Top 30 Spurs Small Forward Free Agent Targets

[timvp]

Yesterday morning, small forward wasn't an area of overwhelming concern for the Spurs. However, after Richard Jefferson shocked the known basketball universe by opting out of banking $15.2 million next season, the Spurs suddenly have a dilemma.

Who will be the starting small forward in San Antonio for the 2010-11 NBA season?

The odds-on favorite remains Richard Jefferson. Common sense says Jefferson couldn't have possibly walked away from that pile of cash without parameters of a new deal already in place. It's very possible that the Spurs convinced Jefferson to opt out and take a longer contract that features more guaranteed money. If that is the case, small forward isn't much a worry.

On the other hand, there are rumors that teams with cap space galore may be after Jefferson -- namely the New Jersey Nets and the New York Knicks. If the Nets or Knicks decide Jefferson is their man, the Spurs would likely initiate a sign-and-trade so that they could receive a trade exception. By doing so, the Spurs could use the trade exception to acquire Jefferson's replacement.

A third possibility is rather bleak: Jefferson leaving in free agency and the Spurs getting nothing in return. In such a scenario, the Spurs will have to hope for a breakout season from a young player such as Malik Hairston, Alonzo Gee or James Anderson. Signing another small forward would also become necessary.

What do the Spurs need from their small forward position?

Two main aspects: defense and three-point shooting. As is, the Spurs lack a quality perimeter defender. And, as we saw in the playoffs, outside shooting is now a glaring problem for this team. Anything else from a small forward is gravy.

Here's a breakdown of the top 30 small forward options in free agency -- listed from best fit to worst fit:

Top Shelf Targets
These small forward targets will require a trade exception or at least a portion of the MLE. (Considering that Tiago Splitter is projected to warrant the MLE, let's hope the MLE isn't available for a small forward. If it is, something went horribly wrong with the Splitter negotiations.)

1. Mike Miller
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3404.jpg
Mike Miller would be a fantastic fit as San Antonio's starting small forward. First of all, he's a great shooter -- last season, he hit more than half of his field goal attempts and 48% of his three-point attempts. He is also a very good passer and capable of handling the ball. Defensively, Miller isn't great but he competes, is a good help defender and rebounds at an amazing rate for his position. To top it off, Miller doesn't use many possessions so he'd be a seamless fit. All in all, Miller is easily the best small forward target in this free agent market.

2. Josh Childress
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3823.jpg
Although Josh Childress hasn't played in the NBA the last two seasons, he's still very much on every NBA team's radar. In his four seasons in the league, Childress shot 52.2% from the floor and 36% from deep. He's also a good defender, a quality rebounder and doesn't turn the ball over. Still only 26 years old, the only question with Childress would be his outside shot. Though his mechanics aren't pretty, he should be able to shoot straight enough in the Spurs system to keep defenses honest.

3. Wesley Matthews
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/4694.jpg
From undrafted to coveted free agent, Wesley Matthews is a great story. He stepped in for the Jazz last year and now appears to be a legit starting-caliber player. In less than 25 minutes per game, Matthews averaged 9.4 points and shot 48.3% from the field and 38.2% from beyond the arc. Defensively, Matthews was Utah's perimeter stopper. Despite only being 6-foot-5, Matthews' grit, guile and hustle make him a very good defender. Oh and it should be noted that Matthews was born in San Antonio and his dad played for the Spurs. That has to be worth something, right?

4. Kyle Korver
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3754.jpg
If the Spurs want shooting, it'd be difficult to find a better marksman than Kyle Korver. Last season, the 29-year-old set an NBA record by connecting on 53.6% of his three-pointers. On defense, Korver is underrated. In each of his three seasons in Utah, the Jazz allowed fewer points per possession when Korver was on the floor. He is willing to give up his body and his slow feet aren't too much of an issue as long as he's defending small forwards rather than shooting guards. The Spurs went after Korver in the past so it's definitely possible that he could be targeted again.

5. Anthony Morrow
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/4527.jpg
While Miller and Korver are outstanding shooters, Anthony Morrow might be the best shooter in the entire NBA. In his rookie season, Morrow knocked down 46.7% of his three-pointers. Last year, he proved it wasn't beginner's luck by shooting 45.6% on his long distance looks. The 24-year-old was undrafted out of Georgia Tech but he has consistently produced in both of his seasons, which makes him a reasonably safe target. That said, having played in Golden State, Morrow's defense is a question mark. There's also not much info regarding how he performs under pressure or how he meshes in a winning atmosphere. But then again, with the way he shoots, signing Morrow could very well be worth any perceived risks.

6. Travis Outlaw
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3726.jpg
Travis Outlaw oozes potential. The 25-year-old has the tools to be a top notch scorer and, by utilizing his long 6-foot-9 frame, a dominating defender. However, even though he's entering the eighth season of his career, Outlaw is still a work in progress. He has developed a good three-point shot and an unblockable midrange jumper -- but his inability to dribble or pass limits his effectiveness on that end. Defensively, Outlaw can block shots and rebound at a respectable rate -- but he's a below average man-to-man defender and a clueless team defender. He'd be a great project but I'm unconvinced he'd develop fast enough to be a difference-maker prior to San Antonio's window slamming shut.

7. Linas Kleiza
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Linas Kleiza played overseas last season after playing four seasons with the Nuggets. At 6-foot-8 and 245 pounds, Kleiza has the speed and bulk to play both forward positions. On the defensive end, he's nothing to write home to Lithuania about but he usually gives the effort and rebounds very well. Offensively, Kleiza shoots a lot of threes (at a decent rate) and has the ability to attack the rim off the dribble. Although he's not quite the shooter or defender the Spurs need at small forward, his overall package makes him a tempting option.

8. Josh Howard
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3732.jpg
There are a ton of red flags planted on Josh Howard. He suffered a torn ACL last season. He's had numerous off-the-court issues. His outside shooting has gotten progressively worse. He'll be 31-years-old by playoff time. He's not exactly the most dedicated teammate. All that said, Howard's stock is so low right now that he'd likely be a worthwhile buy-low target. A re-dedicated Howard would fit on the Spurs -- especially at a discounted price.

9. Ronnie Brewer
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/4142.jpg
In theory, Ronnie Brewer seems like a decent option. But looking closer, he's likely to be overrated this summer. Brewer is a good defender -- but more in terms of playing the passing lanes rather than playing stout individual defense. He scores at a decent rate but he doesn't have three-point range. And strangely, his production has steadily gotten worse since peaking early in his second season in the NBA. I don't believe he'll be worth his asking price, especially for the Spurs.

10. Ryan Gomes
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3976.jpg
Ryan Gomes is another player who, like Brewer, looks good on paper but wouldn't fit San Antonio's mold. Offensively, he can play both forward positions and shoot it well from deep -- but he can't dribble or pass. On the other end, Gomes is too slow to defend small forwards and too small to defend power forwards. I'd look elsewhere.

LLE Possibilities
If Richard Jefferson walks and Tiago Splitter is signed with the MLE, the Spurs would be left standing with the LLE as their only means of wooing a free agent small forward. (The LLE has a value of $2.08 million for the 2010-11 NBA season.) Even if Jefferson returns, the Spurs may still use their LLE to strengthen their swingman depth.

11. Matt Barnes
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3643.jpg
Matt Barnes has long been a target for the Spurs. Last summer, Barnes said the Spurs were one of the teams that made a strong push for him. We could see a repeat this summer. At 6-foot-7 with long arms, Barnes has good size for the small forward position and plays above average defense. He's also an excellent rebounder and can even buy minutes at power forward. Offensively, he's an extremely streaky three-point shooter -- which would be of concern to the Spurs. The rest of his offensive game is crafty yet unspectacular. For the LLE, the Spurs really couldn't do much better.

12. Dorell Wright
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3836.jpg
Dorell Wright is a very interesting option. The Spurs actually tried to trade up and acquire him in the 2004 NBA Draft. It wasn't until last season that Wright really started blossoming as a player. He can now shoot three-pointers (38.9% last year) and his feel for the game is much improved. Defensively, he uses his length (6-foot-9) and athleticism well. At 24, Wright still has a lot of time to continue to improve. The issues? Wright has an increasingly bad rep as an immature player off the court that includes a recent brush with the law. If the Spurs were to sign Wright, they'd have to overlook his questionable character.

13. Rasual Butler
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3650.jpg
Though not an exciting target, Rasual Butler would likely get the job done. He can defend and shoots threes at a decent 36.3% clip for his career. Butler does virtually nothing else but since those are the two characteristics the Spurs need out of their small forward position, the 31-year-old out of La Salle makes sense on a small scale.

14. Tony Allen
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3842.jpg
When it comes to defense, there's not a player on this list better out on the perimeter than Tony Allen. He's definitely a lockdown one-on-one defender. His offense, though, really makes it questionable whether he could fit on the Spurs. He has no outside jumper to speak of and his shot selection is very iffy. He rebounds well, handles the ball well, can pass ... but his shooting (or lack of) just can't be ignored.

15. Pete Mickeal
http://www.acb.com/fotos_cara/jugadores/JB8ILACB54.jpg
It's rare to look to Europe for a veteran small forward defender -- but that exactly describes Pete Michael. Over the years, Mickael has gained the reputation of a top flight defender whose outside shot and overall offensive repertoire is steadily improving. He's 32 years old and has never played in an NBA game so there would definitely be some risk, but it may be better to gamble on him than to go with a retread.

16. Quentin Richardson
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3417.jpg
Quentin Richardson hit a lull in his career but last season was his best season in a long time. He hit a career-high 39.7% of his three-point attempts and his shot selection was much improved. After getting back into good shape, his defense went from horrible to average. Richardson's two main flaws are his lack of footspeed on defense and his chucker-like ways on offense. Both areas improved last season but he's still someone who probably wouldn't fit quite right.

17. James Jones
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3752.jpg
After a quality 2007-08 season in Portland, James Jones has fallen off the map following his two injury-plagued in Miami. Jones main quality is his shooting: 41.1% last year from three-point land and 39.5% for his career. At 6-foot-8, Jones' length is an asset on defense, however his lack of quickness makes him an average defender overall. The biggest strike against Jones is the lack of data. He has played so sparingly over the last two seasons that it's difficult to forecast if he's still a legit NBA player.

18. Bobby Simmons
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3551.jpg
Bobby Simmons is coming off of a dreadful season with the Nets but he has enough recent production that he must be considered. In 2008-09, Simmons shot 44.7% on three-pointers and has hit better than 40% of his threes during his career. He specializes in hitting threes from the corners, which would work well in San Antonio. Defensive is a problem, however. He doesn't move well out on the perimeter and has developed a number of bad habits over the years. Signing with the Spurs could re-invigorate his career ... but that's far from a guarantee.

19. Tracy McGrady
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3179.jpg
Do the Spurs roll the dice and pray that Tracy McGrady's knee somehow heals enough to allow him to return to respectability? Due to character concerns, probably not. But it would be an interesting swing-for-the-fences move.

20. Jarvis Hayes
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3713.jpg
Jarvis Hayes has good size for the small forward position but his soft play makes him seem smaller than his 6-foot-8 listing. He's a spot-up shooting specialist who only hits for a decent percentage (35.6% on threes for his career). Defensively, his soft play is compounded by slow feet. Even though he's still only 28, Hayes shows no upside. Overall, he'd be a safe signing but there really is little hope of him being a championship-quality rotation player.

Bottom of the Barrel
These players should be able to be had with a minimum contract.

21. Bostjan Nachbar
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3613.jpg
After spending the last two years in Europe, Bostjan Nachbar reportedly wants back in the NBA. At 6-foot-9, Nachbar has good size for the position -- and that lets him get off his shot at any time. He has a career three-point shooting of 37.5% and rebounds well ... but that's about the extent of his usefulness. The Slovenian struggles mightily to defend both forward positions. Considering that he didn't perform well at times in Europe last season, Nachbar would probably have to settle for the minimum if he wishes to play in the NBA next season.

22. Rodney Carney
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/4144.jpg
Rodney Carney is your prototypical athletic prospect who has just never put it together. A lack of natural instinct on the court is what really holds him back. He can run fast, jump high, shoot decently, defend adequately ... but nothing has stood out enough for him to warrant consistent minutes on the NBA level. He's still only 26 years old so the possibility for improvement remains.

23. Stephen Graham
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/4012.jpg
A former Spurs training camp invite, Stephen Graham played 70 games under Larry Brown last year and was oftentimes utilized as a defensive stopper. That alone makes him a candidate for a minimum contract. He hit 49.6% of his shots from the field but only 32% of his three-pointers. He's unlikely to get much better so another minimum contract lies in his future.

24. Alan Anderson
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3995.jpg
The Spurs have had interest in Alan Anderson in the past and he recently got waived by Maccabi Tel Aviv. He's regarded as a good defender who can also rebound well for his size. While he's a decent passer, Anderson has a history of forcing bad shots -- and that would make him a risky signing in this system. Since he's a free agent, he could be a worthwhile candidate to check out in summer league.

25. Devin Brown
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Good ol' Devin Brown. It's likely that he burned his bridges back to his hometown of San Antonio but he's still chugging along in the NBA. Brown is a decent shooter and a decent defender at this stage of his career so it wouldn't be totally surprising to see him back in silver and black again.

26. Antoine Wright
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3941.jpg
He's been labeled as a defensive stopper ... but that's due to Antoine Wright's offense being so bad that there had to be some sort of excuse for why he has played so much in recent years. In truth, Wright is a slightly above average defender who isn't much help at all on the other side of the court. Unless the Spurs really value his defensive potential, it'd be difficult to justify the signing.

27. Joey Graham
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3942.jpg
Joey Graham is like a bigger, stronger version of his twin brother Stephen -- except he can't shoot at all and is surprisingly soft despite his strong build. His bulk makes him a liability against quick players on defense and his offensive game never developed.

28. Dominic McGuire
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/4338.jpg
Outside of Tony Allen, Dominic McGuire is probably the best defender on this list. He's six feet and nine inches of energy on the defensive end. Built like a pterodactyl, he can guard multiple positions and really rebound the ball. Unfortunately, there's one gigantic flaw to his game: he can't shoot. At all. He didn't even attempt a three-pointer last season and was 0-for-5 at the line. Nobody who played more than 28 games scored as infrequently as McGuire did last season. That lack of offense is a deal breaker.

29. Keith Bogans
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Ah, the centerpiece. After getting heaps of praise from Pop, Keith Bogans was a total non-factor in the playoffs. Even when he got good minutes in the regular season, he proved to be a bad offensive player who really wasn't that good on defense, either. I don't see a reason to bring Bogans back.

30. Damien Wilkins
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3900.jpg
Damien Wilkins is now a fringe NBA player. He scores infrequently and does so with poor efficiency. He's not a good shooter or defender. He has a good feel for the game but there is only so far intangibles can take a player.

[Man Mountain]

KBogans is better than half those players!

[peacemaker885]

Mike Miller stirs up Lakers interest:

Lakers open discussions with Miller

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By Dave McMenamin
ESPNLosAngeles.com
Archive

LOS ANGELES -- The Lakers have opened discussions with free-agent swingman Mike Miller although no contract has been offered, a source close to the situation said Thursday.

Miller, a former NBA rookie of the year and sixth man of the year, averaged 10.9 points on 50.1 percent shooting from the field and 48.0 percent shooting on 3-pointers last season for Washington in his 10th season in the league.

Miller would provide a sure outside stroke that the Lakers have lacked in recent seasons and help shore up a bench unit that could lose up to 22.5 points per game in scoring if free agent reserves Shannon Brown, Jordan Farmar, Josh Powell, D.J. Mbenga and Adam Morrison all leave for new horizons.

read more.. (http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/news/story?id=5347642)

[objective]

What do the Spurs need from their small forward position?

Two main aspects: defense and three-point shooting. As is, the Spurs lack a quality perimeter defender. And, as we saw in the playoffs, outside shooting is now a glaring problem for this team. Anything else from a small forward is gravy.



Jefferson brought neither. He wasn't even average at either of those.

Yet people are clamoring to bring him back at absurd amounts.

[SpursTillTheEnd]

25. Devin Brown
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3673.jpg
Good ol' Devin Brown. It's likely that he burned his bridges back to his hometown of San Antonio but he's still chugging along in the NBA. Brown is a decent shooter and a decent defender at this stage of his career so it wouldn't be totally surprising to see him back in silver and black again

what ever happened to devin brown why did he leave the spurs? he was one of my favorite spurs players ever.. yea but anyways i still say were ok with hariston and gee, and maybe we get tony allen

[Vic Petro]

Damn steep dropoff after #14

[EricB]

Yeah and name a player with the money they'd have available for a starting forward that would be better?


You can't cause there is none.

[SpursTillTheEnd]

hariston>jefferson, all yall supporting jefferson tell me what the hell he brings that is better than malik, cuz it damn sure aint jefferson's defense,offense,

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol bogans should be up the list fckn haters

[tim_duncan_fan]

Matt Barnes can steal minutes at PF

NO! That's part of what has been wrong with this team the past few years! Spurs small has been proven ineffective.

[TDMVPDPOY]

what ever happened to devin brown why did he leave the spurs? he was one of my favorite spurs players ever.. yea but anyways i still say were ok with hariston and gee, and maybe we get tony allen

money and lack of training

[EricB]

NO! That's part of what has been wrong with this team the past few years! Spurs small has been proven ineffective.

Uh afraid to tell you, but there are times where you have play small ball.

[baseline bum]

LJ, where do you rate Dick in this top 30?

[tim_duncan_fan]

Uh afraid to tell you, but there are times where you have play small ball.

That might be true, but in no system is Matt Barnes a power forward.

In any case, if we play any small ball this coming year, it better be with players that can actually run fast.


My opinion on small-ball is that if a team goes small, you have to hurt them in the paint with bigs. If Splitter can help us out with this we'll have to play less small ball.

[EricB]

That might be true, but in no system is Matt Barnes a power forward.

In any case, if we play any small ball this coming year, it better be with players that can actually run fast.


My opinion on small-ball is that if a team goes small, you have to hurt them in the paint with bigs. If Splitter can help us out with this we'll have to play less small ball.


Sigh..... Its not about systems its about matchups..

[tim_duncan_fan]

Sigh..... Its not about systems its about matchups..

Sigh...

I get that, but just because you trot four guards out onto the court, it doesn't make one of them a power forward.

Are you telling me he's gonna defend a power forward in the paint?

I mean, maybe he can. I don't know. I just rather he wouldn't have to if he came here.

[Cane]

Solid list and thread.

Here's to hoping that the Spurs come out all right :toast:

[objective]

what ever happened to devin brown why did he leave the spurs? he was one of my favorite spurs players ever.. yea but anyways i still say were ok with hariston and gee, and maybe we get tony allen

The Spurs that year only had money from the MLE left over after Oberto to sign a player. They offered it to Finley, Brown was the back-up plan if Finley had chosen Miami or PHX.


Yeah and name a player with the money they'd have available for a starting forward that would be better?

ANY player who can do one of two things as listed by timvp would be better: play even above average defense or shoot 3 pointers well.

Jefferson doesn't do either. If he's not defending . . . and he's playing soft . . . and he's not even stepping beyond the three-point-line . . . and he's not going to be the team's 4th or even 5th best scoring option (that would be Hill and Splitter) . . . then why bother signing him at such absurd amounts?

[EricB]

:lol @ thinking you can get a starting small forward for LLE....

[MaNu4Tres]

Solid summaries.

Although I think a lot of these prospects are very unrealistic.

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol devin brown aint even worth LLE

i throw him a minimum contract see if he bites

[objective]

If Jefferson was soooo crucial to the Spurs success, then he would have been finishing games for them, being clutch in crunch-time right?

Except for how he wasn't for half the games when I look back at the play-by-plays.

Game 4 against PHX - 3:26 left in the 4th, Spurs only down 7 in a winnable game, RJ is pulled

Game 3 against PHX - he sits the whole 4th quarter until 1:30 when garbage time kicks in and Pop pulls the important Spurs

Game 2 he plays

Game 1 he sits in the 4th while the Spurs cut the lead by 9 when he gets put in with 3:30 to go, and does nothing

Against the Mavs - Game 6- he sits the last 6 minutes of the 4th in what was a 4 point game

game 5 is a blowout, no one plays

Game 4 - he plays

game 3 - he's benched the entire 4th except for garbage time with 30 seconds left

game 2 - he plays

game 1 - he plays

How is he so crucial when nobody can even say with a straight face that Jefferson is a rock solid, set in stone piece of the Spurs closing 5? Pop's more likely to go Duncan-Splitter-Ginobili-Hill-Parker.

[tuncaboylu]

If we're going to spend our MLE to Splitter, half of the players in this list can be eleminated.

[EricB]

See how far in the playoffs you go with Rodney Carney starting at the 3 with your LLE.


But hey, he aint no evil Richard Jefferson mistah!!!

[EricB]

If we're going to spend our MLE to Splitter, half of the players in this list can be eleminated.

Try 75%

[MaNu4Tres]

If Jefferson was soooo crucial to the Spurs success, then he would have been finishing games for them, being clutch in crunch-time right?

Except for how he wasn't for half the games when I look back at the play-by-plays.

Game 4 against PHX - 3:26 left in the 4th, Spurs only down 7 in a winnable game, RJ is pulled

Game 3 against PHX - he sits the whole 4th quarter until 1:30 when garbage time kicks in and Pop pulls the important Spurs

Game 2 he plays

Game 1 he sits in the 4th while the Spurs cut the lead by 9 when he gets put in with 3:30 to go, and does nothing

Against the Mavs - Game 6- he sits the last 6 minutes of the 4th in what was a 4 point game

game 5 is a blowout, no one plays

Game 4 - he plays

game 3 - he's benched the entire 4th except for garbage time with 30 seconds left

game 2 - he plays

game 1 - he plays

How is he so crucial when nobody can even say with a straight face that Jefferson is a rock solid, set in stone piece of the Spurs closing 5? Pop's more likely to go Duncan-Splitter-Ginobili-Hill-Parker.

Ask Pop and R.C since you won't listen to anyone else here.

They are included in the group of people that actually think its best for the Spurs to try to retain him.

But they don't know anything, right?

[ata]

21. Bostjan Nachbar
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/basketball/nba/players/3613.jpg
After spending the last two years in Europe, Bostjan Nachbar reportedly wants back in the NBA. At 6-foot-9, Nachbar has good size for the position -- and that lets him get off his shot at any time. He has a career three-point shooting of 37.5% and rebounds well ... but that's about the extent of his usefulness. The Slovenian struggles mightily to defend both forward positions. Considering that he didn't perform well at times in Europe last season, Nachbar would probably have to settle for the minimum if he wishes to play in the NBA next season.


One of the reasons/excuses for Nachbar's miserable season was coach and odd system coach wanted to implemet - according to Nachbar.
I would wait until WC in Turkey. On the other hand, if he is ready to sign one year at vet. min. I would go for it.

[EricB]

Ask Pop and R.C since you won't listen to anyone else here.

They are included in the group of people that actually think its best for the Spurs to try to retain him.

But they don't know anything, right?


You know of Pop? RC? Aristotle?

Yes.

Morons.


Never engage asians in a land war.

Nor a sicilian in a battle of wits.

[objective]

Logical reasons for trying someone else instead of Jefferson :

1. He didn't shoot threes.

2. He didn't defend well.

3. He wasn't a consistent member of the Spurs closing squad in crunchtime, and there's no reason to think he will be next season.

4. He often could be described as playing soft or as not hustling.

5. He's 30 and declining athletically.

6. He rocked out to 9 points a game in the playoffs.

7. He was benched for a stretch of games and only brought back as a starter after Parker's injury.

8. If he performed like that in his contract year, imagine him with job security.

9. Failed miserably when counted on to be the defensive stopper at the beginning of the season, causing Pop to unleash the Centerpiece.

10. He often won't even be the 4th option on the floor in line-ups with TD-Manu-TP, that will be Hill or Splitter.

Logical reasons for paying Jefferson a lot of money in a multi-year deal:

:huh

Well . . . I guess . . . uh . . . we don't know if Hairston/Gee/LLE scrub can fail to the tune of 9 ppg and not play in crunchtime while standing around inside the 3-point line.

[MaNu4Tres]

Logical reasons for trying someone else instead of Jefferson :

1. He didn't shoot threes.

2. He didn't defend well.

3. He wasn't a consistent member of the Spurs closing squad in crunchtime, and there's no reason to think he will be next season.

4. He often could be described as playing soft or as not hustling.

5. He's 30 and declining athletically.

6. He rocked out to 9 points a game in the playoffs.

7. He was benched for a stretch of games and only brought back as a starter after Parker's injury.

8. If he performed like that in his contract year, imagine him with job security.

9. Failed miserably when counted on to be the defensive stopper at the beginning of the season, causing Pop to unleash the Centerpiece.

10. He often won't even be the 4th option on the floor in line-ups with TD-Manu-TP, that will be Hill or Splitter.

Logical reasons for paying Jefferson a lot of money in a multi-year deal:

:huh

Well . . . I guess . . . uh . . . we don't know if Hairston/Gee/LLE scrub can fail to the tune of 9 ppg and not play in crunchtime while standing around inside the 3-point line.

Yet, Spurs are interested in bringing him back.

What morons, they really need a new GM.

[objective]

Ask Pop and R.C since you won't listen to anyone else here.

They are included in the group of people that actually think its best for the Spurs to try to retain him.

But they don't know anything, right?

you gots me there.

I present logical arguments and the response is about Pop and RC?

:lol

Maybe I'm one of the great, unwashed masses, but even fellows like me can be right once in a blue moon.

[objective]

Yet, Spurs are interested in bringing him back.

What morons, they really need a new GM.

So you have no logical counter-reasons.

Spurs also were interested in signing Bonner over Scola.

Pobody's Nerfect. Not even the Spurs.

[MaNu4Tres]

you gots me there.

I present logical arguments and the response is about Pop and RC?

:lol

Maybe I'm one of the great, unwashed masses, but even fellows like me can be right once in a blue moon.

Because I've presented the scenario on why the Spurs may think Jefferson is the still the most valuable, best/realistic option many many many times.

If you want me to dig it up I can.

[UnWantedTheory]

hariston>jefferson, all yall supporting jefferson tell me what the hell he brings that is better than malik, cuz it damn sure aint jefferson's defense,offense,

Well bro., I am not dogging you at all,....but tell us what Malik brings? The honest answer(s) would be..."we dont know" to "there is a reason he has played so little." He has some potential, but he has not shown enough to warrant a starting job or quality minutes thus far. Again, I do believe he has potnetial, but he has no shot in the literal sense. I am not saying RJ is great or better...but we know what we can expect from him. I honestly dont believe Malik will ever be a starter, but thats just me. I am not necessarily against you, but I am not necessarily for you either. I am not PRO RJ, but I am not an RJ hater....and honestly he is the better option out of what we have on our roster or what we can expect from FA. With that said, I could care less who starts at SF, as long as its to the benefit of the teams overall success during this brief and slightly ajar window of opportunity.


Overall, this is all that matters to me....:lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt::flag::lobt2:

[EricB]

Logical reasons for trying someone else instead of Jefferson :

1. He didn't shoot threes.

2. He didn't defend well.

3. He wasn't a consistent member of the Spurs closing squad in crunchtime, and there's no reason to think he will be next season.

4. He often could be described as playing soft or as not hustling.

5. He's 30 and declining athletically.

6. He rocked out to 9 points a game in the playoffs.

7. He was benched for a stretch of games and only brought back as a starter after Parker's injury.

8. If he performed like that in his contract year, imagine him with job security.

9. Failed miserably when counted on to be the defensive stopper at the beginning of the season, causing Pop to unleash the Centerpiece.

10. He often won't even be the 4th option on the floor in line-ups with TD-Manu-TP, that will be Hill or Splitter.

Logical reasons for paying Jefferson a lot of money in a multi-year deal:

:huh

Well . . . I guess . . . uh . . . we don't know if Hairston/Gee/LLE scrub can fail to the tune of 9 ppg and not play in crunchtime while standing around inside the 3-point line.


:lmao @ Hairston


James White! has nothin on this guy....

[SpursTillTheEnd]

listen there is no way in hell rj should be back as a spur, everything objective said is true, but what ive learned is that alot of people on here dick ride timvp, if he says rj is good for us they will follow what he says, for all yall saying that rj is a good fit for us explain its not hard to do. but you cant come up with any reason rj is good for us. so shut the hell up

[objective]

Because I've presented the scenario on why the Spurs may think Jefferson is the still the most valuable, best/realistic option many many many times.

If you want me to dig it up I can.

what I took away from your other postings was basically that you hope RJ can hit threes next season, just like people hoped Bonner and Mason wouldn't reproduce their fail two postseasons in a row.

The rest was about not liking the other options, be they LLE scrubs or current young unproven scrubs like Hairston, Anderson or whomever.

But nothing that was too convincing that he was better than the unknown, because of the known performance this past season as I laid out.

If I'm missing something or mischaracterizing anything, my apologies.

[objective]

I'd be fine with any of the listed LLe possibilities other than James Jones, Simmons, McGrady and Hayes.

The bottomer list I'd be fine with Stephen Graham or letting the current Spurs struggle their way through.

It's not like the Spurs have to replace their defensive stopper, or one of their 4 best scorers, 5 if you think Splitter can do what he did in Spain.

[ace3g]

My only question is how are the Spurs going to get the likes of Mike Miller, Childress, Korver (3 guys I added to my SF list yesterday knowing the possibility of having a trade exception). I got somewhat shot down yesterday because I was told trade exceptions can't be used to sign FA, and all 3 of those guys are? Would they have to first be signed by their respective teams then traded to the Spurs?

[UnWantedTheory]

listen there is no way in hell rj should be back as a spur, everything objective said is true, but what ive learned is that alot of people on here dick ride timvp, if he says rj is good for us they will follow what he says, for all yall saying that rj is a good fit for us explain its not hard to do. but you cant come up with any reason rj is good for us. so shut the hell up



You are one ignorant, rude, ass. Almost no one is saying he is a good fit for us or even all that great,...what most are saying is that he is the lesser of the evils of the proven and/or unknowns that may or may not be within our reach. We know what to expect from him, and we know what we can expect from some of your proposed replacements(Hairston & Gee)...which is a big fat ? I am not saying RJ should be with us, but he is realistically one of the better options at his position on the market...especially with a year in our system. We are trying to win now. I am not saying he is going to put us over the top, nor do I care if he returns;but what you would propse would make us more for the future, rather than for now. I dont believe he will be back, so who cares...But Hairston, Gee, Barnes, Jones, etc. will not cover it with the money we are able to spend. Stop hearing what you want to hear and actually listen to what some of us are saying. I am assuming you will only hear RJ homerism, which is why you actually need to pay attention to what is being said, rather than trying to be "right" and against everything. You accuse others of riding Timvps dick? Its funny, because you seem to have the same problem,...you just dont know the name of the train your on.

[MaNu4Tres]

what I took away from your other postings was basically that you hope RJ can hit threes next season, just like people hoped Bonner and Mason wouldn't reproduce their fail two postseasons in a row.

The rest was about not liking the other options, be they LLE scrubs or current young unproven scrubs like Hairston, Anderson or whomever.

But nothing that was too convincing that he was better than the unknown, because of the known performance this past season as I laid out.

If I'm missing something or mischaracterizing anything, my apologies.

Both of those points were small, yet important reasons why Spurs would consider resigning Jefferson, a big part of it is the scenario that is playing out.

NJ is reportedly not interested in RJ. That takes away from a sign and trade situation.

NY doesn't make any sense either; which takes another possible sign and trade situation which was elaborated here:


I don't understand why the Knicks would want Jefferson.

They have two intriguing prospects at small forward in Gallinari and Chandler.

Jefferson is not good enough to spend 8-9 million a year, when they have Gallinari and Chandler there for a fraction of the price. That is bad basketball economics to add significant salary to an already set position.

Only way they'd sign a small forward is if it was LeBron. IMO

I'm willing to bet Jefferson sticks with SA.


Which leaves this left for R.J or any potential sign and trade situations:


Teams that still have enough cap space to offer RJ a contract larger than the MLE (assuming all reported trades and signings go through):

Miami
Chicago
Washington
Clippers
Sacramento

I don't see a match. While crazy money is flowing all over the NBA, RJ and his agent may have badly misjudged the market for his services.

Spurs should be patient, keep a reasonable short-term deal on the table (3/24) and see if a market develops for RJ.


Given this scenario that is transpiring, Jefferson finding a home outside of San Antonio is less likely unless it's for the MLE, which would kill just about all sign and trade scenarios. ( Which would leave the Spurs with the LLE to fill the huge gap at SF).

But lets just say NJ and NY all wanted him and gave the Spurs a trade exception for your sake(or agreed to a sign and trade). If that scenario were to play out, the Spurs still wouldn't be getting anything guaranteed in return via trade exception:





For your dream scenario to play out:

You have to go through each of these steps to logically think about this scenario.

1) You got to find a team willing to sign Jefferson. Meaning they have to have a hole to fill at the SF position and have the cap space to sign him. Or they must have a player of less ability that they are willing to part with in a sign and trade ( meaning Spurs aren't the real winners in a player for player sign and trade swap).

2)This team must have a player that they are willing to part with, and that fits the Spurs better than R.J. and that would be more productive being the 4th option.

3) If there is a trade exception being sent to the Spurs ( instead of a player), what are realistic possibilities for such a move on both sides? * In case you didn't know- there's only a handful of scenarios that actually make some sense on both sides*

You have to go through all these three steps and find matches in every aspect. That my friend is a long-shot and that is why the Spurs are interested in resigning Jefferson because he is the best-most realistic option.

Spurs would be fools to let Jefferson walk, in hopes of finding such a dream scenario where the Spurs net a better piece.

The reality is Spurs are better off with Jefferson instead of having to live with a player for the LLE and 7-9 million per year for him isn't bad value. Especially considering what players are getting paid right now (Spurs also just paid Mason/Finley and Bogans 9 million total) and especially considering he's proven to be a reliable three point shooter for more than half of his career. Rumors are Pop is working with him; he must obviously think RJ has the potential to regain his footing in this aspect; which makes me even more optimistic about resigning him. All of these factors, factor into my reasons why I believe Jefferson should be in the Spurs best interest. It's a better option than James Jones at the LLE. ( Worse case scenario; If things don't pan out in 2 years after Duncan retires; his salary and contract will be respectable enough to move more easily than it was before.)

[tim_duncan_fan]

I'd rather we get one of the vets on this list and give Hairston or Gee or someone some burn. Please no more RJ. He plays scared and you just can't fix that.


Anyway, this is not the season to play weak-minded players or to be conservative in front office decisions. Whatever happens, Tim Duncan is on his way to the Hall of Fame and we are gonna be shit so we need to be doing something to make his last few seasons memorable.

Let us not sign scary players who disappear in the playoffs, small forwards who can't shoot the three (even if they're perceived to be the only option), ginger big men that can't play in the post or "centerpieces" that have no discernible skills other occasionally not letting their man get by them.

Let's shy away from anybody that doesn't want it. If you're scared to take a three to win the game then GTFO! Tim, Tony, Manu, Hill, Splitter, Blair, Temple...I'm betting any of these guys will take a shot to win the game and believe they can make it. We have no need for you MATT BONNER!


We're nearing the end of the Tim Duncan era and I don't want him to have to go out playing with the likes of Richard Jefferson, Matt Bonner and the centerpiece. Fuck all that! If we end up with Tim, Tony, Manu, Hill, Blair and a bunch of rookies and D-Leaguers then so be it!


In short:

No weenies on the 2010-2011 San Antonio Spurs please!!!!

[objective]

The reality is Spurs are better off with Jefferson than having to live with a player for the LLE and 7-9 million per year for him isn't bad value. Especially considering what players are getting paid right now and especially considering he's proven to be a reliable three point shooter for more than half of his career. Rumors are Pop is working with him; he must obviously think RJ has the potential to regain his footing in this aspect; which gives me even more optimistic about resigning him. All of these factors, factor in to my reasons why I believe Jefferson should be in the Spurs best interest. It's a better option than James Jones at the LLE.

But why is Jefferson better than LLE/Spur-scrub at 7-9 million per? I mean on the court. I'm not especially concerned with S/Ts as they seem unlikely. So the likely alternative is LLE or Spur-scrub (unproven players like Anderson, Hairston, Gee and the like).

I still don't see a good reason why Jefferson is better on the court.

You say that he's proven to be a reliable three-point shooter for more than half his career. I appreciate that he shot 3s well with the Bucks when he was the main guy. But he wasn't the dead-eye from 3 last year, his only year as a Spur. And he's been in the playoffs 7 times, and shot a 3-point % of 32.5% or worse 6 of those 7 post-seasons.

The Spurs don't need his scoring (single digits in the playoffs). Hill was the better scorer last year and due to his age and experience it's reasonable to predict he can be even better next year. Plus Splitter as a scoring option next year if he signs.

They don't need his defense, especially after he lost his defensive stopper role. He arguably wasn't better than Hill, Ginobili or the Centerpiece for defending wings.

They don't need his below average PER.

They don't need him for crunch-time.

What has he demonstrated being so good at that they should keep him over the unknown?

I'll grant that he had some good rebounding games in the playoffs but his postseason average was unremarkable for his minutes.

[UnWantedTheory]

But why is Jefferson better than LLE/Spur-scrub at 7-9 million per? I mean on the court. I'm not especially concerned with S/Ts as they seem unlikely. So the likely alternative is LLE or Spur-scrub (unproven players like Anderson, Hairston, Gee and the like).

I still don't see a good reason why Jefferson is better on the court.

You say that he's proven to be a reliable three-point shooter for more than half his career. I appreciate that he shot 3s well with the Bucks when he was the main guy. But he wasn't the dead-eye from 3 last year, his only year as a Spur. And he's been in the playoffs 7 times, and shot a 3-point % of 32.5% or worse 6 of those 7 post-seasons.

The Spurs don't need his scoring (single digits in the playoffs). Hill was the better scorer last year and due to his age and experience it's reasonable to predict he can be even better next year. Plus Splitter as a scoring option next year if he signs.

They don't need his defense, especially after he lost his defensive stopper role. He arguably wasn't better than Hill, Ginobili or the Centerpiece for defending wings.

They don't need his below average PER.

They don't need him for crunch-time.

What has he demonstrated being so good at that they should keep him over the unknown?

I'll grant that he had some good rebounding games in the playoffs but his postseason average was unremarkable for his minutes.


I undertsand what you are saying,...I really do...But a equally fair question is.....what have the unknowns done to warrant the risk? I believe that is what most think.


Unknowns meaning(to me), Hairston & Gee. I can expect the Matt Barnes, J Jones, etc., but I wouldnt expect much more of a result. If that is the case than maybe we are better with Hairston. But I believe we are trying to give it one last go, so RJ, IMO, is the better option at this point. If we just want to stand pat, than NO, fuck him. Either way, I doubt we get him back. I expect an LLE guy to come. I also expect us to make the PO's, but possibly not advance to the second round. Oh well.

[MaNu4Tres]

But why is Jefferson better than LLE/Spur-scrub at 7-9 million per? I mean on the court. I'm not especially concerned with S/Ts as they seem unlikely. So the likely alternative is LLE or Spur-scrub (unproven players like Anderson, Hairston, Gee and the like).

I still don't see a good reason why Jefferson is better on the court.

You say that he's proven to be a reliable three-point shooter for more than half his career. I appreciate that he shot 3s well with the Bucks when he was the main guy. But he wasn't the dead-eye from 3 last year, his only year as a Spur. And he's been in the playoffs 7 times, and shot a 3-point % of 32.5% or worse 6 of those 7 post-seasons.

The Spurs don't need his scoring (single digits in the playoffs). Hill was the better scorer last year and due to his age and experience it's reasonable to predict he can be even better next year. Plus Splitter as a scoring option next year if he signs.

They don't need his defense, especially after he lost his defensive stopper role. He arguably wasn't better than Hill, Ginobili or the Centerpiece for defending wings.

They don't need his below average PER.

They don't need him for crunch-time.

What has he demonstrated being so good at that they should keep him over the unknown?

I'll grant that he had some good rebounding games in the playoffs but his postseason average was unremarkable for his minutes.

Because they believe he can be a much better fit next year and he has proven to be capable in this regard. Him rediscovering just the confidence in his 3 point shooting will do wonders for the team spacing and do wonders for his ability to get to the line from spot up- triple threat scenarios from the Manu/Tony pick and roll; when the defense is shifting and closing out hard. That one aspect will open up the flood gates on the Spurs' overall potential attack as a team. And this single aspect is quite reasonable to believe in considering Jeffersons past.

In regards of last year, sure he wasn't the picture perfect fit, but you are ignoring the positives Jefferson brought to the Spurs last season. As I posted here:


People really under rate the production he brought to the Spurs as the 4th option.

Sure he wasn't the "picture perfect fit", and sure he didn't average the 20 points he averaged in Milwaukee, but those 20 points per game was impossible to produce with the scarce amount of opportunities he had playing behind the big 3.

Even if he was the 4th option, he still scored in double digits in 58 games last year (more than 15 points per game in 32 outings). And was instrumental in many victories, even in the playoffs.

About his defense, I know he wasn't Bruce Bowen on the defensive end, but the guy showed progress as the season progressed; not so much on the ball, but off the ball; especially in putting in the effort and contesting shots around the rim more effectively than any big man outside of Duncan. I'm not saying he was Dikembe Mutombo by any means; but he was progressively active in this regard, especially in the last few months of the season.

Overall saying he didn't do anything is foolish to say.

Without him the Spurs would have more than likely been a lottery team this past year. Fact is R.J gets too much of the blame for the Spurs' disappointing year. He was not the reason why the Spurs rubbed one out, so to speak.

There were other reasons why the Spurs failed when it was all said and done. Most notably, the lack of having an established clear cut 5th wing ( part of it was Pop's fault) and the lack of interior defense that doomed the Spurs in the end. Not so much Jefferson.

Pop stubbornly made the wrong choice for the team by investing in the wrong players (Mason, Bogans) all damn year. Even when these two players were atrocious for the last 3 months of the season, Pop didn't budge and stubbornly played the law of averages game. In the end, Pop put the team in a very vulnerable position from a depth standpoint by stubbornly giving Mason and Bogans the responsibility as the 5th wing. It made no sense to do this and still doesn't til this day.

As a result of Mason and Bogans maintaining their atrocious status, the Spurs back court and Jefferson were forced way too many minutes and it showed in their 4th quarter execution down the stretch ( even in the Dallas series ).

Pop should have given more responsibility and prepared Hairston or Temple somewhere in the last 2 months of the regular season, when Mason and Bogans were consistently horrid. (Believe it or not, Hairston and Temple had more productive minutes than Mason and Bogans did all season; even if they played less minutes. )

If Hairston or Temple would have panned out as a 5th wing, Spurs could have stretched their bench enough, which would've given Manu more gas at the end of games to " go for the throat", and Hill wouldn't have had as big of a responsibility offensively ( because of Manu and Tony having less but more efficient minutes, and more efficient touches). But Pop was too stubborn to find this out.

By no means am I blaming the year on Popovich, but he certainly could have made different decisions in regards of the rotation that could have put the Spurs in a better position to compete in the playoffs. Many people just point at R.J and blame him. I couldn't disagree more.

.

[velik_m]

Isn't Childress a RFA?

[objective]

Because they believe he can be a much better fit next year and he has proven to be capable in this regard.

They believed in Bonner, Mason and the Centerpiece too. While confidence in a a player from the Spurs is nice, I don't see it as that convincing.


Him rediscovering just the confidence in his 3 point shooting will do wonders for the team spacing and do wonders for his ability to get to the line from spot up- triple threat scenarios from the Manu/Tony pick and roll; when the defense is shifting and closing out hard. That one aspect will open up the flood gates on the Spurs' overall potential attack as a team. And this single aspect is quite reasonable to believe in considering Jeffersons past.

Isn't it just as likely that he performs the same or worse as he did in 09-10? Why would he get better at 3s when he was in a contract year with open looks? Not saying he can't, or that I hope he wouldn't, I just don't see any good reason for optimism.


In regards of last year, sure he wasn't the picture perfect fit, but you are ignoring the positives Jefferson brought to the Spurs last season . .


Okay, let me see what I've been ignoring.


[QUOTE]People really under rate the production he brought to the Spurs as the 4th option.

Sure he wasn't the "picture perfect fit", and sure he didn't average the 20 points he averaged in Milwaukee, but those 20 points per game was impossible to produce with the scarce amount of opportunities he had playing behind the big 3.

Even if he was the 4th option, he still scored in double digits in 58 games last year (more than 15 points per game in 32 outings). And was instrumental in many victories, even in the playoffs.

A reasonable alternative backed up by stats would be that he wasn't even the 4th option, George Hill was. And with Splitter, he might not even be the 5th option (I mean on the roster, not a lineup obviously where the 5th guy on the court would have to be the 5th option).


About his defense, I know he wasn't Bruce Bowen on the defensive end, but the guy showed progress as the season progressed; not so much on the ball, but off the ball; especially in putting in the effort and contesting shots around the rim more effectively than any big man outside of Duncan. I'm not saying he was Dikembe Mutombo by any means; but he was progressively active in this regard, especially in the last few months of the season.

He got somewhat better, but still wasn't very good at the end. He was better but only compared to how terrible he was the first half. Was he one the 3 best Spurs for defending wings? Even during the second half or the playoffs, I can't say he was. He had some blocks and contests, but 0.6 blocks in the playoffs isn't that great. His Blocks per 36 was better than any player getting regular minutes not named Duncan, McDyess or Blair. Taking a look at timvp's list of SF candidates, are all of them worse defenders than RJ? I can't say I believe so.


Overall saying he didn't do anything is foolish to say.

Without him the Spurs would have more than likely been a lottery team this past year. Fact is R.J gets too much of the blame for the Spurs' disappointing year. He was not the reason why the Spurs rubbed one out, so to speak.

I'm skeptical that the Spurs, who finished 8 games above the 9th seed, would have been a lottery team without RJ. They won more games in 09 with Finley starting at SF. The big 3 also missed only 37 games combined in 09-10 compared 55 games combined in 08-09.

I don't see how RJ is getting too much blame. He was brought in to be the defensive stopper, he wasn't. He was brought in to be the 4th scorer, but George Hill was. He wasn't even used in crunch-time for half of the playoff games. And he was even benched during the season. And his play with regards to 3 point shooting was so striking in a bad way that it garnered attention from the national broadcast announcers.

I'll flip the question. What did Jefferson do exactly to help the Spurs win in the playoffs that he deserves credit for as opposed to blame? He had one standout half against Dallas that I remember, and some good rebounding games against PHX. That's all that comes to mind.


There were other reasons why the Spurs failed when it was all said and done. Most notably, the lack of having an established clear cut 5th wing ( part of it was Pop's fault) and the lack of interior defense that doomed the Spurs in the end. Not so much Jefferson.

Pop stubbornly made the wrong choice for the team by investing in the wrong players (Mason, Bogans) all damn year. Even when these two players were atrocious for the last 3 months of the season, Pop didn't budge and stubbornly played the law of averages game. In the end, Pop put the team in a very vulnerable position from a depth standpoint by stubbornly giving Mason and Bogans the responsibility as the 5th wing. It made no sense to do this and still doesn't til this day.

As a result of Mason and Bogans maintaining their atrocious status, the Spurs back court and Jefferson were forced way too many minutes and it showed in their 4th quarter execution down the stretch ( even in the Dallas series ).


So earlier when I gave reasons in opposition to Pop and RC's choices (or possible/probable future choices), it was terrible. I dared disagree with Pop and so you posted that I must think that Pop was "a moron" and that Pop and RC "don't know anything".

But here you are, disagreeing with the very moves Pop made. Does this mean you think Pop is a moron who should be replaced because he doesn't know anything?

Now I'm just busting your chops. Sorry, had to do it. :toast

I do agree by the way that Pop made the wrong decisions with regards to Bogans and Mason. Bogans moreso because at least Mason had some marginal track record albeit regular season as a Spur to give him a chance. Hairston meanwhile seemed to outperform Bogans every step of the way including pre-season.

So if Pop had unreasonable faith in Bogans and Mason . . . isn't it possible that he would have unreasonable faith in Jefferson leading him to work out with him personally this summer? Or that maybe Pop was working with him this summer to try to salvage something out of him with the expectation that the Spurs would be stuck with him for next year.


Hopefully now Splitter can come in to help the interior defense and hopefully Spurs can find a respectable replacement for R.J via trade ( less likely) or for the LLE. If not then I hope Hairston, Gee and Anderson are ready to contribute.

Here we can agree. And 'respectable replacement' for RJ isn't such an impossibility based on his production last year.

[MaNu4Tres]

So now we are comparing Mason, Bogans and Bonner to Jefferson?

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Mason, Bogans and Bonner have proved to be one dimensional players at best and all have a relative low ceiling.

Jefferson on the other hand is the polar opposite, in which he has proven to be a mult-dimensional player that has a high ceiling. Unfortunately, Jefferson had a bad year compared to his previous years where he was one of the best small forwards in the league. Same can't be said for your wishful analogy. Which is why Spurs probably believe that talented arsenal of Jefferson's is worth another look, compared to the inferior alternative. Especially after an off-season under the tutelage of one of the best coaches the game has ever had.

This is just another reason why the Spurs obviously think 7-9 million a year is worth the gamble, given his track record.


All of these reasons in the past 2 pages are why Jefferson is the best option for the Spurs. Rather than passing on Jefferson and acquiring a has-been piece for the LLE with a very low ceiling.

Spurs are trying to win a championship, and the higher the ceiling the better the chances are for the Spurs.

And it seems like Pop and R.C are thinking that way as well.

[objective]

So now we are comparing Mason, Bogans and Bonner to Jefferson?

That makes no sense whatsoever.

I was comparing confidence in players, warranted or not. And when consider production to payscale, further comparisons aren't that bad.


Mason, Bogans and Bonner have proved to be one dimensional players at best and all have a relative low ceiling.

Jefferson on the other hand is the polar opposite, in which he has proven to be a mult-dimensional player that has a high ceiling.

Jefferson had proven that he was a multi-dimensional player who had a high ceiling. What kind of ceiling is there for him now that he's at best the 4th option if not worse? He's not on a bad team where he gets all the touches he wants. And he's not on a team that caters it's offense to the fastbreak style. It took like a month and a half for the Spurs to work in a lob play for RJ, and that was all RJ and Parker getting together on their own and making it happen, it wasn't demanded by Pop.


And it seems like Pop and R.C are thinking that way as well.

For a guy who had no problem ripping on Pop for how he handled underperforming guys like Bonner, Bogans and Mason, you seem eager to set aside any critiquing of Jefferson and the Spurs.

If the Spurs let him walk . . . will they be right because they didn't want him back badly enough, or will they be wrong because they didn't want him back badly enough?

[MaNu4Tres]

I was comparing confidence in players, warranted or not. And when consider production to payscale, further comparisons aren't that bad.

:rolleyes




For a guy who had no problem ripping on Pop for how he handled underperforming guys like Bonner, Bogans and Mason, you seem eager to set aside any critiquing of Jefferson and the Spurs.

Read again: The bold please


So now we are comparing Mason, Bogans and Bonner to Jefferson?

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Mason, Bogans and Bonner have proved to be one dimensional players at best and all have a relative low ceiling.

Jefferson on the other hand is the polar opposite, in which he has proven to be a mult-dimensional player that has a high ceiling. Unfortunately, Jefferson had a bad year compared to his previous years where he was one of the best small forwards in the league. Same can't be said for your wishful analogy. Which is why Spurs probably believe that talented arsenal of Jefferson's is worth another look, compared to the inferior alternative. Especially after an off-season under the tutelage of one of the best coaches the game has ever had.

This is just another reason why the Spurs obviously think 7-9 million a year is worth the gamble, given his track record.


All of these reasons in the past 2 pages are why Jefferson is the best option for the Spurs. Rather than passing on Jefferson and acquiring a has-been piece for the LLE with a very low ceiling.

Spurs are trying to win a championship, and the higher the ceiling the better the chances are for the Spurs.

And it seems like Pop and R.C are thinking that way as well.



If the Spurs let him walk . . . will they be right because they didn't want him back badly enough, or will they be wrong because they didn't want him back badly enough?

If Spurs have a plan to attain a viable option at SF that's better than the LLE (which is more than likely unrealistic) then yeah they will be right letting him go. If they let him go, without a plan of action to fill this vital need then they will be wrong by letting him go for a player for the LLE.

[mystargtr34]

One of the reasons/excuses for Nachbar's miserable season was coach and odd system coach wanted to implemet - according to Nachbar.
I would wait until WC in Turkey. On the other hand, if he is ready to sign one year at vet. min. I would go for it.

Everytime i read one of your posts, i swipe my computer screen thinking there is a fucking bug on there :lol

[objective]

Read again: The bold please

Doesn't refute anything I've posted for a second time. Sorry.


If Spurs have a plan to attain a viable option at SF that's better than the LLE (which is more than likely unrealistic) then yeah they will be right letting him go. If they let him go, without a plan of action to fill this vital need then they will be wrong by letting him go for a player for the LLE.

they'll be wrong? OMG! They're never wrong!

[MaNu4Tres]

Doesn't refute anything I've posted for a second time. Sorry.

I think so.

[MaNu4Tres]

I really hope the Spurs end up with Stephen Graham as the starting small forward. We would really have a great shot at beating the Lakers then.

[Mr Bones]

If the more talented options of Wright, Jones, and Butler are gone, another option might be to simply go for defensive length-- two unconventional guys I could see playing 10 mpg at SF might be Jonathan Bender and Pecherov. They'd be killed by quickness, but with Splitter and Duncan + a 7' wingspan at SF, the extreme defensive length might work for brief stints. Not the best solution... but it might be the only thing left.

I wouldn't completely discount McGuire based on his offensive shortcomings either. Forget about shooting from the 3 spot when he's in and make him an offensive rebounder. Again, not a perfect solution, but it beats having Bogans or Hairston in there.

[MaNu4Tres]

If the more talented options of Wright, Jones, and Butler are gone, another option might be to simply go for defensive length-- two unconventional guys I could see playing 10 mpg at SF might be Jonathan Bender and Pecherov. They'd be killed by quickness, but with Splitter and Duncan + a 7' wingspan at SF, the extreme defensive length might work for brief stints. Not the best solution... but it might be the only thing left.

Maybe we can dig to the bottom of the barrel even more and maybe get the corpse of Manute Bol to start at small forward for us. Now we are talking about some length.

[Mr Bones]

Maybe we can dig to the bottom of the barrel even more and maybe get the corpse of Manute Bol to start at small forward for us. Now we are talking about some length.

Too soon?

[MaNu4Tres]

Too soon?

Delirious maybe.

With all due respect to the late Manute Bol, the guy was a legend in many ways much like our very own David Robinson. By no means did I mean to disrespect the humanitarian he was. He certainly is missed and I by no means meant to disrespect him. If you got that from my post, it wasn't intended by any means.

[objective]

I really hope the Spurs end up with Stephen Graham as the starting small forward. We would really have a great shot at beating the Lakers then.

Only if Graham could fail at the 10 shortcomings of RJ that remain unchallenged by anyone on this board except for deflecting comments about how Pop and RC are flawless.

Except he'd fail at 10-20% of the price! Genious!

[Mr Bones]

I agree at this point that Jefferson is clearly the best option, but that depends entirely on him and I have no idea what he's thinking. But seeing the way he usually reacted to Pop screaming at him all year, I wouldn't be shocked to see him go elsewhere for less money.

[MaNu4Tres]

Only if Graham could fail at the 10 shortcomings of RJ that remain unchallenged by anyone on this board except for deflecting comments about how Pop and RC are flawless.

Except he'd fail at 10-20% of the price! Genious!

Okay "genious" we can agree to disagree. I bow down to your expertise.

You haven't convinced me with your rinse and repeat viewpoints.

Have fun :jack on the thought of Stephen Graham starting for the Spurs, when Spurs can have Jefferson instead for half of his previous salary.

[objective]

Okay "genious" we can agree to disagree. I bow down to your expertise.

You haven't convinced me with your rinse and repeat viewpoints.

Have fun :jack on the thought of Stephen Graham starting for the Spurs, when Spurs can have Jefferson instead for half of his previous salary.

I always agree to disagree. :) I don't usually stoop to levels of attacking people with insinuations of jacking it and assertions that those people think they're better than Pop and RC. At least not specifically, I tend to address entire swaths of people in that way. Like Bonner-fans.

I don't want anyone bowing to my expertise, I welcome the debate.

And my viewpoints presented to you have been anything but 'rinse and repeat'. Time and again I've brought a new angle to the debate. His shooting. His defense. His place as a scoring option both now and in the future with Splitter. How the role of a 4th scorer was usurped by Hill. Then on different threads new things keep popping up that I bring in with research, like his career postseason 3 pt % by year, or his playing time in the 4th quarters of playoff games.

I'm on these threads looking for well-reasoned responses to those concerns, or at least other issues that even the playing field. But most of what I'm finding is "LOL @ Hairston and LLE!" and "RJ shot 3s pretty good for a garbage Milwaukee team!" and "If Pop and RC think he's worth it, then he's worth it".

I would close by saying that whether the Spurs win the title in 2011 will mostly depend on their 3 best players performing well plus the next tier of the next 2 best players, a big 5 that will be TD, Manu, Parker, Splitter and Hill. Plus they'll need spot good performances from their role players stepping up, like Blair, McDyess, Anderson, and the Small Forward (RJ or whomever).

That's what RJ is now. A role player. No need to overpay for a role player.

[OrEmuN]

The problem with Jefferson is his contract. Even at 6-8million for 3-4 years is not worthwhile, given his production.

I was also disgusted that he opted out, hence killing that 15 million expiring contract. Not too thrilled to hear of the possibility of 3/24 contract for RJ either. However, I think there is a silver lining to this

Since RJ has opted out and we hold his Bird's rights, that is to say we have the bargaining power when it comes to S&T with teams who want him but does not have cap space. As such, we will be able to get something out of him.

For teams who have cap space, they are probably interested in the big names first, rather than RJ. Hence, it is not likely that they will make any offer to him til the big names are signed up. I think this will allow Spurs to low-ball him to a smaller contract. We are blinded by the concept that he has given up 15 million so he would not ask for anything less. However, he has already opted out and hopefully with no teams interested in him (initially), we will be able to lowball him to a much managable contract. I think people who think he should stay due to inferior SF market will be happy with this.

However, if some team is stupid enough to offer him a big and long contract and do not want a S&T, I think the management will be more than happy to save the money. It may open up chances for Hairston/Gee/LLE FA to shine.

One way or another, we are not gonna be a favourite for the championship anyway but its about making the best outta the situation

[Rappin' Pop]

Rappin' Pop commenting on RJ decision, rap style.

Some of you hoes really need a damn life.
Posting on Spurstalk about this, never had sex with your poor wife.
Seriously, Stephen Graham for the starting job?
Man, you must never had experienced a $250 handjob.
We are re-signing this nigga, no way anyone is gonna convince me.
Malik Hairston can only take Peja Stojakovic's spot on the New Orleans Bees.
Who the fuck are you fools to tell us how to handle our cash?
You got no life, you never had experienced a birthday bash.
Without Jefferson, we will never get over the championship hump.
I swear my real username does not go by the name of BUMP.
You guys are cross-eyed, thinking about Dorell Wright.
Me sittng here drinking my wine, watching the buttholes get tight.
At least we didn't have Eddy "Fatass" Curry being a bum.
In several years, I am guessing objective will still never cum.

So, objective, tell me how does my ass taste?

[MaNu4Tres]

But most of what I'm finding is "LOL @ Hairston and LLE!" and "RJ shot 3s pretty good for a garbage Milwaukee team!" and "If Pop and RC think he's worth it, then he's worth it".

Post #41:

Both of those points were small, yet important reasons why Spurs would consider resigning Jefferson, a big part of it is the scenario that is playing out.

NJ is reportedly not interested in RJ. That takes away from a sign and trade situation.

NY doesn't make any sense either; which takes another possible sign and trade situation which was elaborated here:


Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres View Post

I don't understand why the Knicks would want Jefferson.

They have two intriguing prospects at small forward in Gallinari and Chandler.

Jefferson is not good enough to spend 8-9 million a year, when they have Gallinari and Chandler there for a fraction of the price. That is bad basketball economics to add significant salary to an already set position.

Only way they'd sign a small forward is if it was LeBron. IMO

I'm willing to bet Jefferson sticks with SA.


Which leaves this left for R.J or any potential sign and trade situations:


Originally Posted by Mel_13 View Post

Teams that still have enough cap space to offer RJ a contract larger than the MLE (assuming all reported trades and signings go through):

Miami
Chicago
Washington
Clippers
Sacramento

I don't see a match. While crazy money is flowing all over the NBA, RJ and his agent may have badly misjudged the market for his services.

Spurs should be patient, keep a reasonable short-term deal on the table (3/24) and see if a market develops for RJ.


Given this scenario that is transpiring, Jefferson finding a home outside of San Antonio is less likely unless it's for the MLE, which would kill just about all sign and trade scenarios. ( Which would leave the Spurs with the LLE to fill the huge gap at SF).

But lets just say NJ and NY all wanted him and gave the Spurs a trade exception for your sake(or agreed to a sign and trade). If that scenario were to play out, the Spurs still wouldn't be getting anything guaranteed in return via trade exception:


Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres View Post



For your dream scenario to play out:

You have to go through each of these steps to logically think about this scenario.

1) You got to find a team willing to sign Jefferson. Meaning they have to have a hole to fill at the SF position and have the cap space to sign him. Or they must have a player of less ability that they are willing to part with in a sign and trade ( meaning Spurs aren't the real winners in a player for player sign and trade swap).

2)This team must have a player that they are willing to part with, and that fits the Spurs better than R.J. and that would be more productive being the 4th option.

3) If there is a trade exception being sent to the Spurs ( instead of a player), what are realistic possibilities for such a move on both sides? * In case you didn't know- there's only a handful of scenarios that actually make some sense on both sides*

You have to go through all these three steps and find matches in every aspect. That my friend is a long-shot and that is why the Spurs are interested in resigning Jefferson because he is the best-most realistic option.

Spurs would be fools to let Jefferson walk, in hopes of finding such a dream scenario where the Spurs net a better piece.

The reality is Spurs are better off with Jefferson instead of having to live with a player for the LLE and 7-9 million per year for him isn't bad value. Especially considering what players are getting paid right now (Spurs also just paid Mason/Finley and Bogans 9 million total) and especially considering he's proven to be a reliable three point shooter for more than half of his career. Rumors are Pop is working with him; he must obviously think RJ has the potential to regain his footing in this aspect; which makes me even more optimistic about resigning him. All of these factors, factor into my reasons why I believe Jefferson should be in the Spurs best interest. It's a better option than James Jones at the LLE. ( Worse case scenario; If things don't pan out in 2 years after Duncan retires; his salary and contract will be respectable enough to move more easily than it was before.

Post #48

So now we are comparing Mason, Bogans and Bonner to Jefferson?

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Mason, Bogans and Bonner have proved to be one dimensional players at best and all have a relative low ceiling.

Jefferson on the other hand is the polar opposite, in which he has proven to be a mult-dimensional player that has a high ceiling. Unfortunately, Jefferson had a bad year compared to his previous years where he was one of the best small forwards in the league. Same can't be said for your wishful analogy. Which is why Spurs probably believe that talented arsenal of Jefferson's is worth another look, compared to the inferior alternative. Especially after an off-season under the tutelage of one of the best coaches the game has ever had.

This is just another reason why the Spurs obviously think 7-9 million a year is worth the gamble, given his track record.


All of these reasons in the past 2 pages are why Jefferson is the best option for the Spurs. Rather than passing on Jefferson and acquiring a has-been piece for the LLE with a very low ceiling.

Spurs are trying to win a championship, and the higher the ceiling the better the chances are for the Spurs.

And it seems like Pop and R.C are thinking that way as well.



I'm on these threads looking for well-reasoned responses to those concerns, or at least other issues that even the playing field.

:lol

[objective]

rhyming job with job?

You couldn't even work in something about an alley-oop to RJ with the lob?

:lol

[objective]

Post #41:

none of this addresses anything I've put forward. I've posted nothing about banking on a trade. It would be nice. But unlikely, and un-related to how Jefferson performed in 09-10. How does any of the trade talk business relate to the points I made in post 29 of this thread? It doesn't.

[QUOTE]especially considering he's proven to be a reliable three point shooter for more than half of his career.

"RJ shot 3s pretty good for a garbage Milwaukee team!"


Rumors are Pop is working with him; he must obviously think RJ has the potential to regain his footing in this aspect; which makes me even more optimistic about resigning him.

"If Pop and RC think he's worth it, then he's worth it".


It's a better option than James Jones at the LLE.

"LOL @ Hairston and LLE!"


This is just another reason why the Spurs obviously think 7-9 million a year is worth the gamble, given his track record.


"If Pop and RC think he's worth it, then he's worth it".


All of these reasons in the past 2 pages are why Jefferson is the best option for the Spurs. Rather than passing on Jefferson and acquiring a has-been piece for the LLE with a very low ceiling.

"LOL @ Hairston and LLE!"


And it seems like Pop and R.C are thinking that way as well.

"If Pop and RC think he's worth it, then he's worth it".

------------------

Isn't there anything else? Like maybe RJ did a really good job defending ________ and wasn't recognized enough for it. Defending ________ is key to beating _______ in the playoffs. Or maybe RJ's FTA were _______ in x-quarters and were an unseen gem in the flow of game during the x-quarter.

Or that RJ is working to lose weight, or gain muscle, or secretly had plantar fasciitis, or something?

[MaNu4Tres]

Logical reasons for trying someone else instead of Jefferson :

1. He didn't shoot threes. In the last 3 months of last year. Yes. Fact : He's proven to be a reliable threat in previous seasons( Not just the one in Milwaukee).

2. He didn't defend well. (Compared to Bruce? Of course; compared to any one else outside of Manu on team on the wing last year? I disagree)

3. He wasn't a consistent member of the Spurs closing squad in crunchtime, and there's no reason to think he will be next season. (False; he was a crunch time player in more games than not by a wide wide margin)

4. He often could be described as playing soft or as not hustling. (Total Opinion; not a fact); these aspects progressed in a positive way after the All-Star Break)

5. He's 30 and declining athletically. (Opinion; nothing about his game proved this to be true.) Ginobili is still just as athletic at 33 (soon to be) as he was at 30. IMO

6. He rocked out to 9 points a game in the playoffs. ( Irrelevant with the amount shots available for him and he still was instrumental in the Game 2,4 victories against Dallas and played really well in games 2 and 4 against Phx) )

7. He was benched for a stretch of games and only brought back as a starter after Parker's injury. ( He still averaged the same amount of minutes, he was demoted to the bench to level out the bench and to play with Manu.)

8. If he performed like that in his contract year, imagine him with job security. ( It wasn't his contract year essentially, this next year was going to be his contract year.) Job security was never a problem when he received his first big contract from New Jersey; no reason to think it will be a problem now).

9. Failed miserably when counted on to be the defensive stopper at the beginning of the season, causing Pop to unleash the Centerpiece. ( He was never a premiere Bowen-clone to begin with; therefore your obvious expectations were very far off.)

10. He often won't even be the 4th option on the floor in line-ups with TD-Manu-TP, that will be Hill or Splitter. (Doesn't mean he isn't the best option available at the SF position.)

Logical reasons for paying Jefferson a lot of money in a multi-year deal:



In Bold

[wut]

.
.
.


5. Anthony Morrow
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/4527.jpg
While Miller and Korver are outstanding shooters, Anthony Morrow might be the best shooter in the entire NBA. In his rookie season, Morrow knocked down 46.7% of his three-pointers. Last year, he proved it wasn't beginner's luck by shooting 45.6% on his long distance looks. The 24-year-old was undrafted out of Georgia Tech but he has consistently produced in both of his seasons, which makes him a reasonably safe target. That said, having played in Golden State, Morrow's defense is a question mark. There's also not much info regarding how he performs under pressure or how he meshes in a winning atmosphere. But then again, with the way he shoots, signing Morrow could very well be worth any perceived risks.



Not that I think even Golden State is stupid enough to allow him to leave....this is by far the best SF option out there. Like it or not we're rebuilding, so it makes a ton of sense to grab young guys like Morrow to lead the way for a good nucleus for the future. Imagine Hill, Blair, Splitter, Morrow on the team with Parker, Manu and Duncan's contracts coming off the books....that would be a bright future.

Morrow broke the summer league record with 47 points(not that it means a whole lot), scored 37 points in his first start, scored 33 on the Mavs, the guy is a PURE shooter, like Ray Allen, Steve Kerr type of pure shooter.

But like I said.... it would take the likes of the TWolves, Knicks or Clippers to give that away; Golden State wouldn't be so stupid or go so cheaply.

Btw if he replaced RJ.... are we really going to question the man's defense, it's not like we are losing anything in that aspect. :lol

[spursbird]

Bad defence, no other ability besides shooting. May become the next Mason in Spurs

Not that I think even Golden State is stupid enough to allow him to leave....this is by far the best SF option out there. Like it or not we're rebuilding, so it makes a ton of sense to grab young guys like Morrow to lead the way for a good nucleus for the future. Imagine Hill, Blair, Splitter, Morrow on the team with Parker, Manu and Duncan's contracts coming off the books....that would be a bright future.

Morrow broke the summer league record with 47 points(not that it means a whole lot), scored 37 points in his first start, scored 33 on the Mavs, the guy is a PURE shooter, like Ray Allen, Steve Kerr type of pure shooter.

But like I said.... it would take the likes of the TWolves, Knicks or Clippers to give that away; Golden State wouldn't be so stupid or go so cheaply.

Btw if he replaced RJ.... are we really going to question the man's defense, it's not like we are losing anything in that aspect. :lol

[objective]

well, thanks for addressing them instead of bashing about with regards to the FO being perfect.


In the last 3 months of last year. Yes. Fact : He's proven to be a reliable threat in previous seasons( Not just the one in Milwaukee).

How many postseasons in his career was a reliable 3-point threat?


(Compared to Bruce? Of course; compared to any one else outside of Manu on team on the wing last year? I disagree)

We disagree tremendously. I'd count on Manu, Hill, and Bogans to defend someone before RJ, and I don't even like Bogans. And Hairston wouldn't be far behind.


(False; he was a crunch time player in more games than not by a wide wide margin)

Check the playoff play-by-plays. Playoffs are what matter. There, he was only in the crunch about 50% of the time unless I totally misread the pages at nba.com, in which case I need to be corrected.


(Total Opinion; not a fact); these aspects progressed in a positive way after the All-Star Break)

they got better but not enough to scream that he must be kept. Only my opinion of course. But I'll take a limited player who hustles his ass off and plays with passion over an underachiever. Those characterizations could be wrong, but it is what it is. And I think the majority of informed Spurs fans would agree that so far as a Spur, RJ has underachieved.


(Opinion; nothing about his game proved this to be true.) Ginobili is still just as athletic at 33 (soon to be) as he was at 30. IMO

There is zero doubt in my mind that RJ is not the same athletically as he was earlier in his career, and more broadly it's common if not expected for players to decline after so many years. Ginobili also. Ginobili's game isn't as wrapped up in his athleticism as RJ's though. We'll disagree.


( Irrelevant with the amount shots available for him and he still was instrumental in the Game 2,4 victories against Dallas and played really well in games 2 and 4 against Phx) )

if the SF like Jefferson is kept to an irrelevant # of shots, then how is that a mark against an LLE scrub? If Jefferson's offensive opportunities in the offense result in irrelevant points, that seems like it wouldn't be too hard to replace imo.

You tout his performances in 4 of 10 playoff games. The one game that really stands out is the 2nd against Dallas, where he had a great first half if I remember right and was something unlikely to be replicated by an LLE scrub. The last of those instrumental games he was benched in the last 3:30 of a winnable game. If he didn't have 'instrumental' performances in 6 of 10 games then how valuable can he be? Even throwing out the Dallas game that Pop quickly tanked, more than half the time he wasn't a big factor in the Spurs advantage. And Parker and Hill were still recovering from their injuries, if they are healthy in the next playoffs maybe there will be less need for RJ's occasional outbursts.


( He still averaged the same amount of minutes, he was demoted to the bench to level out the bench and to play with Manu.)

You don't think he was demoted to the bench because of poor play? We'll disagree.


( It wasn't his contract year essentially, this next year was going to be his contract year.) Job security was never a problem when he received his first big contract from New Jersey; no reason to think it will be a problem now).

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure he and/or his agent spoke publicly about the possibiltiy of opting out before the playoffs, if not well before. That would mean he certainly knew that would make it a contract year.


( He was never a premiere Bowen-clone to begin with; therefore your obvious expectations were very far off.)

Those weren't my expectations, and he wasn't supposed to be as good as Bowen. But they were Pop's and the Spurs expectations. The quotes from Pop and co. from the summer-pre-season are out there.


(Doesn't mean he isn't the best option available at the SF position.)

But if he's not needed for his scoring (not proven as good in the system as Hill, possibly behind Splitter), and he's not playing for his defense (you at least concede that he's behind Manu for wings), then what is he needed for? He can't even be counted on to be the clutch designated free-throw shooter to lock games up. He had a couple of postseasons where he was really good and one of those was remarkable but not recently.

anyways, good discussion

[Xevious]

I think we're fucked if RJ doesn't come back. With a year under his belt in the Spurs' system, and a more realistic contract, maybe they can make it work. Going out and filling a starting position with the LLE, or plugging it with a D-League project is not a recipe for contention. RJ was a huge disappointment, yes. But there were far greater problems last season than him.

[bus driver]

lets get rid of jefferson, no balls mason and whoever the fuck (not named, manu, tim or parker) we have to get ACTION JACKSON back!

[Xevious]

lets get rid of jefferson, no balls mason and whoever the fuck (not named, manu, tim or parker) we have to get ACTION JACKSON back!
What do you suggest we trade for him with?

[Lebowski Brickowski]

Devin Brown got fat.

[My Fault]

Guess its time to fired RC. Obviously we have better GMs on this board. What's wrong with him? We have D-Leaguers that could easliy fill that SF spot and still win it all.

[Sigz]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/4694.jpg

Went to high school in Wisconsin with this guy.

[Whisky Dog]

I would rather have Tony Allen for his defense at a cheaper cost with no long term commitment than Jefferson's choking ass making 8 mil per or more. He's simply not worth half that amount as at this stage of his career he doesn't do anything greatly and he disappears when it counts the most. Also, he already has a mental block about playing in this system so I see no reason why that would get better.

Give me a guy who can defend the perimeter.

[Whisky Dog]

Now that New Orleans is in need of a shooter, what about a sign and trade of Mason for Julian Wright? Anyone for or against it?

Wait, I thought you said they need a shooter?

[Solid D]

timvp, this is an excellent and useful list! I know how much time it takes to put something together like this. While the rankings can be debated, I think over-all, it is a complete view of the market.

Who knows what the Spurs are scheming, here?

[Spurminator]

I'd be pretty happy with any of the top 6. Good write up. :tu

[timvp]

LJ, where do you rate Dick in this top 30?

Good question. As has been pointed out, RJ not being able to shoot or defend at an above average level makes him a pretty damn bad fit. That said, we already know he's a good fit in the locker room and has a lot of playoff experience ... so I couldn't drop him out of the top six players on the list. Very well could be three or four. But RJ ranking that high has more to do with a weak FA crop than him being a fit.

The again, if RJ's asking price is really $9-10 million over four or five years ... I could point out ten other options that I'd rather the Spurs go with.

[lurker23]

Good list, timvp. Quasi-realistically, my top choice is Korver. More realistically, an LLE signing of Rasual Butler would be very nice. Most realistically, I think the Spurs SF will be someone not on this list- either Richard Jefferson, or a player already signed to an NBA squad, acquired via a TE.

[timvp]

Logical reasons for trying someone else instead of Jefferson :

1. He didn't shoot threes.

2. He didn't defend well.

3. He wasn't a consistent member of the Spurs closing squad in crunchtime, and there's no reason to think he will be next season.

4. He often could be described as playing soft or as not hustling.

5. He's 30 and declining athletically.

6. He rocked out to 9 points a game in the playoffs.

7. He was benched for a stretch of games and only brought back as a starter after Parker's injury.

8. If he performed like that in his contract year, imagine him with job security.

9. Failed miserably when counted on to be the defensive stopper at the beginning of the season, causing Pop to unleash the Centerpiece.

10. He often won't even be the 4th option on the floor in line-ups with TD-Manu-TP, that will be Hill or Splitter.

Logical reasons for paying Jefferson a lot of money in a multi-year deal:

:huh

Well . . . I guess . . . uh . . . we don't know if Hairston/Gee/LLE scrub can fail to the tune of 9 ppg and not play in crunchtime while standing around inside the 3-point line.

Classic objective post :tu

Giving RJ $10 million per is difficult when it's quite possible that he'll be the team's sixth scoring option (behind the Big 3, Hill and Splitter). If James Anderson pans out, RJ could be the seventh option.

$10 million per season for a seventh option whose main strength is being a scoring option? Uh ...... thinking about it like that, it'd be really hard to agree with shelling out the money to RJ.

[Ice009]

How did the Spurs not know about Wes Matthews?

When I first saw him play and heard that he was not drafted and was also from San Antonio I was amazed he wasn't on the Spurs summer league team at least.

[Mel_13]

How did the Spurs not know about Wes Matthews?

When I first saw him play and heard that he was not drafted and was also from San Antonio I was amazed he wasn't on the Spurs summer league team at least.

Born in San Antonio, from Wisconsin.

[pad300]

I would rather have Tony Allen for his defense at a cheaper cost with no long term commitment than Jefferson's choking ass making 8 mil per or more. He's simply not worth half that amount as at this stage of his career he doesn't do anything greatly and he disappears when it counts the most. Also, he already has a mental block about playing in this system so I see no reason why that would get better.

Give me a guy who can defend the perimeter.

Of the pure defenders, I'd probably take Mcguire rather than Allen. Mcguire is a better fit for our size needs - he's 6'9" (vs 6'4"), our biggest problem is guarding bigger 3's. I'd rate them equally defensively. Also Mcguire is much more likely to be affordable - Allen is coming off a valueable role in a NBA finals; someone should give him some cash.

And if we are going to play small ball (No, I don't think Pop is going to give up the concept), Mcguire would be the best small-ball pf on the roster; Allen wouldn't.

[PDXSpursFan]

Let's be realistic - Spurs will use MLE for Splitter. So our options at SF are limited to LLE. Looking at the list, this is what I like (in that order):

1) Barnes
2) Kleiza
2) McGrady

[Mr Bones]

:lol For the past year, Spurstalk has featured relentless nonstop fag jokes about Richard Jefferson-- and now it features a bunch of guys posting about how they don't want him to leave, he's the best option available, we're screwed if he doesn't stay, please don't go Richard, you'd be a fool to leave... Ironic, no?

What's that word so many here love to use... oh yeah-- Butthurt.

[ohmwrecker]

Nice list, Timvp. Appreciate the work. Just want to re-categorize a little.

FAs the Spurs have virtually no shot at signing:
1. Mike Miller - will get signed by a good team, probably Lakers
2. Josh Childress - Hawks will probably use his rights in a deal
3. Kyle Korver - more than likely to stay with Jazz
4. Travis Outlaw - best player available, in my opinion
5. Ryan Gomes - somebody is going to overpay this kid

FAs out of the Spurs range who might fly under the radar:
1. Wesley Matthews - interesting, big potential
2. Linas Kleiza - does he want to come back?
3. Ronnie Brewer - great back-up option

Out of range AND do not want:
1. Josh Howard - too many issues, former Mav.

FAs the Spurs would be lucky to get for the LLE:
1. Matt Barnes - made big improvements, still not a very good shooter
2. Dorell Wright - nice athlete, he and GHill can trade penis pics
3. Rasual Butler - my 2nd choice after Outlaw
4. Tony Allen - best defender option, can't shoot
5. James Jones - best shooter, can't defend

No, thank you:
1. Quentin Richardson - attitude
2. Bobby Simmons - always injured
3. Tracy McGrady - old, broken
4. Jarvis Hayes - soft
5. Bostjan Nachbar - Turkish turkey
6. Rodney Carney - talented, but can't stick on a bad team
7. Stephen Graham - not special in any way
8. Devin Brown - been there done that
9. Keith Bogans - (see Devin Brown)
10. Joey Graham - (see Stephen Graham)

Dark Horses:
1. Pete Mickeal - I defer to Timvp
2. Alan Anderson - ditto
3. Antoine Wright - not bad back-up
4. Dominic McGuire - ditto
5. Damien Wilkins - Hmmmmmm . . . .

[Mark in Austin]

I wasn't sold on Korver at first, but any player who is coached by Jerry Sloan for multiple years and doesn't wind up in his doghouse can't be all THAT bad...

Would also love to see what Morrow or Miller could do in the SA offense. Maybe RC can convince Nellie that RJ is just the kind of veteran his team needs for leadership...

[lurker23]

FAs the Spurs have virtually no shot at signing:
3. Kyle Korver - more than likely to stay with Jazz


I agree that Korver is a real long-shot, but not for the reason you state.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700044803/Other-teams-like-Jazzs-Matthews.html?pg=2

"The Jazz contacted Korver's camp Thursday and haven't ruled out re-signing him, but for now, chances of that happening seem remote."

[Mr Bones]

I still find it hard to believe that many here agree that McGuire is one of the top defenders on this list and might be the best defender of the group, but still don't want him. I say grab him for a minimum contract. He won't start, but he can help and will be cheap. The Suns were #1 in the NBA in 3 pt% this season, and lacking in D. The Lakers were 24th in 3pt%, and extremely long and strong on D. Tony Allen is an offensive liability too, and he contributed nicely for the Celts, who by the way, were 17th in 3 pt%. Put Allen on a mediocre team and he's worthless. On Boston, he helps. The Spurs were ranked 11th in 3 pt%. They're already better from outside than the two teams that played for the championship. I still say the their main weakness is defense, not outside shooting.

[ohmwrecker]

:lol For the past year, Spurstalk has featured relentless nonstop fag jokes about Richard Jefferson-- and now it features a bunch of guys posting about how they don't want him to leave, he's the best option available, we're screwed if he doesn't stay, please don't go Richard, you'd be a fool to leave... Ironic, no?

What's that word so many here love to use... oh yeah-- Butthurt.

For the record, I've never made one gay joke about RJ, have always been quick to come to his defense, generally sympathize with his situation last year and honestly hope he makes the necessary adjustments and improvements and stays with the Spurs.
While it is true that the Spurs have very little options, it's also true that RJ has skills that we didn't see the full potential of last year. I really don't see how he cannot improve next season.

[ohmwrecker]

I agree that Korver is a real long-shot, but not for the reason you state.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700044803/Other-teams-like-Jazzs-Matthews.html?pg=2

"The Jazz contacted Korver's camp Thursday and haven't ruled out re-signing him, but for now, chances of that happening seem remote."

I think that was wishful thinking on my part that Matthews would be more available than Korver.

[Mr Bones]

For the record, I've never made one gay joke about RJ, have always been quick to come to his defense, generally sympathize with his situation last year and honestly hope he makes the necessary adjustments and improvements and stays with the Spurs.
While it is true that the Spurs have very little options, it's also true that RJ has skills that we didn't see the full potential of last year. I really don't see how he cannot improve next season.

Cool. I agree. The nonstop slew of childish and knotheaded jokes really was annoying and one of the main reasons I stopped visiting Spurstalk as much as I used to. I don't think this site would put up with 50 racist jokes a day or people using the N word to criticize players they don't like. I don't know why the other stuff was tolerated. If people logged on to spurstalk everyday and were greeted by a dozen "Jefferson is a stupid ######" comments, there would very justifiedly be an uproar. it should've been the same with the fag jokes.

[objective]

Classic objective post :tu

Giving RJ $10 million per is difficult when it's quite possible that he'll be the team's sixth scoring option (behind the Big 3, Hill and Splitter). If James Anderson pans out, RJ could be the seventh option.

$10 million per season for a seventh option whose main strength is being a scoring option? Uh ...... thinking about it like that, it'd be really hard to agree with shelling out the money to RJ.

True, if Anderson can be a legit shooter he could surpass Jefferson as well. And if Anderson can be an average defender he could surpass Jefferson there as well. Hell, even Blair could surpass Jefferson as a scoring option if he improves his his offense with some range on a jumper and improves around the rim. He already can score working the two-man game with Manu.

If anything, I would want to see what Anderson, Hairston, Gee, LLE can do.

Hairston outplayed Bogans most everytime I saw him. He hasn't proven he can shoot 3s as a Spur but neither has RJ.

And who knows, the alternative to Jefferson could be better. Maybe not a better player on paper, but a better fit on the court. George Hill couldn't get a chance with Jacque Vaughn around. Stephen Jackson wasn't getting a chance with a healthy Steve Smith and Terry Porter around.

Sometimes, just sometimes, the young/unproven player proves better than the known underachiever.

[Blackjack]

Of the pure defenders, I'd probably take Mcguire rather than Allen. Mcguire is a better fit for our size needs - he's 6'9" (vs 6'4"), our biggest problem is guarding bigger 3's. I'd rate them equally defensively. Also Mcguire is much more likely to be affordable - Allen is coming off a valueable role in a NBA finals; someone should give him some cash.

And if we are going to play small ball (No, I don't think Pop is going to give up the concept), Mcguire would be the best small-ball pf on the roster; Allen wouldn't.


I still find it hard to believe that many here agree that McGuire is one of the top defenders on this list and might be the best defender of the group, but still don't want him. I say grab him for a minimum contract. He won't start, but he can help and will be cheap. The Suns were #1 in the NBA in 3 pt% this season, and lacking in D. The Lakers were 24th in 3pt%, and extremely long and strong on D. Tony Allen is an offensive liability too, and he contributed nicely for the Celts, who by the way, were 17th in 3 pt%. Put Allen on a mediocre team and he's worthless. On Boston, he helps. The Spurs were ranked 11th in 3 pt%. They're already better from outside than the two teams that played for the championship. I still say the their main weakness is defense, not outside shooting.

The McGuire bandwagon has been rather lonely the last few years, nice to have some company.

We gots plenty of room!

http://www.saltcityhoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/empty_bandwagon.jpg

[The Truth #6]

Timvp,

Nice tidbit about Mathews being from San Antonio. But if not mistaken, he's not the only player on your list whose father played for the Spurs. If I remember correctly, Brewer's dad also played for the Spurs and was involved in the trade to get Mike Mitchell from Cleveland.

[Blackjack]

You're right, Truth. His father, Ron, was a Spur back in the day and the Spurs had interest in moving up to acquire Ronnie when he was drafted -- not that there haven't been plenty of other players that they tried to move up and draft.

Link (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Ron_Brewer)

[Booharv]

14. Tony Allen
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/basketball/nba/players/3842.jpg
When it comes to defense, there's not a player on this list better out on the perimeter than Tony Allen. He's definitely a lockdown one-on-one defender. His offense, though, really makes it questionable whether he could fit on the Spurs. He has no outside jumper to speak of and his shot selection is very iffy. He rebounds well, handles the ball well, can pass ... but his shooting (or lack of) just can't be ignored.


The op is a great post overall, but this part is flat out wrong. Tony Allen has a very weak handle, and annually posts some of the worst turnover ratios of a perimeter player in the league. Mainly its due to his high dribble. I can't remember who said this but I think it was a Boston reporter "The Celtics periodically talk of playing Allen at the point which is a comical proposition, because most point guards keep the ball below their forehead when they dribble."

[clubalien]

Let's be realistic - Spurs will use MLE for Splitter. So our options at SF are limited to LLE. Looking at the list, this is what I like (in that order):

1) Barnes
2) Kleiza
2) McGrady
NBA career achievements

* 2× NBA scoring leader: 2003 (32.1), 2004 (28.0)
* 7× NBA All-Star: 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007
* 7× All-NBA:

* First Team: 2002, 2003
* Second Team: 2001, 2004, 2007
* Third Team: 2005, 2008

* NBA Most Improved Player Award: 2001

[edit] Orlando Magic franchise records

* All-Time Free Throws Made (1,819)
* Most points in one game with 62 (March 10, 2004 vs. Washington Wizards)
* Most points in one half with 37 in the first half (March 9, 2003 vs. Denver Nuggets)
* Most points in one quarter with 25 in the second quarter (March 9, 2003 vs. Denver Nuggets)
* Most free throws made in one game with 18 (December 25, 2002 vs. Detroit Pistons)
* Most points in a playoff game with 46 (in Game 2 of the 2003 Eastern Conference playoffs, First Round vs. Detroit Pistons)
* Most three-point field goals made in one half with 8 (January 26, 2004 vs. Cleveland Cavaliers)

[edit] Career achievements

* Career 40+ point games (regular season): 45
* Career 50+ point games (regular season): 4
* Career 60+ point games (regular season): 1
* Career triple-doubles (regular season): 4
* Shares NBA record for most three-point field goals made in one half with 8 (January 26, 2004 Orlando vs. Cleveland)


sounds better than Rj to me

[objective]

Brewer might slip into LLE territory because of his torn hamstring and no-bird rights after MEM declined his QO of only 3.7 million.

He's a bad fit offensively because he's a revolting 3-point non-shooter and the rest of his offensive game isn't that great but relies on athleticism (who does that sound like?)

As written in this Memphis Flyer article (http://www.memphisflyer.com/BeyondtheArc/archives/2010/06/30/making-sense-of-the-ronnie-brewer-decision):


Brewer had proven to be a useful rotation player in Utah, but that was in one of the league's most distinctive systems and one especially attuned to Brewer's strengths (athleticism, movement off the ball) and weaknesses (shooting, ball-handling).

In Utah's motion offense, Brewer was able to get his points on cuts away from the ball. Memphis runs more isolation and pick-and-roll style offenses and even though Brewer played only 80 minutes for the Grizzlies last season — and very little of that in optimum condition — it was apparent that he was not an easy fit.

Not adept enough with the ball to create consistently and with too shaky a jumpshot to spot up off the ball, Brewer looked lost with the Grizzlies. Compounding these questions, the team added a couple of similarly sized perimeter players in the draft in Henry and Greivis Vasquez to go with returning rookies Sam Young and DeMarre Carroll. With Mayo and a presumably returning Gay slotted for 35+ minutes each on the perimeter, it was hard to see how all the pieces fit together. The addition of Henry in particular raised questions about Brewer's potential role: Henry plays the same two positions while providing the outside shooting the team desperately needed.

So we have a situation where it seems highly unlikely that his old team will keep him because of salary concerns and 1st round picks to take his role. A Free Agent period where only two players have changed teams and neither was coming off injury and only one got the full MLE.

And if he recovers fully from his injury he'll be an athletic 25 year old 6-7 player who has a lot of playing experience under a hardcore disciplined coach and 223 career starts (plus 17 starts in the playoffs).

That's not bad for the LLE.

[PDXSpursFan]

IMO, Brewer would struggle more than RJ here in SA.

[DPG21920]

You can't tell me that Wright, if he continues his 3pt shooting would not make the team better in place of RJ? Much better fit and defender at a fraction of the cost.

[Booharv]

One more area where this OP is a little deficient is that it ignore Miller's annoying tendency to try and be a point forward that all three of his recent coaches have complained about. Here's a post with three articles linked that talk that are dedicated to his overpassing. The last article from Sports Illustrated even calls the tendency for a scorer to pass the ball way too much, especially when his team needs him to score, the "Mike Miller syndrome". So if the Spurs sign Miller just expect to be frustrated when he passes up open shots and turns over the ball a lot. Tbh he's still good because of his shooting, but a little more research shows that he's driven his last three coaches crazy with this extreme overpassing.


Miller's a great shooter, but everyone knows about his annoying attempt to be a point forward the last few years, right? All 3 of his coaches in the last two years have complained about it, and there have been a bunch of articles (I linked 3 here) talking about it.

Randy Wittman:""We have to get Mike more than four shots, there's no question about that," coach Randy Wittman said. "And Mike's got to work to get more than four shots. Sometimes you get into turning down shots to make the extra pass. Mike does all the right things. at times, he has to be a little selfish, too.""

http://www.startribune.com/sports/wolves/34712824.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD 3aPc:_Yyc:aUUF

Kevin McHale:""We definitely want Mike shooting [more],"

http://www.startribune.com/sports/wolves/41186012.html?elr=KArksi8cyaiUo8cyaiUiD3aPc:_Yyc:a ULPQL7PQLanchO7DiUr

Flip Saunders: "[B]Asked about it, Washington coach Flip Saunders sighs. "We try to get him to shoot, and he tries to come out looking for it," he says, "but if someone's open, he passes the ball.""

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1167412/2/index.htm

Dwane Casey, Flip Saunders and Kevin McHale have complained about this. In LA he really needs to get back to his bread and butter and stop trying to be Larry Bird. His turnover ratio has ballooned the last two years with his attempts to be a playmaker (19.1 and 19.6).

[objective]

IMO, Brewer would struggle more than RJ here in SA.

Offensively I agree. His playoff career high is only 16, so he would be unlikely to have a big half like RJ did every score of days.

But if was available for the LLE then he would be only 20-25% of the price per year. And reasonable defense early in his athletic prime if he recovers fully from the hamstring tear.

[Agloco]

NBA career achievements

* 2× NBA scoring leader: 2003 (32.1), 2004 (28.0)
* 7× NBA All-Star: 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007
* 7× All-NBA:

* First Team: 2002, 2003
* Second Team: 2001, 2004, 2007
* Third Team: 2005, 2008

* NBA Most Improved Player Award: 2001

[edit] Orlando Magic franchise records

* All-Time Free Throws Made (1,819)
* Most points in one game with 62 (March 10, 2004 vs. Washington Wizards)
* Most points in one half with 37 in the first half (March 9, 2003 vs. Denver Nuggets)
* Most points in one quarter with 25 in the second quarter (March 9, 2003 vs. Denver Nuggets)
* Most free throws made in one game with 18 (December 25, 2002 vs. Detroit Pistons)
* Most points in a playoff game with 46 (in Game 2 of the 2003 Eastern Conference playoffs, First Round vs. Detroit Pistons)
* Most three-point field goals made in one half with 8 (January 26, 2004 vs. Cleveland Cavaliers)

[edit] Career achievements

* Career 40+ point games (regular season): 45
* Career 50+ point games (regular season): 4
* Career 60+ point games (regular season): 1
* Career triple-doubles (regular season): 4
* Shares NBA record for most three-point field goals made in one half with 8 (January 26, 2004 Orlando vs. Cleveland)


sounds better than Rj to me

Sure.........lemme grab a list of Michael Jordan's achievements and make my case for signing him up too. :rolleyes

[Fabbs]

Uh afraid to tell you, but there are times where you have play small ball.
What do you think about bringing Mike Finley back in?

[clubalien]

Sure.........lemme grab a list of Michael Jordan's achievements and make my case for signing him up too. :rolleyes

MJ with a flu in his day > RJ at his peak

[PublicOption]

I like tony allen.

[pad300]

Courtesy of some analysis at
http://dberri.wordpress.com/2010/07/01/the-2010-nba-free-agent-cheat-sheet/

I have indicated in BOLD the players that stick out from this analysis.

1. Mike Miller
Last years WP/48 0.219 Average of Last 3 years WP/48 0.218
2. Josh Childress
N/A (all this is from NBA data only, Childress has been overseas) 0.197
3. Wesley Matthews
0.063 0.063
4. Kyle Korver
0.109 0.057
5. Anthony Morrow
0.084 0.093
6. Travis Outlaw
-0.026 0.023
7. Linas Kleiza
N/A (see Childress) 0.03
8. Josh Howard
-0.058 0.085
9. Ronnie Brewer
0.083 0.149
10. Ryan Gomes
(no Data in Sheet)
11. Matt Barnes
0.188 0.146
12. Dorell Wright
0.167 0.17
13. Rasual Butler
-0.043 -0.003
14. Tony Allen
0.156 0.088
15. Pete Mickeal
(No Data in Sheet)
16. Quentin Richardson
0.18 0.109
17. James Jones
-0.018 0.022
18. Bobby Simmons
-0.032 0.051
19. Tracy McGrady
0.061 0.083
20. Jarvis Hayes
-0.078 -0.005
21. Bostjan Nachbar
(No Data in sheet)
22. Rodney Carney
0.054 0.028
23. Stephen Graham
0.113 0.048
24. Alan Anderson
(No Data in Sheet)
25. Devin Brown
-0.014 0.031
26. Antoine Wright
-0.05 -0.056
27. Joey Graham
(No data in sheet)
28. Dominic McGuire
-0.016 0.064
29. Keith Bogans
0.007 0.064
30. Damien Wilkins
0.117 0.044
For Reference, Richard Jefferson
0.052 0.043

This work suggests that there is hope to find a significantly better player (and fit of course) using the LLE to replace Jefferson. Strong candidates include Wright, Barnes and Richardson.

[objective]

I'd like Barnes as well.

Even though he's a cancer who burns his bridges and will force shots out of the offense, he plays with intensity and a passion that is a useful thing to have on the Spurs. He has the kind of dirty, confrontational defense that you don't get from Jefferson.

And by cancer, I mean that none of his teams have wanted him back. At the end of the 09 season in PHX a radio host who was there for the season ending postgame and season's end media session reported that Barnes had done so much to wear out his welcome that his name wasn't mentioned once by the powers-that-be or the other players in reference to hopes for the next season. He was the only player to be ignored like that, even Alando Tucker got some respectful words.

He also turned down a large multi-year deal (large for him) from the Warriors, money he still hasn't re-couped and possibly never will.

But . . . he can be a useful defender who can knock down 3s somewhat in the playoffs.

[Kindergarten Cop]

MJ with a flu in his day > RJ at his peak

I think that he was referring more to the current age and durability of the players you are comparing. RJ's lack of production had much more to do with not fitting in our offense than it did with his lack of athleticism IMHO. The absolute opposite would be the case with McGrady.

[timvp]

Timvp,

Nice tidbit about Mathews being from San Antonio. But if not mistaken, he's not the only player on your list whose father played for the Spurs. If I remember correctly, Brewer's dad also played for the Spurs and was involved in the trade to get Mike Mitchell from Cleveland.Yeah, get Matthews, Brewer plus keep Temple and the Spurs can run some father-sons games :lol


The op is a great post overall, but this part is flat out wrong. Tony Allen has a very weak handle, and annually posts some of the worst turnover ratios of a perimeter player in the league. Mainly its due to his high dribble. I can't remember who said this but I think it was a Boston reporter "The Celtics periodically talk of playing Allen at the point which is a comical proposition, because most point guards keep the ball below their forehead when they dribble."Allen has played point guard at time for the Celtics. In my book, any small forward that can play point guard has good handles for a small forward. I'd agree that Allen is a bad ballhandler for a point guard but that turns to an asset when at small forward.

Most of Allen's turnovers are because he makes some of the dumbest decisions on the offensive end. He has bad shot selection, bad pass selection, bad dribbling selection, etc.


You can't tell me that Wright, if he continues his 3pt shooting would not make the team better in place of RJ? Much better fit and defender at a fraction of the cost.The fact that the Spurs wanted Wright back in the 2004 draft makes me think they've kept close tabs on him. If it weren't for his bad rep, his recent arrest and him showing his Dorell on camera, he'd be a very logical and likely target.


One more area where this OP is a little deficient is that it ignore Miller's annoying tendency to try and be a point forward that all three of his recent coaches have complained about. Here's a post with three articles linked that talk that are dedicated to his overpassing. The last article from Sports Illustrated even calls the tendency for a scorer to pass the ball way too much, especially when his team needs him to score, the "Mike Miller syndrome". The difference is other teams needed Miller to be a first or second option. On the Spurs, he'd be a fourth or even fifth option most of the time. With that change in dynamic, Miller not using many possessions goes from a bad thing to a good thing. The last thing the Spurs need is another player who requires a ton of shots.

In theory, Miller could be a bigger, better rebounding, better rebounding and maybe even better shooting version of Brent Barry. Miller is going to pass up shots, like Barry, but the threat of his shot will at the very least keep the space spread.


I'd like Barnes as well.

Even though he's a cancer who burns his bridges and will force shots out of the offense, he plays with intensity and a passion that is a useful thing to have on the Spurs. He has the kind of dirty, confrontational defense that you don't get from Jefferson.

.
.
.

But . . . he can be a useful defender who can knock down 3s somewhat in the playoffs.

Yeah, Barnes for the LLE would be a very good signing. There are legit reasons why his value never seems to rise but he's a realistic cheap stop gap.

[Blackjack]

The fact that the Spurs wanted Wright back in the 2004 draft makes me think they've kept close tabs on him. If it weren't for his bad rep, his recent arrest and him showing his Dorell on camera, he'd be a very logical and likely target.

And if it weren't for that resume he wouldn't be available. :hat

[slick'81]

i wouldnt mind wright or barnes

[Dro210]

I like all those guys as options man... Miller, Wright, Barnes, Matthews... I'd be happy to add any of 'em. That could prove to be pretty difficult to do tho. We'll see I guess.

[Solid D]

Timvp,

Nice tidbit about Mathews being from San Antonio. But if not mistaken, he's not the only player on your list whose father played for the Spurs. If I remember correctly, Brewer's dad also played for the Spurs and was involved in the trade to get Mike Mitchell from Cleveland.

Yeah, Ron was with the Spurs a couple of times. I was at a game at the HemisFair Arena in 1981 and saw Ron go for 40 points. It was one of 2 games of 40+ points over a 3-game stretch while he was starting in place of an injured Iceman. Ron was traded for Mitchell a month later and I always wondered if the Spurs were just showcasing Brewer. For those 3 games, Ron averaged over 30 points. Then, I remember when Ice came back, Gervin went for 40 the very next game.

[HarlemHeat37]

Out of the players on this list + the potential trade rumors in the other thread..a lot of these guys are unrealistic options, but still..

I would be happy with: Mike Miller, Wes Matthews, Dorrell Wright, Batum(just because Portland is involved in that unlikely 3-way rumor), Deng(same as Batum)..

I wouldn't mind: Childress, Korver, Morrow, Kleiza, Matt Barnes(he would be in the middle of "wouldn't mind" and "skeptical"), James Jones(same as Barnes)..

I would be skeptical: Outlaw, Ronnie Brewer, Ryan Gomes, Rasual Butler, Tony Allen(Hairston plays the same way, but would be cheaper, although obviously not as good right now), Q Richardson, Stephen Graham, Devin Brown, Dominic McGuire..

I wouldn't want: Richard Jefferson, Josh Howard, Bobby Simmons, Tracy McGrady, Jarvis Hayes, Rodney Carney, Antoine Wright, Joey Graham, Centerpiece, Damien Wilkins..

[intlspurshk]

Dorrell Wright is the best fit talent wise and is affordable if SPURS acts quickly enough before Heats figure out how to fill their roster. Personality wise he has flaws but he keeps on improving his 3pt shooting while the good personality SPURS player keep on suckng in the playoff (i.e. BONNER) I don't think SPURS can't withstand one player with some personality issues as long as he keeps playing hard on the court with confidence

[TDMVPDPOY]

would marbs/iverson come out and play for us vet minimum?

[pad300]

would marbs/iverson come out and play for us vet minimum?

Why the fuck would we want them to?

[TDMVPDPOY]

Why the fuck would we want them to?

so we can blame them when we tank the season for a no.1 pick

[Kori Ellis]

There's a lot of talk about the Spurs going after Matthews, and everyone thinking he'd be a great fit - if he doesn't stay in Utah. Apparently the Spurs were one of the first to call him when FA began.

[tim_duncan_fan]

There's a lot of talk about the Spurs going after Matthews, and everyone thinking he'd be a great fit - if he doesn't stay in Utah. Apparently the Spurs were one of the first to call him when FA began.

Do we have a legitimate chance at signing him though?

Isn't he a possible up-and-comer who will be looking for some serious cash?

[Solid D]

I was very impressed with Wes' defensive play last year.

[Kori Ellis]

Do we have a legitimate chance at signing him though?

Isn't he a possible up-and-comer who will be looking for some serious cash?

Yeah he's probably going to get close to the whole MLE (or at least half of it) ...so I'm not sure what money the Spurs are spending :lol

[Blackjack]

There's a lot of talk about the Spurs going after Matthews, and everyone thinking he'd be a great fit - if he doesn't stay in Utah. Apparently the Spurs were one of the first to call him when FA began.

It makes sense on a lot of levels. He's definitely a Spurs type and, more importantly, he'd be the perfect Spurs move for a fan base and punditry clamoring for the long small forward.

This is gonna sound pretty bass ackwards, but he could be the Roger Mason of '09, only not in fool's gold fashion -- he's actually got the ability to play both ends and make an impact on the game without being hot from the floor.

This reeks of Spurs . . .

[timvp]

...so I'm not sure what money the Spurs are spending :lol

http://fongbao.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/panic-button.jpg

[Blackjack]

Yeah he's probably going to get close to the whole MLE (or at least half of it) ...so I'm not sure what money the Spurs are spending :lol

Details . . . :lol

I've got a feeling they know they've got to make a trade to get what they need. And the fact that they've been linked to Korver (again), Morrow and a guy like Matthews, that's the only way they could get their hands on them.

[tim_duncan_fan]

I don't know about Matthews guys....he's 6'5"

How many 6'5-6'6s do we need?

I wanna see us get a guy with some length.

Length is a big reason why the Lakers pwn.

[Solid D]

http://fongbao.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/panic-button.jpg

There are only so many Proms left, timvp.

http://static.flickr.com/54/150599120_6a482af1e7_m.jpg

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Nice rundown, LJ. :tu

I would add Carlos Delfino to the list given the possibility that he might be set free.

I would love to see Miller, Childress or Matthews here but can't see how to make it happen. The other guy I am intrigued by is Linas Kleiza - would he be 2004 Turkoglu all over again for us, or might he blossom on the defensive end and nail those corner 3s like they are going out of style? He can board, and he competes - I like the guy.

Lower down the list, I can see us settling for Barnes, Wright, Butler or maybe even an out-of-leftfield guy like James Jones for the minimum.

[Booharv]

Great thread :tu

This is the kind of intelligent basketball discussion we need more of around here.

[timvp]

Damn, how'd I forget to include Raja Bell?

I'm gonna have to figure out where to put him . . . :wakeup

[mingus]

i wouldn't be surprised to see a guy like George Hill get traded for Mathews in a sign and trade, at least in my mind.

i think the Spurs should do it. George turned out not to be the defender Pop thought he could be, and that's what he needed to do. i say trade Hill for Mathews and groom Temple as the back-up PG for next season.

Spurs aren't winning shit w/o a perimter stopper next season. if Manu has to guard Bryant and like he did many times versus the Lakers this year my head is going to explode.

[pad300]

Damn, how'd I forget to include Raja Bell?

I'm gonna have to figure out where to put him . . . :wakeup

Start another thread for SG's. Bell is an SG through and through. By the same logic, I'm surprised you included Mathews...

[K-State Spur]

i wouldn't be surprised to see a guy like George Hill get traded for Mathews in a sign and trade, at least in my mind.

i think the Spurs should do it. George turned out not to be the defender Pop thought he could be, and that's what he needed to do. i say trade Hill for Mathews and groom Temple as the back-up PG for next season.

Spurs aren't winning shit w/o a perimter stopper next season. if Manu has to guard Bryant and like he did many times versus the Lakers this year my head is going to explode.

that would be a bad move. with duncan no longer being an unstoppable force, ginobili needing his minutes monitored, and parker's long-term future in doubt - you can't trade away a guy who is going to be counted on as one of your perimeter scorers.

we're no longer at the point where we can just surround the big 3 with pure role players. the rest of the roster needs to include guys who provide something on both ends of the floor.

plus, i still think there is a good chance that hill develops into an above average defender - provided that he is not asked to consistently take on the quicker PGs around the league. he seems to hold up better against bigger wings than he does quicker players his own size.

all that said, Matthews would be a GREAT addition - but not at the expense of Hill. if we KNEW that anderson could be counted on a scorer, maybe i would consider it, but that's certainly not the case yet.

[Vito Corleone]

I think we're at a point where if Jefferson leaves then it will force our hand in moving parker for either cap space to get a real FA three, or for a real three under contract.

[K-State Spur]

I think we're at a point where if Jefferson leaves then it will force our hand in moving parker for either cap space to get a real FA three, or for a real three under contract.

you don't create a hole at the 1 to fill a hole at the 3

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

would marbs/iverson come out and play for us vet minimum?

Why would you want them to, and why are you asking on a small forward discussion thread?

[DPG21920]

http://fongbao.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/panic-button.jpg

If the Spurs miss out on Tiago, I think they go into rebuild mode. I would hope they would not spend the full MLE on Wes if that is the case.

[Blackjack]

In fairness, Finley was a power forward . . .

[E-RockWill]

In fairness, Finley was a power forward . . .
:lmao

[Obstructed_View]

In fairness, Finley was a power forward . . .

Well, Finley was told to play power forward...

[tp2021]

Well, Finley was told to play power forward...

He wouldn't have agreed if he wasn't such a great teammate and consummate professional...

[Spurs Brazil]

Jazz Waiting For Spurs, Blazers To Make Offer To Matthews

The Jazz are waiting for free-agent forward Wesley Matthews to receive possible offers from the Spurs and Trail Blazers.

Utah is waiting to see if San Antonio or Portland will make Matthews an offer before committing to just how much they are willing to spend on retaining him.

Read more: http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/67892/20100706/jazz_waiting_for_spurs_blazers_to_make_offer_to_ma tthews/#ixzz0sw3MkXZh

[The Btown Spur]

Jazz Waiting For Spurs, Blazers To Make Offer To Matthews

The Jazz are waiting for free-agent forward Wesley Matthews to receive possible offers from the Spurs and Trail Blazers.

Utah is waiting to see if San Antonio or Portland will make Matthews an offer before committing to just how much they are willing to spend on retaining him.

Read more: http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/67892/20100706/jazz_waiting_for_spurs_blazers_to_make_offer_to_ma tthews/#ixzz0sw3MkXZh


What could the Spurs offer Matthews? It seems that the Jazz could match any offer made by the Spurs.

[Spurs808]

i posted this in the josh smith thread, and i know its a stretch but i think this trade could be sick:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=29ynoan

a starting lineup of Hill/Manu/Wallace/Duncan/Splitter with bibby, anderson, and blair off the bench would be pretty dirty imo

[Anonymous Cowherd]

Don't think we could offer Matthews any more than the $1.8m LLE... same with many players.
We don't have cash to throw around.

[tuncaboylu]

i posted this in the josh smith thread, and i know its a stretch but i think this trade could be sick:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=29ynoan

a starting lineup of Hill/Manu/Wallace/Duncan/Splitter with bibby, anderson, and blair off the bench would be pretty dirty imo

Realgm admins should make hard to use this trade machine, it can be very dangerous in some people's control.

Is there any logical meaning of this trade for Charlotte Bobcats? Why would they absorb the huge contracts of Josh Smith and M. Williams, while sending their cheaper versions Gerald Wallace and Boris Diaw?

[The Btown Spur]

I really doubt Charlotte trades wallace when they started to look so good 2nd half of last season with him and jackson at the core

[Spurs808]

Realgm admins should make hard to use this trade machine, it can be very dangerous in some people's control.

Is there any logical meaning of this trade for Charlotte Bobcats? Why would they absorb the huge contracts of Josh Smith and M. Williams, while sending their cheaper versions Gerald Wallace and Boris Diaw?

i know that would never happen. just thought id have some fun while we wait for everything to play out

[DAF86]

Korver would be a perfect fit: low profile, great shooter, good defender, high IQ.

[wildbill2u]

Put Manu at SF. He'd give up a couple of inches to most and more than that to a few like Dirk--but he's been known to defend Dirk before.

Some fear his age and injury possibilitiy but you have only a few more years of Manu and you must ride that horse till it breaks. With the exception of the 2008 season, he has averaged about 75 games a year. I believe he would welcome being back in the starting rotation. He loves to play.

I don't think you coach "scared" of what might happen. You have to take your shot, and he's getting paid a lot of money to be that weapon.

Against the good teams, we don't have the luxury of bringing him off the bench anymore.

Duncan, Splitter, Manu, Hill and Parker as a starting five would give any other coach/team the cold sweats.

[wut]

no we need a real SF...one that can defend and hit 3s. (Bruce where are you!?! :lol damn you father time!)

[coyotes_geek]

Korver would be a perfect fit: low profile, great shooter, good defender, high IQ.

Umm...............

[Darkwaters]

Umm...............

Let him dream...

[iminol]

no fucking Childress way

[5in10]

Let him dream...
haha seriously.

[Magdalena M]

Korver is one of the best three point shooters in the NBA. If he was a good defender too, he'd probably play 35 minutes a game. Last season, he averaged 18 minutes per game. During the regular season Keith Bogans averaged 19.7 minutes per game.

[lurker23]

Some salary references: #6 on this list (Outlaw) just got 5 years, $35 million from Nets. #7 (Kleiza) got a 4 year, $20 million offer sheet.

[coyotes_geek]

Yep. Given the money being thrown around right now we can pretty much scratch off everyone in the top 15 on that list as being unattainable.

[yavozerb]

If the spurs can sign RJ for 7-8 mil at this point, that would have be considered a good sigining compared to some of these other guys. Not crazy about it, but hey, for the $ the spurs are not gonna find anyone else.

[objective]

If the Nets signed Outlaw, who else is there to even bid against?

Bulls don't need him. Knicks I doubt would want him. Nobody else could then even pay over the MLE except the Clippers, the Wizards and the Kings. Minnesota also, though barely. Of all those teams, only the Clippers can pretend that they're not rebuilding long term. If the Clippers want him they can have him.

I hope the Spurs don't just bid against themselves.

[AFBlue]

If the spurs can sign RJ for 7-8 mil at this point, that would have be considered a good sigining compared to some of these other guys. Not crazy about it, but hey, for the $ the spurs are not gonna find anyone else.

Agreed, and I think the outlook only gets better from here. If LeBron goes to Miami (still not sold, but it could happen), the only realistic place for him to land at a salary above the MLE is the Clippers.

Spurs seemingly have a lot of leverage at this point, and should be able to use it effectively to drive down both salary and years guaranteed. I wouldn't be thrilled, but RJ back with the Spurs for 3yrs at an average salary between $7-8M wouldn't devastate me.

[AFBlue]

If the Nets signed Outlaw, who else is there to even bid against?

Bulls don't need him. Knicks I doubt would want him. Nobody else could then even pay over the MLE except the Clippers, the Wizards and the Kings. Minnesota also, though barely. Of all those teams, only the Clippers can pretend that they're not rebuilding long term. If the Clippers want him they can have him.

I hope the Spurs don't just bid against themselves.

Forgot about the Wizards and Kings in my assessment. With Donte Greene and Casspi, it's doubtful the Kings would want RJ. The Wizards make some sense, but I haven't heard any rumors that they're even targeting him.

[Bruno]

Yep, it looks like the market for RJ looks thin.

9 teams have capspace (Bulls, Clippers, Heat, Minny, Nets, Knicks, Thunder, Kings and Wizards). If Miami get Lebron or goes with Mike Miller, Clippers are the only remaining legit candidate.

A full MLE offer is $33.4M. If Spurs have only to "fight" with theses offers, they could re-sign RJ on a reasonable deal or be in a situation of strength to do a S&T.

[coyotes_geek]

Knicks won't have any interest in RJ as long as Carmelo is set to become a FA next year.

[PDXSpursFan]

Parker to Portland for Batum, Miller & Prizbila.

[DPG21920]

Knicks won't have any interest in RJ as long as Carmelo is set to become a FA next year.

Most think he will take the money now.

[yavozerb]

Most think he will take the money now.

The knicks can run with Chandler and even Danilo at sf for half the price of RJ.
Why would they sign RJ to a long term deal? RJ will be returning to the sas, just get used to it...

[timvp]

Yeah, with the way the market is shaping up, the Spurs should tell RJ to let them know when he gets an offer. In the meantime, the Spurs should try to beg a decent SF to sign for the LLE.

[Blackjack]

Dorrell Wright and Rasual Butler are probably who I'd target with the LLE (but they may be base-year players at this point).

[biziofromdowntown]

Parker for Gallinari n someone else. I know Danilo well, i should bet he'll become Hedo 2.0

[yavozerb]

Parker for Gallinari n someone else. I know Danilo well, i should bet he'll become Hedo 2.0

I too like danilo, but it seems the knicks do not want to part with him. Also, they seem to be pretty confident they can sign TP next season without having to give up any of their core players this season.

[Bruno]

If Spurs sign RJ to a long term contract (which I don't like), they should at least do it with a flat or decreasing salary structure.

Spurs have enough space below the tax to offer RJ a big first year of contract and a flat or decreasing structure would make his contract less horrible in 2 or 3 years when RJ will be aging.

[coyotes_geek]

Parker for Gallinari n someone else. I know Danilo well, i should bet he'll become Hedo 2.0

The "n someone else" is the problem. The knicks don't have anyone else, nor can they give the Spurs a good 1st round draft pick any time soon since they've traded a couple away.

[coyotes_geek]

Most think he will take the money now.

Probably. Of course there's another 2011 free agent to be near and dear to our hearts whom the knicks might be interested in saving some cap space for.

[Blackjack]

Bonner's free now.

[DesignatedT]

If Spurs sign RJ to a long term contract (which I don't like), they should at least do it with a flat or decreasing salary structure.

Spurs have enough space below the tax to offer RJ a big first year of contract and a flat or decreasing structure would make his contract less horrible in 2 or 3 years when RJ will be aging.

That doesn't sound too bad. IMO I would rather sign RJ to a 3-4 year deal than let him walk for nothing even though some posters would disagree. He is by far better than anything we can get on the market or that we already have.

[biziofromdowntown]

NY 2011 2012?

Parker
x
Melo
Gallinari
Amar'e


not bad.

[pad300]

Do you think we could get Q-Rich for the minimum. He was actually pretty decent last year?

[Blackjack]

It's probably safe to assume if a Heat player can be had for the minimum, they're probably going to wind up with the Heat.

[Spurs Brazil]

It looks like RJ will be the starting SF but I hope the Spurs get a backup with the LLE.

A lot of those guys are gone. I think Jones, Butler and and Q are realistic and good options

I'd like to Howard and Barnes too but I think those two will get more than we can pay

I just hope Spurs get one more veteran at SF

[Bruno]

I highly doubt Rasual Butler will only get the LLE given the state of the market.

The first players on timvp's list that could be had with the LLE is Pete Mcikael at #15. The 14 players before him should be paid more.

Among realistic target, my favorite one is by far James Jones. I hope Spurs will go after him and convince him to sign with them instead of re-signing with Miami where he won't get playing time.

[benefactor]

I really feel like Jones will go back to Miami. IMO, Butler and Barnes are the two best options at this point.

[Spurs Brazil]

I don't see any team talking about Howard. Do you think he'd be a good fit?

[Bruno]

I don't see any team talking about Howard. Do you think he'd be a good fit?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ys-freeagentbuzz070810


Howard looking for new contract

Washington Wizards free-agent forward Josh Howard is optimistic his knee injury won’t keep him from landing a new contract soon.

Howard had surgery to repair a torn anterior cruciate ligament in his left knee in March and was projected to be out six to eight months. He suffered the injury in just his fourth game with the Washington Wizards after being traded by the Dallas Mavericks.

“The doctors say I’m ahead of schedule in my fourth month of rehab,” Howard told Yahoo! Sports. “I’m optimistic I’ll be ready by the start of the regular-season.”

Howard averaged 12.7 points and 3.6 rebounds in 35 games for Washington and Dallas last season. While Washington was the first team to express interest after free agency began, Howard said Miami, New York, Sacramento, Boston and the Los Angeles Clippers have also been in contact with his agent.

Howard hopes to sign with someone within the next two weeks.

“I’m going to be open-minded,” Howard said. “But I have some loyalty to Washington for getting me out of my situation with Dallas. I have interest in them. But I have to keep my options open.”

– Marc J. Spears, 12:14 p.m. ET, July 8

[benefactor]

Josh Howard...ugh.

With what is left, I'd almost be willing to see them chance if he'd take the LLE.

[coyotes_geek]

In this market, Howard stands a pretty good chance at getting full MLE.

With regards to LLE targets, James Jones is about as good as it's going to get.

[DesignatedT]

hell yeah id give howard a chance for the LLE... he will get more than that though even with the prior injury

[ohmwrecker]

I really feel like Jones will go back to Miami. IMO, Butler and Barnes are the two best options at this point.

I, unfortunately, agree. Josh Howard will want too much money, and fuck that dude anyway.

The board seems to be at a consensus that the LLE should be spent on a SF (which I said at the beginning of last year when everyone was clamoring for bigs, BTW). The division seems to be whether the SF should be a defender or a 3pt shooter. I vote for a defender because, I believe the Spurs relay too heavily on the 3.

[SenorSpur]

I remember reading the Spurs had interest in Utah's Wesley Matthews. Looks as though he could be off the table soon. Thanks to the greedy-ass, free-spending Blazers, who throw money at players, as though it's going out of style.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158532

[MaNu4Tres]

but I hope the Spurs get a backup with the LLE.

A lot of those guys are gone. I think Jones, Butler and and Q are realistic and good options

I'd like to Howard and Barnes too but I think those two will get more than we can pay

I just hope Spurs get one more veteran at SF


I've been skeptical about the Spurs adding a veteran SF all summer and still am.

The only way Spurs add another wing via free agency is if he has his best years ahead of him and is better than what they have now (Matthews).

Even if Matthews is very unlikely (being restricted), I don't see the Spurs adding a veteran wing because of how high they are on Anderson, Hairston and Gee. I've been saying it all summer and will stick by it. All three will be on the roster and this year is the year to see what they can bring.

[AFBlue]

If the Spurs offer Josh Howard the LLE and he takes it, that's a no brainer. When healthy he's a beast. If he were with the Spurs from the start of his career he would have not become such a knuckle head.

+1...not that it'll happen, but completely agree.

[slick'81]

Out of all the free agents that will be overpaid, I don't think Josh Howard will even get 5 million a year. He's in his 30s now, teams that would want him have pretty much used their MLEs or have that spot locked up, I doubt Dallas takes him back. 2 years 4 million (full LLE) is more than fair. It's a gamble, especially on someone who now has no where to go coming off an ACL tear. I think if Howard matures into a man it is right now.


that would be sic maybe the acl tear will put him in that price range but i doubt it

[AFBlue]

that would be sic maybe the acl tear will put him in that price range but i doubt it

Yeah, the two-year deal I can see...the $2M/yr, not so much. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets somewhere between $4-5M per year on a short-term deal.

[024]

out of the realistic choices, rasual butler is the best bet. make 3's and play defense is all the spurs need.

[SenorSpur]

If the Spurs offer Josh Howard the LLE and he takes it, that's a no brainer. When healthy he's a beast. If he were with the Spurs from the start of his career he would have not become such a knuckle head.

+2

Spurs are running out of options - FAST!

[tdunk21]

rasual butler
raja bell(if he wants to play with us)
tony allen

these 3 can play good defense, but lacks the 3pt shot, especially allen did a very good job on kobe in the finals...plz RC get it done....

[Solid D]

Dorell Wright going to Golden State for 3 years, $11M. He's not that good.

[Vic Petro]

McGrady seems to have the right mindset...

Above all, what he wants to do now, 14 years and a couple hundred million dollars after leaving Auburndale High School, is win an NBA championship, or at least contend for one.

"It's only right that I do that, to end my career that way," he said. "I've had to carry the load for so many years, it's only right that I go somewhere where I can win a championship."

He finished the season averaging 9.4 points in 24 games with the New York Knicks, who acquired his contract from Houston.

"I'd love to stay there, but I just don't see them being a championship team," he said. "I think everybody who knows basketball knows the teams that are up there contending for the title. I don't really want to mention names, but there's only a handful of teams."

The names he didn't want to mention are the Lakers, Celtics, Heat, Magic and perhaps the Spurs and Nuggets

...

McGrady doesn't need money, but he would like a role on a good team.

"What I've got to prove is that I can be on the basketball court and contribute the way I can to a team that really needs me to play in a role," he said. "At this stage of my career, no, I'm not going to give you 25, 30 points the way I did. But I can play point guard at 6-8 for a team; I can still give you 15 minutes to help a team win. I can be a distributor and create mismatch problems. I still can do that.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20100710/NEWS/7105063?p=2&tc=pg

[ducks]

mcgrady off the bench would not be bad for the lle

[benefactor]

Desperate times call for desperate measures. TMac...here's 4 million...c'mon down.

[ElNono]

I would take T-Mac for the lle as a spot up shooter experiment...

[slick'81]

Desperate times call for desperate measures. TMac...here's 4 million...c'mon down.


no shit :toast

[024]

McGrady seems to have the right mindset...

Above all, what he wants to do now, 14 years and a couple hundred million dollars after leaving Auburndale High School, is win an NBA championship, or at least contend for one.

"It's only right that I do that, to end my career that way," he said. "I've had to carry the load for so many years, it's only right that I go somewhere where I can win a championship."

He finished the season averaging 9.4 points in 24 games with the New York Knicks, who acquired his contract from Houston.

"I'd love to stay there, but I just don't see them being a championship team," he said. "I think everybody who knows basketball knows the teams that are up there contending for the title. I don't really want to mention names, but there's only a handful of teams."

The names he didn't want to mention are the Lakers, Celtics, Heat, Magic and perhaps the Spurs and Nuggets

...

McGrady doesn't need money, but he would like a role on a good team.

"What I've got to prove is that I can be on the basketball court and contribute the way I can to a team that really needs me to play in a role," he said. "At this stage of my career, no, I'm not going to give you 25, 30 points the way I did. But I can play point guard at 6-8 for a team; I can still give you 15 minutes to help a team win. I can be a distributor and create mismatch problems. I still can do that.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20100710/NEWS/7105063?p=2&tc=pg
sounds like he's going to the heat.

[Trill Clinton]

Mcgrady can't shake that playoff curse..we don't need that bad juju on the team.

[benefactor]

sounds like he's going to the heat.
Wouldn't surprise me a bit. I would if I were him.

[benefactor]

Mcgrady can't shake that playoff curse..we don't need that bad juju on the team.
Meh...that's overrated. He has always raised his game in the playoffs. It was more about his teams sucking.

[Blackjack]

If McGrady would take the LLE, I'd pick him up in a heartbeat. And it has everything to do with this:


"At this stage of my career, no, I'm not going to give you 25, 30 points the way I did. But I can play point guard at 6-8 for a team; I can still give you 15 minutes to help a team win. I can be a distributor and create mismatch problems. I still can do that.

Tracy has long been one of the best decision makers in the league as a facilitator from the wing position and he's a capable defender with good size. Paired with Hill for stretches, he could potentially be a great asset for the team. And if he's willing to come for the LLE, the reward is much higher than the risk.

[Dro210]

Would love to have McGrady... With the position we're in right now, especially for the LLE, the risk is almost non-existent and the reward is possibly very high.

That said, if I'm him, I've already inked my deal for the minimum in Miami.

[Obstructed_View]

Yeah, I'd love to have TMac here, but he's going to Miami. I wouldn't be surprised if he got in trouble for paying the team back his salary in order to be allowed to sign.

[TDMVPDPOY]

looks like alot of teams are going to overpay for scrubs atm just to keep up with other teams

lol blazers just offer mathews of utah jizz for 7m a season offer sheet...MLE

dunno if the jizz going to counter offer, since they have AK47 in a contract year, could just trade this fool for talent or deron would bolt

[Mr Bones]

McGrady's playoff career numbers are slightly better than his regular season career numbers. He has never been a bad player in the playoffs. Those Orlando teams he played for in his prime would have won 25 games at most without him. They sucked. Whenever I hear someone mindlessly repeat the cliche that TMac didn't play well in the playoffs, I know I'm reading the opinion of an uninformed basketball fan.

The idea that him signing for the minimum with a team that started Keith Bogans in 49 games last year is even in question is ludicrous. He should go to Miami. They'll appreciate him. The Spurs are too busy focusing on their "spread 4" philosophy to bother with a real basketball player, even if he is past his prime and recovering from an injury.

[Dro210]

I always thought T-Mac was the best player out of the "next Jordan" group early in the decade.... Still think he would have been if not for so many bad injuries. Of course he wouldn't have had the legacy of Kobe, like Mr Bones just said, his teams were horrible, but T-Mac was the fuckin truth. When he was really going in on offense, not a person in the world could stop him.

[Vic Petro]

I would think the only advantages SA would possess over Miami

LLE vs. minimum salary (probably means little)
A better role

Spurs could offer TMac a spot in the rotation but also have enough players to cover so he doesn't have to play back to backs, etc.

Miami wouldn't need him for heavy minutes but he'd probably have to play more often.

[Trill Clinton]

Meh...that's overrated. He has always raised his game in the playoffs. It was more about his teams sucking.


Him not winning a playoff series and being past his prime is enough, not to mention injury prone, is enough for me to not want him here...we have some young talent we need to give minutes to...do.not.want.

[MaNu4Tres]

Rather give Anderson, Hairston and Gee an opportunity instead of McGrady. TBH

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I have a vague feeling Rasual Butler will end up here. He's nothing special, but he can defend and hit the open 3, and I think he'll fit our system because he's unselfish - he's a prototypical Spurs veteran FA signing.

[Darkwaters]

I have a vague feeling Rasual Butler will end up here. He's nothing special, but he can defend and hit the open 3, and I think he'll fit our system because he's unselfish - he's a prototypical Spurs veteran FA signing.

Perfect! I've been advocating for him for a while now. I think he'd be a great asset. 6'8, can shoot the 3, long, can defend pretty well. Plus hes not a horrible ball handler. I remember watching a Hornets game where both Chris Paul and Speedy Claxton went down and Rasual Butler ended up operating as the primary ball handler for the team.

Sign him up!

[Blackjack]

I have a vague feeling Rasual Butler will end up here. He's nothing special, but he can defend and hit the open 3, and I think he'll fit our system because he's unselfish - he's a prototypical Spurs veteran FA signing.

I've had the same feeling, that's if they do sign someone.

The LLE just doesn't go as far as it used to. :lol

[benefactor]

Not signing someone would be pretty unwise. Depending on a rookie and some young prospects that might not even make the team is not the road a team looking to take one last shot at the finals should be taking. I agree with others that say Butler looks like the logical choice.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

From another thread - if Matthews goes to Portland, they have way too many swings and we should try to trade for Batum (unlikely) or Fernandez (more likely) while their FO is in disarray. I know Fernandez is no SF, but we could make it work and he has huge potential as yet largely untapped.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

If we have to go minimum (can't snag Butler), who would you take from Trenton Hassell, Stephen Graham, or Yakouba Diawara?

[yavozerb]

From another thread - if Matthews goes to Portland, they have way too many swings and we should try to trade for Batum (unlikely) or Fernandez (more likely) while their FO is in disarray. I know Fernandez is no SF, but we could make it work and he has huge potential as yet largely untapped.

I like that idea alot and you are correct about there depth at the 2 and 3 positions...I wish the spurs had more trade options though other than TP..

[L.I.T]

If Rudy Fernandez could be had for a pu-pu platter of non-guaranteed contracts and draft picks you go for it. He adds a veteran shooter with a track record in the league. Doubt he's on the market though, or that Portland would be willing to trade him for that.

[Bruno]

If we have to go minimum (can't snag Butler), who would you take from Trenton Hassell, Stephen Graham, or Yakouba Diawara?

None.

I'm sure Spurs are looking to sign a vet wing but there is a point where they should let it go. I rather see Spurs gambling on Hairston, Gee, Anderson and Temple that signing a crappy vet.

Jarvis Hayes is maybe the worst vet Spurs should consider.

[HarlemHeat37]

I honestly believe that Gee's play in SL will be the determining factor in whether the Spurs sign a scrub vet like Hayes or not..it will determine whether they want to take the risk or not..

If they can sign a guy like Rasual Butler, go for it, but fuck guys like Bogans..

[HarlemHeat37]

I honestly believe that Gee's play in SL will be the determining factor in whether the Spurs sign a scrub vet like Hayes or not..it will determine whether they want to take the risk or not..

If they can sign a guy like Rasual Butler, go for it, but fuck guys like Bogans..

[DPG21920]

Spurs appear to be fooked at the SF spot.

[Chomag]

This is probably the wrong thread but with Labron gone from Cleveland would they be interested in a trade for RJ?

[coyotes_geek]

This is probably the wrong thread but with Labron gone from Cleveland would they be interested in a trade for RJ?

Doesn't matter. I can't see RJ wanting to be part of a Lebron-less cavs team.

[Cane]

No one's going to want to play for Cleveland now after what that jackass owner did.

[Blackjack]

If they can sign a guy like Rasual Butler, go for it, but fuck guys like Bogans..

You're playing with fire when using those two words in conjunction. :downspin:

[tdunk21]

You're playing with fire when using those two words in conjunction. :downspin:

:lol

[ace3g]

If the Spurs are forced to use the vet minimum, they might as well sign Gist because I don't want any more 6'5 Bogan, Udoka type players.

This roster is filled with PG/SG and PF/C only 1 legit SF (if RJ isn't traded)

[smrattler]

I didn't even know there were a total of 30 SFs out there in FAgency this year.

[TimDunkem]

I didn't even know there were a total of 30 SFs out there in FAgency this year.

Most of these guys are guards or hybrid forwards.

[smrattler]

Most of these guys are guards or hybrid forwards.

Yeah, and most are tweeners on the small side (under 6'7) and we have too many of those. I think we need more size to compete.

[Killakobe81]

Sorry didnt read whole thread ...

IF Splitter is here yall have no shot at Miller unless sign and trade ...

How do Spurs have no cap space if RJ opted out?

[angelbelow]

Sorry didnt read whole thread ...

IF Splitter is here yall have no shot at Miller unless sign and trade ...

How do Spurs have no cap space if RJ opted out?

He brought us under the luxury tax but we are still over the cap/barely under. Because of that we have the MLE and LLE to spend but the MLE is going to splitter. So with that said, RJ potentially left us with no starting SF and no ability to sign one since we only have the LLE. That is why most of us are hoping for a sign and trade where we get a large trade exception back or RJ just resigning since we won't be able to find that type of talent level with the LLE.

[Killakobe81]

He brought us under the luxury tax but we are still over the cap/barely under. Because of that we have the MLE and LLE to spend but the MLE is going to splitter. So with that said, RJ potentially left us with no starting SF and no ability to sign one since we only have the LLE. That is why most of us are hoping for a sign and trade where we get a large trade exception back or RJ just resigning since we won't be able to find that type of talent level with the LLE.

I know RJ 's name is mud ...

But if he agrees to a decent salaryu at less years would you guys want him back?

I think if spurs play a bit more uptempo he could be useful ...

Splitter, Hill Parker and RJ can all run the floor Im assuming your rookie as well ...

[angelbelow]

I know RJ 's name is mud ...

But if he agrees to a decent salaryu at less years would you guys want him back?

I think if spurs play a bit more uptempo he could be useful ...

Splitter, Hill Parker and RJ can all run the floor Im assuming your rookie as well ...

My first choice would be that trade exception. But my 2nd is definitely bring RJ back for a reasonable contract and a reasonable number of years (which probably won't happen =p) because there is no way we can fill our roster with someone of RJs caliber with only the LLE and the veterans minimum to work with.

My hope is to resign RJ for 3 years when Timmy is likely done and Manu's contract extension is over. That way we can keep a guy with RJ's talent and pray that he comes around while putting ourselves in a position to clear a lot of cap space when their contracts are up.

[coyotes_geek]

Scratch another guy off the list. Tony Allen to Memphis. 3yrs/$9.7 mil.

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/68072/20100711/tony_allen_to_sign_with_grizzlies/

[ohmwrecker]

Scratch another guy off the list. Tony Allen to Memphis. 3yrs/$9.7 mil.

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/68072/20100711/tony_allen_to_sign_with_grizzlies/


Tony Allen is a SG.

[Gino2882]

Scratch another guy off the list. Tony Allen to Memphis. 3yrs/$9.7 mil.

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/68072/20100711/tony_allen_to_sign_with_grizzlies/

I don't think he would of fit this team. Excellent perimeter defender but he can not shoot.

[coyotes_geek]

Tony Allen is a SG.

I know. But he was #14 on timvp's list so that's why I mentioned it.