Tired of hearing Kobe = or > MJ

[stretch]

LOL Kobe Lovers comparing him to Jordan need to cool it. Kobe is great. Top 5 all-time, no question about it. But the MJ comparisons still need to stop, and here are just a FEW reasons why…

Numbers - Career wise, MJ has better scoring, offensive/defensive rebound, assist, steal, block, turnover averages. Also far superior in FG%, having 6 seasons shooting over 50% from the field, something Kobe has never even come close to (his best being 46.9%). So basically with the exception of 3pt shooting (Kobe being 1.3% better) and FT shooting (Kobe being .2% better), MJ statistically is superior to Kobe in every possible aspect. And in the playoffs, MJ is again considerably superior to Kobe in every single stat except 3pt% (only behind by .5%)

Accolades – MJ got 6 rings as the clear cut leader of a team. Kobe has 2 as the clearcut leader of a team, 5 total. Impressive either way, but obviously 6>5 no matter what. 6 Finals MVPs for MJ, 2 for Kobe. 5 NBA MVPs for MJ, 1 for Kobe. Also a DPOY for MJ, something Kobe has never gotten. 10 All-NBA 1st teams for MJ, 8 for Kobe, as well as 9 All-Defensive 1st teams, 8 for Kobe. He also has garnered more MVP award shares in NBA history, even more than Kareem, despite Kareem having won 1 more award (in other words, MJ got more MVP votes than anyone ever, as 3 times he came in 2nd, and twice he came in 3 for the MVP award). Kobe is 10th on that list. MJ was a 10 time scoring champ, Kobe only 2 time. MJ led the NBA in PER 7 times, and statistically is the most efficient player in NBA history. Kobe never led that stat once, and is 18th all time on that list.

So we can see, on paper, there is absolutely nothing that makes Kobe on or above MJ’s plateau of greatness. And to people saying “Kobe is more clutch because now he has hit more game winners!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!1”, kindly silence yourselves. Kobe hit a lot of those shots because he takes a lot of them. MJ didn’t allow his team to be in those situations NEARLY as often. Not to mention, Kobe for his career shoots a whopping 33% on GW shot situations. MJ for his career shot 52% on GW shot situations. While Kobe is clutch, his clutchness gets overrated a LOT as well. Even this year, his FG% in clutch situations was only 44%, even behind Lebron. This goes in line with my next point…

My biggest knock on Kobe is that he has probably the poorest shot selection of all the true all-time great players. He consistently insists on taking long, contested jumpshots, often being off-balance or off a turnaround. So when he ends up hitting some of these, despite missing FAR more often than he makes them, Kobe fans go nuts thinking he is the greatest, most talented player ever, forgetting the fact that he shoots about 10 of them every game, so he’s bound to his 1 or 2. People say “Jordan didn’t hit as many of those as Kobe!!!” No duh… because he wasn’t stupid enough to shoot 10 of those dumb shots a game. He was too busy getting high percentage shots by driving to the hoop, creating for others, or using his post up game to get closer range shots. And this isn’t just applying to the comparison between Kobe and MJ. Kobe’s shot selection compared to other great guards/forwards like Bird, Magic, West, Oscar, is pretty questionable. Even in today’s NBA, his shot selection is pretty bad when compared to other players like Lebron, Wade, Dirk, Nash, and others. Shot selection always has been, and always will be Kobe’s #1 downfall.

The guy is absolutely loaded with talent, and as I already said, a top 5. But anointing him on a plateau with a guy like MJ is still pretty premature. And some people will take this as me hating on Kobe, which is completely untrue, as I really admire and like him as a player, and want him to succeed. But fans who constantly are trying to anoint him as the GOAT and put him on par with MJ’s greatness are what I hate on.

On a final note – I still wonder, what is it that makes people say he’s more talented than MJ? What does he actually do better than MJ? I can list TWO things… he has more range on his jumpshot, and he is a marginally better ball handler when being trapped in the open court, although I think it’s equally arguable that MJ is better at dribbling through traffic on his drives and splitting double teams. But there is absolutely NOTHING else that Kobe flat out does better than MJ. Rebounding, defense, passing, creating for others, creating for himself, footwork, post moves, finishing tough shots, finishing with contact, consistency in the mid-range shot, mental toughness, IQ in shot selection, leadership… Come on now.

[Giuseppe]

He's ahead of MJ's pace now.

MJ rang 6 at 35.

Kobe rang 5 at 32.

There ain't no team aside from the Celtics who can compete with us going forward. No one.

Bynum will heal, we will get Farmar's kickback as well as Morrison's 6 million and we'll hunt talent.

The sky is the limit now for Bryant. And you know what else? That fucker knows it.

[stretch]

MJ rang 6 at 35.

Kobe rang 5 at 32.

Or you could argue that Kobe took 14 full seasons to get 5, while Jordan took 11 full seasons to get 6 (make it 11 1/2 if you want to include the year he broke his leg and the year he came back with like 15 games left, which in total he only played 35 games with those two combined)

[Dr. Gonzo]

Anyone who watched Jordan in his prime knows that it's not even close.

[Goran Dragic]

Or you could argue that Kobe took 14 full seasons to get 5, while Jordan took 11 full seasons to get 6 (make it 11 1/2 if you want to include the year he broke his leg and the year he came back with like 15 games left, which in total he only played 35 games with those two combined)


Also, it's scary to think of how many rings MJ woulda had if the team that drafted him signed one of the top 3 centers of all time that off season.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Could Kobe sell underwear while rocking a Hitler 'stache? No fucking way. Case closed.

[Giuseppe]

Or you could argue that Kobe took 14 full seasons to get 5, while Jordan took 11 full seasons to get 6 (make it 11 1/2 if you want to include the year he broke his leg and the year he came back with like 15 games left, which in total he only played 35 games with those two combined)

Christ, Stretchy, Kobe can't follow MJ's path by the numbers. It's life, not a computer game.

At this point Kobe is ahead of MJ's pace with his prime just a portion behind him. The team is absolutely loaded though. Kobe has learned a lot of lessons the last 36 months and its paying off big dividends and will continue to do so.

He can very well easily eclipse MJ by the time it's over. Last night was the watershed moment. It's up to Kobe now. Nothing stands in his way.

[TheMACHINE]

funny cuz 90% off the time "Kobe vs Jordan" gets brought up is from haters.

Here's a thought...stop making threads about it, and maybe it'll be less.

[Killakobe81]

Kobe is not > = MJ ...

But dudes that act like Mj was without his imperfections, didnt have HOF help or never had a bad finals game is full of as much shit as the Kobe fanbbois ....

Kobe hater = Kobe fanboi ... both are bottom feeder trolls

Kobe is great I agree top 5 but a couple notches below MJ and Magic IMHO

[stretch]

Christ, Stretchy, Kobe can't follow MJ's path by the numbers. It's life, not a computer game.

At this point Kobe is ahead of MJ's pace with his prime just a portion behind him. The team is absolutely loaded though. Kobe has learned a lot of lessons the last 36 months and its paying off big dividends and will continue to do so.

He can very well easily eclipse MJ by the time it's over. Last night was the watershed moment. It's up to Kobe now. Nothing stands in his way.

I also gave reasons to consider aside from just factual numbers, if you read the original post in its entirety.

MJ didn't even play his entire prime, and still brought 6 rings as the unquestioned leader. Kobe has won 2 rings as the unquestioned leader, 3 as the second option in the eyes of most.

[stretch]

Kobe is not > = MJ ...

But doe sthat act like Mj was without his imperfections, didnt have HOF help or never had a bad finals game is full of as much shit as th Kobe fanbbois ....

Kobe hater = Kobe fanboi ...

Kobe is great I agree top 5 but a couple notches below MJ and Magic IMHO

I agree 100% with this post. MJ wasn't flawless by any means, and I likewise cant stand it when people knobslob MJ like he was Jesus or something, just as much as I can't stand it when people say Kobe is = or > than Jordan.

Although I will say this... MJ never won a clinching playoff game by getting outchoked by an opposing star, like Kobe did last night... lol. The performances by him and Ray Allen were absolutely pathetic, and I was not expecting either one to play that poorly.

[JamStone]

Lol tired of the Kobe/MJ comparison so you start another thread on one.

Makes cents very much.

[Killakobe81]

I agree 100% with this post. MJ wasn't flawless by any means, and I likewise cant stand it when people knobslob MJ like he was Jesus or something, just as much as I can't stand it when people say Kobe is = or > than Jordan.

Although I will say this... MJ never won a clinching playoff game by getting outchoked by an opposing star, like Kobe did last night... lol. The performances by him and Ray Allen were absolutely pathetic, and I was not expecting either one to play that poorly.

I agree with your post as well ...

that is another thing MJ has over Kobe ...better stamina it appears Kobe admitted he ran out of gas ...Mj may have shot poorly and been tired but doubt he would ever admit to running out of gas ...

[stretch]

Lol tired of the Kobe/MJ comparison so you start another thread on one.

Makes cents very much.

How about tired of the unfactual and unfounded arguments of Kobe = or > MJ?

[mystargtr34]

Kobe Top 5 All-Time without question? Are you trying to be nice before saying MJ >>> Kobe... or do you really believe that.

Kobe is up there... top 10... but top 5 is pushing it IMO.

Do you think hes been better than Duncan, or Shaq?

[JamStone]

Lol I'm a Kobe apologist, and even I don't think he's top 5.

I think it's arguable that he's still not top 10.

Yes. Seriously.

[stretch]

I agree with your post as well ...

that is another thing MJ has over Kobe ...better stamina it appears Kobe admitted he ran out of gas ...Mj may have shot poorly and been tired but doubt he would ever admit to running out of gas ...

Kobe is an absolute beast, and gets hated on unfairly a LOT. We saw that recently in the thread about people thinking KG > Kobe, etc... And I tend to defend Kobe a lot in those situations. I also defend him when people say that he absolutely doesnt even compare to MJ in any way, shape or form, that MJ would drop 80 on him and hold Kobe to -22 points, etc... because some people knobslob MJ wayyyyyy too much, and say completely untrue stuff. But likewise, I don't like the excessive props he gets at times by retarded fans as well, especially when sayings he is borderline or superior to MJ greatness, because thats completely untrue as well. He deserves his props... IMO he is a top 10, probably top 5 player ever. But people gotta quit arguing his greatness based off emotion.

[stretch]

Kobe Top 5 All-Time without question? Are you trying to be nice before saying MJ >>> Kobe... or do you really believe that.

Kobe is up there... top 10... but top 5 is pushing it IMO.

Do you think hes been better than Duncan, or Shaq?

I think it's definitely arguable that he is top 5. Depends on what POV you take on it. In terms of individual ability, hes definitely top 5. But if I'm building a team? He's definitely not top 5 then, possibly not top 10. I would choose MJ, Shaq, Duncan, Kareem, and Magic as my first option to build around, without question before choosing Kobe. And there are plenty of others that are probably better to build around too. Again, I think the #1 reason for that, is Kobe's questionable shot selection, which also feeds into his sometimes still questionable leadership skills.

[Warlord23]

Kobe's performance yesterday (6-24 FG) in a clinching game is just about the worst performance by a Finals MVP in NBA history. Seriously, the dude couldn't hit the broad side of the barn and the Lakers in total shot below 33%. Joey Crawford is the real MVP.

Kobe Bryant : David Stern :: Triple H : Vince McMahon.

[JamStone]

Kobe's performance yesterday (6-24 FG) in a clinching game is just about the worst performance by a Finals MVP in NBA history. Seriously, the dude couldn't hit the broad side of the barn and the Lakers in total shot below 33%. Joey Crawford is the real MVP.

Kobe Bryant : David Stern :: Triple H : Vince McMahon.

The Finals MVP isn't based on only the last game of the Finals.

And again, it's been posted several times on these boards before, go peep game 6 of the 1996 Finals.

[lebomb]

Wow !!! :wow ............... I agree with Stretch. :depressed

[Warlord23]

The Finals MVP isn't based on only the last game of the Finals.

And again, it's been posted several times on these boards before, go peep game 6 of the 1996 Finals.

My statement is not just based on the box scores. Take a look again at what went on in that 4th quarter. It was Sacramento-LA all over again with the way whistles were blown.

[stretch]

Kobe's performance yesterday (6-24 FG) in a clinching game is just about the worst performance by a Finals MVP in NBA history. Seriously, the dude couldn't hit the broad side of the barn and the Lakers in total shot below 33%. Joey Crawford is the real MVP.

Kobe Bryant : David Stern :: Triple H : Vince McMahon.

Let's be fair now, MJ also had a pretty bad performance in a clinching game of the Finals, although I don't think he would ever allow himself to play THAT badly in a game 7 in the biggest game of his life. But in the 96 Finals, MJ shot 5-19 in the series clinching game 6, and won Finals MVP that year. And it was fairly similar to last nights game, in that it was a game completely dominated by defense and rebounding.

[stretch]

And again, it's been posted several times on these boards before, go peep game 6 of the 1996 Finals.

lol, beat me to it

[Giuseppe]

Joey Crawford is the real MVP.

& him running off the court at the end was hilarious. :lmao

[Killakobe81]

Kobe is an absolute beast, and gets hated on unfairly a LOT. We saw that recently in the thread about people thinking KG > Kobe, etc... And I tend to defend Kobe a lot in those situations. I also defend him when people say that he absolutely doesnt even compare to MJ in any way, shape or form, that MJ would drop 80 on him and hold Kobe to -22 points, etc... because some people knobslob MJ wayyyyyy too much, and say completely untrue stuff. But likewise, I don't like the excessive props he gets at times by retarded fans as well, especially when sayings he is borderline or superior to MJ greatness, because thats completely untrue as well. He deserves his props... IMO he is a top 10, probably top 5 player ever. But people gotta quit arguing his greatness based off emotion.

stretch brining the goods.

One qualifier to my top 5 statement ...

I have said many times i dont factor ball BEFORE 1980 ...

I understand MANy here are comfortable using stats, NBA classic games or whatever to make their judgements.

I go by players I saw. Do i think wilt is top 5? Probably but I NEVER saw him play so how could i say for sure?

As for duncan and shaq HELL yeah he is better than shaq cuz i will Take Kobe's great over 12 years OVER shaq's dominance of of 7 and peak of 3 which even in his peak he really only played well in the playoffs ...

Finals Shaq>Finals kobe no doubt about it ...overall Kobe>Shaq

duncan is tougher to call I think it's close and this title gives Kobe the edge IMHO but the thread i started last night was to be a dick. I think you could make cases either way.

Out of the guys I have seen:
1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Kobe
5. Duncan
6. Shaq
7. Hakeem
8. Bird
9. Isiah
10. KG

My 10th spot is up for debate I considered Pippen, Barkley, Malone stockton , GP Kidd etc.

But I left off those guys for being ringless or in Pippens case never ringing a the top guy ...

OBTW i know advanced stats fans will argue that of course you can make debates that way ...but I disagree.

I think i heard last night Russel grabbed 30 rebounds in a finals game how do i judge that?

Never saw it ...not sure if he was rebounding against a bunch of midgets ...

I respectll and ALL his rings but the stts useless to me ...if i did not see the performance.

If i was a College football scout and someone told me a kid in Dumbfyuck Wash ran for 30 TD's in a season ...what would I do go watch him in person or request the tape ...

I trust my "eyes"

[HarlemHeat37]

I didn't read the entire OP, because MJ vs. Kobe isn't an argument, Kobe's legacy is severely lacking in comparison to Mike's..

I'm curious as to the argument of Kobe being top 5 though..can anybody present a good argument that would help sway me?..

[SomeCallMeTim]

Or you could argue that Kobe took 14 full seasons to get 5, while Jordan took 11 full seasons to get 6 (make it 11 1/2 if you want to include the year he broke his leg and the year he came back with like 15 games left, which in total he only played 35 games with those two combined)

Why would you not include those years? Of course they count. Not to mention the Wiz years. You think Jordan Jockers would exclude titles from those seasons had he won them?

It is just silly the way people cherry-pick seasons and stats to justify their arguments.

That said: MJ >> Kobe. It's hard to frame an argument otherwise. Which just makes it all the more mystifying that Jordan Jockers would ever try to do so...

[Killakobe81]

I didn't read the entire OP, because MJ vs. Kobe isn't an argument, Kobe's legacy is severely lacking in comparison to Mike's..

I'm curious as to the argument of Kobe being top 5 though..can anybody present a good argument that would help sway me?..

I doubt it cuz my top 5 starts in 1980 ...

If anyone has access to some real good game tapes of Russell or Wilt like the WHOLE finals they played ...I would love to see those maybe Id change my mind on only judging post 1980 players ...

I almost bought the Celtics DYNASTY DVD just so I could see more than the occasional NBA classic game cut and spliced to judge those guys ...

I would also love 70's era Kareem ...

[stretch]

Why would you not include those years? Of course they count. Not to mention the Wiz years. You think Jordan Jockers would exclude titles from those seasons had he won them?

It is just silly the way people cherry-pick seasons and stats to justify their arguments.

That said: MJ >> Kobe. It's hard to frame an argument otherwise. Which just makes it all the more mystifying that Jordan Jockers would ever try to do so...

What the argument was, is that Kobe seemingly has won more titles in a smaller timespan than Jordan, so I brought out stats to counter it. You didn't consider the context whatsoever.