lol the PG position

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

A teams' reliance on their PG just losing another championship, no surprises here. Good job being a selfish prick Rondo, while the other 29 starting PG's in the NBA are trying to rack up assists, Derek Fisher is saying 5 rings, faggot.

[sook]

Nash was the best PG all season long, but Rondo played AMAZING this finals series ok.

I hated the little goblin looking bastard up until this playoffs but he doesn't give up on a play, dude is all hard work.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Nash was the best PG all season long, but Rondo played AMAZING this finals series ok.

I hated the little goblin looking bastard up until this playoffs but he doesn't give up on a play, dude is all hard work.


Rondo lost his team the game today dominating the ball being an assist whore and making it impossible for Boston to run any halfcourt sets.

As far as Steve Nash, last I checked, teams that rely on him don't have any playoff success to show for it.

[JMarkJohns]

Yeah... it's a glamor position, but, as the statistics bear out, the best ones never win as the leader/best player on their team. Occasionally a PG dominates a series, but that's largely a matchup. The last "Great" PG to win was Thomas. Crazy. There have been so many greats since, yet none have rings as great players/best players on their team. Billups is as close as it got, and I maintain he is merely a very good player, not great.

[jag]

The other 29 pgs don't have gasol, Kobe, bynum, odom, artest and Phil. And neither does rondo. He was being asked to do too much....especially when Ray allen realized he has 34 year old legs.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Yeah... it's a glamor position, but, as the statistics bear out, the best ones never win as the leader/best player on their team. Occasionally a PG dominates a series, but that's largely a matchup. The last "Great" PG to win was Thomas. Crazy. There have been so many greats since, yet none have rings as great players/best players on their team. Billups is as close as it got, and I maintain he is merely a very good player, not great.


PG-oriented basketball doesn't win championships, at this point it's a proven theory. I didn't want the Lakers to win, but I guess them winning gives me the consolation prize of my theory being proven right again. The biggest role Rondo will ever have on a championship team is the role he had in 2008: a role player the team doesn't need on the court to close games.

[sook]

Rondo lost his team the game today dominating the ball being an assist whore and making it impossible for Boston to run any halfcourt sets.

As far as Steve Nash, last I checked, teams that rely on him don't have any playoff success to show for it.
you're right. Thats where derrick fisher steps in and claims the spot.

[JMarkJohns]

I once made the argument that forcing a pass was as detrimental as forcing a shot, and that selfish is selfish, no matter the stat. The logic was forced passes lead to deflections/steals which are almost always 2 points. You saw the flipside tonight, which was an active and effective 1st-half offense crawl to a halt and become ineffective for 20 of the 24 2nd-half minutes.

It sounds crazy, but I hate seeing forced passes, and I really do think they are as bad as forced shots.

[FkLA]

speaking of PGs...

Derek fucking Fisher. I hate the little faggot, but he should be allowed to play PG for the Lakers until his old ass legs fall off and Laker fans shouldnt complain one bit. He got so much shit this year but he came up huge in the playoffs yet again. Dude's all heart.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I once made the argument that forcing a pass was as detrimental as forcing a shot, and that selfish is selfish, no matter the stat.


You're damn right it's selfish no matter what, being an assist whore is no better than being a point whore. Stephon fuckin Marbury led the league in assists one year, that came from him being a ball dominant assist whore. The assist is maybe the most overrated statistic in basketball.

[DJ Mbenga]

last time a pg lead team won a title was what? 89 with isiah thomas?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

last time a pg lead team won a title was what? 89 with isiah thomas?


Yessir. Boston relying on Rondo to compensate for Pierce and Allen's age was only gonna get them so far. Game 7 of the NBA finals was further than I'd ever thought it would.

[JMarkJohns]

You're damn right it's selfish no matter what, being an assist whore is no better than being a point whore. Stephon fuckin Marbury led the league in assists one year, that came from him being a ball dominant assist whore. The assist is maybe the most overrated statistic in basketball.

I was actually comparing Marbury to Kidd. I wasn't complimentary of either. I cited Kidd's League-leading TOs, terrible FG% and failure in the playoffs vs. the West and compared it to Marbury's low A/TO ratio, terrible FG% and failure in the playoffs.

I don't like PGs who can't shoot, and I don't like PGs who force passes. Extending to the current, I cringe whenever I see Nash drive into the lane. I know either 1. An amazing pass occurs, 2. a TO occurs, or 3. that terrible step-back fade jumper occurs.

Keep it simple. Run precise plays, hit open shots, drive open lanes, make the smart pass. This equals efficiency and stability, which is what you need from you PG. Double-teams/FTs generation you need from you SG or SF and you big.

[Medvedenko]

Let's see a line up of:

Paul Pierce
Ray Allen
Kevin Garnett
Rasheed Wallace
Rajon Rondo

All winners and all great players couldn't get over the hump.

[sook]

allen was useless.

Pierce was useless except for 2 games.

Garnett was surprisingly the only consistent one.

Big Baby and Rondo were their best players.

Ironic.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Keep it simple. Run precise plays, hit open shots, drive open lanes, make the smart pass. This equals efficiency and stability, which is what you need from you PG. Double-teams/FTs generation you need from you SG or SF and you big.


Pretty much, furthermore you also need enough talent at SG-C so you're PG can be someone who provides stability and doesn't create any offense. Using the PG to try and cover up the deficiencies of your SG, SF, PF and C is a gimmicky trick that will always fall apart at the wrong time.

[JMarkJohns]

Garnett wasn't consistent, and he was terrible on the boards almost every game.

[crc21209]

A teams' reliance on their PG just losing another championship, no surprises here. Good job being a selfish prick Rondo, while the other 29 starting PG's in the NBA are trying to rack up assists, Derek Fisher is saying 5 rings, faggot.

Wow..really? This loss isnt on Rondo...it was on the boards and lack of Offense in the 4th...

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

lack of Offense in the 4th...


Which had everything to do with Rondo

[sook]

Which had everything to do with Rondo

your hating. Whats with these crazy expectations out of every PG DoK? Am i missing something? :lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

your hating. Whats with these crazy expectations out of every PG DoK? Am i missing something? :lol


I'm not hating. It's pretty hard to score when the PG is dominating the ball and leaving the team with no time to run a halfcourt set. Rajon Rondo was looking to make the fancy assist all night when he shoulda been looking to make the simple play and keep the offense flowing like Fisher does.

And I'm waiting for a PG to prove me wrong and lead a team to a championship, but I know that's not happening anytime soon. The PG position is an overrated position that's filled with selfish, cocky, one dimensional players who are touted for their great willingness to share the ball when their unwillingness to share the ball is why their teams always come up short.

[crc21209]

I'm not hating. It's pretty hard to score when the PG is dominating the ball and leaving the team with no time to run a halfcourt set. Rajon Rondo was looking to make the fancy assist all night when he shoulda been looking to make the simple play and keep the offense flowing like Fisher does.

And I'm waiting for a PG to prove me wrong and lead a team to a championship, but I know that's not happening anytime soon. The PG position is an overrated position that's filled with selfish, cocky, one dimensional players who are touted for their great willingness to share the ball when their unwillingness to share the ball is why their teams always come up short.

Rondo is anything but selfish, cocky, and one dimensional. You're fucking kidding me. Rondo is one of THE best PG's in the league. Sure he might not have a jumpshot or FT shot yet but he does all the intagible things you could ask for in a player...hustle, plays D, and even rebounds for a PG....

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Rondo is anything but selfish, cocky, and one dimensional. You're fucking kidding me. Rondo is one of THE best PG's in the league. Sure he might not have a jumpshot or FT shot yet but he does all the intagible things you could ask for in a player...hustle, plays D, and even rebounds for a PG....


Offensively he's one dimensional where has he is absolutely useless unless the ball is in his hands. If he doesn't have the ball, his defender gets to float off him and play free safety. I'm not singling Rondo out here, I hate all these "top tier PG's" who are constantly touted for all the stuff they can do yet none of them have ever accomplished jack shit in the playoffs.

[sook]

hes one of the top 5 defenders in the league. And probably one of the more complete PGs when it comes to scoring and assists.

He started shit with the rox a couple of yrs back but he's won me over.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

One thing Rondo is not is a complete, he can't make a shot further than 7 feet from the hoop.

[crc21209]

Offensively he's one dimensional where has he is absolutely useless unless the ball is in his hands. If he doesn't have the ball, his defender gets to float off him and play free safety. I'm not singling Rondo out here, I hate all these "top tier PG's" who are constantly touted for all the stuff they can do yet none of them have ever accomplished jack shit in the playoffs.

He's still a young player...his game will evolve as years go by. Now you, a Suns fan shouldnt be talking about one dimensional players..when you have your PG Steve Nash who only plays on one side of the ball...

[sook]

One thing Rondo is not is a complete, he can't make a shot further than 7 feet from the hoop.

hes gotten a lot better, and notice i said scorer. Dude can get to the basket.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

He's still a young player...his game will evolve as years go by. Now you, a Suns fan shouldnt be talking about one dimensional players..when you have your PG Steve Nash who only plays on one side of the ball...


:lmao reading comprehension fail. You don't have to tell me twice about Nash being a one dimensional player. Like I said, I hate all these "top tier PGs", and last I checked Nash is considered a top tier PG.

[crc21209]

:lmao reading comprehension fail. You don't have to tell me twice about Nash being a one dimensional player. Like I said, I hate all these "top tier PGs", and last I checked Nash is considered a top tier PG.

Well exactly...but you just said "top tier PGs," you didnt mention which ones you were talking about...or call out your own PG for that matter, you just pointed fingers at other ones..

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Well exactly...but you just said "top tier PGs," you didnt mention which ones you were talking about...or call out your own PG for that matter, you just pointed fingers at other ones..



As far as Steve Nash, last I checked, teams that rely on him don't have any playoff success to show for it.


Maybe that's not calling him out so I can see what you mean. I've eased up on him recently, but I've called out Nash plenty since I've been on here, pretty much any NBA forum regular would agree that I have.

[crc21209]

Maybe that's not calling him out so I can see what you mean. I've eased up on him recently, but I've called on Nash plenty since I've been on here, pretty much any NBA forum regular would agree that I have.

Oh alright my bad...didnt see that post about Nash. :lol

[redzero]

No, Rondo is just overrated. Put Williams or Paul on the Celtics and they would have won.

[chubster]

Did I just wake up inside a bizarro world this morning? A Suns fans created a thread to degrade the point guard position, as in the position Steve Nash plays in.

[redzero]

Did I just wake up inside a bizarro world this morning? A Suns fans created a thread to degrade the point guard position, as in the position Steve Nash plays in.

DoK hates Steve Nash and is disillusioned with the idea of building a team around a point guard due to his team's constant failure promising season after promising season.

I think he's just overreacting.

[pauls931]

Rondo lost his team the game today dominating the ball being an assist whore and making it impossible for Boston to run any halfcourt sets.

As far as Steve Nash, last I checked, teams that rely on him don't have any playoff success to show for it.

No, Allen shooting 3-14 and essentially allowing the Laker D to do whatever they wanted cost them the game. Rondo did just fine.

[Thomas82]

Yeah... it's a glamor position, but, as the statistics bear out, the best ones never win as the leader/best player on their team. Occasionally a PG dominates a series, but that's largely a matchup. The last "Great" PG to win was Thomas. Crazy. There have been so many greats since, yet none have rings as great players/best players on their team. Billups is as close as it got, and I maintain he is merely a very good player, not great.


I agree 100% with this post. That's why I have always said that you build a championship team from the inside out.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

DoK hates Steve Nash and is disillusioned with the idea of building a team around a point guard due to his team's constant failure promising season after promising season.

I think he's just overreacting.

Show me an example from the last 20 years that proves me wrong.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

No, Allen shooting 3-14 and essentially allowing the Laker D to do whatever they wanted cost them the game. Rondo did just fine.


You'd have to be blind to not see the countless possessions last night where Rondo took forever to initiate the offense. Yeah, of course you look at the stat sheed and think Rondo did fine, but there isn't a stat that accounts for dominating the ball till there's8 seconds left on the shot clock and then passing it off to someone so they have to rush a shot.

[Goran Dragic]

Le Tony Parker.


Tony Parker, when the Spurs were winning championships, was a scoring PG who IMO was always the 3rd best player on those teams, it was always Manu taking the closing shots, it was never Parker. Either way, no one thinks he ever led a team to a championship, and he was never a high volume assist player on those championship teams. His role was to score.

[Goran Dragic]

So are you basically asking for PGs who are known to distribute and their "fancy" assists and dont have that score first mentality?

That will never happen. Its either PGs who know their role and dont stop the flow of offense(Fisher) or PGs who score(Parker)


That's my point. High volume assist PGs don't win championships.

[Vertical]

Rondo needs a jumpshot...hire Chip Engelland.

[redzero]

Show me an example from the last 20 years that proves me wrong.

Show me an example of a team being hampered by having an elite point guard.

The Celtics didn't lose because Rondo was being an assist whore; they lost because he sucks. The dude can't hit an open jumper to save his life.

[Killakobe81]

Yeah... it's a glamor position, but, as the statistics bear out, the best ones never win as the leader/best player on their team. Occasionally a PG dominates a series, but that's largely a matchup. The last "Great" PG to win was Thomas. Crazy. There have been so many greats since, yet none have rings as great players/best players on their team. Billups is as close as it got, and I maintain he is merely a very good player, not great.

Great point. I think people forget how special he was ...

[Killakobe81]

Show me an example of a team being hampered by having an elite point guard.

The Celtics didn't lose because Rondo was being an assist whore; they lost because he sucks. The dude can't hit an open jumper to save his life.

dude does not suck.

But he is a unique player that excels at things most PG's struggle with defneding the paint, Rebounding and help defense.

but he ALSO struggles with the basic tenets of PG play:

1. Protect the rock
2. Make the simple play
3. Make FT's since PG's are ball dominant they should be at WORSE your 2nd best FT shooter
4. Hit open jumpers on kick outs
5. Develop a solid 18-20 foot jumper

Rondo is a great PG prospect but still lacking too many people jumped on his nuts at this point offensively he i not as good as Tony parker who worked on his jumper.

Defensively he is good but needs to gamble less ...

[Goran Dragic]

Show me an example of a team being hampered by having an elite point guard.


I can show you countless examples of a team hampering itself by deciding to build itself around an elite PG. I'm not saying the Celtics are a better team without Rondo, I'm saying the Celtics hurt themselves by becoming a team that has a SG who plays completely off ball with a PG who has the ball in his hands all the time. If Ray Allen doesn't start the game shooting well, the only way he's able to get a rhythm is by trying to shoot himself out of it by chucking enough 3's. While age has obviously played a role, reducing Allen to a guy who's role on offense is someone who does nothing other than catch and shoot has hurt his game. Reducing Quentin Richardson to that role on the Suns in 2005 more or less destroyed his career.

[Killakobe81]

DoK hates Steve Nash and is disillusioned with the idea of building a team around a point guard due to his team's constant failure promising season after promising season.

I think he's just overreacting.

Maybe.

But since Magic and Isiah ...it's been all centers (Duncan, hakeem, Shaq)

or

dynamic wings: (Wade, kobe jordan)

winning titles ...

Yes we have two great exceptions: 2008 Celtics and 2004 Pistons

But one hd 3 HOF'ers and the other had a HOF coach and a perfect blend of borderline all-stars and well defined role players.

[Goran Dragic]

but he ALSO struggles with the basic tenets of PG play:

1. Protect the rock
2. Make the simple play
3. Make FT's since PG's are ball dominant they should be at WORSE your 2nd best FT shooter
4. Hit open jumpers on kick outs
5. Develop a solid 18-20 foot jumper

Stuff Fisher does. Having a PG who can do the simple things like the stuff you listed is more key than having a PG who can make fancy passes and drop 15 assists.

[Goran Dragic]

Maybe.

But since Magic and Isiah ...it's been all centers (Duncan, hakeem, Shaq)

or

dynamic wings: (Wade, kobe jordan)

winning titles ...

Yes we have two great exceptions: 2008 Celtics and 2004 Pistons

But one hd 3 HOF'ers and the other had a HOF coach and a perfect blend of borderline all-stars and well defined role players.

The combination of Ray Allen and Pierce was the equivalent to that of a dynamic wing such as Wade or Kobe. I know people might argue the 2004 Pistons were led by a PG because Billups won finals MVP, but that had more to do with the fact you could pick and roll the 2004 Lakers to death with Shaq at center and Slava Medvedenko at PF. Any Pistons fan on this site will tell you that team was built on all 5 starters being equally important where no one held onto the ball and the extra pass was always made.

[Killakobe81]

Stuff Fisher does. Having a PG who can do the simple things like the stuff you listed is more key than having a PG who can make fancy passes and drop 15 assists.

I feel ya Dragic ...but Nash does most of those (extremely well) maybe except #1 on this list ...

of course he also sucks at the stuff Rondo is good at:

cant defend the paint or play much defense ...

I think those are Nash's worse offenses as a PG

No BS I think Dragic has a LOT of potential and though he maybe a prick when he sees sasha needs to get a chance to run a team.

[redzero]

Stuff Fisher does. Having a PG who can do the simple things like the stuff you listed is more key than having a PG who can make fancy passes and drop 15 assists.

Fisher is a role player. That's all he has to do for his team to succeed. Kobe, Gasol, Odom and Artest do all the dirty work on that team.

Rondo failed because he can't do those things consistently.

[mindcrime]

Fisher is a role player. That's all he has to do for his team to succeed. Kobe, Gasol, Odom and Artest do all the dirty work on that team.

Rondo failed because he can't do those things consistently.

So why has CP3 failed time and time again?

[redzero]

So why has CP3 failed time and time again?

Chris Paul never had three hall of famers on his team and a defensive genius as an assistant coach.

[Ghazi]

What a ridiculous thread

[Goran Dragic]

What a ridiculous thread


What's ridiculous about it, it's been proven right time and time again.

[DPG21920]

This is so dumb.

[Ghazi]

ridiculous because teh Celtics had all the tools to win a title this year. They were just as good as LA, but in a 7 game series one team has to win 4. They came up a few plays short.

Also, they're really not a PG oriented team in the same mold of CP3's Hornets, Deron's Jazz or Nash's Suns. They're just a true... team. An ensamble with 4 guys who can appear as the best player on a given night. No top 10 players, yet was within a few plays of defeating 4 teams featuring the 4 best players in the game en route to a title.

Just because something didn't happen doesn't mean it was never possible... IE KG winning a title as the best player on a team, some would've thought it impossible until 2008.

[Goran Dragic]

This is so dumb.


Yet you have no way to prove it wrong.

[Goran Dragic]

They were just as good as LA, but in a 7 game series one team has to win 4.


And it was the team that relied on its PG less than the other team.

[Ghazi]

Celtics were reliant on Ray allen not shooting 3-27 in Games 3 and 6...

Only flaw w/ Rondo is his lack of jump shot.

If you swap Rondo and Fisher Lakers win in 5 instead of 7.

Rondo is a ballerPERIOD

[Goran Dragic]

Celtics were reliant on Ray allen not shooting 3-27 in Games 3 and 6...

Only flaw w/ Rondo is his lack of jump shot.

If you swap Rondo and Fisher Lakers win in 5 instead of 7.

Rondo is a ballerPERIOD


Ray Allen shot like shit because he plays with a selfish ball hog who makes it impossible for Ray Allen to get in a rhythm because all he can do on offense is catch and shoot jumpers, he never gets any chances to get a shot at the rim. Is it just a coincidence no one knew who Marcus Thornton was till Chris Paul got injured and he had a chance to get touches?

Call Rondo a baller all you want, his biggest role on a championship team will never be anything more than a role player who is often on the bench during critical minutes.

[Ghazi]

:rolleyes

Allen's best game this series was also Rondo's best game when Rondo took the most shots. Allen sucked cause he ... sucked.

Let us proceed...

[Goran Dragic]

:rolleyes

Allen's best game this series was also Rondo's best game when Rondo took the most shots. Allen sucked cause he ... sucked.

Let us proceed...

You really prove you are not capable of doing anything more than judging a stat sheet. You have to be blind to not notice the countless possessions Rondo fucked up by holding onto the ball too long and then dumping it off to Pierce or Allen where they were isoed with the ball with like 5 seconds left on the shot clock.

[Ghazi]

Rondo didn't make Allen go 3-27 in Games 3 and 6.... motherfuckin 11%...go 5 of 27 and the Celtics might be world champions, and that aint no lie.

You said before the series '10 Celtics > '08 Celtics.. I disagreed, but whyd you think that when it was obvious they were more reliant on Rondo this year than then? Cant say 'I told you so now', dokstrodamus.

Celtics had trouble generating offense no matter what they tried last night... even when Pierce was the primary ball handler.

Rondo's only flaw is his lack of jump shot. To say his only role ona title team is as a role player is ridiculous considering how close the Celtics just came.

[Goran Dragic]

Rondo didn't make Allen go 3-27 in Games 3 and 6.... motherfuckin 11%...go 5 of 27 and the Celtics might be world champions, and that aint no lie.

You said before the series '10 Celtics > '08 Celtics.. I disagreed, but whyd you think that when it was obvious they were more reliant on Rondo this year than then? Cant say 'I told you so now', dokstrodamus.

Celtics had trouble generating offense no matter what they tried last night... even when Pierce was the primary ball handler.

Rondo's only flaw is his lack of jump shot. To say his only role ona title team is as a role player is ridiculous considering how close the Celtics just came.

I never said '10 > '08 Celtics, quit being retarded, that makes no sense. The '08 Celtics were deeper and Pierce, Allen and KG were all still playing at a high level.

And yes, Rondo did make Ray Allen shoot like shit. If Rondo didn't dominate the ball, Ray Allen gets more touches and more shots at the rim to get a rhythm going. Because of Rondo, the only chance Allen got to get going was quick release catch and shoot jumpers.

[Ghazi]

I'm pretty sure I've said in the past (when bashing CpWhistle) that PG's generally don't lead teams to titles... but this Celtic team in particular wasn't so reliant on Rondo that this claim can be used against them... they were a true ensemble... reminds me of the 2004 Pistons who won it all without a top 10 player. Billups was a co #1 option w/ rip/sheed

This team had all the tools.

[Goran Dragic]

Rondo's only flaw is his lack of jump shot. To say his only role ona title team is as a role player is ridiculous considering how close the Celtics just came.


Given your habit of constantly equating close but no cigar championships to actual championships, I fully expected this comment from you, and my response is simple: Boston didn't win a championship this year, they lost.

[Cane]

The Lakers length can really mess up an offensively limited and relatively small PG like Rondo. Older players can afford to hang out back and try to make up for their lack of athleticism with fundamental or pesky defense.

You can leave Rondo wide open or hack him in the paint without worrying too much about the scoreboard. The Lakers also have Kobe Bryant and Artest that are defending the permieter...and they both got great deflection/stealing ability + size and having 7 footers to back them up.

However without an all-star PG the Celtics wouldn't have been in the Finals much less a few points from winning a game 7.

Derek Fisher proved to be another case of the on/off switch since his play elevated from the reg season to the playoffs. He can play annoying defense on Allen, knows how to pace and play in the playoffs, uncanny flopping ability all over the court, able to get calls/charges, and still hits big shots. In the regular season he's going to get destroyed though and prove to be much more of a liability.

When it comes to winning basketball its still about fundamentals, defense, teamwork, and size. But I agree that the PG position isn't the one you really want to build around since basketball will always be a big man's game if the talent level is about equal.

It also sucks to rely on players that can be liabilities on one end of the court since guys like Rondo and even Dwight Howard have pretty disappointing and limited offensive games for being premier NBA players. Its also a lot easier to expose blatant weaknesses during the course of the playoffs and if a guy sucks at FT's and shooting in general...that makes it easier to defend.

[Ghazi]

too lazy to find the '10 Celtics > '08 Celtics claim.

Anyway, the Celtics were initially built around KG

Also, "close but no cigar" counts for something... just because something didn't happen doesn't mean it is impossible. This is pretty simple logic. Otherwise KG would never have won a title as the best player on a title team, and LeBron will never win a title.

[DPG21920]

:lol "yet to prove it wrong". You say teams with ball dominant point guards don't win. Tony Parker finals MVP. Rondo was in Game 7 of the NBA finals as his teams best player throughout the playoffs. That is winning.

[Ghazi]

Numberghazstrodamus: Rondo's useage rate this year was in the same ballpark and lower than Parker in '03, '05, and '07 and Billups in '04.

[DPG21920]

Also, ask yourself this. If you swap Rondo with Fisher, so the Celts have Fish and LA has Rondo, does LA lose? If not, then this makes no sense.

[D-Wade #3]

Of course DoK is hating, Rondo was almost a pHOENIX SUN

[Goran Dragic]

:lol "yet to prove it wrong". You say teams with ball dominant point guards don't win. Tony Parker finals MVP. Rondo was in Game 7 of the NBA finals as his teams best player throughout the playoffs. That is winning.


Tony Parker won finals MVP as a scoring PG. Cut the bullshit, don't even try to say for a second he was a ball dominant PG, plus he was the 3rd best player on his team who win finals MVP against the worst team to ever reach the finals.

[Goran Dragic]

Of course DoK is hating, Rondo was almost a pHOENIX SUN


Wrong, the Suns never planned on drafting Rondo. Try again init2winit.

[DPG21920]

LOL now you want to throw out qualifiers. TP, for a PG, dominates the ball a good amount. The offense is designed around that partially.

"Worst team ever to reach a finals"...........So. It just punched a hole in your stupid theory.

[D-Wade #3]

Wrong, the Suns never planned on drafting Rondo. Try again init2winit.

That makes Sarver even more of a dumbass, congrats mr 0 & 41

[Basileus777]

Rondo was a huge liability in this series, he simply killed the Celtics half-court offense. He doesn't even need to be guarded when he has the ball in his hands, which is simply amazing for a point guard. He's a point guard, and the offense gets utterly crippled because he's handling the ball. Kobe was free to roam around, play help defense, and crash the defensive boards all series because Rondo is a non-factor in half-court sets.

He's excellent on the fast break, is a good rebounder and help defender and excels at disrupting the passing lanes, but he's so limited in other areas of the game. He's not really an elite point guard and has no business being compared to Paul, Williams, or Nash.

[Goran Dragic]

Also, ask yourself this. If you swap Rondo with Fisher, so the Celts have Fish and LA has Rondo, does LA lose? If not, then this makes no sense.


No, it makes perfect sense, I never said Boston would be better without Rondo, I said their over reliance on Rondo to create shots for other players would kill them. LA is set up such that they can win while getting absolutely no creating from their PG. The point is, teams that rely on their PG to create a bunch of easy shots fall apart in the playoffs.

[Ghazi]

Goran, I just wanna say I agree with the gist of what youre saying that players like Nash, Paul, and Williams even probably cannot be the best player on a title team... but I don't think Rondo's role in Boston was like theirs on their respective teams. :)... he is not as ball dominant as them.

Rondo had his share of shitty possessions yesterday, but so did a lot of players on both teams. Kobe, the primary ball handler for the Lakers, was worse than Rondo last night.

[Goran Dragic]

LOL now you want to throw out qualifiers. TP, for a PG, dominates the ball a good amount. The offense is designed around that partially.

"Worst team ever to reach a finals"...........So. It just punched a hole in your stupid theory.


Not in 2007 it wasn't. Since the Spurs decided to design their offense around Parker being a ball dominater, they've been a non-contender.

[DPG21920]

No, it makes perfect sense, I never said Boston would be better without Rondo, I said their over reliance on Rondo to create shots for other players would kill them. LA is set up such that they can win while getting absolutely no creating from their PG. The point is, teams that rely on their PG to create a bunch of easy shots fall apart in the playoffs.

It does not matter what position it is, teams have ball dominant players that other guys rely on. Whether that is a PG, SG or what ever.

[Goran Dragic]

That makes Sarver even more of a dumbass, congrats mr 0 & 41


Yeah, what a dumbass Sarver was for not wanting a player who no knew about coming out of college. Why the hell are you acting like Rondo was some can't miss prospect in 2006? Almost all NBA scouts had Marcus Williams ranked as a better PG, it was a huge shock when Rondo went before Williams.

[Goran Dragic]

It does not matter what position it is, teams have ball dominant players that other guys rely on. Whether that is a PG, SG or what ever.


And when other players rely on the PG to dominate the ball and create shots, that team will always lose.

[DPG21920]

Not in 2007 it wasn't. Since the Spurs decided to design their offense around Parker being a ball dominater, they've been a non-contender.

That is a flat out lie. The offense has been more focused on TP as of late, but he was always a vital part.

I guess Manu's injuries and Duncan declining have nothing to do with the contender status.

You are just picking out one thing, being selective in your qualifiers and dismissing all other things. It is a little silly, imo.

[DPG21920]

And when other players rely on the PG to dominate the ball and create shots, that team will always lose.

No. Almost every team relies on a guard to create shots for them.

[Goran Dragic]

That is a flat out lie. The offense has been more focused on TP as of late, but he was always a vital part.

I guess Manu's injuries and Duncan declining have nothing to do with the contender status.

You are just picking out one thing, being selective in your qualifiers and dismissing all other things. It is a little silly, imo.


They have a ton to do with it. San Antonio has had to rely on Parker more to make up for Duncan's decline and Manu's injuries, and it hasn't worked for them in the playoffs.

I never denied the fact Parker was a vital part, but in 2007 the offense was still unquestionably built around Duncan, and it was always Manu taking the big shots at the end of games. I never said the PG can't be a vital part, but he can't be the focus of the offense. In 2008, Rondo was a role player, and now he's become the focus of the offense. That obviously has to do with the decline of the big 3, but whatever it has to do with, the point is making Rondo the focal point of the offense to compensate for the big 3's decline was a strategy that didn't work.

[Goran Dragic]

No. Almost every team relies on a guard to create shots for them.

I said PG, not shooting guard. The Lakers don't rely on a PG to create anything.

Yes or no, could the 2007 San Antonio Spurs win games when Parker had little to no assists? The Celtics have a very little chance at winning games unless Rondo racks up assists, and that's a large reason why they came up short. In 2007, Parker averaged 5.5 assists. Not a bad number, but not a number that says San Antonio relied on Parker's creating ability, because in 2007, they didn't.

[DPG21920]

Yes they could. But the Spurs are deceptive with assists. They did not rely on assists, but they relied on TP's ball dominant penetration. They have a lot of 'hockey assists". So could Boston if PP played better along with Ray Allen. Rondo got Ray the ball just fine. Ray did nothing with the ball in his hands. PP did very little. Once again, if you want to cling to semantics and say "they did not win", ok. But they were in the NBA finals game 7 against a team with ridiculous talent.

That same Rondo offense got them all the way there. How on Earth can you classify that as losing basketball. In fact it was 7 minutes away from being NBA Champion level basketball.

How did they get through all of those other teams?

[Pelicans78]

Thornton was doing well before CP3's injury. He was even starting 3 games before CP3 got hurt. Collison dominates the ball just as much if not more than CP3.

[Goran Dragic]

Yes they could. But the Spurs are deceptive with assists. They have a lot of 'hockey assists". So could Boston if PP played better along with Ray Allen. Rondo got Ray the ball just fine. Ray did nothing with the ball in his hands. PP did very little. Once again, if you want to cling to semantics and say "they did not win", ok. But they were in the NBA finals game 7 against a team with ridiculous talent.

That same Rondo offense got them all the way there. How on Earth can you classify that as losing basketball. In fact it was 7 minutes away from being NBA Champion level basketball.

How did they get through all of those other teams?


All those other teams were just as flawed as Boston if not more, and they all woulda lost to LA. Orlando's reliance on Jameer Nelson was exposed, and Cleveland was just a great matchup for Rondo because Mo Williams sucks at defense. They were very close to winning it all, yes, but their reliance on Rondo had everything to do with why they collapsed in the 2nd half, it's a reoccuring theme to see PG oriented offenses collapse in the 2nd half of critical games.

[Goran Dragic]

If you put Steve Nash on the Lakers, do they still win?


Yeah, but that doesn't prove anything. Nash would be a spot up shooter on LA who plays off ball.

[DPG21920]

So you are saying, essentially, that only a triangle offense wins.

[Goran Dragic]

So you are saying, essentially, that only a triangle offense wins.

Nope, I'm saying an offense that isn't built around a PG wins (however IMO it's much easier to win in the playoffs if your team has enough talent at SG, SF, PF and/or C that you don't need any offense from your PG). There are situations like 2004 when Billups had a matchup to exploit in the finals because of how bad LA's pick and role D was, but offenses where the PG carries a tremendous load aren't reliable at big moments.

[redzero]

Is it just a coincidence no one knew who Marcus Thornton was till Chris Paul got injured and he had a chance to get touches?

1.) Marcus Thornton didn't play at first because Byron Scott didn't play him (one of the reasons that he was fired).
2.) He and Darren Collison are the ONLY Hornets wings in the last three years other than Paul who can get their own shot.
3.) Collison is almost as ball dominant as CP3, and Thornton plays with Collison the majority of the time.

Horrible example.

After those two, we have straight up jumpshooters like Peja, Mo Pete, and Posey, who can't get their own shot.

[Killakobe81]

My thing is Rondo was a very polarizing player in the playoffs 2nd only to Kobe ...

Some media guys and Celt fans argued he was the best PG in the NBA ...

Others (myself included) recognized his gifts: (wingspan, rebounding, speed activity
level)

BUT FELT his weaknesses: FT's, range, high turnovers, sucks in half-court offense
hurt more than his strengths help ...


Maybe Rondo improves and that changes but for now he is not a top 5 PG


And out of the top 5 I think only Nash and Dwill can be effective without the ball in their hands on offense ....

[mojorizen7]

I completely agree that building around "elite" PG's is a recipe for ultimate fail...history says so for the most part.Like another poster said,build it from the inside out.

However,Rajon Rondo is a BEAST and IMO he's only gonna get better offensively.
Right now Rondo is surrounded by an aging core of great players and i can't fault the young man for trying to make plays....he's still got alot to learn but the kid is simply a hard working tough little SOB who can do ALOT of things for you.

I want Rondo on my team and i think i can win championships with him @ PG as long as i've got an "elite" low post player too. Rondo/Allen is an outstanding backcourt IMO and it'd be THE model if i was to put together a basketball team.

[sook]

why do you post in the same thread with the same troll dok?

[Armando]

Rondo did what he could game 7 is not on him. Pierce and Allen did not play all that great. KG was mostly outplayed by Gasol. Also not having Perkins hurt them on the boards.

[Booharv]

DoK appears to be mad that Nash came to the Suns and made them relevant again.

Weird.

[Giuseppe]

That makes Sarver even more of a dumbass, congrats mr 0 & 41

I don't wish to be anal, but, it's mr O & 42.

tee, hee.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

DoK appears to be mad that Nash came to the Suns and made them relevant again.

Weird.


The Suns can just as easily not win championships without him as they can with him.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Why do you dislike Nash so much DoK?


This thread is more about my disdain for the PG position in general and how overrated its importance is when the results speak for themselves. I don't hate Nash personally at all anymore, but I hate the Suns' persistent stupidity in trying to build around a PG.