Consequences of AZ law...

[George Gervin's Afro]

Deported man may be Houston-born citizen

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7077166.html

Border Patrol doubted his papers because he speaks very little English
By SUSAN CARROLL
HOUSTON CHRONICLE
June 23, 2010, 9:33PM



Immigration officials are reviewing whether a 19-year-old man deported last week from South Texas is actually a U.S. citizen born in Houston.

Luis Alberto Delgado said he and his older brother were stopped last Thursday by a Jim Wells County Sheriff captain, who called the U.S. Border Patrol.

Despite carrying a birth certificate showing he was born at Houston's Ben Taub Hospital, a state of Texas ID card and a Social Security card, Delgado said he was taken into Border Patrol custody, questioned for eight hours and pressured into signing paperwork that cleared the way for his removal to Mexico.

Delgado, who returned to Houston three years ago after spending much of his childhood in Mexico, said immigration officials were suspicious because he spoke very little English. He said they kept saying, "No, these papers aren't yours."

"What they did to me was discrimination," Delgado said in a telephone interview from Reynosa. "I don't understand why they did this."

"I am an American citizen," he said.

A U.S. Border Patrol spokesman said that officials do not comment on individual cases. A spokesman for the Texas Department of State Health Services, Chris Van Deusen, confirmed that the state has a birth certificate on file matching the information on one provided to authorities by Delgado. The Houston Chronicle reviewed a certified copy of the birth certificate.

U.S. immigration officials have faced scrutiny in recent years over allegations that they have deported U.S. citizens, including a high-profile case of a mentally disabled Los Angeles man who was lost for months in Mexico in 2007. Rep. Zoe Lofgren, D-Calif., said some cases in the past have been "appalling," but she was encouraged that Immigration and Customs Enforcement Assistant Secretary John Morton has taken steps to help revise guidelines to prevent such situations.

Isaias Torres, a Houston immigration attorney who took Delgado's case pro bono, said he contacted immigration officials Monday and said they initially were responsive to concerns that Delgado is a citizen but have not taken steps to return him to the U.S.

"I hope they will move on this quickly," he said. "We want him back here."

Stopped by a sheriff
Delgado and his brother, Eduardo Luis Pompa, dropped their niece off in Falfurrias last Thursday afternoon and were about 5 miles outside of Alice when they were stopped by a county sheriff.

Capt. Joe R. Martinez said he pulled Pompa over because the passenger, Delgado, was not wearing a seat belt. Martinez said he asked Pompa for a driver's license, but he did not have one. He also did not speak English, Martinez said.

Martinez said he asked the Border Patrol for help to identify the brothers.

Martinez said he booked Pompa into the county jail for driving without a license, and the Border Patrol took Delgado into immigration custody. Martinez said Pompa was released from jail after posting bail after jailers were told by federal officials that he is a U.S. citizen.

In the meantime, Delgado was at a South Texas Border Patrol station being questioned by immigration agents about his papers.

He said he was detained from 4 p.m. to midnight and pressured to sign paperwork that resulted in his being sent to Matamoros.

"The official that was holding me told me I had to sign them … or I would have to stay there," Delgado said.

"I thought if I signed them, they'd let me go free, and I could return to Houston," he said.

Stranded in Reynosa
Delgado said he never was expressly told by the agent that he would be released from custody in the U.S. if he signed the papers, but he believed that to be true.

Torres said Delgado's case may have been complicated for the Border Patrol because Delgado's family used a fake Mexican birth certificate to enroll him in school in Mexico.

He said school officials in Mexico historically give parents of U.S. children a hard time enrolling them in school without a Mexican birth certificate and look the other way if it's fraudulent.

Still, Torres questioned why Delgado was allowed to pass through the port of entry in Laredo three years ago without incident and why immigration officials didn't take more time to verify all of his documents. He said Delgado simply didn't know any better than to sign the immigration paperwork last week, Torres said.

"He's just a teenager," Torres said.

When Delgado tried to come back to the U.S. through the port of entry, he said he was told he could face up to 20 years in prison for entering the country after being deported.

Now, Delgado said, he is stranded in Reynosa, trying to understand how he ended up barred from the U.S.


legal citizens would never be bothered under AZ law....:rolleyes

He did have all of his papers..but his english was bad so he was deported..

[Wild Cobra]

Deported man may be Houston-born citizen



legal citizens would never be bothered under AZ law....:rolleyes

He did have all of his papers..but his english was bad so he was deported..
It's called abuse of power. What the laws are don't matter when you deal with racist or corrupt officials.

This is not the result of the AZ law. You're just a lair with your title.

Ever see Born in East LA? (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092690/)

[George Gervin's Afro]

It's called abuse of power. What the laws are don't matter when you deal with racist or corrupt officials.

This is not the result of the AZ law. You're just a lair with your title.

Ever see Born in East LA? (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092690/)

So you know for a fact that not one police officer will abuse his power in AZ? What about the corrupt officials in AZ?

This is exactly what is going to happen AZ and you know that..

[Wild Cobra]

So you know for a fact that not one police officer will abuse his power in AZ? What about the corrupt officials in AZ?

This is exactly what is going to happen AZ and you know that..
Are you saying Texas already has the law Arizona just passed?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Are you saying Texas already has the law Arizona is passing?

I'd ignore the question also if I were you. Are you telling everyone on this board that are no corrupt officials in AZ that would abuse their power when enforcing the law?

Yes or No.

[TeyshaBlue]

So you know for a fact that not one police officer will abuse his power in AZ? What about the corrupt officials in AZ?

This is exactly what is going to happen AZ and you know that..

That's the poster boy of logical fallacies, GGA. To purport that the AZ law is the cause is disenginuous as all hell. To make that viewpoint work, you'll need to prove this wasn't happening before the law. Newsflash. It was.

[Wild Cobra]

I'd ignore the question also if I were you. Are you telling everyone on this board that are no corrupt officials in AZ that would abuse their power when enforcing the law?

Yes or No.
Of course not. I'm sure there are corrupt law enforcement. My point is, you offer an example in Texas, which DOES NOT have the AZ law deporting a citizen. The abuse can occur without the new law, and you are trying to blame the new law...

Seems a bit lame to me.

[ducks]

I'd ignore the question also if I were you. Are you telling everyone on this board that are no corrupt officials in AZ that would abuse their power when enforcing the law?

Yes or No.

their are corrupt cops in every state
they abuse their powers all the time
so since a cop might abuse the power people should not pass any laws?

[Blake]

Stopped by a sheriff
Delgado and his brother, Eduardo Luis Pompa, dropped their niece off in Falfurrias last Thursday afternoon and were about 5 miles outside of Alice when they were stopped by a county sheriff.

Capt. Joe R. Martinez said he pulled Pompa over because the passenger, Delgado, was not wearing a seat belt. Martinez said he asked Pompa for a driver's license, but he did not have one. He also did not speak English, Martinez said.

Martinez said he asked the Border Patrol for help to identify the brothers.

Martinez said he booked Pompa into the county jail for driving without a license, and the Border Patrol took Delgado into immigration custody. Martinez said Pompa was released from jail after posting bail after jailers were told by federal officials that he is a U.S. citizen.

In the meantime, Delgado was at a South Texas Border Patrol station being questioned by immigration agents about his papers.


so let me get this straight.....

Pompa had no license, no papers, didn't speak English and was released.....

Delgado had his license, papers, spoke some English and was sent to Reynosa......

how did "federal officials" determine that Pompa was a citizen, but couldn't determine that Delgado was?

wtf?

[Wild Cobra]

so since a cop might abuse the power people should not pass any laws?
I was thinking something similar.

George...

What laws can we pass that police officers cannot abuse?

[CosmicCowboy]

Uh guys...this was THE BORDER PATROL (FEDS) that deported the guy.

[Blake]

I was thinking something similar.

George...

What laws can we pass that police officers cannot abuse?

none that I can think of, but I'm a little more comfortable that a cop won't abuse jaywalking laws and wrongfully deport someone.

[Wild Cobra]

Uh guys...this was THE BORDER PATROL (FEDS) that deported the guy.
Yep...

The legal guy must not have had the ounce to give them to let him pass.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I was thinking something similar.

George...

What laws can we pass that police officers cannot abuse?

None can be passed. Which is why many people have the problem with the AZ law... Now let's get back to 'reasonable suspicion' clause of the AZ law... How many officers who don't like illegals will abuse their power?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Of course not. I'm sure there are corrupt law enforcement. My point is, you offer an example in Texas, which DOES NOT have the AZ law deporting a citizen. The abuse can occur without the new law, and you are trying to blame the new law...

Seems a bit lame to me.

This is exactly what many of the opponents of the AZ fear happening...

[George Gervin's Afro]

That's the poster boy of logical fallacies, GGA. To purport that the AZ law is the cause is disenginuous as all hell. To make that viewpoint work, you'll need to prove this wasn't happening before the law. Newsflash. It was.

I wasn't implying the AZ law caused this..rather it is a concern of what could happen. I was pointing out that this stuff happens without a law..now we have a state that gives police officers the right to abuse thier power.. For clarification purposes I'm not stating that all cops will abuse their power rather it just takes a few to do it..so what will be the recourse for those people who are kicked out of the country in error..will the US pay for the person to come back?

[ElNono]

You don't get it George...

Mistakes will be made. It's the end that justify the means.
Just as long it's not you that's getting deported, you should just be quiet and roll along with it...

/sarcasm

[ElNono]

What's not going to be cheap is when this guy comes back and sues the government... then we can analyze how much these mistakes are really costing us...

[George Gervin's Afro]

What's not going to be cheap is when this guy comes back and sues the government... then we can analyze how much these mistakes are really costing us...

Or when someone can prove that the reason they were stopped in AZ was invalid they can then sue the state..

[Blake]

will the US pay for the person to come back?

from Reynosa? he might be able to walk back over the border.

but I've wondered how they would deport someone that looks/speaks with a middle eastern dialect

[TeyshaBlue]

I wasn't implying the AZ law caused this..rather it is a concern of what could happen. I was pointing out that this stuff happens without a law..now we have a state that gives police officers the right to abuse thier power.. For clarification purposes I'm not stating that all cops will abuse their power rather it just takes a few to do it..so what will be the recourse for those people who are kicked out of the country in error..will the US pay for the person to come back?

Ummm..no. You were implying the AZ law caused this. Your OP "Consequences of AZ law... " clearly posits a cause and effect here.

BTW, there is no "right" to abuse power. It's either abuse or it's not. Rights do not enter the equation here.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Ummm..no. You were implying the AZ law caused this. Your OP "Consequences of AZ law... " clearly posits a cause and effect here.

BTW, there is no "right" to abuse power. It's either abuse or it's not. Rights do not enter the equation here.

Ok you have no idea of what I was implying.. My intention was to bring to light what will happen in AZ.. You are free to make things up about my intentions...

[TeyshaBlue]

What's not going to be cheap is when this guy comes back and sues the government... then we can analyze how much these mistakes are really costing us...

Nothing appears to be cheap in modern jurisprudence. Cost effectiveness is almost a non sequitur.
If a lawsuit is successful then, good. That's a correction mechanism in action. Most laws aren't pristine in their conception.

[TeyshaBlue]

Ok you have no idea of what I was implying.. My intention was to bring to light what will happen in AZ.. You are free to make things up about my intentions...

The OP " Possible consequences of AZ law" might've been clearer. I'm not making anything up...I'm literally reading your OP.

[George Gervin's Afro]

The OP " Possible consequences of AZ law" might've been clearer. I'm not making anything up...I'm literally reading your OP.

It was intended to be a deeper implication..I know TX has not passed an immigration law...this scenario is going to played out in AZ now..hence a consequence of the AZ law..

[ElNono]

Nothing appears to be cheap in modern jurisprudence. Cost effectiveness is almost a non sequitur.
If a lawsuit is successful then, good. That's a correction mechanism in action. Most laws aren't pristine in their conception.

You can make legislation that doesn't invite mistakes and lawsuits, and yet works effectively towards the same goal. Sure, no law is perfect, but there's different levels of dumb in each one.

[TeyshaBlue]

It was intended to be a deeper implication..I know TX has not passed an immigration law...this scenario is going to played out in AZ now..hence a consequence of the AZ law..

Ok. As it played out prior to the AZ law.

"Consequences of Sun Spots" works here too.

BTW, I don't think this stands a chance in hell of passing in Texas. What chances do you give something similar passing here?

[TeyshaBlue]

You can make legislation that doesn't invite mistakes and lawsuits, and yet works effectively towards the same goal. Sure, no law is perfect, but there's different levels of dumb in each one.

True. I'm not sure I possess the brain pan to grok what "invites" lawsuits and what doesn't.

[ChumpDumper]

Uh guys...this was THE BORDER PATROL (FEDS) that deported the guy.Shouldn't even have gotten to the feds. Would you mind being detained and questioned for eight hours and deported?

[ElNono]

True. I'm not sure I possess the brain pan to grok what "invites" lawsuits and what doesn't.

When you open the door to law enforcement to potentially violate your individual rights, you're inviting lawsuits. When you blur the line between what your rights are and what an officer rights are, you're inviting lawsuits.
You want legislation that makes things clear in the context of the constitution, not that make things murkier.

[LnGrrrR]

It's called abuse of power. What the laws are don't matter when you deal with racist or corrupt officials.

This is not the result of the AZ law. You're just a lair with your title.

Ever see Born in East LA? (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092690/)

Are you saying that supporters of the law didn't create the implication that only illegals would be bothered?

Obviously legal citizens are going to be snagged by this law. Every law is abused or worked around in some manner/fashion.

Which is the same reason why you shouldn't even give the ghost of legality to certain heinous things like advanced interrogation, in my eyes.

[LnGrrrR]

That's the poster boy of logical fallacies, GGA. To purport that the AZ law is the cause is disenginuous as all hell. To make that viewpoint work, you'll need to prove this wasn't happening before the law. Newsflash. It was.

Yes, but now the officer can point to the law and say, "I was just doing my best to comply with the law!" instead of being pointed out as someone who abused his power.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Ok. As it played out prior to the AZ law.

"Consequences of Sun Spots" works here too.

BTW, I don't think this stands a chance in hell of passing in Texas. What chances do you give something similar passing here?

I absolutley think a similar law could be passed in TX..

[TeyshaBlue]

When you open the door to law enforcement to potentially violate your individual rights, you're inviting lawsuits. When you blur the line between what your rights are and what an officer rights are, you're inviting lawsuits.
You want legislation that makes things clear in the context of the constitution, not that make things murkier.

I would agree in a perfect world. However, almost any law carries the potential to violate individual rights. Are some rights more sacred than others? What's the criteria for critical mass in the violation of rights? Why have'nt we gone back and undone the fucked up mess that is the Patriot Act?

[TeyshaBlue]

I absolutley think a similar law could be passed in TX..

Really? Admittedly anecdotally, I don't see a chance in hell of this passing here. I guess I aint runnin' with the "right" crowd.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Really? Admittedly anecdotally, I don't see a chance in hell of this passing here. I guess I aint runnin' with the "right" crowd.

I know that perry has come out and stated that TX wouldn't be going the way of AZ but this is a red meat issue for his hardcore base.. After reconsidering I don't think a similar law could be passed..

[LnGrrrR]

I would agree in a perfect world. However, almost any law carries the potential to violate individual rights. Are some rights more sacred than others? What's the criteria for critical mass in the violation of rights?

I would say that some laws lead to a greater potential for abuse. Advanced interrogation, for one. Warrantless wiretaps, for another. No-knock raids, another. REAL ID, another. (I know, I sound like a hardcore libertarian. :D)



Why have'nt we gone back and undone the fucked up mess that is the Patriot Act?

Because politicians are cowards, and afraid of being called "weak" in the War on Terror. Sadly.

[TeyshaBlue]

I know that perry has come out and stated that TX wouldn't be going the way of AZ but this is a red meat issue for his hardcore base.. After reconsidering I don't think a similar law could be passed..

Yeah, I think with White's ascent in the polls, Perry's days, and his base, might be numbered. We can always hope.

[TeyshaBlue]

I would say that some laws lead to a greater potential for abuse. Advanced interrogation, for one. Warrantless wiretaps, for another. No-knock raids, another. REAL ID, another. (I know, I sound like a hardcore libertarian. :D)

Thank you, Mr. Paul.:lol

[ElNono]

I would agree in a perfect world. However, almost any law carries the potential to violate individual rights. Are some rights more sacred than others? What's the criteria for critical mass in the violation of rights? Why have'nt we gone back and undone the fucked up mess that is the Patriot Act?

Well, the Patriot Act specifically has been stricken down by courts at least partially. But honestly, I condemned the Patriot Act back then and still do today. And I still think it invited lawsuits, as much as this thing does.

And not any law carries the potential to violate individual rights. For example, a budgetary law granting more funds to increase monitoring in the border would not necessarily violate any individual rights, and would certainly attack this problem from a different angle.

[ElNono]

because politicians are cowards, and afraid of being called "weak" in the war on terror. Sadly.

+1

[TeyshaBlue]

Well, the Patriot Act specifically has been stricken down by courts at least partially. But honestly, I condemned the Patriot Act back then and still do today. And I still think it invited lawsuits, as much as this thing does.

And not any law carries the potential to violate individual rights. For example, a budgetary law granting more funds to increase monitoring in the border would not necessarily violate any individual rights, and would certainly attack this problem from a different angle.

Those who advocate for the persons being monitored crossing the border will disagree.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Yeah, I think with White's ascent in the polls, Perry's days, and his base, might be numbered. We can always hope.

I am a big fan of Bill White.. will volunteer to work for his campign if I have the chance.

[TeyshaBlue]

I am a big fan of Bill White.. will volunteer to work for his campign if I have the chance.

You and me, both.

I still pine for Ann Richards, tho.:lol

[George Gervin's Afro]

You and me, both.

I still pine for Ann Richards, tho.:lol

I have afriend who works for Bill White now and got her start with Ann Richards right out of college..we went to grade school together and attended private highschools in SA..we did make out in highschool..

[ElNono]

Those who advocate for the persons being monitored crossing the border will disagree.

Catching somebody crossing the border illegally, or somebody aiding people to cross the border illegally is already codified as a felony in the US Code.
So, you know, this is not a matter of opinion, but merely enforcement.

The biggest problem with the AZ law is that while it's supposed to target illegal immigrants, it effectively doesn't. Under the assigned criteria, legal immigrants and even citizens can be targeted. I personally also believe it violates the 4th amendment of the constitution. I'm sure a challenge will appear, if it's not already in the works, and we'll see.

[CosmicCowboy]

Shouldn't even have gotten to the feds. Would you mind being detained and questioned for eight hours and deported?

Why do we even have a border patrol then? Why do we have immigration laws?

What is the border patrol supposed to do if you think they shouldn't talk to suspected illegal immigrants?

[LnGrrrR]

Thank you, Mr. Paul.:lol

Ha! I forgot to add the draconian penalties related to the Drug War! If I had my vote back, I think I'd give it to Ron Paul instead of Obama. Obama talked a big game on civil liberty, but he's as bad if not worse than Bush. Very saddening.

[TeyshaBlue]

I have afriend who works for Bill White now and got her start with Ann Richards right out of college..we went to grade school together and attended private highschools in SA..we did make out in highschool..

*crossing GGA is gay off my list*:lol:lol

[Blake]

Why do we even have a border patrol then? Why do we have immigration laws?

What is the border patrol supposed to do if you think they shouldn't talk to suspected illegal immigrants?

Based on the information that has been provided here, Delgado should have never been suspected as an illegal immigrant in the first place.

No need to call the Border Patrol in this situation.

[CosmicCowboy]

If it walks and talks like a duck it's usually a duck. Just because his mother spit him out of the womb in a county hospital in Houston Texas (probably for free) he grew up in Mexico and didn't speak English. The driver of the car didn't speak English and didn't have a drivers license. You don't call that reasonable probability?

[Oh, Gee!!]

If it walks and talks like a duck it's usually a duck. Just because his mother spit him out of the womb in a county hospital in Houston Texas (probably for free) he grew up in Mexico and didn't speak English.

which makes him a US citizen, like it or not



The driver of the car didn't speak English and didn't have a drivers license.

and he wasn't deported like his brother who had ample documentation regarding his status as a US citizen


You don't call that reasonable probability?

I call it an officer and customs agent being completely wrong.

[CosmicCowboy]

which makes him a US citizen, like it or not




and he wasn't deported like his brother who had ample documentation regarding his status as a US citizen



I call it an officer and customs agent being completely wrong.

I didn't say the border patrol didn't fuck up. I said the Sheriff had probable cause to call the border patrol since it was their jurisdiction.

[Oh, Gee!!]

I didn't say the border patrol didn't fuck up. I said the Sheriff had probable cause to call the border patrol since it was their jurisdiction.

the deported person proved his citizenship upon request to the sheriff, so I don't think he had probable cause to do anything other than to arrest the driver for no driver's license and send the passenger on his way.

[ElNono]

I didn't say the border patrol didn't fuck up. I said the Sheriff had probable cause to call the border patrol since it was their jurisdiction.

The sheriff had probable cause to call up the Texas DMV and verify that the driver license presented was legitimate. Don't forget this guy had to present valid papers in order to get it. Once verified, he should have let him go.

[George Gervin's Afro]

The sheriff had probable cause to call up the Texas DMV and verify that the driver license presented was legitimate. Don't forget this guy had to present valid papers in order to get it. Once verified, he should have let him go.

The will never happen in AZ so there is nothing to worry about. Violating a US citizen's civil rights is no big deal to the resident dead enders..

[Blake]

If it walks and talks like a duck it's usually a duck. Just because his mother spit him out of the womb in a county hospital in Houston Texas (probably for free) he grew up in Mexico and didn't speak English. The driver of the car didn't speak English and didn't have a drivers license. You don't call that reasonable probability?

For the driver yes. Delgado, no.

Which is what's strange about this.

[RandomGuy]

Hispanics leave AZ over immigrant law
(npr story can be seen here) (http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/06/14/pm-hispanics-leave-arizona-over-immigrant-law/)

The U.S. Conference of Mayors meets today in Oklahoma City, Okla. They spent part of their morning, though, talking about Arizona. The mayors went on the record against Arizona's new immigration law that's set to go into effect at the end of next month. The one that makes it makes a crime to be in that state without the right papers. The mayors also want Washington to get its act together on federal immigration reform, so that state laws aren't necessary anymore. Some illegal immigrants in Arizona aren't waiting around.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Jeff Tyler

All over Phoenix, you'll find yard sales, like this one -- Silvia Arias sells the possessions of four Hispanic families. They're undocumented, so they're moving some place else.

"Some are returning to Mexico," Arias said. "Some are moving to Albuquerque."

The new law -- requiring police to verify the legal status of immigrants -- has created a climate of fear.

"Everyone is migrating to other states to see if we can find a better life for our children," she said.

Leticia Munoz also wants a better life for her kids. She's been in the U.S. for 10 years. Now, she's planning to move her family back to Mexico.

"There really are no jobs there," Munoz said. "I don't want to go back. I have three children. But, these new laws really scare me."

She used to earn around $400 a month babysitting the children of other immigrants. But over the last year-and-a-half, Arizona has cracked down on businesses that employ undocumented workers. Many immigrants have lost their jobs, and they no longer need a babysitter. Leticia is down to making $90 dollars a month -- not enough to live on.

When she leaves, she'll pull her 8-year-old daughter out of school. It's a pattern that's creating chaos for the school district.

Impact on schools

"In the last five weeks, we're down about almost 100 students," said Jeffrey Smith, superintendent of the Balsz Elementary School District.

He says the state reimburses the district about $5,000 per child.

"The hundred students that we've lost translate into, I believe, a half-a-million dollars," he said.

The school year ended last Friday. During the summer break, more students are expected to leave town. If the district loses too much funding, it could be forced to cut teachers. Smith's also concerned about how the exodus will impact surrounding neighborhoods.

"It can blight a community," the superintendent said. "So you have apartments that are less and less full. Businesses close down. So we're very concerned about what effect this will have on the economy in this area."

But isn't the economic impact offset by the money taxpayers will save on social services? Probably not.

Judy Gans studies the economics of immigration at the University of Arizona. She says the state doesn't have a surplus of young, low-skilled workers. So, if Arizona kicks out all the illegal immigrants, and replaces them with Americans from other states, taxpayers will still have to subside the low-skilled workers.

"Any low-skilled worker generally is going to pay less in taxes than they consume in social services," Gans said.

Before the recession, Gans says immigrant labor helped fuel growth in construction, manufacturing and the hotel industry.

"One needs to be really careful about sort of thinking we can parse this and get rid of certain categories of workers without hurting the whole industry," she said.

Impact on businesses

The music is still upbeat at this strip mall in an immigrant neighborhood, but businesses here are suffering because so many Hispanics have left town. Francisco Noriega works at a jewelry store.

"People are afraid to go out now, you know what I mean? They don't want to spend money in case of an emergency," he said.

Noriega estimates his business has gone down about 70-80 percent.

Noriega is a U.S. citizen. The departure of his customers -- many of whom are undocumented -- could cost him his job.

"It's affecting every single one of us, really, a lot," he said.

And it's expected to get worse for local businesses next month. During a recent coffee talk at an elementary school, a group of 40 undocumented parents were asked, "How many of you will leave town if the law goes into effect at the end of July?" They all raised their hands.

I guess we will get to see what happens.

Personally, I think the law is silly. I also think they should keep it in place for a few years and see what the results really are. It offers a good opportunity to see the effects, good and bad.

[CosmicCowboy]

So...it's working? The ILLEGAL immigrants are leaving and going back to Mexico?

And thats a bad thing?

[CosmicCowboy]

Impact on schools

"In the last five weeks, we're down about almost 100 students," said Jeffrey Smith, superintendent of the Balsz Elementary School District.

He says the state reimburses the district about $5,000 per child.

"The hundred students that we've lost translate into, I believe, a half-a-million dollars," he said.

So, the State that was having to tax it's citizens to pay a half million dollars to educate these 100 ILLEGAL immigrant kids won't have to spend that money now?

BooHoo

[ElNono]

So, the State that was having to tax it's citizens to pay a half million dollars to educate these 100 ILLEGAL immigrant kids won't have to spend that money now?

You don't know that the kids were all illegal immigrants. Could be only their parents or related family were.

Furthermore, this will probably affect the education of ALL kids in that school, citizens or not citizens.

[George Gervin's Afro]

So, the State that was having to tax it's citizens to pay a half million dollars to educate these 100 ILLEGAL immigrant kids won't have to spend that money now?

BooHoo

There's nothing to worry about. Once all illegal immigrants pack up and leave all of AZ's problems will go away. Go ahead and go back to sleep now..

[ElNono]

I see migration to other states more likely. As stated, there's simply no jobs in Mexico. Not that it's that much different in America right now.

[CosmicCowboy]

You guys are hilarious. What part of ILLEGAL immigrant don't you get?

[Yonivore]

I see migration to other states more likely. As stated, there's simply no jobs in Mexico. Not that it's that much different in America right now.
I suggest California.

[ElNono]

You guys are hilarious. What part of ILLEGAL immigrant don't you get?

Quote where it says the kids leaving are illegal immigrants?

[CosmicCowboy]

I see migration to other states more likely. As stated, there's simply no jobs in Mexico. Not that it's that much different in America right now.

So you are saying that if ALL the states enforced our EXISTING immigration laws they wouldn't have anywhere to go?

[George Gervin's Afro]

You guys are hilarious. What part of ILLEGAL immigrant don't you get?

You guys are hilarious..what part of negative economic impact don't you get?

[ElNono]

So you are saying that if ALL the states enforced our EXISTING immigration laws they wouldn't have anywhere to go?

No, they'll probably stay. They would just find the states least likely to enforce the laws. These people didn't risk their lives to just turn around and go back.

[RandomGuy]

So, the State that was having to tax it's citizens to pay a half million dollars to educate these 100 ILLEGAL immigrant kids won't have to spend that money now?

BooHoo

Most of those kids are probably US citizens. Most of the children of illegal immigrants tend to be born in the US.

Arizona will now see the exodus of labor from the state. This will drive down demand for housing, further depressing the tax base for local governments.

As I said we will get to see what the net effects are.

You do know admit are some benefits to government in the form of taxes from illegals right?

[CosmicCowboy]

You guys are hilarious..what part of negative economic impact don't you get?

What part of "they consume more public services than they pay in taxes" don't YOU get?

[ElNono]

I guess we'll catch those we can catch, deport them, then they'll be right back since we've done nothing to improve our border security... awesome plan!

[ducks]

some of the kids might be us citizens but if their parents were not legal here and gave birth to them in the usa they should not be!

[George Gervin's Afro]

What part of "they consume more public services than they pay in taxes" don't YOU get?

People losing their businesses now is good for the AZ economy....I've seen the light..:rolleyes

[George Gervin's Afro]

some of the kids might be us citizens but if their parents were not legal here and gave birth to them in the usa they should not be!

so now they then become wards of the state..great job!

[George Gervin's Afro]

I guess we'll catch those we can catch, deport them, then they'll be right back since we've done nothing to improve our border security... awesome plan!

Don't forget to count the cost of continually deporting them... How will AZ pay for this?

[ducks]

so now they then become wards of the state..great job!

no their parents and them should get the hell out of the usa and never be welcomed back since they broke the law and got in illegally!

[ducks]

Don't forget to count the cost of continually deporting them... How will AZ pay for this?
AZ should not have to
Federal GOV should have to !

[George Gervin's Afro]

no their parents and them should get the hell out of the usa and never be welcomed back since they broke the law and got in illegally!

so now you want to kick out American citizens now.. how patriotic of you ducks!

[ducks]

if you are born in the hospital in the USA and your parents are not legal citizens then you should not be either.


you read the consitition
it is even already in there!
watched in one the ca news

[LnGrrrR]

if you are born in the hospital in the USA and your parents are not legal citizens then you should not be either.


you read the consitition
it is even already in there!
watched in one the ca news

You're wrong. I'd explain it, but you wouldn't understand.

[ducks]

a person who studied the consistion in ca said it when they interviewed them on the news

do you study the consistition

[ducks]

it was on kcal news not foxnews or cnn

it is on timewarners station 22 in az

[LnGrrrR]

a person who studied the consistion in ca said it when they interviewed them on the news

do you study the consistition

That person is an idiot then. The exact circumstances whereby an illegal immigrant would give birth to a legal citizen were discussed when they were bringing up arguments for the 14th Amendment in the first place, and since it was passed, you can assume that reasoning was shot down.

If a person is saying something retarded, it's retarded. It doesn't matter who the person saying it is, or how much they've studied that matter. It's still retarded.

[ChumpDumper]

Why do we even have a border patrol then? Why do we have immigration laws?

What is the border patrol supposed to do if you think they shouldn't talk to suspected illegal immigrants?They weren't illegal immigrants, you colossal dumbass. That's why it shouldn't have gotten to the feds.

[jack sommerset]

I'm outraged!

Wait, it all worked out in the end. No harm, no foul. Keep posting more stories like this though. Then at the end of the year we can come of with a tally.


Illegals here: 15,000,000-20,000,000

Illegally deported anywhere: 1

[Winehole23]

Illegally deported anywhere: 1 You said illegally. That would imply the commission of a crime by LEOs. How about we say erroneously instead, to cover accidental or otherwise unintentional deportations.

[Winehole23]

Even wrongfully would be a better characterization: it is wrong to deport US citizens without good cause.

[Winehole23]

With that stipulation, I'd be willing to lay almost any amount of money that the number of erroneous or wrongful deportations by US officials to date, is more than one.

[jack sommerset]

You said illegally. That would imply the commission of a crime by LEOs. How about we say erroneously instead, to cover accidental or otherwise unintentional deportations.

Sounds good!

[Winehole23]

Well, wanna bet the number is higher than one?

[Winehole23]

We can even put a time restriction on it.

[jack sommerset]

We can even put a time restriction on it.

So this 1 dude doesn't count because he wasn't gone long enough? Actually crunch the numbers however you want. I bet you know what side of the fence I will be on.

[Winehole23]

So this 1 dude doesn't count because he wasn't gone long enough? They all count. What are you talking about?

[The Reckoning]

legal citizen born in houston but speaks very little english? sounds fishy to me (no pun intented).

[Winehole23]

Actually crunch the numbers however you want. I bet you know what side of the fence I will be on.Yeah. You telegraph it.

[Winehole23]

legal citizen born in houston but speaks very little english? sounds fishy to me (no pun intented).Born in Houston raised in Mexico, returned to Texas recently.

[The Reckoning]

did the Mexican border patrol deport him?

[The Reckoning]

wait...so he was driving without a license? whats up with all these stories about Mexicans not driving without a license and then getting deported? if youre an American citizen and want to drive a car, get a license! that would prevent all this crap from happening in the first place.

[Winehole23]

Good advice Bubba Ho-Tep.

But in this case the deportee surrendered valid documents (including his birth certificate) authenticating his US citizenship to Customs. These valid documents were not honored by the US authorities, who deported him erroneously.

Such manner of proof ought not be set aside so lightly, don't you think?

[Oh, Gee!!]

wait...so he was driving without a license? whats up with all these stories about Mexicans not driving without a license and then getting deported? if youre an American citizen and want to drive a car, get a license! that would prevent all this crap from happening in the first place.

he (the deported guy) was the passenger, and he (the deported guy) had a birth certificate and ID card on him that established that he is a U.S. citizen.

[Oh, Gee!!]

what's the big deal, just show 'em your I.D. and dey'll leave you alone. er, not really.

[Winehole23]

If you respect the right at issue -- for US citizens to reside freely in their native country, and to come and go as they please -- I think you've gotta stand up for this guy, whatever his human frailties.

If you don't give a fuck, that's valid too.

If you think he's not really American... well, God bless you. I think you're wrong.

[ElNono]

Even wrongfully would be a better characterization: it is wrong to deport US citizens without good cause.

Is there ANY cause to deport a US citizen? Wouldn't you need to deport him/her to the... US?

[Winehole23]

Is there ANY cause to deport a US citizen? Ostensibly not.

[Winehole23]

Maybe because he/she doesn't speak English well enough to impress US Customs officers. Didn't that essentially happen here?

[Winehole23]

The officers decided early on they didn't believe the guy, then ignored his valid documentation proving them wrong.

[ElNono]

Indeed. And if you think about it, this happened TWICE in this case. Unbelievable.

[Yonivore]

And I give you Democrat County Supervisor Peggy West of Milwaukee, Wisconsin...

B-VMMweYcd8

...'nough said.

[The Reckoning]

he (the deported guy) was the passenger, and he (the deported guy) had a birth certificate and ID card on him that established that he is a U.S. citizen.

and the deported guy wasnt wearing a seatbelt. he was still breaking the law.

if youre a citizen, dont break the law and the law won't break you.

i think it's ridiculous that he was deported, and that was a poor job on law enforcement's part, but this could have been prevented if they had been law abiding citizens.

[Winehole23]

*Doesn't blame Arizona for searching for a solution.*

If that's a straightforward approval of what AZ did, it's pretty weak brew. Honestly, it seemed more like weaselly, hedged phrasing to me.

Who can ever be blamed for seeking a solution to a problem?

[LnGrrrR]

Offtopic, but Bubba Ho-tep kicks ass.

[The Reckoning]

^

agreed.

[ElNono]

and the deported guy wasnt wearing a seatbelt. he was still breaking the law.

if youre a citizen, dont break the law and the law won't break you.

i think it's ridiculous that he was deported, and that was a poor job on law enforcement's part, but this could have been prevented if they had been law abiding citizens.

Getting a ticket... being handed to federal authorities... interrogated for 8 hours... deported to Mexico... it's all the same... :rolleyes

[The Reckoning]

i think im being misquoted here.

let me rephrase myself...

DONT BREAK THE LAW

get a license if you want to drive. wear a seatbelt when youre riding. if you don't want to do so, be prepared for the consequences (however idiotic) if you're not able to effectively communicate with an officer.

[Winehole23]

Indeed. And if you think about it, this happened TWICE in this case. Unbelievable.Not so surprising to me. Guild pride and CYA beat zeal for the truth some of the time.

One sidebar of this incident that should be more of a main focus IMO, is how in entering the US immigration system as a supposed alien, Luis Alberto Delgado was effectively stripped of his rights and privileges as a US citizen, then pressured to sign papers that made his deportation a done deal. That shouldn't happen to any US citizen. Period.

[ElNono]

i think im being misquoted here.

let me rephrase myself...

DONT BREAK THE LAW

get a license if you want to drive. wear a seatbelt when youre riding. if you don't want to do so, be prepared for the consequences (however idiotic) if you're not able to effectively communicate with an officer.

The reason we have certain penalties for certain crimes/misdemeanors is the reason your premise is entirely idiotic.
An American citizen (with a driver license and a birth certificate) with speech difficulties that is caught driving without a seatbelt should NEVER be prepared for 8 hours of interrogations, followed by coercion to sign fraudulent papers, followed by deportation to a foreign country. That's not the penalty for breaking the driving-without-seatbelt law.

[ElNono]

Not so surprising to me. Guild pride and CYA beat zeal for the truth some of the time.

One sidebar of this incident that should be more of a main focus IMO, is how in entering the US immigration system as a supposed alien, Luis Alberto Delgado was effectively stripped of his rights and privileges as a US citizen, then pressured to sign papers that made his deportation a done deal. That shouldn't happen to any US citizen. Period.

Like I said, the lawsuit that will ensue WILL be costly...

[Wild Cobra]

So...it's working? The ILLEGAL immigrants are leaving and going back to Mexico?

And thats a bad thing?
LOL...

They're probably just infiltrating other states. Hopefully they go to the "sanctuary cities."

[The Reckoning]

The reason we have certain penalties for certain crimes/misdemeanors is the reason your premise is entirely idiotic.
An American citizen (with a driver license and a birth certificate) with speech difficulties that is caught driving without a seatbelt should NEVER be prepared for 8 hours of interrogations, followed by coercion to sign fraudulent papers, followed by deportation to a foreign country. That's not the penalty for breaking the driving-without-seatbelt law.


ok, so if you were riding with someone who didnt have a license, and you did not speak english very well (or neither did they, for that matter), would you be conscious enough to atleast wear your seatbelt?

first of all, i wouldnt even ride with someone who didnt have a license unless it was an emergency (like if i got bit by a coral snake or something and had to go to the hospital). im not saying they deserved what happened to them, and im just as outraged as yall are.

all im saying is that recently, the people who are having immigration problems did some stupid shit to get themselves in that position. it's not like they're being hunted down in their homes gestapo-style.

[ElNono]

ok, so if you were riding with someone who didnt have a license, and you did not speak english very well (or neither did they, for that matter), would you be conscious enough to atleast wear your seatbelt?

They're completely unrelated offenses. What if I forgot to buckle up?
Then I should be subject to the penalty reserved for that offense: a ticket.


first of all, i wouldnt even ride with someone who didnt have a license unless it was an emergency (like if i got bit by a coral snake or something and had to go to the hospital). im not saying they deserved what happened to them, and im just as outraged as yall are.

Since you're not operating the vehicle, you're effectively not incurring in any illicit activity by being a passenger in a vehicle being driven by somebody without a driver license. We don't even know if Delgado was aware that the driver didn't have a license (although, it's entirely irrelevant as far as Delgado is concerned). If Delgado was not wearing a seatbelt, then he should have been handed a ticket.


all im saying is that recently, the people who are having immigration problems did some stupid shit to get themselves in that position. it's not like they're being hunted down in their homes gestapo-style.

Delgado, the American citizen, obviously didn't have any immigration problems. If anything, he presented both a verifiable state-issued driver license, and a verifiable US birth certificate.

[Winehole23]

Who cares if he did stupid shit? Dude didn't deserve to be treated like that. In no wise.

[Winehole23]

I can see your point that maybe DElgado did not heed the dictates of reasonable caution as fastidiously as he might have, and that this decision may have led to his fateful encounter with law enforcement. But that doesn't mean he deserved the result or the process that led to it.

[ElNono]

He obviously was too brown to be handed just a ticket... or just to have his driver license verified... or to have his birth certificate checked... :jack

[The Reckoning]

delgado has immigration problems now, doesn't he? doesn't help him very much if his family was playing the system in mexico, either.

i care if people do stupid shit like driving without a license. i don't want them on the road, period. im not arguing against their rights of citizenship or how the feds should handle them. im saying that this whole situation could have been prevented if the driver was legally a driver and the passenger used discretion in riding with him. is it that hard to swallow?

i never said they deserved to be treated like that, either.

[ElNono]

delgado has immigration problems now, doesn't he?

He doesn't. As soon as a judge certifies he's an American citizen and notifies ICE, it's game over. Then the lawsuit against both the police and border patrol agents start.


doesn't help him very much if his family was playing the system in mexico, either.

What his family did in Mexico is irrelevant to US authorities. Ultimately, the problem is for his Mexican family in Mexico.


i care if people do stupid shit like driving without a license. i don't want them on the road, period. im not arguing against their rights of citizenship or how the feds should handle them. im saying that this whole situation could have been prevented if the driver was legally a driver and the passenger used discretion in riding with him. is it that hard to swallow? i never said they deserved to be treated like that, either.

We all get pulled over for a reason or another. I got pulled over because a light broke while I was driving. No way to avoid it. I shouldn't expect more than a ticket at the worst. But Delgado wasn't driving. The guy that was got booked and jailed until he posted bond. The system worked for him, it didn't for Delgado.

[Winehole23]

is it that hard to swallow?I acknowledged the point two posts above your last. Do you require additional recognition of some kind?

[Drachen]

Don't really feel like reading through this whole thread, but the premise of the OP is pretty bad. Should we decriminalize murder since cops have framed innocent people in the past? How about crack?

[Oh, Gee!!]

and the deported guy wasnt wearing a seatbelt. he was still breaking the law.

if youre a citizen, dont break the law and the law won't break you.

i think it's ridiculous that he was deported, and that was a poor job on law enforcement's part, but this could have been prevented if they had been law abiding citizens.

he was violating a traffic code (traffic ticket/fine only offense). He was no more a law breaker than the person who doesn't use a blinker. stop overstating the severity of what he did.

[George Gervin's Afro]

And I give you Democrat County Supervisor Peggy West of Milwaukee, Wisconsin...

B-VMMweYcd8

...'nough said.

what does a Democrat Supervisor from Milwaukee have to do with this? Nothing..'nough said..

[Oh, Gee!!]

im saying that this whole situation could have been prevented if the driver was legally a driver and the passenger used discretion in riding with him. is it that hard to swallow?

yes, because a citizen was deported when he should have been given a class C ticket and sent on his merry way. the situation (wrongful deportation) should have been prevented by law enforcement, not by the private citizen. the government bears the blame when things like this get messed up. in fact, the citizen in this case went above and beyond by showing birth certificate, social security, and I.D. (way more proof of citizenship than most of us could produce upon request) that proved his citizenship. That should have ended the encounter, and the passenger should be facing a $500.00 fine in municipal court somewhere for not wearing a seatbelt, and not barred from entering his own country.

[George Gervin's Afro]

You know all of the talk from the obama-is-taking-away-our -civil- liberites crowd up until now has been that our freedom is at stake... yet have no problem with an American citizen being detained and deported because of the way they spoke..

[jack sommerset]

Any legal Americans get deported today?

[Oh, Gee!!]

Any legal Americans get deported today?

probably

[jack sommerset]

probably

Link?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Any legal Americans get deported today?

why do you care?

[Winehole23]

Don't really feel like reading through this whole thread, but the premise of the OP is pretty bad. Should we decriminalize murder since cops have framed innocent people in the past? How about crack?The framing is totally bogus. This event is unconnected to the AZ law, but it's still worth looking at in its own right, IMO.

[Wild Cobra]

The framing is totally bogus. This event is unconnected to the AZ law, but it's still worth looking at in its own right, IMO.
I agree with you there.

I have stated in the past that certain laws themselves didn't bother me, but I was fearful of abuse that can be made of them. The thing is, the OP was trying to tie the Arizona law to something happening elsewhere, being utterly ridiculous, especially when it just mirrors federal law.

I'm not afraid of most laws, but rather the ones that grant access to information protected by the Bill of Rights, and the way unethical people will abuse their positions in using such information.