Will Manu start this coming season?

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Or will the Spurs have him go back to coming off the bench?

[Leetonidas]

He only started because of Parker's injury, so I'm sure he will be regulated to the 6th man role again, which we all know he is fine with.

[beirmeistr]

I hope he starts. I think he can stay healthier by starting than being a "sparkplug" off the bench.

[TMTTRIO]

It's time for Manu to start. He can't carry the bench like he used to and everyone wants him to. Also when he comes off the bench he plays with a lot more intensity right away, gets tired a lot more quickly, and is more injury prone. When he starts next to Tim and Tony he doesn't seem to play with the same intensity until later on. Eventually we're going to need someone to replace him and it can't always be on him to be the 6th Man. He's done it long enough.

[DesignatedT]

bench

[Obstructed_View]

Bringing him off the bench is stupid, but the Spurs will continue to do it.

[doobs]

Man, I woulda loved to see Manu, Scola, and Oberto play together as the 2nd unit. I really thought the Spurs were headed in the direction of reconstituting the Argentine NT to be the bench . . . but then Jackie Butler's failtastic play changed all that.

[smrattler]

Ok, if for no other reason, to really limit his minutes and maybe save him as much as possible for the playoffs, I say don't start him.

But who does start? GHill? Next to Tony, I hate that combo, it does not work. We need a guy that can knock down open jumpers, ala Finley but without sucking.

[ducks]

rj and hill should come off the bench


BUT MANU should play 35 minutes

[smrattler]

rj and hill should come off the bench


BUT MANU should play 35 minutes



So, you think Manu should start. If Jefferson's on the bench, who starts at the 3???

[ducks]

the roster is not set
the player spurs sign with the rest of the mmle

[smrattler]

the roster is not set
the player spurs sign with the rest of the mmle

Keith Bogans?

[ducks]

:nope

[ElNono]

He played well with Blair off the bench, and I expect he'll do the same with Splitter, who I also expect to come off the bench, at least initially. The thing with Manu in the first unit is that we run a lot of P&R between Tim and Tony, and so that leaves Manu basically in a spot up shooter situation. I think he helps us more when he's more involved in the plays.

[kaji157]

I would say starting Tony-Manu-TJ-Duncan-Splitter should be our starting 5
with Hill and Blair being our Sparkplug off the bench.

[SpurCharger]

They should bring Jefferson off the bench.... He would play better as the go to guy with the second unit....

[DesignatedT]

I like Manu off the bench. Tony and him playing at separate times for some of the game lets them both get there hands on the ball enough. Manu also has good chemistry with Blair off the bench. It's the smartest thing to do IMO.

[TJastal]

Parker should continue to be the 6th man IMO. Manu/Hill was a great combo against almost every team not named Phoenix. If the spurs can sign someone like Matt Barnes for the LLE that's a great starting lineup -- Hill, Manu, Barnes, Duncan, Splitter with Parker as the main battery off the bench.

[Mugen]

Starting:
TP
Hill
RJ
Duncan
Splitter

Bench:
Manu
Anderson
Bell/Barnes?
Blair
Mcdyess/Bonner

our bench was shit against PHX when manu was starting.

[TDMVPDPOY]

anderson!

[DesignatedT]

Parker should continue to be the 6th man IMO. Manu/Hill was a great combo against almost every team not named Phoenix. If the spurs can sign someone like Matt Barnes for the LLE that's a great starting lineup -- Hill, Manu, Barnes, Duncan, Splitter with Parker as the main battery off the bench.

Oh god no. Hill or Manu are not point guards. Manu couldn't go a whole season having to handle the ball like that all the time. Tony should start and lead the team in MPG next season. He will be our best player.

[Obstructed_View]

Ok, if for no other reason, to really limit his minutes and maybe save him as much as possible for the playoffs, I say don't start him.

But who does start? GHill? Next to Tony, I hate that combo, it does not work. We need a guy that can knock down open jumpers, ala Finley but without sucking.

I say keep Manu on the bench for the entire first half, so he can't play more than 24 minutes a night. That way his minutes are limited. Who cares how hard he has to play during those minutes or what kind of hole you put him in when he gets there, right?

[cutewizard]

Man, I woulda loved to see Manu, Scola, and Oberto play together as the 2nd unit. I really thought the Spurs were headed in the direction of reconstituting the Argentine NT to be the bench . . . but then Jackie Butler's failtastic play changed all that.


Id love to see this also.

Is there any way we can get Oberto or better yet Scola??

[TJastal]

I say keep Manu on the bench for the entire first half, so he can't play more than 24 minutes a night. That way his minutes are limited. Who cares how hard he has to play during those minutes or what kind of hole you put him in when he gets there, right?

I don't see this as a good idea. He'll be stiffer than a block of ice by halftime. Throwing a block of ice into a fire in the 2nd half would result in alot of cracking and popping which would be Manu's joints/tendons/muscles.

[Obstructed_View]

I don't see this as a good idea. He'll be stiffer than a block of ice by halftime. Throwing a block of ice into a fire in the 2nd half would result in alot of cracking and popping which would be Manu's joints/tendons/muscles.

Give your sarcasm detector a whack; it's on the fritz.

[Blackjack]

I say give Manu a leash and attach RJ to it.

[timtonymanu]

I see the lineup on opening night looking like this:

Parker - Hill - Jefferson (Assuming he comes back) - Duncan - McDyess

As the season progresses, I feel Anderson will earn the starting SG spot. If he doesnt do well, then I say Hill is the SG for the whole season.

Parker - Anderson (or Hill) - Jefferson - Duncan - Splitter

[angelbelow]

I hope he starts, I think he deserves to after all these years. Hes openly expressed that he would prefer to start but will do anything for the team. I'm not saying hes unhappy but who wouldnt prefer to start?

Maybe start:
Parker
Manu
LLE/Left over MLE defensive SF
Duncan
Splitter

Bench:
Hill
Anderson
RJ
Blair
Dice

I do see a problem of the lack of play making with that lineup.. so the team may be more effective with Manu off the bench.

[timtonymanu]

Does anyone think Splitter will start right away? Or will Pop let McDyess/Bonner start first since they know the system more than Splitter?

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Does anyone think Splitter will start right away? Or will Pop let McDyess/Bonner start first since they know the system more than Splitter?

I'm thinking Pop will have Tiago come off the bench first and then ease his way into the starting lineup.

I'm hoping when the Spurs start clicking they'll have a lineup of:

Parker
Ginobili
Jefferson
Duncan
Splitter

with the bench consisting of

hill
anderson
hairston
blair
mcdyess

[EricB]

If they are smart they will bring Manu off the bench with Temple Anderson Blair and Splitter.

Lots of good pick and roll and pop plays possible.

Would become an athletic fun bench to watch.

[mystargtr34]

Splitter will be starting on opening night IMO.. the pre season will be all he needs to prove himself.

[TJastal]

What's the deal with Jefferson anyway? I'm assuming he didn't opt out of his 15 million without some kind of pre-arranged deal.

And I really hate the fucking Parker/Manu/Jefferson starting lineup that spurs' fans keep regurgitating out like trained parrots.

[TJastal]

If Tony Parker absolutely HAS to start so little crybabies won't get all butthurt, I'd actually prefer

Parker/Hill/Manu/Splitter/Duncan

At least in this scenario you have two floor spacers (Hill & Manu) to help open up room for Splitter and Duncan. This leaves basically Garret Temple to help run the 2nd unit, which he looks so far capable of.

[ohmwrecker]

Manu is too small to play SF.

[TMTTRIO]

Oh god no. Hill or Manu are not point guards. Manu couldn't go a whole season having to handle the ball like that all the time. Tony should start and lead the team in MPG next season. He will be our best player.
That's why I think Manu should start with Tim and Tony. He won't have to be responsible for producing much and can save all that intensity for later in the game. I don't wan't him to have to carry the bench again like he has every year. Who's going to carry the bench after he leaves? He's carried it for a long time now. Also say what you want but he probably wants to start and deserves to. No wonder he had his one and only All Star appearance when he was starting.

[ohmwrecker]

Start your best players at every position. Pretty simple.

[TJastal]

Manu is too small to play SF.

He's big enough IMO. Barely.

If the board pundits all say Raja Bell is big enough to play the 3, then Manu (who is a full inch or two taller and probably 20 lbs heavier) is big enough.

[Obstructed_View]

Manu is too small to play SF if you've got Michael Finley playing the 4 and Robert Horry playing center. In a scenario where Splitter's your starting center, Manu fits in there just fine.

Personally, I'd like to see how Parker/Ginobili/Blair/Duncan/Splitter plays. You get a lot of size, a lot of athletecism and a shitload of rebounding. You've also got the potential to pick and roll the other team into oblivion.

[TJastal]

Seems to me that the 3 might be a better position for Manu to play at these days. He's not as fleet-a-foot as he used to be and tends to get burned by the quicker guards out there. A move to small forward might do him some good.

[ohmwrecker]

Manu would get burned by taller SFs and . . . Blair at SF? You've got to be joking! I don't agree that Raja Bell is a SF either, but he is a little bigger and stronger than Manu.

I don't think we should be going after Bell at all.

[G-Dawgg]

Our team was better with Manu starting.. Parker should come off the bench.

[sa_butta]

I think he is better suited off the bench, he still brings a spark.

[Chomag]

Manu to be our starting PG! Oh noes!

Yes I said it.

[TJastal]

Our team was better with Manu starting.. Parker should come off the bench.

*busts into typical TP fan homer mindset*

Tony Parker.must.start. He.cannot.be.a.6th.man.in.nba. It.would.cause.
my.butt.too.hurt.too.much. TP.is.the.best. Parker.Hill.Jefferson.to.be.the.
starters. It.failed.miserably.last.year.but.it.will.work.thi s.year. Parker.will.
have.monster.year. Book.it.

[smrattler]

Personally, I'd like to see how Parker/Ginobili/Blair/Duncan/Splitter plays. You get a lot of size, a lot of athletecism and a shitload of rebounding. You've also got the potential to pick and roll the other team into oblivion.

Yes put all of your scoring threats in to start the game. Who cares about bench points, right?

[Obstructed_View]

Yes put all of your scoring threats in to start the game. Who cares about bench points, right?


You really need to listen to yourself. Something has gone really wrong when you're trying to ridicule someone for suggesting that the Spurs start their best shooting guard at the shooting guard slot. Teams have historically started their five best players, and the sixth man award has traditionally gone to the best player who isn't a starter. These aren't new or radical concepts. You're way too close to common Spurs practice to see how bizzaro-world it's become.

Teams that don't develop their young players are the ones who don't care about bench points. Putting in a starter to carry a shitty bench simply doesn't make the team better, it's just stat padding. Manu came off the bench for a decent reason at one point, and the efforts people go through to justify his coming off the bench now are just stupid.

[smrattler]

You really need to listen to yourself. Something has gone really wrong when you're trying to ridicule someone for suggesting that the Spurs start their best shooting guard at the shooting guard slot. Teams have historically started their five best players, and the sixth man award has traditionally gone to the best player who isn't a starter. These aren't new or radical concepts. You're way too close to common Spurs practice to see how bizzaro-world it's become.

Teams that don't develop their young players are the ones who don't care about bench points. Putting in a starter to carry a shitty bench simply doesn't make the team better, it's just stat padding. Manu came off the bench for a decent reason at one point, and the efforts people go through to justify his coming off the bench now are just stupid.

Hey, you ridiculed me for suggesting the opposite, so, no hard feelings man.

Historically, teams put in their 5 best players for each position. Yes. But they don't ignore chemistry and maximizing offensive production. What good does it do to get out to a 7 point lead and then watch it turn into a 8 point defecit and playing catch up?

Manu became a 6th man for the same reason that exists today: Tony Parker.

Manu plays best with the ball in his hands most of the time. So does Parker. If they start, they rest at similar times and you have less capable guys trying to run an offense and produce points.

Why not bring one off the bench? Why Manu? Because he's a great distributor and runs the offense. He makes others better around him. Like you said, usually the best players start... that means the guys coming off the bench are not as good. He is the kind of player that makes them better. And he can go to town and take all the shots he wants, because he has that green light to maintain leads or cut into defecits and he is the most capable player on the court to do so (at least when the starters are sitting).

And you do want your best players on the court at the end of the game, which he is anyway.

[Obstructed_View]

Hey, you ridiculed me for suggesting the opposite, so, no hard feelings man.
Ditto. I'll try to keep it civil. :)


Historically, teams put in their 5 best players for each position. Yes. But they don't ignore chemistry and maximizing offensive production. What good does it do to get out to a 7 point lead and then watch it turn into a 8 point defecit and playing catch up?
Weak benches lose games, and putting one of that weak bench into the starting lineup doesn't make the team better. The times that the Spurs brought Manu off the bench was when they had two or three players who started on NBA teams at his position.


Manu became a 6th man for the same reason that exists today: Tony Parker.

Manu plays best with the ball in his hands most of the time. So does Parker. If they start, they rest at similar times and you have less capable guys trying to run an offense and produce points.

Why not bring one off the bench? Why Manu? Because he's a great distributor and runs the offense. He makes others better around him. Like you said, usually the best players start... that means the guys coming off the bench are not as good. He is the kind of player that makes them better. And he can go to town and take all the shots he wants, because he has that green light to maintain leads or cut into defecits and he is the most capable player on the court to do so (at least when the starters are sitting).

And you do want your best players on the court at the end of the game, which he is anyway.

Sorry, but that's not correct. Manu went to the bench on two occasions as a Spur where injuries weren't involved. The first time it was because Hedo couldn't play off the bench, and the second time it was because Finley didn't play as well off the bench. Neither time did it have anything to do with directly improving the bench. Pop suggested in an interview that it improved the bench, but that was just some additional justification for a controversial decision. The main motivation was to try to get something out of a player that was badly underperforming. Manu's numbers did go up, however. If what you're losing by not having him start is less than what he brings off the bench, it's fine. The Spurs don't have a Turkoglu, Finley, or Barry anymore to choose from.

In addition, there's not a first team and a second team and I think people miss that fact until they consider it. Nobody subs five men into the game at the six minute mark. That's why it's called a rotation. You can give Manu minutes without Parker where he's handling the ball, but having all of your threats on the floor to start and finish the game just makes sense. Always has, always will. I'd love to see someone emerge who's good enough to start, but I don't want to see the Spurs try to manufacture a starting lineup that isn't as good as Parker/Ginobili just so Manu can come off the bench.

[smrattler]

^^ I don't think they're trying to manufacture a starting lineup that's "better". The best team is with Manu, Parker, Tim out there, that's proven at the end of the game when he puts his best players in to close the games. They are trying to just maximize their effectiveness and overall impact on the game. If someone emerges as with a capable/effective jumper, someone that contrasts Parker and Tim and JEfferson who all try to get to the basket, and catch kick-outs and hit jumpers... I think they start him.

I wish this wasn't a discussion, but with our bench, it's an issue.

[Obstructed_View]

^^ I don't think they're trying to manufacture a starting lineup that's "better". The best team is with Manu, Parker, Tim out there, that's proven at the end of the game when he puts his best players in to close the games. They are trying to just maximize their effectiveness and overall impact on the game. If someone emerges as with a capable/effective jumper, someone that contrasts Parker and Tim and JEfferson who all try to get to the basket, and catch kick-outs and hit jumpers... I think they start him.

I wish this wasn't a discussion, but with our bench, it's an issue.

I'm with you that I hope someone emerges who plays well with Parker and is actually starting-caliber, but until then I still submit that Manu's the best option.

What concerns me is Pop's pattern of taking something that worked several years ago and doing the exact same thing now when all the factors are completely different, and we just accept it with the same justifications that were used originally even though it's an abject failure.

[Rick Von Braun]

Question...

If Tony and Manu can play together at the end of the game or the end of a quarter, why they cannot do the same at the beginning of it?

Can they play together at all? Tony needs the ball in his hands, it is the way he plays. Manu is willing to defer, but too much of it hurts the team, since I believe Manu has a better pulse for the game than Tony (btw, this is not a critique to Tony, Manu is a freak of nature).

If RJ remains with the Spurs, I would maximize his playing time with Manu, as a starter and/or off the bench. RJ has a hard time being effective when Tony controls the ball. Last year sample is pretty clear about it, to the point RJ publicly stated his preferences for playing with Manu as much as possible.

Given the same number of minutes per game (starting or coming off the bench), Manu starting produces less strain on his body than coming off the bench. The interplaying rest is maximized by starting and finishing halfs, thus it should be the logical preferred option to protect his wear and tear.

Options:

a) Start the best players:
Start: TP/Manu/RJ/TD/Dice
Bench: Hill/Temple/FA Wing/Hairston/Splitter/Blair/Bonner

b) Manu off the bench:
Start: TP/Temple/Hairston/TD/Dice
Bench: Hill/Manu/RJ/Blair/Splitter/FA Wing/Bonner

c) TP off the bench:
Start: Hill/Manu/RJ/TD/Dice
Bench: TP/Temple/Hairston/Blair/Splitter/FA Wing/Bonner

- I assumed our starting center will be Dice, but this is subject to change (it may be Splitter, or even Bonner --forgive me god for I have sinned--).

- I did not like the TP/Hill experiment. Too long to go over it, but statistically it was a below average combination most of the time (except for very specific matchups). Alas, TP and Hill play mostly separately.

Opinions?

[cantthinkofanything]

I say give Manu a leash and attach RJ to it.

Dirty dirty boy.

[beirmeistr]

You really need to listen to yourself. Something has gone really wrong when you're trying to ridicule someone for suggesting that the Spurs start their best shooting guard at the shooting guard slot. Teams have historically started their five best players, and the sixth man award has traditionally gone to the best player who isn't a starter. These aren't new or radical concepts. You're way too close to common Spurs practice to see how bizzaro-world it's become.

Teams that don't develop their young players are the ones who don't care about bench points. Putting in a starter to carry a shitty bench simply doesn't make the team better, it's just stat padding. Manu came off the bench for a decent reason at one point, and the efforts people go through to justify his coming off the bench now are just stupid.

well said.

[TMTTRIO]

From some of the games also that I remember is the starters would come out flat and get behind. With him getting old and being injury prone we shouldn't make him carry the bench. At least if we start him then possibly the starters can get a great start and won't even really need a great bench. All we would need the bench to do is sustain leads and then we can give Manu plenty of rest later on in the game.

[Chieflion]

From some of the games also that I remember is the starters would come out flat and get behind. With him getting old and being injury prone we shouldn't make him carry the bench. At least if we start him then possibly the starters can get a great start and won't even really need a great bench. All we would need the bench to do is sustain leads and then we can give Manu plenty of rest later on in the game.

Precisely, if Manu starts, Hill and Blair would be the two players most likely leading the bench. Besides, it is not as if all 5 starters would be pulled at the same time. There will be balance throughout the entire game.