Grizzlies to sign Celtics guard Tony Allen to three-year, $10 million guaranteed

[Kobe Molested Me]

Via SpearsNBAYahoo.

http://www.nba.com/news/features/aldridge.2010.freeagency/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt2

[himat]

This hurts Celtics chances at winning the East greatly.

[Amarelooms]

that's cheap is he restricted??? why would boston let him go lol

:elephant

[Booharv]

Allen is one of the top defensive guards in basketball. They have to sign him to have any chance to matchup to Miami imo.

[himat]

Allen is one of the top defensive guards in basketball. They have to sign him to have any chance to matchup to Miami imo.

He guarded all the top wings (Kobe, LBJ, Wade, Vince) for them the entire playoffs. Usually him and Ray Allen would have those responsibilities.

They need him badly.

[Amarelooms]

Why is Cuban and the Mavericks not trying to sign his non jump shooting ass....dude can attack the rim and play solid D

:elephant

[sribb43]

compared to what other piece of shit players have gotten, that is a very affordable deal

WTF is Tony Allen's agent? Thats the best he could do

[BoricuaCJA]

When is the link gonna be put up? It shouldn't take that long.

[spursfan1000]

I guess its a good signing by the Grizzlies.

[bostonguy]

Meh. Good for Allen. He would have helped some vs Miami but not that much. He jumped out of a sinking ship so good for him.

[Greg Oden]

Fuck yeah, this will allow OJ to not tire himself out on the defensive end as much, therefore achieving 25 PPG ecstasy.

:elephant:elephant:elephant

[Chieflion]

Good pick-up for the Memphis Grizzlies.

[Darrin]

This is a big loss for the Celtics. Allen not only is a part of the team before the big three go together, he is also their best perimeter defender off the bench and often spent many nights on the floor in crunch time.

It may not make much difference because I think the Celtics are done, but I think this will really hurt them in the long-run.

[024]

grizzlies must really love the lakers.

[JamStone]

I think some of you way overrated Tony Allen. Yes, he's a solid defender. But his offense is so atrocious, Doc Rivers had a hard time giving him more than 8-10 mpg when it really mattered. Good defender. I'm shocked some think he's a top wing defender in the league.

[himat]

I think some of you way overrated Tony Allen. Yes, he's a solid defender. But his offense is so atrocious, Doc Rivers had a hard time giving him more than 8-10 mpg when it really mattered. Good defender. I'm shocked some think he's a top wing defender in the league.

Not that it matters because analysts can be wrong, but Jeff Van Gundy argued that he's a top 5 on ball defender in the league (sometime during the Finals)...I thought it would be easy to refute that but it really wasn't.

Here's 3 definites I came up with:

Shane Battier
Ron Artest
Kobe Bryant

Here's 3 other guys I thought that could be better but I wasn't sure

Rajon Rondo
Thabo Sefalosha
Arron Afflalo

I think his performance these playoffs may have been overrated, but there is a reason for that. Its because he did one hell of a job and that counts for something.

The kid's really athletic and you need that against a Wade, LeBron, or Kobe.

[Zelophehad]

Not really. They'll replace him.
You know shit about basketball. There's no one out there with his skillset.

[Zelophehad]

I think some of you way overrated Tony Allen. Yes, he's a solid defender. But his offense is so atrocious, Doc Rivers had a hard time giving him more than 8-10 mpg when it really mattered. Good defender. I'm shocked some think he's a top wing defender in the league.

Allen is poor ball handler and has an inconsistent jumper, but his scoring comes on alley oops, cuts to the basket, and transition plays which makes up for his weaknesses. Plus all reports are last year he finally seemed to get it, and played smarter on offense. Plus he is without a doubt a top wing defender in the league. The Celtics will most likely match this.

Chris Forsberg from ESPN Boston writes why this is such a big blow to the C's:

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nba/columns/story?columnist=forsberg_chris&id=5372609

[Killakobe81]

I think some of you way overrated Tony Allen. Yes, he's a solid defender. But his offense is so atrocious, Doc Rivers had a hard time giving him more than 8-10 mpg when it really mattered. Good defender. I'm shocked some think he's a top wing defender in the league.

I think he is a very good defender but dont buy the ABC hype ...

I think some of the eSPN/ABC guys were saying he was the top perimeter defender ...

Tallen was so bad on offense he sabotaged the Celts chances of winning the title.

Before the Finals:
I told co-workers yes allen would do a good job on kobe ...but if he played any length of times WITH rondo ...no way they could win.
When paired with rondo ... Lakers ignored allen and played off of Rondo ...

celts were playing almost 3.5 vs. 5 on offense...

Allen needs to be in an uptemp system on offense (he can finish well) and be used as a stopper in short bursts on defense ...

[Killakobe81]

Not that it matters because analysts can be wrong, but Jeff Van Gundy argued that he's a top 5 on ball defender in the league (sometime during the Finals)...I thought it would be easy to refute that but it really wasn't.

Here's 3 definites I came up with:

Shane Battier
Ron Artest
Kobe Bryant

Here's 3 other guys I thought that could be better but I wasn't sure

Rajon Rondo
Thabo Sefalosha
Arron Afflalo

I think his performance these playoffs may have been overrated, but there is a reason for that. Its because he did one hell of a job and that counts for something.

The kid's really athletic and you need that against a Wade, LeBron, or Kobe.

agree whole-heartedly ...he maybe better than kobe night in night out cuz that all he does but not sure he is the "top" at anything related to basketball

[JamStone]

I think Tony Allen is a very good defender. He's very quick, very athletic, and strong for his size. Plus, he wants to play defense, something alone that separates him from a lot of NBA players. The simple desire to play hard on defense is lost on a lot of players these days.

I think he's overrated for a couple of reasons. First, I think how well he defends is very much a product of his teammates playing great defense behind him. You can talk to great perimeter defenders like Bruce Bowen and Ron Artest, and they'll probably tell you that being a great, and moreover an effective, perimeter defender relies a great deal on your teammates being in good position behind you to not only be help defenders, but to take away angles and drives from the guy they're defending. The Celtics over the last 3 seasons, even when old and injured, have played great team defense. That gives perimeter defenders the ability to be more aggressive. And that's the other reason I think Tony Allen is overrated, he's way over-aggressive. He bites on fakes more than any "top" wing defender in the league. Shot fake, pump fake, and he's up in the air and he's collecting a foul. He's not disciplined when it comes to that. What helps him a lot is that I think Boston as a team gets the benefit of the doubt when it comes to fouls a lot of times. Allen clutches and grabs as much as anyone out on the perimeter. Good luck not getting called for all those hand checks when he's playing for Memphis.

That doesn't mean he's not a good defender. I believe he is. But I certainly think he's really overrated. I look at a guy like Raja Bell a few years ago and how effective he was as a wing defender with no help defender behind him and on a team that was noted as a poor defensive team. And Raja didn't have the athleticism Tony Allen has. To me, that's far more impressive than what Tony Allen has done the last couple seasons.

Guys like Thabo Sefolosha, Arron Afflalo, Kirk Hinrich, Mickael Pietrus are not only better wing defenders than Tony Allen, I think they're much, much better wing defenders. Then you add guys like Artest, Battier, Brandon Roy, and even LeBron, Wade, and Kobe when they want to be, I don't think Tony Allen is a top 5 wing defender at all.

[Killakobe81]

I think Tony Allen is a very good defender. He's very quick, very athletic, and strong for his size. Plus, he wants to play defense, something alone that separates him from a lot of NBA players. The simple desire to play hard on defense is lost on a lot of players these days.

I think he's overrated for a couple of reasons. First, I think how well he defends is very much a product of his teammates playing great defense behind him. You can talk to great perimeter defenders like Bruce Bowen and Ron Artest, and they'll probably tell you that being a great, and moreover an effective, perimeter defender relies a great deal on your teammates being in good position behind you to not only be help defenders, but to take away angles and drives from the guy they're defending. The Celtics over the last 3 seasons, even when old and injured, have played great team defense. That gives perimeter defenders the ability to be more aggressive. And that's the other reason I think Tony Allen is overrated, he's way over-aggressive. He bites on fakes more than any "top" wing defender in the league. Shot fake, pump fake, and he's up in the air and he's collecting a foul. He's not disciplined when it comes to that. What helps him a lot is that I think Boston as a team gets the benefit of the doubt when it comes to fouls a lot of times. Allen clutches and grabs as much as anyone out on the perimeter. Good luck not getting called for all those hand checks when he's playing for Memphis.

That doesn't mean he's not a good defender. I believe he is. But I certainly think he's really overrated. I look at a guy like Raja Bell a few years ago and how effective he was as a wing defender with no help defender behind him and on a team that was noted as a poor defensive team. And Raja didn't have the athleticism Tony Allen has. To me, that's far more impressive than what Tony Allen has done the last couple seasons.

Guys like Thabo Sefolosha, Arron Afflalo, Kirk Hinrich, Mickael Pietrus are not only better wing defenders than Tony Allen, I think they're much, much better wing defenders. Then you add guys like Artest, Battier, Brandon Roy, and even LeBron, Wade, and Kobe when they want to be, I don't think Tony Allen is a top 5 wing defender at all.

Agree with MOSt of this but I wouldn't put wade or Lebron up there they are BOTH GREAT HELP defenders not impressed 1 on1.
Even when motivated they are NOT great perimeter defenders ... more like above average IMHO.

But when focused they are jordanesque on help defense blocking shots from behind making steals etc ...

I will concede though that Lebron in particular has vastly improved on defense ...never thought he was DPOY consideration worthy, but when you factor how good he is at help defense with the improvements he has made 1 on 1 ... and he is very good just not great IMHO ...

[JamStone]

I know you don't want to believe it, and in the wake of the Miami decision it's easy to hate on LeBron for anything, but he really is an elite perimeter defender now. He is just not steals and chase down blocks. He obviously doesn't play lockdown perimeter defense all game long, but he is very much capable. He's even done so on Kobe. Wade is more about steals and blocks than LeBron actually, but Wade is an excellent perimeter defender too. In fact, based on last season alone, both are better perimeter defenders than Kobe was. For last season anyway.

[Zelophehad]

I know you don't want to believe it, and in the wake of the Miami decision it's easy to hate on LeBron for anything, but he really is an elite perimeter defender now. He is just not steals and chase down blocks. He obviously doesn't play lockdown perimeter defense all game long, but he is very much capable. He's even done so on Kobe. Wade is more about steals and blocks than LeBron actually, but Wade is an excellent perimeter defender too. In fact, based on last season alone, both are better perimeter defenders than Kobe was. For last season anyway.
Kobe's block and steal numbers have never been very impressive. Except for one good season in 03-04. I know that's separate from one on one defense, but it shows he doesn't really have the ability to wreak havoc all over the floor like those guys do. Or like Pippen and Jordan did.

[JamStone]

When Kobe was still a great defender (he's not as good anymore), he never was about getting steals or blocks. He was about locking up the man he was guarding. Bruce Bowen never got a lot of steals or blocks and for many years was noted as the premier perimeter defender. It's too bad there are still people that equate blocks and steals as necessarily meaning good or great defense. Quite often, it's quite the opposite. Players like Allen Iverson and Chris Paul would get tons of steals but not be great perimeter defenders. Marcus Camby would get a shitload of blocks and rebounds but not really be a very good low post defender. Blocks and steals are tangible defensive stats that quite often fail to show who are good defenders and bad defenders.

[Killakobe81]

I know you don't want to believe it, and in the wake of the Miami decision it's easy to hate on LeBron for anything, but he really is an elite perimeter defender now. He is just not steals and chase down blocks. He obviously doesn't play lockdown perimeter defense all game long, but he is very much capable. He's even done so on Kobe. Wade is more about steals and blocks than LeBron actually, but Wade is an excellent perimeter defender too. In fact, based on last season alone, both are better perimeter defenders than Kobe was. For last season anyway.

This has nothing to with want ...or the Lebron decision...
I said tony allen was better defender than Kobe ... becuase of the focus he puts in to it ...why would I care if someone says Lebron is a better defender than Kobe? I just said Tony allen was better ...who we BOTH agreed is not the best perimeter defender ...

If you say Lebron was a better defender than Kobe last year no problem because I dont think either one are truly elite defenders on a consistent basis.

And i like Lebron. I just dont believe he is an elite perimeter defender ...
that is your opinion he is and i am entitled to mine.
I consider myself an expert on defense because as a player that was my forte and I see some things in his game that I dont consider elite. i have no advanced metrics just what my eyes tell me.

I think some of the guys you mentioned in your earlier post do things much better from a fundamental and "dirty tricks" standpoint.

Eitherway Lebron is a top 3 player, top 25 defender and a top 10 passer and probably the #1 finisher and a top 5 dunker in the NBA ...

I have no problem giving him his props ...dont lump me in with the Kobe worshiping Lebron haters ...

I have only 2 issues with crowning Lebron:

1- I firmly believe you need to ring to be the best in ANY sport ..
2- I think this move (though i would of done the same) proved he is "wired" different than MJ or Kobe. We said that when he passed up GW's as a youngster and some say it now that he joined Wade.

I was a role player more Artest or Dfish than Lebron or Kobe. But the best guys i played with never conceded anything.

sidenote ...(I hate guys in pickup ball that say "shoot for teams" and when the teams are lopsided still want to play that way.)

I think Lebron conceded he might not be good enough to lead a team that wasnt "stacked" to a title.

smart move by him ...BTW ...at least he is going after the titles cant knock the hustle ...

I guess I was hoping he could surpass MJ's legacy (because I doubt Kobe will or can) because I'm sick of people acting Like Mj can't be touched ...he will someday but not by either one of these guys: Wade, kobe or Lebron ... it looks like.

But back to original point ...Lebron is a very good just not great defender ...and I stand by that ...

if he rings (even with the stacked team) he gets the torch from kobe unless Wade outshines him in the Playoffs and finals run ...

But to give hime elite defender status I need to "see" more ...

[lotr1trekkie]

I knew Bruce Bowen and he ain't no Bruce Bowen.

[Killakobe81]

I knew Bruce Bowen and he ain't no Bruce Bowen.

amen. he may have been dirty but that was an ELITE perimeter defender and his athleticism wasnt great ...

BTW when i used to play ball in SA especialy people used to say I played like Bruce Bowen or Raja Bell ...i hate that ...

I was never dirty ... at least not on purpose ...

[Zelophehad]

When Kobe was still a great defender (he's not as good anymore), he never was about getting steals or blocks. He was about locking up the man he was guarding. Bruce Bowen never got a lot of steals or blocks and for many years was noted as the premier perimeter defender. It's too bad there are still people that equate blocks and steals as necessarily meaning good or great defense. Quite often, it's quite the opposite. Players like Allen Iverson and Chris Paul would get tons of steals but not be great perimeter defenders. Marcus Camby would get a shitload of blocks and rebounds but not really be a very good low post defender. Blocks and steals are tangible defensive stats that quite often fail to show who are good defenders and bad defenders.

I watch basketball too. Jordan and Pippen in particular could both defend well one on one and get tons of steals and blocks off the ball and stay solid while quarding their player, which was my point. They could wreak havoc when the opportunity presented itself plus pilfer the guy they were guarding's ball or block it. Plus they played solid fundamental defense when necessary. Really versatile players. It looks D-Wade and Lebron can do both as well. I know all about low mistake defensive players like Bruce Bowen. Plus you forgot Shane Battier.

Artest is another great one on one defender but also with the ability to wreak havoc by picking up a ton of steals. They're not mutually exclusive. Unless you're a player who just looks for steals like Iverson.

[JamStone]

The point is a player doesn't have to have a ton of steals and/or blocks in order to be a great defender. That's where examples like Bowen and Raja Bell come in. Kobe wasn't considered a great defender because he got steals and blocks. He was considered a great defender for his ability to play great man defense out on the perimeter without having to gamble for steals or blocks.

Blocks for a perimeter defender is a really overrated stat anyway. It generally means that perimeter defender plays off his man a lot or he gets beat off the dribble a lot and has the athleticism to recover and block shots from behind. Blocks for a perimeter defender in fact often means that perimeter player gets beat off the dribble a lot.

I didn't say a great defender doesn't get steals or blocks. I'm saying that steals and blocks don't mean a player isn't a great defender. When Kobe was an elite defender, it wasn't about him getting steals or blocks.

[Killakobe81]

The point is a player doesn't have to have a ton of steals and/or blocks in order to be a great defender. That's where examples like Bowen and Raja Bell come in. Kobe wasn't considered a great defender because he got steals and blocks. He was considered a great defender for his ability to play great man defense out on the perimeter without having to gamble for steals or blocks.

Blocks for a perimeter defender is a really overrated stat anyway. It generally means that perimeter defender plays off his man a lot or he gets beat off the dribble a lot and has the athleticism to recover and block shots from behind. Blocks for a perimeter defender in fact often means that perimeter player gets beat off the dribble a lot.

I didn't say a great defender doesn't get steals or blocks. I'm saying that steals and blocks don't mean a player isn't a great defender. When Kobe was an elite defender, it wasn't about him getting steals or blocks.

agreed. but i think a truly elite defender CAN get blocks on their own man straight up on the release. Granted I have a long wongspan BUt i have had guys do it to me (with shorter wingspans) too if they time the relase.

You are right blocks and steals arent necessarily an indicator of great perimeter defense ...in fact the best perimeter defenders deny the ball well and shut off driving lanes and crowd shooters so that the offensive player is discouraged from scoring. Meaning less highlight plays. In fact the elite perimeter defenders should have few highlight plays ...BUT their man should have low shot attempts and Low FT attempts ... shoot less than their normal FG% and or must voulme shoot to score ...

In that way Lebron does get some bonus points as a defender because his "size/speed ratio" discourages some players from going at him ....but those that do will see he is not all that fundamentally sound...

[Zelophehad]

The point is a player doesn't have to have a ton of steals and/or blocks in order to be a great defender. That's where examples like Bowen and Raja Bell come in. Kobe wasn't considered a great defender because he got steals and blocks. He was considered a great defender for his ability to play great man defense out on the perimeter without having to gamble for steals or blocks.

Blocks for a perimeter defender is a really overrated stat anyway. It generally means that perimeter defender plays off his man a lot or he gets beat off the dribble a lot and has the athleticism to recover and block shots from behind. Blocks for a perimeter defender in fact often means that perimeter player gets beat off the dribble a lot.

I didn't say a great defender doesn't get steals or blocks. I'm saying that steals and blocks don't mean a player isn't a great defender. When Kobe was an elite defender, it wasn't about him getting steals or blocks.
Nah, I think you're missing the boat here big time. I had WGN where I grew up and a ton of Pippen and Jordan's blocks came in transition and sneaking up behind post players and blocking them when they went into their moves (Jordan blocked like 300 Ewing turnarounds from the blindside in the course of their matchups). I'm not saying Kobe wasn't a great defensive player. I'm saying there around 4 types of defensive players.

1. Lazy fucks who seem content to just chill on the weak side and let the other guys deal with it (Caron Butler in Washington and sometimes last year with the Mavs).
2. Guy who play good solid man to man, don't gamble unless necessary, and stay in front of their man. Tayshaun-Joe Johnson.
3. Guys who roam around looking fro blocks and steals above all else. Young Gerald Wallace-You Josh Smith
4. Guy who have the athleticism to roam when necessary, snifff out plays and get blocks and steals from the weakside or by being unnoticed, and a re a force in transition D but don't lose track of their man and guard them close but tight up in half court.

Kobee's always been an aggressive 2 but never a 4 like Pippen, Jordan,

[Killakobe81]

Nah, I think you're missing the boat here big time. I had WGN where I grew up and a ton of Pippen and Jordan's blocks came in transition and sneaking up behind post players and blocking them when they went into their moves (Jordan blocked like 300 Ewing turnarounds from the blindside in the course of their matchups). I'm not saying Kobe wasn't a great defensive player. I'm saying there around 4 types of defensive players.

1. Lazy fucks who seem content to just chill on the weak side and let the other guys deal with it (Caron Butler in Washington and sometimes last year with the Mavs).
2. Guy who play good solid man to man, don't gamble unless necessary, and stay in front of their man. Tayshaun-Joe Johnson.
3. Guys who roam around looking fro blocks and steals above all else. Young Gerald Wallace-You Josh Smith
4. Guy who have the athleticism to roam when necessary, snifff out plays and get blocks and steals from the weakside or by being unnoticed, and a re a force in transition D but don't lose track of their man and guard them close but tight up in half court.

Kobee's always been an aggressive 2 but never a 4 like Pippen, Jordan,

To say he was never a 4 is incorrect but i do think he is below Pippen as a 2 and below Jordan as a 4 in your analysis.

But MJ was one of the best 4's of all time I think overrated as a 2 ...

and pippen to me was was way better 2 than a 4 ...not saying pippen didnt do help blocks etc ...

But he wa sthe one who locked guys down so Mj could do his thing on the help side ...

Kobe when younger was Elite at 2 and GOOD at 4 ...watch him the first 3 peat for proof ...

[JamStone]

Kobe isn't the type of defender Jordan or Pippen was. No one claimed he was.

Kobe has never gone out of his way to get a lot of steals consistently, but he still collects steals at a decent clip despite that.

Also remember that when the Bulls were winning championships, Jordan was able to gamble a lot more because Pippen was almost always defending the best perimeter defender on the opposing team and Jordan had a lot more opportunities to play off his man. I give Pippen a lot of credit for Jordan being able to collect a lot his steals.

But again, Kobe isn't the same type of defender as those two, who are both among the very best wing defenders in the history of the game. Remember this thread is about Tony Allen and how good of a defender he is. I don't think Tony Allen is better than Kobe. The distinction is merely that Tony Allen focuses on defense almost exclusively and Kobe doesn't always have the mentality to be a shut down defender.

[Zelophehad]

To say he was never a 4 is incorrect but i do think he is below Pippen as a 2 and below Jordan as a 4 in your analysis.

But MJ was one of the best 4's of all time I think overrated as a 2 ...

and pippen to me was was way better 2 than a 4 ...not saying pippen didnt do help blocks etc ...

But he wa sthe one who locked guys down so Mj could do his thing on the help side ...

Kobe when younger was Elite at 2 and GOOD at 4 ...watch him the first 3 peat for proof ...
Yeah, ealier in his Kobe was maybe even a 3 and then a 4 but he's settled in as a 2. I think Pippen and Jordan were 4's for most of the careers with Jordan being a 3 when he got his ridiculous block and steal numbers in 1988.

Corey Maggette should hold a training seminar for ones.

[Zelophehad]

Kobe isn't the type of defender Jordan or Pippen was. No one claimed he was.

Kobe has never gone out of his way to get a lot of steals consistently, but he still collects steals at a decent clip despite that.

Also remember that when the Bulls were winning championships, Jordan was able to gamble a lot more because Pippen was almost always defending the best perimeter defender on the opposing team and Jordan had a lot more opportunities to play off his man. I give Pippen a lot of credit for Jordan being able to collect a lot his steals.

But again, Kobe isn't the same type of defender as those two, who are both among the very best wing defenders in the history of the game. Remember this thread is about Tony Allen and how good of a defender he is. I don't think Tony Allen is better than Kobe. The distinction is merely that Tony Allen focuses on defense almost exclusively and Kobe doesn't always have the mentality to be a shut down defender.

Pippen and Jordan were most definitely 4's according to my definition for the first threepeat. Because, and people forget this, they full court pressed an absolute ton. That had them roaming all over the court and their blocks and steals numbers both were important to that defense. In 1993 Jordan led the league in steals at 2.8 only because pippen's 2.9 didn't qualify (Pippen led the league next year). I think from 89 to 93 they were both in the top 5 and Jordan led twice. Plus they both averaged around a block a game.

[JamStone]

That doesn't really respond to my post, but ok.

[Zelophehad]

Kobe isn't the type of defender Jordan or Pippen was. No one claimed he was.

Kobe has never gone out of his way to get a lot of steals consistently, but he still collects steals at a decent clip despite that.

Also remember that when the Bulls were winning championships, Jordan was able to gamble a lot more because Pippen was almost always defending the best perimeter defender on the opposing team and Jordan had a lot more opportunities to play off his man. I give Pippen a lot of credit for Jordan being able to collect a lot his steals.

But again, Kobe isn't the same type of defender as those two, who are both among the very best wing defenders in the history of the game. Remember this thread is about Tony Allen and how good of a defender he is. I don't think Tony Allen is better than Kobe. The distinction is merely that Tony Allen focuses on defense almost exclusively and Kobe doesn't always have the mentality to be a shut down defender.

Well, I'm talking solely about the first threepeat. Like I said with the full court press both players were pressing for steals and blocks and since Pippen's steal numbers were right up there with and in some cases ahead of Jordan's I'd say they both did their share of roaming around, and they also got a ton of on-ball steals. Most of Jordan's blocks were in transition and by blindsiding post players not blocking guys who drove by him:

He usually didn't need somebody to cover for him because he would look and see that whenever he could tell a post player had committed to a move and was very unlikely to pass he would come swooping in from the weak side or blind spot. Pippen did the same thing tbh but niot nearly as often. You can see that 20X here: Nk7QvQufWnw

That's what I mean by Jordan being a number 4 he didn't need somebody covering his man. And Pippen who did cover the top scorer copied Jordan and did much of the same thing that's why they had compareable steal and block numbers.

Jordan was also renowned for staying in front of man. So much so that when Iverson shook him twice at age 35 for a meaningless jumper in a blowout it became a career highlight for AI.


In my personal experience when Ewing would turn for that fade-around there was zero chance of him passing it. Jordan blocked dozens of Ewings fadeaways through timing and the knowledge Pat wasn't passing it.

That was honestly a trademark move of his he would let his guy delever the ball into the post, play coy and then come oer and tomahawk it when the post guy started his move. You could see it coming a lot of the time.

[TinTin]

Agree with MOSt of this but I would nt put wade or Lebron up there they are BOTH GREAT HELP defenders

I disagree because even when motivated they are NOTgreat perimeter defenders ... probably above average ...

But when focused they are jordanesque on help dfense blocking shots from behind making steals etc ...

I will concede though Lebron in particular has vastly improved on defense ...never thoght he was DPOY consideration worthy but when you factor how good he is at help defense with the improvements he has made 1 on 1 ... and he is very good just not great IMHO ...


I know you don't want to believe it, and in the wake of the Miami decision it's easy to hate on LeBron for anything, but he really is an elite perimeter defender now. He is just not steals and chase down blocks. He obviously doesn't play lockdown perimeter defense all game long, but he is very much capable. He's even done so on Kobe. Wade is more about steals and blocks than LeBron actually, but Wade is an excellent perimeter defender too. In fact, based on last season alone, both are better perimeter defenders than Kobe was. For last season anyway.

I have no idea what you guys discussed after this post

[JamStone]

Yeah, it went off track. And there was really no reason to introduce Pippen and Jordan into the discussion.

[Ashy Larry]

good for him .....

[Zelophehad]

I have no idea what you guys discussed after this post
I was trying to discuss what I consider to be the several of the main different types of defensive players:


1. Lazy fucks who seem content to just chill on the weak side and let the other guys deal with it (Caron Butler in Washington and sometimes last year with the Mavs).
2. Guy who play good solid man to man, don't gamble unless necessary, and stay in front of their man. Tayshaun-Joe Johnson.
3. Guys who roam around looking fro blocks and steals above all else. Young Gerald Wallace-You Josh Smith
4. Guy who have the athleticism to roam when necessary, snifff out plays and get blocks and steals from the weakside or by being unnoticed, and a re a force in transition D but don't lose track of their man and guard them close but tight up in half court.

[Killakobe81]

Yeah, it went off track. And there was really no reason to introduce Pippen and Jordan into the discussion.

True ...
i was responding to the comments about Lebron being elite defensively (and jordan) who I think were much better help defenders that disrupt offenses than play fundamental 1 on 1perimeter defenders ...

Not saying either are bad at it but i consider Pippen and bowen to be better at it than those two ...

[Booharv]

Yeah, it went off track. And there was really no reason to introduce Pippen and Jordan into the discussion.

Well Pippen and Jordan are the two of the most similar players to Kobe defensively at least from a skills standpoint. The posts by Zelo echo what I believe in that Wade and Lebron could be free to make plays on defense like Jordan and Pippen did in the early three-peat and they could both end up among the league leaders in steals and blocks at their position even more so than they already are. If they don't gamble and do it intelligently like the early Bulls teams did they could have a helluva defense, even without a great defensive center. Hell, the Bulls never had much of a defensive center/shotblocker and they had one of the best defenses ever.

As for Allen, I think he's a 5-10 perimeter defensive player in the league and would put him way ahead of players like Arron Afflolo from what I've seen.

[MavDynasty]

damn. what a bargain

[HeatChamps]

lol Celtics. Not like you had any chances against the mighty Heat anyways.

[HarlemHeat37]

So, in the playoffs, how much of an impact will the loss of Tony Allen have on the Celtics?..

Kobe shot below 40% from the field in the Finals games + the 1 regular season game vs. the Celtics last year..this season, he has completely dominated them in both games, all while wasting Ray Allen's energy for offense, and then being guarded by shitty defenders like Von Wafer..

Seems like he took away a big part of the Celtics' advantage over the Lakers..

[Booharv]

So, in the playoffs, how much of an impact will the loss of Tony Allen have on the Celtics?..

Kobe shot below 40% from the field in the Finals games + the 1 regular season game vs. the Celtics last year..this season, he has completely dominated them in both games, all while wasting Ray Allen's energy for offense, and then being guarded by shitty defenders like Von Wafer..

Seems like he took away a big part of the Celtics' advantage over the Lakers..

The goods. Thought of how much they miss him when I watched the game last night. Trollinger has been calling him the best perimeter defender in the league all year btw. Says he would be a top 2-3 DPOY candidate if he had played more minutes. He'll probably still get passed up for the all-defensive team while Kobe (and his -5.1 defensive +/-) makes the first team again.