Veteran's house seized and sold for $3,500

[RandomGuy]

Army captain serving in Iraq had his paid-up, $300,000 house siezed by his homeowners association for about 2 months worth of dues.

He got NOTHING from the sale.

The association got $3,500, to cover the fees plus legal costs.

Yes, that's right. They seized his house and sold it for $3,500.

The laws allow for this, and Texas has the most association-friendly laws on the books. Astonishingly enough a Republican state senator runs the largest association management company in the US.

What.
The.
Fuck?

"You owe us $600, so we can seize and sell your house in less than a month."


June 29, 2010 Capt. Mike Clauer was serving in Iraq last year as company commander of an Army National Guard unit assigned to escort convoys. It was exceedingly dangerous work — explosive devices buried in the road were a constant threat to the lives of Clauer and his men.

He was halfway through his deployment when he got a bolt from the blue — a frantic phone call from his wife, May, back in Texas.

"She was bawling on the phone and was telling me that the HOA [homeowners association] had foreclosed on our house, and it was sold," he says. "And I couldn't believe that could even happen."

Clauer had a hard time understanding what his wife was saying. His $300,000 house was already completely paid for. Could it be possible that their home was foreclosed on and sold because his wife had missed two payments of their HOA dues?

In many states it is not difficult for an HOA to foreclose on a member's home for past dues even if the amount owed is just a few hundred dollars.

"I was really in a hurry trying to get home before my family was living on the streets," Clauer says.

Sold For A Steal

But by the time he got back to Texas, it was too late. The Clauers' four-bedroom, 3,500-square-foot home had been sold on the courthouse steps for just $3,500 — enough to cover outstanding HOA dues and legal costs.

The new owner quickly sold it for $135,000 and netted a tidy profit.

"Basically it's everything to us," Clauer says. "Having a house like this paid for was huge for us, for our retirement plans. We thought we were so far ahead, and now it's like we're starting from the beginning."


Clauer's $300,000 home was completely paid for when his HOA foreclosed on it because his wife had missed two association payments. The 3,500-square-foot home was sold for $3,500 on the courthouse steps.

Lawyers for the HOA say that while Clauer's case is regrettable, it was his and his wife's fault for not paying their dues in a timely manner.

"The fact of the matter is, the laws of the state of Texas allow the homeowners association to file assessment liens on properties who haven't paid their assessments, and they also allow foreclosure on those liens," says Patrick Whitaker, who represents the HOA. "And the homeowners association followed the letter of the law."

Beg For Mercy

And in 33 states, an HOA does not need to go before a judge to collect on the liens.

It's called nonjudicial foreclosure, and in practice it means a house can be sold on the courthouse steps with no judge or arbitrator involved. In Texas the process period is a mere 27 days — the shortest of any state.

David Kahne, a Houston lawyer who advises homeowners, says that in Texas, the law is so weighted in favor of HOAs, he advises people that instead of hiring him, they should call their association and beg for mercy.

"I suggest you call the association and cry," he says.

If a homeowner misses a couple of association dues payments, the $250 or $500 they owe often becomes $3,000 after the association's lawyers add their legal fees, Kahne says.

It's not the HOA that has to pay the lawyer's bill but the delinquent homeowner. If the homeowner wishes to contest and loses, the owner is on the hook for legal fees that could run deep into the tens of thousands of dollars.

Kahne says that as the economy has gone under, HOA management companies and lawyers have been making millions off homeowners through this foreclosure process.

"We're having literally thousands of lawsuits filed over very small amounts of money," Kahne says. "And those very small amounts of money rapidly become large amounts of money when the association attorneys add their bills."

Suddenly faced with a demand that they pay $3,000 immediately or lose their home, many disbelieving homeowners don't know where to turn.

With the recession, foreclosure filings for delinquent HOA assessments in Texas have increased from about 1 percent of all home foreclosures to more than 10 percent currently, according to the industry.

'Won't You Be My Neighbor'

Over the past 20 years, HOAs have exploded across Texas. While there are 1,100 municipalities, there are now 30,000 HOAs. And these associations have far more power to take away a citizen's home than any city or county in Texas.

The perception that the balance of power has swung too far toward HOAs has begun to permeate the Texas Legislature. Reform legislation has passed the Texas House of Representatives, but no bill has been able to make it through the state Senate.

Basically it's everything to us. Having a house like this paid for was huge for us, for our retirement plans. We thought we were so far ahead, and now it's like we're starting from the beginning.- Capt. Mike Clauer, whose house was foreclosed on after two missed HOA payments

"Associations are a collection of neighbors," says Republican state Sen. John Carona, who represents Dallas. "The goal has to be to work well together — have a harmonious community — and to create a lifestyle that people enjoy and want to be a part of."

In addition to representing Dallas, Carona owns the largest HOA management company in the country — Associa, which has more than 100 offices, 6,000 employees and 7,000 HOA clients in 30 states and Mexico.

Carona defends the rights of HOAs to foreclose for delinquent dues, even for small amounts.

"If an association did not have a means, a forceful means, to collect that money from any homeowner who, for whatever reason, couldn't pay, it places an unfair burden on every other owner in that association," Carona says. "And a burden, quite candidly, that those other members didn't bargain for."

There have been complaints that some members of HOA boards have bought HOA-foreclosed properties for a pittance, and then sold them for a hefty profit.

In Texas, there are no laws to prevent this. Carona says the best way to address this apparent conflict of interest is not by passing new state laws but by letting the HOAs handle it internally through modification of the association's constitution.

"I think that an association can avoid that type of thing by adopting conflict-of-interest rules," he says.

Closing Loopholes

Republican state Rep. Burt Solomons from North Texas has been trying in vain to pass HOA reform legislation. He says during state legislative hearings there was no shortage of outraged homeowners, but he acknowledges that the HOAs, their property management companies and their lawyers fought back effectively.

Pending a legal case, Clauer, his wife, May, and his daughters, Kirsten and Kamryn, are still living in the home that was foreclosed on.

Solomons says HOA board members and advocates testify and say, "'We need the power to access and fine and foreclose, and we need the money. And we look for people in violation of the rules and restrictions that we put in place.'"

"And they drive around in golf carts looking for them," Solomons says.

In theory, HOAs are only supposed to foreclose for nonpayment of dues. But Solomons says that through a loophole in Texas law, in practice, HOAs can foreclose for nonpayment of HOA fines, too. Solomons watched with frustration last year as his reform bill died in the Senate.

Legal Recourse

As for Clauer, he's gone from fighting in Iraq to fighting his HOA in Texas. And if he weren't in the military, Clauer would have no legal recourse at this point.

But in a spasm of gratitude in 2003, Congress passed the Servicemembers Civil Relief Act, which was supposed to prevent nonjudicial foreclosures against military personnel fighting oversees.

"Hopefully we're going to get the house back," Clauer says. "That's what we're fighting for — that the judge will understand that this was illegal. That the HOA can't do what they've done."

If a federal court decides in favor of the Clauers, the foreclosure and subsequent sales of their home would have to be unwound and the deed returned to them. If they lose, the captain's nice, paid-for, suburban home would be lost to his family forever. The case goes to court early next year

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128078864&ps=cprs

I will never, EVER belong to a homeowner's association. Fuck that.

[Stringer_Bell]

HOA will fuck you any way they can, charge you for the clean-up, and hope you catch a ride someplace else.

But people have won in Texas, it happened in SA not too long ago.

[Wild Cobra]

Sad story, but that's why you read and understand any contract carefully.

[symple19]

I hope the people who did this to Clauer (HOA) die.

Homeowners associations are evil institutions that should be avoided at all costs.

[TeyshaBlue]

It's a ridiculous situation that, had the HOA had a modicum of decency, could've been avoided. That being said, the backstory to this is the wife received several notices from the HOA..even certified letters, but she didn't open them because she was afraid to. Had she bothered to read the letters, chances are this could've been nipped in the bud at the beginning of the issue.
I'm not in any way excusing the douchebaggery of the HOA, but there was more than one solution.....

[baseline bum]

I would take my M-16 and spray their next meeting, making sure not a single douchebag left in anything but a bag. What a bunch of fucking cocksuckers.

[rjv]

bet that HOA always talks a good game about backing our veterans.

[Veterinarian]

That story gave me douche chills.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

so this dude is overseas fighting for his country while some douchebags take everything his wife and him have been working for their entire lives over an unpaid $600 debt??

What a load of crap!

You know what people should do? Start donations for this family. It doesn't take much, say like 5 dollar donation each to help them regain what those fuckers practically stole from them.

[baseline bum]

The wife should have burned the house to the ground. Or at least taken a sledgehammer to as much of it as possible.

[baseline bum]

so this dude is overseas fighting for his country while some douchebags take everything his wife and him have been working for their entire lives over an unpaid $600 debt??

What a load of crap!

You know what people should do? Start donations for this family. It doesn't take much, say like 5 dollar donation each to help them regain what those fuckers practically stole from them.

That doesn't do anything to punish these assholes for robbing this guy for $2900.

[CubanMustGo]

The problem is state law allows HOAs to pull this sort of crap. There is no way in hell they should be able to foreclose no matter how much fucking money they are owed. They could allow HOAs to attach liens that would be resolved at such time as the houses are sold - everyone gets their money and nobody gets screwed out of a house.

I read another version of this story (Dallas Morning News?) and interestingly there were a number of these HOA foreclosed homes that the same guy ended up paying pennies for the dollar on and then turning over immediately for $100K or more of profit each time. You tell me there's not something fucked up there ... no way in hell a home in this neighborhood would sell for $3500 at a foreclosure auction unless nobody but the HOA and this guy knew when and where it was going to happen.

[Wild Cobra]

The problem is state law allows HOAs to pull this sort of crap. There is no way in hell they should be able to foreclose no matter how much fucking money they are owed. They could allow HOAs to attach liens that would be resolved at such time as the houses are sold - everyone gets their money and nobody gets screwed out of a house.

I read another version of this story (Dallas Morning News?) and interestingly there were a number of these HOA foreclosed homes that the same guy ended up paying pennies for the dollar on and then turning over immediately for $100K or more of profit each time. You tell me there's not something fucked up there ... no way in hell a home in this neighborhood would sell for $3500 at a foreclosure auction unless nobody but the HOA and this guy knew when and where it was going to happen.
Power can be a corrupting factor in any venture. Government or not. One reason we need less laws and regulations, because they get abused.

[boutons_deux]

When a bank forecloses, they sell the house, take what's owed to the bank, and give the rest, if any, to the foreclosure victim.

There Otta Be A Law

The HOA probably had a deal with the house flipper who may have given the HOA some kickback to be notified in private of the deal.

[RandomGuy]

The problem is state law allows HOAs to pull this sort of crap. There is no way in hell they should be able to foreclose no matter how much fucking money they are owed. They could allow HOAs to attach liens that would be resolved at such time as the houses are sold - everyone gets their money and nobody gets screwed out of a house.

I read another version of this story (Dallas Morning News?) and interestingly there were a number of these HOA foreclosed homes that the same guy ended up paying pennies for the dollar on and then turning over immediately for $100K or more of profit each time. You tell me there's not something fucked up there ... no way in hell a home in this neighborhood would sell for $3500 at a foreclosure auction unless nobody but the HOA and this guy knew when and where it was going to happen.

The article in the OP hinted that some of the people buying these houses had connections to the HOA's in question.

I seriously would consider murder if someone scammed me out of my house like this. "Temporary insanity" would'nt be a high bar to clear for a jury based on that, even if I was dumb enough to get caught...

[CosmicCowboy]

My guess is the buyer was an attorney that was in on the deal and someones getting a kickback.

[RandomGuy]

The problem is state law allows HOAs to pull this sort of crap. There is no way in hell they should be able to foreclose no matter how much fucking money they are owed. They could allow HOAs to attach liens that would be resolved at such time as the houses are sold - everyone gets their money and nobody gets screwed out of a house.

I would have no problem with this whatsoever.

This is a case where laws have clearly been written that act against the public good. I am not normally into conspiracies, but I smell some business interests pushing for these laws at the state level under the radar.

It does not surprise me that some scammer has discovered this rather nasty trick and taken advantage of it.

[DarrinS]

HOA's suck.


And what a great way to maintain your fellow homeowners' property values by selling that house for $3500.


Doesn't really make sense to me.

[ElNono]

Power can be a corrupting factor in any venture. Government or not. One reason we need less laws and regulations, because they get abused.

You want less regulations on HOA? You see the shit they're pulling right now, and you want them to have more leeway?

[DarrinS]

And I like how RG managed to work in a GOP "fuck you" jab at the end of his post.

[Wild Cobra]

You want less regulations on HOA? You see the shit they're pulling right now, and you want them to have more leeway?
Please step back a moment and smell the truth.

They entered into a legal contract. When we start making laws to protect people from their own stupidity, where does that end?

[ploto]

Obviously, someone has a deal to foreclose on these houses and get a kick back on the profits when they are flipped. That being said, I do not understand the wife.

[CosmicCowboy]

Obviously, someone has a deal to foreclose on these houses and get a kick back on the profits when they are flipped. That being said, I do not understand the wife.

She must be good in the sack cuz she must be dumb as a box of rocks to have just ignored all the certified letters she would have gotten before the foreclosure could be official.

[baseline bum]

You want less regulations on HOA? You see the shit they're pulling right now, and you want them to have more leeway?

This surprises you because .... ?

[Stringer_Bell]

Please step back a moment and smell the truth.

They entered into a legal contract. When we start making laws to protect people from their own stupidity, where does that end?

Sure, it's in the contract, but how American is it to take a man's house when 1) the house itself is totally paid for 2) he's fighting for his country abroad 3) the money he owes is not anywhere equal to the money his house is worth 4) the people he owes money to are bureaucrats that don't offer any service to him other than to say "you can live here if you pay us off twice a year" 5) there's obvious shady business involved in the auctioning and selling of the house?

Regardless if his wife is dumb as shit to not open the certified letters she presumably signed off more, all you Tea Party folks should sack the fuck up and protest HOAs because they don't do shit for anyone. Go ahead, take away my pool rights and don't invite me for pizza nights at the community center...suck my dick you fucking liberal cunts!!!! :ihit

[jack sommerset]

That sort of shit gets people killed.

[SnakeBoy]

I would take my M-16 and spray their next meeting, making sure not a single douchebag left in anything but a bag. What a bunch of fucking cocksuckers.

If it happened to me I might actually do that.

I avoided buying a house anywhere with an HOA because I didn't want to get permission to plant a tree, paint my house etc. I had no idea they had that kind of power.

[baseline bum]

That sort of shit gets people killed.

It should, but it won't. Raiding what's probably a man's life savings over $600 and a technicality should be punishable by death. The world ain't fair though. :depressed

[elbamba]

Kill them and blame it on PTSD. What I do not understand is why the lady did not pay it off when the first notice came along. My guess is that there are notice requirements in the law where they have to spell out exactly what the HOA is going to do.

That said, the law has to change. People can argue that there needs to be less regulation but we have laws to protect us not make us homeless. If these people had gone a year without paying and a judgment is obtained I would give the HOA some latitude. But being able to sell property without a court order seems like a constitutional violation to me. Deprivation of property without due process of law if you ask me.

[jack sommerset]

It should, but it won't. Raiding what's probably a man's life savings over $600 and a technicality should be punishable by death. The world ain't fair though. :depressed

I had no clue HOA had that kind of power. I have no clue why anyone would want to live in that kind of neighborhood. They are all over Plano and Allen. I thought is was sort of a waste of money in the first place, you know for some kids to swim in a public pool, some cut grass, keep the poor folks out (HELLO,poor folks can't afford 300,000 homes) that sort of thing but now I am just floored! FLOORED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[elbamba]

Please step back a moment and smell the truth.

They entered into a legal contract. When we start making laws to protect people from their own stupidity, where does that end?

Are you familiar with adhesion contracts? These people don't sound like morons. They had paid off a 300,000 dollar house. I would bet most people on here have not paid off that kind of debt.

Sadly, most people can't afford to buy a nice home that is not a part of a neighborhood with a HOA. Like the article said, there are over 30,000 in 1100 municipalities.

[elbamba]

On a side note, I have prevailed several times under the Servicemember Civil relief Act. It depends on venue but if you can get a promilitary judge, you are usually in pretty good shape. If not, try it to a jury.

[ElNono]

Please step back a moment and smell the truth.

They entered into a legal contract. When we start making laws to protect people from their own stupidity, where does that end?

How about we strive for fair contracts? Not contracts that stipulate that a $600 debt can foreclose a $300,000 house, and invite a scam where the house gets auctioned for $3,500 and some shark turns around and sells it for $100,000...

If you don't think there has to be some kind of regulation there, then you need to get yourself checked.

[Wild Cobra]

Are you familiar with adhesion contracts? These people don't sound like morons. They had paid off a 300,000 dollar house. I would bet most people on here have not paid off that kind of debt.

Sadly, most people can't afford to buy a nice home that is not a part of a neighborhood with a HOA. Like the article said, there are over 30,000 in 1100 municipalities.
My god. You cannot mix emotion with law.

I agree it shouldn't happen. Problem is, you create other problems when you protect people from their own stupidity.

Tell me, how would you craft a law that would not encroach on other people's legitimate ventures?

[ElNono]

This surprises you because .... ?

I honestly thought he mistyped. It's really hard to fathom that there are douches like him running around this world.

[ElNono]

My god. You cannot mix emotion with law.

I agree it shouldn't happen. Problem is, you create other problems when you protect people from their own stupidity.

Tell me, how would you craft a law that would not encroach on other people's legitimate ventures?

In a nutshell, you don't know what an adhesion contract is...

Furthermore, if you agree it shouldn't happen, there's ways to prevent them, and that's called legislation. Both you and I know that much.

[Wild Cobra]

In a nutshell, you don't know what an adhesion contract is...

Furthermore, if you agree it shouldn't happen, there's ways to prevent them, and that's called legislation. Both you and I know that much.
So are you implying they couldn't have bought a house in a different location under different rules?

[ElNono]

So are you implying they couldn't have bought a house in a different location under different rules?

I'm implying that swindling a serviceman of his life savings off a $600 debt should be catalogued as fraud by any sane person. And if that's not coded in law, then it should be. Legitimate venture my ass.

[CosmicCowboy]

OK, I'm like the poster child for conservative/libertarian values but I'm calling bullshit on this one. They should get their house back. No question. They will when it goes to court but it should have never happened. THEN they need to find the connection between the buyer of the house and the HOA and put those cocksuckers in jail. Maybe just a couple years of getting their assholes stretched but they need to set an example. That shit is just wrong.

[elbamba]

My god. You cannot mix emotion with law.

I agree it shouldn't happen. Problem is, you create other problems when you protect people from their own stupidity.

Tell me, how would you craft a law that would not encroach on other people's legitimate ventures?

Give me a break this is not emotion. There is no justice or equity in taking a $300,000 home for a $600.00 payment to the HOA.

Every citizen is entitled to the protection of the 14th amendment which protects us from states depriving us of life, liberty and property without due process.

Do you believe that being able to obtain a lien and order to sell real property without a judge's signature doesn't violate the 14th amendment?

This is a stupid law that does not protect the people. This guy should be celebrated in his return from serving his country, not fighting to regain his property.

[DarkReign]

nevermind

If you Texans had one shred of political will to get something changed, this would be it.

Unbelievable.

[DarkReign]

For two fucking months?!

Outrage, wouldnt roll anywhere else.

[elbamba]

Tell me, how would you craft a law that would not encroach on other people's legitimate ventures?

I'll tell you how I would draft the law governing a HOA taking a judgment against a homeowner.

1. If a HO does fails to pay monthly dues for 3 consecutive months, an action can be brough in the circuit court.

2. Notice must be given to the HO that an action for recovery of fees has been brought against them.

3. HO shall have the opportunity to pay the fees in full plus the costs of filing the petition (no atty fees).

4. If HO is unable to pay, judgment will be granted in favor of the HOA

5. Judgment in a civil court shall constitute a lien upon the real property

6. Under the HOA Act, HOA cannot petition for a writ to sale real property until the lien has been in effect for one year.

7. If at the end of one year, if the dues have not been paid in full for each and every month, HOA can petition the court for writ to sale the real property of HO.

8. HO has until the date of sale to pay in full, all liens and court costs.

9. Atty fees will not be awarded for any portion of this action.

10. Any provision of the HOA contract that a judge rules to be invalid may invalidate the contract in its entirety.

How is that. Everyone can be happy.

[jack sommerset]

WC is right. As sick as it makes me, you don't give someone the right to sell your $300,000 home so they can collect $600. I am disgusted by this but the dumbasses did sign on. I do hope someones gets thier ass killed over this though.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Army captain serving in Iraq had his paid-up, $300,000 house siezed by his homeowners association for about 2 months worth of dues.

He got NOTHING from the sale.

The association got $3,500, to cover the fees plus legal costs.

Yes, that's right. They seized his house and sold it for $3,500.

The laws allow for this, and Texas has the most association-friendly laws on the books. Astonishingly enough a Republican state senator runs the largest association management company in the US.

What.
The.
Fuck?

"You owe us $600, so we can seize and sell your house in less than a month."



http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128078864&ps=cprs

I will never, EVER belong to a homeowner's association. Fuck that.

Read about this in the DMN last Saturday. Pretty sad. But Texas loves their HOA to be strong. Will of the people.

Luckily they have not kicked his family out on the streets (yet). And the muslim who bought their house and sold it for incredible profit allowed them to nix the sale provided he got his original money back IIRC.

[ElNono]

WC is right. As sick as it makes me, you don't give someone the right to sell your $300,000 home so they can collect $600. I am disgusted by this but the dumbasses did sign on. I do hope someones gets thier ass killed over this though.

That's not entirely true. HOA's can and will change their rules and regulations (constitutions) from time to time, determined solely by board members. To compound the problem, the vast majority of the boards are very secretive about their rules and votes. Even selling your house sometimes is very difficult, especially if you're in the middle of litigation with the HOA.

Here's a small primer (http://loan.yahoo.com/m/primer13.html) from yahoo.com that should be mandatory reading...

[LnGrrrR]

They entered into a legal contract. When we start making laws to protect people from their own stupidity, where does that end?

Do you have an iPhone or any other similar device? Did you read through the entire contract before you accepted it? How about when they put out patches? Do you read through the entire contract before you accept? (Note: I believe last time Apple pushed a patch, the contract was roughly 64 pages.)

[LnGrrrR]

So are you implying they couldn't have bought a house in a different location under different rules?

Right on! And couldn't those darkies all just move to Northern states if they were tired of Southern states using Jim Crow laws?

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm not saying HOA's don't have some value if managed properly. I intentionally bought in an area without one. It's a little pocket area in north central SA surrounded by normal subdivisions but our lots are a lot bigger (one acre plus). A coyote bought a house/lot two doors down from me and moved in about a dozen travel trailers in his back yard for the wetbacks to lay over in. There wasn't a fucking thing we could do about it. City of SA didn't give a shit. Feds/ICE didn't give a shit.

[Yonivore]

I think it sucks and, yes, I think if they can find a way to void the contract, they should...but:

1) Read every contract you sign. If you don't like the terms, don't sign it.

2) I heard the soldier was home the entire time letter were being mailed to the residence; they just weren't opened until after he was deployed.



Right on! And couldn't those darkies all just move to Northern states if they were tired of Southern states using Jim Crow laws?
WTF? I'm not familiar with African-Americans being willing parties to either the drafting, passing, or enforcement of Jim Crow laws.

I guess we could have asked Senator Byrd but, alas, that's no longer possible.

[Stringer_Bell]

Right on! And couldn't those darkies all just move to Northern states if they were tired of Southern states using Jim Crow laws?

Hey! I don't like what you're implying here. States rights, woot!! :downspin:

[Stringer_Bell]

Read about this in the DMN last Saturday. Pretty sad. But Texas loves their HOA to be strong. Will of the people.

Luckily they have not kicked his family out on the streets (yet). And the muslim who bought their house and sold it for incredible profit allowed them to nix the sale provided he got his original money back IIRC.

A Muslim buying his house sounds kind of poetic.

[ElNono]

This is the actual problem here...


In addition to representing Dallas, Carona owns the largest HOA management company in the country — Associa, which has more than 100 offices, 6,000 employees and 7,000 HOA clients in 30 states and Mexico.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I think that his wife was home when the mail was delivered but she was like depressed and worried about her husband overseas and did not check the mail and it just piled up on the table. She was too stupid of a frau to realize she had bills to pay.

In a sense.....its kinda their fault.

[LnGrrrR]

I agree with the others that the wife is dumb, but picture it this way:

What if he was a single captain, and had to deploy at short notice to a remote area? The HOA might not know, or the Capt might not have had time to contact them. 2 mos is not a lot of leeway, and then the Capt's house would have been sold all the same.

It's nearly the same situation, except in one instance there was someone capable of opening up the mail, and no one capable in the 2nd. The actions taken by the HOA are the same in both instances.

[LnGrrrR]

WTF? I'm not familiar with African-Americans being willing parties to either the drafting, passing, or enforcement of Jim Crow laws.


This was in regards to the idea that if homeowners don't like the prevalance of HOA, they can look somewhere else for a place to live.

[Yonivore]

This was in regards to the idea that if homeowners don't like the prevalance of HOA, they can look somewhere else for a place to live.
Kind of a stretch, LnGrrrR; especially for you.

Anyway, I had no trouble finding a non-HOA subdivision. And, not all HOA's are as prickish as the one in the story. Otherwise, we'd be hearing about these cases all the time.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

$3600 annually on a $300,000 home?

I'd like to see the list of amenities for that price.

[LnGrrrR]

Kind of a stretch, LnGrrrR; especially for you.

Admittedly. I was trying for tongue-in-cheek; obviously missed the mark with some people. I just think the whole "If they don't like it, they can move/find another place" answer has its logical limits.


Anyway, I had no trouble finding a non-HOA subdivision. And, not all HOA's are as prickish as the one in the story. Otherwise, we'd be hearing about these cases all the time.

Thanks for this mention. To be honest, I wasn't aware how prevalent/evil these HOAs were. That's why my comment was purposefully snarky; needed some backtrack room. :lol

[ElNono]

And, not all HOA's are as prickish as the one in the story. Otherwise, we'd be hearing about these cases all the time.

Really? I hear about disputes with HOAs all the time over here. Not as serious as this one, but I know at least 3 people that are currently litigating their Condo Associations.

[Yonivore]

Really? I hear about disputes with HOAs all the time over here. Not as serious as this one, but I know at least 3 people that are currently litigating their Condo Associations.
"Not as serious as this one..." was the point I was making. It's because of all the other nonsense HOA's bring to the table that I specifically avoided them.

[ElNono]

"Not as serious as this one..." was the point I was making. It's because of all the other nonsense HOA's bring to the table that I specifically avoided them.

:toast

[DarkReign]

Get. The. Law. Changed.

[SnakeBoy]

I'm not saying HOA's don't have some value if managed properly. I intentionally bought in an area without one. It's a little pocket area in north central SA surrounded by normal subdivisions but our lots are a lot bigger (one acre plus). A coyote bought a house/lot two doors down from me and moved in about a dozen travel trailers in his back yard for the wetbacks to lay over in. There wasn't a fucking thing we could do about it. City of SA didn't give a shit. Feds/ICE didn't give a shit.

That's fucked up. We actually have a very weak HOA, dues are $29 per year and basically the only rule is no trailers although the guy across the street from me has one on the back of his property for his pet illegal alien to live in but you can't see it from the road so nobody cares.

[SnakeBoy]

I don't understand why his house wasn't protected by the homestead law.


Texas homestead law exempts qualifying real property from forced sale by general creditors. In Texas, every family and every single adult person is entitled to a homestead exempt from seizure for claims of creditors, except for encumbrances properly fixed on homestead property.(2) Traditionally, courts have liberally construed the homestead protections in the accomplishment of their objective....

2. A homestead may be subjected to forced sale only for debts for (i) purchase money, (ii) taxes due on the homestead, (iii) work and material used in constructing improvements made thereon, (iv) an owelty of partition imposed against the entirety of the property by a court order or by a written agreement of the parties to the partition, including a debt of one spouse in favor of the other spouse resulting from a division or an award of a family homestead in a divorce proceeding, (v) the refinance of a lien against homestead, including a federal tax lien resulting from the tax debt of both spouses, if the homestead is a family homestead, or from the tax debt of the owner, and (vi) a home equity loan meeting the conditions of Section 50(a)(6). Tex. Const. art. XVI, § 50 (Vernon Supp. 1999); Tex. Prop. Code Ann. § 41.001(b). ( Vernon Supp. 1999).

http://library.findlaw.com/1999/Oct/1/126857.html#N_2_

[ElNono]

I don't understand why his house wasn't protected by the homestead law.

Because the HOA laws in the state allow the lien on the house and sale without an actual judge being involved, which precludes any kind of defense.

[SnakeBoy]

Because the HOA laws in the state allow the lien on the house and sale without an actual judge being involved, which precludes any kind of defense.

Well that's just beyond fucked up. Hopefully his case forces the legilature to change the law. Luckily he has some legal recourse because of the federal Servicemembers Civil Relief Act.

The HOA has hired a public relations firm to defend their actions because they are recieving death threats...
http://www.thonline.com/article.cfm?id=287409

Their argument isn't getting any sympathy from me.

[baseline bum]

Well that's just beyond fucked up. Hopefully his case forces the legilature to change the law. Luckily he has some legal recourse because of the federal Servicemembers Civil Relief Act.

The HOA has hired a public relations firm to defend their actions because they are recieving death threats...
http://www.thonline.com/article.cfm?id=287409

Their argument isn't getting any sympathy from me.

It's very sad that those pieces of shit have only received the threats.

[Stringer_Bell]

Get. The. Law. Changed.

:lmao :lmao :lmao

No one would make money for nothing if the law changed...as WC so kindly pointed out these laws represent "legitimate ventures" by proper business folk. Why would you want to impose a law to stop them from getting money and property they are entitled to not out of fairness or logic...but by finely worded black ink?

:greedy

[RandomGuy]

And I like how RG managed to work in a GOP "fuck you" jab at the end of his post.

...?

I didn't say anything snarky.

I merely noted that there is a Republican state senator who just happens to run the largest HOA management company in the country.

If it will make you less butt-hurt that a Republican just *might* be corrupt and/or push legislation through that benefit his particular business interest over the public good, I would also note that the effort to reform the law noted in the article was also led by a Republican.

[RandomGuy]

Here is one for ya.

More horror stories regarding HOA's and texas. Not seizures but fines and levies and so forth, causing all sorts of problems.

http://askinglaw.com/tag/texas-hoa-law/

[RandomGuy]

Here is another for a non-profit organization put together to get reform:
http://www.texashoareform.org/

[RandomGuy]

For those unfamiliar with where to find Texas state laws here is the link, and it includes a mildly useful search function.
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Index.aspx

Title 2, Chapter 5 of the Property Code deals with "Conveyances", i.e. required notices, and contains the first real mention.

Sec. 5.012 of the Property Code details the required notice:

NOTICE OF MEMBERSHIP IN PROPERTY OWNERS' ASSOCIATION CONCERNING THE PROPERTY AT (street address) (name of residential community)

As a purchaser of property in the residential community in which this property is located, you are obligated to be a member of a property owners' association. Restrictive covenants governing the use and occupancy of the property and a dedicatory instrument governing the establishment, maintenance, and operation of this residential community have been or will be recorded in the Real Property Records of the county in which the property is located. Copies of the restrictive covenants and dedicatory instrument may be obtained from the county clerk.

You are obligated to pay assessments to the property owners' association. The amount of the assessments is subject to change. Your failure to pay the assessments could result in a lien on and the foreclosure of your property.

Title 11 of the Property Code deals with Restrictive covenants

PROPERTY CODE
TITLE 11. RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS
CHAPTER 204. POWERS OF PROPERTY OWNERS' ASSOCIATION RELATING TO RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS IN CERTAIN SUBDIVISIONS

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PR/htm/PR.204.htm

The crux of the powers do not seem to be specifically spelled out, but seem to be rather clearly implied.

Sec. 204.010. POWERS OF PROPERTY OWNERS' ASSOCIATION.

(a) ... the property owners' association... may: (12) charge costs to an owner's assessment account and collect the costs in any manner provided in the restrictions for the collection of assessments; [emphasis mine-RG]
"any manner" here seems to include "nonjudicial foreclosure". This is not explicitly stated, but implied.

Further implication of this power is stated in the following section:
PROPERTY CODE
TITLE 11. RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS
CHAPTER 209. TEXAS RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY OWNERS PROTECTION ACT


Sec. 209.008. ATTORNEY'S FEES.(f) If the dedicatory instrument or restrictions of an association allow for nonjudicial foreclosure, the amount of attorney's fees that a property owners' association may include in a nonjudicial foreclosure sale for an indebtedness covered by a property owners' association's assessment lien is limited to...

The law does carry some limits to the covenants and powers though:

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PR/htm/PR.202.htm
Sec. 202.007. CERTAIN RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS PROHIBITED.

and

One actual protection built into Chapter 209 is that foreclosure is NOT allowed in the even of fines from an association.

There may be more to it, but that is what I could find.

[spursncowboys]

This is the actual problem here...

aha it's the evil corporations again.

[Wild Cobra]

What more do dumb people need if they aren't going to read and understand?

[ElNono]

aha it's the evil corporations again.

More like the evil politician prioritizing his pocket over his constituents.

[ElNono]

What more do dumb people need if they aren't going to read and understand?

How do you know that the HOA rule by which they had their house taken from them was there when they bought the house?

[Wild Cobra]

How do you know that the HOA rule by which they had their house taken from them was there when they bought the house?
I don't, but if the rules changes, you can be sure they were made aware of it. If they didn't sign a notice, or receive certified notification, there is a valid lawsuit.

Did you miss the parts where the wife didn't open the letters?

Sorry. I cannot be understanding to stupidity. I don't like the way these places operate, but they do have a legal right to get their payment.

What solution do you pose that insures these organizations get paid?

[boutons_deux]

"it's the evil corporations again."

yes, again, and again, and again. It's you're seeing the light.

[Blake]

get. The. Law. Changed.

+1

[Blake]

aha it's the evil corporations again.

in this case it is.

if you want to buy a new(er) house these days, you do not have a choice but to be part of the HOA and pay annual dues.

some HOAs are decent and do what they are meant to do, which at the base is to help protect home owners, properties and their values.

Simply seizing a house and selling it for pennies on the dollar does nothing to do that, imo. All it does it get the HOA it's money.....and what exactly is it that HOAs do for our dollars?

These fucking reps from corporations like Associa do nothing with real home issues such as dilapidated structures or trashy properties as far as I can tell.....
They simply play middle man and forward the complaints to the cities code compliance officers and let the city do the enforcment.

99% of all the HOAs out there are worthless money grabbers, imo.

Not a whole lot of things really piss me off, but involuntary HOAs absolutely do.

[baseline bum]

In Wild Cobra's dystopian fantasy world, there's no FDA, so there's formaldehyde in people's milk and shit spilled in their beef. There's no EPA, so there's lead in our gasoline and paint, every city's air looks like 1988 Los Angeles, and every body of water is turned into the Cuyahoga.

[Wild Cobra]

In Wild Cobra's dystopian fantasy world, there's no FDA, so there's formaldehyde in people's milk and shit spilled in their beef. There's no EPA, so there's lead in our gasoline and paint, every city's air looks like 1988 Los Angeles, and every body of water is turned into the Cuyahoga.
You really suck at being a mind reader. I suggest you stick with your day job.

[Phenomanul]

I don't, but if the rules changes, you can be sure they were made aware of it. If they didn't sign a notice, or receive certified notification, there is a valid lawsuit.

Did you miss the parts where the wife didn't open the letters?

Sorry. I cannot be understanding to stupidity. I don't like the way these places operate, but they do have a legal right to get their payment.

What solution do you pose that insures these organizations get paid?

$300,000 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> $800

There's no other word for this other than douchebaggery theft...

[Wild Cobra]

$300,000 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> $800

There's no other word for this other than douchebaggery theft...
No Shit Sherlock.

There is right and wrong, and then there is the law.

Like some said, if you don't like it, get it changed. People steal from me because it's legal. There are allot of unfair things in life. Get over it.

[Phenomanul]

No Shit Sherlock.

There is right and wrong, and then there is the law.

Like some said, if you don't like it, get it changed. People steal from me because it's legal. There are allot of unfair things in life. Get over it.

So it's settled then... HOA's like this one are sanctioned to steal...

I mean, you said so yourself.... I'm only stating the obvious...

Don't get all defensive on me now... :lol (I normally side with you on many issues... I refuse to stand behind this one in any way form or fashion...)

[Stringer_Bell]

I don't, but if the rules changes, you can be sure they were made aware of it. If they didn't sign a notice, or receive certified notification, there is a valid lawsuit.

Did you miss the parts where the wife didn't open the letters?

Sorry. I cannot be understanding to stupidity. I don't like the way these places operate, but they do have a legal right to get their payment.

What solution do you pose that insures these organizations get paid?

Those organizations don't do shit but collect money. Why haven't you responded to any of my posts about this? I'm not assuming you don't have a reply, in fact I think you agree with them. It's bullshit and should never be allowed to have been a law in the first place but too many useless assholes get rich off of it to get it changed...just like useless assholes get rich off of taking advantage of welfare and government programs.

[Spurminator]

Failing to open and read mail is not sufficient cause for having your home seized and sold. If the HOA wasn't getting through with the mail, the next step should be to call or pay a personal visit. The next step after that should be to go to court.

The lack of legislative oversight for this sort of thing ENCOURAGES HOAs to avoid doing whatever they can to collect dues, because the reward is greater if they seize and resell.

[elbamba]

What more do dumb people need if they aren't going to read and understand?

smart people ignore contracts all the time. I am sure you have not taken the time to read the mandatory legal language on half the websites that requires you to check the box before you can access the site.

[elbamba]

Failing to open and read mail is not sufficient cause for having your home seized and sold. If the HOA wasn't getting through with the mail, the next step should be to call or pay a personal visit. The next step after that should be to go to court.

The lack of legislative oversight for this sort of thing ENCOURAGES HOAs to avoid doing whatever they can to collect dues, because the reward is greater if they seize and resell.

Posting a foreclosure warning on the front door is an easy process and is more likely to be read. It would make sense in this case.

[boutons_deux]

"reward is greater if they seize and resell."

Only if they resell at market price, rather than resell to some scumbag lawyer to recover only their unpaid dues. I figure HOA pays not far from $3000 in fees to its lawyer and court costs.

Of course, if the buyer IS the HOA's lawyer, then ... :)

[Wild Cobra]

So it's settled then... HOA's like this one are sanctioned to steal...

I mean, you said so yourself.... I'm only stating the obvious...

Don't get all defensive on me now... :lol (I normally side with you on many issues... I refuse to stand behind this one in any way form or fashion...)
Why should I get defensive about that? Just because I hate to see layer after layer of laws, doesn't mean I think they have a moral right to act as they do.

Really now... If we keep adding laws to protect people from their own stupidity, when does it end? there is ample stupidity out there to endlessly write new laws.

[RandomGuy]

I don't understand why his house wasn't protected by the homestead law.

It isn't protected, because the HOA laws circumvent this process by allowing for a contract term that allows for seizure.

You essentially, by dint of moving in to the neighborhood, sign a contract that allows the association to seize your house without going to trial, i.e. "non-judicial foreclosure".

Since there is no trial, there is no homestead protection. You gave up your right to trial by agreeing to the restrictive covenant.

The force of law stands behind this "restrictive convenant".

All the more motivation to carefully read contracts. I am lucky enough to have a job that allows me to do so on a regular basis, and some formal education in business law, so I have gotten good at finding laws and knowing what terms mean what, but for the average joe it isn't so easy.

[RandomGuy]

Why should I get defensive about that? Just because I hate to see layer after layer of laws, doesn't mean I think they have a moral right to act as they do.

Really now... If we keep adding laws to protect people from their own stupidity, when does it end? there is ample stupidity out there to endlessly write new laws.

That is a good question.

Why is murder illegal?

[Wild Cobra]

Those organizations don't do shit but collect money.
Some people like the control the impose over the community. Myself, I also think they are a waste.

Why haven't you responded to any of my posts about this?
I don't remember. I'd have to go back and look. Not up to that now. I often run short of time, so i just respond to some.

It's bullshit and should never be allowed to have been a law in the first place but too many useless assholes get rich off of it to get it changed...just like useless assholes get rich off of taking advantage of welfare and government programs.

I agree. However, do do away with such contracts, you would have to impose of our constitutional freedom of association. I simply choose not to associate with such stuck up people, wanting to impose their values. The community has the right to impose this up[on themselves. Do you propose limiting their freedoms as US citizens?

I agree, what happened is appalling. The simple fact is, we have to take our freedoms, warts and all.

[ElNono]

I don't, but if the rules changes, you can be sure they were made aware of it.

And you know this because?


If they didn't sign a notice, or receive certified notification, there is a valid lawsuit.

Well, they did sue.


Did you miss the parts where the wife didn't open the letters?

I didn't. That doesn't mean that the penalty fits the crime.


Sorry. I cannot be understanding to stupidity. I don't like the way these places operate, but they do have a legal right to get their payment.

There's many ways to force payment without having to outright swindle the house from the homeowner. At the very minimum, a judge should at least verify that the HOA claim is proper.


What solution do you pose that insures these organizations get paid?

Here's a proposal I could live with that elbamba posted earlier. You never answered to it:


I'll tell you how I would draft the law governing a HOA taking a judgment against a homeowner.

1. If a HO does fails to pay monthly dues for 3 consecutive months, an action can be brough in the circuit court.

2. Notice must be given to the HO that an action for recovery of fees has been brought against them.

3. HO shall have the opportunity to pay the fees in full plus the costs of filing the petition (no atty fees).

4. If HO is unable to pay, judgment will be granted in favor of the HOA

5. Judgment in a civil court shall constitute a lien upon the real property

6. Under the HOA Act, HOA cannot petition for a writ to sale real property until the lien has been in effect for one year.

7. If at the end of one year, if the dues have not been paid in full for each and every month, HOA can petition the court for writ to sale the real property of HO.

8. HO has until the date of sale to pay in full, all liens and court costs.

9. Atty fees will not be awarded for any portion of this action.

10. Any provision of the HOA contract that a judge rules to be invalid may invalidate the contract in its entirety.

How is that. Everyone can be happy.

[Wild Cobra]

smart people ignore contracts all the time. I am sure you have not taken the time to read the mandatory legal language on half the websites that requires you to check the box before you can access the site.
I visit so few websites with such items.

You might be always clicking the box that says "Yes I'm 18 or older," but I don't go to those places. If a site needs information of which i then have to give permission... I rarely use that site. The internet is not secure.

[ElNono]

Really now... If we keep adding laws to protect people from their own stupidity, when does it end? there is ample stupidity out there to endlessly write new laws.

So you think laws against fraud basically protect people from their own stupidity, they should be abolished, and basically strip those swindled from any recourse in a court of law?

[Wild Cobra]

Failing to open and read mail is not sufficient cause for having your home seized and sold. If the HOA wasn't getting through with the mail, the next step should be to call or pay a personal visit. The next step after that should be to go to court.
Maybe they did have a visit. Doesn't matter, a contract was signed. people do unethical things all the time. It's obvious very few here are angels. I'm sure many here would scam someone out of property if they could.

[v2freak]

That situation is so fucked up. Fuck the HOA

[Wild Cobra]

So you think laws against fraud basically protect people from their own stupidity, they should be abolished, and basically strip those swindled from any recourse in a court of law?
This isn't fraud.

[ElNono]

Maybe they did have a visit. Doesn't matter, a contract was signed. people do unethical things all the time. It's obvious very few here are angels. I'm sure many here would scam someone out of property if they could.

But they don't because there are consequences for doing that. Written in law.
If those laws were not written, would those scams all of a sudden be 'legitimate ventures'?

[ElNono]

This isn't fraud.

Only because it's not codified in law as such.

[Wild Cobra]

Only because it's not codified in law as such.
To commit fraud, you purposely mislead people. the Covenants, Conditions, and Restrictions (CC&Rs) are readily available. They spell out such possible actions. When you buy, you agree to such terms and conditions.

[Spurminator]

Maybe they did have a visit. Doesn't matter, a contract was signed. people do unethical things all the time.

You are a horrible person.


It's obvious very few here are angels. I'm sure many here would scam someone out of property if they could.

You have a very low opinion of the average human which is probably derived from your own lack of humanity.

[Wild Cobra]

You are a horrible person.

Why? Because I will not agree to circumventing the law?

They didn't have to buy this house. They should have paid the dues.

They violated the contract.

Yes, I think the penalty was extreme, but I wasn't the stupid imbecile that signed the contract.

Next, you guys will want to give back money to those who lose in stock ventures.

Wait... That's what the bank bailouts did!

[Wild Cobra]

You have a very low opinion of the average human which is probably derived from your own lack of humanity.
No, those of you who think people need to be protected from their own stupidity are the ones seeing others as dumb.

[ElNono]

To commit fraud, you purposely mislead people. the Covenants, Conditions, and Restrictions (CC&Rs) are readily available. They spell out such possible actions. When you buy, you agree to such terms and conditions.

Those conditions are not static and indeed change after you purchase the house.

Besides, nobody here is claiming that they did comply with the HOA rules.

What is a fraud is allowing HOAs to simply put a lien on a house and sell it without providing any recourse in front of an impartial entity/person.
Because it's spelled out in a contract and signed, doesn't automatically mean it's a valid contract. Do you know what a unconscionable contract is?

[ElNono]

Next thing we know, WC will be justifying death by lethal injection for a parking violation... because, you know, they didn't need to park there!

[baseline bum]

You have a very low opinion of the average human which is probably derived from your own lack of humanity.

You're talking to the person who said he'd personally go shoot people at the border if it was legal.



I am flat out fed up. Yes, if they will not do these other things, then I say shoot them as they cross. I would go and take my rifle if it was legal to shoot them.

[Spurminator]

Next thing we know, WC will be justifying death by lethal injection for a parking violation... because, you know, they didn't need to park there!

It was in the fine print on the sign at the corner! You should have read it before you parked! Imbecile!

[Blake]

I am flat out fed up. Yes, if they will not do these other things, then I say shoot them as they cross. I would go and take my rifle if it was legal to shoot them.


...further entrenching my position on gun control laws

[RandomGuy]

Why? Because I will not agree to circumventing the law?

They didn't have to buy this house. They should have paid the dues.

They violated the contract.

Yes, I think the penalty was extreme, but I wasn't the stupid imbecile that signed the contract.

Next, you guys will want to give back money to those who lose in stock ventures.

Wait... That's what the bank bailouts did!

You say all of that as if the line between fraud and not fraud is always perfectly clear and 100% black or white.

Is it?

[TeyshaBlue]

You say all of that as if the line between fraud and not fraud is always perfectly clear and 100% black or white.

Is it?

Goldman Sachs sure hopes not.

[Winehole23]

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1038/1259399352_4a43cff4b4.jpg

[EmptyMan]

Army should predator drone the next HOA meeting.

[elbamba]

I visit so few websites with such items.

You might be always clicking the box that says "Yes I'm 18 or older," but I don't go to those places. If a site needs information of which i then have to give permission... I rarely use that site. The internet is not secure.

So you have never used Ebay, Amazon, Overstock, Google, Yahoo? You have never banked on-line, paid a bill on-line? You have never reserved a room at a hotel, rented a vehicle, purchased a plane ticket? I can assure you that 99% of the sites you visit have a terms and conditions page that binds you everytime you use it.

I suppose you read through your phone contract before you purchased your cell phone. I am sure you read through all 500 pages of your mortgage. I am sure you are familiar with all of the terms and conditions of the utility companies you use, as well as the applicable statutes that govern these entities.

If we could all be as perfect as you I would be out of a job. However, after 25+ years, I can tell you that smart people usually make mistakes but people who preach like you do either have nothing to lose or are just full of crap. I think either is a possibility in your case.

[SnakeBoy]

I think either is a possibility in your case.

No he's full of crap.

[LnGrrrR]

What more do dumb people need if they aren't going to read and understand?

Again WC, do you have an iPhone? Something similar? If so, did you read the 64 page or so contract acceptance?

[LnGrrrR]

Next thing we know, WC will be justifying death by lethal injection for a parking violation... because, you know, they didn't need to park there!

There was a law passed stating it! If people don't know the law, that's THEIR FAULT! IT'S THE LAW!

[Wild Cobra]

Do you know what a unconscionable contract is?
Well councilor, you can try arguing that in this case, but I think you'll lose in this case. especially since they didn't sell the house for value. Just enough to cover the money owed, and acceptable fees.

[Wild Cobra]

Next thing we know, WC will be justifying death by lethal injection for a parking violation... because, you know, they didn't need to park there!
You must have watched a "Charmed" re-run.

[RandomGuy]

Well councilor, you can try arguing that in this case, but I think you'll lose in this case. especially since they didn't sell the house for value. Just enough to cover the money owed, and acceptable fees.

Estoppel

[TeyshaBlue]

Estoppel

Quite possible. Intriguing.

[Wild Cobra]

...further entrenching my position on gun control laws
My statement has no bearing on gun control laws. If guns were banned and somehow magically eliminated, we would use bows and arrows.

[RandomGuy]

[Estoppel is quite] possible. Intriguing.

Indeed. (listens for the sound of Wild Cobra doing a google search on the term...) :lol

[Wild Cobra]

You say all of that as if the line between fraud and not fraud is always perfectly clear and 100% black or white.

Is it?
No, it's not always clear. You should know me better than that by now.

I don't like at all the rules some of these places have. I'm not really against making some laws protecting people better either. I simply don't want to see any such laws made by the current people in power. Always adding their idea of utopia to things. Even at that, you have to be careful not to infringe on free association, and what is agreed between parties. The best way to kill these activities is to expose them. Make it so nobody wants to buy into them. The free market does wonders when you apply it properly.

[FalleNxWiZarDx]

man this story is soooo messed up....


is there any updates on this story???

[RandomGuy]

No, it's not always clear. You should know me better than that by now.

I don't like at all the rules some of these places have. I'm not really against making some laws protecting people better either. I simply don't want to see any such laws made by the current people in power. Always adding their idea of utopia to things. Even at that, you have to be careful not to infringe on free association, and what is agreed between parties. The best way to kill these activities is to expose them. Make it so nobody wants to buy into them. The free market does wonders when you apply it properly.

It is possible to read a complex contract, think you know what it says and still be surprised about what the operative effects of a particular clause actually are?

[Wild Cobra]

It is possible to read a complex contract, think you know what it says and still be surprised about what the operative effects of a particular clause actually are?
That's why you get a real estate lawyer anytime you buy a house. there are too many other things not to be left to chance.

[RandomGuy]

That's why you get a real estate lawyer anytime you buy a house. there are too many other things not to be left to chance.

My question was a bit more general, and was about contracts overall, not just the restrictive covenants.

Does that mean I should vet any lengthy contract I sign past a lawyer as well?

[Wild Cobra]

My question was a bit more general, and was about contracts overall, not just the restrictive covenants.

Does that mean I should vet any lengthy contract I sign past a lawyer as well?
If you don't fully understand it, then yes.

[Blake]

My statement has no bearing on gun control laws. If guns were banned and somehow manically eliminated, we would use bows and arrows.

my stance in this instance is that we need to keep idiots like you from having weapons in public.

[RandomGuy]

If you don't fully understand it, then yes.

What if it were worded in such a way as to make you think you understand it, but the actual meaning and application in law was different?

I don't think that it is feasible or possible to involve lawyers in EVERY instance where there is a long contract involved.

That would seem to add a lot of cost/inefficiency to the system.

[Wild Cobra]

What if it were worded in such a way as to make you think you understand it, but the actual meaning and application in law was different?

I don't think that it is feasible or possible to involve lawyers in EVERY instance where there is a long contract involved.

That would seem to add a lot of cost/inefficiency to the system.
I agree it isn't worth involving a lawyer for maybe the new car contract. however, a $200,000 house or more definitely warrants paying a lawyer three digits.

[boutons_deux]

"seem to add a lot of cost/inefficiency to the system."

... which is exactly the goal. Complexity leads to opacity leads to lack of information leads to "we gotcha now". Lawyers make shit super complicated, like laws, contracts, etc, to promote their own $$involvement, while rigging the game in favor of their employer.

eg, the $250B/year "wasted" on processing over-complicated medical claims ends up the pockets of the complicators.

[elbamba]

You are looking at 5000K to hire an attorney to proofread a mortgage agreement together with all contracts and agreements associated with purchasing a new property.

[Blake]

I agree it isn't worth involving a lawyer for maybe the new car contract. however, a $200,000 house or more definitely warrants paying a lawyer three digits.

Buying a house is a pretty common thing. Any real estate agent worth a damn should be able to tell you the basics of the neighborhood requirements.

What is a lawyer going to tell you before you sign that contract that warrants a 3 digit price tag?

[Winehole23]

Four digits, then.

[Blake]

You are looking at 5000K to hire an attorney to proofread a mortgage agreement together with all contracts and agreements associated with purchasing a new property.

5000k is a lot. :lol

and then what is the attorney going to tell you that will end up saving you from spending that much later on?

"be sure to pay your HOA dues and ask permission before putting on an adition to your back patio or else they will get mad and fine you. If you don't pay, they will seize and sell your house. That will be $5k please."

[Wild Cobra]

You are looking at 5000K to hire an attorney to proofread a mortgage agreement together with all contracts and agreements associated with purchasing a new property.
It doesn't cost $5k. If you can't keep it real, go away please.

[Wild Cobra]

Buying a house is a pretty common thing. Any real estate agent worth a damn should be able to tell you the basics of the neighborhood requirements.

What is a lawyer going to tell you before you sign that contract that warrants a 3 digit price tag?
The real estate agent normally works for the seller. You think they will be forthcoming on everything?

[Blake]

The real estate agent normally works for the seller. You think they will be forthcoming on everything?

from what I understand, if you get your own agent to find a house, the seller's agent generally splits the commission with the buyer's agent.

The real estate agent we had when we bought the current house we live in pointed out to make sure that the pool equipment stay with the house as part of the contract. Something like that hadn't occurred to me and it turned out to save us a few hundred had the previous owner taken off with the stuff.

Not so sure a lawyer would have thought of that.

[Wild Cobra]

from what I understand, if you get your own agent to find a house, the seller's agent generally splits the commission with the buyer's agent.

The real estate agent we had when we bought the current house we live in pointed out to make sure that the pool equipment stay with the house as part of the contract. Something like that hadn't occurred to me and it turned out to save us a few hundred had the previous owner taken off with the stuff.

Not so sure a lawyer would have thought of that.
Either way, you agree an expert opinion can be invaluable, right?

[Blake]

Either way, you agree an expert opinion can be invaluable, right?

who wouldn't agree with that blanket statement/question?


What is a lawyer going to tell you before you sign that contract that warrants a 3 digit price tag?

[LnGrrrR]

If you don't fully understand it, then yes.

So do you have a cell phone WC? An iPhone or Droid?

[elbamba]

5000k is a lot. :lol

and then what is the attorney going to tell you that will end up saving you from spending that much later on?

"be sure to pay your HOA dues and ask permission before putting on an adition to your back patio or else they will get mad and fine you. If you don't pay, they will seize and sell your house. That will be $5k please."

Its expensive to have a lawyer read through long contracts. Most mortgages come in large stacks of paper. If you hire an attorney to read one, and the attorney is worth a damn this is what you are looking at. I usually tell my clients to use the agent. I will only get involved if there are no real estate agents and I am drafting some contract for deed. Much cheaper.

[elbamba]

It doesn't cost $5k. If you can't keep it real, go away please.

Go retain a lawyer to review a contract and you can see how real I am. maybe you can find a charitable one that will do if for less but you might retain someone who doesn't actually read the document.

[Wild Cobra]

So do you have a cell phone WC? An iPhone or Droid?
I have the Behold II, which uses the Android operating system.

Why?

There are legal notices if you want to use some of the online features. I simply don't add any because of the added costs. I use the GPS sometimes, but really don't use anything else.

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol bankruptcy law is lame

u can always file a debtors/creditors petition as long they owe you the amount thats stated by law to bring forward process such documents to the courts and get a ruling...

even the banks do this shit, then again their are lapses in the bankruptcy law consumers dont know about that also protects them also, but none of this is ever mention when consulting for a loan with ur bank.

[scott]

Classic thread.

[LnGrrrR]

I have the Behold II, which uses the Android operating system.

Why?

There are legal notices if you want to use some of the online features. I simply don't add any because of the added costs. I use the GPS sometimes, but really don't use anything else.

Did you read over the entire contract when you signed for the phone?

[LnGrrrR]

I have the Behold II, which uses the Android operating system.

Why?

There are legal notices if you want to use some of the online features. I simply don't add any because of the added costs. I use the GPS sometimes, but really don't use anything else.

http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/phones/Cell-Phone-Detail.aspx?cell-phone=Samsung-Behold-2



Samsung Behold® II

With the Samsung Behold II, powered by Android, you will experience the freedom of web and also show off your fashionable lifestyle by its cool design and powerful multi-media functions. Behold II, the ultimate web and multi-media at your fingertips! A data service is required with this phone.



Did you read the entire acceptance document for the data plan?

[ploto]

The interesting thing- if I understand correctly- and hopefully FWD will correct me if I am wrong: When a HOA puts a lien against a house, it is secondary to the lien of a fianancial institution. They can not foreclose on the house that is not owned outright by the homeowner. They could only do this because the guy owned his house free and clear.

[Stringer_Bell]

The interesting thing- if I understand correctly- and hopefully FWD will correct me if I am wrong: When a HOA puts a lien against a house, it is secondary to the lien of a fianancial institution. They can not foreclose on the house that is not owned outright by the homeowner. They could only do this because the guy owned his house free and clear.

Are you suggesting some sort of conspiracy? Such as, they knew his house was owned and paid for totally, so they wanted to take it when they realized how easy it was? I'm sure the HOA is just a legit entity attempting to get they deserve from the homeowner that is operating fully within the law (which is based off logic and common sense, so it can't be wrong and lawmakers have no incentive to change it), it just so happened they could take it his house and get a nice deal out of it...c'mon WC, back me up!

[LnGrrrR]

Still waiting to see if WC read both the entire terms of use in the contract for the phone service and the data plan.

[Wild Cobra]

Still waiting to see if WC read both the entire terms of use in the contract for the phone service and the data plan.
No, I didn't read it entirely, but knew what to expect. Besides, I was referring to large purchases like a house.

You can get a data phone without a data package. I did that with the phone I had before this one. Liked the phone but didn't need any of the rest. The only data features I use on this phone is the GPS, and sometimes YouTube. I don't worry about charges.

A data service is required with this phone.
Only to utilize the features added with the Android system.

[LnGrrrR]

No, I didn't read it entirely, but knew what to expect. Besides, I was referring to large purchases like a house.

So if the contract said something in the middle of it, like, "User agrees to purchase a Ferrari for whichever customer representative sells them this phone", would that be an example of an illegal contract, or would that be a case of you being dumb by not reading the entire contract but signing it anyways?


You can get a data phone without a data package. I did that with the phone I had before this one. Liked the phone but didn't need any of the rest. The only data features I use on this phone is the GPS, and sometimes YouTube. I don't worry about charges.

Only to utilize the features added with the Android system.

You have to get it whether you use the features or not.

[Wild Cobra]

So if the contract said something in the middle of it, like, "User agrees to purchase a Ferrari for whichever customer representative sells them this phone", would that be an example of an illegal contract, or would that be a case of you being dumb by not reading the entire contract but signing it anyways?

That's a real stretch, and you know it.

I'm more offended at changes that the regulators allow without requiring customer notification. Charges can be assigned to cell phones, and it's been like this a few years now. I first got a cell phone last century. They didn't have such chargeable features back then. I had a few times I had charges on my daughters phone for online games. She had to enter her cell number to get a password to play, all along not knowing this was to charge $9.99 to the phone number. I always had the services reversed when i asked them how can they expect me to keep my service if they are going to allow such financial solicitation to minors. In the end, I blocked all such user privileges on that line. Not because the phone company didn't cooperate with me. They did. It's just my daughter made me contact them one too many times, so I cut her off from that responsibility, and nice things like ring-tones.

[Wild Cobra]

You have to get it whether you use the features or not.
No you don't, at least not with T-Mobile. You just have to pay more for the phone, because the phone is actually rather expensive. The phone costs less because they expect to get the money back with the data service.

I did have to pay more for my first data phone for that reason.

[Blake]

They can not foreclose on the house that is not owned outright by the homeowner. They could only do this because the guy owned his house free and clear.

right, because the banks flex their muscles against HOAs in situations like this if there is a still a note out on it.

[LnGrrrR]

No you don't, at least not with T-Mobile. You just have to pay more for the phone, because the phone is actually rather expensive. The phone costs less because they expect to get the money back with the data service.

I did have to pay more for my first data phone for that reason.

How comes it says "A data service is required for this phone" then? Seems misleading if you could purchase the phone outright and avoid the data plan.

[LnGrrrR]

That's a real stretch, and you know it.

Of course. I'm using it as an example that just because someone signs to a clause in a contract, doesn't ipso facto make it legally binding. It also made my point that sometimes clauses are hidden in contracts, and people who don't read the entire contracts aren't "dumbasses".

They are probably bound by this contract, but if the contract is shown to be invalid for one reason or another (I'm not a lawyer, don't know how that would work), then they should be able to get their house back. ANd I believe most posters are complaining not just about THIS situation, but a law that allows this situation to occur.


I'm more offended at changes that the regulators allow without requiring customer notification. Charges can be assigned to cell phones, and it's been like this a few years now. I first got a cell phone last century. They didn't have such chargeable features back then. I had a few times I had charges on my daughters phone for online games. She had to enter her cell number to get a password to play, all along not knowing this was to charge $9.99 to the phone number. I always had the services reversed when i asked them how can they expect me to keep my service if they are going to allow such financial solicitation to minors. In the end, I blocked all such user privileges on that line. Not because the phone company didn't cooperate with me. They did. It's just my daughter made me contact them one too many times, so I cut her off from that responsibility, and nice things like ring-tones.

Agreed that "These terms and conditions may change" clause is pretty bs.

[RandomGuy]

Since it is vaguely relevant to vy.

Someone asked for an update... i'll try to find one

[RandomGuy]

A few folks have been asking me on Twitter, so I figured MoJo readers were owed an update on Michael Clauer, the Texas soldier who lost his $300,000 home over an $800 debt while he was serving in Iraq.

When I wrote about the Clauers' plight in May, it hadn't yet received any national attention. But reader response was swift. The article garnered over 650 comments on MotherJones.com, plus thousands more on Huffington Post and other sites that linked to our investigation. Fortunately, this story has a happy ending. [Read the original story here.]

I exchanged emails with the Clauers' lawyer, Barbara Hale, earlier this month, and she told me the case has been resolved. As of now, it looks like Michael, his wife May, and their two children will get their home back. The financial terms of the settlement are confidential.

The Clauers were saved by a law called the Servicemembers Civil Relief Act, which essentially forbids foreclosing on active-duty troops. If Michael hadn't been on active duty, the Clauers might not have had any legal recourse. Of course, they really shouldn't have had to deal with lawyers in the first place. Whatever happened to being neighborly? Here's an excerpt from the original story:

Michael went on active duty in February 2008 and was sent to Iraq. After he shipped out, his wife May slipped into a deep depression, according to court documents. "A lot of people say that the deployment is more stressful on the spouse than the actual person who's being deployed," Michael, 37, says in an interview with Mother Jones. May Clauer had two kids to take care of—a ten-year-old and a one-year-old with a serious seizure-related disorder. In addition, she was worried sick about her husband. Michael's company was doing convoy security in Iraq—an extremely dangerous job. "It was a pretty tough year for the whole company," he says. "We had IEDs, rocket attacks and mortar attacks, and a few soldiers that were hurt pretty bad and had to be airlifted back to the States."

Seeking to avoid hearing about the situation in Iraq, May stopped watching the news. She rarely answered the door, and Michael says he couldn't tell her when he went "outside the wire"—off-base. May also stopped opening the mail. "I guess she was scared that she would hear bad news," says Michael. That was why she missed multiple notices from the Heritage Lakes Homeowners Association informing her that the family owed $800 in dues—and then subsequent notices stating that the HOA was preparing to foreclose on the debt and seize the home.... In May 2008, the HOA sold the Clauers' home for a pittance—$3,500—although its appraisal value was $300,000, according to court documents. The buyer then resold the house to a third person. (Select Management Co., the company that manages Heritage Lakes, declined to comment for this story.)

...At no point did anyone from the HOA—which is, after all, composed of the Clauers' neighbors—appear to have tried to visit May Clauer's house to talk to her about the problem. "The HOA board members...don't live very far from me at all," Michael Clauer says. There were "neighbors owing much more than us [who] were notified in person of pending foreclosures, but my wife only received a few letters." David Schechter of the Dallas/Fort Worth television station WFAA, which first reported this story, notes that the "Clauers' HOA says homeowners are free to call them, but they do not call or visit homeowners when there's a problem. They're only required to send a certified letter."

If folks from the homeowners association had bothered to knock on May Clauer's door, they might have avoided all this—the legal fees, the negative press attention, and the (surely large) settlement costs. But they didn't, and they paid the price. Fred Rogers would be ashamed.

Here's an interesting postscript: When I asked whether the homeowners association that foreclosed on Clauer admitted wrongdoing, Hale emailed back "Heck No!" Homeowners associations have enormous power. In 33 states, they can foreclose without a court order over a few hundred dollars in unpaid dues. The process in Texas is especially quick—just 27 days. Texas HOAs have been bedeviled by allegations that they are taking advantage of the law. Some have even been accused of specifically targeting people who own their homes free and clear—like the Clauers did—so that they can flip the house and make a profit. Until the laws are reformed so that it's harder to take people's homes over a few hundred bucks, you're going to keep seeing these sorts of stories. At least this one had a happy ending.

This post has been extended since it was first published.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2010/08/michael-clauer-update

[RandomGuy]

Guardsman who lost Frisco home to HOA foreclosure is leaving Texas .
http://www.wfaa.com/news/consumer/Guardsman-who-lost-Frisco-home-to-foreclosure-is-leaving-Texas-112686954.html
FAA
Posted on December 30, 2010 at 6:28 PM



The parties involved reached a confidential settlement. In August, the property was transferred back to the Clauers.

Clauer is taking an active-duty position with the Army in Virginia, but says he hopes to tell his story to lawmakers during the upcoming session of the Texas Legislature.

The Clauers' story has helped inspire the filing of three separate bills to curb the foreclosure powers of HOAs.

Wonder whatever happened to the bills

[angrydude]

I don't understand how this sort of thing isn't considered "unconscionable."

[Blake]

Wonder whatever happened to the bills


Among the defenders of the current system is State Sen. John Carona (R-Dallas). Carona is not only the author of many of the current HOA laws in Texas, some say he benefits most from it.

Carona owns Associa, the nation's largest property management company and the parent company of Principal Management Group, which manages Timber Creek Estates.

http://www.wfaa.com/news/investigates/State-Senator-defends-HOA--122680849.html

Carona is an evil man.

[RandomGuy]

Carona is an evil man.

Shocking.

I would think the stink of corruption runs pretty high in the Texas government.

The more one sniffs around the edges, the stinkier it gets.

No comment from our resident lawyer yet, I see.

[DMC]

This is a classic case of a soldier living outside his means. 800 a month for HOA dues is way over a captain's ability to pay. It's not uncommon to see soldiers live beyond their means and use the military status as an excuse to avoid foreclosure.

[DMC]

Wonder whatever happened to the bills
They went ignored, just like the utility and HOA bills. Bet the kids have Ipads and Iphones and wear designer clothes.

[DMC]

That's a real stretch, and you know it.

You have to think outside the box, keep an open mind.

[Blake]

They went ignored, just like the utility and HOA bills. Bet the kids have Ipads and Iphones and wear designer clothes.

Legislative bills, tbh

[Blake]

This is a classic case of a soldier living outside his means. 800 a month for HOA dues is way over a captain's ability to pay. It's not uncommon to see soldiers live beyond their means and use the military status as an excuse to avoid foreclosure.

I didn't reread it, but it was probably not $7400 a year for hoa dues.

[Wild Cobra]

I didn't reread it, but it was probably not $7400 a year for hoa dues.
Wasn't it $250/month?

[vy65]

I never defended HOAs, or their lobbies. All I've said was, in this particular instance, the HOAs foreclosure action was neither immoral nor evil because this woman was negligent and bears the fault. The fact that you and the cuck are too fucking retarded to understand that simple point isnt surprising.

[Blake]

I never defended HOAs, or their lobbies. All I've said was, in this particular instance, the HOAs foreclosure action was neither immoral nor evil because this woman was negligent and bears the fault. The fact that you and the cuck are too fucking retarded to understand that simple point isnt surprising.

Your point was clear to everyone from the start:

[It's a legal action, therefore it's moral action.]

You're beyond fucking retarded if you can't understand your simple point is a failure.

[Wild Cobra]

Your point was clear to everyone from the start:

[It's a legal action, therefore it's moral action.]

You're beyond fucking retarded if you can't understand your simple point is a failure.
My question is why weren't you there as an advocate for this obviously incompetent woman?

[Blake]

My question is why weren't you there as an advocate for this obviously incompetent woman?

what do you propose I should have done for her, ghandi?

[Wild Cobra]

what do you propose I should have done for her, ghandi?
Well, you are the one insisting that she was wronged. Where were you to keep it from happening? At some point, the legal process needs to happen. If not you, then who? How can you have the audacity to complain about something that nobody tried to stop?

[DMX7]

She must be good in the sack cuz she must be dumb as a box of rocks to have just ignored all the certified letters she would have gotten before the foreclosure could be official.

It was only 2 months worth of dues, so it couldn't have been that many letters.

[Blake]

Well, you are the one insisting that she was wronged. Where were you to keep it from happening? At some point, the legal process needs to happen. If not you, then who? How can you have the audacity to complain about something that nobody tried to stop?

it's not audacious at all to simply call this system of forced HOAs on home owners evil.

You're a fucking idiot.

[howbouthemspurs]

Fuck HOA!

[DMC]

They got their house back so it's a moot point.

[Blake]

They got their house back so it's a moot point.


.......Before now, associations rarely, if ever, foreclosed on homeowners. But today, encouraged by a new industry of lawyers and consultants, boards are increasingly foreclosing on people 60 days past due on association fees, says Evan McKenzie, a former homeowner association attorney who is now a University of Illinois political science professor and the author of the book "Beyond Privatopia: Rethinking Residential Private Government."

The government does not keep statistics on how often homeowners' associations initiate foreclosures. But a non-profit research group found that association-initiated foreclosures in the Houston area jumped from 500 in 1995 to 2,200 in 2007. Most association-related foreclosures in Texas do not go through the judicial process, so the group's analysis represented only a fraction of the foreclosures that housing associations have initiated.

The problems in some communities are resulting in more scrutiny. In Nevada, the FBI is investigating corruption in elections of association boards. In Utah and Arizona, legislators are trying to pass bills that would root out the use of debt-collectors who are alleged to have used thug-like tactics to strongarm residents into paying fees......

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/housing/2011-07-09-homeowner-foreclosure_n.htm

[Blake]

Sherman McCray is an 81 year old veteran of the Korean War who purchased a home in an Orlando living complex for his retirement. In 2010, Sherman failed to pay an assessment.

The reason? He had recently suffered a heart attack and his medical bills put a huge dent in his available funds.

After agreeing to a payment plan of a hundred dollars a month and continuing to pay his normal HOA fees, Sherman soon found what he owed started to grow. This was because the HOA tacked on automatic late fees, fines and attorney costs. Every time another letter was generated to Sherman from the HOA lawyer those fees were added onto his bill. Before long that single missed assessment grew to over $4,272. Unable to pay that amount, the HOA was within its right to set into motion foreclosure proceedings in order for it to collect its debt.

When news of Sherman’s plight got into the papers neighbors from the community rallied to his aid, raising enough money to help Sherman pay off the amount owed and avoid foreclosure. That is a happy ending indeed, but the issue of HOA enforcing so-called draconian laws is still very prevalent.

http://www.managementtrust.com/blog/bid/77347/How-would-your-board-handle-the-case-of-Sherman-McCray