloads of rockets in the Gaza port. No sensible observer can think that this is an acceptable situation to Israel or the international community. UN security council resolution 1860, adopted towards the end of the conflict in Gaza in January 2009, called on all states to intensify efforts to "prevent illicit trafficking in arms and ammunition" to Gaza.

With regard to the Israeli restrictions on the Gaza-Israel land border, many have called for the 2005 Agreement on Movement and Access to be implemented. This is a good agreement, and reflected a moment of hope after Israel removed all its settlements and military forces from the Gaza Strip. The agreement, if implemented, would provide for the normalisation of access to Gaza, and would facilitate enormous economic improvements for the people there.

However, to call for the agreement as it was signed in 2005 to be implemented today is to ignore the changed political reality. The Agreement on Movement and Access was signed by Israel and the Palestinian Authority under President Mahmoud Abbas. Since it was signed, forces loyal to Abbas were violently ousted from Gaza in a coup, after which Hamas took sole control of the strip. To this day, there remains a split in the Palestinian camp between the moderate Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, which is committed to negotiation with Israel, and the Hamas regime in Gaza which, backed by Iran, seeks to maintain a state of war.

The policy of the Quartet and Israel since 2007 has been to isolate Hamas and strengthen the West Bank Palestinian Authority under Mahmoud Abbas and Palestinian prime minister Salam Fayyad. This is why most western diplomats refuse to have contact with Hamas officials, without Hamas first moderating its position by recognising Israel, renouncing violence, and adhering to previous peace agreements. In the context of this wider international effort to weaken Hamas, Israel allows basic goods into Gaza, but restricts other materials that might be used by Hamas for military purposes, or might strengthen them politically.

As a result of these policies, there is a sharp contrast between the situation in Gaza and that in the West Bank. The economy of the West Bank has greatly improved in the last three years thanks to international aid, improved Palestinian security forces, and seen a corresponding reduction in Israeli restrictions on movement and access. By contrast, denied international recognition and access, the Hamas regime in Gaza, having refused to moderate its stance, has failed to provide for its people.

Hamas has rejected repeated attempts by Egypt to reunify the Palestinian Authority and bring about new Palestinian elections. Hamas has also repeatedly rejected a prisoner exchange deal that would bring the release of captive Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit and a potential relaxation of border restrictions by Israel or Egypt. I know from a recent visit to Cairo that the Egyptians are furious with Hamas. This explains why they have kept their own border with Gaza closed most of the time. They perceive the Palestinian Islamist group to be no less a threat to them than to Israel.

The policy of differentiation between the Hamas regime in Gaza and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank has shown some measure of success. It is not hard to see why Hamas are avoiding a Palestinian unity agreement that would bring elections. Repeated polls indicate that their popularity has waned severely and that they would be likely to lose badly. What is the one thing that could rescue the Palestinian rejectionist camp? A successful campaign to break the international policy of isolation, and the removal of the restrictions on access to Gaza.

It is legitimate to ask whether Israel has got the balance right on its restrictions, and whether the harm to the ordinary citizens of Gaza can be justified to maintain the isolation of Hamas. But to simply call for an end to the blockade, or an implementation of the Agreement on Movement and Access, without any reference to the political and security consequences is to avoid dealing with the difficult political reality. Western policymakers must address the rights of the people of Gaza, but must also take account of the imperative not to strengthen those who reject the peace process, or their backers in Tehran and Damascus.

[xeromass]

Somehow soda, juice, jam, spices, shaving cream, potato chips, cookies and candy are no longer threats to Israeli national security. Weird world.

[Wild Cobra]

As you can see, with all the items that are allowed in, Gaza is just like a giant Auschwitz.
No, it's worse. they fatten then up before the slaughter.

[Wild Cobra]

Somehow soda, juice, jam, spices, shaving cream, potato chips, cookies and candy are no longer threats to Israeli national security. Weird world.
I thought some on the items not automatically allowed was weird myself. Still, people are judging before you know the reason.

[Winehole23]

List of items allowed into Gaza.

Source: BBC 3/5/2010


1 wheat 1st half 2009
2 animal feed 1st half 2009
3 flour 1st half 2009
4 cooking oil 1st half 2009
5 cooking fat 1st half 2009
6 sugar 1st half 2009
7 salt 1st half 2009
8 pasta 1st half 2009
9 dates 1st half 2009
10 garlic 1st half 2009
11 chick peas 1st half 2009
12 rice 1st half 2009
13 beans 1st half 2009
14 lentils 1st half 2009
15 kidney beans 1st half 2009
16 margarine 1st half 2009
17 dairy products 1st half 2009
18 powdered milk 1st half 2009
19 frozen meat and fish 1st half 2009
20 frozen vegetables 1st half 2009
21 animal medicines 1st half 2009
22 gas for medical use 1st half 2009
23 empty bags for flour 1st half 2009
24 medicines and medical equipment 1st half 2009
25 female hygiene products 1st half 2009
26 nappies (diapers) 1st half 2009
27 toilet paper 1st half 2009
28 detergent 1st half 2009
29 washing liquid 1st half 2009
30 shampoo 1st half 2009
31 soap 1st half 2009
32 toothpaste 1st half 2009
33 toothbrushes 1st half 2009
34 cleaning products for tiles 1st half 2009
35 cleaning products for glass 1st half 2009
36 toilet-cleaner 1st half 2009
37 yeast 1st half 2009
38 fertilised eggs 1st half 2009
39 fruit 1st half 2009
40 semolina 1st half 2009
41 polythene for greenhouses June 2009
42 agricultural materials June 2009
43 tea October 2009
44 coffee October 2009
45 instant coffee November 2009
46 canned tuna November 2009
47 salami November 2009
48 canned meat November 2009
49 washing-up sponges November 2009
50 bath sponges November 2009
51 cloths for mopping the floor November 2009
52 baby wipes November 2009
53 other canned goods, with the exception of tinned fruit November 2009
54 zaatar (dried herb mix) November 2009
55 sesame seeds November 2009
56 black pepper November 2009
57 chicken stock powder November 2009
58 blankets November 2009
59 olives December 2009
60 matches December 2009
61 candles December 2009
62 sticks for brooms December 2009
63 rubbish bins December 2009
64 mops December 2009
65 hand-cleansing gel December 2009
66 aniseed December 2009
67 cinnamon December 2009
68 camomile December 2009
69 unfertilised eggs December 2009
70 glass (to a maximum of 200 trucks) December 2009
71 water-dispensers December 2009
72 potatoes December 2009
73 mineral water February 2010
74 tahini (sesame paste) March 2010
75 combs March 2010
76 hair brushes March 2010
77 clothes March 2010
78 shoes March 2010
79 wood (for doorposts and window frames) April 2010
80 aluminium April 2010
81 kitchenware April 2010The blockade began in 2007, so the items on this list were all forbidden to pass for 2-3 years.

Wouldn't you say it is a pretty serious hardship to go without the first 50 items on this list for a matter of years?

[clambake]

why would animals need all these things?

[Winehole23]

Unwittingly, you just underscored the severity of the Gaza blockade, Darrin.

[Winehole23]

Still less have you -- or anyone else -- addressed how it has made Israel more secure, or why it is uniquely appointed to meet this end.

[Winehole23]

Lots of Jew hating going on.Israel is a state not a religion, Jack.

[Wild Cobra]

The blockade began in 2007, so the items on this list were all forbidden to pass for 2-3 years.

Wouldn't you say it is a pretty serious hardship to go without the first 50 items on this list for a matter of years?
They weren't forbidden, they were not automatically excepted. This did effectively make then forbidden because they were inspected after acceptable goods were. I would guess this all had to be with possible carriers of banned items.

[Wild Cobra]

why would animals need all these things?
Implanted explosives.

[ChumpDumper]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/09/israel-allows-banned-products-gaza/

"Palestinian liaison official Raed Fattouh, who coordinates the flow of goods into Gaza with Israel, said that soda, juice, jam, spices, shaving cream, potato chips, cookies and candy were now permitted. He said some products have already entered Gaza, and others would cross in the coming days."Why were those items ever prohibited, Darrin?

WC?

[Winehole23]

They weren't forbidden, they were not automatically excepted. This did effectively make then forbidden because they were inspected after acceptable goods were. I would guess this all had to be with possible carriers of banned items.More PFA from WC.

[Winehole23]

The Blockade Keeps “Working” (http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2010/06/08/the-blockade-keeps-working/)

Posted on June 8th, 2010 by Daniel Larison



Hamas’s security forces remain strong and in full control, while more extreme Islamist challengers are gaining influence because of an Israeli embargo that has done more to frustrate the population than to weaken Hamas’s grip, analysts say. ~The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/06/AR2010060604006_pf.html)
The article goes on to say that Israel wanted to “wait and see whether Gaza’s residents would rise up and force Hamas out.” One might conclude from this that Israel would end the blockade once it realizes that this is never going to happen, but that would be wrong. The trouble with this wait-and-see approach to regime change is that there is no obvious end to it. If Gazans haven’t overthrown Hamas yet, just wait a few more years and see what happens. A few more years becomes a decade, and then two decades, and in the end the blockade becomes essentially a permanent feature. Even if Hamas is eventually overthrown by people in Gaza, it will likely be by a more radical faction that comes to see Hamas as corrupt and ineffective, much as Hamas saw Fatah, and the rise of that faction will provide new justification for continuing the blockade.



There is a certain perverse logic to all of this. The misery, poverty and hopelessness created by a virtually stagnant private economy in a densely-populated, isolated enclave radicalizes the population even more, but more than that it deprives them of the incentive to turn against their own leadership and it makes them incapable of organizing effective resistance against the local regime. Everything about the blockade ensures that the political conditions in Gaza can only get worse, but lifting the blockade depends on the improvement of those conditions. Sometimes critics will refer to Gaza as an “open-air prison,” but the remarkable thing about the situation is that Israel and Hamas effectively collaborate as the jailors of the civilian population: Israel hems them in and controls their access to the outside world, and Hamas runs internal security to keep the population under their control. Officially, Israel claims that it wants a prison riot to break out, but by their actions the Israeli government seems satisfied to bring about a very different outcome.
The Post article continues:

Bruce Riedel, a former Middle East analyst for the CIA who is now with the Brookings Institution in Washington, said he has no doubt that “Hamas now faces a much bigger threat from the extreme jihadists sympathetic to al-Qaeda” than from Fatah, which controls the West Bank. Al-Qaeda sympathizers appeal to Hamas’s core constituency “of militants who want to fight Israel, not live in a cease-fire and under blockade. They are frustrated that Hamas won’t allow [rocket] attacks or attempts to kidnap more Israelis [bold mine-DL]. Hamas has the upper hand for now because it has more force and is ruthless in using it, but the long trend is worrisome.”
The standard line we hear in defense of the blockade is that it is necessary to prevent Hamas from attacking Israel. The analysis in the article suggests that the blockade is actually making future attacks more likely by encouraging more radical groups to challenge Hamas on account of its apparent lack of militancy. The cease-fire is holding, but the blockade is still being enforced rigorously. The tightness of the blockade seems to have no relationship to security conditions. Under these conditions, Hamas appears unduly weak and conciliatory. To the extent that there are any political forces opposed to Hamas in Gaza, they are even more implacable and uncompromising, and the blockade is slowly making them stronger.

[Wild Cobra]

Why were those items ever prohibited, Darrin?

WC?
Ask Isreal.

I have some guesses that hold merit, but I cannot claim them as fact. I already stated a couple possibilities.

Do you think I'm a mind reader or something? Get real.

[DarrinS]

There is a certain perverse logic to all of this. The misery, poverty and hopelessness created by a virtually stagnant private economy in a densely-populated, isolated enclave radicalizes the population even more, but more than that it deprives them of the incentive to turn against their own leadership




Gotta call bullshit on that.

What happened after Israel abandoned Gaza in 2005? Before the blockade? What was radicalizing the population then?


What is it you Hamas sympathizers want Israel to do?

[Wild Cobra]

Gotta call bullshit on that.

What happened after Israel abandoned Gaza in 2005? Before the blockade? What was radicalizing the population then?


What is it you Hamas sympathizers want Israel to do?
No kidding.

things were far better for Gaza when Israel was there.

[sook]

Gotta call bullshit on that.

What happened after Israel abandoned Gaza in 2005? Before the blockade? What was radicalizing the population then?


What is it you Hamas sympathizers want Israel to do?

why the hell is tha tso hard to believe, to be honest its common sense.

When Israel is the one denying basic aid and the main oppressor, its going to be seen as worse than hamaas. Mostly because Israel always does everything in the most oppressive violent manner possible.

But that means nothing to you, I bet you think they've never faulted even once towards the palest. And we know how impossible that is for any nation.


I have a strong question for these adament supporters, are you getting paid to spread this propaganda bs and pretend you're buying into it?

Because right now Israel is a leach. Its not a two way relationship, we're the only ones giving and its hurting us right now.

To stand behind something hurting us to this extend only shows disloyalty towards ones own nation.

[DarrinS]

No kidding.

things were far better for Gaza when Israel was there.


You know, I can't honestly say that their blockade has been successful, but I do think their biggest mistake was leaving Gaza in the first place.

[DarkReign]

You two speak for Israel like theyre something more than what they actually are.

There is nothing special about Israel. The only remarkable thing about Israel is that it has incredibly disproportionate influence with the world's only superpower.

Beyond that, nothing to report. It is not a beacon of...anything. Its just another nation in a world littered with 3rd world Nothings. Israel could be gone tomorrow and you wouldnt know the damn difference.

[DarrinS]

You two speak for Israel like theyre something more than what they actually are.

There is nothing special about Israel. The only remarkable thing about Israel is that it has incredibly disproportionate influence with the world's only superpower.

Beyond that, nothing to report. It is not a beacon of...anything. Its just another nation in a world littered with 3rd world Nothings. Israel could be gone tomorrow and you wouldnt know the damn difference.

:lmao


http://www.science.co.il/images/satellite/f/Middle-East-night.jpg

[DarrinS]

Here's a link for DR, who thinks Israel contributes nothing to the world.

http://www.imninalu.net/Israel-Arabs.htm


I've also read somewhere that the GDP of entire Arab world is about equal to the GDP of Spain. :lmao

[ElNono]

Still less have you -- or anyone else -- addressed how it has made Israel more secure, or why it is uniquely appointed to meet this end.

[ElNono]

Here's a link for DR, who thinks Israel contributes nothing to the world.

http://www.imninalu.net/Israel-Arabs.htm

I've also read somewhere that the GDP of entire Arab world is about equal to the GDP of Spain. :lmao

I must have missed where DR said that Israel contributes less than Arab countries.

I would actually think he feels the exact same way about Arab countries as he does about Israel... but I'm sure he will let you know either way.

[DarrinS]

I must have missed where DR said that Israel contributes less than Arab countries.

I would actually think he feels the exact same way about Arab countries as he does about Israel... but I'm sure he will let you know either way.



You two speak for Israel like theyre something more than what they actually are.

There is nothing special about Israel. The only remarkable thing about Israel is that it has incredibly disproportionate influence with the world's only superpower.

Beyond that, nothing to report. It is not a beacon of...anything. Its just another nation in a world littered with 3rd world Nothings. Israel could be gone tomorrow and you wouldnt know the damn difference.



Uh, ok.

[ElNono]

Uh, ok.

I'm still missing where he mentions Arabs at all...

[sook]

I'm still missing where he mentions Arabs at all...

the point of the Darrins troll is not to question its logic.

[Ignignokt]

7 Questions for Defenders of Israel's Inhumane Siege of Gaza (http://www.alternet.org/world/147132/7_questions_for_defenders_of_israel%27s_inhumane_s iege_of_gaza/?page=1)


The Gaza blockade has nothing to do with Israel defending itself.
June 7, 2010 |

http://www.alternet.org/images/managed/storyteaser_gazabombs_1253895516.jpg_310x220








Apologists for the brutal siege of Gaza base their defense largely on a single, spectacularly dishonest argument: that Israel is only trying to keep arms out of Gaza -- arms that Hamas might use against Israeli civilians.

It’s a red herring of monstrous proportions, made more pernicious by the brutal effects of the blockade it supports. It’s dishonest because people around the world are not outraged by the idea of Israel keeping weapons out of the hands of Hamas. The entire world (perhaps aside from the United States and Israel) is appalled by the gradual strangulation of the people of Gaza -- young and old, innocent and guilty-- under an intentional man-made humanitarian crisis.

It’s imperative that people of good conscience not let Israel’s defenders get away with this bait-and switch. Israel’s “right to defend itself” has nothing to do with the moral outrage caused by the blockade. But it is nonetheless becoming the center of the debate.


In order to keep the focus on the real issue, here are seven questions for those who continue to claim the siege is about Israel’s security. If you encounter such an argument, just concede the point that Israel has every right in the world to check incoming containers for weapons, at least for the sake of argument, and then launch right into these Columbo-style (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbo_%28TV_series%29) questions. They’re impossible to answer. (Unless otherwise noted, this is the source (http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/06/03/what_exactly_is_the_blockade_of_gaza) for the following info).



Impossible-to-Answer Question #1: What’s the connection between a hungry Palestinian population and keeping weapons out of the hands of Hamas? I know Israel says it’s letting in enough food in to prevent a humanitarian crisis, but UN officials have called the situation "grim," "deteriorating" and a "medieval siege." A bare minimum of 400 truckloads of goods needs to enter Gaza per week, and an average of 171 get in (http://jstreet.org/page/gaza-flotilla#qablockade). According to the World Health Organization, one in 10 Gazans suffer from “chronic malnutrition,” and the UN says six in 10 Gaza households are "food insecure."


Question #2: What changed? I mean, the Gaza strip has been under Israeli occupation since 1978, and in that time Israel has always prohibited the importation of weapons. Hamas has been around since 1978, and has always been an armed enemy. So if it’s all about security, why is it that Israel started preventing 75 percent of all manner of imported goods (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm) coming into Gaza only after the election of Hamas, a result rejected by Israel and the international community?


Question #3: Is Israel afraid of some sort of deadly sweet-and-savory weapon? Because I know it has, at various times, prevented chocolate, jam, sage and coriander from coming into Gaza. Just wondering what Israel’s security has to do with Gazans’ flavoring options, you know? Or are you saying that people who don’t have access to French fries, dried fruit -- or fabric, notebooks or toys for that matter -- are less likely to become terrorists?


Question #4: Israel attacked Gaza’s main power plant in 2006, and it won’t let the Gazans bring in the parts needed to restore its output to the previous levels. The majority of houses in Gaza experience power outages of at least eight hours per day, but some have no juice for as much as 12 hours a day. So, you know: Is Israel worried about rechargeable weapons of some sort?



Question #5: So, Israel “has not permitted supplies into the Gaza Strip to rebuild the sewage system,” and Amnesty International says that up to 95 percent of the water in Gaza isn’t healthy for human consumption. There isn’t enough power to run the desalination and sewage facilities, so significant amounts of sewage are seeping into Gaza's coastal aquifer, the population’s main source of water. Help me understand what Israel is defending against, here? Some sort of frozen ice-missile technology?


Question #6: How does barring the export of allgoods from Gaza keep weapons out of Gaza? Am I not getting what the words “out” and “in” mean? The World Health Organization says, "In the Gaza Strip, private enterprise is practically at a standstill as a consequence of the blockade. 98 percent of industrial operations have been shut down.” Not sure how further impoverishing Gaza’s already poor population makes Israel more secure -- help me understand?


Question #7: If it’s about keeping weapons out of Gaza, then why won’t Israel allow in medical equipment, spare parts and the building materials necessary to rebuild the health-care infrastructure that was devastated in the 2008 war? The World Health Organization says (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm) the blockade has "accelerated the degeneration" of Gaza’s health system. Is the idea that keeping the health-care system down will make people too weak and infirm to pick up a weapon?



These questions are unanswerable because the blockade of Gaza is about keeping goods from flowing in and out of Gaza. Push them on their answers. Are they saying it enhances Israel’s security because people who are jobless, hungry, poor and in bad health may have less will to resist? That’s the definition of collective punishment, a serious crime since World War II, when the world reacted with revulsion to the collective punishments meted out by the Axis powers to the populations of the territories they occupied.



The argument that Israel is only keeping weapons out of the hands of terrorists is not a minor distraction. As I wrote last week (http://www.alternet.org/world/147115/the_gaza_blockade_is_illegal_and_the_flotilla_atta ck_was_an_illegal_act_of_war/), the Israeli government is an occupying power that exercises “effective control” over Gaza. Some have argued that Gaza is an independent entity at war with Israel, and the Israeli Supreme Court agreed, ruling that Israel “had no commitment 'to deal with the welfare of the residents of the Gaza Strip or to allow unlimited amounts of goods and merchandise' to pass through, but only vital and humanitarian goods."


But outside of Israel it’s not a serious claim. According to the United Nations, “Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem [are designated] as Occupied Palestinian Territory… that definition hasn't changed." The United States government, Israel’s closest ally, says unambiguously: “West Bank and Gaza Strip are Israeli-occupied with current status subject to the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement… permanent status to be determined through further negotiation; Israel removed settlers and military personnel from the Gaza Strip in August 2005.”



As an occupying power, Israel does have the right to keep weapons out of Gaza. But it also has a legal responsibility to safeguard the well-being of the civilian population. This is why the whole narrative of keeping rockets out is such a insidious lie.



The suffering in Gaza doesn't make Israel any safer. As the progressive pro-Israel group J Street noted, “Israel is a world leader in the monitoring and border control technology necessary to ensure weapons are not moved across the border into Gaza.” It added: “with fewer soldiers and resources assigned to enforcing the current blockade on non-military items, Israel could more effectively devote its energies to detecting and closing the tunnels through which Hamas is currently shipping arms.” Israel claims that just about any aid could be "diverted" to Hamas, but as the BBC notes (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm), aid groups working in Gaza "have stringent monitoring systems in place."


For supporters of the siege, the value of the defense argument is simple to grasp. Intercepting weapons is a military objective. In international law, an occupying power has broad leeway in the use of force to accomplish military objectives. The siege of Gaza is, and always was, meant to crush Gaza’s economy, impose severe suffering on the population and ultimately make it impossible for Hamas to govern. The Israeli government has not hidden this fact. As J Street put it, "Israeli officials have repeatedly characterized their blockade policy in the following terms: ‘No prosperity, no development, no humanitarian crisis.’" When the siege was first imposed, Dov Weisglass, an adviser to then Prime-Minister Ehud Olmert, explained (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel), "The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger."


The blockade’s objective is political, not military. It’s a collective punishment of the entire population of Gaza (approximately half of whom are under 18 years of age). It is a violation of the 4th Geneva Convention. It’s a serious crime. And the world is calling for Israel to bring it to an end, not to stop intercepting weapons.



People who know what has happened to Gaza over the past 3.5 years consider the weapons argument a kind of tragic joke. As Lindsey Hilsum, the international editor for Britain’s Channel 4 put it (http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/international_politics/gaza+blockade+no+international+inquiry+says+israel/3671232), “Somewhere in Gaza, someone may once have tried to fashion a missile from a chicken hatchery, a goat, a bunch of coriander and a fishing rod stuck together with jam.” Israel’s kept all of those goods out of Gaza, with the intended result of making the people miserable. Strangling the Gazan economy, making eight out of 10 people dependent on international aid groups (http://jstreet.org/page/gaza-flotilla#qablockade) and making sure the residents can’t get their hands on tea and coffee isn’t making Israel one bit more secure.


Hey dumbass, did you read his questions on notice that they're no questions at all, but either make no sense or already awnsered. Nevertheless, this guy has not demonstrated he's any sort of weapon's expert and he's wanting to buy his case at whole value as to why Israel is blockading goods.


Does this guy not believe that HAMAS is a terrorist organization and that Israel has good legitimate reasons to inspect weapons because the country is ran by a .. shit.. Terrorist organization. It's not as if it's the Baath party.

Also for the simple fact that he commits a logical fallacy by trying to appeal to authority by citing the UN's oppinion who is very much as political in it's declarations as any sovereign state.

And his question about if it's really about weapons inspections why don't the Israelis build clinics. That's like asking if you're all about abstaining from alcohol why don't you cut out swearing.


But nm, you never were a serious thinker here, nothing but the biggest butthurt forum nanny. :lmao

[Shastafarian]

Oren said Hamas has rejected the "snack foods" and other items that were moved to the acceptable list. Guess they don't see the same value of crayons that CD does.

[Ignignokt]

Maybe Hamas was inspired by Obama's health regulations.

[Shastafarian]

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177989

Some highlights:


Hamas could insure the full opening of the Gaza crossings by releasing Gilad Schalit, the captive soldier’s father, Noam, told visiting Latin American and European parliamentarians in Jerusalem on Wednesday...


Noam Schalit told the parliamentarians that a German-brokered proposal to swap 1,000 Palestinian security prisoners in Israeli jails for his son has gathered dust for six months, because Hamas has refused to approve it.

“The humanitarian situation in Gaza could be relieved in a few days if Hamas would approve the deal,” he said...


He charged that Hamas has held his son in violation of international law and ignored calls set out in the UN’s Goldstone Report on Gaza, which stated that Gilad should be free and that pending this release, he should be allowed visits by the International Red Cross...


The European Parliament this year called on Hamas to release him and a similar resolution is likely to be passed by the United States Senate, he said. Germany has been heavily involved in trying to mediate a deal, Noam added.

Still, “We are not sufficiently satisfied” by the international community’s reaction to his son’s kidnapping,” he said.

[Winehole23]

Factoid one: Hamas is a former client of Israel.

Factoid two: The USA insisted the political ban on Hamas be lifted, Israel reluctantly lifted the ban, to promote "free elections" and what happened?

Oops, Hamas won.




So what do we do?

Recognize the the winner of a fair, free election?

No. We refuse to recognize it..

[Winehole23]

Then Hamas shoots off a double-assload of very inaccurate rockets, killing a few people.

Then Israel kicks the shit out of them, after failing miserably yet, inflicting considerable pain, in Lebanon, and decides to punish Gaza indiscriminately with a blockade covering all manner of non-military and frankly essential goods. The which between states would be an act of war, but which in an occupied territory is merely a security operation in which 1200-1400 Gazans probably perished, about half of them known hostiles (to err on the liberal side.)

[Winehole23]

Free elections in the occupied territories and Egypt ain't a good idea, y'all. It wasn't all that good an idea in Iraq.

[Winehole23]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

[Winehole23]

OTOH, we might be well advised to let Afghanistan pick its own now. We've cocked it up monumentally, even if we win, whatever that means..

[Winehole23]

In Iraq we frankly got down too hard on the Sunnis, extirpated them diligently from government, and allowed the Iranian based DAWA and SCIRI parties to take over.

We should have let *some* of them continue to run the government in Iraq under our tutelage, without Saddam, instead of letting it be brazenly looted by the people, within the more or less plain sight of US troops.

JMO.

[Winehole23]

Time to GTFO of Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Winehole23]

With utmost celerity (http://dictionary.die.net/celerity), IMO.

[Winehole23]

Y'all know the action in Afghanistan just beat Vietnam, right? It's the longest action now. (Pace Haiti, 1900-1930)

Longest war evar.

[Winehole23]

WTF are we fighting it for?

[Winehole23]

Say your peace, war babies.

[Winehole23]

Gotta call bullshit on that.

What happened after Israel abandoned Gaza in 2005? Before the blockade? What was radicalizing the population then?At a different historical juncture, different things happen.

Please catch up.

Por ejemplo, You should try reading something for a change, instead of just hoisting your eyebrows endlessly, at things you're only superficially familiar with.


What is it you Hamas sympathizers want Israel to do?Who, please?

[Winehole23]

Hamas was dangerous long before 2006. How did Israel deal with Hamas before the pullout?

Didn't that work pretty good?

[ChumpDumper]

Oren said Hamas has rejected the "snack foods" and other items that were moved to the acceptable list. Guess they don't see the same value of crayons that CD does.Why were snack foods and crayons ever prohibited?

[DarrinS]

Hamas was dangerous long before 2006. How did Israel deal with Hamas before the pullout?

Didn't that work pretty good?


Boots on the ground. Human intelligence. Hello.

[Shastafarian]

Why were snack foods and crayons ever prohibited?

Oren said something to the effect of, "Gaza is a dangerous area run by people whose mission it is to destroy Israel. We send in [so many trucks a day] and didn't feel we were obligated to provide them with things like snack foods."

[Winehole23]

Boots on the ground. Human intelligence. Hello.So then, we essentially agree a blockade isn't the only viable and efffective option for Israel, right? History shows otherwise...

[DarrinS]

So then, we essentially agree an embargo isn't the only viable option for Israel, right?


Well, they don't have their boots on the ground in Gaza, that's for sure.


How do you feel about Egypt's role in the embargo?

[Winehole23]

How do you feel about Egypt's role in the embargo?About the same as I do about Israel's role.

[admiralsnackbar]

Why were snack foods and crayons ever prohibited?

I'd hazard a guess: it might be easy to disguise weapon components as (or in) the materials in question and the Israelis have limited time/resources to properly check such things.

As to defending the blockade in general... the success of a strategy that punishes the majority for the actions of a militant minority in an effort to eventually force the militant element into the open and out of power depends on said majority's trust in the punisher's ultimate purpose. The fatal flaw of Israel's plan is that the Palestinian people have no reason to trust any sovereign nation anymore, and increasing their hardship only inflames anti-Israeli sentiment and extremism.

You'd think that with the way Arab nations have denied aid and asylum to Palestinians, Israel could actually win points by being the only country to treat them with hospitality, but the other side of the coin is that Palestine is the favorite place for well-to-do Saudis to send anti-Jewish propaganda (instead of aid), which only reinforces the cycle of violence.

The bitch of all of this is that there isn't a neat solution to any of it. The blockade won't work, but negotiations won't either. Hopefully a new generation of Israelis and Palestinians will see past the horse-shit, but I don't get the feeling this one will do anything.

[Winehole23]

As Israel ordered a slight easing of its blockade of the Gaza Strip Wednesday, McClatchy obtained an Israeli government document that describes the blockade not as a security measure but as "economic warfare" against the Islamist group Hamas, which rules the Palestinian territory.

Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/09/95621/israeli-document-gaza-blockade.html (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/09/95621/israeli-document-gaza-blockade.html#ixzz0qTeceZuO)

[sook]

Hey dumbass, did you read his questions on notice that they're no questions at all, but either make no sense or already awnsered. Nevertheless, this guy has not demonstrated he's any sort of weapon's expert and he's wanting to buy his case at whole value as to why Israel is blockading goods.


Does this guy not believe that HAMAS is a terrorist organization and that Israel has good legitimate reasons to inspect weapons because the country is ran by a .. shit.. Terrorist organization. It's not as if it's the Baath party.

Also for the simple fact that he commits a logical fallacy by trying to appeal to authority by citing the UN's oppinion who is very much as political in it's declarations as any sovereign state.

And his question about if it's really about weapons inspections why don't the Israelis build clinics. That's like asking if you're all about abstaining from alcohol why don't you cut out swearing.


But nm, you never were a serious thinker here, nothing but the biggest butthurt forum nanny. :lmao

hey shit face, we already know you have israel's cock up your ass too far to think straight so why don't you take your unpatriotic ass out of here and keep your shit to yourself?

[Winehole23]

I'd hazard a guess: it might be easy to disguise weapon components as (or in) the materials in question and the Israelis have limited time/resources to properly check such things.
http://lemurking.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/crayon.jpg









http://www.furfishgame.com/_assets/images/featured_articles/2009-03/guns-cartridge-a.jpg

[Winehole23]

http://www.acepilots.com/ww2/m1-sniper.jpg

[Shastafarian]

Not to mention Hamas was stealing goods. I would guess limiting the "luxuries" they let in would also limit Hamas getting money from such goods.

[admiralsnackbar]

http://lemurking.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/crayon.jpg









http://www.furfishgame.com/_assets/images/featured_articles/2009-03/guns-cartridge-a.jpg

I was thinking plastique detonators, but yeah.

[Winehole23]

Not to mention, collective punishment sucks.

[ChumpDumper]

I was thinking plastique detonators, but yeah.Israel has no dogs?

[DarrinS]

Israel has no dogs?

Are you worrited they won't be able to color their suicide vests?

http://www.houseofpaine.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/child_suicide_bomber.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

Are you worrited they won't be able to color their suicide vests?No, I'm asking why Israel doesn't allow crayons.

Do you know?

[Winehole23]

Are you worrited they won't be able to color their suicide vests?

http://www.houseofpaine.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/child_suicide_bomber.jpgNo. But oddly, you seem to be preoccupied with it.

[DarrinS]

No, I'm asking why Israel doesn't allow crayons.

Do you know?


Probably just to be big bad meanies, unlike the mother in that photo.

[ChumpDumper]

Probably just to be big bad meaniesIs this your final answer?

Your serious answer?

[jack sommerset]

http://www.houseofpaine.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/child_suicide_bomber.jpg

Sweet jesus!

[Shastafarian]

No, I'm asking why Israel doesn't allow crayons.

Do you know?


Oren said something to the effect of, "Gaza is a dangerous area run by people whose mission it is to destroy Israel. We send in [so many trucks a day] and didn't feel we were obligated to provide them with things like snack foods."

[admiralsnackbar]

Israel has no dogs?

I don't know enough about detonators to know if they actually contain explosives themselves, or are just superconductors for heat.

Anyway, like I said: it was only a guess. There has to be a reason something as specific as crayons were banned which transcends Israel's desire not to foster young Palestinian artists, though.

[Winehole23]

How about flour and cooking oil and chickpeas?

[Shastafarian]

How about flour and cooking oil and chickpeas?

According to Oren, Israel saw those things as luxuries they aren't obligated to let in. Maybe if Hamas stopped firing rockets and released the soldier they kidnapped 4 years ago, Israel would be more amenable to letting everything through.

[Winehole23]

According to Oren, Israel saw those things as luxuries they aren't obligated to let in.Are they luxuries according to you?

[DarrinS]

At least the young Palestinian kids still have educational TV programs to watch


t3kGYttNhhg

XELcNMhkKCo

gi-c6lbFGC4

[Shastafarian]

Are they luxuries according to you?

In this case I'd say I can't blame Israel for banning them. Flour is probably the biggest of those that might cause problems for the people in Gaza but is it a necessity? Again, maybe if their ELECTED government would stop firing rockets and kidnapping soldiers, they wouldn't have to wait to get flour, cooking oil, and chickpeas. I feel like there's an extreme double standard here. Israel is blasted for imposing a blockade (NO CRAYONS!!! The HORROR!) but no one cares that Hamas fires rockets TO KILL CIVILIANS and kidnaps soldiers. If you know anything about the military in Israel, you know that many soldiers are 18-20 years old. They're kids. But hey, it's cool. I mean, how bad could 4 years be without letting the Red Cross or anyone else see you. I'm sure he's fine.

[Winehole23]

There's about 600,000 Gazans who didn't vote for the Hamas. Did they all deserve to get shit on too?

[Shastafarian]

There's about 600,000 Gazans who didn't vote for the Hamas. Did they all deserve to get shit on too?

Do they deserve it? No. But if they want things to change they need to make it happen whether it's through the press or through politics.

[Winehole23]

But hey, it's cool. I mean, how bad could 4 years be without letting the Red Cross or anyone else see you. I'm sure he's fine.I get it. It's fucking serious. I hope Gilad Shalit survives and thrives.

But let's get past the the conceit that anybody has clean hands here.

[Shastafarian]

I get it. It's fucking serious. I hope Gilad Shalit survives and thrives.

But let's get past the the conceit that anybody has clean hands here.

I've never claimed anyone has clean hands but no one ever talks about the other side. People care so much about the Palestinian suffering. Let's bring them aid and provoke the Israelis instead of working towards a solution. The first step towards a solution is getting Hamas out of power. But no one (seemingly) cares.

[Winehole23]

BTW, your stance that flour and cooking oil are luxuries is borderline unhinged.

[Winehole23]

It's so obviously wrong I have a hard time seeing how it could possibly be right.

[Shastafarian]

Why is it so obviously wrong? Do you need oil to cook things?

[Winehole23]

The first step towards a solution is getting Hamas out of power. But no one (seemingly) cares.Toward this end, any means at all will do, correct?

Isn't it just possible that the severity of the blockade and related security measures props up the adversary, inspires its recruits and radicalizes the beseiged?

[Winehole23]

Why is it so obviously wrong? Do you need oil to cook things?Go away with yourself. That's crazy talk.

[Shastafarian]

Toward this end, any means at all will do, correct?

Isn't it just possible that the severity of the blockade and related security measures props up the adversary, inspires its recruits and radicalizes the beseiged?

I'll follow up your question with a question of my own. If Israel were to eliminate the blockade, do you think the people in Gaza would cease their attacks?

[Winehole23]

Do they deserve it? No. But if they want things to change they need to make it happen whether it's through the press or through politics.
It's their own damn fault.

[Winehole23]

I'll follow up your question with a question of my own. If Israel were to eliminate the blockade, do you think the people in Gaza would cease their attacks?I doubt it.

[Shastafarian]

Go away with yourself. That's crazy talk.

Crazy talk for a crazy situation. I really don't blame them for restrictions on something that can be used as an accelerant.

[ChumpDumper]

I've never claimed anyone has clean hands but no one ever talks about the other side.:lmao

No one?

Really?

That's your position?

[Shastafarian]

I doubt it.

Would the attacks cease or diminish if Hamas was out of power?

[Winehole23]

But lodging responsibility with "the people of Gaza" is a bit vague semantically. Does that mean everybody? Or just some of them?

[ChumpDumper]

I'll follow up your question with a question of my own. If Israel were to eliminate the blockade, do you think the people in Gaza would cease their attacks?Is the flour blockade causing them to cease their attacks?

[Shastafarian]

:lmao

No one?

Really?

That's your position?

Hey welcome to the discussion. Glad you could contribute so much. Maybe I should have just said, "people like ChumpDumper" instead of "no one".

[Winehole23]

Would the attacks cease or diminish if Hamas was out of power?There's no telling. With Hamas no longer in the picture, something even worse could rise to fill the political vacuum.

[ChumpDumper]

Hey welcome to the discussion. Glad you could contribute so much. Maybe I should have just said, "people like ChumpDumper" instead of "no one".Hamas shoots rockets at Israel.

This is true.

How does restricting flour stop that?

[Winehole23]

Which is to say, I doubt that too.

[Shastafarian]

But lodging responsibility with "the people of Gaza" is a bit vague semantically. Does that mean everybody? Or just some of them?

I'm not talking about the people in terms of the entire populace no. I'm talking about Hamas and its followers + any people who think violence is a solution.

[Winehole23]

BTW, what's the status of the cease fire? Is there still one?

[Shastafarian]

I believe attacks have declined since the blockade was implemented.

[Shastafarian]

I don't like Netanyahu anymore than the next guy but it doesn't look like there will be a vote of no confidence. The Israeli people will have to vote him out at the next election if they want any semblance of peace. Unfortunately they also have to rely on the corresponding Palestinian leadership to seek peace.

[Shastafarian]

We can definitely count on Palestinian leadership going by past events (see: Arafat at Camp David in 2000).

[Winehole23]

I'll follow up your question with a question of my own. If Israel were to eliminate the blockade, do you think the people in Gaza would cease their attacks?
http://www.nataliedee.com/012109/ducking-incoming-balls.jpg

Did you just duck, Shasta?

[Shastafarian]

The blockade creates animosity but it also reduces (I think) attacks on Israel's population. The circle of life in the Middle East.

[Winehole23]

That's the argument from expedience. If your mind comes to a full stop there that's a personal choice. It's ok to be one sided.

[ChumpDumper]

The blockade creates animosity but it also reduces (I think) attacks on Israel's population. The circle of life in the Middle East.Not sure about that.


The year 2008 saw a dramatic increase in the extent of HAMAS rocket fire and mortar attacks on Israel, with a total of 3,278 rockets and mortar shells landing in Israeli territory (1,750 rockets and 1,528 mortar shells). These numbers are double those of 2007 and 2006, years which marked a five-fold increase over prior years.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-qassam.htm

There are wiki articles with lists of attacks by year, but no readily available totals.

[Shastafarian]

That's the argument from expedience. If your mind comes to a full stop there that's a personal choice. It's ok to be one sided.

Do you see yourself as one sided? Before I brought it up, had you ever mentioned the Israeli Soldier that was kidnapped or what the rocket attacks do to the southern Israeli population?

[Shastafarian]

Not sure about that.



http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-qassam.htm

There are wiki articles with lists of attacks by year, but no readily available totals.

I'd like to see totals from 2009. I think if there was any decline in attacks it would have shown most prominently in 2009 after Hamas started running out of supplies (assuming the blockade was working). Going by numbers from May 10th, they had seemingly decreased. Only 50 from the beginning of 2010 to May 10th.

[Winehole23]

Do you see yourself as one sided? Before I brought it up, had you ever mentioned the Israeli Soldier that was kidnapped or what the rocket attacks do to the southern Israeli population?I did mention the rockets, yes. If not in this thread, I recently did in another. I characterized the number of rockets fired as a "double-assload."

[ChumpDumper]

I'd like to see totals from 2009. I think if there was any decline in attacks it would have shown most prominently in 2009 after Hamas started running out of supplies (assuming the blockade was working). Going by numbers from May 10th, they had seemingly decreased. Only 50 from the beginning of 2010 to May 10th.So if the blockade was to prevent the flow for missile and mortar supplies, why flour?

[Shastafarian]

So if the blockade was to prevent the flow for missile and mortar supplies, why flour?

That's a question for the Israeli Govt. to answer since anything I say will be pure speculation.

[Winehole23]

The circumstances plead to moral conscience regardless of the legalities and conventions of the situation.

The blockade is wrong.

[Yonivore]

xFrMGINCXiw


Impossible-to-Answer Question #1: What’s the connection between a hungry Palestinian population and keeping weapons out of the hands of Hamas? I know Israel says it’s letting in enough food in to prevent a humanitarian crisis, but UN officials have called the situation "grim," "deteriorating" and a "medieval siege." A bare minimum of 400 truckloads of goods needs to enter Gaza per week, and an average of 171 get in. According to the World Health Organization, one in 10 Gazans suffer from “chronic malnutrition,” and the UN says six in 10 Gaza households are "food insecure."
It's not and "Impossible-to-Answer Question." The connection between a hungry Palestinian population and keeping weapons out of the hands of Hamas is that Hamas rules the Palestinian People.

That's the connection.

Monetary aid is converted to weapons by Hamas.

Tangible aid is diverted by Hamas to cronies or withheld as punishment/meted out as reward.

Where does the billion dollars in aid go? Where does the aid Israel allows through the blockade go?

[ChumpDumper]

Where does the billion dollars in aid go? Where does the aid Israel allows through the blockade go?Palestinians eat the food and use the medicine.

It's not like there are just ten people in need there.

[ChuckD]

Palestinians eat the food and use the medicine.

It's not like there are just ten people in need there.

(I don't think Yoni knows that there are 1.5 MILLION people in Gaza.)

[jack sommerset]

Palestinians eat the food and use the medicine.

It's not like there are just ten people in need there.

Do they also use the weapons?

[ChumpDumper]

Do they also use the weapons?The vast majority do not, though the embargo seems to be increasing the number of those who would choose to.

Is that Israel's goal?

[Yonivore]

(I don't think Yoni knows that there are 1.5 MILLION people in Gaza.)
What do they do with the money we send them?

What does Israel do with the humanitarian aid they divert from flotillas? I hear they send it on to Gaza once it's determined to be strictly humanitarian.

[jack sommerset]

The vast majority do not, though the embargo seems to be increasing the number of those who would choose to.

Is that Israel's goal?

So you're cool with some of them using weapons to kill innocent people in Israel.

[ChumpDumper]

What do they do with the money we send them?Google is your friend. Use it.


What does Israel do with the humanitarian aid they divert from flotillas? I hear they send it on to Gaza once it's determined to be strictly humanitarian.Unless there are crayons or candy.