Who is More Conservative: Ronald Reagan or Barack Obama?

[Capt Bringdown]

Who is More Conservative: Ronald Reagan or Barack Obama? (http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/58915)


Ronald Reagan:

• Gave Amnesty to Illegal Immigrants
• Negotiated with Terrorists (Traded Arms for Hostages with Iran)
• Raised Taxes on a Large Scale Four Times (After Initially Lowering Them)
• Negotiated with the "Evil Empire" without Pre-conditions
• Made a Decision to "Cut and Run" From Lebanon After Our Troops Were Attacked

Barack Obama:

• Escalated the Afghanistan War (Added 30,000 More Troops)
• Escalated the Afghanistan War (Added 30,000 More Troops)
• Has Ordered Drone Strikes (Assassinations) on US Citizens Outside the Country
• Gave Drug Companies Near Monopoly Power by Barring Imports, Extending Patents and Not Allowing the Government to Negotiate Better Prices
• Funneled Billions into the Biggest Banks in the Country After They Crashed the Economy
• Stacked Deficit Commission with Fiscal Conservatives
• Lowered Taxes Significantly (Stimulus Bill)
• Ordered Increased Offshore Drilling Before BP Spill

[panic giraffe]

but but but, he's a commie, muslim commie terrrorist that obama.

[DarrinS]

:lmao

[Wild Cobra]

Captain....

Are you high?

I would love to see the evidence that propaganda piece uses.

Where did Obama lower taxes anyway?

[jack sommerset]

Where did Obama lower taxes anyway?

LOL....He said the Stimulus bill!

[The Reckoning]

thats not conservative. thats repug. conservative would've let the banks die and not escalate international wars.

[Wild Cobra]

LOL....He said the Stimulus bill!
Tax credits are liberal concepts. not conservative. Tax breaks are conservative concepts and should not be confused with tax credits.

[byrontx]

Who is More Conservative: Ronald Reagan or Barack Obama? (http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/58915)

You have to include KLM 007 in Reagan legacy also. He absolutely wussed out on that, Russians killing a US Congressman. Reagan was an actor and did a great job of talking tough but he always ducked when the going got tough.

The only good that came of that is we got GPS for non-military use.

[boutons_deux]

"What Would Reagan Really Do?


Some Republicans want to impose a Reaganite purity test on this fall’s candidates. Today, though, the 40th president himself wouldn’t pass it."



http://www.newsweek.com/content/newsweek/2010/07/09/what-would-reagan-really-do/_jcr_content/body/mainimage.img.jpg/1278684138904.jpg


http://www.newsweek.com/2010/07/09/what-would-reagan-really-do.print.html

[spursncowboys]

Who's the worst president?
Jimmy Carter or Barrack Obama?

[boutons_deux]

The comparative form of bad is worse, not worst.

[spursncowboys]

b_d: I knew the word I was using. Thank you though.

[boutons_deux]

Presidential "scholars" have again come out in a poll saying your boy dubya was the WORSTEST President in modern times, by all the measures scholars use to measure Presidential effectiveness, accomplishments.

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0701/nations-leading-presidential-scholars-bush-worst-president-modern-era-5th-worst-history/

[Wild Cobra]

You have to include KLM 007 in Reagan legacy also. He absolutely wussed out on that, Russians killing a US Congressman. Reagan was an actor and did a great job of talking tough but he always ducked when the going got tough.

The only good that came of that is we got GPS for non-military use.
Bullshit.

You haven't a clue what the implications would have been, do you?

Wimped out my ass. I lived in S. Korea then in the military. We had no shortage of information and rumor.

What would you have had him do? Go to war with the USSR? Like it or not, we violated their airspace.

Yes, the GPS was made available to civilians after that incident...

[Wild Cobra]

Who's the worst president?
Jimmy Carter or Barrack Obama?
That's a tough one. Obama seems to have wised up a little, but he could still do some really dumb things. He could take first-place away from carter, but he still hasn't done anything as costly as creating a new department... The Department of Education, which has done nothing but cost money and dumb kids down.

[Wild Cobra]

Scratch that...

He is the worse, for pushing for and passing health care legislation.

[Ignignokt]

When Obama finishes his term, then it will be proper to make a valid comparison.

ALso, bailouts and favoring particular corporations is not a free market principle, but a Keynesian principle.

Also fiscal conservative does not equate to conservative. You can be a fiscal conservative with in a statist budget. And i don't know by what criteria you used to gather that his appointments were conservative.

You have a shitty idea about what conservatism is.

[Ignignokt]

Shit, Captain Blowdown forgot to include,

Forced americans to purchase health insurance
Took state possesion of a major car manufacturer
Exempted Unions from his legislation but forced the average citizen to comply.

anyone got more to add to conservative Ludwig Von Mises OBama!! LOLOLOLOL!!

[Wild Cobra]

Presidential "scholars" have again come out in a poll saying your boy dubya was the WORSTEST President in modern times, by all the measures scholars use to measure Presidential effectiveness, accomplishments.

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0701/nations-leading-presidential-scholars-bush-worst-president-modern-era-5th-worst-history/
If that's what the article says, it lies.

You should verify information before inserting foot in mouth.

Overall Rank (http://www.siena.edu/uploadedfiles/home/parents_and_community/community_page/sri/independent_research/Presidents%202010%20Rank%20by%20Category.pdf)

American Presidents: Greatest and Worst
Siena’s 5th Presidential Expert Poll 1982 - 2010 (http://www.siena.edu/uploadedfiles/home/parents_and_community/community_page/sri/independent_research/Presidents%20Release_2010_final.pdf)

[DarrinS]

Presidential "scholars" have again come out in a poll saying your boy dubya was the WORSTEST President in modern times, by all the measures scholars use to measure Presidential effectiveness, accomplishments.

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0701/nations-leading-presidential-scholars-bush-worst-president-modern-era-5th-worst-history/


Is this thread about Bush?

[Wild Cobra]

Is this thread about Bush?
Darrin, you forgot.

It's always Bush's fault.

[Nbadan]

Darrin, you forgot.

It's always Bush's fault.

:rolleyes

How long did wingnuts hang on Bill Clinton's nuts over a blowjob? and he left us with a projected budget surplus and no wars without end..

[spursncowboys]

Presidential "scholars" have again come out in a poll saying your boy dubya was the WORSTEST President in modern times, by all the measures scholars use to measure Presidential effectiveness, accomplishments.

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0701/nations-leading-presidential-scholars-bush-worst-president-modern-era-5th-worst-history/
they have obama at 15. Some notables that obama is ahead of:
J. Adams
Reagan
McKinley
Cleveland
Van Buren
Coolidge

The fact that their number 1 is FDR also lends to the credibility.

[spursncowboys]

:rolleyes

How long did wingnuts hang on Bill Clinton's nuts over a blowjob? and he left us with a projected budget surplus and no wars without end..

how did clinton do that?

[BanditHiro]

isn't James Buchanan the undisputed worst president of all time?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Who's the worst president?
Jimmy Carter or Barrack Obama?

I'll give you a chance to prove this.

[spursncowboys]

GGA: prove a question?

[George Gervin's Afro]

GGA: prove a question?

you're right I gave you too much credit

[Veterinarian]

who's the worst president?
Jimmy carter or barrack obama?

w.

[The Reckoning]

isn't James Buchanan the undisputed worst president of all time?


yes

carter had alot of badluck and couldnt handle it, but buchanan was terrible.

[spursncowboys]

w.

is it his foreign policy that you feel that way?

[rjv]

technically, reagan was not a "conservative" either. federal government expanded under his watch. the desire to outlaw abortion was never seriously pursued. reagan compromised with the USSR on arms control. he saved Social Security in 1983, and he failed to uphold the conservative dogma that taxes should never be raised.

in truth, reagan was the first of the neoliberals and neoliberal defines obama to a tee.

[Wild Cobra]

technically, reagan was not a "conservative" either. federal government expanded under his watch. the desire to outlaw abortion was never seriously pursued. reagan compromised with the USSR on arms control. he saved Social Security in 1983, and he failed to uphold the conservative dogma that taxes should never be raised.

in truth, reagan was the first of the neoliberals and neoliberal defines obama to a tee.
I forget. What taxes did he authorize to be raised? My understanding is that some of the '81 tax cuts were rolled back. taxes were still lower than when he took office.

link please.

[DMX7]

Overall Rank (http://www.siena.edu/uploadedfiles/home/parents_and_community/community_page/sri/independent_research/Presidents%202010%20Rank%20by%20Category.pdf)



Obama is ranked ahead of Ronald Reagan! Nice...:toast

[Wild Cobra]

Obama is ranked ahead of Ronald Reagan! Nice...:toast
That's what makes the rankings so obviously biased.

[boutons_deux]

"What taxes did he authorize to be raised"

St Ronnie the Infirm cut taxes on the wealthy (eg, himself) and raised SocSec to pay for (some of) it.

http://www.pensitoreview.com/2010/07/02/reagan-raised-taxes-7-times/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaganomics

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0301.green.html

[Wild Cobra]

"What taxes did he authorize to be raised"

St Ronnie the Infirm cut taxes on the wealthy (eg, himself) and raised SocSec to pay for (some of) it.

LOL...

That's all you have?

I already know all that. However, Social Security is insurance. Not taxes. The premiums needed an increase. We were coming into a time the rich would move away, then not pay the high rates. Were were losing tax payers. We need more tax payers, not less. We need to keep it attractive for rich people to live here. Keep up the "soak the rich" attitude, and some day, there will be none here to pay for you.

[rjv]

I forget. What taxes did he authorize to be raised? My understanding is that some of the '81 tax cuts were rolled back. taxes were still lower than when he took office.

link please.

the tax equity and fiscal responsibility act (TEFRA) raised taxes by $37.5 billion per year (http://www.investorwords.com/6700/Tax_Equity_and_Fiscal_Responsibility_Act_of_1982.h tml) and the highway revenue act raised the gasoline tax by another $3.3 billion. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Revenue_Act_of_1982 )

there was also the deficit reduction act of 1984, the consolidated omnibus budget reconciliation act of 1985, 86 and 87 and the raising of taxes on social security in 1984.

[Wild Cobra]

the tax equity and fiscal responsibility act (TEFRA) raised taxes by $37.5 billion per year (http://www.investorwords.com/6700/Tax_Equity_and_Fiscal_Responsibility_Act_of_1982.h tml) and the highway revenue act raised the gasoline tax by another $3.3 billion. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Revenue_Act_of_1982 )

there was also the deficit reduction act of 1984, the consolidated omnibus budget reconciliation act of 1985, 86 and 87 and the raising of taxes on social security in 1984.
So?

The highway tax is based on cents per gallon, and not indexed to inflation. It needs an increase form time to time.

The $37.5 billion increase was still less than the decrease it followed.

I addressed the SS issue already.

You're not telling me anything I don't know already. Are you saying this is what you use as tax increases?. How pitifully small, and most inaccurate to class as a tax increase.

I assumed you must have had some real, significant increase. Is this the best you have?

[rjv]

So?

I assumed you must have had some real, significant increase. Is this the best you have?

TEFRA alone raised taxes by almost 1 percent of the gross domestic product, making it the largest peacetime tax increase in american history. an increase of similar magnitude today would raise more than $100 billion per year.

http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/tax-policy/library/ota81.pdf

[Wild Cobra]

TEFRA alone raised taxes by almost 1 percent of the gross domestic product,
You can you differentiate that from other factors?

1% my ass. I would say some, maybe all that credit belongs elsewhere.

Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982

1) repealed scheduled increases in accelerated depreciation deductions
2) tightened safe harbor leasing rules
3) required taxpayers to reduce basis by 50% of investment tax credit
4) instituted 10% withholding on dividends and interest paid to individuals
5) tightened completed contract accounting rules
6) increased FUTA wage base and tax rate

I don't see the big deal. Nothing like democrats talk about tax increases.

[da_suns_fan]

What a bunch of nonsense.

As if Obama would ever order striking FAA workers back to work.

Or escalate an arms race against the Soviets.

Or cut income taxes almost in half (of course he did then raise them a little...but they were still far lower than they were in 1979).

Or veto bills because they had too much pork.

Or have the guts to call an adversary "evil".

[rjv]

You can you differentiate that from other factors?

1% my ass. I would say some, maybe all that credit belongs elsewhere.



yeah, why trust the US dept of treasury records and documents ?

[rjv]

Or escalate an arms race against the Soviets.




http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-april-8-2010/the-big-bang-treaty

[spursncowboys]

What a bunch of nonsense.

As if Obama would ever order striking FAA workers back to work.

Or escalate an arms race against the Soviets.

Or cut income taxes almost in half (of course he did then raise them a little...but they were still far lower than they were in 1979).

Or veto bills because they had too much pork.

Or have the guts to call an adversary "evil".

Or have the guts to authorize funding for groups fighting our enemies.
Or go to war
Or have the courage to switch political parties when he realizes he was wrong

[spursncowboys]

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-april-8-2010/the-big-bang-treaty

really. a link to the daily show?

[spursncowboys]

technically, reagan was not a "conservative" either. federal government expanded under his watch. the desire to outlaw abortion was never seriously pursued. reagan compromised with the USSR on arms control. he saved Social Security in 1983, and he failed to uphold the conservative dogma that taxes should never be raised.

in truth, reagan was the first of the neoliberals and neoliberal defines obama to a tee.

what compromise with ussr? because i recall them in the ussr wanting to make a deal with the us if reagan gave up star wars. reagan wouldn't agree.

[rjv]

really. a link to the daily show?

its more factual than fox that's for sure. of course, you'd actually have to watch the clip to see that in this case.

[spursncowboys]

yeah. maybe later.

[Wild Cobra]

yeah, why trust the US dept of treasury records and documents ?
I'm saying with the other changes, how can you determine the the breakdown of the 1%. To assign it to one thing is very narrow visioned.

[rjv]

Or have the guts to authorize funding for groups fighting our enemies.

yes, by handing over weapons (over 1,500 missiles) to the iranians in the process (and all to fund the overthrowing of a democratically elected president)


Or go to war

let's see, that puts reagan in a set with how many other presidents?

[rjv]

I'm saying with the other changes, how can you determine the the breakdown of the 1%. To assign it to one thing is very narrow visioned.

the point is that the result of reagan's tax cuts was a federal government that actually increased its spending as a proportion of GDP while simultaneously increasing government debt as a result (a close to 3 trillion dollar national deficit). this hardly sounds like 'conservatism' to me.

[Wild Cobra]

the point is that the result of reagan's tax cuts was a federal government that actually increased its spending as a proportion of GDP while simultaneously increasing government debt as a result (a close to 3 trillion dollar national deficit). this hardly sounds like 'conservatism' to me.
Hard to decrease spending when the inflation left over from the Carter administration is in the double digits.

Why are we now having even more of a spending increase when we effectively have no inflation?

[boutons_deux]

"inflation left over from the Carter administration"

You Lie, Pravda huckster.

The 2nd oil shock inflatoin from the 1973 Israeli war, plus the Khoemeni oil shock from the Iranian Revolution/Embassy seizure are what pushed up inflation in 1980+, not Carter's policies.

What specific Carter policies caused inflation?

[Wild Cobra]

"inflation left over from the Carter administration"

You Lie, Pravda huckster.

The 2nd oil shock inflatoin from the 1973 Israeli war, plus the Khoemeni oil shock from the Iranian Revolution/Embassy seizure are what pushed up inflation in 1980+, not Carter's policies.

What specific Carter policies caused inflation?
I'm looking at the end result. Not any specific one.

You should look at these:

The US Inflation Rate - 1948 to 2009 (http://www.miseryindex.us/irbyyear.asp)

Inflation was 13.58% during carters last year. Inflation was 4.08% during Reagan's last year. Inflation was -0.34% under Obama for 2009.

Look at the misery index trendby congress:

The US Misery Index by Congress January 1948 to May 2010 (http://www.miseryindex.us/indexbyCongress.asp)

Why was unemplyment slowly going down until after the democrats took control in early 2006:

The US Unemployment Rate
January 1948 to May 2010 (http://www.miseryindex.us/urbymonth.asp)

[Winehole23]

The eminently science-minded WC mischievously suggests correlation=causation.

[LnGrrrR]

Since I wasn't really around to know about these, what about the other bullets board conservatives?

• Gave Amnesty to Illegal Immigrants
• Negotiated with Terrorists (Traded Arms for Hostages with Iran)
• Negotiated with the "Evil Empire" without Pre-conditions
• Made a Decision to "Cut and Run" From Lebanon After Our Troops Were Attacked

[Wild Cobra]

The eminently science-minded WC mischievously suggests correlation=causation.
LOL....

So you only use it when it suits your own agenda?

Problem is, AWG alarmists use it over science.

[Winehole23]

LOL....

So you only use it when it suits your own agenda?I try to avoid it.


Problem is, AWG alarmists use it over science.So do you. Great company you've got there. :tu