Looks like it is finally happening

[Drachen]

A challenge to the current interpretation of the 14th amendment. I do like the idea of this bill, but it will likely be shot down as unconstitutional.


(CNN) -- A proposed Arizona law would deny birth certificates to children born in the United States to illegal immigrant parents.

The bill comes on the heels of Arizona passing the nation's toughest immigration law.

John Kavanagh, a Republican state representative from Arizona who supports the proposed law aimed at so-called "anchor babies," said that the concept does not conflict with the U.S. Constitution.

"If you go back to the original intent of the drafters ... it was never intended to bestow citizenship upon (illegal) aliens," said Kavanagh, who also supported Senate Bill 1070 -- the law that gave Arizona authorities expanded immigration enforcement powers.

Under federal law, children born in the United States are automatically granted citizenship, regardless of their parents' residency status.

Kyrsten Sinema, a Democratic state representative, strongly opposes the bill.

"Unlike (Senate Bill) 1070, it is clear this bill runs immediately afoul of the U.S. Constitution," she said.

"While I understand that folks in Arizona and across the country support S.B. 1070, they do so because we have seen no action from the federal government," said Sinema. "Unfortunately, the so-called 'anchor baby' bill does nothing to solve the real problems we are facing in Arizona."

Arizona Republicans are expected to introduce the legislation this fall.

[EVAY]

Isn't it manifestly unconstitutional?

Non-starter?

[boutons_deux]

When can states pass state laws that override the Constitution?

When can states grant/revoke US citizenship?

Any state that has Sharron Angle as a candidate is one fucked up state.

Meanwhile, McLiar declares himslef the unMaverick and flip flops on every single position he has ever taken in desperation to keep his Senate seat. A principled man. McCain-Feingold anyone? :lol

[jack sommerset]

Good law.

[balli]

This is wonderful. They won't have US birth certificates. Since they weren't born anywhere else, they won't have any other birth certificates. It's like we get to treat these demon hispanic babies like they aren't even people. How moral.

[DarrinS]

They just don't like brown people.

-the left

[Stringer_Bell]

For a long time, illegal immigrants have been rewarded for beating the system. The women cross the border 9 months pregnant to have the child and stay in our country. I'd like to see statistics on what they contribute to the rest of the country or if we simply support them through social problems. Let's get some facts out instead of reducing the arguments to racism.

Also, is the 14th amendment created explicitly to be used by illegal immigrants in the way it has been or was it designed to help blacks during the Reconstruction?

[Drachen]

Well I guess that is what they plan to do. They KNOW there will be a constitutional challenge if they pass this law, so perhaps they are trying to create a scenario in which it will have to go to court for challenge. Maybe they feel confident about their chances.

[George Gervin's Afro]

This is wonderful. They won't have US birth certificates. Since they weren't born anywhere else, they won't have any other birth certificates. It's like we get to treat these demon hispanic babies like they aren't even people. How moral.

conservatives don't care about illegal babies..

[Drachen]

conservatives don't care about illegal babies..

Removing incentive may stop 9 month pregnant women from making a harrowing journey across the desert to give birth. Additionally, they can retain their Mexican citizenship.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Removing incentive may stop 9 month pregnant women from making a harrowing journey accross the desert to give birth. Additionally, they can retain their Mexican citizenship.

why don't we reduce the incentive for anyone to come over? Let's start jailing people who hire the illegals! I'm serious... COnservatives want to punish the people coming over while ignoring the businesses who hire them.. if your serious about solving the illegal immigration problem it probably would be a good idea to take the incentive away.. A novel concept I know

[Drachen]

why don't we reduce the incentive for anyone to come over? Let's start jailing people who hire the illegals! I'm serious... COnservatives want to punish the people coming over while ignoring the businesses who hire them.. if your serious about solving the illegal immigration problem it probably would be a good idea to take the incentive away.. A novel concept I know

I wholeheartedly agree. I just think that "both" is a better option than "one".

[Stringer_Bell]

why don't we reduce the incentive for anyone to come over? Let's start jailing people who hire the illegals! I'm serious... COnservatives want to punish the people coming over while ignoring the businesses who hire them.. if your serious about solving the illegal immigration problem it probably would be a good idea to take the incentive away.. A novel concept I know

:rollin

Then where do meat packing and other industry plants get their cheap workforce from? THOSE illegals are actually putting in work and the industry just gives names/addresses to law enforcement to arrest a few at a time instead of raiding the plants. There's only a limited amount of plants in the whole country, if you screw with one and take out 1/2 their workforce then the whole country suffers.

[Wild Cobra]

Isn't it manifestly unconstitutional?

Non-starter?
I would say it's not unconstitutional. We've discussed this before idea before. I will probably stay out of this debate rather than arguing the same points again, I'll probably just see how it plays out.

[Wild Cobra]

This is wonderful. They won't have US birth certificates. Since they weren't born anywhere else, they won't have any other birth certificates. It's like we get to treat these demon hispanic babies like they aren't even people. How moral.
Mexico allows US born of Mexican women, citizenship without question. I don't know about other countries. Remember, they aren't all Mexican.

[Wild Cobra]

why don't we reduce the incentive for anyone to come over? Let's start jailing people who hire the illegals! I'm serious... COnservatives want to punish the people coming over while ignoring the businesses who hire them.. if your serious about solving the illegal immigration problem it probably would be a good idea to take the incentive away.. A novel concept I know
That has been my primary argument all along. If you deny them the ability to find work, deny them most social services, they will go home on their own accord.

[ChumpDumper]

So conservatives are hoping for an activist judge to make new law.

[LnGrrrR]

It's unconstitutional. As WC well knows, this specific issue was discussed by the very same Congress that passed the bill in question. The idea of birth to illegal immigrants was brought up, and whether or not to disallow these children. Since it obviously wasn't included in the bill, those voting on it agreed that children of illegal immigrants should be allowed citizenship.

It's going to take a Constitutional Amendment to change it.

[LnGrrrR]

Also, is the 14th amendment created explicitly to be used by illegal immigrants in the way it has been or was it designed to help blacks during the Reconstruction?

I did the research in another thread, but that instance was brought up way back when they were debating the 14th Amendment. Of course, they used "gypsies" back then instead of hispanics, but the specifics of the situation were the same.

[George Gervin's Afro]

It's unconstitutional. As WC well knows, this specific issue was discussed by the very same Congress that passed the bill in question. The idea of birth to illegal immigrants was brought up, and whether or not to disallow these children. Since it obviously wasn't included in the bill, those voting on it agreed that children of illegal immigrants should be allowed citizenship.

It's going to take a Constitutional Amendment to change it.

Well WC is stict constructionist who doesn't like activist judges so short of an amendment his side is f*cked.

[TheProfessor]

So conservatives are hoping for an activist judge to make new law.
Pretty much. This is inherently unconstitutional, I cannot see the SC ruling otherwise.

[Stringer_Bell]

I did the research in another thread, but that instance was brought up way back when they were debating the 14th Amendment. Of course, they used "gypsies" back then instead of hispanics, but the specifics of the situation were the same.

Cool, I do no research which is why I ask. :p:

I still fail to see why people get all up in arms about it being "unconstitutional" other than the fact that its a state trying to go above the federal guidelines. Why not discuss changing the amendement itself? The founders knew that changes would have to be made as the country matured. They probably did envision a circumstance such as the pursuit of civil rights for blacks and incoming immigrant children, but to have the system taken advantage like this was not something I believe they'd agree with. What is wrong with replacing an outdated amendment with a new amendment to stop something that's obviously cost us more than its helped?

[ChumpDumper]

Has it cost more?

How much?

[DarrinS]

Why do some people only post questions?

[ChumpDumper]

Because the lack of answers speaks volumes.

People like you can't handle it and get all pissy and start complaining.

It is as predictable as it is fun to watch.

No question.

[DarrinS]

Do you know the answer to your own question?

[ChumpDumper]

Do you know the answer to your own question?No.

That's why I asked.

Do you know the answer?

[DarrinS]

Nope.

[ElNono]

How about we secure the border so 9 month pregnant women can't come on over to have their child here?

I know, novel idea!

[jack sommerset]

Why do some people only post questions?

They are generally insecure. They are not sure of their ability to explain their opinions, they think they might be moving in the wrong direction of the topic and/or they think they might lose what ever cred they have gained over the years posting in the same forum.

[jack sommerset]

How about we secure the border so 9 month pregnant women can't come on over to have their child here?

I know, novel idea!

How about we secure our border so that anyone coming over illegal can't. I know, crazy!

[ElNono]

How about we secure our border so that anyone coming over illegal can't. I know, crazy!

Exactly!

But I guess our time and taxes are better spent on passing and fighting through ultimately unconstitutional legislation... :rolleyes

[spursncowboys]

How about we secure the border so 9 month pregnant women can't come on over to have their child here?

I know, novel idea!

100% agree. we shouldn't be making people born in the us non citizens.

[Drachen]

How about we secure our border so that anyone coming over illegal can't. I know, crazy!

Because, and I know this may be difficult to understand, if incentive exists, there is no such thing as a secure border. "Secure border" is a catch phrase that exists so that simpletons who want an easy solution to a complex problem have something to rally around. Don't be fooled however, secure border ONLY exists as a phrase. Ask East Germany if anyone ever got through. Shit people INVENTED stuff to escape. I know, crazy!

[ElNono]

Because, and I know this may be difficult to understand, if incentive exists, there is no such thing as a secure border. "Secure border" is a catch phrase that exists so that simpletons who want an easy solution to a complex problem have something to rally around. Don't be fooled however, secure border ONLY exists as a phrase. Ask East Germany if anyone ever got through. Shit people INVENTED stuff to escape. I know, crazy!

You mean we have technology good enough to track, image and lock on targets to within feets but we can't locate coyotes with groups of a dozen people moving around?

The comparison with East Germany is inane. The GDR was a dying regime that didn't have the economic resources nor technological resources we have. Not to mention that the wall came crumbling down 20 years ago. In technological terms, that's 3 or 4 lifetimes.

Ultimately, there always will be a 'human factor' you can't control. But if you reduce every day occurrences to a bare minimum, then those start to stand out. Unfortunately there's no political will to actually act on this, on either party.

[jack sommerset]

Because, and I know this may be difficult to understand, if incentive exists, there is no such thing as a secure border. "Secure border" is a catch phrase that exists so that simpletons who want an easy solution to a complex problem have something to rally around. Don't be fooled however, secure border ONLY exists as a phrase. Ask East Germany if anyone ever got through. Shit people INVENTED stuff to escape. I know, crazy!



A lock door only keeps the honest people honest. The problem is we don't even lock the goddamn door. Secure the borders, check anyones ID we want, punish people and businesses for helping these illegals. I know this may be hard to understand, if we do all this, not just one of them, they will stop coming over and we will run the ones here back home or to the immiigration office to become legal.

[Winehole23]

A lock door only keeps the honest people honest. The problem is we don't even lock the goddamn door. There isn't any goddam door.

[Winehole23]

Why do some people only post questions?
http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/5/2/633768888725568260-IRONY.jpg

[MiamiHeat]

Is it still unconstitutional if they only add a stipulation to the ammendment?

"Anyone born on US soil is granted natural birth citizenship, unless parent is not a citizen"

what's wrong with adding that? seems logical to me.

[MiamiHeat]

What is wrong with replacing an outdated amendment with a new amendment to stop something that's obviously cost us more than its helped?

This amendment is costing us a lot, too much. Look at California. Among the states with probably the largest amount of illegal aliens....and look at their financial situation now.

I fully support this bill, but there needs to be more done. In regards to employment.

We have to

1) Stop outsourcing

2) Stop the hiring of illegal immigrants

then watch capitalism work it's magic on it's own, adapt to the new and LEGAL system, and after the dust settles, we are better for it.

[ChumpDumper]

They are generally insecure. They are not sure of their ability to explain their opinions, they think they might be moving in the wrong direction of the topic and/or they think they might lose what ever cred they have gained over the years posting in the same forum.Actually I was trying to get someone to back up his contention.

I know that's something you could never do since you are generally insecure and not sure of your ability to explain your opinions. You think you might might be moving in the wrong direction of the topic and/or they think they might lose what ever cred--

--oh, that's right. You never had any.

Too bad you could never answer any questions. Merely bitching about my doing it shows just how insecure and petty you are.

[ChumpDumper]

This amendment is costing us a lot, too much.Post how much it is costing us.

[ChumpDumper]

Nope.No shit.

[ElNono]

What is wrong with replacing an outdated amendment with a new amendment?

Nothing wrong with it. It just needs to be done through a federal Constitutional amendment, not legislation.

[Stringer_Bell]

Actually I was trying to get someone to back up his contention.

I happily stand by my conjecture that illegal immigrants cost us more than contribute. No one has disproved it, so until further notice it stands. I have no problem changing my POV on the matter if information comes to light.

I'll leave the research to the pros. I've asked plenty of questions on this board outside of "troll-mode" and once in awhile I'll get someone that is kind enough to do the research or link me. Not my fault I'm not into giving intellectual handouts!!

[CosmicCowboy]

4 million 'bridge babies" are born in the US every year just so the mothers/family get a free pass. We can deal with this without amending the constitution. Let the babies continue to be US citizens. Then give the undocumented mother a choice...Let the baby stay in the US and give it up for adoption OR take your US citizen baby back to Mexico and raise him. Either way, the undocumented MOTHER ain't stayin in the US.

[ElNono]

4 million 'bridge babies" are born in the US every year just so the mothers/family get a free pass. We can deal with this without amending the constitution. Let the babies continue to be US citizens. Then give the undocumented mother a choice...Let the baby stay in the US and give it up for adoption OR take your US citizen baby back to Mexico and raise him. Either way, the undocumented MOTHER ain't stayin in the US.

Option 2 is what happens in most cases, as far as I've heard. Mother goes back to Mexico with US child. Once child becomes 18 years old, he can request papers for the entire immediate family, and the immigration laws indicate that the US basically can't say no.
In a way, one single US kid can eventually legalize all 6 brothers, and also mom and dad.

Again, we're barking at the wrong tree here. Without seriously attempting to close the border, we're basically wasting time and money.

[ElNono]

I happily stand by my conjecture that illegal immigrants contribute more than they cost us. No one has disproved it, so until further notice it stands. I have no problem changing my POV on the matter if information comes to light.

[MiamiHeat]

Post how much it is costing us.

Police services, medical services, social handouts, stealing jobs by offering to work for a lower wage, etc.

[jack sommerset]

Actually I was trying to get someone to back up his contention.

I know that's something you could never do since you are generally insecure and not sure of your ability to explain your opinions. You think you might might be moving in the wrong direction of the topic and/or they think they might lose what ever cred--

--oh, that's right. You never had any.

Too bad you could never answer any questions. Merely bitching about my doing it shows just how insecure and petty you are.

Who said I was talking about you? Feeling insecure, again! This post is another example of you being petty, again.

I never answer your questions. :lmao

Don't be lame....Let me guess, you will tell me not to be lame, insecure and petty.

Don't feel hurt if I decide not to feed your troll anymore in this thread. Surprise, it gets boring after awhile.

[boutons_deux]

MH, you're one stupid fuck. This an ad hominem attack based on hard evidence.

[The Reckoning]

how about putting a term on how long the parents have to be in the US to grant citizenship to the child born? you would have to have a passport to document it, so that seems like a viable method.

[ChumpDumper]

I happily stand by my conjecture that illegal immigrants cost us more than contribute. No one has disproved it, so until further notice it stands. I have no problem changing my POV on the matter if information comes to light.

I'll leave the research to the pros. I've asked plenty of questions on this board outside of "troll-mode" and once in awhile I'll get someone that is kind enough to do the research or link me. Not my fault I'm not into giving intellectual handouts!!You haven't backed up your conjecture, so it happily stands as bullshit until proved otherwise.


Police services, medical services, social handouts, stealing jobs by offering to work for a lower wage, etc.That didn't say how much. Post how much it is costing.


Who said I was talking about you? Feeling insecure, again! This post is another example of you being petty, again.

I never answer your questions. :lmao

Don't be lame....Let me guess, you will tell me not to be lame, insecure and petty.

Don't feel hurt if I decide not to feed your troll anymore in this thread. Surprise, it gets boring after awhile. Feeling insecure, again! This post is another example of you being petty, again.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Who said I was talking about you? Feeling insecure, again! This post is another example of you being petty, again.

I never answer your questions. :lmao

Don't be lame....Let me guess, you will tell me not to be lame, insecure and petty.

Don't feel hurt if I decide not to feed your troll anymore in this thread. Surprise, it gets boring after awhile.

so asking you to support your statements is petty.. ok dummy

[DarkReign]

Or, how about this...

In case no one has noticed, there is no political will to do anything about the situation besides Mexican border states.

You think Michigan gives a rat's ass about your immigrant problems? No offense, but there arent that many Canadians "jumping the fence" trying to get into the country.

No one knows your plight, if there is a "plight" here to even speak of at all.

That why the Federal government has done, basically, nothing about the national border. Try as you may, try as you might, people in Ohio have only a small understanding of the magnitude. You guys (thats you Southern boys and girls, near the border) cant go a day, heck maybe even a couple hours, without hearing Spanish.

I can go weeks, months. Normally, anyway.

It just isnt a nationwide problem, its a regional problem. A very large, important, economically stable region, yes, but still just a region.

Its California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. Two of those states are gigantic in both size, population, economy and political weight, to be sure. But it isnt enough.

California is not in the economic meltdown it finds itself today because of undocumented, non-taxpaying aliens. They made their own bed thinking the gravy-train would never stop, stupid regulations and laws that hurt every industrial business in the state. The entire agriculture sector is affected by things like gas tax, fuel efficency regulation, CO2 emission testing, etc, etc. California is a complete mess...admittedly, illegals certainly dont help the situation (i think?), but theyre not exacerbating it either.

Arizona is a far better example. Small population, large-ish state by way of square miles. If the significant number of illegals are using the system like a normal citizen of low income would, I could see their state budget getting affected measurably. Illegals get hurt, go to hospitals, never pay, someone else does, insurance rates go up, etc. Social welfare which does no check for citizenship (at least not here in Michigan they dont), sending money back to Mexico, never paying taxes, never learning the language or assimilating in anyway.

Texas is a lot like California, minus the extreme self-indebtedness. Thanks to an oil rich landscape amongst its existing economic diversity, Texas is unique in the United States.

This got wordy for no reason...

No one in the rest of the country cares, minus a few militia-types and theur inbred cousins. Mexicans arent "taking jobs" here in Michigan and I would think its like that jsut about everywhere else, too. Its kind of your problem.

You solve it, we all have our own. Secure your own damn borders, if your state feels theyd be better served if they did. Seems to me, your leadership doesnt think its that big of an issue. I dont see how illegal immigrants could have a powerful lobby in your state governments preventing effective change. If thats the case, the "aliens" are FAR more organized than you citizens are, and just further proves native-born Americans are lazy and contemptuous.

Your borders, your problem. If its even as big a problem as it is made to sound to begin with. Which, tbh, doesnt matter if it is or if it isnt. If it means that much to state residents, any law, any construction project can be passed. But it doesnt even seem that important to you folks down there (except Arizona), why should the rest of us care?

[DarkReign]

End Note:

So its known, I dont much give a shit one way or the other. Michigan is a political and economic shithole of no equal in the country. I hate my government and my ignorant, trailer trash, celebrity-worshiping, reality-television watching countrymen.

This whole country can take a giant shit on itself at this point, I think it'd be more productive, really. The weak die, the strong live, the world is a better place for it. Carrying all this deadweight that consumes, talks and dear God, votes is what is killing this country.

Thin the herd by any means necessary, thats my vote. Until anger and violence becomes the path to a solution, IMO, youre all just spinning your wheels. Nothing is going to change, certainly not for the better. All we see is the consolidation of power at the very top and what happens on CNN is the rest of us complaining about the scraps we're leftover after paying for all the deadweight that is allowed to exist in this country.

Politics are a waste of time, at this point. The time when politicians could "fix" this country's situation is gone, been gone, long gone, before I was born. This is the world as we know it, it only gets worse from here (unless there is some Earth-shattering scientific discovery).

The means and methods that we need to be employed to "fix" the United States are unbearable by a majority of the population. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare...all of it needs to end, today.

The military needs to be condensed...today.

Taxes need to go UP...today.

None of this will happen because it doesnt get anyone elected...

Which is why a dictatorship almost always follows a democracy. The inefficiencies of the system are almost always exposed, but we Americans have had the luxury of ever-lasting economic expansion to shield us from the true nature of deficit-spending. Greece knows...now. So does Spain...now.

We can laugh, but we;re right behind them. They just dont have the military might the US does and world economic influence because of our sole-superpower position.

Illegal aliens?

Really?

This is the problem we choose to focus on? Two wars that look to never end, a collapsing currency, an ecological disaster that looks to maybe be only one small step less of a disaster than Chernobyl, a country of corporate culture that literally stole trillions from US citizens and are yet, still alive and well today?

Illegal aliens?

Really?!

Whatever keeps you distracted, I guess. I am just as incredibly guilty as all of you (us).

[DarrinS]

You solve it, we all have our own. Secure your own damn borders, if your state feels theyd be better served if they did. Seems to me, your leadership doesnt think its that big of an issue. I dont see how illegal immigrants could have a powerful lobby in your state governments preventing effective change. If thats the case, the "aliens" are FAR more organized than you citizens are, and just further proves native-born Americans are lazy and contemptuous.


Isn't that what Arizona is trying to do?

[SnakeBoy]

The time when politicians could "fix" this country's situation is gone, been gone, long gone, before I was born. This is the world as we know it, it only gets worse from here (unless there is some Earth-shattering scientific discovery).


<sigh> So when you look back at previous generations who proclaimed the end was near do you think to yourself "they were right" or do you think "what silly fatalists".

Look it's pretty simple. We are maybe 3-4 election cycles away from getting an effective government. We're already through the phase of conservative minded people realizing the RNC house needs to be cleaned. Now democrats are rapidly realizing their house is fucked and needs a good cleaning(this is happening faster than I expected). So yeah there are some very hard times ahead but it's a pretty ingenious system our founding fathers came up with and we'll survive, well most of us anyways. All you need to do is everything you can make sure you're one of the ones who gets through the hard times and then wait for better days. This country has been through worse.

[boutons_deux]

"secure our damn borders"

what exactly is the Repugs' specific, concrete method for securing our borders.

And why didn't they do it for the 8 years they were in power?

One Repug suggested mine fields. Anyone?

[Sisk]

conservatives don't care about illegal babies..

or you

[DarkReign]

<sigh> So when you look back at previous generations who proclaimed the end was near do you think to yourself "they were right" or do you think "what silly fatalists".

Look it's pretty simple. We are maybe 3-4 election cycles away from getting an effective government. We're already through the phase of conservative minded people realizing the RNC house needs to be cleaned. Now democrats are rapidly realizing their house is fucked and needs a good cleaning(this is happening faster than I expected). So yeah there are some very hard times ahead but it's a pretty ingenious system our founding fathers came up with and we'll survive, well most of us anyways. All you need to do is everything you can make sure you're one of the ones who gets through the hard times and then wait for better days. This country has been through worse.

Maybe youre right, I certainly hope you are. But the history of this country has never seen the amount of debt coupled with lack of political will to do anything about it. The national debt was gigantic (relative to GDP or GNP, whichever suits your fancy) after the Civil War. What is different now from then is that the succeeding government(s) of the time thought it prudent to pay that debt down as soon as humanly possible (and they did).

Nothing...and I really mean nothing about this 20th century US government shows even the slightest inclination of similar will. Nevermind the additional fact that government provides and is involved so much more in the everyday lives of so many citizens.

The problems of this day, IMO, are far more complex then any of the previous incarnations. The Great Depression is the only eclipsing example and it took a World War to fix that. The problem with trying to repeat that same solution is the fact that the next World War will be most likely be the last.

Youre far more optimistic than me, but thats akin to pointing out the extremely obvious. Re-reading my "say-nothing" posts, it comes off as whiny and melancholy. Wasnt the intention, just a bit of a half-cocked, unprovoked rant as I survey the political landscape from uneducated eyes. People, IMO, tend to focus far too closely on the details. There is an over-arching picture to be seen that is being ignored either ignorantly or willfully.

I am done...you may as well be right.

[jack sommerset]

so asking you to support your statements is petty.. ok dummy

What are you talking about this time?

[jack sommerset]

George might be retarded.

[MiamiHeat]

That didn't say how much. Post how much it is costing.


It's costing us a lot of money to provide services for the illegals.

[ChumpDumper]

It's costing us a lot of money to provide services for the illegals.That didn't say how much. Post a number. From a real source.

[MiamiHeat]

That didn't say how much. Post a number. From a real source.

I am a real human, I'm not fake.

As for number, it's definitely above $10,000,000.

Costing a lot.

[ChumpDumper]

I am a real human, I'm not fake.

As for number, it's definitely above $10,000,000.

Costing a lot.So you don't have an actual number and you just made one up.

That was expected.

[MiamiHeat]

So you don't have an actual number and you just made one up.

That was expected.

no, $10,000,000 dollars actually do exist, it's not fake.

[ChumpDumper]

no, $10,000,000 dollars actually do exist, it's not fake.It's not the cost.

[MiamiHeat]

It's not the cost.

It's definitely surpasses $10,000,000

[ChumpDumper]

It's definitely surpasses $10,000,000How do you know?

[Wild Cobra]

That didn't say how much. Post a number. From a real source.
Chump, what don't you get off that horse. I've seen the numbers before for my state. It's fucking ridiculous. They contribute so little compared to the social services that use. Numbers. Screw that, I'm not even going to look. The internet has co much more material that supports liberal thoughts. The numbers or periodically brought up by conservative talk show hiosts, and when someine shows you a number, you will find some way to disqualify it. That's just your style.

Wake up and smell the truth. Most of them qualify for subsidized everything. In my state, if they are brown, the social services doesn't even verify anything they say. they just hand out the benefits like candy. If you are black or white however, you have to have papers up your ass.

[MiamiHeat]

How do you know?

Because police force, medical services such as hospital visit emergency rooms, ambulances, public education, social services / handouts, stealing jobs by offering to work for slave wages,

all of these things put together add up to much more than $10,000,000

[MiamiHeat]

Chump, what don't you get off that horse. I've seen the numbers before for my state. It's fucking ridiculous. They contribute so little compared to the social services that use. Numbers. Screw that, I'm not even going to look. The internet has co much more material that supports liberal thoughts. The numbers or periodically brought up by conservative talk show hiosts, and when someine shows you a number, you will find some way to disqualify it. That's just your style.

Wake up and smell the truth. Most of them qualify for subsidized everything. In my state, if they are brown, the social services doesn't even verify anything they say. they just hand out the benefits like candy. If you are black or white however, you have to have papers up your ass.

yes i agree

1) with the stolen job they have, by offering to work for slave wages,

2) they send a lot of it back to mexico for their familie

3) that money should have been invested in their community, supporting stores, services, etc.

there are many many things they do that hurt this country.

[angrydude]

So conservatives are hoping for an activist judge to make new law.

um, passing a bill through a legislature and hoping a judge will side with them would be the exact opposite judicial activism.

Judicial activism would be if some judge decided to agree with them out of the blue while hearing a case on a completely unrelated matter.

but don't let the obvious get in the way of making witty remarks about conservatives.

[jack sommerset]

there are many many things they do that hurt this country.

Like rape, murder, robbery, molesting, car jacking, prostitution, drug dealing, kidnapping....Lots of things, just naming a few things

[MiamiHeat]

most illegals don't commit those crimes though

[jack sommerset]

most illegals don't commit those crimes though

True but lots do.

[ElNono]

2007 CBO Report of Illegal Alien's impact on State and Local Governments Budgets (http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8711/12-6-Immigration.pdf)

I believe it's the latest you can find...

I really haven't read it all, but if you guys are truly interested in getting informed, there is an actual study based on about 15 years of state and local reports...

[MiamiHeat]

2007 CBO Report of Illegal Alien's impact on State and Local Governments Budgets (http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8711/12-6-Immigration.pdf)

I believe it's the latest you can find...

I really haven't read it all, but if you guys are truly interested in getting informed, there is an actual study based on about 15 years of state and local reports...

Can you summarize it for us?

[Wild Cobra]

most illegals don't commit those crimes though
Yep,I think we can forget the crime angle and still have plenty of valid reasons to make them unwelcome. Most the serious crimes are in the southern states, although there is still plenty per capita by them where I live. Almost as bad as crimes by blacks per capita.

[ElNono]

Can you summarize it for us?


I really haven't read it all, but if you guys are truly interested in getting informed, there is an actual study based on about 15 years of state and local reports...

[ChumpDumper]

Chump, what don't you get off that horse. I've seen the numbers before for my state.Give me a link to them.

[Wild Cobra]

2007 CBO Report of Illegal Alien's impact on State and Local Governments Budgets (http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8711/12-6-Immigration.pdf)

I believe it's the latest you can find...

I really haven't read it all, but if you guys are truly interested in getting informed, there is an actual study based on about 15 years of state and local reports...
Here's an interesting on from that file:


Another report—prepared by the state comptroller of
Texas—estimated that, in 2006, the state collected
$424 million more in revenue from unauthorized immigrants
than it spent to provide education, health care, and
law enforcement activities for that population. However,
the state estimated that local governments incurred
$1.4 billion in uncompensated costs for health care and
law enforcement.
Looks like an approximate Billion dollar loss to me.

[ElNono]

How about unwelcome them on the basis that they didn't enter the country legally?

[ElNono]

Another interesting tidbit from there:

Historically, most foreign-born residents, including unauthorized immigrants, have settled in a few states. In 1990, almost 75 percent of the total foreign-born population and almost 90 percent of unauthorized immigrants lived in six states: California, Florida, Illinois, New Jersey, New York, and Texas The concentration of that population in just a few states has been diminishing, however, as more immigrants settle in states not traditionally consid- ered destinations for recent immigrant populations. Using census data, Pew found that, in 2004, 10 times as many unauthorized immigrants lived outside the six traditional settlement states than in 1990. There was a marked increase in the number of unauthorized immigrants settling in states such as Arizona, Georgia, North Carolina, and Tennessee—states that previously had little experience with such immigration. That phenomenon notwithstanding, unauthorized immigrants in most states make up a small portion of the state’s population. In California, however, where Pew estimates that one-quarter of all unauthorized immigrants live, those immigrants make up an estimated 8 percent of the total state population.

[ducks]

When can states pass state laws that override the Constitution?

When can states grant/revoke US citizenship?

Any state that has Sharron Angle as a candidate is one fucked up state.

Meanwhile, McLiar declares himslef the unMaverick and flip flops on every single position he has ever taken in desperation to keep his Senate seat. A principled man. McCain-Feingold anyone? :lol

guess what is against the constitution to have a income tax


since when if is against the constition does it matter


and for your info
when the consition was written people got shot entering the country illegally!
people did not think of someone here illegally would actually be able to have a baby at a hospital!

[Wild Cobra]

Another interesting tidbit from there:


In California, however, where Pew estimates that one-quarter of all unauthorized immigrants live, those immigrants make up an estimated 8 percent of the total state population.
I wonder what percentage of the state and local social services budget they use?

I wonder how much of California's budget problems they are?

[MiamiHeat]

How about unwelcome them on the basis that they didn't enter the country legally?


What does it matter on what basis we unwelcome them? Political correctness? So you feel better? So we don't hurt someone's feelings?

There are many reasons why we should unwelcome them, and they should all be considered and grouped together into one big "STAY OUT" sign.

[ducks]

How do you know?

how the fucking hell do you know it fucking is not

[ChumpDumper]

how the fucking hell do you know it fucking is notNo credible source. I was only asking for a credible source, champ. Looks like the "conservatives" here aren't very forthcoming.

[MiamiHeat]

No credible source. I was only asking for a credible source, champ. Looks like the "conservatives" here aren't very forthcoming.

I am not a conservative at all, nor am I a liberal....

I already told you, it costs a lot of money. WildCobra provided proof up there. $1 billion state loss for the year 2006. That's a hell of a lot of money for a state to lose.

[ducks]

who says he is not a crediable source



who makes a crediable source to you?

[ElNono]

What does it matter on what basis we unwelcome them? Political correctness? So you feel better? So we don't hurt someone's feelings?
There are many reasons why we should unwelcome them, and they should all be considered and grouped together into one big "STAY OUT" sign.

My point being the same point I've been making: We have plenty of those "STAY OUT" signs in the border. Doesn't seem to stop them from coming in though, do they?

If you don't get serious about stopping them from easily coming in, then what's the point of all these retarded laws?

[ChumpDumper]

I am not a conservative at all, nor am I a liberal....

I already told you, it costs a lot of money. WildCobra provided proof up there. $1 billion state loss for the year 2006. That's a hell of a lot of money for a state to lose.You provided no proof.

Neither did WC.

It was ElNono.

Now we're getting somewhere.

OK, if there is a net loss in tax money -- what is the economic impact of illegal immigrants on prices of food, construction, landscaping, child care and other labor in which illegals are concentrated? Do they have a net effect on the prices of these things for the citizens of these states?

I certainly don't have the numbers for that, but I think that may give a more complete picture of the situation.

[ChumpDumper]

who says he is not a crediable source



who makes a crediable source to you?ElNono provided one.

This isn't rocket science.

[ElNono]

I wonder what percentage of the state and local social services budget they use?
I wonder how much of California's budget problems they are?

I don't readily know, but looks like you could chop 25% of the problem by just addressing the issue in California alone.

I thought that was interesting.

[MiamiHeat]

My point being the same point I've been making: We have plenty of those "STAY OUT" signs in the border. Doesn't seem to stop them from coming in though, do they?

Are you taking my metaphor literally?



If you don't get serious about stopping them from easily coming in, then what's the point of all these retarded laws?

1) We also have to kick out the millions upons millions of illegals already here

2) 100% securing the border is completely impossible. People will always find a way to smuggle humans in. So we have to make laws to discourage them from coming in the first place

3) The ideal solution would be to have a border that doesn't need expensive security. Illegals just don't want to come anymore. Problem solved!

[ElNono]

1) We also have to kick out the millions upons millions of illegals already here

2) 100% securing the border is completely impossible. People will always find a way to smuggle humans in. So we have to make laws to discourage them from coming in the first place

3) The ideal solution would be to have a border that doesn't need expensive security. Illegals just don't want to come anymore. Problem solved!

People risks their own life to come here and you think you can legislate disincentives :lol

That's just being naïve. The few disincentives you can create is by having the American economy in worst shape than the economy on their respective countries (or the opposite, that their economy improves beyond ours), or by securing the border enough such that supply of access is minimized to a point where it becomes unaffordable to the mass of illegal immigrants we have penetrating the border now. The rest is simply fantasy.

I don't claim we need 100% border control, but we can do considerably better than we currently are.

[Wild Cobra]

who says he is not a crediable source



who makes a crediable source to you?
It is impossible to debate Chumop when he gets that way. No matter what you provide, he will ask another question, often just a bit different than the discussion.

Times like this are times to ignore the asshole.

[Wild Cobra]

3) The ideal solution would be to have a border that doesn't need expensive security. Illegals just don't want to come anymore. Problem solved!
I think we need more security at the border, but mainly because of the drug trafficking. Othewise, I would be for tearing down the walls. People will find a way to get here regardless haw hard we make it, and we cannot afford to round them all up and deport all of them.

We need laws with teeth. Laws that will financially break and/or jail employers for knowingly hire those not legally authorized to work here. We need to require all social services check for the validity of being here before non-emergency services are rendered. this still won't completely stop illegal immigration, but it most certainly will put a dent in the financial burdens that local, state, and the federal government have.

How many people here think this will not solve most of the problem?

[ChumpDumper]

It is impossible to debate Chumop when he gets that way. No matter what you provide, he will ask another question, often just a bit different than the discussion.

Times like this are times to ignore the asshole.U mad?

[MiamiHeat]

I certainly don't have the numbers for that, but I think that may give a more complete picture of the situation.

Do you have the credible sources for this?

[ChumpDumper]

Do you have the credible sources for this?I stated nothing as a fact. I was actually stating more information would be helpful. It's a shame you don't understand English. It's as if you are not from the US.

[Wild Cobra]

I stated nothing as a fact. I was actually stating more information would be helpful. It's a shame you don't understand English. It's as if you are not from the US.
It's a shame when you want facts on a claim so blatantly obvious. To me, that's an indication of a room temperature IQ. Assuming you have a decent IQ, and I do think you do, that's means you are just being an asshole.

[MiamiHeat]

People risks their own life to come here and you think you can legislate disincentives :lol

Yes, now they do. The whole point of this discussion is to change the conditions here in America so that they won't want to do that anymore. Have you been paying attention??



That's just being naïve. The few disincentives you can create is by having the American economy in worst shape than the economy on their respective countries (or the opposite, that their economy improves beyond ours),

Is that really the only "discincentive" you can think of? America has to be in "worst shape than the economy in mexico" ?

I gave you a few solutions earlier, did you not pay attention?

Our economy could be the best in the world. Just make it so the majority of illegals can't make a living here and share in it.




or by securing the border enough such that supply of access is minimized to a point where it becomes unaffordable to the mass of illegal immigrants we have penetrating the border now.

If we don't create laws to stop their desire to come, then as you said, "they risk their lives to come here"..... and who will pay for this expensive border security?

What about the Coast Guard too? You realize Mexicans have boats right? They can just circumvent the land border and just get on a boat near the border, go north, and land on Non-Border coastline in the Gulf of Mexico or the Californian Pacific coastline. Drug dealers already do this.

Do you see where your plan goes wrong? Who pays for all of this? and it's impossible to stop.

The only way is to continue to move forward with serious laws.

[Wild Cobra]

Besides, it's not just illegals coming from Mexico, or across that border.

We have illegals from numerous nationalities. Mexicans are just the largest of the group, because of the shared border.

[ChumpDumper]

It's a shame when you want facts on a topic so blatantly obvious. To me, that's an indication of a room temperature IQ. Assuming you have a decent IQ, and I do think you do, that's means you are just being an asshole.No, it means I want actual numbers, not something you or someone else pulled out of your ass. You are so busy being a pussy about the question I asked, you didn't notice that it had been answered (Thanks, ElNono. It's amazing that idiots like WC and MH and ducks and jack just can't say "I don't know where the actual numbers are") and I had moved on in the discussion. It's obvious you just want to keep bitching about me.

Have at it, douche.

[MiamiHeat]

I stated nothing as a fact. I was actually stating more information would be helpful. It's a shame you don't understand English. It's as if you are not from the US.

Can you provide the credible sources that will lead us to believe we need more information for a more complete picture? We already saw the Texas report. $1billion in losses.

[ChumpDumper]

Can you provide the credible sources that will lead us to believe we need more information for a more complete picture? We already saw the Texas report. $1billion in losses.No sources needed for a supposition. Do you think the presence of illegal workers lowers the price of food or housing or anything else that US citizens consume?

[Wild Cobra]

No, it means I want actual numbers, not something you or someone else pulled out of your ass. You are so busy being a pussy about the question I asked, you didn't notice that it had been answered (Thanks, ElNono. It's amazing that idiots like WC and MH and ducks and jack just can't say "I don't know where the actual numbers are") and I had moved on in the discussion. It's obvious you just want to keep bitching about me.

Have at it, douche.
Idiot.

Wasn't it obvious I didn't know where to find the numbers, and wasn't about to waste my time on something to blatantly obvious.

My God... Must I say the words? I thought I only need that level of specificity for a 3 year old.

Yes, Thank-You ElNono.

[Wild Cobra]

No sources needed for a supposition. Do you think the presence of illegal workers lowers the price of food or housing or anything else that US citizens consume?
My opinion is only marginally, if any.

[MiamiHeat]

No sources needed for a supposition. Do you think the presence of illegal workers lowers the price of food or housing or anything else that US citizens consume?

I think the impact of illegal workers on those things may not affect our understanding of the bigger picture.

You believe it does. I would like credible sources of this, so that we can solve the question of whether or not it may provide us a better understanding of the bigger picture.

[ChumpDumper]

Idiot.

Wasn't it obvious I didn't know where to find the numbers, and wasn't about to waste my time on something to blatantly obvious.The actual number wasn't obvious. None of you had it. Why are you getting pissy about not having a number that wasn't obvious?


My opinion is only marginally, if any.So you don't have any numbers for this either.


I think the impact of illegal workers on those things may not affect our understanding of the bigger picture.Why not? I noticed you didn't answer my question. I don't blame you.


You believe it does. I would like credible sources of this, so that we can solve the question of whether or not it may provide us a better understanding of the bigger picture.No source needed. I know you can't understand any of this. Sorry.

[MiamiHeat]

Why not? I noticed you didn't answer my question. I don't blame you.

I answered your question. I think it will not give us a more complete picture. You think it will give us a more complete picture.

Why do you think it will give us a more complete picture of the situation?

[RoddyBukkake]

great law, massive non-white immigration will be the death of this country

[ChumpDumper]

I answered your questionThere was another question.

[MiamiHeat]

There was another question.

You didn't answer my question, yet I answered one of yours.

I will answer the second one, too. I think the impact of illegal aliens on food prices is irrelevant/not important.

Now answer mine...

Why do you think it will give us a more complete picture of the situation?

[ChumpDumper]

You didn't answer my question, yet I answered one of yours.I answered one of your questions, then you didn't answer mine and asked another one.


Why do you think it will give us a more complete picture of the situation?I think there may be evidence that the labor of illegal immigrants lowers the prices of things like food and housing, maybe even substantially.

That is why I asked the question you did not answer and still refuse to answer.

[MiamiHeat]

I answered one of your questions, then you didn't answer mine and asked another one.

I edited my post to answer your second question, but will repost it now in response to this post.

I think the impact of illegal aliens on food prices is irrelevant/not important.



I think there may be evidence that the labor of illegal immigrants lowers the prices of things like food and housing, maybe even substantially.


Well, I think there may not be any evidence to that whatsoever.

[ChumpDumper]

I edited my post to answer your second question, but will repost it now in response to this post.

I think the impact of illegal aliens on food prices is irrelevant/not important.How do you come to that conclusion?


Well, I think there may not be any evidence to that whatsoever.You think there is no evidence that the labor of illegal workers lowers the prices of anything consumed by US citizens?

[MiamiHeat]

How do you come to that conclusion?

I personally believe capitalism should be forced to adapt to a world without illegal workers, so whatever the effects are, if there are any in the first place, are irrelevant to me.



You think there is no evidence that the labor of illegal workers lowers the prices of anything consumed by US citizens?

I think there may not be any evidence on that subject.

Do you believe there is evidence on this subject, that the labor of illegal workers lowers the prices of anything consumed by US citizens?

[Wild Cobra]

I think there may not be any evidence on that subject.

Do you believe there is evidence on this subject, that the labor of illegal workers lowers the prices of anything consumed by US citizens?
I have heard evidence from a Potato Grower in Idaho. He claims it costs him 3 cents a pound more to bring potatoes to market with legal help over illegal help.

Three cents. Is anyone not willing to pay that difference?

[ChumpDumper]

I personally believe capitalism should be forced to adapt to a world without illegal workers.Fair enough. Theoretically, if illegal labor does lower prices for US consumers, how much more are you willing to pay for food and housing, for example? A rough percentage will do fine.



I think there may not be any evidence on that subject.

Do you believe there is evidence on this subject, that the labor of illegal workers lowers the prices of anything consumed by US citizens?There could be.

[ChumpDumper]

I have heard evidence from a Potato Grower in Idaho. He claims it costs him 3 cents a pound more to bring potatoes to market with legal help over illegal help.

Three cents. Is anyone not willing to pay that difference?Do you have a link to that?

I'd like to see it.

[Wild Cobra]

Do you have a link to that?

I'd like to see it.
That's one of your problems. You only believe what you read on the internet.

This was a radio interview something last year. Sorry, I have no link for it, nor do I expect to find one.

Does 3 cents a pound sound unreasonable for a difference in labor cost? I personally think it's high, because a single person can easily pick quite a few pounds an hour.

[MiamiHeat]

Fair enough. Theoretically, if illegal labor does lower prices for US consumers, how much more are you willing to pay for food and housing, for example? A rough percentage will do fine.

I am a great patriot in my heart, so I will be willing to pay whatever the market settles into.... in our theoretical world where illegal workers do not exist.



There could be.

and there could not be. Who knows?

As of right now, we DO know that Texas lost $1 billion due to illegals in the year 2006. That's a lot of money. Much more than my $10,000,000 earlier.

[ChumpDumper]

That's one of your problems. You only believe what you read on the internet.I read your posts on the internet and I don't believe them.

I just wanted a link, douche. I was interested. It could certainly be true -- it's just that you lie so often.

[ChumpDumper]

I am a great patriot in my heart, so I will be willing to pay whatever the market settles into.... in our theoretical world where illegal workers do not exist.Any price?


As of right now, we DO know that Texas lost $1 billion due to illegals in the year 2006. That's a lot of money.So what do you want done about it?

[MiamiHeat]

Any price?

Whatever the market settles into. That is how great of an american patriot I am in my heart! Oooo say can you see!



So what do you want done about it?

I believe I already stated that in my previous posts.

[MiamiHeat]

Illegals are using our resources....Police services, medical services, social handouts, stealing jobs by offering to work for a lower wage, etc.

costing this country A LOT of money.

We need to kill their desire to enter the USA illegally.

[Nbadan]

Illegal labor saves US citizens billions of dollars yearly in lower cost food, housing and many, many services...studies show, way more than they consume nationally....trouble is illegals aren't spread out across the country evenly, so border states like Texas, Arizona, and California must use local and state money to deal with the symptoms of illegal immigration...

[Stringer_Bell]

You haven't backed up your conjecture, so it happily stands as bullshit until proved otherwise.

Of course it's bullshit, it's a conjecture. You do know the definition of conjecture don't you? Try not to be so redundant, come out of your bunker and contribute an opinion on the topic and not just the opinions of others. Don't worry, I won't pull the "bullshit" card on you - it's the internet so it's a given. :king

Someone posted earlier about this issue mainly being discussed only by borders states and most other states aren't too concerned. They could alienate Hispanic/various immigrant voters when they really don't need to, it's a battle they don't need to involve themselves in at this time. As stupid as Arizona is, it's getting easier to understand why they feel the need to do certain things when the rest of the states/feds sit around with their thumbs up their ass. It's an issue that takes courage to tackle because we are a nation of immigrants, but just like a dozen other issues facing this country we cannot sustain this pace.

[Nbadan]

As stupid as Arizona is, it's getting easier to understand why they feel the need to do certain things when the rest of the states/feds sit around with their thumbs up their ass.

Is it really? Immigrants eventually become tax-payers and every state needs more tax payers than consumers....look at every failed, oppressive nation and their tight immigration policies..they did themselves in just as Arizona is today...

[Winehole23]

It's an issue that takes courage to tackle because we are a nation of immigrants, but just like a dozen other issues facing this country we cannot sustain this pace.The pace has abated during the epochal recession, and the historical trend of violent crime in AZ has been downward, believe it or not. For quite awhile now. The law and order complaint is overblown.

If you want to make the argument from the standpoint of employment, that's something different. The threat to life and property has been overhyped.

[Nbadan]

The trouble in Arizona is the same as every other border state - the failure of political will to raise state and local tax rates to pay for the services they receive....blaming the immigrant is just a method of deflecting blame to someone who has practically no political voice..

[Winehole23]

The trouble in Arizona is the same as every other border state - the failure of political will to raise state and local tax rates to pay for the services they receive....A quibble, Sir: how is it all that much different for all the other states and indeed the country as a whole?

[Winehole23]

....blaming the immigrant is just a method of deflecting blame to someone who has practically no political voice...Timed and executed correctly, it can be very effective in the short term.

[Stringer_Bell]

The pace has abated during the epochal recession, and the historical trend of violent crime in AZ has been downward, believe it or not. For quite awhile now. The law and order complaint is overblown.

If you want to make the argument from the standpoint of employment, that's something different. The threat to life and property has been overhyped.

I agree on the "threat to life and property" pleas being overblown, that's not something I've ever bought into despite the fear mongering about illegals coming over to kill ranchers only to flee back to Mexico for what appears to be no reason at all. :rolleyes

@Nbadan: That sounds plausible, but it'd be nice if we could have a working border policy. Immigrants aren't the only things that go bump in the night down here. :(

[Winehole23]

Memory and moral conscience are bitches, however. AZ would do well to keep that in mind.

[Winehole23]

I agree on the "threat to life and property" pleas being overblown, that's not something I've ever bought into despite the fear mongering about illegals coming over to kill ranchers only to flee back to Mexico for what appears to be no reason at all. :rolleyesI'm not saying nothing like that happens. I don't doubt it does from time to time. I'm just saying it doesn't move the aggregate, like has been suggested by some.

[Nbadan]

A quibble, Sir: how is it all that much different for all the other states and indeed the country as a whole?

it's not...raise taxes and the deficits get smaller every year until we reach a point where it can be paid down...inflationary pressures on the dollar ease despite our own economic success, unlike now where too much growth too fast, or exactly what the country needs, is inflationary.

[Winehole23]

raise taxes and the deficits get smaller every yearWill it work if you don't trim services at the same time?

[Nbadan]

Will it work if you don't trim services at the same time?

Some modifications are always necessary, more important is that no new services are added without a accompaning way to pay for these new services..

[Winehole23]

Maybe we don't need new services. Maybe we just need to figure out how to pay for the ones we have, or short of that, cutting them to size.

[Nbadan]

Which particular services are you talking about?

I see billions of dollars in pork-barrel waste in Military spending...corporate welfare...

[Winehole23]

Sure. Big defense is big government. But so are Social Security and Medicare.

[Drachen]

You mean we have technology good enough to track, image and lock on targets to within feets but we can't locate coyotes with groups of a dozen people moving around?

The comparison with East Germany is inane. The GDR was a dying regime that didn't have the economic resources nor technological resources we have. Not to mention that the wall came crumbling down 20 years ago. In technological terms, that's 3 or 4 lifetimes.

Ultimately, there always will be a 'human factor' you can't control. But if you reduce every day occurrences to a bare minimum, then those start to stand out. Unfortunately there's no political will to actually act on this, on either party.

I anticipated this type of response and apologize for responding so late. I have had a sick daughter all week long and have been tending to her. The DDR wasn't always a dying regime and they were the most vibrant economy in the eastern block. Still people escaped. The government had far superior techonological resources to their citizens at that time. and so the advantage went to the government here. The government wasn't above the use of extremely brutal tactics in order to keep their population within the (literally) walls. Land mines, guard towers, and patrol boats with shoot to kill on sight orders when they saw someone escaping. Not to mention one of the greatest citizen-informant networks so far, the Stazi. With all of this in place, people still escaped.

Now you are saying that 20 years ago was 3 or 4 technological lifetimes ago. This is true. So both the government AND regular joes have increased their technological capabilities by many times. If you think that those streaming across the border have no technological capabilities, think again. If the cartels see profit in it, they will put the resources together to make it happen.

As an aside, did you know that that scuba swimmer thing (the one that divers hold onto that has propellers in it to move them along) was invented by an east german who successfully escaped.

[Drachen]

No, it means I want actual numbers, not something you or someone else pulled out of your ass. You are so busy being a pussy about the question I asked, you didn't notice that it had been answered (Thanks, ElNono. It's amazing that idiots like WC and MH and ducks and jack just can't say "I don't know where the actual numbers are") and I had moved on in the discussion. It's obvious you just want to keep bitching about me.

Have at it, douche.

You have an internet connection, right? You have an amazing resource that has revolutionized the dissemination of information over the 15-20 years. Welcome to the information age. Have at it!

[RandomGuy]

I personally believe capitalism should be forced to adapt to a world without illegal workers, so whatever the effects are, if there are any in the first place, are irrelevant to me.

There are effects. If you think they are irrelevant, then you are simply not weighing all the available evidence before forming your opinion.




I think there may not be any evidence on that subject.

Do you believe there is evidence on this subject, that the labor of illegal workers lowers the prices of anything consumed by US citizens?

I believe there is. As with so many things all it takes is the first college course in micro-economics.

Farmers and construction companies seek various inputs.
Labor
Fertilizer
Pesticides
Construction materials.

Reduce the price of any of those inputs and you decrease the price that they can offer their outputs, i.e. food and construction.

Since we all eat food, and live/work in constructed buildings that generally makes those goods more available to us.

scott, an actual professor of economics started a thread recently about this very subject, and outlined the principles involved.

[RandomGuy]

Here is that thread I mentioned about the economic effects of illegal immigration.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155003

[ElNono]

Yes, now they do. The whole point of this discussion is to change the conditions here in America so that they won't want to do that anymore. Have you been paying attention??

I've been paying attention to the rhetoric, unfortunately.


Is that really the only "discincentive" you can think of? America has to be in "worst shape than the economy in mexico" ?
I gave you a few solutions earlier, did you not pay attention?
Our economy could be the best in the world. Just make it so the majority of illegals can't make a living here and share in it.

That all sounds rosy and all, but when you turn around, it's all about money. Paying less to do the same job. You think you can impose some kind of moral authority over economic advantage, and you're certainly as naïve as I said you were.


If we don't create laws to stop their desire to come, then as you said, "they risk their lives to come here"..... and who will pay for this expensive border security?

Didn't you just say we lose soooooo much money by having them here? Well, then we sure can pay the expensive border security with the savings, right?


What about the Coast Guard too? You realize Mexicans have boats right? They can just circumvent the land border and just get on a boat near the border, go north, and land on Non-Border coastline in the Gulf of Mexico or the Californian Pacific coastline. Drug dealers already do this.

And? Border security is border security. We spend trillions in useless wars but we can't justify spending a mere subset of that in our own security?


Do you see where your plan goes wrong? Who pays for all of this? and it's impossible to stop.

Who do you think pays for the constant deportation of illegals that just keep on coming back? What do you think it's more costly in the long run?


The only way is to continue to move forward with serious laws.

But this isn't a serious law. It's entirely unconstitutional. Amending the constitution is the way to do this, but there's no political will to do that either.

[DarrinS]

We just need to give the illegals anmesty so that "greedy" capitalist can have cheap labor and Democrats can have a massive group of low-income, entitlement-addicted voter cattle.

It's a win-win.

[Drachen]

I've been paying attention to the rhetoric, unfortunately.



That all sounds rosy and all, but when you turn around, it's all about money. Paying less to do the same job. You think you can impose some kind of moral authority over economic advantage, and you're certainly as naïve as I said you were.



Didn't you just say we lose soooooo much money by having them here? Well, then we sure can pay the expensive border security with the savings, right?



And? Border security is border security. We spend trillions in useless wars but we can't justify spending a mere subset of that in our own security?



Who do you think pays for the constant deportation of illegals that just keep on coming back? What do you think it's more costly in the long run?



But this isn't a serious law. It's entirely unconstitutional. Amending the constitution is the way to do this, but there's no political will to do that either.

I agree that we could spend part of the savings to beef up border security, but I think that it would be unnecessary to spend more on border security if we had some tough disincentives to come across (no anchor babies, proof of citizenship for social services, jail time for employers who knowingly hire them, etc). It is a far more efficient use of resources to effect the demand side than to try to stem the supply side. With all that being said, if the right disincentives are in place, it would seem that the flow would slow down enough that our current border security spending would suffice to prevent the remaining (comparative) trickle.

[TeyshaBlue]

Illegal labor saves US citizens billions of dollars yearly in lower cost food, housing and many, many services...studies show, way more than they consume nationally....trouble is illegals aren't spread out across the country evenly, so border states like Texas, Arizona, and California must use local and state money to deal with the symptoms of illegal immigration...

I'd like to see a source for this. As I comb the net looking for impact on food prices, I'm finding alot of probablys and maybes, but not much in the way of actual data. It would seem to be a fairly marginal figure if it exists at all.
"There are places in the United States where illegal immigration has big effects (both positive and negative). But economists generally believe that when averaged over the whole economy, the effect is a small net positive. Harvard's George Borjas says the average American's wealth is increased by less than 1 percent because of illegal immigration."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5312900
I'd like to see the methodolgy behind measuring the average American's wealth and the attributes thereof, but no bibliography to search thru.

[RandomGuy]

I'd like to see a source for this. As I comb the net looking for impact on food prices, I'm finding alot of probablys and maybes, but not much in the way of actual data. It would seem to be a fairly marginal figure if it exists at all.
"There are places in the United States where illegal immigration has big effects (both positive and negative). But economists generally believe that when averaged over the whole economy, the effect is a small net positive. Harvard's George Borjas says the average American's wealth is increased by less than 1 percent because of illegal immigration."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5312900
I'd like to see the methodolgy behind measuring the average American's wealth and the attributes thereof, but no bibliography to search thru.

There was an economic study done that tried to be as comprehensive as possible, outlining all the costs/benefits, and found that any given illegal immigrant added a Net Present Value (specific finance/economics term) of about $60,000 or so each. This nets all the present and future costs/benefits to one single number.

(from memory, don't know the exact study, sorry)

[TeyshaBlue]

There was an economic study done that tried to be as comprehensive as possible, outlining all the costs/benefits, and found that any given illegal immigrant added a Net Present Value (specific finance/economics term) of about $60,000 or so each. This nets all the present and future costs/benefits to one single number.

Yeah, I saw that referenced in Scott's thread. I understand NPV somewhat, but am unsure as to it's plasticity as current costs fluctuate. I'd like to find that study.

[TeyshaBlue]

BTW...your comparison of illegal immigration reform and marijuana law reform was actually pretty sparkling, RG. :toast

[ChumpDumper]

You have an internet connection, right? You have an amazing resource that has revolutionized the dissemination of information over the 15-20 years. Welcome to the information age. Have at it!I did use my internet connection to ask another user if he had the information.

The idiots got pissy.

The non-idiots simply said they didn't have it.

ElNono had it and gave it to me.

I got the information using the internet.

I had at it.

[jack sommerset]

I did use my internet connection to ask another user if he had the information.

The idiots got pissy.

The non-idiots simply said they didn't have it.

ElNono had it and gave it to me.

I got the information using the internet.

I had at it.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

[Drachen]

I did use my internet connection to ask another user if he had the information.

The idiots got pissy.

The non-idiots simply said they didn't have it.

ElNono had it and gave it to me.

I got the information using the internet.

I had at it.


Good job, glad you are satisfied.

[ChumpDumper]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!Petty and insecure.


Good job, glad you are satisfied.Are you satisfied that I used the internet?

[Drachen]

Petty and insecure.

Are you satisfied that I used the internet?

You absolutely used the internet (thus the "good job" comment). You used it to find someone willing to do your work for you and I won't fault you for that.

[ChumpDumper]

You absolutely used the internet (thus the "good job" comment). You used it to find someone willing to do your work for you and I won't fault you for that.The forum has people who already know these things and who don't get pissy when asked.

The ones who do get pissy are entertaining. I'm sure I've done it.

The hijacking this thread by the pissy to make it about me is entertaining as well.

[Drachen]

The forum has people who already know these things and who don't get pissy when asked.

The ones who do get pissy are entertaining. I'm sure I've done it.

Yes but doing so makes one seem lazy, especially when the bulk of one's posts are questions requesting hard facts, and not an equal amount of providing hard facts. Google is a wonderful thing, and I think you will find that you would have the answer to your questions a lot faster than if you try to badger people into doing your work for you. If google isn't good enough for you, try scholar.google.com, same great search engine, peer reviewed results.

(To be fair, I have not read ALL of your 51k posts, so I am making generalizations on what I have observed, but the funny thing is that I haven't noticed this tendency of yours until maybe the last 5 or 6 months)

[ChumpDumper]

Yes but doing so makes one seem lazy, especially when the bulk of one's posts are questions requesting hard facts, and not an equal amount of providing hard facts. Google is a wonderful thing, and I think you will find that you would have the answer to your questions a lot faster than if you try to badger people into doing your work for you. If google isn't good enough for you, try scholar.google.com, same great search engine, peer reviewed results.

(To be fair, I have not read ALL of your 51k posts, so I am making generalizations on what I have observed, but the funny thing is that I haven't noticed this tendency of yours until maybe the last 5 or 6 months)It's funny, but it actually took less time simply asking the question for ElNono to provide that link than it would have for me to find that particular document using Google.

Google is great, people can be better.

lol bulk -- the main reason I ask for hard facts is that people so clearly make up shit here. That is the main reason they get pissy when I ask them to back up their claims. They made the claim, so they should know where they got the information. If you pay attention to other posters histories as closely as you claim to follow mine, you would see that pattern as well.

I'm all for getting back to the subject -- or do you want to keep posting about me?

[Drachen]

It's funny, but it actually took less time simply asking the question for ElNono to provide that link than it would have for me to find that particular document using Google.

Google is great, people can be better.

lol bulk -- the main reason I ask for hard facts is that people so clearly make up shit here. That is the main reason they get pissy when I ask them to back up their claims. They made the claim, so they should know where they got the information. If you pay attention to other posters histories as closely as you claim to follow mine, you would see that pattern as well.

I'm all for getting back to the subject -- or do you want to keep posting about me?

Im enamored, isn't it obvious? Anyway, i know some other posters' tendencies, though you stand out because, if memory serves, you used to be a quality poster. Maybe I am mistaken in that.


But, we can get back to the topic at hand if there is anything else to say, because I have no statistics or peer reviewed sources to back up my claims above.

[ChumpDumper]

Im enamored, isn't it obvious? Anyway, i know some other posters' tendencies, though you stand out because, if memory serves, you used to be a quality poster. Maybe I am mistaken in that.So, you want to keep talking about me.

Swell -- my calling out of people who make up shit is nothing new. Perhaps there are more people making up shit these days.

I can't say your opinion of my past and present posting is of any importance. Most people say things like that when they get into an argument with me.

You used to be cool, man.

[RandomGuy]

Yeah, I saw that referenced in Scott's thread. I understand NPV somewhat, but am unsure as to it's plasticity as current costs fluctuate. I'd like to find that study.

NPV requires some guesses as to variations in inflation and costs going forward, but attempts to incorporate changes in both.

Most NPV calculations assume inflation stays near the historical norm of 3%.

I have my doubts as to whether the next 40 years will adhere to that norm, but it is as good of a baseline as any.

[TeyshaBlue]

NPV requires some guesses as to variations in inflation and costs going forward, but attempts to incorporate changes in both.

Most NPV calculations assume inflation stays near the historical norm of 3%.

I have my doubts as to whether the next 40 years will adhere to that norm, but it is as good of a baseline as any.

Thanks for the explanation, RG.:toast

[DarkReign]

BTW, I heard people speaking spanish yesterday at the party store. It was three dwarfish people (are Mexicans typically that small?) who hopped out of a tricked out Toyota compact, complete with black flames along the sides, a fake hood scoop and oversized spoiler.

FYI

[LnGrrrR]

We just need to give the illegals anmesty so that "greedy" capitalist can have cheap labor and Democrats can have a massive group of low-income, entitlement-addicted voter cattle.

It's a win-win.

:tu

[RandomGuy]

I hate the Constitution and think we can write laws that ignore it.

... um, yeah. :rolleyes

[RandomGuy]

BTW, I heard people speaking spanish yesterday at the party store. It was three dwarfish people (are Mexicans typically that small?) who hopped out of a tricked out Toyota compact, complete with black flames along the sides, a fake hood scoop and oversized spoiler.

FYI

Mexicans and others from central and south america, tend to be smaller, mostly due to poor nutrition when younger, to my understanding.

[RandomGuy]

Yeah, I saw that referenced in Scott's thread. I understand NPV somewhat, but am unsure as to it's plasticity as current costs fluctuate. I'd like to find that study.

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=5779&page=1

That is it, I think. Hundreds of pages long.

NPV does fluctuate, but generally is dependent on historical average inflation.

Chapter 6 is where they start outlining the assumptions used to derive their figure.


We can now combine all the benefit profiles (see Figure 7.7). It is striking that the benefit levels appear quite similar across all three groups. First- and second-generation immigrants are somewhat more costly during childhood because of the higher educational expenditures in the states in which they live and the costs of bilingual education, but first-generation immigrants who are of college age or who are old are substantially less expensive. The average immigrant does not receive more costly benefits at a given age than natives do; if anything, the opposite is the case. Note, however, that immigrant households are on average larger than native households, so that they may well receive substantially greater benefits than native households, as in the case study of California.

Quite the read. (I skimmed some, but have not read it all)


Seems like the NPV at the time was

[Nbadan]

Mexicans and others from central and south america, tend to be smaller, mostly due to poor nutrition when younger, to my understanding.

Poor nutrition? Smaller?

:wtf

You spend any time on the south-side at all?

Yuppiee....

[CosmicCowboy]

Poor nutrition? Smaller?

:wtf

You spend any time on the south-side at all?

Yuppiee....

LOL

The yuppie argument is they are fat because of poor nutrition.

[Marcus Bryant]

The same old song. The newest batch of immigrants won't assimilate, still hold allegiance to the old country, are somehow defective in mind and/or body, etc...

[LnGrrrR]

LOL

The yuppie argument is they are fat because of poor nutrition.

He said poor nutrition, not lack thereof. :lol

[Marcus Bryant]

Not that this particular group is necessarily a new immigrant group in these United States, but it appears to be so for many.

[Marcus Bryant]

But dammit, those faheeetuhs are tasty.

[Nbadan]

Holy Shit.......... there is tasty food on the South-side! ...shame you have to pay x2, x3 to get equally good food north of 410

....RG says Mexicans tend to be smaller! :lol

[Marcus Bryant]

I'm having Jap food tonight. So am I going to be shorter thereafter, or what?

[Nbadan]

I'm having Jap food tonight. So am I going to be shorter thereafter, or what?

No, but about an hour or two later you'll be 2 lbs lighter...