Is Phil Jackson being outcoached?

[ChrisRichards]

It seems that way to me. Doc Rivers is NOT a great coach, but he's a great motivator and when he talks with his greasy face the Celtics players listen no matter how corny and how cliche his statements are.


For the first time, Im actually questioning Jackson's ability to will his team. Im one of those who believes that PJ's 10 titles did'nt come by luck by having Michael Jordan and Shaq, but the soon to be 3 losses in the Finals against great defensive teams (Pistons and Boston) is making me wonder all along that Jackson's non chalant and relaxed attitiude is not working for the younger generation of players. In Chicago during their 1st 3 peat win, Jackson always had that fire. He was your typical coach trying to prove something. If you watch Michael Jordan Videos in the 90's, Jackson is sweating, animated and is loud as hell. Eversince the second three peat in Chicago and LA's three peat this decade, his approach has totally changed. Granted it worked for him, but he had the ultimate motivator in Jordan and the MDE player in Shaq against weak Eastern Conference teams.


I think right now, too much blame goes to the players. However deserving, I believe Jackson has a lot of faults too. From his questionable substitution patterns to his miscommunication with the players on the floor. Remember that play when Doc Rivers run and jumped into the court to get Rondo's attention to call for a timeout saving the Celtics from an 8 second violation? Jackson does'nt have that. I know his semi crippled, but he has shown numerous times to stand up from the bench, there are other ways to fire your team. For the first time since Larry Brown's Piston's annihilated the Lakers, Im blaming the Lakers coaching staff for not calling it as it is. They sure could use Tex Winters berating Jackson for every questionable coaching decision right about now.

[Giuseppe]

:rolleyes

[JamStone]

Slow your role, Hates McGowen.

This would undermine your theories on Kobe killing the team.

Wouldn't want to do that.

[TheManFromAcme]

It seems that way to me. Doc Rivers is NOT a great coach, but he's a great motivator and when he talks with his greasy face the Celtics players listen no matter how corny and how cliche his statements are.


For the first time, Im actually questioning Jackson's ability to will his team. Im one of those who believes that PJ's 10 titles did'nt come by luck by having Michael Jordan and Shaq, but the soon to be 3 losses in the Finals against great defensive teams (Pistons and Boston) is making me wonder all along that Jackson's non chalant and relaxed attitiude is not working for the younger generation of players. In Chicago during their 1st 3 peat win, Jackson always had that fire. He was your typical coach trying to prove something. If you watch Michael Jordan Videos in the 90's, Jackson is sweating, animated and is loud as hell. Eversince the second three peat in Chicago and LA's three peat this decade, his approach has totally changed. Granted it worked for him, but he had the ultimate motivator in Jordan and the MDE player in Shaq against weak Eastern Conference teams.


I think right now, too much blame goes to the players. However deserving, I believe Jackson has a lot of faults too. From his questionable substitution patterns to his miscommunication with the players on the floor. Remember that play when Doc Rivers run and jumped into the court to get Rondo's attention to call for a timeout saving the Celtics from an 8 second violation? The Lakers coaching staff just does'nt seem to care and for the first time since Larry Brown's Piston's annihilated the Lakers, Im blaming the Lakers coaching staff for not calling it as it is. They sure could use Tex Winters berating Jackson for every questionable coaching decision right about now.

This.
Maybe not all but that last comment is resounding to anyone who knows what Tex brought to the table. LG.net has some interesting dialogue regarding Phi's weaknesses that may not suit well with Phil a$$ kissers. I love Phil but clearly something is lacking with his reasoning skills.

[Giuseppe]

Jammie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The smartest man alive!

[ChrisRichards]

Slow your role, Hates McGowen.

This would undermine your theories on Kobe killing the team.

Wouldn't want to do that.
Trolling aside, Kobe's not killing the team in this series. He's been very good with the exception of Game 2. Game 1 was superb, Game 3 was commendable, 4 was very good and 5 was excellent.

[JamStone]

Trolling aside, Kobe's not killing the team in this series. He's been very good with the exception of Game 2. Game 1 was superb, Game 3 was commendable, 4 was very good and 5 was excellent.

Color me with shock and awe.

Who knew you could rationalize?

[Giuseppe]

Color me with shock and awe.

Who knew you could rationalize?

And without an Award no less. I think your smartness is rubbing off, Jammie.

[ChrisRichards]

Seriously, what do you think about /jacksons coaching in this series? Is he failing or are his players failing him?

Is Doc showing his X and O;s are plain and simple better than Jackson?

[JamStone]

The series hasn't hinged on X's and O's strategy.

It's no coincidence that the team that has won the rebounding war has won every game this series. And more importantly, Boston pulled down rebounds at critical times. That's a product of hustle and effort. The team that has played harder has won.

Plus, there is no strategy Phil Jackson can employ to tell Pau Gasol to grow some balls or Ron Artest to find a brain. This isn't Oz.

Doc Rivers isn't that great a motivator. I don't even think his players really listen to him. But they have been playing harder in the games they've won. I don't attribute that to Doc's motivational prowess or coaching. Doc's even had a couple of gaffs coaching wise late in games. The Celtics are up in the series despite them.

[Mel_13]

The series hasn't hinged on X's and O's strategy.

It's no coincidence that the team that has won the rebounding war has won every game this series. And more importantly, Boston pulled down rebounds at critical times. That's a product of hustle and effort. The team that has played harder has won.

Plus, there is no strategy Phil Jackson can employ to tell Pau Gasol to grow some balls or Ron Artest to find a brain. This isn't Oz.

Doc Rivers isn't that great a motivator. I don't even think his players really listen to him. But they have been playing harder in the games they've won. I don't attribute that to Doc's motivational prowess or coaching. Doc's even had a couple of gaffs coaching wise late in games. The Celtics are up in the series despite them.

:lmao

[Giuseppe]

:lmao

You got an Award? This is f'ing BS. HTF did you get one, Mel? This is a f'in outrage.

[Mel_13]

You got an Award? This is f'ing BS. HTF did you get one, Mel? This is a f'in outrage.

:lmao

I have to admit that this current incarnation of Cully is good for some laughs, much better than the most recent version.

[Giuseppe]

:lmao

I have to admit that this current incarnation of Cully is good for some laughs, much better than the most recent version.

"Oh yeah, laugh at the fat kid."

"Vern" - "Stand by Me"

[ChrisRichards]

Look fellas, Hall and Oates in actions...

[Giuseppe]

Look fellas, Hall and Oates in actions...

As per usual, Cubby settin' the trends.

I still got it. Old as fuck, but, still leadin' the way on a Board.

[ChrisRichards]

As per usual, Cubby settin' the trends.

I still got it. Old as fuck, but, still leadin' the way on a Board.
:toast

[ChrisRichards]

I still think Jackson is losing it. 1-3 on his last 4 Finals trips after the Jordan/MDE Shaq era is telling us something...

[fevertrees]

it doesn't take much to out coach a game plan of "just pass the ball to Kobe and let him chuck up whatever idiotic shot attempts he wants"

[Cane]

I began to have doubts about Jackson and LA after it taking two games to make the adjustment to have Kobe guard Westbrook. Jackson also gambled back a game or two where he basically didn't rest Kobe for the entire second half. Also questionable to play Kobe as many minutes as he did throughout the season since he looked fatigued by the end of the regular season and doesn't seem to make three point plays in the paint during the playoffs...at least not as much as he should be.

LA's still got a chance to even the series but adjustments have to be made and players are going to have to show up which they should at home.

[Giuseppe]

I began to have doubts about Jackson and LA after it taking two games to make the adjustment to have Kobe guard Westbrook. Jackson also gambled back a game or two where he basically didn't rest Kobe for the entire second half. Also questionable to play Kobe as many minutes as he did throughout the season since he looked fatigued by the end of the regular season and doesn't seem to make three point plays in the paint during the playoffs...at least not as much as he should be.

LA's still got a chance to even the series but adjustments have to be made and players are going to have to show up which they should at home.

The Westbrook strategy was sound. There was less a chance of response and adjustment by Brooks if Jackson went late. The risk was minimal as long as we maintained the home court, which we had.

And I don't blame Jackson for going to the whip on minutes. The bench is toxic, to brazen it out to placate "you" & Media is reckless.

[TDMVPDPOY]

just phil being phil

[LnGrrrR]

The only real place where I think Doc has outcoached PJ is in knowing when to call TO's, which I think is important. Doc seems to call timeout right when I want him to, which he didn't do in '08. I've seen moments where I think the Lakers should have called TO but didn't. (I thought PJ did quite well in this area last game.)

[duncan228]

Who has outcoached Doc Rivers? (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/16726/who-has-outcoached-doc-rivers)
By Henry Abbott

One win from a title, overseeing a team many called too old and too emotional to make it past the first round, Doc Rivers might be doing a coaching job for the ages.

But because his team had a weak finish to the regular season, he has no shot of being considered the NBA’s best coach of this season.

I remember being a guest on a radio show just before the playoffs. We were talking about who should win coach of the year. Scott Brooks made a lot of sense to me -- can you remember seeing one of the league’s youngest teams also its most defensively disciplined? That has to be good coaching.

There was a case to be made for Nate McMillan, in my mind, too. 50 wins does not set the world on fire, but it’s outstanding coming from the team with by far the most injuries in the league. The Blazers are a young team that played much of the season without any centers at all, and was forced to devote long minutes to players like Juwan Howard and Jeff Pendergraph who were never expected to be part of the rotation.

The host made a strong case for Alvin Gentry. The Suns play beautiful basketball with a nice, harmonious locker room. The Phoenix coaching staff skillfully teased tremendous production players other teams didn’t value all that much, including Jared Dudley, Channing Frye, Goran Dragic and Robin Lopez.

We were assessing coaching accomplishments with the assumption that the regular season was enough to judge on. That’s how the coach of the year award works -- the voting was almost done by the time we were talking. It’s a regular season award.

But of course, kicking some regular season butt is child’s play compared to what the “big boy” coaches do. People like Gregg Popovich, Phil Jackson, Stan Van Gundy and Doc Rivers coach all season with the playoffs in mind. That may even mean giving up regular season wins, for instance by sitting a key player, to make sure the team is ready for the playoffs.

The best coaching of the year happens in the playoffs, which is why it’s strange that the best coach is picked before they begin.

Rivers didn’t even come up in that radio conversation. The Celtics were a 50-win team just like Portland, but they had not had Portland’s string of injuries. Instead, they had a title-winning roster from two years ago that apparently just wasn’t as good anymore. There were whispers they’d lose to the Heat in the first round.

But in reality, Rivers was pulling off an amazing act of long-term strategy.

He had seen his team early in the season. They leapt out to an incredibly hot start. 23-5 at Christmas, he liked what he saw (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-celticsfinals052910), and resolved they were going to make noise.

Then he set about managing them with the Finals in mind.

There were plenty of obstacles to maneuver around. Kevin Garnett’s knee was a concern. Paul Pierce and Ray Allen could use as much rest as he could get them, and Rajon Rondo (a bit injury prone himself) was blossoming into a bigger role -- the kind of thing that can stress teammates who would have to accommodate him.

Meanwhile, the team has long had to cope with the reality that the vast majority of their cap space is tied up by the big names, which means the roster would be filled out with an oddball collection of role players who would work cheaply, by NBA standards.

It is a roster of aging stars, Rajon Rondo, Kendrick Perkins and compromises.

As his name suggests, Glen “Big Baby” Davis was at once both too little and too big, and for much of this season -- too injured. Mike D’Antoni had concluded that Nate Robinson was essentially uncoachable, and had benched him for most of December, even though the Knicks were desperate for inspired guard play. Athletic, but recovering from injury, Tony Allen had not been a model citizen off the court and lacked polish on it.

One of the more stable personalities on the team is the poster child for uncoachable NBA players: Rasheed Wallace, who is notorious for tossing towels at teammates, screaming at anyone and everyone and working himself into a frenzy when confronted by referees.

This is the team Rivers was managing. With peaking for the playoffs as the main priority, regular season wins became tough to find. The Celtics limped home winning just half of their last 54 games regular-season games, finishing as a 50-win team. Fans were calling for Rivers' head. But in retrospect that was a poor time of year to judge the Celtics, who proved to be a far better team that had been strategic in taking something of a break through much of the spring.

Doc Rivers has great credibility. He’s a former player with a tremendous baritone voice and more than a few war stories to tell with it. He’s got a mind curious enough to implement Tom Thibodeau's adventurous defensive rotations, and his Celtics embrace many aspects of the stat geek revolution. He has plenty of alpha dog presence -- you wouldn’t want to let him down, nor piss him off -- but at the same time he’s always ready to make a self-deprecating joke, and he does not sweat the small stuff.

Wallace and Robinson have brought other coaches to their knees, but they both speak in relaxed and positive terms about Rivers. Players and coaches -- like old married couples – often carry some resentments. But that’s not evident in this case.

His simple message, which he repeats in nearly every timeout, is that the Celtics know they are the better team, so long as they play together. He is attempting to extinguish players’ thoughts of breaking the offense to go on heroic scoring binges, or of losing focus in the complex defensive scheme.

Is his the right approach?

Given the challenges surrounding this team, it’s hard to say any other NBA coach has been better this season, and it’s abundantly clear the coach of the year voting comes too early to be meaningful.

[baseline bum]

Slow your role, Hates McGowen.

This would undermine your theories on Kobe killing the team.

Wouldn't want to do that.

:lol

[Veterinarian]

And without an Award no less. I think your smartness is rubbing off, Jammie.

Actually downgrading Jordan and making a case that Kobe compares to him like Jamstone habitually does is idiocy, not smartness. But what do you know? You troll at a pre-school level.

[Giuseppe]

Actually downgrading Jordan and making a case that Kobe compares to him like Jamstone habitually does is idiocy, not smartness. But what do you know? You troll at a pre-school level.

Bryant does compare to Jordan, and if he rings Thursday night he'll be right behind MJ on the same stage.

[jacobdrj]

I think that, in this rare, unbelievable case, yes, Doc Rivers, of all people, is actually out coaching Phil Jackson...

Where Doc is using his bench without reservation, calling timely time outs occasionally preventing big runs, while Phil is coaching like a regular season game... It is astounding...

[ezau]

Bryant isn't even the greatest Laker ever, so he'll never be at par with MJ

[Giuseppe]

Bryant isn't even the greatest Laker ever, so he'll never be at par with MJ

If Bryant rings Thursday innin', he passes Magic and squeezes in belly button to ass crack with MJ.

[Vertical]

in 5 games yep

[ezau]

If Bryant rings Thursday innin', he passes Magic and squeezes in belly button to ass crack with MJ.

If.

[Giuseppe]

If.

Never claimed otherwise.

[Man In Black]

If Bryant rings Thursday innin', he passes Magic and squeezes in belly button to ass crack with MJ.

Ain't going to happen unless you bitches yet again, rail to try to make it so. It's like self-proclamation. Just because you say it, doesn't make it so. Shaq saying he was MDE has been proven that he wasn't, even if he said so.

You have to do it, every time and again. In Bean's case, what Jordan has accomplished, cannot be done by Bean.

Jordan went undefeated.

Jordan went 6 wins, no defeats in Finals History. Kobe's already lost 2 times and both times, he was to blame. Add that the 2nd loss includes the WORST FINALS LOSS IN HISTORY. And there you have it....placement behind MJ23 & MJ32(Since Magic beat the Celtics, twice., just like that.

You may now continue with your regularly scheduled drive. :hat

[cobbler]

Trolling aside, Kobe's not killing the team in this series. He's been very good with the exception of Game 2. Game 1 was superb, Game 3 was commendable, 4 was very good and 5 was excellent.

WOW.... *pulling myself off the floor*

Just wow!

[ChrisRichards]

WOW.... *pulling myself off the floor*

Just wow!
Kobe is averaging 30 points with 55.5% TSP which is higher than both the Lakers and Celtics true shooting percentage in the whole series. I mean there's really not a lot of room to hate on him besides his massive turnover rate. He's also doing this against Boston's defense. Sometimes you just have to tip your hat. I still think Gasol's value is more than that of Kobe though, and its showing in this series. When Gasol has a great game, the rest of the Lakers offense flows much better. You really cant say the same for Kobe's game TBH. Kobe's a tremendous, skilled shot maker, the best in his generation but the overall impact is not impressive because when he's playing at that level, you know the rest of his teammates are running dry.

[JamStone]

I think there are two ways of looking at Gasol's importance that kind of splits the divide.

Some argue that Gasol is more important to the Lakers success. That statement alone is more credible than the other one I think people try to claim, which is Gasol is the MVP of the Lakers.

The first comment is much more credible because when Gasol plays well, the Lakers are a much stronger team. The second comment about Gasol being the MVP of the Lakers is horseshit because Gasol will often put up vagina-like performances. His inconsistency and his lack of will to challenge the Boston front court is a major reason the Lakers are down in the series. You know what you're going to get from Kobe. You know he's not going to cower. You know he's not going to fold. He may lose. He may miss shots. But he's not going to turn into a pussy bitch like Gasol sometimes will. That's why there's no way in hell Gasol is the MVP of the Lakers. More important for Laker success? Sure. MVP of the Lakers? No way in hell.

[Giuseppe]

Professor Jamstone, getting his Tuesday morning lecture on.

[Killakobe81]

I think there are two ways of looking at Gasol's importance that kind of splits the divide.

Some argue that Gasol is more important to the Lakers success. That statement alone is more credible than the other one I think people try to claim, which is Gasol is the MVP of the Lakers.
The first comment is much more credible because when Gasol plays well, the Lakers are a much stronger team. The second comment about Gasol being the MVP of the Lakers is horseshit because Gasol will often put up vagina-like performances. His inconsistency and his lack of will to challenge the Boston front court is a major reason the Lakers are down in the series. You know what you're going to get from Kobe. You know he's not going to cower. You know he's not going to fold. He may lose. He may miss shots. But he's not going to turn into a pussy bitch like Gasol sometimes will. That's why there's no way in hell Gasol is the MVP of the Lakers. More important for Laker success? Sure. MVP of the Lakers? No way in hell.


amen Jamstone. Couldnt of said it better myself. I knew my vote for you on Allspurs was a good one ...LOL JK.

Point is when people make those idiotic statements they just prove how little they know about ball.

You could use Jamstone points with many other players.

Would i rather have manu's explosive but increasingly rare 25 5 5 games or Tim's career steady 20, 10, 4 and 2 games?

I bet when Manu score 25 the Spurs record is amazing but Tim's consistency is more important to the team and the franchise.

[silverblk mystix]

stupid question---rivers is the better coach.

Give rivers--the lakers talent, biased reffing and collusion (ok--extreme collusion...:lol) and he wins 3-5 titles in a row...

PJ, on the other hand, needs a bunch of other shit to happen (Yao's injury,jameer's injury, manu's inj,etc.)..and he is on the verge of losing 2 out of three finals series in 3 years

[Giuseppe]

^Spoken like a true San Antonio Celtic's fan.

[silverblk mystix]

^Spoken like a true San Antonio Celtic's fan.

ummm..how many times are you gonna use that line?

gettin a little scared about tonight, are we?:lol:lol

[Giuseppe]

ummm..how many times are you gonna use that line?

gettin a little scared about tonight, are we?:lol:lol

Until somebody asks for mercy.

---

A course. I ain't ashamed of being scared.

[z0sa]

San Antonio Celtic's fan

:lmao :lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin :rollin:lol:rollin:rollin

[TheManFromAcme]

Historically speaking;

There was a nice Irish constituency defending the Alamo so perhaps there is something to the "San Antonio Celtic" claim.

Just sayin....

[spursfaninla]

I don't understand why people try to compare Kobe's 4 (perhaps 5 or even 6 eventually) to MJ's 6. Not in the same ballpark for simple reasons:

1) MJ was the CLEAR alpha dog on all his championships.
2) Once he broke through, the only seasons he failed in the playoffs were due to his playing BASEBALL INSTEAD.
3) two 3-peats.

Kobe?
1) one three-peat. If he gets another three-peat, then start talking.
2) Was alpha on 1, MAYBE 2 of those wins so far. Shaq was at least as important in 3.

Kobe is all-time great player, but not in the top 10 and not the main cause of the majority of his championships like MJ was.

[Giuseppe]

Regardless, if Kobe wins Thursday night, he'll immediately rise to MJ level and move in directly behind MJ.

[tdunk21]

Regardless, if Kobe wins Thursday night, he'll immediately rise to MJ level and move in directly behind MJ.

:lmao:lmao

MJ : 6x NBA champ, 5x NBA MVP, 14x All star, 1 NBA DPOY, 6x NBA finals MVP

[Giuseppe]

:lmao:lmao

MJ : 6x NBA champ, 5x NBA MVP, 14x All star, 1 NBA DPOY,

Nonetheless, if he rings Thursday, he's a millimeter behind MJ.

[tdunk21]

Nonetheless, if he rings Thursday, he's a millimeter behind MJ.

thanx for a very good laugh...u made my day....:rollin

[Giuseppe]

thanx for a very good laugh...u made my day....:rollin

No, your day will be made if your San Antonio Celtics win this evening.

[Man In Black]

Regardless, if Kobe wins Thursday night, he'll immediately rise to MJ level and move in directly behind MJ.

Just because you say it...it doesn't make it so. UNDEFEATED. That's MJ. Kobe responsible for 2 Finals Losses. Magic has 3 finals losses but those losses are to Bird & MJ & Doc and against Bird...he has 2 wins.

So again, he ain't undefeated, he has never beat the Celtics to date, and he doesn't deserve the placement you Beansuckers like to place him at...prematurely. But, I understand....you guys are good at premature stuff.

[mingus]

i don't know why people always say, "Doc isn't a good coach, he's a good motivator." that is dumb. part of being a coach is being a motivator. a big part of it, in fact. i think he's the most underrated coach in the league. his hiding of the money will be historic if the Celtcs win this series. that was great.

EDIT: and, btw, WTF was Thibadeou or what ever his fucked up name is before being on Doc's bench?

[xellos88330]

X's and O's. I don't think he is. Motivating players, yes.