Worst competitive balance in major sports?

[LnGrrrR]

With the Lakers win, that makes five titles in ten years, and seven trips. Not to mention the Spurs 4 titles in the last near-decade.

So, is it a truth tha the NBA has surpassed the MLB for least competitive? Does anyone think a team like the Raptors even has a shot next year?

[Goran Dragic]

Yeah, the NBA salary cap is a joke. Until they put a hard salary cap in place like the NFL, it's going to be the Lakers' title to lose every year.

[pauls931]

Sorta, just hot markets draw the best players and if they may the playoffs, make more money to afford better players. Having owners with money is nice too.

[Giuseppe]

Yep, the floodgates were torn off their hinges last night by Artest. An infinite peat is ours for the taking.

Let us proceed...

[pauls931]

Yeah, the NBA salary cap is a joke. Until they put a hard salary cap in place like the NFL, it's going to be the Lakers' title to lose every year.

Let me get this right. There is a cap, but if you go over it you pay 'luxury tax'. Right? So if a team is loaded, they probably make enough extra money in playoff games/merchandise to eat the tax and outspend other teams, right?

[Chieflion]

Let me get this right. There is a cap, but if you go over it you pay 'luxury tax'. Right? So if a team is loaded, they probably make enough extra money in playoff games/merchandise to eat the tax and outspend other teams, right?

Yep. Thus it will never end. The lockout better resolve all of this crap.

[Goran Dragic]

Let me get this right. There is a cap, but if you go over it you pay 'luxury tax'. Right? So if a team is loaded, they probably make enough extra money in playoff games/merchandise to eat the tax and outspend other teams, right?


Correct, while in the NFL, there's a salary cap all teams need to be under by the start of the season.

[Giuseppe]

Right.

Instead of bitching now, get on your protest and get the rules changed so when we're sitting here again next year tied with the Celtics and you're at O & 43, I won't have to remind you to protest and the get the rules changed before we surpass the Celtics and you go to O & 44.

Understand rubberband?

[Trainwreck2100]

Correct, while in the NFL, there's a salary cap all teams need to be under by the start of the season.

In order to get the hard cap you'd need to lose guaranteed contracts, that won't happen any time soon

[Goran Dragic]

In order to get the hard cap you'd need to lose guaranteed contracts, that won't happen any time soon


Fortunately the shitty economy is the one thing that might lead to it happening.

[Giuseppe]

Yer all up to your asses in alligators.

ha, ha.

[Goran Dragic]

Non-guaranteed contracts is more me just finding it stupid how players get to play half assed till their contract year and then play hard. Wouldn't you like to be able to cut Luke Walton and Sasha Vujacic right now Cully?

[Giuseppe]

Non-guaranteed contracts is more me just finding it stupid how players get to play half assed till their contract year and then play hard. Wouldn't you like to be able to cut Luke Walton and Sasha Vujacic right now Cully?

No. The victory last night precludes changes to the core, and the bench, aside from Farmar and Morrison, who's contracts have exhausted themselves naturally.

You default to the static for at least another year. Don't fix which ain't broke.

[Goran Dragic]

No. The victory last night precludes changes to the core, and the bench, aside from Farmar and Morrison, who's contracts have exhausted themselves naturally.

You default to the static for at least another year. Don't fix which ain't broke.


Meh that attitude is how teams don't repeat imo. The same coulda been said last year but LA knew they needed to improve if they wanted to repeat so they upgraded at SF. I've always agreed with you that Fisher should be the starter there as long as he's able to walk since he's the only PG in the NBA Kobe trusts, but I can see LA using the MLE to get a PG who can play major minutes during the regular season and be groomed as Fisher's replacement so Fish is fresh for the playoffs. They could also add a veteran C so their lack of depth at big man doesn't make them rely on Bynum staying healthy.

[Giuseppe]

Meh that attitude is how teams don't repeat imo. The same coulda been said last year but LA knew they needed to improve if they wanted to repeat so they upgraded at SF. I've always agreed with you that Fisher should be the starter there as long as he's able to walk since he's the only PG in the NBA Kobe trusts, but I can see LA using the MLE to get a PG who can play major minutes during the regular season and be groomed as Fisher's replacement so Fish is fresh for the playoffs. They could also add a veteran C so their lack of depth at big man doesn't make them rely on Bynum staying healthy.

C'mon, if Ariza hadn't been a free agent we'd a never made a change. I'm honest enough to admit that.

[DarkReign]

The NBA is the only league where upsets rarely happen. #8 Warriors beat the #1 Mavs a couple years back, but thats the only example.

There is no competitive balance in the NBA. The ultra-soft and convoluted cap certainly doesnt help, either.

But really, all the non-luxury tax teams cant bitch too much, theyre the ones benefitting from the luxury tax teams.

The NBA is the MLB-Lite. Minus a game mechanic like pitching that can equal any playing field. If a team has excellent pitching and defense, anything can happen. Not so much in the NBA.

Side note: Last night was the ugliest Game 7 of any sport I have ever witnessed. Congrats to the Lakers though for coming back down 3-2 in the series and a 13 pt deficit. They earned it, Boston choked it away at the end.

[LnGrrrR]

Right.

Instead of bitching now, get on your protest and get the rules changed so when we're sitting here again next year tied with the Celtics and you're at O & 43, I won't have to remind you to protest and the get the rules changed before we surpass the Celtics and you go to O & 44.

Understand rubberband?

Hey, I didn't bitch until after the title, did I? :lol Now that the season is over, I'm all for looking at ways to fix the balance of the league. (Also, now that the Celtics are old and about to be non-title contenders. Yup, I'll admit it.)

[Goran Dragic]

C'mon, if Ariza hadn't been a free agent we'd a never made a change. I'm honest enough to admit that.

If they had Ariza instead of Artest they don't repeat, plain and simple, do you agree? Either by accident or not, they made that improvement and that's why they repeated. Ariza instead of Artest doesn't force Paul Pierce into the wildly inconsistent series he had, while it allows for Boston to switch Pierce onto Kobe at times since Ray is perfectly capable of guarding Ariza while Artest woulda exploited his lack of size.

If Ariza hadn't been a free agent they still woulda used their MLE on someone, possibly they still use it on Artest since as you said Artest is what got Odom to resign. I still can't believe I have to fathom another year of LA being defending champions, but I respect how little complacency that organization shows. The Suns lose in the 2nd round in 2007 and take the attitude that they're happy with their team, and the Lakers win it all in 2009 and take the attitude to make opportunistic improvements so they can repeat.

[2Cleva]

It has more to do with the impact a single star can make combined with a best of 7 series instead of one and done.

[Giuseppe]

Hey, I didn't bitch until after the title, did I? :lol Now that the season is over, I'm all for looking at ways to fix the balance of the league. (Also, now that the Celtics are old and about to be non-title contenders. Yup, I'll admit it.)

No, you waited a couple hours, Ln.

And I don't know what you're panicked about. If you'd a had Perkins for the last two games I'd be kicked off by The Princess by now and you'd be fat & happy.

Heal Perkins.

Rondo's evolvement is just beginning. His upside is infinite. He's still learning. You want to trade him? Pick anybody not named Kobe and you can have him. That includes Gasol.

[Killakobe81]

No. The victory last night precludes changes to the core, and the bench, aside from Farmar and Morrison, who's contracts have exhausted themselves naturally.

You default to the static for at least another year. Don't fix which ain't broke.

IDK Cully to get a 3-peat we make a minor change.

For REPEATING having a key guy even a sub that has yet to taste that champagne ...is IMPORTANT.

I also think if Farmr leaves we need a PG ...

Luke may retire as well...

Bring back Fish, get a young PG for him to mentor

Re-sign shannon Brown play him more and start reducing kobe's minutes in the regular season ..

[Killakobe81]

No, you waited a couple hours, Ln.

And I don't know what you're panicked about. If you'd a had Perkins for the last two games I'd be kicked off by The Princess by now and you'd be fat & happy.

Heal Perkins.

Rondo's evolvement is just beginning. His upside is infinite. He's still learning. You want to trade him? Pick anybody not named Kobe and you can have him. That includes Gasol.

Cully i love you man... but you must be drunk off the bubbly.

I would NOT trade rondo for Pau!!

dude cant hit FT's ...

his jumper sucks ass ...

Now dont get me wrong that hurt him against us and maybe he improves he is STILL young ...

But he is a HORRIBLE fit in the triangle as the group is put togteher ...

ALso you want a shooter at PG for flor spacing ...teams would crowd the paint and play off Rondo ...

JUST LIKE we just did in THESE finals ...

I would have to use my veto powers ...Cully ...

Bynum for rondo? Probably

[Killakobe81]

If they had Ariza instead of Artest they don't repeat, plain and simple, do you agree? Either by accident or not, they made that improvement and that's why they repeated. Ariza instead of Artest doesn't force Paul Pierce into the wildly inconsistent series he had, while it allows for Boston to switch Pierce onto Kobe at times since Ray is perfectly capable of guarding Ariza while Artest woulda exploited his lack of size.

If Ariza hadn't been a free agent they still woulda used their MLE on someone, possibly they still use it on Artest since as you said Artest is what got Odom to resign. I still can't believe I have to fathom another year of LA being defending champions, but I respect how little complacency that organization shows. The Suns lose in the 2nd round in 2007 and take the attitude that they're happy with their team, and the Lakers win it all in 2009 and take the attitude to make opportunistic improvements so they can repeat.

agree with Dragic no way we win a series THAT physical without RonRon ...

[tlongII]

Yep, the floodgates were torn off their hinges last night by Artest. An infinite peat is ours for the taking.

Let us proceed...

There's a team in the Great Northwest that will soon put an end to this charade!

[Giuseppe]

There's a team in the Great Northwest that will soon put an end to this charade!

Forget it, t, yer white bread.

We're unbeatable now.

The world is our oyster. We're truly at the precipice of something very special in all of sports.

[tlongII]

Forget it, t, yer white bread.

We're unbeatable now.

The world is our oyster. We're truly at the precipice of something very special in all of sports.

Nah, yer wrong Cully. We're the one team that can beat you. It's all about size and we've got it in spades. We just need a little health. Our time is coming...

[Goran Dragic]

They should just let Farmar leave regardless. He threw away several possessions holding onto the ball too long. Sucks for LA they traded Toney Douglas because he'd be the perfect PG for them to groom under Fisher, but if they could get a guy like Ridnour or Felton for the MLE and a backup C like Kurt Thomas for the LLE, they'd be stacked for next year.

[Killakobe81]

Nah, yer wrong Cully. We're the one team that can beat you. It's all about size and we've got it in spades. We just need a little health. Our time is coming...

LOL Blazers and health ...

to let some of the haters tell it ... God loves the Lakers and strikes down key players so the Lakers road to a title is less cluttered ...LMAO

and if that doesnt work his underling stooge Stern instructs the refs to bail us out!!!!

[Killakobe81]

Back to OP' point

Yes the NBA is "old money" league and to be honest it is why the Spurs deserve SOOOOO much credit.

Yes they tanked twice to get the twin Towers

BUT even after David left they kept winning and they arent one of the power old money franchises ...

Knicks
Lakers
Celtics
Bulls
Sixers

they talk about the lakers/Celts have more than half the NBA titles you add those traditional Big city teams and it's much worse ...

Spurs have overcome a lot of odds to get that 4 yall owe Duncan and Pop a WHOLE lot

[Goran Dragic]

Well part of me thinks that there are basketball gods who love LA. I don't see very many other teams who have players like Ron Artest fall into their lap willing to leave their egos at the door, take paycuts and do whatever it takes to help the team win.

[SomeCallMeTim]

With the Lakers win, that makes five titles in ten years, and seven trips. Not to mention the Spurs 4 titles in the last near-decade.

So, is it a truth tha the NBA has surpassed the MLB for least competitive? Does anyone think a team like the Raptors even has a shot next year?

I see a lot of griping in this thread about the NBA's competitive balance, but I don't think it has as much to do with the CBA as people think. I just think basketball as a sport lends itself to fewer upsets. As many people have said, the best team overwhelmingly tends to win a 7-game series.

Superstars in the NBA have a tremendous amount of influence over the outcome of games. A superstar in the NBA plays 40+ minutes and plays both offense and defense... he also only has 4 other teammates on the floor. Compare that with baseball where the best pitchers only pitch about 20% of their team's innings and they either don't hit at all or suck at it. And hitters get at most about 15% of their team's PAs and the best ones can have the bat taken out of their hands by intentional BBs.

Baseball is much more of a crapshoot. Its competitive imbalance is much more because of its random nature than its CBA. The baseball CBA sucks. The disparity in NBA team salaries is nothing compared to the disparity in baseball, where there have been seasons where the Yankees were outspending the lowest-salaried team ten times over.

Take a look at NBA team salaries -- the disparities simply aren't that great. And the Raptors don't have a chance because the front office has made terrible moves and drafted/acquired bad players, not because they don't have money to spend. They've spent it on dodgy players like Bargnani, Hedo, and co.

[SomeCallMeTim]

Well part of me thinks that there are basketball gods who love LA. I don't see very many other teams who have players like Ron Artest fall into their lap willing to leave their egos at the door, take paycuts and do whatever it takes to help the team win.

This is true.

However, remember how many people were predicting Ron would be the Lakers' undoing?

It was no sure thing he'd end up fitting in pretty well. The Lakers took a huge risk bringing him in.

Because of the results of Game 6 and 7 he comes up smelling roses, but it was just last week there were "We miss Ariza" and "Trevor > Ron" threads after Crazy Bill stunk up the joint and couldn't hit jack from the field.

[pauls931]

This is true.

However, remember how many people were predicting Ron would be the Lakers' undoing?

It was no sure thing he'd end up fitting in pretty well. The Lakers took a huge risk bringing him in.

Because of the results of Game 6 and 7 he comes up smelling roses, but it was just last week there were "We miss Ariza" and "Trevor > Ron" threads after Crazy Bill stunk up the joint and couldn't hit jack from the field.

If Phil could handle Rodman, he can handle Artest. Same formula, have a dominate player that will smack him down if he gets out of line.

[Killakobe81]

This is true.

However, remember how many people were predicting Ron would be the Lakers' undoing?

It was no sure thing he'd end up fitting in pretty well. The Lakers took a huge risk bringing him in.

Because of the results of Game 6 and 7 he comes up smelling roses, but it was just last week there were "We miss Ariza" and "Trevor > Ron" threads after Crazy Bill stunk up the joint and couldn't hit jack from the field.

That wasnt me. Pierce raped us in '08 evene worse than his numbers showed ...

Seeing Ron do an even better job defending then what PP's numbers showed was all I asked ...

[Killakobe81]

They should just let Farmar leave regardless. He threw away several possessions holding onto the ball too long. Sucks for LA they traded Toney Douglas because he'd be the perfect PG for them to groom under Fisher, but if they could get a guy like Ridnour or Felton for the MLE and a backup C like Kurt Thomas for the LLE, they'd be stacked for next year.

any chance we can get Dragic from the suns? LOL

I alwys like that guy but the guy i really wanted (Realistic chance to have)was George hill

Lakers LOVED him Spurs stole him ...

[pauls931]

any chance we can get Dragic from the suns? LOL
...

Give Sarver a briefcase with some cash in it and he's yours.

[j.dizzle]

Holy shit I dont even wanna imagine the rebounding difference in this series if Bynum didnt have a torn ligament. He was beasting in the first few games & then the knee just couldn't handle the constant pressure & travel..Nobody beating LA in the west if they sign a few legit players comin off the bench. Peace out shannon brown & farmar, it was fun while it lasted lol. Maybe Ray Ray will sign for a few million hahaha he would have nothing but WIDE open jumpers all day long.

[j.dizzle]

Give Sarver a briefcase with some cash in it and he's yours.
LOL money hungry faggot, that fucker doesnt care for titles if he's putting extra money in his pocket & filling up the arena.

[Killakobe81]

Give Sarver a briefcase with some cash in it and he's yours.


LOL I know the suns thread about Sarver is buried but what is it with that guy?

And Kerr Must know the ship is sinking ...

Curious what they will do with Amare

What do you Suns fans think will hapen what do you WANT to happen?

[Goran Dragic]

any chance we can get Dragic from the suns? LOL

Not as long as Sasha Vujacic is on LA :lol

Phil tried to trade for him his rookie year when everyone thought he sucked, because as bad as he looked you could see potential in him. The way things are going with the Suns though, I wouldn't be surprised if Nash is traded at the deadline or sooner and the team goes into full rebuilding mode. I suspect Nash and Hill will have little interest finishing their career on the Suns once Amare leaves and once Gentry has one foot out the door waiting for a team that'll give him a payday.

He'd be like the perfect fit for LA though, he's unselfish, moves great without the ball, has no problem making the simple play, and is a good catch and shoot threat. His game lends itself to being on the court with a stud 2-guard.

[Killakobe81]

Not as long as Sasha Vujacic is on LA :lol

Phil tried to trade for him his rookie year when everyone thought he sucked, because as bad as he looked you could see potential in him. The way things are going with the Suns though, I wouldn't be surprised if Nash is traded at the deadline or sooner and the team goes into full rebuilding mode. I suspect Nash and Hill will have little interest finishing their career on the Suns once Amare leaves and once Gentry has one foot out the door waiting for a team that'll give him a payday.

He'd be like the perfect fit for LA though, he's unselfish, moves great without the ball, has no problem making the simple play, and is a good catch and shoot threat. His game lends itself to being on the court with a stud 2-guard.

I like his game he reimnds me of a younger smaller Manu in some ways ...

And i knew PJ liked him.

How will a nash trade go down in phoenix? Guy won 2 MVP's had a great year all in all strong Game 6 in WCF

[Goran Dragic]

I like his game he reimnds me of a younger smaller Manu in some ways ...

And i knew PJ liked him.

How will a nash trade go down in phoenix? Guy won 2 MVP's had a great year all in all strong Game 6 in WCF


Well, once Amare leaves, and once Frye + Amundson follow him out the door, and then when they don't sign anyone to replace them, and then when Gentry has no real interest staying with a team that has no interest in giving him a capable roster, Nash is probably gonna quietly but firmly say to Sarver please trade me you cheap sack of shit.

[pauls931]

Well, once Amare leaves, and once Frye + Amundson follow him out the door, and then when they don't sign anyone to replace them, and then when Gentry has no real interest staying with a team that has no interest in giving him a capable roster, Nash is probably gonna quietly but firmly say to Sarver please trade me you cheap sack of shit.

If it comes to that, I hope he shows up in Portland.

[LnGrrrR]

No, you waited a couple hours, Ln.

And I don't know what you're panicked about. If you'd a had Perkins for the last two games I'd be kicked off by The Princess by now and you'd be fat & happy.

Heal Perkins.

Rondo's evolvement is just beginning. His upside is infinite. He's still learning. You want to trade him? Pick anybody not named Kobe and you can have him. That includes Gasol.

Yes, but we won't have thibodeaux coaching the D which is a big blow. Also, we would have to make sure we kept everyone healthy. Two big factors.

[LnGrrrR]

Tim, I know the comparative money diff is small, but small market teams do win out at times in the MLB, as does happen in the NBA. However, even in baseball you haven't had one team dominate since the late 90s Yankees.

Is this sort of imbalance desirable? I'd argue that it isn't. Look a who's been in the semifinals the past half decade. It's almost always the same 3 or 4 teams. For the west, lakers/mavs/spurs/suns, for the east, Boston/magic/cavs/pistons.

Is it that the front offices are so much better? Or do guaranteed contracts out a crappy franchise in a hole for much longer than they should be?

[VBM]

The Suns lose in the 2nd round in 2007 and take the attitude that they're happy with their team, and the Lakers win it all in 2009 and take the attitude to make opportunistic improvements so they can repeat.

My main gripe with the Spurs front office is this...so bent on letting the same title team have a chance to repeat instead of seeking out upgrades. Granted, their market affects the ability to do this (see the swing-and-a-miss in 2003 on Jason Kidd and Jermaine O'Neal).

[Ghazi]

There is parity in the league. It is not as if the Lakers blitzed to a title this year. The 3-peat from 00-02 has no bearing on today.

Since its a superstar driven league the top players will generally find themselves not only winning a title but multiple titles (Duncan, Kobe, Shaq)... you could say the league lacked competitive balance in the 90's too, considering it was a Bulls bukkake fest.

But there is still parity in the league. Orlando/Cleveland/Boston/LA were in the same tier this year. LA just came out on top by a hair.

[Ghazi]

you wanna see competitive imbalance? wait till lebron comes to dallas, jesus... fuck.

[TampaDude]

Back to OP' point

Yes the NBA is "old money" league and to be honest it is why the Spurs deserve SOOOOO much credit.

Yes they tanked twice to get the twin Towers

BUT even after David left they kept winning and they arent one of the power old money franchises ...

Knicks
Lakers
Celtics
Bulls
Sixers

they talk about the lakers/Celts have more than half the NBA titles you add those traditional Big city teams and it's much worse ...

Spurs have overcome a lot of odds to get that 4 yall owe Duncan and Pop a WHOLE lot

Yeah...Duncan was never flashy, just quietly dominant, and Pop did more with less than any other coach in the NBA...PJ included. Even if the Spurs never win another title in my lifetime (heaven forbid!), we'll always have that glorious time known as the Tim Duncan era. To think, we were a miracle shot and a stupid foul away from possibly FIVE-peating. Oh, well...I'll savor the :lobt2: :lobt2: :lobt2: :lobt2: no matter what. There's plenty of teams in the NBA still looking for their first.

[TampaDude]

you wanna see competitive imbalance? wait till lebron comes to dallas, jesus... fuck.

You just won't let that fantasy die, will ya??? :lmao

[mavsfan1000]

Don't forget to add to that the refs make the champions even tougher to handle.

[SomeCallMeTim]

There is parity in the league. It is not as if the Lakers blitzed to a title this year. The 3-peat from 00-02 has no bearing on today.

Since its a superstar driven league the top players will generally find themselves not only winning a title but multiple titles (Duncan, Kobe, Shaq)... you could say the league lacked competitive balance in the 90's too, considering it was a Bulls bukkake fest.

But there is still parity in the league. Orlando/Cleveland/Boston/LA were in the same tier this year. LA just came out on top by a hair.

Ghazi gets it.

[SomeCallMeTim]

Tim, I know the comparative money diff is small, but small market teams do win out at times in the MLB, as does happen in the NBA. However, even in baseball you haven't had one team dominate since the late 90s Yankees.

Is this sort of imbalance desirable? I'd argue that it isn't. Look a who's been in the semifinals the past half decade. It's almost always the same 3 or 4 teams. For the west, lakers/mavs/spurs/suns, for the east, Boston/magic/cavs/pistons.

Is it that the front offices are so much better? Or do guaranteed contracts out a crappy franchise in a hole for much longer than they should be?

Looking at how many teams have been in the conference finals seems like a good way to judge how many contenders there have been recently. I'd call five seasons "recently" and that list would be:

Boston
Cleveland
Dallas
Denver
Detroit
Los Angeles
Miami
Orlando
Phoenix
San Antonio
Utah

That's 11 teams filling 20 slots. I'd call that pretty decent parity, especially because the NBA is a talent- and superstar-driven league. Not a relatively random sport like baseball where inferior teams win the WS regularly.

I'm in favor of guaranteed contracts because I think the NFL system is unfair to players in a high-risk sport.