1957 vs. 2010

[Wild Cobra]

When i first read this, my thought was, this was when I was in high school and didn't even need to go back to 1957. Don't know the origins, but this has been around for years with the year changing as time goes by.

Please don't cry "we've seen this before." I'm sure many of you have. there are some of us who haven't seen it before.

Scenario 1:

Jack goes quail hunting before school and then pulls into the school parking lot with his shotgun in his truck’s gun rack.

1957 - Vice Principal comes over, looks at Jack’s shotgun, goes to his car and gets his shotgun to show Jack.

2010 - School goes into lock down, FBI called, Jack hauled off to jail and never sees his truck or gun again. Counselors called in for traumatized students and teachers.
Scenario 2:

Johnny and Mark get into a fist fight after school.

1957 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins.. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up buddies.

2010 – Police called and SWAT team arrives — they arrest both Johnny and Mark. They are both charged them with assault and both expelled even though Johnny started it.
Scenario 3:

Jeffrey will not be still in class, he disrupts other students.

1957 – Jeffrey sent to the Principal’s office and given a good paddling by the Principal. He then returns to class, sits still and does not disrupt class again.

2010 – Jeffrey is given huge doses of Ritalin. He becomes a zombie. He is then tested for ADD. The school gets extra money from the state because Jeffrey has a disability.
Scenario 4:

Billy breaks a window in his neighbor’s car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt..

1957 – Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college and becomes a successful businessman.

2010 – Billy’s dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy is removed to foster care and joins a gang. The state psychologist is told by Billy’s sister that she remembers being abused herself and their dad goes to prison. Billy’s mom has an affair with the psychologist.
Scenario 5:

Mark gets a headache and takes some aspirin to school.

1957 – Mark shares his aspirin with the Principal out on the smoking dock.

2010 – The police are called and Mark is expelled from school for drug violations His car is then searched for drugs and weapons.
Scenario 6:

Pedro fails high school English.

1957 – Pedro goes to summer school, passes English and goes to college.

2010 – Pedro’s cause is taken up by state. Newspaper articles appear nationally explaining that teaching English as a requirement for graduation is racist. ACLU files class action lawsuit against the state school system and Pedro’s English teacher. English is then banned from core curriculum. Pedro is given his diploma anyway but ends up mowing lawns for a living because he cannot speak English.
Scenario 7:

Johnny takes apart leftover firecrackers from the Fourth of July, puts them in a model airplane paint bottle and blows up a red ant bed.

1957 – Ants die.

2010 - ATF, Homeland Security and the FBI are all called. Johnny is charged with domestic terrorism. The FBI investigates his parents — and all siblings are removed from their home and all computers are confiscated. Johnny’s dad is placed on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly again.
Scenario 8:

Johnny falls while running during recess and scrapes his knee. He is found crying by his teacher, Mary. Mary hugs him to comfort him.

1957 – In a short time, Johnny feels better and goes on playing.

2010 – Mary is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She faces 3 years in State Prison… Johnny undergoes 5 years of therapy.

[ChumpDumper]

2010 - Some douche posts a chain email.

[Wild Cobra]

2010 - Some douche posts a chain email.
You're the douche for treating it that way. I am not treating this as an email, asking to pass it around. I went to school during that time when we brought knives and guns to school, so go fuck yourself because you haven't a clue of my reasons. This composition is a reflection of what zero tolerance really does. I see the 1957 representation as very close to accurate on my school in the 70's.

[ChumpDumper]

You're the douche for treating it that way. I am not treating this as an email, asking to pass it around. I went to school during that time when we brought knives and guns to school, so go fuck yourself because you haven't a clue of my reasons.U mad?

I said you were posting it, which you did.

Blame it on all those kids who shot and stabbed people for ruining the fun of packing on school grounds for the rest of us.

[baseline bum]

Scenario 9:

1957 - Johnny takes Jada to the school dance. As they leave, a crowd gathers, follows them home, lynches Jada, and shoots Johnny.

[Wild Cobra]

Scenario 9:

1957 - Johnny takes Jada to the school dance. As they leave, a crowd gathers, follows them home, lynches Jada, and shoots Johnny.
That would be true in some areas, especially the south. Not where I'm at.

Isn't it worse that today we have government employees doing the damage to our kids than other kids?

[ChumpDumper]

I'd say the racial lynchings were worse.

[Wild Cobra]

I'd say the racial lynchings were worse.
As a crime yes. I was speaking as to who was damaging other people's lives. The government should not be damaging others lives like they do today.

[ChumpDumper]

As a crime yes. I was speaking as to who was damaging other people's lives. The government should not be damaging others lives like they do today.Kids are still doing damage to other kids.

And parents are still damaging kids.

That hasn't changed.

[spursncowboys]

2010 - Some douche posts a chain email.

I have no respect for all-star status on ST if a no talent ass-clown gets 2nd team. Who voted-your mom?

[spursncowboys]

Libs want people to think whites and blacks never got along or hated each other. My grandfather went to a black/white school. there were wackos then just like there are now-baseline, chump, etc.

[ChumpDumper]

I have no respect for all-star status on ST if a no talent ass-clown gets 2nd team.Envy isn't pretty.
Who voted-your mom?She's dead.


Libs want people to think whites and blacks never got along or hated each other. My grandfather went to a black/white school. there were wackos then just like there are now-baseline, chump, etc.It's very simple, SnC. Were there lynchings or not?

[ALWAYS bet on BLACK]

Hey, Wild Cobra...

Another great posting that deserves to be in the LIVING IN THE PAST/ANTI PROGRESSIVE/ANTI-TOLERANT FORUM



1957- White kids at school...."GOD DAMNED ######S USING MY WATERFOUNTAIN!!!!"

2010-"Mmmmm Mmmmm Mmmmm BHO Mmmmm Mmmmmm Mmmmmm."

[Veterinarian]

The good old times never really existed bro, unless you were a white male.

[DMX7]

Is this a Tea Party Chain E-mail?

I want my America back (from the minorities)! Wah-wah, cry me a river.

[Ignignokt]

So everything else is worse except for racial equality. Man we have it so good.

I'm just glad i can drink out of the same water fountain as whitey, this victory numbs me to the fact that our nation is going to face a depression, collapse of our economic situation, and increase towards a police state.

But hey, atleast i can live in the same shantytown with whitey!!!!!!!


yess ah ummm mmmm.. the river jordan... hmmm. mmm..

[Ignignokt]

Anti Progressive is not a bad thing, Greece could sure use some of that right now.

[CosmicCowboy]

Heck, I remember taking guns to school in the 70's. We would bring our shotguns and when school was out we would load up in one car and go dove hunting. Heck, the coach in charge of the parking lot would watch us do it.

[Wild Cobra]

Libs want people to think whites and blacks never got along or hated each other. My grandfather went to a black/white school. there were wackos then just like there are now-baseline, chump, etc.
What I see today is that most blacks are racists, and almost no whites are.

Think about it. Black parents keep telling their kids that we are the bad guys.

When will the blacks end racism?

[Wild Cobra]

The good old times never really existed bro, unless you were a white male.
The black kids when I was in school were fully integrated into the social groups. Must be a North-West thing. We didn't grow up with racism.

[Wild Cobra]

Is this a Tea Party Chain E-mail?

I want my America back (from the minorities)! Wah-wah, cry me a river.
Jump to conclusions much?

I traced this back to 2007, it may go back farther but I think it was created for the 50 year span.

SCHOOL -1957 vs. 2007 (http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=234983)

[Wild Cobra]

Subject: 1956 vs 2006 in our schools (http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/007944.html)

[CosmicCowboy]

So everything else is worse except for racial equality. Man we have it so good.

I'm just glad i can drink out of the same water fountain as whitey, this victory numbs me to the fact that our nation is going to face a depression, collapse of our economic situation, and increase towards a police state.

But hey, atleast i can live in the same shantytown with whitey!!!!!!!


yess ah ummm mmmm.. the river jordan... hmmm. mmm..

Uhhhh, you did notice that right or wrong, the US democratically elected a black President, didn't you?

[Wild Cobra]

I'm not looking farther. Here is the oldest I found, dated 12/16/2006:

When We Were Teens (http://iliveindelawarecounty.blogspot.com/2006_12_01_archive.html)

Fits my era better too. Not an even 50 years, so possible the original version:


Posted by Franny Ward on 9:56 AM
This post is so true that I just had to share it with all of you. Read on..

Scenario: Jack pulls into school parking lot with rifle in gun rack.

1973 - Vice Principal comes over, takes a look at Jack's rifle, goes to his car and gets his to show Jack.

2006 - School goes into lockdown, FBI called, Jack hauled off to jail and never sees his truck or gun again. Counselors called in for traumatized students and teachers.

Scenario: Johnny and Mark get into a fist fight after school.

1973 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up best friends. Nobody goes to jail, nobody arrested, nobody expelled.

2006 - Police called, SWAT team arrives, arrests Johnny and Mark. Charge them with assault, both expelled even though Johnny started it.

Scenario: Jeffrey won't be still in class, disrupts other students.

1973 - Jeffrey sent to office and given a paddling by Principal. Sits still in class.

2006 - Jeffrey given huge doses of Ritalin. Becomes a zombie. School gets extra money from state because Jeffrey has a disability.

Scenario: Billy breaks a window in his father's car and his Dad gives him a whipping.

1973 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college, and becomes a successful businessman.

2006 - Billy's Dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy removed to foster care and joins a gang. Billy's sister is told by state psychologist that she remembers being abused herself and their Dad goes to prison. Billy's mom has affair with psychologist.

Scenario: Mark gets a headache and takes some headache medicine to school.

1973 - Mark shares headache medicine with Principal out on the smoking dock.

2006 - Police called, Mark expelled from school for drug violations. Car searched for drugs and weapons.

Scenario: Mary turns up pregnant.

1973 - 5 High School Boys leave town. Mary does her senior year at a special school for expectant mothers.

2006 - Middle School Counselor calls Planned Parenthood, who notifies the ACLU. Mary is driven to the next state over and gets an abortion without her parent's consent or knowledge. Mary given condoms and told to be more careful next time.

Scenario: Pedro fails high school English.

1973: Pedro goes to summer school, passes English, goes to college.

2006: Pedro's cause is taken up by state democratic party. Newspaper articles appear nationally explaining that teaching English as a requirement for graduation is racist. ACLU files class action lawsuit against state school system and Pedro's English teacher. English banned from core curriculum. Pedro given diploma anyway but ends up mowing lawns for a living because he can't speak English.

Scenario: Johnny takes apart leftover firecrackers from the 4th of July, puts them in a model airplane paint bottle, blows up a red ant bed.

1973 - Ants die.

2006 - BATF, Homeland Security, FBI called. Johnny charged with domestic terrorism, FBI investigates parents, siblings removed from home, computers confiscated, Johnny's Dad goes on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly again.

Scenario: Johnny falls while running during recess and scrapes his knee. He is found crying by his teacher, Mary. Mary, hugs him to comfort him.

1973 - In a short time Johnny feels better and goes on playing.

2006 - Mary is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She faces 3 years in State Prison.

[Wild Cobra]

Uhhhh, you did notice that right or wrong, the US democratically elected a black President, didn't you?
Why do blacks still live in the past when it comes to whites? I wish they would realize they are our equals.

[boutons_deux]

"they are our equals"

B U L L F U C K I N G S H I T

WHITE women get paid 30% less than white men for the same job. Wanna find the stats for black men and women who don't even GET the same job? or unemployment rates for blacks vs whites?

racism and sexism and ageism are rampant in USA. Equality and non-discrimination are legal concepts, not a living reality. White EA's males always have and always will rule.

But keep lying to yourself in your fog of myths.

[CosmicCowboy]

"they are our equals"

B U L L F U C K I N G S H I T

WHITE women get paid 30% less than white men for the same job. Wanna find the stats for black men and women who don't even GET the same job? or unemployment rates for blacks vs whites?

racism and sexism and ageism are rampant in USA. Equality and non-discrimination are legal concepts, not a living reality. White EA's males always have and always will rule.

But keep lying to yourself in your fog of myths.

Blacks and whites with equivalent education, skills, and ambition have equal opportunity in our society.

You are perpetuating a myth.

Does a 23 year old college educated white and a 23 year old black high school dropout have the same opportunity? Hell no, and they shouldn't.

[Bender]

whenever Past vs Present comes up, someone immediately turns it into a racial thing.

someone could open a thread about past cars vs present cars, and within 5 posts it would be all racial.

[Wild Cobra]

"they are our equals"

B U L L F U C K I N G S H I T

WHITE women get paid 30% less than white men for the same job. Wanna find the stats for black men and women who don't even GET the same job? or unemployment rates for blacks vs whites?

racism and sexism and ageism are rampant in USA. Equality and non-discrimination are legal concepts, not a living reality. White EA's males always have and always will rule.

But keep lying to yourself in your fog of myths.
they are equal if they apply themselves equally. When you take batch statistics, yes, the numbers show such things. However, a black man, or a white woman, makes the same money i do for the same job. Your statistics show such numbers for various reasons. Some women prefer to be moms. Blacks are generally not as well educated due to social and community reasons. not because of prejudice.

Are you telling me blacks are not as capable as whites?

[Wild Cobra]

Blacks and whites with equivalent education and skills have equal opportunity in our society.

You are perpetuating a myth.

Does a 23 year old college educated white and a 23 year old black high school dropout have the same opportunity? Hell no, and they shouldn't.
Very true.

[ALWAYS bet on BLACK]

god damn, you are so ignorant and so racist

[Wild Cobra]

god damn, you are so ignorant and so racist
Yes, boutons is. Isn't he.

[Stringer_Bell]

jesus titty fucking christ on a stick.

could those scenarios be full of more bullshit? i try to give the benefit of the doubt sometimes, but what a load of bat guano. :nope

[ALWAYS bet on BLACK]

boutons speaks the truth
he is fair



stop posting hate filled shit wild cobra

[Wild Cobra]

jesus titty fucking christ on a stick.

could those scenarios be full of more bullshit? i try to give the benefit of the doubt sometimes, but what a load of bat guano. :nope
They are slightly hyped, but not by much. They have their basis in things that actually made headlines.

Any specific thing you are calling bullshit on?

[Wild Cobra]

boutons speaks the truth
he is fair



stop posting hate filled shit wild cobra
Wow...

I cannot believe you ignorance.

[Kori Ellis]

ALWAYS bet on BLACK (yes, I deleted your post) - Try to post without using racial slurs, and with a little more substance.

Thanks.

[ALWAYS bet on BLACK]

Wild Cobra is pissing me off!!!!!

Wild Cobra, it is obvious that you are anti-progress and that includes the rise of the black human being in Amerikkka.

For whatever reason, you are wanting to turn back the hands of time and go back to a time period that kept blacks at the bottom of the food chain.

Sir, that is racist. And i wish you would stop spreading hate.

[Wild Cobra]

Wild Cobra is pissing me off!!!!!

Wild Cobra, it is obvious that you are anti-progress and that includes the rise of the black human being in Amerikkka.

For whatever reason, you are wanting to turn back the hands of time and go back to a time period that kept blacks at the bottom of the food chain.

Sir, that is racist. And i wish you would stop spreading hate.
Nothing about the original post was racist. I'm sorry if that's what you see. That's your personal problem. Please stop spreading your racism. The only thing remotely close is the scenario using the name "Pedro" not speaking English well. However, it is depicting facts that occur, and is not a racist scenario.

[ALWAYS bet on BLACK]

Everything about the 50's and 60's was racist!!!!

[Wild Cobra]

Everything about the 50's and 60's was racist!!!!
Maybe where you live, but not where I live. Please don't drop it on my doorstep.

[ALWAYS bet on BLACK]

I guess you did not live in Amerikkka in the 1950's, right?

[Stringer_Bell]

They are slightly hyped, but not by much. They have their basis in things that actually made headlines.

Any specific thing you are calling bullshit on?

With the exception of Scenario 1, the assumptions they make about the general attitude and protocol of the current and past times makes me want to use my right to bear arms against the CPUs of the dumb fucks that spend time writing those idiotic things and polluting cyberspace.

PS: I don't have a word to say about racism. I've got a New York State of Mind, ain't no muthafucka gonna do shit, no matter what decade it is. Pussy ass racists of all colours of the rainbow.

[ALWAYS bet on BLACK]

I agree with StringerBell. That shit is just pathetic.

[Wild Cobra]

I guess you did not live in Amerikkka in the 1950's, right?
Sorry your so filled with hatred. I was never exposed to such things in the 60's here in Oregon. Please leave it where ever you live if you visit this state.

[Wild Cobra]

With the exception of Scenario 1, the assumptions they make about the general attitude and protocol of the current and past times makes me want to use my right to bear arms against the CPUs of the dumb fucks that spend time writing those idiotic things and polluting cyberspace.

PS: I don't have a word to say about racism. I've got a New York State of Mind, ain't no muthafucka gonna do shit, no matter what decade it is. Pussy ass racists of all colours of the rainbow.
I remember the 60's and 70's and grew up in a rural area. These scenarios of the past are dead-on for where I grew up. The scenarios of the present are almost spot on of zero tolerance policies.

Do you remember the 60's?

[spursncowboys]

god damn, you are so ignorant and so racist

You are the one who says it's ok to call white people whitey and cracker.

[CosmicCowboy]

I remember the 60's and 70's and grew up in a rural area. These scenarios of the past are dead-on for where I grew up. The scenarios of the present are almost spot on of zero tolerance policies.

Do you remember the 60's?

Hell, I grew up in San Antonio and they are accurate. Fights might even go completely unpunished as long as the issue was "settled". They would make the guys shake hands and agree it was over.

We didn't even have "school district police" or security guards.

You had to REALLY be a fuckup to go to the "alternative" school.

[Stringer_Bell]

I remember the 60's and 70's and grew up in a rural area. These scenarios of the past are dead-on for where I grew up. The scenarios of the present are almost spot on of zero tolerance policies.

Do you remember the 60's?

Not really, but this actually helps illuminate my point. It's not about the times, it's the location.

I'm not saying that 1957 didn't happen like the scenarios said it did, I wouldn't be surprised if a majority (51%) of the country operated like that...but I won't assume all of the country did, nor will I assume that in 2010 the scenarios play out nearly in the way it is suggested they do. The small towns have no use for "zero tolerance" nazi policies, just the civilized city centres

It's fear-mongering and longing for times that have been proven ultimately inadequate. If you can't discipline your kid, don't pass it off on the VP to spank him into listening in class. You don't have to beat your kid to get them to be productive adults, and if you don't beat them they won't always turn into junkies fucking dudes for crack money. It's bullshit.

[Mr. Peabody]

Blacks and whites with equivalent education, skills, and ambition have equal opportunity in our society.

You are perpetuating a myth.


:lol "Equal Opportunity"

Blacks and Whites with equivalent education and skills (I don't know how you gauge ambition) do not make the same amount of money. Blacks, on average, make less than equally situated White counterparts.

Do they have equal opportunity, in the sense that they may both apply for the same jobs? Yes. Do they have equal rewards for the same education and skills? No.



More education continues to pay off in a big way


http://www.census.gov/schools/census_for_teens/educational_attainment.html

Adults with advanced degrees earn four times more than those with less than a high school diploma. Workers 18 and older with a master’s, professional or doctoral degree earned an average of $82,320 in 2006, while those with less than a high school diploma earned $20,873.

Workers 18 and older with a bachelor’s degree earned an average of $56,788 in 2006, while those with a high school diploma earned $31,071.

Among those whose highest level of education was a high school diploma or equivalent, non-Hispanic white workers had the highest average earnings ($32,931), followed by Asians ($29,426) and blacks ($26,268). Average earnings of Hispanic workers in the same group ($27,508) were not statistically different from those of Asian or black workers.

Among workers with advanced degrees, Asians ($88,408) and non-Hispanic whites ($83,785) had higher average earnings than Hispanics ($70,432) and blacks ($64,834).


Those Blacks holding advanced degrees just need more ambition I guess.

[CosmicCowboy]

:lol "Equal Opportunity"

Blacks and Whites with equivalent education and skills (I don't know how you gauge ambition) do not make the same amount of money. Blacks, on average, make less than equally situated White counterparts.

Do they have equal opportunity, in the sense that they may both apply for the same jobs? Yes. Do they have equal rewards for the same education and skills? No.



Those Blacks holding advanced degrees just need more ambition I guess.

Or the right advanced degree.

[LnGrrrR]

1957: Man beats wife, authorities say she probably deserved it
2010: Man beats wife, man goes to jail

[spursncowboys]

:lol "Equal Opportunity"

Blacks and Whites with equivalent education and skills (I don't know how you gauge ambition) do not make the same amount of money. Blacks, on average, make less than equally situated White counterparts.

Do they have equal opportunity, in the sense that they may both apply for the same jobs? Yes. Do they have equal rewards for the same education and skills? No.



Those Blacks holding advanced degrees just need more ambition I guess.
If you get a true control-same location; same degree; same job sector- I wonder if the career race baiters would still be able to advocate this garbage?

[ChumpDumper]

1957: Man beats wife, authorities say she probably deserved itAs long as the issue was settled....

[Wild Cobra]

:lol "Equal Opportunity"

Blacks and Whites with equivalent education and skills (I don't know how you gauge ambition) do not make the same amount of money. Blacks, on average, make less than equally situated White counterparts.

Do they have equal opportunity, in the sense that they may both apply for the same jobs? Yes. Do they have equal rewards for the same education and skills? No.

Very little of that is because of color. It's because of culture and character.


Those Blacks holding advanced degrees just need more ambition I guess.
Asians are harder working as a culture. I'll bet Hispanics that go on to college are also better performing than whites. Most come from families that lived hard times, and know the value of an education and hard work.

Too many blacks have boxed themselves into a unique culture. A self fulfilling prophecy that whites keep holding them down. This relieves them of all responsibility to better themselves, because with this attitude, it's always someone Else's fault.

Dr. Kings dream is alive and well for those who choose to have good character.

[Stringer_Bell]

Dr. Kings dream is alive and well for those who choose to have good character.

Nepotism is alive and well too, and in addition to a decent number of "good jobs" being about who you know and not what you know, character doesn't always overcome an employer's prejudices (whether it be where you got your degree from, where you worked last, etc...prejudice isn't always about race).

The system, and the open doors, aren't always open even though people say they are. Just saying, people can be dicks.

[LnGrrrR]

Blacks and whites with equivalent education, skills, and ambition have equal opportunity in our society.

You are perpetuating a myth.

Does a 23 year old college educated white and a 23 year old black high school dropout have the same opportunity? Hell no, and they shouldn't.

Equal? Perhaps on merit, but you can't deny that whites certainly have increased wealth than blacks due to obvious factors, and wealth does play a large role in education opportunities.

[CosmicCowboy]

Equal? Perhaps on merit, but you can't deny that whites certainly have increased wealth than blacks due to obvious factors, and wealth does play a large role in education opportunities.

Do you dare state these obvious factors?

and wealth is not necessary for educational opportunities.

[Wild Cobra]

character doesn't always overcome an employer's prejudices (whether it be where you got your degree from, where you worked last, etc...prejudice isn't always about race).
I would say it never overcomes an employers prejudice. Just because some employers will be unfair, it doesn't mean you cannot find the ones who are fair. Besides, skin color isn't the only prejudice. Not all prejudices are racist. We whites also have to present ourselves with character to employers.

The system, and the open doors, aren't always open even though people say they are. Just saying, people can be dicks.
Maybe not certain doors, but there are so many doors. Ignore the doors closed and move to one that's open. We whites have some closed doors too. Maybe not as many, but we just do on to the next door.

[Wild Cobra]

Equal? Perhaps on merit, but you can't deny that whites certainly have increased wealth than blacks due to obvious factors, and wealth does play a large role in education opportunities.
Statistically, no denial. Is that a reason for a black man not to strive to rise above statistics?

[Mr. Peabody]

Asians are harder working as a culture. I'll bet Hispanics that go on to college are also better performing than whites. Most come from families that lived hard times, and know the value of an education and hard work.

Too many blacks have boxed themselves into a unique culture. A self fulfilling prophecy that whites keep holding them down. This relieves them of all responsibility to better themselves, because with this attitude, it's always someone Else's fault.


Did you even read what I posted before you started spouting off your suppositions and rationalizations for your apparent bigotry?


Among workers with advanced degrees, Asians ($88,408) and non-Hispanic whites ($83,785) had higher average earnings than Hispanics ($70,432) and blacks ($64,834).

[Wild Cobra]

Did you even read what I posted before you started spouting off your suppositions and rationalizations for your apparent bigotry?
Sorry, I missed part of it. My assumption is wrong in this case. So what?

How to you extrapolate bigotry from that anyway?

[FromWayDowntown]

I guess this is probably going to engender another diatribe from WC about how I've once again misconstrued his statement that he wouldn't trust a black surgeon. He never meant it to say that blacks shouldn't go to medical school. He only meant it to say that there is such a significant unlikelihood that a black man or woman could qualify on the merits for medical school that any black surgeon must necessary be presumed to be a product of affirmative action.

While whites must show their character, the absence of same in blacks will be presumed -- from copious socioeconomic study, of course.

[DMX7]

Or the right advanced degree.

What do you mean? From the right college or the right type of degree?

[DMX7]

I'm glad I'm not black. This is kind of depressing.

[Mr. Peabody]

If you get a true control-same location; same degree; same job sector- I wonder if the career race baiters would still be able to advocate this garbage?

Here's a good one to look at. This study breaks it down by degree and considers variables such as parent's education, professional work experience, etc.


http://www.econ.ucsb.edu/~weinberg/grads.pdf

The picture that emerges in this study is one in which racial gaps did not change between the 1980s and the 1990s for the typical worker in the 20-39 age range. During both the 1980-1990 and 1991-2001 periods, black men
in their 20’s and 30’s earned about 15 percent less than white men, while black women earned about 25 percent less than white men. Among black men, the observed gaps were smaller among those in their 20’s than among those in
their 30’s, but the relationship between age and earnings differentials was remarkably stable over the two decade period. Among black women, gaps tended to be large among both younger and older workers, although the
youngest workers in the most recent cohort fared somewhat better

A portion of the observed racial differentials can be explained by differences in characteristics including college major, professional work experience, and parents’ education. After controlling for these and other factors, black men in their 20’s and 30’s, on average, earn 8 percent less per hour and 9 percent less per week than white men, while black women earn 15 percent less per hour and 17 percent less per week. A closer look reveals that wage differentials vary by college major. For example, they are very small and not statistically significant for electrical engineering majors. However, college majors with small racial gaps are the exception rather than the norm.

Evidence from new surveys of recent college graduates find no unexplained racial pay differentials one or two years after college graduation in the 1990’s. This is inconsistent with previous findings of significant gaps among new college graduates in the 1980’s (Bound and Freeman 1992, Weinberger 1998), but similar to the situation observed in 1970 (Freeman 1976). One survey of 1994 graduates shows that new black college graduates are not at a disadvantage immediately after graduation. However, the same sample resurveyed only three years later shows that wage differentials had begun to emerge that could not be explained by college major, college grade point
average, the college or university attended or other observed factors. We speculate that enforcement of affirmative action or anti-discrimination policies is easiest and most effective during the recruitment of new college graduates, but that the idiosyncratic promotion policies of individual employers are less conducive to change.

In sum, there are very small, if any, racial differentials in earnings among comparable new graduates entering the labor market immediately after completing college. Yet racial differentials of significant size emerge over the next two decades of the college graduate’s working life. The pattern has been extraordinarily stable for black men in their 20’s and 30’s over the past two decades. For black women, the even larger earnings disadvantage has improved somewhat for younger cohorts, although it is too soon to tell whether this change is permanent. For both men and women, the 10 to 20 percent difference in earnings over the first twenty years after college graduation calls for further explanation.

[CosmicCowboy]

What do you mean? From the right college or the right type of degree?

I would say the right type of degree. My GUESS (not backed up by statistics just as you can't refute me with statistics) is that a large majority of minority advanced degrees are in education. They get a 4 year degree and start teaching and realize the system not only pays them to get advanced degrees but rewards them financially to get a masters. It's rational behavior.

At the same time a masters in education does not pay the same as a masters in engineering, science, etc.

Again, just a guess. Bottom line, a teacher with 10 years experience and a masters degree in the same school district is going to make the same money as other teachers with the same experience/degree no matter what race/ethnicity they are.

[Wild Cobra]

I guess this is probably going to engender another diatribe from WC about how I've once again misconstrued his statement that he wouldn't trust a black surgeon. He never meant it to say that blacks shouldn't go to medical school. He only meant it to say that there is such a significant unlikelihood that a black man or woman could qualify on the merits for medical school that any black surgeon must necessary be presumed to be a product of affirmative action.

While whites must show their character, the absence of same in blacks will be presumed -- from copious socioeconomic study, of course.
You refuse to see my real point about that example. Yes, you misconstrue it.

I'm only saying that affirmative action has caused valid suspect of qualifications. That as a whole, affirmative action has done more harm than bad.

[FromWayDowntown]

You refuse to see my real point about that example. Yes, you misconstrue it.

I'm only saying that affirmative action has caused valid suspect of qualifications. That as a whole, affirmative action has done more harm than bad.

And, consequently, YOU don't trust black surgeons -- no?

[Mr. Peabody]

I would say the right type of degree. My GUESS (not backed up by statistics just as you can't refute me with statistics) is that a large majority of minority advanced degrees are in education.

Even accounting for various types of majors and degrees, White still earn 8-9% more.

Read the study I posted.

[Wild Cobra]

And, consequently, YOU don't trust black surgeons -- no?
Correct.

however, it's not racism. It's the statistics I believe.

[CosmicCowboy]

Even accounting for various types of majors and degrees, White still earn 8-9% more.

Read the study I posted.

A University of California study? Is it OK if I'm a little dubious of their methodology/conclusions?

[ChumpDumper]

Correct.

however, it's not racism. It's the statistics I believe.What statistics?

[Wild Cobra]

What statistics?

the statistics I believe

[ChumpDumper]

Which statistics do you believe?

[FromWayDowntown]

Correct.

however, it's not racism. It's the statistics I believe.

But of course . . . .

[Wild Cobra]

Which statistics do you believe?
Nothing I'm going to attempt to find all these years later ion the internet.

You have to remember. I lived the beginning of affirmative action. You will hound me until I can find an internet source you can't debunk with another. I'm not playing your sick game today.

Did you live through affirmative action from the start?

[FromWayDowntown]

Nothing I'm going to attempt to find all these years later ion the internet.

You have to remember. I lived the beginning of affirmative action. You will hound me until I can find an internet source you can't debunk with another. I'm not playing your sick game today. I lived through affirmative action.

The world was a much better place when the vast majority of blacks were confined to the ghetto and not given any real chance to be upwardly mobile. Yeah, sure, there were the few that managed to find a way out, but at least you could trust that they had to overcome substantial hurdles along the way and had shown their merits!!

[Mr. Peabody]

A University of California study? Is it OK if I'm a little dubious of their methodology/conclusions?

I'm no logician, but I do believe this form of argument is fallacious.

[ChumpDumper]

Nothing I'm going to attempt to find all these years later ion the internet.

You have to remember. I lived the beginning of affirmative action. You will hound me until I can find an internet source you can't debunk with another. I'm not playing your sick game today.

Did you live through affirmative action from the start?I simply don't believe you.

You make up things like "statistics" too often to be taken at your word.

That's your fault for being a liar.

[Wild Cobra]

The world was a much better place when the vast majority of blacks were confined to the ghetto and not given any real chance to be upwardly mobile. Yeah, sure, there were the few that managed to find a way out, but at least you could trust that they had to overcome substantial hurdles along the way and had shown their merits!!
Affirmative action started as a good program. It then evolved to quota systems. If you don't see the harm that does on society, then I'm at a loss of what to say next. I don't know how to give any short answers on that.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm no logician, but I do believe this form of argument is fallacious.It has the word "California" in it!

[Wild Cobra]

I simply don't believe you.

You make up things like "statistics" too often to be taken at your word.

That's your fault for being a liar.
Bye Chump. Either you didn't understand my words, or you are purposely skewing them. Either way, considered yourself ignored unless you actually say something relevant.

[ChumpDumper]

Bye Chump. Either you didn't understand my words, or you are purposely skewing them. Either way, considered yourself ignored unless you actually say something relevant.You say there are statistics.

You fail to provide statistics.

You have made up shit in the past.

What else is there to understand?

[FromWayDowntown]

Affirmative action started as a good program. It then evolved to quota systems. If you don't see the harm that does on society, then I'm at a loss of what to say next. I don't know how to give any short answers on that.

I believe that people given opportunities still must perform in order to succeed. The fact that at least some of those who are given opportunities manage to succeed strikes me as a good thing for society. In other words, the more that people capitalize upon opportunities -- when opportunities are made available to them, by whatever means -- to improve themselves, the better our society is.

Then again, I'm not predisposed to believing that those whose skin color differs from mine are categorically inferior and that their professional successes are presumably the product of having been given an unfair opportunity.

I wonder if you have the same litmus test for white professionals who gain opportunities by virtue of legacies or nepotism. Well, probably not -- those guys are white and not subject to the problems that make blacks inherently suspect.

[Wild Cobra]

What else is there to understand?

OK, I'll bite...


You say there are statistics.

No i didn't.


You fail to provide statistics.

I said I didn't know if I could find them.


You have made up shit in the past.

Are you accusing me of making up my life experiences?

Saying "the statistics I believe" is so open to interpretation, and you fell for it. Hook, line, and sinker.

Where can you extrapolate I ever implied they were statistics I heard of, read, etc?

Isn't it obvious that my references to living through affirmative action means I have some first hand accounts?

You are such a predictable fool.

[CuckingFunt]

What I see today is that most blacks are racists, and almost no whites are.

Think about it. Black parents keep telling their kids that we are the bad guys.

When will the blacks end racism?

This thread should come with a warning. I very nearly choked reading this.

[DMX7]

What statistics?


The statistics I believe

You're absolutely pathetic, Wild Cobra.

You always make shit up to support your broken logic conclusions, but this is taking it to a new level.

[ChumpDumper]

OK, I'll bite...

No i didn't.

I said I didn't know if I could find them.

Are you accusing me of making up my life experiences?

Saying "the statistics I believe" is so open to interpretation, and you fell for it. Hook, line, and sinker.

Where can you extrapolate I ever implied they were statistics I heard of, read, etc?

Isn't it obvious that my references to living through affirmative action means I have some first hand accounts?

You are such a predictable fool.So you are saying you believe your own made up bullshit, while also saying there are statistics you can't currently find but did find years ago on the internet.

You need to choose one lie and stick with it, WC.

Which lie will it be?

[spursncowboys]

I'm no logician, but I do believe this form of argument is fallacious.

Didn't the dailykos just admit that all their polls were distorted by the company they hired? it is not that far fetched to disbelieve the method of obtaining research when you have an outcome you are trying for.

[ChumpDumper]

Didn't the dailykos just admit that all their polls were distorted by the company they hired? it is not that far fetched to disbelieve the method of obtaining research when you have an outcome you are trying for.Did they have an outcome they were "trying for"?

Or are you making that up?

[Mr. Peabody]

Didn't the dailykos just admit that all their polls were distorted by the company they hired? it is not that far fetched to disbelieve the method of obtaining research when you have an outcome you are trying for.

Their polls were distorted because the polling company didn't do the work they were paid to do and fabricated polling samples. How does this invalidate every other study/poll out there?

I once had a doctor I didn't feel I could trust; therefore, no one should trust any doctor.

[CuckingFunt]

Blacks are generally not as well educated due to social and community reasons. not because of prejudice.

Are you telling me blacks are not as capable as whites?

Not because of prejudice? Really??

Ever wonder how it came to be that entire communities of people throughout the country became magically undereducated? Must be due to inherent social values, right? Couldn't possibly have to do with the fact that "white flight" and the building of suburbia left behind urban communities that were almost entirely people of color. Or that those urban communities became increasingly marginalized and disenfranchised as good education, "high culture," and various other services and opportunities followed the white money out to suburbia, leaving behind groups that were poor to begin with, and largely dependent on early public transportation, several miles away from access to all of the things we, as a society, value as the signs of a strong or healthy community. Nor could it have anything to do with the fact that these urban communities of color, now lacking all of the important societal benchmarks, have been further marginalized by the public opinion that clearly ghetto black folk WANT to live in boarded up rats nests and be drug dealers because, dammit, they just haven't worked all that hard at gaining access to all the things that have been systematically taken away from them.

Nope. None of that.

Has nothing to do with prejudice. Or generations of systemic racism.

At all.

Black people just like being ignorant. For social reasons. It's a community value.

[CosmicCowboy]

Did they have an outcome they were "trying for"?

Or are you making that up?

Do we know? How big was the sample? what other controls were used?

We have all seen data/results manipulated both by the right and the left.

Was this poll the work product of a graduate thesis?

If it was, did they maybe bend the data to confirm the premise?

I'm not saying they did or didn't. I'm just saying I'm dubious of the results of this specific study and not prepared to accept them as gospel fact based on a post in an internet message board.

[Shastafarian]

Do we know? How big was the sample? what other controls were used?

We have all seen data/results manipulated both by the right and the left.

Was this poll the work product of a graduate thesis?

If it was, did they maybe bend the data to confirm the premise?

I'm not saying they did or didn't. I'm just saying I'm dubious of the results of this specific study and not prepared to accept them as gospel fact based on a post in an internet message board.
Translation: I didn't open the PDF.

[ChumpDumper]

Do we know? How big was the sample? what other controls were used?

We have all seen data/results manipulated both by the right and the left.

Was this poll the work product of a graduate thesis?

If it was, did they maybe bend the data to confirm the premise?

I'm not saying they did or didn't. I'm just saying I'm dubious of the results of this specific study and not prepared to accept them as gospel fact based on a post in an internet message board.Actually you are saying to dismiss them out of hand because you don't agree with the result. You assume something must be wrong with the study.

[CuckingFunt]

Actually you are saying to dismiss them out of hand because you don't agree with the result. You assume something must be wrong with the study.

Do you need it spelled out? The study is from California.

California!

[Wild Cobra]

Not because of prejudice? Really??

Ever wonder how it came to be that entire communities of people throughout the country became magically undereducated?
No, it started with racism.

Must be due to inherent social values, right? Couldn't possibly have to do with the fact that "white flight" and the building of suburbia left behind urban communities that were almost entirely people of color.
Your point has no merit.

Or that those urban communities became increasingly marginalized and disenfranchised as good education, "high culture," and various other services and opportunities followed the white money out to suburbia, leaving behind groups that were poor to begin with, and largely dependent on early public transportation, several miles away from access to all of the things we, as a society, value as the signs of a strong or healthy community.
Stop looking for a handout.

Nor could it have anything to do with the fact that these urban communities of color, now lacking all of the important societal benchmarks, have been further marginalized by the public opinion that clearly ghetto black folk WANT to live in boarded up rats nests and be drug dealers because, dammit, they just haven't worked all that hard at gaining access to all the things that have been systematically taken away from them.

Nope. None of that.

Who's responsibility is it to raise those social benchmarks?

You know. There are whites have the same problems. It's not a black and white issue, it's generational often. It's hard work to break the cycle, but that's an individual responsibility.


Has nothing to do with prejudice. Or generations of systemic racism.

At all.

If people would start a new future for themselves instead of living in the past, don't you think there are enough opportunities out there?


Black people just like being ignorant. For social reasons. It's a community value.

No, the are living in the past. Screw the past. Make a new future.

[spursncowboys]

Their polls were distorted because the polling company didn't do the work they were paid to do and fabricated polling samples. How does this invalidate every other study/poll out there?

I once had a doctor I didn't feel I could trust; therefore, no one should trust any doctor.

should you not question it though?

[DMX7]

No, the are living in the past. Screw the past. Make a new future.

Ahhhhhhh... Yes.

The Bootstrap Theory, first articulated by Dr. Stephen T. Colbert, D.F.A., states that the best way for a person or group of people to come up in the world is to create their own opportunites and lift themselves up by their bootstraps. It was similar to evolution in that it was an unproven theory of Doctor Colbert's, but after several years of study at the Honorable Reverend Jerry Falwell's Liberty University the obvious truth on the matter of Bootstrap theory was revealed. It is now common fact amongst true Americans that bootstrap theory is no longer a theory, but a fact of life.

http://wikiality.wikia.com/Bootstrap_theory

[ChumpDumper]

should you not question it though?On what basis are you questioning this particular study?

[Stringer_Bell]

Black people just like being ignorant. For social reasons. It's a community value.

Were you wearing your KKK hood and robe when you typed this? :wow

Scenario 11: White people are crazy and get mad for no reason all the time
1957- No black rights
2010- Black President

Thank you and good night, you racists kiss my ass!

[CosmicCowboy]

Were you wearing your KKK hood and robe when you typed this? :wow

Scenario 11: White people are crazy and get mad for no reason all the time
1957- No black rights
2010- Black President

Thank you and good night, you racists kiss my ass!

Sometimes there really IS no cure for ignorance. Taken in context, did you really NOT GET the sarcasm?

[ElNono]

Correct.

however, it's not racism. It's the statistics I believe.

:lmao

Cue My god, you don't understand! schtick...

[CuckingFunt]

Were you wearing your KKK hood and robe when you typed this? :wow

Scenario 11: White people are crazy and get mad for no reason all the time
1957- No black rights
2010- Black President

Thank you and good night, you racists kiss my ass!

I don't own a KKK hood.

You might want to invest in a sarcasm detection helmet, however.

[CuckingFunt]

don't you think there are enough opportunities out there?

Equally available, accessible, and advertised/made known to everybody? No. Not by a long shot.


No, the are living in the past. Screw the past. Make a new future.

When it's still happening, it's not the past.

[spursncowboys]

Were you wearing your KKK hood and robe when you typed this? :wow

Scenario 11: White people are crazy and get mad for no reason all the time
1957- No black rights
2010- Black President

Thank you and good night, you racists kiss my ass!

:lol

[ducks]

2010 - some douche posts a chain email.

link

[SpursNextRomanEmpire]

I don't own a KKK hood.

You might want to invest in a sarcasm detection helmet, however.

Exactly! Seriously Stringer_bell, sometimes you dont get it

[ChumpDumper]

link

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4472193&postcount=1

[ALWAYS bet on BLACK]

not that hard to comprehend...


WildCobra is an obvious racist.

[Veterinarian]

The black kids when I was in school were fully integrated into the social groups. Must be a North-West thing. We didn't grow up with racism.

Women and blacks could vote in Portland in the 50s?

[George Gervin's Afro]

What I see today is that most blacks are racists, and almost no whites are.

Think about it. Black parents keep telling their kids that we are the bad guys.

When will the blacks end racism?

how many black people do you know?

[CosmicCowboy]

Women and blacks could vote in Portland in the 50s?

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

uhhhhh....YEAH!

[rjv]

april 20, 1999

two kids walk into columbine high school....

[Stringer_Bell]

I don't own a KKK hood.

You might want to invest in a sarcasm detection helmet, however.

Actually, I beat you to the sarcasm tilt. I'm so good, YOU had to tell ME to buy a helment to detect it. :downspin:

PS: May this thread live long and prosper.

[Spurminator]

Old people in 1957 were looking back on the glory days of 1900 and bemoaning women's suffrage and the death of child labor.

Old people like to wax about the good ol' days. It's the one constant throughout history. Things are never as good as they used to be.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I can see it now... 30 yrs from now people will look back and rememebr the good old days when gay people couldn't marry..

[rjv]

Old people in 1957 were looking back on the glory days of 1900 and bemoaning women's suffrage and the death of child labor.

Old people like to wax about the good ol' days. It's the one constant throughout history. Things are never as good as they used to be.

...and apparenly WC misses the good old days when one could just take a gun or knife to school...

[George Gervin's Afro]

...and apparenly WC misses the good old days when one could just take a gun or knife to school...

you're soooooooo hateful...

[spursncowboys]

I can see it now... 30 yrs from now people will look back and rememebr the good old days when gay people couldn't marry..

And when christians could openly pray in public.

[George Gervin's Afro]

And when christians could openly pray in public.


:lmao


This literally made LOL...

good one spursncowboy

[Spurminator]

And when it was legal to be a wealthy white man!

[Stringer_Bell]

And when it was legal to be a wealthy white man!

http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/papermusic/images/high5.jpg

[elbamba]

Women and blacks could vote in Portland in the 50s?

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1210559107109450.xml&coll=7

[LoneStarState'sPride]

And when christians could openly pray in public.

THAT is the best comeback I've read in a long while lol. Props spursncowboys! :toast

Oh and as for blacks being more racist, it really does depend on who you talk to. My parents are so open and tolerant it's ridiculous. My girlfriend (who's white) and I have never heard word one about racism from my folks. A couple of my uncle's, however, utter more racial slurs (not just the "n" word, either) in 15 minutes of conversation than I'll even think about in 2 years. Everyone's parents have different, yet closely held personal beliefs about race relations, and those beliefs, more often than not, filter down to the children in varying strains, regardless of race.

[spursncowboys]

1996: white kid (me) doesn't get picked for basketball at the Longs Creek basketball court and incidentally was the only white guy there. The picked the effin middle school kid over me. wtf.

[George Gervin's Afro]

1996: white kid (me) doesn't get picked for basketball at the Longs Creek basketball court and incidentally was the only white guy there. The picked the effin middle school kid over me. wtf.

man up and play well so someone will pick you the next time..stop being a pussy

[LoneStarState'sPride]

1996: white kid (me) doesn't get picked for basketball at the Longs Creek basketball court and incidentally was the only white guy there. The picked the effin middle school kid over me. wtf.

Ouch :lol. I woulda picked you up, man--I love having non-blacks on my team, cuz the other brothas ALWAYS underestimate them and either get burned all game, or overcompensate on defense and give me TONS of room to operate (which I need since I can't jump lol--so much for that extra calf muscle helping my ups bullshit lol)

[spursncowboys]

man up and play well so someone will pick you the next time..stop being a pussy

they never saw me play. when ppl see my game they pick me.

[ElNono]

they never saw me play. when ppl see my game they pick me.

If you've been in Utah, you could be a pro right now...

[spursncowboys]

or upper west side of manhattan

[Veterinarian]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

uhhhhh....YEAH!

Tbh I was being sarcastic but it was still technically illegal for a black man to vote in Oregon until 1959, even though they had been doing so for decades.

"In 1870, Oregon was one of many states that refused to ratify the fifteenth amendment, which granted equal voting rights to African-American men. The amendment was not ratified in Oregon until 1959."

http://www.salemhistory.net/people/african_americans.htm

[ChumpDumper]

You can't pray in public?

Where do you live?

[Nbadan]

You can't pray in public?

Where do you live?

Now, now.....white man can't pray in public and never gets chosen to play basketball with the other reindeer...white man's plight...

[LnGrrrR]

Do you dare state these obvious factors?

and wealth is not necessary for educational opportunities.

Obvious factors being wealth passed down from older generations. I know a good deal of millionaires are "self-made" but not all of them. Heck, how many politicians sitting in Congress RIGHT NOW are sons or daughters of former representatives? Now multiply that out by every state and local law-making body.

Wealth is not necessary for educational opportunities, of course, but it sure does help. Check out the studies; children from wealthy homes tend to do much better on educational testing.

[CosmicCowboy]

Obvious factors being wealth passed down from older generations. I know a good deal of millionaires are "self-made" but not all of them. Heck, how many politicians sitting in Congress RIGHT NOW are sons or daughters of former representatives? Now multiply that out by every state and local law-making body.

Wealth is not necessary for educational opportunities, of course, but it sure does help. Check out the studies; children from wealthy homes tend to do much better on educational testing.

:lmao

I seriously doubt the difference was the money in dad's bank account. Dare I say it might have had something to do with better parenting in general from responsible adults?

[LnGrrrR]

Statistically, no denial. Is that a reason for a black man not to strive to rise above statistics?

Of course not. But it is a factor. No more, no less.

[LnGrrrR]

:lmao

I seriously doubt the difference was the money in dad's bank account. Dare I say it might have had something to do with better parenting in general from responsible adults?

Really CC? You're going to play this card? So being rich = responsible, is that what I'm hearing?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/article3042864.ece


They say that the brightest children born into the poorest families in 2000 are, by now, being overtaken in test scores by the least academic children from rich backgrounds. And whereas almost half of 23-year-olds from the wealthiest households had acquired a degree in 2002 only 10 per cent of those with the poorest parents did so.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~froomkin/texts/173.html


Statewide and countywide, one of the best predictors of test
scores remains socioeconomic status -- and Willard and La Paz are
two examples.


http://www.northjersey.com/news/020910_Students_in_wealthy_districts_score_higher_ on_SATs_New_Jersey_School_Report_Card_shows.html



North Jersey students in affluent suburban high schools consistently had dramatically higher SAT scores on average than those in poor urban areas, the New Jersey School Report Card released Tuesday shows.


Note, this is a whole richer REGION showing higher scores on average, not just picking out the individual "responsible" families.

There's more evidence if you're willing to look. Heck, even WC gave me this point without contention. Wealthier families tend to lead to more educated and more intelligent children. A great majority of studies back this up.

[CosmicCowboy]

Wealthier families tend to lead to more educated and more intelligent children. A great majority of studies back this up.

I agree. The question is WHY? It has to be environmental factors. The parents are clearly a big part of that.

[LnGrrrR]

Do we know? How big was the sample? what other controls were used?

We have all seen data/results manipulated both by the right and the left.

Was this poll the work product of a graduate thesis?

If it was, did they maybe bend the data to confirm the premise?

I'm not saying they did or didn't. I'm just saying I'm dubious of the results of this specific study and not prepared to accept them as gospel fact based on a post in an internet message board.

So, in other words, unless you were actually part of the post yourself, you're disbelieving it. Hey, if you want to be a skeptic, go ahead. But you could apply the same logic to... oh I don't know, pretty much EVERY STATISTIC THAT EVER EXISTED.

[FromWayDowntown]

I agree. The question is WHY? It has to be environmental factors. The parents are clearly a big part of that.

It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the greater funding available for the schools that affluent children attend -- whether public or private -- or the higher quality of the teachers and programs that greater funding brings. Or the funds available to the affluent parents to hire tutors or enroll their children in extra-curricular educational programs meant to enhance the advantages of such increased funding on a gross level. Or the availability of the affluent parents to support their children in their educational pursuits instead of having to be away from home working a 2nd or 3rd job to pay the bills.

[LnGrrrR]

I agree. The question is WHY? It has to be environmental factors. The parents are clearly a big part of that.

Well, we're makign progress. Originally, you said


I seriously doubt the difference was the money in dad's bank account.

Now you're willing to admit that environmental factors play a role. I can assume that you're including wealth as an environmental factor.

So, to get this straight, you're saying that wealthy parents = responsible parents, for the most part? That would be the only way to explain the widespread prevalence without using wealth as a primary factor.

And, just to make sure I'm reading you right, you're discounting the fact that higher wealth can lead to increased opportunities for better schools/teachers/tutors?

You're also pretty much willing to throw out Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, I'm assuming?

I'm sure lots of rich families have good parents. But do a STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT amount of rich families have "good parents" more than poor families? I highly doubt it.

[Wild Cobra]

It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the greater funding available for the schools that affluent children attend -- whether public or private -- or the higher quality of the teachers and programs that greater funding brings. Or the funds available to the affluent parents to hire tutors or enroll their children in extra-curricular educational programs meant to enhance the advantages of such increased funding on a gross level. Or the availability of the affluent parents to support their children in their educational pursuits instead of having to be away from home working a 2nd or 3rd job to pay the bills.
I would say that none of it has to do with school funding. For a very long time now, Oregon started funding schools equally by student counts. Not by the community tax base. Throwing more money at schools, if anything, has made things worse. It starts with the kids being willing to learn, and absorbing the information. Kids that don't have motivation them simply don't do well. Motivation has more to do with culture and family than money.

Can you say I'm wrong about the motivation part?

Can you tell me that many families who have poor performing children, are not guilty of telling these children that the whites will not let them move up, or continuing race issues withing them?

[LnGrrrR]

I would say that none of it has to do with school funding. For a very long time now, Oregon started funding schools equally by student counts. Not by the community tax base. Throwing more money at schools, if anything, has made things worse. It starts with the kids being willing to learn, and absorbing the information. Kids that don't have motivation them simply don't do well. Motivation has more to do with culture and family than money.

I think you misread him. He's saying the ability of a family to choose which schools they go to (ie. private) moreso than money thrown at schools.

Do you think that the children of rich parents have more motivation than children of non-rich parents?

The simple fact is that wealth seems to be a primary factor in determining whether a child will do well or not, on average. (Of course there are exceptions, but it's hard to test statistically for "motivation")



Can you tell me that many families who have poor performing children, are not guilty of telling these children that the whites will not let them move up, or continuing race issues withing them?

Who brought up anything about race WC?

Tell me WC, if it's all about motivation and bad parenting, why do wealthy children do better in schools? Are rich parents more responsible? Are they better at raising thier children than non-rich parents?

[Wild Cobra]

Tell me WC, if it's all about motivation and bad parenting, why do wealthy children do better in schools? Are rich parents more responsible? Are they better at raising thier children than non-rich parents?
It has to do with instilling things like motivation and initiative in kids. Look at the statistics. It has more to do with the stability and outlook of the family than it does school funding. A middle class or rich family with both parents around simply show a better teaching by example than a single mother raising kids on the government dole.

[Spurminator]

I think everybody is right.

[LnGrrrR]

It has to do with instilling things like motivation and initiative in kids. Look at the statistics. It has more to do with the stability and outlook of the family than it does school funding. A middle class or rich family with both parents around simply show a better teaching by example than a single mother raising kids on the government dole.

Woah woah woah, hold it right there. You don't get to shoehorn middle class in there. RICH children do better than both poor AND middle class children. And you don't get to throw "both parents around" in there either. That's a different factor, and doesn't play into this discussion. We're discussing wealth. Speaking of, wealth certainly increases the stability and outlook of families, doesn't it?

Again, we're not talking about school funding. We're talking about how much the FAMILY of the child makes. Let's not confuse the issues.

If you think that rich parents, on average, instill better values in their children than middle-class and poor parents, then at least own it. You willing to own up to that statement?

Note: For the purposes of this discussion, we're not talking about the super rich, sons of millionaires kid. Most studies seem to consider "rich" as making roughly $80,000 to $100,000 a year or more.

[DarrinS]

Didn't people learn to read, write, and calculate before calculators, PC's, and the Internet?

Wasn't there a time when all of this could was learned in a one-room schoolhouse, with nothing but a desk, chalk, and blackboard?

Man, we act like every freakin kid needs a laptop these days. When I was in elementary, a calculator was a very exotic piece of technology and I didn't see an a PC in a classroom until my senior year of high school (Apple IIc).

At some point, kids need to do their homework and parents need to make sure they do it.

[CosmicCowboy]

I did trig, analyt, and calculus in high school/college without a calculator.

[LnGrrrR]

Didn't people learn to read, write, and calculate before calculators, PC's, and the Internet?

Wasn't there a time when all of this could was learned in a one-room schoolhouse, with nothing but a desk, chalk, and blackboard?

Man, we act like every freakin kid needs a laptop these days. When I was in elementary, a calculator was a very exotic piece of technology and I didn't see an a PC in a classroom until my senior year of high school (Apple IIc).

At some point, kids need to do their homework and parents need to make sure they do it.

What's your point DarrinS? Are you denying that increased wealth leads to better education opportunities/more educated children or not?

[DarrinS]

I think we spend more money per student than any country in the world and it doesn't appear to be paying dividends.

[Wild Cobra]

I did trig, analyt, and calculus in high school/college without a calculator.
Calculators were new and expensive when I was in school. I did have a slide rule though.

Computer?

What's that? They took up a couple 19" racks, and only some big businesses and the government had them.

http://www.tcf.ua.edu/Classes/Jbutler/T389/SlideRule.jpg

[LnGrrrR]

I did trig, analyt, and calculus in high school/college without a calculator.

I guess we should just stop using calculators then... Honestly, as long as kids understand the underlying principles behind the equations the calculator is performing, I don't see why kids shouldn't be using calculators, laptops, etc etc.

[DarrinS]

What's your point DarrinS? Are you denying that increased wealth leads to better education opportunities/more educated children or not?


Sure, you can send your kids to a private school. I don't deny that.

But, what's unfair about that? If people want to spend THEIR OWN MONEY to separate their little Johnnie and Suzie from common public school riff raff (like me), then that is their right.

[LnGrrrR]

I think we spend more money per student than any country in the world and it doesn't appear to be paying dividends.

Let's go over this ONE MORE TIME.

We're not talking about funding for schools. We're talking about how children from wealthy families, on average, perform better/score better in education against children from middle-class and poor families.

Everyone in the same boat now? No misunderstanding? Ok then.

[DarrinS]

Let's go over this ONE MORE TIME.

We're not talking about funding for schools. We're talking about how children from wealthy families, on average, perform better/score better in education against children from middle-class and poor families.

Everyone in the same boat now? No misunderstanding? Ok then.


And? What's the point? Life is unfair.

[LnGrrrR]

Sure, you can send your kids to a private school. I don't deny that.

But, what's unfair about that? If people want to spend THEIR OWN MONEY to separate their little Johnnie and Suzie from common public school riff raff (like me), then that is their right.

*facepalm*

NO ONE IS SAYING THAT'S UNFAIR! Yeesh. If you had read through the thread, one of the points I brought up earlier is that minorities tend to have less wealth on average, which DOES have an impact on education, which then also affects their ability to increase wealth, etc etc. That's where this whole sidebar came from, which wouldn't even be here if CC had just accepted that whites tend to have more wealth on average which leads to better educational opportunities. (And don't give me the usual "a person has to have drive motivation etc etc because 1) duh and 2) that doesn't explain the wealth factor, unless you're stating rich parents are just better at raising their kids than middle/poor families)

[Wild Cobra]

Let's go over this ONE MORE TIME.

We're not talking about funding for schools. We're talking about how children from wealthy families, on average, perform better/score better in education against children from middle-class and poor families.

Everyone in the same boat now? No misunderstanding? Ok then.
Why do they score better? Is it the self esteem they grow up with, or the money?

Please don't try to isolate money. that has little bearing, except for private schools and college. Not for test scores.

[LnGrrrR]

And? What's the point? Life is unfair.

Thank you for proving my point, and that minorities are fighting an uphill battle against majorities when it comes to creating wealth.

[CosmicCowboy]

Thank you for proving my point, and that minorities are fighting an uphill battle against majorities when it comes to creating wealth.

Aw c'mon. Getting a good education is not an insurmountable task no matter what socioeconomic group you come from. So you say it's relatively easier if your parents are rich? Big fucking deal.

[LnGrrrR]

Why do they score better? Is it the self esteem they grow up with, or the money?

Please don't try to isolate money. that has little bearing, except for private schools and college. Not for test scores.

Really WC? So you're saying that rich children on average have better self-esteem than middle-class/poor folks?

Of course you can't COMPLETELY isolate money; that's impossible, and we both know that. However, controlling for factors as much as possible shows that money is a key factor. tell me, how would you control for your "self-esteem" theory?

If the self-esteem they grow up with comes from being part of a wealthy family, what difference does that make? THEY'RE STILL BENEFITING FROM BEING WEALTHY.

[rjv]

Aw c'mon. Getting a good education is not an insurmountable task no matter what socioeconomic group you come from. So you say it's relatively easier if your parents are rich? Big fucking deal.

cc may have inadvertently indicated the missing common denominator.

[CuckingFunt]

Sure, you can send your kids to a private school. I don't deny that.

But, what's unfair about that? If people want to spend THEIR OWN MONEY to separate their little Johnnie and Suzie from common public school riff raff (like me), then that is their right.

Yes.

It is.

So long as they/you can afford to do so.

No one in this thread is demonizing the choice to fund a child's private education. It's a wise choice. But it's not a choice that is financially available to all parents. The access to a private education is based on socioeconomic factors. To deny that fact is negligent, but to allow that denial to create the belief that poorer parents are automatically less dedicated to their child's educational success is flat out dangerous. Despite the name calling that goes on here, I sincerely doubt that any of the people on the other side of this argument are overtly or intentionally racist in their daily lives. I just don't get that vibe. And yet many of their arguments have suggested, directly at times, that certain socioeconomic and/or racial groups are somehow naturally or culturally inclined to value something other than education. That's a HUGE generalization, reliant upon several HUGE assumptions.

[LnGrrrR]

Aw c'mon. Getting a good education is not an insurmountable task no matter what socioeconomic group you come from. So you say it's relatively easier if your parents are rich? Big fucking deal.

That's not what I'm arguing; it's a strawman. All I said, thoughout the beginning, is that children from wealthy families score better. They do. Is it insurmountable? Obviously not. But surely, you'd prefer if the odds were on your side, right?

I mean, if I gave you a choice between rolling a 6 with a set of dice to earn 10 dollars, and rolling a 11 to earn 10 dollars, which choice would you pick?

[DarrinS]

There's only one solution to this problem: wealth redistribution

[CuckingFunt]

And? What's the point? Life is unfair.

The point is that life has historically been, and still is, a hell of a lot less fair for certain portions of the population than for others.

And, before the accusation comes, I'm not just speaking about race.

[CuckingFunt]

There's only one solution to this problem: wealth redistribution

If some of these other issues of agency and access were balanced out, the distribution of wealth would adjust itself over time. That's why so many people are heavily invested in making sure that doesn't happen.

[DarrinS]

The point is that life has historically been, and still is, a hell of a lot less fair for certain portions of the population than for others.

And, before the accusation comes, I'm not just speaking about race.


If only we could choose our parents. That's the ticket.

[LnGrrrR]

There's only one solution to this problem: wealth redistribution

There's no solution, other than the obvious one of providing means to allow upward social mobility.

[DarrinS]

There's no solution, other than the obvious one of providing means to allow upward social mobility.


There is a means.

[Wild Cobra]

If the self-esteem they grow up with comes from being part of a wealthy family, what difference does that make? THEY'RE STILL BENEFITING FROM BEING WEALTHY.
Yes, but self esteem also comes from other factors. You can be poor and instill values in your children if you don't blame others for your position in life. Lead by example. Just because someone is financially poor doesn't mean their lives aren't rich.

What does it say when rich parents expect their children to achieve certain benchmarks and hold them to it? Do as many poor or middle class families expect their children to go to an expensive school? No, partially because they cannot afford to send them. Their expectations aren't as high. The entire experience of growing up plays a factor. Money does influence some of these factors, but the real factors are the way we raise our children. Parents who realize this can have great performing children and be poor.

[LnGrrrR]

There is a means.

I'm not arguing there are. There are many means, in fact. Affirmative action is one of those means. (Not arguing whether it's "successful" or not, just arguing that its a means of allowing minorities upward mobility.)

My whole point this whole thread has been that minorities have less wealth, and as a consequence, suffer educationally. All the "I knew this one guy who was poor and still went to Harvard!" stories won't change that fact. Is there anyone arguing that whites own more wealth than minorities, both in total and on average? Is there anyone arguing that more wealth equals better education, on average?

[CosmicCowboy]

There's no solution, other than the obvious one of providing means to allow upward social mobility.


Hmmm. Are you saying this is something else government should provide? Above and beyond affirmative action?

[CuckingFunt]

What does it say when rich parents expect their children to achieve certain benchmarks and hold them to it? Do as many poor or middle class families expect their children to go to an expensive school? No, partially because they cannot afford to send them. Their expectations aren't as high. The entire experience of growing up plays a factor. Money does influence some of these factors, but the real factors are the way we raise our children. Parents who realize this can have great performing children and be poor.

You're completely dancing around that fact that even if/when poorer parents do have high expectations of their children and do instill high expectations within their children, expensive schools are still sometimes out of the question. That's too important a piece of this argument to just push aside.

[LnGrrrR]

Yes, but self esteem also comes from other factors. You can be poor and instill values in your children if you don't blame others for your position in life. Lead by example. Just because someone is financially poor doesn't mean their lives aren't rich.

Of course a poor and middle-class person can install values. But RICH CHILDREN DO BETTER EDUCATIONALLY?

Given that, are you arguing that rich parents do a better job of instilling values or not? Otherwise your above point makes no sense.


What does it say when rich parents expect their children to achieve certain benchmarks and hold them to it? Do as many poor or middle class families expect their children to go to an expensive school? No, partially because they cannot afford to send them. Their expectations aren't as high. The entire experience of growing up plays a factor. Money does influence some of these factors, but the real factors are the way we raise our children. Parents who realize this can have great performing children and be poor.

So, to sum up, you're saying that children of rich parents do better because they have more expectations placed on them. Is this correct?

[Wild Cobra]

You're completely dancing around that fact that even if/when poorer parents do have high expectations of their children and do instill high expectations within their children, expensive schools are still sometimes out of the question. That's too important a piece of this argument to just push aside.
How does that affect grades?

[LnGrrrR]

Hmmm. Are you saying this is something else government should provide? Above and beyond affirmative action?

Do you enjoy putting words in my mouth CC? :lol I've already posted a reply, but there are means out there already. There will always be wealthy people; there will always be poor people. Being wealthy provides inherent advantages.

I'm not going to argue about creation of wealth; I'm no economist. (Then again, half the economists disagree with the other half, so maybe I should.) I'd say that affirmative action, which having very visible drawbacks, worked in its primary function to promote wealth creation for minorities. I'm not going to argue about the efficacy of these actions, or whether better actions could have been taken. It just seems to me that affirmative action has succeeded in its primary goal.

If I knew a way to create wealth among minorities without ruffling feathers, I'd be making alot more money than I am today.

[CuckingFunt]

How does that affect grades?

Good question.

Are you suggesting that schools with lower grades on average have a student body who are each, individually, underperforming?

[LnGrrrR]

How does that affect grades?

Interesting. So, schools have little to no effect on the education a child receives? I would think that a better school would provide better education, ie. higher grades.

[Wild Cobra]

Good question.

Are you suggesting that schools with lower grades on average have a student body who are each, individually, underperforming?
Interesting. So, schools have little to no effect on the education a child receives? I would think that a better school would provide better education, ie. higher grades.
Unless I missed something, this argument started with children grades vs. wealth.

I was saying the money wasn't the fix to grades. That it is how the children are raised.

[LnGrrrR]

I was saying the money wasn't the fix to grades. That it is how the children are raised.

Given that wealth seems to be a strong factor in education (ie. more wealth = better grades, on average), do you think that rich children are raised better than poor and middle class children, on average?

[Wild Cobra]

Given that wealth seems to be a strong factor in education (ie. more wealth = better grades, on average), do you think that rich children are raised better than poor and middle class children, on average?
Not entirely, because it is a community thing too. Rather than the money going to well off neighborhoods, we have less disruptive children. More actually get accomplishment in classes that have less children who are troubled. I'll bet if you looked at an example of education between an intercity school and a rich community's school, the biggest difference will be the character of the children, who were influenced by their family and neighbors. I say it still boils down to social attitudes rather than money, but I agree that money does have an effect of social attitude. If schools today could discipline the disruptive students in class, maybe those who do have the desire to learn could.

[LnGrrrR]

Given that wealth seems to be a strong factor in education (ie. more wealth = better grades, on average), do you think that rich children are raised better than poor and middle class children, on average?



I'll bet if you looked at an example of education between an intercity school and a rich community's school, the biggest difference will be the character of the children, who were influenced by their family and neighbors. I say it still boils down to social attitudes rather than money, but I agree that money does have an effect of social attitude.

So then your answer to my question is "yes".

[DarrinS]

Why do you suppose that Asian and Indian children excel in school?

Super wealth?

[CosmicCowboy]

Why do you suppose that Asian and Indian children excel in school?

Super wealth?

Oh that just shows the success of affirmative action...:lol

[LnGrrrR]

Why do you suppose that Asian and Indian children excel in school?

Super wealth?

I have no clue. Also, that's a strawman. Are you disputing the studies that show higher wealth = more educated children or not?

[CosmicCowboy]

I have no clue. Also, that's a strawman. Are you disputing the studies that show higher wealth = more educated children or not?

I'm about to step out of this discussion but I really don't understand your point. We all agree there are multiple factors. You keep harping on wealth. Using that one dimensional logic you could also say that most wealthy people are white, wealthy kids are smarter, ergo white people are smarter. You are just playing argument games with one factor.

[LnGrrrR]

I'm about to step out of this discussion but I really don't understand your point. We all agree there are multiple factors. You keep harping on wealth. Using that one dimensional logic you could also say that most wealthy people are white, wealthy kids are smarter, ergo white people are smarter. You are just playing argument games with one factor.

That's ALMOST what I'm saying. Just replace "are smarter" with "have more access to educational opportunities" and you'll get my point.

As far as "argument games", you guys are the ones trying to twist around what I said. You stated that you didn't think money in Daddy's bank account played a factor, then you admitted it while simultaneously downplaying it. I'm saying it's a significant factor, and should be taken into account when trying to paint most poor people and/or minorities as a group that just wants to live on the government dole.

Does that account for some folks? Sure. There will always be some people trying to get the most out of the government they can; poor people trying to squeeze money on welfare, rich people trying to find loopholes to escape paying taxes.

But you can't go around saying "Minorities have as much opportunity as whites to get ahead" full period stop. They don't, and mainly (in my eyes) due to lack of wealth among minorities. Can they make it? Of course. But overall, they start at a very real disadvantage, however minor or major, when you take everything into account.

[LnGrrrR]

We all agree there are multiple factors.


Blacks and whites with equivalent education, skills, and ambition have equal opportunity in our society.

You left out wealth up there.

[The Reckoning]

look at the models young black kids look up to.

now look at the models indian, white and asian kids look up to.



bu..bu..but K'naan learned english from gansta rap

[George Gervin's Afro]

Why do you suppose that Asian and Indian children excel in school?

Super wealth?

parenting

[Wild Cobra]

parenting
Yes, parenting is the key, but there are peer forces too. I was in with the wrong group in my youth. Partied every night at a friend's who was an emancipated minor. Received strait A's in all my technical related classes and C's and D's in the others. I simply did no homework, completed my assignments during class, and aced my math, chemistry, physics, mechanics, drafting, etc. tests. English, history, etc. We even smoked weed on our lunch break. Sometimes I wish I tried. I probably would have graduated with a 4.00.

I know the harm of social pressures growing up, and matured later than I wish.

[Veterinarian]

look at the models young black kids look up to.

now look at the models indian, white and asian kids look up to.



bu..bu..but K'naan learned english from gansta rap

Shouldn't you be off somewhere fellating the Mookie Crew?

[spursncowboys]

If fellating is a real word, then I have a new word for my coming up deployment.

[LnGrrrR]

If fellating is a real word, then I have a new word for my coming up deployment.

It is. Where you going, Iraq or Afghanistan? :lol

[Wild Cobra]

It is. Where you going, Iraq or Afghanistan? :lol
Rumor has it the Navy has people running with that word more than other branches.

[spursncowboys]

It is. Where you going, Iraq or Afghanistan? :lol

Afghanistan in Aug.

[Wild Cobra]

Afghanistan in Aug.
Good luck, stay safe.

What type of unit?

[spursncowboys]

thanks
1st Squadron-61st cavalry regiment/ 506th regimental combat team/ 101st airborne

[Wild Cobra]

thanks
1st Squadron-61st cavalry regiment/ 506th regimental combat team/ 101st airborne
I've always loved the emblem of the Screaming Eagles.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/US_101st_Airborne_Division_patch.svg/244px-US_101st_Airborne_Division_patch.svg.png

[Wild Cobra]

From my favorite unit I served in:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/11Signal_Brigade.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/11_SIG_BDE_DUI.gif

11th Signal Brigade (http://www.netcom.army.mil/11th/index.htm)

[LnGrrrR]

None of my patches have been particularly cool, sadly. I do love the EOD crab though.

[spursncowboys]

LnGr: you were eod? I wanted to change to that mos but don't think i'll be able to.

[spursncowboys]

141st IN BNhttp://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:w6C5rciWB9C0SM:http://www.custermen.com/Reference/Uniforms/DUI_Pins/DUI_141IR_36ID.jpg
36 ID (TX NG)http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:IrIgc-r8S02icM:http://image.absoluteastronomy.com/images/encyclopediaimages/3/36/36th_infantry_division_ssi.svg.png
504th BfSBhttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:h4sw5NCTc3MVjM:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/35/504thMIBrigade.svg/450px-504thMIBrigade.svg.png
1-61 Cavhttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:00_qKRee3F_zpM:http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/images/1-61cav.gif

[210Max]

What I see today is that most blacks are racists, and almost no whites are.

Think about it. Black parents keep telling their kids that we are the bad guys.

When will the blacks end racism?

lol you ever go to stormfront

[LnGrrrR]

LnGr: you were eod? I wanted to change to that mos but don't think i'll be able to.

I first tried out for EOD. Made it about halfway through the course, then failed out. I was young and probably didn't study enough, but maybe it's a blessing in disguise. I did get through the demolition part of the course at Eglin AFB... final day of it we did a 1,000 lb demo shot.

When I failed out, I reclassed into Tech Control (ie network technician). I enjoyed the job, so I stayed with it. Plus my wife would leave me if I ever went Special Tactics.

[Wild Cobra]

lol you ever go to stormfront
What is it? A city in Texas?

[210Max]

What is it? A city in Texas?
A forum...google it. They claim to not be racists and claim that all minorities have advantages and that it's a white struggle out there. They share a lot of your ideas. You'll fit in well over there, bro.

[Wild Cobra]

A forum...google it. They claim to not be racists and claim that all minorities have advantages and that it's a white struggle out there. They share a lot of your ideas. You'll fit in well over there, bro.
Ha. ha...

Real funny.