Marcus Jordan on twitter : It's an insult to my dad to compare Kobe to him

[MiamiHeat]

Marcus Jordan's twitter page :


NO ONE...And I mean NO ONE should EVER com par kobe Bryant to my dad an say that he is anywhere near close to my dad He's jagging this game

[FkLA]

He's right. MJ wouldnt have shot 20% in a deciding Game 7. MJ wouldnt have shot 40% in a Finals series.

[BRHornet45]

hate that spoiled bastard, but he speaks 100% truth with that

[Medvedenko]

He's right. MJ wouldnt have shot 20% in a deciding Game 7. MJ wouldnt have shot 40% in a Finals series.

He did homie, in 96.

LOL hitler mustache

[Koolaid_Man]

Marcus Jordan's twitter page :



http://twitter.com/SASBMJ



Tell Marcus he was only born because MJ decided not to cheat that night...

[sook]

hate that spoiled bastard, but he speaks 100% truth with that
LMFAO :lol:lmao

[HarlemHeat37]

It has always been an insult..Kobe severely lacks accolades/stats/big game performances when he's compared to Jordan..

[TE]

Tell Marcus he was only born because MJ decided not to cheat that night...

:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin

[DAF86]

Is there any Lakers fan here that actually bealives that Kobe can be compared to MJ?

[RsxPiimp]

Jordan is Jordan. Kobe is Kobe, both have their own legacy. Jordan is Top 3, Kobe is Top 10.



Marcus should'nt rag on Kobe's shooting though. His dad had a 5-19 performance in Game 6 of the 96 NBA Finals. Kobe's 15 rebound though was one of the game changer for the Lakers. They needed those rebounds as soon as Bynum went back to the bench. Gasol obviously can't do it alone down there.

[Medvedenko]

Is there any Lakers fan here that actually bealives that Kobe can be compared to MJ?

Yes Kobe's a better player and more complete. I don't base team accomplishments spanning over different era's versus differnt competition. If I go by pure talen its's 1A and 1b. You ask GM's, players and coaches alike and they all state this. Your opinion doesn't matter bud.

[jag]

Medvedenko used to be a decent poster...but now his blind Kobe homerism is just comical. Its hard to take him seriously. He's like lakaluva

[hitmanyr2k]

It would have helped Kobe A LOT if he had come up big in this game but the pressure clearly got to him big time. He ain't no Ginobili :lol

[Medvedenko]

Medvedenko used to be a decent poster...but now his blind Kobe homerism is just comical. Its hard to take him seriously. He's like lakaluva

Yes, you're right, I used to be, but I'm falling in line to the BS this forum has become in the last few years. No need to have serious debates with the assholes here. Maybe when the season starts....

[TheMACHINE]

Someone tell Marcus that his did is ashamed that he sucks.

[Jacob1983]

Did Jordan ever lose an NBA Finals?

[jag]

Yes, you're right, I used to be, but I'm falling in line to the BS this forum has become in the last few years. No need to have serious debates with the assholes here. Maybe when the season starts....

Now you're just being emo

[HarlemHeat37]

How would somebody have a "serious debate" with somebody that claims Kobe is equal to Jordan, and claims that Kobe just had an MVP-type performance?..

You're a typical Canadian Laker fan, you guys are all the same..

[TheMACHINE]

just give the jordan/kobe debate to Harlem..thats all he lives for right now. Its been a crappy 2 years for him.

[Jacob1983]

Did Jordan ever lose an NBA Finals? How many NBA Finals has Kobe lost?

[RsxPiimp]

How would somebody have a "serious debate" with somebody that claims Kobe is equal to Jordan, and claims that Kobe just had an MVP-type performannce??..

Its not a one game award. Step your game up.

[Sisk]

http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c54102/x2_1a76e99

[TheMACHINE]

Did Jordan ever lose an NBA Finals? How many NBA Finals has Kobe lost?

If Kobe wins 10 Finals out of 15, would you be even be bringing this shit up?

You're acting like a fucking Spurs fan who thinks going 100% in the finals is greater then winning 16 titles out of 31 times.

[FkLA]

He did homie, in 96.

LOL hitler mustache

96' finals went 7 games? i wont even go into comparing the guy that defended mj vs these guys defending kobe this series...mj still shot better btw.

lets play along though and assume youre right, kobe still has mj beat...remember his 30% shooting in 04'?

[Jacob1983]

100% > 52%

[JamStone]

Kobe is not and will never be Jordan.

But I don't see a problem with him "being in the conversation." Kobe will never come out as the better player or even as an equal player as Jordan. But he can enter the discussion. He'll always come short. He's really the only scoring wing player in the same mold as Jordan that could even be in the conversation. But yes, he isn't equal and certainly not better than the GOAT.

[JamStone]

100% > 52%

You think:

Chauncey Billups > Kobe Bryant

[RsxPiimp]

29 PPG/8 RPG/4 APG/2 SPG.

And the owner of the highest TS% in the series

[TE]

Yes Kobe's a better player and more complete. I don't base team accomplishments spanning over different era's versus differnt competition. If I go by pure talen its's 1A and 1b. You ask GM's, players and coaches alike and they all state this. Your opinion doesn't matter bud.




Your very word is pathetic. Do Spurstalk a favor and get off. Your talk is nonsense.

[jag]

Kobe is not and will never be Jordan.

But I don't see a problem with him "being in the conversation." Kobe will never come out as the better player or even as an equal player as Jordan. But he can enter the discussion. He'll always come short. He's really the only scoring wing player in the same mold as Jordan that could even be in the conversation. But yes, he isn't equal and certainly not better than the GOAT.

Many laker fans will not concede in this way. I know you hate MJ, so it says a lot that you can admit this. When laker fans build up Kobe into something he's not, it makes everyone else wanna see him brought back down to earth. Tonight was a perfect example.

[Smooth Criminal]

Is there any Lakers fan here that actually bealives that Kobe can be compared to MJ?
Nah, I did when I was younger...
I'm just fine with him being Kobe, I can enjoy the player he is now w/o having to compare him to others

[Amaso]

Did Jordan ever lose an NBA Finals? How many NBA Finals has Kobe lost?

That's a horrible argument. Would it be better if Kobe lost in the WCF instead of the finals in 2004 and 2008 so that Kobe is 5 for 5 in the finals?

No one is comparing Kobe to MJ, especially after his horrible offensive performance tonight. Hell, I don't think anyone even most Kobe fans is gonna even truly start to throw that argument out there until Kobe wins his 6th ring. Kobe is 2 rings away from legitimately having an argument against MJ. People need to realize how big of an addition 2 more rings would be to cementing Kobe's legacy. Kobe will never have the efficiency or the ppg stats that MJ has in the finals or even in the playoffs for that matter. Just look at how good these defenses are at swarming and making superstar players make incredibly hard shots. Handchecking was never removed from the game, it happens every single play and is rarely called, especially in the playoffs. Imagine Kobe going against Iso defense on the perimeter in all of these playoff games, his fg% would be around 50 in that case. He wouldn't be taking forced to take long 2s against double coverage when he really wants to get a shot attempt up.

Tonight's game he really played a bad offensive game, and these were the best looks hes gotten all series.

[Jacob1983]

There are several things that separate Jordan from Kobe. Jordan's stats and awards should on their own destroy any comparisons of himself to Kobe. There are other things like Jordan being the better leader and better teammate. Jordan was always the best player on his team and was always the main man. Jordan never lost an NBA Finals. Jordan dominated in the NBA Finals. How many times were the Bulls ever in danger of losing an NBA Finals?

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't use Jordan never losing a Finals series as an argument, it's weak IMO..losing in the Finals shouldn't be held against anybody, unless they perform like Kobe did in 2004..

There's just literally no possible argument for Kobe vs. Jordan though..he's severely lacking the accolades and stats..

[Smooth Criminal]

Many laker fans will not concede in this way. I know you hate MJ, so it says a lot that you can admit this. When laker fans build up Kobe into something he's not, it makes everyone else wanna see him brought back down to earth. Tonight was a perfect example.
I agree with JamStone 100%. But you're right many LA fans (Kobe fans really) have that problem and it really hurts Kobe's image more than it helps it

[FkLA]

That's a horrible argument. Would it be better if Kobe lost in the WCF instead of the finals in 2004 and 2008 so that Kobe is 5 for 5 in the finals?

No one is comparing Kobe to MJ, especially after his horrible offensive performance tonight. Hell, I don't think anyone even most Kobe fans is gonna even truly start to throw that argument out there until Kobe wins his 6th ring. Kobe is 2 rings away from legitimately having an argument against MJ. People need to realize how big of an addition 2 more rings would be to cementing Kobe's legacy. Kobe will never have the efficiency or the ppg stats that MJ has in the finals or even in the playoffs for that matter. Just look at how good these defenses are at swarming and making superstar players make incredibly hard shots. Handchecking was never removed from the game, it happens every single play and is rarely called, especially in the playoffs. Imagine Kobe going against Iso defense on the perimeter in all of these playoff games, his fg% would be around 50 in that case. He wouldn't be taking forced to take long 2s against double coverage when he really wants to get a shot attempt up.

Tonight's game he really played a bad offensive game, and these were the best looks hes gotten all series.

lol are u rly trying to suggest that defenses these day are tougher than the defenses mj faced?

[Smooth Criminal]

Why do people want to compare the two? The answer is clear. But still enjoy the greatness that is Kobe, a Top 10 player in the HISTORY OF THE GAME. Not the greatest, but one of, and close to the top

[Smooth Criminal]

lol are u rly trying to suggest that defenses these day are tougher than the defenses mj faced?
This is undeniable IMO, the zone/man hybrid defenses are beyond any defense from before zone was allowed. Boston is a monstrous defensive team. Just look at FG% from guards in the 80s and 90s compared to now. Do you honestly think guards have gotten that much worse since then? Or was it maybe better defense forcing tougher shots and more outside shots?

[Koolaid_Man]

Kobe is not and will never be Jordan.

But I don't see a problem with him "being in the conversation." Kobe will never come out as the better player or even as an equal player as Jordan. But he can enter the discussion. He'll always come short. He's really the only scoring wing player in the same mold as Jordan that could even be in the conversation. But yes, he isn't equal and certainly not better than the GOAT.


tell that bitch Marcus that Kobe will be closer to Jordan than he ever will be:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/Koolbreezey/0e28z35bypdf53y2.jpg

[Amaso]

lol are u rly trying to suggest that defenses these day are tougher than the defenses mj faced?

If you can name one team that was better defensively than these Lakers or Celtics that MJ played in the finals I'll concede the argument. I also mentioned the fact that defensive rules benefit players in the mold of the Kobe Bryant's or MJ's back then than it would now. Just look at Paul Pierce for example, the guy could get nearly any midrange look he wanted all series long, and even though he shot a poor % this series, those are the kind of looks you'd see MJ with in the 90s.

EDIT: Jamstone was right, the more you try to hype Kobe up, the harder people try to make him fall. MJ was my favorite player as a kid, and now Kobe is my favorite player. MJ is better than Kobe when you consider stats+legend+accomplishments. Talent level they are both roughly equal and I'd say it's fair to say in terms of "talent" Kobe would probably be everyone's pick. But basketball isn't all talent obviously.

[dbreiden83080]

jordan is better than Kobe

Most agree with this

[eyeh8u]

wade is closer to kobe than kobe is to jordan

[Blackjack]

Kobe is not and will never be Jordan.

But I don't see a problem with him "being in the conversation." Kobe will never come out as the better player or even as an equal player as Jordan. But he can enter the discussion. He'll always come short. He's really the only scoring wing player in the same mold as Jordan that could even be in the conversation. But yes, he isn't equal and certainly not better than the GOAT.

:tu

I'm not a fan of Kobe the man or the player but you're a fool if you don't respect his game. But his biggest problem (besides the insecurity that plagues him between the ears) is that he's not blazing a new trail or defining the game and his position in a new way. He's maybe the closest thing will ever see to Jordan, and even if he somehow managed to have it all click mentally and equal Jordan (it's never been about a lack of skill or physicality) he'd only be the second man to reach the peak of Everest or step foot on the moon.

Kobe's biggest problem when it comes to legacy is that the path he chose or the foundation he built his game upon had already been discovered and the blueprints had already been laid out -- and it just so happened it was done by the player widely believed to be the GOAT.

[hitmanyr2k]

If you can name one team that was better defensively than these Lakers or Celtics that MJ played in the finals I'll concede the argument. I also mentioned the fact that defensive rules benefit players in the mold of the Kobe Bryant's or MJ's back then than it would now. Just look at Paul Pierce for example, the guy could get nearly any midrange look he wanted all series long, and even though he shot a poor % this series, those are the kind of looks you'd see MJ with in the 90s.

Jordan was meeting physical defenses even before he got to the Finals. I think the Knicks defense of the 90's shits on Boston and LA's defense :lol They swarmed the hell out of Jordan and were a lot more physical in punishing the guy. Kobe never saw contact like this.

5K-qGWkiKvQ

[Smooth Criminal]

wade is closer to kobe than kobe is to jordan
Wade is a MFing beast. If he had a contending team he'd be considered Kobe's equal right now...depending on who won the title anyway

[Amaso]

Jordan was meeting physical defenses even before he got to the Finals. I think the Knicks defense of the 90's shits on Boston and LA's defense :lol They swarmed the hell out of Jordan and were a lot more physical in punishing the guy. Kobe never saw contact like this.

5K-qGWkiKvQ

I watched like 6 minutes of that video. So the Knicks trying to knock MJ to the floor is what you consider good physical defense? How does that affect field goal % again? And the entire video is just arrows pointing to all 5 Knicks players who are within 15 feet of MJ when MJ gets into the paint.

[JamStone]

:tu

I'm not a fan of Kobe the man or the player but you're a fool if you don't respect his game. But his biggest problem (besides the insecurity that plagues him between the ears) is that he's not blazing a new trail or defining the game and his position in a new way. He's maybe the closest thing will ever see to Jordan, and even if he somehow managed to have it all click mentally and equal Jordan (it's never been about a lack of skill or physicality) he'd only be the second man to reach the peak of Everest or step foot on the moon.

Kobe's biggest problem when it comes to legacy is that the path he chose or the foundation he built his game upon had already been discovered and the blueprints had already been laid out -- and it just so happened it was done by the player widely believed to be the GOAT.

Heard this type of argument before, actually recently. And don't buy it. Your argument boils down to the fact Jordan is better because he was born before Kobe.

"Blazing paths" or being the "first" isn't what really distinguishes Jordan from Kobe. It's just that Jordan was better. Period. Not because he was first. Not because Kobe comes after. Jordan was just better.

Allen Iverson and KG and Dirk are the types of players that are "trail blazers" or "first of their type of player." Unique and so different than players before them. But that fact alone wouldn't make you argue they are better than Kobe.

Jordan is just better than Kobe. Period. Not because he's first. Because he's better.

[Killakobe81]

Kobe is not and will never be Jordan.

But I don't see a problem with him "being in the conversation." Kobe will never come out as the better player or even as an equal player as Jordan. But he can enter the discussion. He'll always come short. He's really the only scoring wing player in the same mold as Jordan that could even be in the conversation. But yes, he isn't equal and certainly not better than the GOAT.

I have no problem saying MJ>Kobe hell Magic>Kobe ...

BUT HE is in the conversation ...


Oh yeah Marcus Jordan it's an insult that you carry your Dad's last name ...

As Mj said at the HOF "I hate to be you guy ..."

Muhahahahahha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

[024]

oh shit, jordan still made that dunk.

[eyeh8u]

Wade is a MFing beast. If he had a contending team he'd be considered Kobe's equal right now...depending on who won the title anyway

yep i think so, i hope stupid ass lebron signs with the heat, i really want to see that team go against the west's best.

[hitmanyr2k]

I watched like 6 minutes of that video. So the Knicks trying to knock MJ to the floor is what you consider good physical defense? How does that affect field goal % again? And the entire video is just arrows pointing to all 5 Knicks players who are within 15 feet of MJ when MJ gets into the paint.

I don't consider knocking Jordan to the floor good defense. But it'll make the guy think twice about going in the paint over and over :lol . And those arrows illustrated just how much attention he got. Whenever he even got near the free throw line he had the attention of the whole team waiting on him and on top of that they got away with more contact back then. I think Jordan would take seeing Ray Allen or Tony Allen on him rather than that Knicks defense anyday.

[Blackjack]

Heard this type of argument before, actually recently. And don't buy it. Your argument boils down to the fact Jordan is better because he was born before Kobe.

"Blazing paths" or being the "first" isn't what really distinguishes Jordan from Kobe. It's just that Jordan was better. Period. Not because he was first. Not because Kobe comes after. Jordan was just better.

Allen Iverson and KG and Dirk are the types of players that are "trail blazers" or "first of their type of player." Unique and so different than players before them. But that fact alone wouldn't make you argue they are better than Kobe.

Jordan is just better than Kobe. Period. Not because he's first. Because he's better.

No, you misunderstood. I said even if he manged to have it all click mentally (the biggest differentiation between the two is between the ears, IMO) he would only be the second to do it. He couldn't be considered better or his equal, even if technically he probably was the latter. That's all I was saying.

It's all about what drives the two's competitiveness that separates them, IMO. MJ was an ornery asshole who simply couldn't accept losing and would do whatever it took to get it done. Kobe's always been plagued by an immaturity and insecurity that prevents him from ever truly reaching that Jordan plateau. MJ, for all his faults, was genuine. He was what he was, for better or worse; there's always been a layer of fugazi at Kobe's foundation.

[TheMACHINE]

Well we know where Marcus gets his insecurity's from.

[Mikesatx]

MJ never had anywhere near the frontcourt Kobe has had with each title.

[TheMACHINE]

MJ never had anywhere near the frontcourt Kobe has had with each title.

woopty doo. Im sure MJ is happy with a top 50 player as his side kick.

[D2Procon]

MJ never had anywhere near the frontcourt Kobe has had with each title.

Nor does Kobe have anywhere near the backcourt Kobe has had with each title.

[namlook]

If Kobe wasn't comparable his son would not be all butthurt and defensive feeling the need to trash talk about his dad.

[Amaso]

I don't consider knocking Jordan to the floor good defense. But it'll make the guy think twice about going in the paint over and over :lol . And those arrows illustrated just how much attention he got. Whenever he even got near the free throw line he had the attention of the whole team waiting on him and on top of that they got away with more contact back then. I think Jordan would take seeing Ray Allen or Tony Allen on him rather than that Knicks defense anyday.

So what you're saying is the 90s defenses were better because players were afraid to go into the paint because they didn't want to get hit?

It doesn't matter how much attention you get when you're in the paint, both eras of defenses collapse on any player trying to get in the paint. You act like MJ had to face the legendary Knicks defense because they collapsed the paint! I remember watching those series, the Knicks were a great defensive team there's absolutely no doubt about that.

And you made another point that doesn't even make sense, you're just grasping at straws to try to defend MJ. Tony Allen is a better solo perimeter defender than anyone on those Knicks. It's not like MJ would be iso'd against Tony Allen in today's league, or against the Celtics. He'd be surrounded by the rest of the Celtics defenders.

Anyways, you're a good poster so I'll leave the rest of the debate go.

[JamStone]

No, you misunderstood. I said even if he manged to have it all click mentally (the biggest differentiation between the two is between the ears, IMO) he would only be the second to do it. He couldn't be considered better or his equal, even if technically he probably was the latter. That's all I was saying.

It's all about what drives the two's competitiveness that separates them, IMO. MJ was an ornery asshole who simply couldn't accept losing and would do whatever it took to get it done. Kobe's always been plagued by an immaturity and insecurity that prevents him from ever truly reaching that Jordan plateau. MJ, for all his faults, was genuine. He was what he was, for better or worse; there's always been a layer of fugazi at Kobe's foundation.

In between the ears is actually where Kobe is most like Jordan. Jordan was more dominant on the court. He put up better numbers. He was more efficient. He has more individual awards and honors. But Kobe's mental approach and will to win is where they are most alike.

Jordan would do anything to win... as long as it was on his terms. Just like Kobe. Look at game 6 of the 1996 NBA Finals. Similar. Look at game 6 of 1998 where Jordan put up 35 FGA. As long as it was on Jordan's terms, he'd do whatever it took to win. That's Kobe as well. The difference is that Jordan always won his way. He was always the alpha male, and once he started winning, he never could be touched after that.

[Spursfan092120]

This is undeniable IMO, the zone/man hybrid defenses are beyond any defense from before zone was allowed. Boston is a monstrous defensive team. Just look at FG% from guards in the 80s and 90s compared to now. Do you honestly think guards have gotten that much worse since then? Or was it maybe better defense forcing tougher shots and more outside shots?
The defensive game has changed since then. The hand check rule has made things much easier on guards nowadays.

[BullsDynasty]

Kobe will never be better than MJ nor will he ever ascend to that level due to his mediocrity for 3 years as the man of the team. That will forever be a stain in his legacy.

[Blackjack]

In between the ears is actually where Kobe is most like Jordan. Jordan was more dominant on the court. He put up better numbers. He was more efficient. He has more individual awards and honors. But Kobe's mental approach and will to win is where they are most alike.

I agree that they're very similar in their maniacal drive and will to win, but I strongly disagree that it comes from the same place. Again, Jordan knew who he was, what his strengths were and weren't, and he simply wouldn't be denied. He shot a higher percentage because he played more from the free-throw line down (Wade's game actually resembled MJ's game at it's best more than Kobe's, IMO -- Kobe's game resembles more of the late-'90's Jordan), in the post and didn't jack up the amount of threes Kobe does.

Kobe's drive has always come from an insecurity and a need for validation, IMO. He wasn't going to be Jordan, he was going to be better than him. He wasn't going to play to his strengths on the court and play the percentages, he was going to prove that he was simply better than everyone else; he was going to jack up those contested fadeaway threes or jumpers to prove a point. The way he was viewed or perceived meant more to him than winning as just another great player. It had to be on his terms and his terms didn't happen to coincide with sound decision making for his individual game or the team's. It had to be spectacular and better than everyone else. He had to one-up the GOAT, and he knew you couldn't do that by simply being who he was.


Jordan would do anything to win... as long as it was on his terms. Just like Kobe. Look at game 6 of the 1996 NBA Finals. Similar. Look at game 6 of 1998 where Jordan put up 35 FGA. As long as it was on Jordan's terms, he'd do whatever it took to win. That's Kobe as well. The difference is that Jordan always won his way. He was always the alpha male, and once he started winning, he never could be touched after that.

Again, the difference between their terms is where the differentiation lies.

Jordan's terms necessitated that he be the Alpha Dog and the ultimate decider of his team's fate, while Kobe's necessitated that he be the Alpha Dog and win in a fashion that was both aesthetically pleasing and otherworldly. He had to prove that conventional wisdom or the mere nature of the NBA game, as it pertains to team success, was something he had to overcome and not embrace; because, unlike Jordan, Kobe wasn't the genuine Alpha Male that commanded both a fear and respect. Kobe had all the tools and ability you'd find in a Alpha Male, but there's more to it than that.

It's really all falls right in line with that "it" factor. When you watched Jordan's interaction with his peers, almost from the minute he joined the league, and the way he was revered and feared throughout, that's the difference. Men wanted to be him, women wanted to be with him. He was THE MAN.

Kobe's respected and feared for his game but he's not the cult of personality or domineering individual Mike was. MJ simply had a mental edge over his opponents that I've never seen before and probably will never see again. He was the Genuine Article. Kobe's just got Genuine game.

I often wonder had Kobe been humbled at an early age the way MJ was and then been forced to go to college for a few years if he might've actually put it all together. Most that I've put forth could simply stem from immaturity and had he not been given and forced into the spotlight so early on, he just might've had a real chance to legitimately be said to be MJ's equal.

But then again, there's that "it" factor. And that simply can't be taught.

[Killakobe81]

I agree that they're very similar in their maniacal drive and will to win, but I strongly disagree that it comes from the same place. Again, Jordan knew who he was, what his strengths were and weren't, and he simply wouldn't be denied. He shot a higher percentage because he played more from the free-throw line down (Wade's game actually resembled MJ's game at it's best more than Kobe's, IMO -- Kobe's game resembles more of the late-'90's Jordan), in the post and didn't jack up the amount of threes Kobe does.

Kobe's drive has always come from an insecurity and a need for validation, IMO. He wasn't going to be Jordan, he was going to be better than him. He wasn't going to play to his strengths on the court and play the percentages, he was going to prove that he was simply better than everyone else; he was going to jack up those contested fadeaway threes or jumpers to prove a point. The way he was viewed or perceived meant more to him than winning as just another great player. It had to be on his terms and his terms didn't happen to coincide with sound decision making for his individual game or the team's. It had to be spectacular and better than everyone else. He had to one-up the GOAT, and he knew you couldn't do that by simply being who he was.



Again, the difference between their terms is where the differentiation lies.

Jordan's terms necessitated that he be the Alpha Dog and the ultimate decider of his team's fate, while Kobe's necessitated that he be the Alpha Dog and win in a fashion that was both aesthetically pleasing and otherworldly. He had to prove that conventional wisdom or the mere nature of the NBA game, as it pertains to team success, was something he had to overcome and not embrace; because, unlike Jordan, Kobe wasn't the genuine Alpha Male that commanded both a fear and respect. Kobe had all the tools and ability you'd find in a Alpha Male, but there's more to it than that.

It's really all falls right in line with that "it" factor. When you watched Jordan's interaction with his peers, almost from the minute he joined the league, and the way he was revered and feared throughout, that's the difference. Men wanted to be him, women wanted to be with him. He was THE MAN.

Kobe's respected and feared for his game but he's not the cult of personality or domineering individual Mike was. MJ simply had a mental edge over his opponents that I've never seen before and probably will never see again. He was the Genuine Article. Kobe's just got Genuine game.

I often wonder had Kobe been humbled at an early age the way MJ was and then been forced to go to college for a few years if he might've actually put it all together. Most that I've put forth could simply stem from immaturity and had he not been given and forced into the spotlight so early on, he just might've had a real chance to legitimately be said to be MJ's equal.

But then again, there's that "it" factor. And that simply can't be taught.

Good post. But stay away from the psychoanalytical bull shit.

No one knows what is in Kobe's or Jordan's mind. This is a LOT of conjecture on your part.

Unless you have a psych degree leave that to the professionals ...

[SevenX]

Who gives a shit about this stupid argument. We all know Jordan is better. I still would rather have Kobe over any other player right now on my team.

I'm just happy he helped out in other areas of the game when his offense was so shitty.

[Bukefal]

He is right of course, but he shouldn't even be saying it. Kobe is nowhere near Jordan and never will be. Kobe should not even deserve to be mentioned togethere with michael.

[MiamiHeat]

Lol

Kobe has picked Phil Jackson's mind to copy everything Jordan did. The way MJ practiced, the length of practices, game preparation, etc and etc.

Here's the fact :

Kobe has copied MJ and failed, no identity.

MJ was his own man.

Therefore, Kobe doesn't exist without MJ.

But since MJ invented MJ, he is obviously the basketball genius and God of basketball.

Whereas Kobe, just a talented mimic.

If you deny the fact that it's harder to CREATE MJ than to just copy MJ, then you are fucking stupid.

It takes a genius, a special once in a lifetime player to do that. MJ was that. Kobe is not.

[SevenX]

Lol

Kobe has picked Phil Jackson's mind to copy everything Jordan did. The way MJ practiced, the length of practices, game preparation, etc and etc.

Here's the fact :

Kobe has copied MJ and failed, no identity.

MJ was his own man.

Therefore, Kobe doesn't exist without MJ.

But since MJ invented MJ, he is obviously the basketball genius and God of basketball.

Whereas Kobe, just a talented mimic.

If you deny the fact that it's harder to CREATE MJ than to just copy MJ, then you are fucking stupid.

It takes a genius, a special once in a lifetime player to do that. MJ was that. Kobe is not.

So, before you posted this, were you sucking on MJ's dick, or did you give MJ's balls a hitler stache and proceed to lick his balls?

[RsxPiimp]

So, before you posted this, were you sucking on MJ's dick, or did you give MJ's balls a hitler stache and proceed to lick his balls?

Dude is just obviously trolling, everytime...best to not pay attention and I guarantee people like it will go away.:toast

[lebomb]

Look.............MJ is MJ, there is no other MJ. Kobe isnt MJ. MJ will always be MJ to everyone. Those who want others to be MJ know nothing about MJ. Because there is only one MJ. NO, Kobe isnt another MJ. Repeat after me. One MJ, one MJ, one MJ...........MJ is MJ!!!!! Period. :hat

[resistanze]

Who the fuck is Marcus Jordan. Sounds like an R&B singer.

[4down]

Nor does Kobe have anywhere near the backcourt Kobe has had with each title.

This.

[Blackjack]

Good post. But stay away from the psychoanalytical bull shit.

No one knows what is in Kobe's or Jordan's mind. This is a LOT of conjecture on your part.

Unless you have a psych degree leave that to the professionals ...

This reply leads one to believe that he didn't actually appreciate the post as he suggests but suggested as such to cushion the blow. To be respectful in his butthurt. :D

Of course it's conjecture. It's an opinion based on the way a particular player has comported and conducted himself. It's an opinion; something I made very clear, as at no time did I state as fact.

Common sense may not be common but it ain't something you need a degree for.

The Omnipotent One has spoken.

The gambler.

The psychologist ...





















...who purchased his degree on Craigslist.

[Killakobe81]

[QUOTE=Blackjack;4431539]This reply leads one to believe that he didn't actually appreciate the post as he suggests but suggested as such to cushion the blow. To be respectful in his butthurt. :D

Of course it's conjecture. It's an opinion based on the way a particular player has comported and conducted himself. It's an opinion; something I made very clear, as at no time did I state as fact.

Common sense may not be common but it ain't something you need a degree for.

The Omnipotent One has spoken.

The gambler.

The psychologist ...






















...who purchased his degree on Craigslist.[/QUOTE

I Genuinely thought your post was good.

I just hate bullshit conjecture of what is going through a player's mind or their motivations and such. Pet peeve of mine ...

I agree with a great deal of what you said.

But

you leave that part out it is much stronger argument ...

that statement makes it reek of bias ...

I know you sated IMHO but it's a message board we get that ...

[JamStone]

I'll put it this way. If Jordan was drafted by a team with Shaquille O'Neal joining at the same time, I don't think that makes Jordan's legacy any greater. In fact, I think it diminishes it. Jordan would similarly be labeled the second fiddle to Shaq. And similarly, Jordan's ego wouldn't allow the marriage to last. And Jordan would not go down as the GOAT.

To me, Jordan's situation didn't necessarily dictate his greatness. But Jordan's ego dictated his situation. So the claim is made that Jordan's teams necessitated him being the alpha male. Ok. But Jordan was never put on the same team with a talent as good or better than his, certainly not a dominant big man on which the perceived league success was predicated. I'd say with a guy like Hakeem, Jordan would have been option number 2. How those Bulls teams were constructed gave Michael Jordan the opportunity to become the greatest player of all time. Make no mistake about it, Jordan is the GOAT. Unquestionable. Undeniable. But factor in that situation. Kobe joined one of the most dominant centers of all time. Dominant big men are the most effective mismatch in basketball. It's how the league was built. Jordan never had to confront that power struggle. He never had to dance that tango.

If Kobe was given what Jordan was given, could he have done the same in that same era against that same competition? Probably not, not to the same degree of success anyway. But I don't know for sure. But, I truly believe if you give Jordan one of the most dominant big men ever, it doesn't help Jordan's greatness. It hurts it. He'd face the same power struggle. He'd face the same diminished statistical greatness. He'd face the same egocentric inner struggle he would have to temper in order for the team to win.

Situations were/are different. And that's why it's so hard to really say what is and what might be when you throw out scenarios trying to compare the two, especially when the discussion gets into trying to overly praise one or religiously try to discredit the other. I'm a Jordan hater and a Kobe apologist, so I do it all the time. But it happens vice versa as well.

[Blackjack]

I Genuinely thought your post was good.

I just hate bullshit conjecture of what is going through a player's mind or their motivations and such. Pet peeve of mine ...

I agree with a great deal of what you said.

But

you leave that part out it is much stronger argument ...

that statement makes it reek of bias ...

I know you sated IMHO but it's a message board we get that ...

Call it what you will but when the topic was posed, I simply stated my view.

As to not knowing what's going through someone's mind? Yeah, we never really know what's going through someone's mind. But it's not all that crazy to draw some conclusions as to the type of person someone is from their actions and by the way they conduct themselves.

I don't disagree with Jam that the situations and circumstances dictated an apples to oranges scenario in that respect, but my opinion basically comes down to the men they were and what that led them to be on the court.

Contrary to popular belief, you can have a great disdain for a person and player and still have a great respect for his game. This is the approach I've always had with Kobe. I'm not some Jordan fanboy trying to do whatever's in my power to discredit Kobe's claim to MJ's throne. If I honestly believed he was his equal or better, I'd tell you. But it seems with a lot of fans you're never going to get an honest debate if their guy is seemingly being dissed or diminished, which is a no-win proposition when you're telling someone their not as good as the GOAT; saying he's not as good as the greatest of all-time is somehow a slight because he's the loser of the argument.

I believe Kobe's most likely the second greatest 2-guard of all-time and a Top-10 player when it's all said and done, maybe better than that. So nothing I've said is about Kobe being inept or not worthy of being discussed with the greats, I just don't think there's any legitimate argument to say that he's better than MJ or his equal.

That's just my honest opinion.

[Killakobe81]

Call it what you will but when the topic was posed, I simply stated my view.

As to not knowing what's going through someone's mind? Yeah, we never really know what's going through someone's mind. But it's not all that crazy to draw some conclusions as to the type of person someone is from their actions and by the way they conduct themselves.

I don't disagree with Jam that the situations and circumstances dictated an apples to oranges scenario in that respect, but my opinion basically comes down to the men they were and what that led them to be on the court.

Contrary to popular belief, you can have a great disdain for a person and player and still have a great respect for his game. This is the approach I've always had with Kobe. I'm not some Jordan fanboy trying to do whatever's in my power to discredit Kobe's claim to MJ's throne. If I honestly believed he was his equal or better, I'd tell you. But it seems with a lot of fans you're never going to get an honest debate if their guy is seemingly being dissed or diminished, which is a no-win proposition when you're telling someone their not as good as the GOAT; saying he's not as good as the greatest of all-time is somehow a slight because he's the loser of the argument.

I believe Kobe's most likely the second greatest 2-guard of all-time and a Top-10 player when it's all said and done, maybe better than that. So nothing I've said is about Kobe being inept or not worthy of being discussed with the greats, I just don't think there's any legitimate argument to say that he's better than MJ or his equal.

That's just my honest opinion.


I agree I just dont think MJ is "untouchable" if someone wants to make that argument Kobe>Mj let them isnt that what sports is about?

I dont even mind the trolls CR and Miami heat doing it (hate on kobe or say MJ>>>>better) ...just leave it to basketball not motivations or mindset.

If you think MJ>Kobe based on stats use those ...I agree he has better stats

If you thinkMJ>Kobe based on titles ... agreed 6>5

just dont give me colorado, he is not likeable, or any moral arguments

OR

Psychoanlaysis ...about why he does what he does? Who knows even Phil could not figure out kobe at first.

If you judge sport debates simply by who you "like" better than in essence you are a woman ...or a child.

[Blackjack]

The Omnipotent One is neither woman nor child. He shits birth and eats existence. He is all.

[JamStone]

Accomplishments and statistics go down in stone. They are recoverable and viewable at a click of the mouse. Kobe will not ever touch Jordan in those two regards. Jordan will always be statistically greater. He will always be undefeated in the Finals. He will always be the more efficient shooter. It is essentially impossible for Kobe to win more League MVPs or Finals MVPs. Kobe simply will never be the greater player statistically or in terms of individual honors.

Kobe can only catch him in number of championships.

But I do think when people try to bring up the comparison, even though Kobe loses every time and should, it's a matter of comparing the two beyond simply statistics and accolades. That's why I mention the mentality and approach. Work ethic and will to win. Skills wise, Kobe is actually a slightly better jump shooter. I personally think he has better handles than Michael did. Kobe might even be the better play-maker in terms of creating for others. Thing is neither of them ever did it with much regularity. But those aren't necessarily quantifiable or tangible things. People will automatically go to their stats, their awards. And there's justification in that. Michael is simply greater.

When I do make the comparison, it's beyond that. I think physically, Kobe compares quite well with Jordan. Jordan was a slightly better athlete who jumped higher and had enormous hands, which allowed him to do things Kobe probably can't do. But it's not like Kobe is a slouch athletically. Skill-wise, I think Kobe is right there with Jordan. All the skills, the polish, the touch, the technique. I don't have a problem comparing Kobe to Jordan in that respect, none whatsoever. And I really do think Kobe has a comparable mentality and mental toughness and mental approach to the game and killer instinct. I think he falls right in line with how Michael approached the game. It's hard to provide evidence for that though.

At the end of the day, Kobe can't touch Jordan. He'll always be a mere copy. But I don't think it's such a bad thing to open a conversation comparing the two. There isn't another player in the NBA ever you really legitimately can other than Kobe.

[Blackjack]

Accomplishments and statistics go down in stone. They are recoverable and viewable at a click of the mouse. Kobe will not ever touch Jordan in those two regards. Jordan will always be statistically greater. He will always be undefeated in the Finals. He will always be the more efficient shooter. It is essentially impossible for Kobe to win more League MVPs or Finals MVPs. Kobe simply will never be the greater player statistically or in terms of individual honors.

Kobe can only catch him in number of championships.

But I do think when people try to bring up the comparison, even though Kobe loses every time and should, it's a matter of comparing the two beyond simply statistics and accolades. That's why I mention the mentality and approach. Work ethic and will to win. Skills wise, Kobe is actually a slightly better jump shooter. I personally think he has better handles than Michael did. Kobe might even be the better play-maker in terms of creating for others. Thing is neither of them ever did it with much regularity. But those aren't necessarily quantifiable or tangible things. People will automatically go to their stats, their awards. And there's justification in that. Michael is simply greater.

When I do make the comparison, it's beyond that. I think physically, Kobe compares quite well with Jordan. Jordan was a slightly better athlete who jumped higher and had enormous hands, which allowed him to do things Kobe probably can't do. But it's not like Kobe is a slouch athletically. Skill-wise, I think Kobe is right there with Jordan. All the skills, the polish, the touch, the technique. I don't have a problem comparing Kobe to Jordan in that respect, none whatsoever. And I really do think Kobe has a comparable mentality and mental toughness and mental approach to the game and killer instinct. I think he falls right in line with how Michael approached the game. It's hard to provide evidence for that though.

At the end of the day, Kobe can't touch Jordan. He'll always be a mere copy. But I don't think it's such a bad thing to open a conversation comparing the two. There isn't another player in the NBA ever you really legitimately can other than Kobe.

Very solid post and agree one-hundred percent with the bold. As a matter of fact, I don't think there's any doubt that Kobe's a better shooter and ballhandler than Jordan ever was. Phil always likes to talk about the biggest difference being MJ's mitts, and it's definitely an advantage, but they're actually quite comparable if you just look at the skills. MJ was a more explosive athlete but it wasn't by huge margins.

As I stated before, I agree that their maniacal drives and wills to win were comparable as well. But there's just always been a flaw in Kobe's psyche/mentality that has always deterred him from bridging the gap with MJ. It's that component that would have Kobe be a facilitator for halves at a time or simply not shoot as to prove a point. Games, playoff games, where he clearly felt the need to make or prove a point even if it cost the team and his opportunity to win. This is not psychobabble, this is tangible evidence that anyone who's watched the league for a good stretch of time can see.

Like you said, there are certain things that are unquantifiable that make a player better or different than the other. You just can't put it into words or find a statistic for it. And however close a player might be in all of the other aspects, whether it's skill, physicality, mentality or all of the above, that one little missing piece can create a gap that simply can't be closed.

How does one go about proving an opinion about the unquantifiable? Do you point to the fact that a player's a better shooter, yet shoots at a lower percentage with plenty of surrounding help? Maybe the inconceivable performances that have been coined "Weird Kobe" by a certain douchebag?

You're splitting hairs when you're comparing greatness at this echelon but there's legitimate reason to: MJ is the GOAT due to some quantifiable but more unquantifiable, IMO.

[JamStone]

Really good and really fair post.

[TDMVPDPOY]

jordan never took a 40pt beating in a finals game where his team needed him

[Kamnik]

hate that spoiled bastard, but he speaks 100% truth with that

+1

[Killakobe81]

Very solid post and agree one-hundred percent with the bold. As a matter of fact, I don't think there's any doubt that Kobe's a better shooter and ballhandler than Jordan ever was. Phil always likes to talk about the biggest difference being MJ's mitts, and it's definitely an advantage, but they're actually quite comparable if you just look at the skills. MJ was a more explosive athlete but it wasn't by huge margins.

As I stated before, I agree that their maniacal drives and wills to win were comparable as well. But there's just always been a flaw in Kobe's psyche/mentality that has always deterred him from bridging the gap with MJ. It's that component that would have Kobe be a facilitator for halves at a time or simply not shoot as to prove a point. Games, playoff games, where he clearly felt the need to make or prove a point even if it cost the team and his opportunity to win. This is not psychobabble, this is tangible evidence that anyone who's watched the league for a good stretch of time can see.

Like you said, there are certain things that are unquantifiable that make a player better or different than the other. You just can't put it into words or find a statistic for it. And however close a player might be in all of the other aspects, whether it's skill, physicality, mentality or all of the above, that one little missing piece can create a gap that simply can't be closed.

How does one go about proving an opinion about the unquantifiable? Do you point to the fact that a player's a better shooter, yet shoots at a lower percentage with plenty of surrounding help? Maybe the inconceivable performances that have been coined "Weird Kobe" by a certain douchebag?

You're splitting hairs when you're comparing greatness at this echelon but there's legitimate reason to: MJ is the GOAT due to some quantifiable but more unquantifiable, IMO.


I dont know if you can say it's tangible because again we dealing with mindstate a bit...but well thought out post.

Jamstone brought the goods as well

And i always respect intelligent well thought out debate.

I DO NOT think Kobe = to MJ
so I really dont care who "wins" (if anybody can win) I more care that people are willing to actually listen to a debate ...even if their favorite player is involved.

(I can make a good one for Magic>MJ even more so than Kobe)

But I know MJ is the GOAT so do most people ...I just want there to be healthy dialogue. IMHO shaq could of been the GOAT if he had the drive and determination of Kobe or MJ

Lebron COULD still pass them both ...

So lets take MJ off this pedestal because SOMEONE someday will pass MJ ...just not sure that person is born yet.

again lebron COULD but each passing year makes it more doubtful and who knows if he even catches Kobe or Magic let alone MJ ...

[Killakobe81]

jordan never took a 40pt beating in a finals game where his team needed him

Yep that is why MJ is > Kobe .... but why post this no one in here (lately) disputes that ...why don't you ADD something?

this is actually a good discussion.

Everyone agrees that MJ is better ...even his son! LOL

[TheMACHINE]

its ok not be as good as Jordan. nothing wrong with that. Marcus Jordan is going to be the next Michael Jordan!