National Debt

[CosmicCowboy]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jul/7/us-marks-3rd-largest-single-day-debt-boost/

http://media.washtimes.com/media/image/2010/02/03/debt_clock_s640x524.jpg?357e5d4286a904d61e5ee9d400 e0bd4390e9a4d4

The nation's debt leapt $166 billion in a single day last week, the third-largest increase in U.S. history, and it comes at a time when Congress is balking over higher spending and debt has become a key policy battleground.

The one-day increase for June 30 totaled $165,931,038,264.30 - bigger than the entire annual deficit for fiscal year 2007 and larger than the $140 billion in savings the new health care bill will produce over its first 10 years. The figure works out to nearly $1,500 for every U.S. household, or more than 10 times the median daily household income.

Daily debt calculations jump and fall, and big shifts are common. But all three of the biggest one-day debt increases have occurred under the tenure of President Obama, and all of the top six have been in the past two years - an indication of just how quickly the pace of deficit spending has risen under Mr. Obama and President George W. Bush.

"What matters is the overall trend line, and the overall trend line is shooting up," said Robert Bixby, executive director of the Concord Coalition, a bipartisan deficit watchdog group, who said it is one more reason for a fiscal wake-up call.

Fears over red ink have stalled key parts of Mr. Obama's agenda in Congress in recent weeks, including his push for another round of stimulus spending. Just last week, House Democrats had to use a tricky parliamentary tactic to pass an emergency war-spending bill, aid for teachers and new spending caps.

On Wednesday, the Congressional Budget Office said the government has recorded a $1 trillion deficit for the first nine months of fiscal 2010, which began Oct. 1. That's slightly down from 2009's record $1.1 trillion deficit at this point.

CBO said revenues are doing slightly better this year than last year, while spending is down about $73 billion, mainly because the government made giant payments last year to bail out Wall Street, but did not have similar expenses this year. Other spending is higher, including unemployment benefits, which have jumped nearly 50 percent.

Deficits are the difference between what the government raises in revenue versus what it spends each year, while debt is the accumulation of those deficits over many years.

The Treasury Department calculates the country's debt position each day, and big rises and falls are not unusual. In fact, since hitting $13.203 trillion on June 30, the figure has since slipped $25 billion to settle at $13.178 trillion as of Tuesday, the latest day for which figures are available.

June 30 is always a major day for new debt, since debt held by one part of the government to another - for example, IOUs to the Social Security trust fund - are rolled over, a spokeswoman for the Bureau of the Public Debt said.

[jack sommerset]

:toast Obama

[CosmicCowboy]

Meh. It's the whole fucking bunch of em...Bush included. Obama is just worse than the average bear.

[George Gervin's Afro]

:toast Obama


CBO said revenues are doing slightly better this year than last year, while spending is down about $73 billion, mainly because the government made giant payments last year to bail out Wall Street, but did not have similar expenses this year. Other spending is higher, including unemployment benefits, which have jumped nearly 50 percent.

Nice of you to congratulate Obama for the reduction in deficit..

[George Gervin's Afro]

Meh. It's the whole fucking bunch of em...Bush included. Obama is just worse than the average bear.

jack was born on 1/20/09

[CosmicCowboy]

Nice of you to congratulate Obama for the reduction in deficit..

Yeah right. It would twice that if Obama got everything he wanted from congress. Nice try though.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Yeah right. It would twice that if Obama got everything he wanted from congress. Nice try though.

So is Congress to blame or Obama?

[CosmicCowboy]

So is Congress to blame or Obama?

c) All of the above

[CavsSuperFan]

Q: Have you heard about McDonald's' new Obama Value Meal?
A: Order anything you like and the guy behind you has to pay for it.

[CavsSuperFan]

Q: What was the most positive result of the "Cash for Clunkers" program?
A: It took 65% of the Obama bumper stickers off the road.

[CavsSuperFan]

Q: What's the difference between Obama and his dog, Bo?
A: Bo has papers.

[CosmicCowboy]

Q: Have you heard about McDonald's' new Obama Value Meal?
A: Order anything you like and the guy behind you has to pay for it.

:lmao

[Bender]

:lmao
all three of those jokes were funny :lol

[Wild Cobra]

:toast Obama
Yep, at least he's number 1 at something!

[Wild Cobra]

Nice of you to congratulate Obama for the reduction in deficit..
You want up to congratulate him for a smaller deficit than last year when it's still higher than any deficit of any past president?

I'll bet if you add last years deficit and interest together, it is still less than this years deficit plus interest. You have to remember, deficit spending does not include the interest still owed, and it jumped radically.

[Wild Cobra]

jack was born on 1/20/09
And Ringo was born on 7/7/40.

Just mentioned that because I didn't know until this morning he turned 70. I didn't know he was that much older than me.

[Wild Cobra]

So is Congress to blame or Obama?
They both are. Congress presents the spending to the president to authorize. He authorized it.

[Wild Cobra]

Q: Have you heard about McDonald's' new Obama Value Meal?
A: Order anything you like and the guy behind you has to pay for it.
Yesp, that's just his style.

Q: What was the most positive result of the "Cash for Clunkers" program?
A: It took 65% of the Obama bumper stickers off the road.
That is almost true!

Q: What's the difference between Obama and his dog, Bo?
A: Bo has papers.
This one is in totally wrong. The evidence is pretty solid that he's legal.

[LnGrrrR]

:lmao

I agree, that one was pretty funny :)

[baseline bum]

Q: Have you heard about McDonald's' new Obama Value Meal?
A: Order anything you like and the guy behind you has to pay for it.

:lol

[Parker2112]

Quick question: why doesnt Bush and the republican party get credit for the total cost of the Iraq war?

And is this even factored into our budget, Back then or now?

It was a sham to make money for war profiteers, including everyone in the whitehouse most likely...so another words it was the biggest bogus expenditure of the last 30 years...

[Parker2112]

how about 732,000,000,000 worth so far...damn, seems like we could have a hydrogen economy up and running for that. Oh but wait, some folks in big oil and big defense wouldnt have been able to cash in...then again no one would have had to die over fuel cells.

[TDMVPDPOY]

legalize smack, and govt becomes main supplier undercutting the imported shit from the south...

sell worldwide...win win,

hey does that clock also count interest payments also?

[Parker2112]

legalize smack, and govt becomes main supplier undercutting the imported shit from the south...

sell worldwide...win win,

hey does that clock also count interest payments also?

Man, CIA has been supplying since the 80's...the american people dont get a cut though.

I dunno about interest, but that damn thing keeps moving at light speed.

[boutons_deux]

http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms//12-16-09bud-rev6-28-10-f1.jpg

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3036

The conservatives and Repugs are lying, AS ALWAYS, by sticking Obama with the false problem of the national deficit when the Repug/conservative policies going back 30+ years are the real cause.

[CosmicCowboy]

http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms//12-16-09bud-rev6-28-10-f1.jpg

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3036

The conservatives and Repugs are lying, AS ALWAYS, by sticking Obama with the false problem of the national deficit when the Repug/conservative policies going back 30+ years are the real cause.

He wanted to be President.

Like it or not, after 2 years it's his problem.

[boutons_deux]

"2 years it's his problem"

It's his responsiblity, shared with Congress, to address the LONG-TERM deficit, but SHORT-TERM, the overwhelming, deficit-causing, local/state-govt-imparing problem is the deficit from the Banksters' Great Depression. There, the Repugs' false message of "prevent recovery, kill safety net, the deficit is the priority" is fucking up Obama's attempt to keep the depression from deepening and from being shortened.

The Repug want the worst possible economy they can create and extend until the mid-terms.

btw, the Deficit Commission is a fucking joke.

[Wild Cobra]

Quick question: why doesnt Bush and the republican party get credit for the total cost of the Iraq war?

And is this even factored into our budget, Back then or now?

The whole cost probably isn't factored in because we already have costs involved for a standing military force. Soldiers are using more armaments and manpower than just in training exercises. It's these added costs that we see, not the total cost that we would spend on the military anyway.

[Wild Cobra]

how about 732,000,000,000 worth so far...damn, seems like we could have a hydrogen economy up and running for that. Oh but wait, some folks in big oil and big defense wouldnt have been able to cash in...then again no one would have had to die over fuel cells.
You're joking, right?

Any idea how expensive a hydrogen economy would be?

That might be enough to subsidize hydrogen for two years.

[Parker2112]

The whole cost probably isn't factored in because we already have costs involved for a standing military force. Soldiers are using more armaments and manpower than just in training exercises. It's these added costs that we see, not the total cost that we would spend on the military anyway.

Im speaking of repubs/conservatives who call obama an overspender. Bush spent big on Iraq, something Obama is still tied too..

[Parker2112]

You're joking, right?

Any idea how expensive a hydrogen economy would be?

That might be enough to subsidize hydrogen for two years.

What are you a commie? who said anything about subsidizing an entire energy sector?

We should be able to rely on the free market after we invest the first trillion, right?

[CosmicCowboy]

What are you a commie? who said anything about subsidizing an entire energy sector?

We should be able to rely on the free market after we invest the first trillion, right?

Sometimes money can't trump physics. We could invest 10 trillion in research and still wouldn't have an economical anti-gravity machine.

That H2O bond is an energy pig bitch to break.

[Parker2112]

That H2O bond is an energy pig bitch to break.

So is big oil's grip on America.

[spursncowboys]

What are you a commie? who said anything about subsidizing an entire energy sector?

We should be able to rely on the free market after we invest the first trillion, right?
We(thru the govt.) decide what the private sector does and then we leave them alone?

[George Gervin's Afro]

We(thru the govt.) decide what the private sector does and then we leave them alone?

the govt can start the transition..absolutely

[Cant_Be_Faded]

The entire debt projections are made with an assumption that GDP will continue to grow at a certain level. If we do not meet those growth exceptions and/or interest rates on debt begin to rise, this country is going to hell in a handbasket.

Massive massive hyperinflation is the only way for the government to dig the country out of the hole its created for us.

[Parker2112]

We(thru the govt.) decide what the private sector does and then we leave them alone?

Absolutely. Its called "incentivizing"

When we want more people buying homes, we give tax incentives. when we want people putting solar panels, we give rebates. If we want R&D in the private sector we give grants and low interest loans to brave, ingenous american souls who want to propel this country into the next generation of power production.

I cant stand the bad-ass flag waving muther f&*#%s who sell our business community short by saying that the govt would have to keep a new energy economy afloat,

We can make this shit happen. Read your history books conservatives. your forefathers could run rings around your collective asses. do something to benefit your kids.

[spursncowboys]

Absolutely. Its called "incentivizing"

When we want more people buying homes, we give tax incentives. when we want people putting solar panels, we give rebates. If we want R&D in the private sector we give grants and low interest loans to brave, ingenous american souls who want to propel this country into the next generation of power production.

I cant stand the bad-ass flag waving muther f&*#%s who sell our business community short by saying that the govt would have to keep a new energy economy afloat,

We can make this shit happen. Read your history books conservatives. your forefathers could run rings around your collective asses. do something to benefit your kids.

tax incentives are great ideas, except it encourages the use of taxes to allow the govt. to manipulate the private sector.

[spursncowboys]

where would the trillion go?

[Parker2112]

where would the trillion go?

grants and low interest loans to brave, ingenous american souls who want to propel this country into the next generation. doesnt have to be a full trillion.

[InRareForm]

country of spend spend spend!

when will we save?

when we default


:depressed

[Nbadan]

Hey CC. who is the biggest U.S. creditor again?



(hint) not china...

[Wild Cobra]

Im speaking of repubs/conservatives who call obama an overspender. Bush spent big on Iraq, something Obama is still tied too..
So what? Did a democrat congress authorize the spending or not? Were democrats vocal in saying we needed to go there or not?

You cannot blame everything on just the president. Spending starts in congress.
wartime spending is acceptable by the constitution. How do you constitutionally justify bailouts, especially as big as they are?

[Wild Cobra]

What are you a commie? who said anything about subsidizing an entire energy sector?

We should be able to rely on the free market after we invest the first trillion, right?
Oh./..

I see, you don't understand the cost implications of hydrogen.

Did you know it takes 44 kilo-watt-hours of electricity to get enough hydrogen for the equivalent of one gallon of gasoline?

How much do you pay for a kilo-watt-hour of electricity?

Where will this power come from? Adding more coal power plants to produce the electricity maybe?

Don't go off and say there are other ways to make hydrogen. Yes there are, but they involve leftover chemicals, or are in small quantities as a byproduct of other processes.

Right now, if we already had a hydrogen infrastructure in place, it would probably cost twice as much as gasoline.

[Wild Cobra]

So is big oil's grip on America.
You definitely need chemistry lessons. You are dealing in magical concepts that don't exist.

[spursncowboys]

grants and low interest loans to brave, ingenous american souls who want to propel this country into the next generation. doesnt have to be a full trillion.

So we will have to create another government bureaucracy to decide who will distribute this money out. then you have politicians politiking: No corporations, no rich people. Then insert the lobbyists: 5000 pages where no one can understand. Corporations put things in for them. Unions put in that only union members can do it, etc.

Once the company or person gets it, thru govt funding, how much of that invention is his/her intellectual property? Would you make it where that person cannot patend it?
How long would we be funding? Would we start doing things like farm subsidies where we would pay people not to create other harmful energy?

Before the TBTF bailout, there were many electric car companies who got bought out and shut down because they didn't get a bailout. They were being created because of the price hike in the oil. A supply and demand reaction in a free market.

Ford's gross profit last year was 18 bil. Their selling exp was 13. http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=F+Income+Statement&annual

[Parker2112]

So what? Did a democrat congress authorize the spending or not? Were democrats vocal in saying we needed to go there or not?

You cannot blame everything on just the president. Spending starts in congress.
wartime spending is acceptable by the constitution. How do you constitutionally justify bailouts, especially as big as they are?

Was the whole fucking country not misled by the corrupt intelligence community...one that Cheney and Wolfowitz had huge ties to?

If Congress did rely on some bogus misinformation by the CIA and Bush admin, then they arent accountable.

Besides, CONSERVATIVES ARENT CRYING OUT THAT DEM CONGRESS IS COMMUNIST/SOCIALIST. SO IF OBAMA IS TO BLAME NOW, BUSH WAS TO BLAME THEN. wear that shit, hypocrite.

[CosmicCowboy]

Hey CC. who is the biggest U.S. creditor again?



(hint) not china...

The Social Security "trust fund" of course. It's all a scam. Current benefits have to be paid out of current revenues and new borrowing.

[Parker2112]

So we will have to create another government bureaucracy to decide who will distribute this money out. then you have politicians politiking: No corporations, no rich people. Then insert the lobbyists: 5000 pages where no one can understand. Corporations put things in for them. Unions put in that only union members can do it, etc.

Once the company or person gets it, thru govt funding, how much of that invention is his/her intellectual property? Would you make it where that person cannot patend it?
How long would we be funding? Would we start doing things like farm subsidies where we would pay people not to create other harmful energy?

Before the TBTF bailout, there were many electric car companies who got bought out and shut down because they didn't get a bailout. They were being created because of the price hike in the oil. A supply and demand reaction in a free market.

Ford's gross profit last year was 18 bil. Their selling exp was 13. http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=F+Income+Statement&annual

Gov is never the option. Agreed. But better to deal with agencies and beurocracy than to send our young men off to die so old men can get richer.

Keep your eye on the ball.

[spursncowboys]

So what? Did a democrat congress authorize the spending or not? Were democrats vocal in saying we needed to go there or not?

You cannot blame everything on just the president. Spending starts in congress.
wartime spending is acceptable by the constitution. How do you constitutionally justify bailouts, especially as big as they are?

And then complain about the big bad corporations. Unions and Cartels are the worst things to happen to a free market.

[spursncowboys]

Gov is never the option. Agreed. But better to deal with agencies and beurocracy than to send our young men off to die so old men can get richer.

Keep your eye on the ball.

who's getting rich? what does that have to do with anything on this topic? Show me a govt. that can successfully a. not go to war b. when going to war doesn't send the most healthy of their population. I rather have an 18 yr old than a 50 yr old next to me.

[Parker2112]

investing in alternatives would have been much better than lining bush/cheney/haliburton pockets by letting them use our countries military to conquer a foriegn nation and then getting govt contracts to rebuild and exploit the people and oil reserves.

We couldnt afford that war, we are broke and showing signs of collapse, and the oil money that was bought with blood is not coming back to our country's taxpayers...its going into the pockets of shareholders of oil and defense...those in the know who know that oil and defense pays big. it always has.

[spursncowboys]

investing in alternatives would have been much better than lining bush/cheney/haliburton pockets by letting them use our countries military to conquer a foriegn nation and then getting govt contracts to rebuild and exploit the people and oil reserves.

We couldnt afford that war, we are broke and showing signs of collapse, and the oil money that was bought with blood is not coming back to our country's taxpayers...its going into the pockets of shareholders of oil and defense...those in the know who know that oil and defense pays big. it always has.

the only ones on record of receiving funds personally from other govt's are CLinton, Carter and Gore.

[boutons_deux]

"receiving funds personally from other govt's are CLinton, Carter and Gore"

Compare those sums with the $Ts handed to the MIC war machine by neo-c*nt Repugs with the bogus, botched wars dumped on Magic Negro.

[Parker2112]

who's getting rich? what does that have to do with anything on this topic? Show me a govt. that can successfully a. not go to war b. when going to war doesn't send the most healthy of their population. I rather have an 18 yr old than a 50 yr old next to me.

War is about $. Think about this: for all the folks in the US who are making money in this down economy? Now let me give the answer: 1) Big Oil. they dropped 20 billion without batting an eye. that tells you about thier profits lately. 2) Defense industry. they are providing taxpayers with the baddest army on earth, getting fat gov contracts, and have been raking it in since the Iraq war kicked off.

Now think about this: for all the folks in the Bush admin, where were the ties to big business? Well, lets see...they had ties to oil and the big players in the middle east...they had ties to defense contractors in Haliburton....and they have generations of ties to the CIA, who provided the bogus info needed to raid Iraq's oil supply.

And the private businesses that they own stock in are raking in the dough still, even after they left office. I venture to say they mde hundreds of millions, they being the Bush family and Cheney, and Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz, etc

[spursncowboys]

"receiving funds personally from other govt's are CLinton, Carter and Gore"

Compare those sums with the $Ts handed to the MIC war machine by neo-c*nt Repugs with the bogus, botched wars dumped on Magic Negro.

The war that he wanted to quit, but now takes credit for winning. Or the war that he said we were losing but since he took over has gotten worse without any advancement? How much of those T went to Bush and Cheney? Who else would have done the things that these war machine companies, who employ more Americans, with health benefits, than all the eco-Nazi companies combined.

[Parker2112]

the only ones on record of receiving funds personally from other govt's are CLinton, Carter and Gore.
read the above post.

As an american citizen, if you are, you need to know how war works. when you see folks talking about going to war, ask them how much stock they own in defense corps. If they are invading middle eastern countries ask how much stock they own in oil corps. If they are railing on drill baby drill, ask if they own any controlling interests in domestic oil corps.

follow the $

[Parker2112]

"receiving funds personally from other govt's are CLinton, Carter and Gore"

Compare those sums with the $Ts handed to the MIC war machine by neo-c*nt Repugs with the bogus, botched wars dumped on Magic Negro.

lmao

[DarrinS]

read the above post.

As an american citizen, if you are, you need to know how war works. when you see folks talking about going to war, ask them how much stock they own in defense corps. If they are invading middle eastern countries ask how much stock they own in oil corps. If they are railing on drill baby drill, ask if they own any controlling interests in domestic oil corps.

follow the $


Millions of Americans probably own these stocks if they have a mutual fund.

Next.

[spursncowboys]

War is about $.Think about this: for all the folks in the US who are making money in this down economy? Now let me give the answer: 1) Big Oil. they dropped 20 billion without batting an eye. that tells you about thier profits lately. 2) Defense industry. they are providing taxpayers with the baddest army on earth, getting fat gov contracts, and have been raking it in since the Iraq war kicked off. So then we have failed in every war we have been in. Keeping resources out of a world-wide cartel of communist countries is not a bad thing. Especially seeing the track record and the historical fact that economies do not grow with communism of any kind.

[Parker2112]

Millions of Americans probably own these stocks if they have a mutual fund.

Next.


Bitch please. Owning a measley few shares is not the same as the huge blocks of shares owned by the families who have been involved in Oil since the early 1900's. Like the Bush family.

How the fuck can you compare the average stockholder with oil magnates and oil families who DINE WITH SAUDI PRINCES. Generations of Bush men have had business dealings with the most wealthy oil men in the world. Generations of Bush men have had ties at the highest levels of govt. And now, future generations of the Bush family are guaranteed to have shares coming in from the American move on Iraqs oil supply.

[spursncowboys]

read the above post.

As an american citizen, if you are, you need to know how war works. when you see folks talking about going to war, ask them how much stock they own in defense corps. If they are invading middle eastern countries ask how much stock they own in oil corps. If they are railing on drill baby drill, ask if they own any controlling interests in domestic oil corps.

follow the $

I supported both wars we are in and think we should do something they would consider an act of war with Iran. I am also for drilling from all over, from the Northern shores of Alaska to the coastlines of Massachusetts to the Rockies.

[Wild Cobra]

Was the whole fucking country not misled by the corrupt intelligence community...one that Cheney and Wolfowitz had huge ties to?

I'm sorry if Nancy Pelosi mislead you. She was part of the band-wagon, and had full briefinsg.


If Congress did rely on some bogus misinformation by the CIA and Bush admin, then they aren't accountable.

But they didn't. they rely on information by merit, and just because some can be discredited does not mean all was wrong.


Besides, CONSERVATIVES ARENT CRYING OUT THAT DEM CONGRESS IS COMMUNIST/SOCIALIST. SO IF OBAMA IS TO BLAME NOW, BUSH WAS TO BLAME THEN. wear that shit, hypocrite.
LOL...

Why are you a broken record of liberal propaganda?

[spursncowboys]

Bitch please. Owning a measley few shares is not the same as the huge blocks of shares owned by the families who have been involved in Oil since the early 1900's. Like the Bush family.

How the fuck can you compare the average stockholder with oil magnates and oil families who DINE WITH SAUDI PRINCES. Generations of Bush men have had business dealings with the most wealthy oil men in the world. Generations of Bush men have had ties at the highest levels of govt. And now, future generations of the Bush family are guaranteed to have shares coming in from the American move on Iraqs oil supply.

Are you for some successful families that pass their wealth on, or do you want to tax more than 40% of someone's wealth when they die, so as to redistribute wealth?

[Parker2112]

So then we have failed in every war we have been in. Keeping resources out of a world-wide cartel of communist countries is not a bad thing. Especially seeing the track record and the historical fact that economies do not grow with communism of any kind.

"Communists" are the old "terrorists." they are the boogeyman. they are something concocted to scare the sheep public enough so that sheep public runs crying to the war pigs to protect them. then the war profiteers jump in and profit.

War is the biggest wealth maker in the world. But its the suppliers and bankrollers who stand to make the money.

I used to be like you. When a vietnam vet told me one time "if you want to know why we are fighting, follow the money." I had to learn what that meant.

[Wild Cobra]

investing in alternatives would have been much better than lining bush/cheney/haliburton pockets by letting them use our countries military to conquer a foriegn nation and then getting govt contracts to rebuild and exploit the people and oil reserves.

We couldnt afford that war, we are broke and showing signs of collapse, and the oil money that was bought with blood is not coming back to our country's taxpayers...its going into the pockets of shareholders of oil and defense...those in the know who know that oil and defense pays big. it always has.
Do you have a clue how much money Halliburtion lost because of their war contracts?

[Wild Cobra]

We couldnt afford that war, we are broke and showing signs of collapse, and the oil money that was bought with blood is not coming back to our country's taxpayers...its going into the pockets of shareholders of oil and defense...those in the know who know that oil and defense pays big. it always has.
Bullshit. The economy wasn't robust, but was in no danger either. The economy don't go into the crapper until democrats took congress in the 2006 elections.

[Wild Cobra]

Parker, after reading the rest of your posts in this thread, I have concluded you are among the top 5 stupidest posters in SpursTalk that I have come across.

For that reason, I will probably ignore most your posts for now on.

[spursncowboys]

"Communists" are the old "terrorists." they are the boogeyman. they are something concocted to scare the sheep public enough so that sheep public runs crying to the war pigs to protect them. then the war profiteers jump in and profit.

War is the biggest wealth maker in the world. But its the suppliers and bankrollers who stand to make the money.

I used to be like you. When a vietnam vet told me one time "if you want to know why we are fighting, follow the money." I had to learn what that meant.

Yeah it was the money. It had nothing to do with it being the most strategic country to fight off communism. I don't think the hundreds of millions of people murdered by their own govt is boogeyman.
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html

[Parker2112]

Bullshit. The economy wasn't robust, but was in no danger either. The economy don't go into the crapper until democrats took congress in the 2006 elections.

Bullshit. The war wasnt a one time expenditure, as you insuinate, and we are still paying for it at a time when we cant afford it.

http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms//12-16-09bud-rev6-28-10-f1.jpg

[spursncowboys]

Parker, after reading the rest of your posts in this thread, I have concluded you are among the top 5 stupidest posters in SpursTalk that I have come across.

For that reason, I will probably ignore most your posts for now on.

:tu

[Parker2112]

Parker, after reading the rest of your posts in this thread, I have concluded you are among the top 5 stupidest posters in SpursTalk that I have come across.

For that reason, I will probably ignore most your posts for now on.

Whatever keeps you from getting yor ass handed to you...

[Parker2112]

Feel free to ignore the facts in that chart above as well. Feel free to ignore the facts entirely. This is the norm with conservatives...so it is understandable

[spursncowboys]

I bet you never got challenged in college with all these views.

[Parker2112]

I bet you never got challenged in college with all these views.

Law School either.

[Parker2112]

oh wait, law school is all about argument...

[spursncowboys]

There is nothing worse than a lawyer interested in politics. No offense.

[Wild Cobra]

Feel free to ignore the facts in that chart above as well. Feel free to ignore the facts entirely. This is the norm with conservatives...so it is understandable
LOL

OMG, that's what I mean. You are an absolute idiot with a room temperature IQ!

"Ignore the facts in that chart..."

My God... What facts? Those are predictions. Even 2009 won't be reconciled until something next year at the earliest.

Fucking dumshit.

Keep up you idiotic posts, and every now and they I will hand you your ass. There is no way in hell you are smart enough to hand me my ass.

[Parker2112]

LOL

OMG, that's what I mean. You are an absolute idiot with a room temperature IQ!

"Ignore the facts in that chart..."

My God... What facts? Those are predictions. Even 2009 won't be reconciled until something next year at the earliest.

Fucking dumshit.

Keep up you idiotic posts, and every now and they I will hand you your ass. There is no way in hell you are smart enough to hand me my ass.

You have never left a debate/argument with me with the upper hand. As a matter of fact, I find that you are good for very little other than spouting the same rhetoric that Fox news spouts every day...so your worth about as much. I thought you were going put me on ignore? That would be better for you, but when it comes to me, Id prefer to keep you on full blast

[Parker2112]

There is nothing worse than a lawyer interested in politics. No offense.

politics is not policy. policy is where my interest lies. politics are killing this country. learn the difference.

[Parker2112]

Are you for some successful families that pass their wealth on, or do you want to tax more than 40% of someone's wealth when they die, so as to redistribute wealth?

are you for american men and women dying to line the pockets of a few of the wealthiest families in the nation/world?

[Parker2112]

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2005/Cheneys_stock_options_rose_3281_last_1011.html

You two need to think about learning good citizenship.

[spursncowboys]

are you for american men and women dying to line the pockets of a few of the wealthiest families in the nation/world?

how do men and women die to line the pockets of a few?

[Parker2112]

how do men and women die to line the pockets of a few?

americna servicemen and women die. Big oil and Big defense make money. But the real story is the mony raked in by investors/shareholders.

Cheney's Halliburton stock options rose 3,281% last year, senator finds
RAW STORY (http://rawstory.com/)
Print This (javascript:document.getElementById("frm_print_me").submit();) | Email This (http://rawstory.com/email_story.php?sid=1300)

An analysis released by a Democratic senator found that Vice President Dick Cheney's Halliburton stock options have risen 3,281 percent in the last year, RAW STORY (http://rawstory.com/) can reveal.
Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) asserts that Cheney's options -- worth $241,498 a year ago -- are now valued at more than $8 million. The former CEO of the oil and gas services juggernaut, Cheney has pledged to give proceeds to charity.

[Parker2112]

open your eyes, spursncowboys

[Parker2112]

Do you have a clue how much money Halliburtion lost because of their war contracts?


americna servicemen and women die. Big oil and Big defense make money. But the real story is the mony raked in by investors/shareholders.

Cheney's Halliburton stock options rose 3,281% last year, senator finds
RAW STORY (http://rawstory.com/)
Print This (http://javascript<b></b>:document.getElementById("frm_print_me").submit();) | Email This (http://rawstory.com/email_story.php?sid=1300)

An analysis released by a Democratic senator found that Vice President Dick Cheney's Halliburton stock options have risen 3,281 percent in the last year, RAW STORY (http://rawstory.com/) can reveal.
Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) asserts that Cheney's options -- worth $241,498 a year ago -- are now valued at more than $8 million. The former CEO of the oil and gas services juggernaut, Cheney has pledged to give proceeds to charity.

Wild Cobras Ass handed to him.

[Parker2112]

BTW, that was for 2004-2005, and the quote is from the article cited above. And the SILENCE IS DEAFENING. Chalk one up for the good guys.

[Wild Cobra]

Wild Cobras Ass handed to him.
LOL...

You kill me with your stupidity.

Did you see what he does with the profits? Did you know he got all this while he worked for them?

I guess you wouldn't be happy unless all republican politicians shed all their assets and lead a life of poverty.

Did you know, the more you read Raw Story, the more IQ points you lose?

Besides, not only is the story 5 years old, the three stock options have expired.

[spursncowboys]

lol parker.

[spursncowboys]

Parker: you realize WC and I have both gone to war?
EDIT: took out the douchebag part.

[Ignignokt]

Such a silly argument. Not denying that it's possible that monied interest was the justification for war, but that is some weak factual evidence.

If cynicism is justifiable evidence, then we can believe that agw is just a law to enrich al gore's pockets, and that bill clinton's earned fortune from the chicoms did illustrate that he sold us out for campaing contributions.

Fortunately for you, this is not ample evidence of anything.

[Parker2112]

You know what? I will take you at your word and I will never disrespect either of you ever again. You guys deserve nothing but the utmost respect. Honestly, if this is true I am sorry I ever disrespected Wild Cobra in the first place.

You guys carried out your jobs. But I believe with all my hearts that the directives that put you in harms way were carried out for the gain of a few. I encourage you guys to do more investigation. There are, and always have been, very powerful interests at work that propel us to war.

Honestly, the people that fight are young, they dont think to ask the questions necessary to get to the bottom of things. And I am not saying this is the case with either of you. But the truth remains.

[Parker2112]

Bottom line: keep asking questions. Keep seeking answers. My friend who lost his mind in vietnam didnt question the war till years later. then he taught me the true reasons for war

[spursncowboys]

parker: sorry about being one of those dicks who bring up the I was there so it means more crap. It infuriated me when college kids would tell me if I supported the GWOT, then I should join up. I didn't take anything you said personal. I totally disagree with it, and as a non-commissioned officer, I don't worry about that. I just have to worry about training the men to be ready to go when our elected officials decide it.

[boutons_deux]

"you realize WC and I have both gone to war"

Excellent, you're immunized against intelligence and critical thinking, and of course, you're more valuable, better, truer citizen than other Americans who are 2nd class after the vets, to whom other Amerians must boot kiss.

While hating govt and wanting to destroy it, do you ever question that its decisions and reasons for going to war are pure bullshit. You feel no cognitive dissonance? You don't feel like a sucker for your self-proclaimed patriotism being duped into bullshit war-making which serves only, which was started only to enrich the MIC machine, spread America's economic imperialism, and enable corporate resource grabbing?

[Parker2112]

"you realize WC and I have both gone to war"

Excellent, you're immunized against intelligence and critical thinking, and of course, you're more valuable, better, truer citizen than other Americans who are 2nd class after the vets, to whom other Amerians must boot kiss.

While hating govt and wanting to destroy it, do you ever question that its decisions and reasons for going to war are pure bullshit. You feel no cognitive dissonance? You don't feel like a sucker for your self-proclaimed patriotism being duped into bullshit war-making which serves only, which was started only to enrich the MIC machine, spread America's economic imperialism, and enable corporate resource grabbing?

It took me the course of 5 years to ask the appropriate questions and come to the truth: that our government is being commandeered by the almighty dollar, and that the war was an extension of that.

The important part is getting the opposing view heard.

[Parker2112]

parker: sorry about being one of those dicks who bring up the I was there so it means more crap. It infuriated me when college kids would tell me if I supported the GWOT, then I should join up. I didn't take anything you said personal. I totally disagree with it, and as a non-commissioned officer, I don't worry about that. I just have to worry about training the men to be ready to go when our elected officials decide it.

spursncowboys: read about the profit made from war. read about war profitteers. Every civilization/generation has had them. read about the Bush family, all the way back to Prescott Bush, and his attempt to unseat FDR. Ask questions like: what is it that makes Texas so recession proof?

draw the correlations surrounding GB Sr., from big oil, to the CIA, to the industrial military complex. Find a good explanation of how greed leads to sending troops into harms way. As my vietnam veteran friend Dale says, "If you want to know why we fight, follow the money."

[LnGrrrR]

While hating govt and wanting to destroy it, do you ever question that its decisions and reasons for going to war are pure bullshit. You feel no cognitive dissonance? You don't feel like a sucker for your self-proclaimed patriotism being duped into bullshit war-making which serves only, which was started only to enrich the MIC machine, spread America's economic imperialism, and enable corporate resource grabbing?

Bd, just wondering, do you think all wars are unjust?

[LnGrrrR]

Honestly, the people that fight are young, they dont think to ask the questions necessary to get to the bottom of things. And I am not saying this is the case with either of you. But the truth remains.

Eh, it's not like it's either or. A war CAN be fought for good reasons, while ALSO serving to line the pockets of those who start it.

I won't say that military people are dumb and can't think for themselves, because that's obviously untrue. However, leadership does promote of following your orders (assuming they're lawful) even if you don't agree with them, because if you don't, then morale and followership break down.

[Parker2112]

Bd, just wondering, do you think all wars are unjust?

only since WWII...we were justified there. But there were people in the US making money from the Nazis even then. War profiteers and traitors.

[Wild Cobra]

I won't say that military people are dumb and can't think for themselves, because that's obviously untrue.
No kidding. If anyone actually checks the statistics, the average military person is smarter than the average civilian.

[Parker2112]

No kidding. If anyone actually checks the statistics, the average military person is smarter than the average civilian.

People in the military are just normal people who choose to serve. Your not innately superior in any way. But you deserve respect for your service.

[Parker2112]

No kidding. If anyone actually checks the statistics, the average military person is smarter than the average civilian.

read about the profit made from war. read about war profitteers. Every civilization/generation has had them. read about the Bush family, all the way back to Prescott Bush, and his attempt to unseat FDR. Ask questions like: what is it that makes Texas so recession proof?

draw the correlations surrounding GB Sr., from big oil, to the CIA, to the industrial military complex. Find a good explanation of how greed leads to sending troops into harms way. As my vietnam veteran friend Dale says, "If you want to know why we fight, follow the money."

this shit aint as liberal/lefty as you think. dont be afraid to challene tradition. If you refuse to question, youll never arrive at the truth. and Im not even saying your truth will be the same as mine.

[Parker2112]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_profiteering

[Wild Cobra]

only since WWII...we were justified there. But there were people in the US making money from the Nazis even then. War profiteers and traitors.
I wouldn't say they were unjust, I would say CIC's got scared about public opinion, or were just plain stupid. Johnson I think fit both those.

The problem with Viet-Nam, was politicians couldn't follow through with what they started. We could have easily won that war. That's really the bottom line with it and other wars. Politicians are spineless.

Would you say Grenada was unjust?

What about Desert Storm?

[Wild Cobra]

People in the military are just normal people who choose to serve. Your not innately superior in any way. But you deserve respect for your service.
What makes you believe these statements you come up with?

The military had standards. High school or GED. Test score requirements. Because of this, like it or not, the average military person has a better aptitude than the average civilian.

[Parker2112]

I wouldn't say they were unjust, I would say CIC's got scared about public opinion, or were just plain stupid. Johnson I think fit both those.

The problem with Viet-Nam, was politicians couldn't follow through with what they started. We could have easily won that war. That's really the bottom line with it and other wars. Politicians are spineless.

Would you say Grenada was unjust?

What about Desert Storm?

I dont know anything about grenada. And when desert storm kicked off, I was sitting in a high school classroom thinking we were going in to help defend a tiny nation that was about to be overrun by Saddam.

Now I see it as us defending our interests in the middle easts...the continued flow of oil.

I have to say here, without oil we dry up and blow away. Our military comes to a halt. Our economy implodes. We will be sitting ducks for our economic rivals the world over, if they survive the death of the greatest nation on earth. That is why we are at war. it is so fucking vital, and our government, then and now, knows that we must do whatever it takes to keep it flowing. So in reality, the cause is still a noble one, a cause to propogate our great nation.

But I dont like not being told the truth. And we are not told the truth because if people stopped believing that terrorism is the reason we are in the middle east, they might start clamouring for alternative energy sources. And the lies that keep us tied to middle eastern resources are the lies that need to be exposed.

[Parker2112]

What makes you believe these statements you come up with?

The military had standards. High school or GED. Test score requirements. Because of this, like it or not, the average military person has a better aptitude than the average civilian.

military training is a huge advantage. but anytime you point to your own group as superior, your 1. giving your own too much credit, and 2. not giving enough credit to the citizens of our great nation

[Wild Cobra]

read about the profit made from war. read about war profitteers. Every civilization/generation has had them.
No shit Sherlock. That doesn't mean that's the purpose.

read about the Bush family, all the way back to Prescott Bush, and his attempt to unseat FDR. Ask questions like: what is it that makes Texas so recession proof?

Your point? If I recall, Prescott even had... I forget, was it communist ties?

As for Bush 41 and Bush 43, you have no case. If you wish to start spouting off with the Saudi's, you should learn the facts that all presidents associated with them, and democrats did more than republicans. What's disturbing is when prominent democrat senators associate with them like John Kerry. What diplomatic role does he have, or are they friends?


draw the correlations surrounding GB Sr., from big oil, to the CIA, to the industrial military complex.
So fucking what? Do you always see bogeymen where they don't exist?

Find a good explanation of how greed leads to sending troops into harms way. As my vietnam veteran friend Dale says, "If you want to know why we fight, follow the money."

There are tjhose who will take advantage of situations for profit. That's not necessarily a bad thing. To make such statements without relevant facts is no better than slander.


this shit aint as liberal/lefty as you think. dont be afraid to challene tradition. If you refuse to question, youll never arrive at the truth.
Except, you are already biased with an assumed truth that many people simply don't share. You should maintain an open mind and consider the possibility you are wrong.

and Im not even saying your truth will be the same as mine.
That is so obvious.

P.S.... I served 11 years, and during the downing of KAL007, Grenada, and Desert Storm.

[Parker2112]

No shit Sherlock. That doesn't mean that's the purpose.

Your point? If I recall, Prescott even had... I forget, was it communist ties?

As for Bush 41 and Bush 43, you have no case. If you wish to start spouting off with the Saudi's, you should learn the facts that all presidents associated with them, and democrats did more than republicans. What's disturbing is when prominent democrat senators associate with them like John Kerry. What diplomatic role does he have, or are they friends?

So fucking what? Do you always see bogeymen where they don't exist?

There are tjhose who will take advantage of situations for profit. That's not necessarily a bad thing. To make such statements without relevant facts is no better than slander.

Except, you are already biased with an assumed truth that many people simply don't share. You should maintain an open mind and consider the possibility you are wrong.
That is so obvious.

P.S.... I served 11 years, and during the downing of KAL007, Grenada, and Desert Storm.

You did a great service to this country by serving, and Your entitled to your opinion.

I have done a ton of self study, I have refused to buy the SEE THROUGH, OBVIOUS, ARROGANT lies that have been propogated the republican party, and they have led me to spit out the party I once identified with.

I have seen the light, Wild Cobra. You cant turn back my clock. Unless you shine light on some facts that I haven't already encountered and dealt with, my mind is indeed made up.

[spursncowboys]

spursncowboys: read about the profit made from war. read about war profitteers. Every civilization/generation has had them. read about the Bush family, all the way back to Prescott Bush, and his attempt to unseat FDR. Ask questions like: what is it that makes Texas so recession proof?

draw the correlations surrounding GB Sr., from big oil, to the CIA, to the industrial military complex. Find a good explanation of how greed leads to sending troops into harms way. As my vietnam veteran friend Dale says, "If you want to know why we fight, follow the money."

You could say that about our founding fathers who were making their fortunes from smuggling.
Also that same kind of thing could make assumptions that the cia through reagan, bush and clinton(mena, ar) created the crack epidemic.

[Parker2112]

knowing your history is the only way to prevent the unfortunate parts from happening again. do the study... read the books. read books by folks on both sides of the aisle. some explanations rise with credibility, some accounts stink like rotten trash. but from the contradiction you can find the truth.

[spursncowboys]

I dont know anything about grenada. And when desert storm kicked off, I was sitting in a high school classroom thinking we were going in to help defend a tiny nation that was about to be overrun by Saddam.

Now I see it as us defending our interests in the middle easts...the continued flow of oil.

I have to say here, without oil we dry up and blow away. Our military comes to a halt. Our economy implodes. We will be sitting ducks for our economic rivals the world over, if they survive the death of the greatest nation on earth. That is why we are at war. it is so fucking vital, and our government, then and now, knows that we must do whatever it takes to keep it flowing. So in reality, the cause is still a noble one, a cause to propogate our great nation.

But I dont like not being told the truth. And we are not told the truth because if people stopped believing that terrorism is the reason we are in the middle east, they might start clamouring for alternative energy sources. And the lies that keep us tied to middle eastern resources are the lies that need to be exposed.
although we always had a built in defense of the oil in the middle east. It was more of keeping it out of people worse than OPEC. Saddam had already invaded Saudia Arabia. That would have been SA, Kuwait, Iraq, and probably UAE and Bagram next. All in the hands of a brutal dictator. I don't know a better description for "just war"

[spursncowboys]

prescott Bush was one of seven directors of the Union Banking Corporation, an investment bank controlled by the Thyssen family.
Thyssen was a Hitler supporter until 38, and went against him. WHen that happened, he was kicked out of the nazi party. He spent over three years in concentration camp. this is the closest thing anyone has on bush and the nazis. the ubc was taken over by fdr.

prescott bush supported civil rights legislation and the establishment of the peace corp. he was an early supporter of the united negro college fund, his father was physically involved on the underground railroad.

[Wild Cobra]

I have done a ton of self study, I have refused to buy the SEE THROUGH, OBVIOUS, ARROGANT lies that have been propogated the republican party, and they have led me to spit out the party I once identified with.

What about the lies from the democrats?

You obviously pick and choose what to scrutinize, keeping you closed minded.


I have seen the light, Wild Cobra. You cant turn back my clock. Unless you shine light on some facts that I haven't already encountered and dealt with, my mind is indeed made up.

I say bullshit about seeing the light. Perhaps if you would also point out democratic faults, you would be believable. However, you partisanship ruins all credibility you wish us to assume.

[Parker2112]

What about the lies from the democrats?

You obviously pick and choose what to scrutinize, keeping you closed minded.

I say bullshit about seeing the light. Perhaps if you would also point out democratic faults, you would be believable. However, you partisanship ruins all credibility you wish us to assume.

Im not even a democrat. Im a libertarian. As for not scrutinizing dems, How is this for you...The two party is a bullshit lie that is killing our country. The choice between repubs and dems is no choice at all.

How can you explain Obama and Cheney having worked for the same organization prior to taking office? for two people who have such a different agenda, such different policies, supposedly, how is it that they both work with the same organization?

gEnuhSScLgc

XOAk-7F1EVU

[Parker2112]

I dont buy all the conspiracy theories, but just the fact that these two butter their bread from the same stick is enough to make me believe that WE, the American people are being hearded like sheep.

[Parker2112]

And I dont dislike every conservative platform. I am for fiscal conservatism. I am for 2nd amendment rights. I think the govt botches anything it tries to accomplish, generally speaking. welfare should be limited to a finite term.

I also grew up as a boy spending my days discovering nature on my grandmothers old place, and as a result I naturally lean towards environmental conservation. The Iraq war was based on lies and deciet. We need to find cleaner ways to produce energy for my two childrens sake. If not to fend off global warming then to have alternatives in place before the price of oil rises enough to drive a knife into our economic heart. And term limits are an absolute necessity. And as much as I think govt is worthless for getting the job done, I distrust big corps even more.

I guess you could call me a hybrid.

[Wild Cobra]

And I dont dislike every conservative platform. I am for fiscal conservatism. I am for 2nd amendment rights.

Maybe true, but you wear tin hats.


I think the govt botches anything it tries to accomplish,
No, they accomplish what they want. More and more control.

generally speaking. welfare should be limited to a finite term.

We probably agree.


I also grew up as a boy spending my days discovering nature on my grandmothers old place, and as a result I naturally lean towards environmental conservation.
I've has experience on a 160 acre farm.

The Iraq war was based on lies and deciet.
No it wasn't. It was based on the best intel we had, and even with the little that was proved to be flawed, I agree in the two war fronts.

We need to find cleaner ways to produce energy for my two childrens sake.
Nuclear is the best option we have. There is no other large source we can replace fossil fuels with.

If not to fend off global warming then to have alternatives in place before the price of oil rises enough to drive a knife into our economic heart.
You have bought into that lie.

Global warming is real, but mostly natural. The biggest impact we have is not from CO2, but from black carbon on snow and ice.

And term limits are an absolute necessity.
No, an informed public is. Why do term limits matter if we keep falling for the same lies as voters?

And as much as I think govt is worthless for getting the job done, I distrust big corps even more.

I have worked for large corporations. Like anyone, they will do what they can within the law. Also remember, most these corporations have shares of stock out there that common people own, and are in retirement accounts. A corporation is expected to do what is best for the stock prices.


I guess you could call me a hybrid.

No, you're still an idiot.

[Nbadan]

The Social Security "trust fund" of course. It's all a scam. Current benefits have to be paid out of current revenues and new borrowing.

Wha? ....you mean there are trillions 'saved' in the social security trust fund?

...granted that money isn't just sitting around gathering no interest and losing value, in fact, treasury bonds and bills are among the most secure investments in the world because they are backed by the power of the U.S. govt...

....so, we have trillions of dollars earning interest that is put back into the national economy by the US govt....that money isn't going to China, Great Britain, or anywhere else...

...and when it comes to pay you back your social security, do you think the govt will pay back the trust fund? No, they'll just print new money to pay you back...

So does debt matter? Yes, but mainly because of the opportunity costs of money and because during periods of inflation, the govt is restricted as to the amount of money it can print, but last I checked this was not a period of runaway inflation, but of deflation....the prescription? Print money and create incentives, such as rebates and tax credits that create demand and help put people back to work...

[Parker2112]

Maybe true, but you wear tin hats.

I wear baseball hats. when I wear hats.


No, they accomplish what they want. More and more control.

Gov cant find its ass with both hands. Control by who? you buy the two party line, who is trying to snatch control the republicans or democrats?


We probably agree.

I've has experience on a 160 acre farm. then you can appreciate a love for nature.


No it wasn't. It was based on the best intel we had, and even with the little that was proved to be flawed, I agree in the two war fronts.

how can you explain the shitty response in Afghanistan then? We were turning Iraq upside down and shaking the oil from her pockets, simultaneously letting Osama find a place to hide. The gov knew it was Al Quieda that hit us, yet the Bush admin went after Saddam. Even if your from the John Wayne school of kick-ass first ask questions later, thats horse-hockey all day every day. Intelligence my ass. They didnt give a rats ass about getting Osama. We never got him and we never will. If your ex-military you know that shit was inexcusable. we should have had his head on a platter for everyone in America to see.

Maybe your too good of a soldier, and you just dont believe in questioning the top brass.


Nuclear is the best option we have. There is no other large source we can replace fossil fuels with. I agree, but we need to keep developing new tech. Breakthroughs happen but you have to keep "pounding the rock." Nuclear will result in an entirely new set of problems down the line. Waste sites leach into the water, people get sick. Just ask anyone who lives around the tri-cities and spends much time in the Columbia over there. Ask about the rashes and the sickness. Everybody around there knows about the wierd shit going on with that river. I lived in Portland for four years, and made friends around there.


You have bought into that lie.

Global warming is real, but mostly natural. The biggest impact we have is not from CO2, but from black carbon on snow and ice. conveniently left out the rising costs of oil. The demand for oil is going through the roof thanks to Asia. The supply has already peaked, and is headed down. This convergence has experts predicting $10 gas. Global warming or not, we need to implent operation: cover your ass, like yesterday.


No, an informed public is. Why do term limits matter if we keep falling for the same lies as voters? Fuck career politicians. why have em? I prefer statesmen. And the bottom line is an informed voter public is a pipe dream.


I have worked for large corporations. Like anyone, they will do what they can within the law. Also remember, most these corporations have shares of stock out there that common people own, and are in retirement accounts. A corporation is expected to do what is best for the stock prices. Corps will do anything inside the law, and anything outside if they wont get caught, or if they grease the wheels and wont get punished anyway. this is what keeps CEOs in their seat, by keeping shareholders happy.

But the short term rise in stock prices has a way of being offset, when the pirates on wall st gouge, and when big oil trashes our gulf...all in the name of max profits and happy shareholders. The whole while, its every man woman and child who stands to lose when our economy collapses, or when there are no fish left in the gulf for the next 30-50 years, or when 11 lives are lost aboard the deep water horizon


No, you're still an idiot.

your entitled to your opinion.

[Wild Cobra]

Parker, you don't get it and think like a liberal. You want to treat the symptoms, and not the root problems.

[SnakeBoy]

Im not even a democrat. Im a libertarian.

You don't sound like a libertarian....
http://www.lp.org/platform

As much as I dislike neocons controlling the republican party and defining what conservatism is I still don't turn to libertarians, progressives, or any other bad ideology. Eventually traditional conservatives will take control of the party...I hope.

[boutons_deux]

"traditional conservatives will take control of the party"

have they ever done so since WWII?

[SnakeBoy]

"traditional conservatives will take control of the party"

have they ever done so since WWII?

Post WWII as in the Cold War as in the thing that brought neocons to power. We're only 25 years post cold war, it takes time for people to wake up especially when there is a non stop party going on. Next time the republican mantra is "We need to spread democracy with our freedom bombs" I think you'll see more conservatives say "fuck you". Now you lefties need to see you have your own Democrat neocons to worry about.

I'll point out that I did say "Hope", you gotta have hope boutons. Life sucks without it.

[Parker2112]

Post WWII as in the Cold War as in the thing that brought neocons to power. We're only 25 years post cold war, it takes time for people to wake up especially when there is a non stop party going on. Next time the republican mantra is "We need to spread democracy with our freedom bombs" I think you'll see more conservatives say "fuck you". Now you lefties need to see you have your own Democrat neocons to worry about.

I'll point out that I did say "Hope", you gotta have hope boutons. Life sucks without it.

But Libertarians generally dont buy the war. Ron Paul says bring the boys home.

[boutons_deux]

The Repugs, conservatives, capitalists, corps have put America on its financial knees, as has been the objective for 30+ years.

Now they lie that social services are THE cause, and therefore, fuck over citizens, fuck over the poor, keeping sucking wealth out of everybody and send it up to the top.

Raising retirement age to 70 seems to be a real possibility. But the unemployment rate for the 55+, esp men, is already one the highest, and the same age bracket is has the highest percentage of long-term unemployed. Some of them, able, wanting, and needing to work, will never be employed again. So kicking away their retirement pittance from 65 up to 70 means many is extremely cruel.

Note that the extending the Repug tax cuts for the superwealthy will cost $2T+.

Nice fucking country, huh?

[Wild Cobra]

But Libertarians generally dont buy the war. Ron Paul says bring the boys home.
Depends on the libertarian. Ever listen to Neal Boortz?

[Capt Bringdown]

The Repugs, conservatives, capitalists, corps have put America on its financial knees, as has been the objective for 30+ years.

You've got to include the Democratic party in the mix. We no longer have an opposition party, that's the big problem IMO. The Democrats are following the hard-right on the path to doom. Clinton and Obama are little more than moderate republicans.

[admiralsnackbar]

Parker, after reading the rest of your posts in this thread, I have concluded you are among the top 5 stupidest posters in SpursTalk that I have come across.

For that reason, I will probably ignore most your posts for now on.

No need to formally state this... you already clearly ignored most of his points in order to make him fit into the "tin-hat liberal" cubbyhole you evidently stuff all people who disagree with you into.

It's a gas how you actively misread posts in order to furnish yourself with positions to disagree with so you can spew the same old talking points bullshit over and over. Do you even care about political discourse, or do you just want to parrot things you've heard to feel superior and hide the fact you don't reason through practically anything you type? If you want proof of this, look to your sustained and demonstrable inability to cite where you get your information from, or explain why you hold the opinions you do, or even so much as leave a discussion when you reach a point of ambivalence instead of blindly repeating yourself despite being proven wrong. I mean, seriously: that's great you see things with such black-and-white certitude and all, but that's something you have in common with children, not adults.

I love that with this track record you feel comfortable calling anyone an idiot, much less someone who at least has the wits to see both parties are less interested in serving you than they are their real patrons and themselves. Rock on, rocker :lol

[Wild Cobra]

No need to formally state this... you already clearly ignored most of his points in order to make him fit into the "tin-hat liberal" cubbyhole you evidently stuff all people who disagree with you into.

Most his points are very partisan.


It's a gas how you actively misread posts in order to furnish yourself with positions to disagree with so you can spew the same old talking points bullshit over and over.

Example please.


Do you even care about political discourse, or do you just want to parrot things you've heard to feel superior and hide the fact you don't reason through practically anything you type? If you want proof of this, look to your sustained and demonstrable inability to cite where you get your information from, or explain why you hold the opinions you do, or even so much as leave a discussion when you reach a point of ambivalence instead of blindly repeating yourself despite being proven wrong.
Inability? I cite sources rather often. I didn't know I needed a source to tell me how to think. is that what you do?

I mean, seriously: that's great you see things with such black-and-white certitude and all, but that's something you have in common with children, not adults.

If you say so. If anything, I'm guilty of expecting people to know more than they do, and it frustrates me.

[admiralsnackbar]

Most his points are very partisan.

Example please. Most of his points seemed disillusioned with both parties.



Example please.




We need to find cleaner ways to produce energy for my two childrens sake. If not to fend off global warming then to have alternatives in place before the price of oil rises enough to drive a knife into our economic heart.




You have bought into that lie.

Global warming is real, but mostly natural. The biggest impact we have is not from CO2, but from black carbon on snow and ice.



Inability? I cite sources rather often. I didn't know I needed a source to tell me how to think.

Is that why there was a thread not long ago where you were ridiculed for countering facts/data with nothing but opinion as you normally do? I'm not gonna dig it up for you, but I can't be the only one who remembers.



is that what you do?


I'm sure I've done it, but don't think I can be accused of making it a habit.



If you say so. If anything, I'm guilty of expecting people to know more than they do, and it frustrates me.

I think you're confusing people having more knowledge with their agreeing with you. Normally I wouldn't bother calling you out since I generally like shooting the shit with you despite your obstinacy... but when you're calling a guy a tin-hat idiot for having opinions that are borne-out by hard data (like doubting Iraq2's justification -- see Downing Street Memo, among others) or expressing a desire for development in alternative energy, it frustrates me how blind to your hypocrisy you are.

[Wild Cobra]

Example please. Most of his points seemed disillusioned with both parties.

Most his points indicating any party were only attacking Bush and Cheney, until we called him on his partisanship.

His understanding of a hydrogen economy...

His understanding of global warming and, and acting as if we haven't been developing cleaner technology as time goes on...

Give me a break.

Partisan attacks. See posts 21, 37, 47, 52, 55, 61, 84, 97

Defending Obama, see posts 22

Defending any republican... none!

Liberal ideals, see posts 37, 52, 55, 65, 84

Attacking Obama, see posts.... I only see 116, and he is wrong about his implications!

Both parties my ass.

[Parker2112]

When we are talking about the war, its all bush/cheney, all the time.

When we are talking about hydrogen economy, none of us can say what a trillion dollars would do to relieve our dependence, because big oil will never let that happen. But that includes you.

And as for GW, are you a scientist? you choose who to trust, and I will too. But until you are in the field doing the work, you are taking someone elses word on it. And likely, that choice is completely self serving...done to suit your already made opinions.

Clean tech has been in the works, but if you have been around as long as you claim, you know that the majority of clean tech with real potential to unseat oil has been pushed into the dark...there is too much $$$ at stake. The only thing that will ever counter this is the voice of the voters.

[boutons_deux]

If this current trial works out ...

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62C01Z20100313

... Honda will be selling hydrogen-fuel cars while the Americans will be fighting foreign wars to grab lithium and other rare resources.

[Wild Cobra]

When we are talking about the war, its all bush/cheney, all the time.

Funny how most the democrats were for the war too, but you single out them.


When we are talking about hydrogen economy, none of us can say what a trillion dollars would do to relieve our dependence, because big oil will never let that happen. But that includes you.

It will do nothing but line the pockets of people who don't need it.


And as for GW, are you a scientist?
Not by title, but I have a very firm understanding.

you choose who to trust, and I will too. But until you are in the field doing the work, you are taking someone elses word on it.
That is a completely false assumption. I understand the sciences involving global warming. I have made up my own mind, and if you haven't noticed, I have stated things you will probably not find others on the internet saying before I did.

And likely, that choice is completely self serving...done to suit your already made opinions.

Self serving to the point I pride myself in my understanding of things technical.


Clean tech has been in the works, but if you have been around as long as you claim, you know that the majority of clean tech with real potential to unseat oil has been pushed into the dark...there is too much $$$ at stake.
It's pushed into the dark because it is way too expensive to use. Again, if there was profit to be made rather than requiring unsustainable amounts of tax payer subsidies, the energy companies would be doing it.

How can anyone be so duped by liberals that they only profit in oil? They would profit in alternatives if it was profitable.

The only thing that will ever counter this is the voice of the voters.

Yep, and look what happens. Voters constantly get lied to and vote for agendas that in the end, harm us.

[Wild Cobra]

If this current trial works out ...

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62C01Z20100313

... Honda will be selling hydrogen-fuel cars while the Americans will be fighting foreign wars to grab lithium and other rare resources.
So?

Did you understand the limitations within the article?

[admiralsnackbar]

How can anyone be so duped by liberals that they only profit in oil? They would profit in alternatives if it was profitable.


How can you be so dense to not see that renewable energy is, by definition, less profitable than selling an expendable commodity like oil which is ridiculously cheap to extract and refine with respect to the final selling price? Even nuclear is way less profitable because it actually takes money to run, service, and secure a plant.

[Parker2112]

It's pushed into the dark because it is way too expensive to use. Again, if there was profit to be made rather than requiring unsustainable amounts of tax payer subsidies, the energy companies would be doing it.

How can anyone be so duped by liberals that they only profit in oil? They would profit in alternatives if it was profitable.

Yep, and look what happens. Voters constantly get lied to and vote for agendas that in the end, harm us.

Answer this: why would big oil leave money in the ground by implementing new clean tech before it has maximized profits on its standing resources?

Why would it not buy the patents and hold the technology, with plans to implement them after max oil profits have been fully realized?

EVEN IF THAT MEANS OUR PLANET GETS TRASHED IN THE PROCESS? Why would they act on the best interests of the people, instead of max $$$?

the answer is self-realizing

[Parker2112]

""But Honda is widely seen as the hydrogen leader, while others like General Motors put more effort into battery-powered electric vehicles like the upcoming Volt."

could that be because the coal lobby has no influence on japanes automakers, but stands to up profits if cars begin using the power grid for energy?

[Wild Cobra]

How can you be so dense to not see that renewable energy is, by definition, less profitable than selling an expendable commodity like oil which is ridiculously cheap to extract and refine with respect to the final selling price? Even nuclear is way less profitable because it actually takes money to run, service, and secure a plant.
Ta-da....

You are now making my point.

[Parker2112]

its only when we look at the total cost do we realize the weight that hydrocarbons have on our economy. that is the convenient part that most drill-baby's would like to gloss over

[Parker2112]

And Answer this: why would big oil leave money in the ground by implementing new clean tech before it has maximized profits on its standing resources?

Why would it not buy the patents and hold the technology, with plans to implement them after max oil profits have been fully realized?

EVEN IF THAT MEANS OUR PLANET GETS TRASHED IN THE PROCESS? Why would they act on the best interests of the people, instead of max $$$?

[Wild Cobra]

Answer this: why would big oil leave money in the ground by implementing new clean tech before it has maximized profits on its standing resources?

They look at profit. If they want to continue with oil rather than other methods, that proves it's more profitable. Lets say company "A: decides to stop drilling, and make solar farms. He then just has a small market competing with cheaper coal. He has to sell it at a loss without government intervention. He otherwise doesn't have any significant market to sell to. Same with hydrogen for cars. How many people will pay for hydrogen? Some will as a novelty, or to be more green, but it's a small market and they are doing these things. Just at really small scale. How can you expect energy companies to say "OK, I'll mass market a product that won't sell, unless you regulate my global competition."

Your line of thinking is what leads to dictatorial leaders. You want someone to nationalize, price control, or use some other authoritarian power to mold things. You are not a libertarian. You are an authoritarian when you have such thoughts.


Why would it not buy the patents and hold the technology, with plans to implement them after max oil profits have been fully realized?

Again, they do them in small scale, but because their isn't enough demand at the price to sustain it, it remains small scale, but they do test technology for the future.


EVEN IF THAT MEANS OUR PLANET GETS TRASHED IN THE PROCESS? Why would they act on the best interests of the people, instead of max $$$?

What do you mean "Even if?" Yes, we have a disaster from time to time. In the end, the earth will heal. We would really have to focus efforts to hurt Mother Earth.


the answer is self-realizing

I'd say you are misguided.

[admiralsnackbar]

Ta-da....

You are now making my point.

Your point is that PetroCorps will never back end-user power supplies like solar and wind because oil has a geometrically larger profit margin. For them. I get that.

But that's not to say there isn't demand for sustainable energy, because there is. There is crazy demand on the consumer side for a savings margin. So another company will innovate a solution, and when it threatens oil, Petros will either swoop in and buy the company or steal it's business plan and undercut them. I wouldn't be surprised if they went so far as to use Washington to stanch such companies in order to continue with their primary profit engine, because whatever cheap energy we may desire here is dwarfed by the demand in developing nations. In other words, Petros have an profit motive to quash competitive energy sources. That's my point

All to say that expecting energy companies to relinquish their golden goose isn't going to happen of their goodwill, and waiting for them to transition once the oil starts to run dry isn't good enough.

[CosmicCowboy]

Different markets. Oil derivatives are portable and work well to power vehicles. There aren't any oil fired power plants. Solar, wind etc. are not portable. They are a feasible replacement for power plants. Apples/Oranges.

[admiralsnackbar]

Different markets. Oil derivatives are portable and work well to power vehicles. There aren't any oil fired power plants. Solar, wind etc. are not portable. They are a feasible replacement for power plants. Apples/Oranges.

Electric cars change that equation, however.

[Wild Cobra]

Petros have an profit motive to quash competitive energy sources. That's my point
That's laughable. They have supply and demand on their side. They don't have to try to squash them.

All to say that expecting energy companies to relinquish their golden goose isn't going to happen of their goodwill, and waiting for them to transition once the oil starts to run dry isn't good enough.

You forget. These energy companies already know about geothermal, solar, wind, hydrogen etc. They know the impracticality of the science, and know it's not a threat.

Why would they spend time against a non-starter. there's your tin hat my friend. You see things that don't exist.

[Parker2112]

they have an interest in maximizing profit on their infrastructure and resource rights. regardless of whether those interests serve the people of the US or not. which they dont. we dont have any interest in being run over the cliff of $10 a gallon oil or the cliff of natural disasters as we have to invade more and more difficult geography when all the easy oil is gone.

The american public deserves policies that would have alternatives in the batters box. elected officials are trying hard to ensure that they get in on the take. Dems and Repugs.

[boutons_deux]

defensive buying of non-oil energy patents is fully expected,

just like BigPharma defensively buys off generic drug makers to keep their drugs off the market,

and just like GM killed regional light rail in LA (I saw it in the documentary/exposay "Who Killed Roger Rabbit")

Corps will always fuck over the country, environment, people to defend/maintain/increase their profits. It's the very definition of corporate behavior.

[Wild Cobra]

they have an interest in maximizing profit on their infrastructure and resource rights. regardless of whether those interests serve the people of the US or not. which they dont. we dont have any interest in being run over the cliff of $10 a gallon oil or the cliff of natural disasters as we have to invade more and more difficult geography when all the easy oil is gone.

The american public deserves policies that would have alternatives in the batters box. elected officials are trying hard to ensure that they get in on the take. Dems and Repugs.

So you would dictate how people buy and sell.

Didn't you say you were a libertarian?

Like I said, you are a liberal authoritarian.

[Parker2112]

True libertarian would be completely hands off. And If we had been hands off all this time, allowing alternatives to compete without gov/business interference, the batters box would already be full. but because special interest/corruption has left us completely addicted and vulnerable, we have no choice but to correct the scales. And for that reason, I believe the American people need elected officials to step up, to provide the bridge to our future. We need corrective action to displace the sinister interests from thier throne in our government, and that may require the exertion of some authority.

[LnGrrrR]

only since WWII...we were justified there. But there were people in the US making money from the Nazis even then. War profiteers and traitors.

Thank you for proving my point that a war can be just AND people can make profit off of it. :tu

[admiralsnackbar]

That's laughable. They have supply and demand on their side. They don't have to try to squash them.

If you sell steer, and all of a sudden you start seeing a trend towards vegetarianism because it's cheaper and healthier and some people think it's more ethical, what are you going to do? Can you sell me beef that's cheaper than growing my own veggies (with less effort than it would take me to go to the McDonald's)? What's your pitch?


You forget. These energy companies already know about geothermal, solar, wind, hydrogen etc. They know the impracticality of the science, and know it's not a threat.
You assume it's impractical because its profit margins are lower than oil's, but the vast majority of industries are less profitable than oil. You'd have to convince me that buying gas and paying for electricity off the grid sum to a lower number than the monthly payment on a rented/mortgaged windmill which juiced my car and home.



Why would they spend time against a non-starter. there's your tin hat my friend. You see things that don't exist.

So there's no demand for cheap sustainable energy on the consumer end? And solar can't provide for basic household electricity, forgetting what modest wind turbines could add? You seriously have to reduce this to my being a fantasist when all you have to do is scan the internet to see all these concepts are being incorporated by architects into functional, affordable homes already?

http://archrecord.construction.com/news/daily/archives/090401greenhome.asp

http://www.sdeurope.org/index.htm

Tin hat ya mutha, Cobra :lol

[LnGrrrR]

Depends on the libertarian. Ever listen to Neal Boortz?

Neal Boortz may be a self-proclaimed libertarian, but everytime I've listened to him, his personal views agree with the Republicans platform 99% of the time. Is there any "big issue" in which he doesn't agree with Republicans? Is he, for instance, for gay marriage, as many libs are? Is he against warrantless wiretapping? Is he against indefinite detention?

[Wild Cobra]

Admiral, your last post is rather idiotic, and makes it completely obvious you fail to understand the concepts I outlined.

I don't know how to explain it any simpler.

This is why I end up getting angry so easy with people here. Concepts that are so simple, are completely not seen by you guys.

[admiralsnackbar]

Admiral, your last post is rather idiotic, and makes it completely obvious you fail to understand the concepts I outlined.

I don't know how to explain it any simpler.

Were that it weren't, but coming from you, "rather idiotic" is high praise.

Carry on :lol

[Winehole23]

Admiral, your last post is rather idiotic, and makes it completely obvious you fail to understand the concepts I outlined.

I don't know how to explain it any simpler.Can you explain it at all?

Your conclusion is not intuitively clear to me, unless AS's failure to understand in fact amounts to his "failure" to be an echo of you.

Isn't that the real problem here, WC?

[Wild Cobra]

Can you explain it at all?

Your conclusion is not intuitively clear to me, unless AS's failure to understand in fact amounts to his "failure" to be an echo of you.

Isn't that the real problem here, WC?
I'm sorry if you don't understand the concepts.

How can we have a free nation if you are going to take such authoritarian actions against the people?

[admiralsnackbar]

I'm sorry if you don't understand the concepts.

How can we have a free nation if you are going to take such authoritarian actions against the people?

Where exactly does authoritarianism come into this?

[Wild Cobra]

Where exactly does authoritarianism come into this?
It's called control.

You saying you don;'t need regulations to do this?

[admiralsnackbar]

It's called control.

You saying you don;'t need regulations to do this?

You saying you don't need regulation to do anything in a multidimensional modern republic?

At the same time, I think you just flashed on you paranoid fear that the government is going to tell you how to live... which seems absurd. The incentives are there for the consumer.

[Winehole23]

I'm sorry if you don't understand the concepts.Your manner of describing them occasionally leaves something to be desired.