Bad news: when confronted with facts, people ignore them

[CubanMustGo]

No surprise to anyone who has read the 'discussions' here, sadly:

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed1


It’s one of the great assumptions underlying modern democracy that an informed citizenry is preferable to an uninformed one. “Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government,” Thomas Jefferson wrote in 1789. This notion, carried down through the years, underlies everything from humble political pamphlets to presidential debates to the very notion of a free press. Mankind may be crooked timber, as Kant put it, uniquely susceptible to ignorance and misinformation, but it’s an article of faith that knowledge is the best remedy. If people are furnished with the facts, they will be clearer thinkers and better citizens. If they are ignorant, facts will enlighten them. If they are mistaken, facts will set them straight.

In the end, truth will out. Won’t it?

Maybe not. Recently, a few political scientists have begun to discover a human tendency deeply discouraging to anyone with faith in the power of information. It’s this: Facts don’t necessarily have the power to change our minds. In fact, quite the opposite. In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, facts could actually make misinformation even stronger.

This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters — the people making decisions about how the country runs — aren’t blank slates. They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their minds. The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct information, such people react very, very differently than the merely uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct information, they can entrench themselves even deeper.

“The general idea is that it’s absolutely threatening to admit you’re wrong,” says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead researcher on the Michigan study. The phenomenon — known as “backfire” — is “a natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.”

These findings open a long-running argument about the political ignorance of American citizens to broader questions about the interplay between the nature of human intelligence and our democratic ideals. Most of us like to believe that our opinions have been formed over time by careful, rational consideration of facts and ideas, and that the decisions based on those opinions, therefore, have the ring of soundness and intelligence. In reality, we often base our opinions on our beliefs, which can have an uneasy relationship with facts. And rather than facts driving beliefs, our beliefs can dictate the facts we chose to accept. They can cause us to twist facts so they fit better with our preconceived notions. Worst of all, they can lead us to uncritically accept bad information just because it reinforces our beliefs. This reinforcement makes us more confident we’re right, and even less likely to listen to any new information.

This effect is only heightened by the information glut, which offers — alongside an unprecedented amount of good information — endless rumors, misinformation, and questionable variations on the truth. In other words, it’s never been easier for people to be wrong, and at the same time feel more certain that they’re right.

“Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines Constitution To Be,” read a recent Onion headline. Like the best satire, this nasty little gem elicits a laugh, which is then promptly muffled by the queasy feeling of recognition. The last five decades of political science have definitively established that most modern-day Americans lack even a basic understanding of how their country works. In 1996, Princeton University’s Larry M. Bartels argued, “the political ignorance of the American voter is one of the best documented data in political science.”

On its own, this might not be a problem: People ignorant of the facts could simply choose not to vote. But instead, it appears that misinformed people often have some of the strongest political opinions. A striking recent example was a study done in the year 2000, led by James Kuklinski of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. He led an influential experiment in which more than 1,000 Illinois residents were asked questions about welfare — the percentage of the federal budget spent on welfare, the number of people enrolled in the program, the percentage of enrollees who are black, and the average payout. More than half indicated that they were confident that their answers were correct — but in fact only 3 percent of the people got more than half of the questions right. Perhaps more disturbingly, the ones who were the most confident they were right were by and large the ones who knew the least about the topic. (Most of these participants expressed views that suggested a strong antiwelfare bias.)

Studies by other researchers have observed similar phenomena when addressing education, health care reform, immigration, affirmative action, gun control, and other issues that tend to attract strong partisan opinion. Kuklinski calls this sort of response the “I know I’m right” syndrome, and considers it a “potentially formidable problem” in a democratic system. “It implies not only that most people will resist correcting their factual beliefs,” he wrote, “but also that the very people who most need to correct them will be least likely to do so.”

much more at the article linked above.

[ChumpDumper]

They're still translating the documents!

[LnGrrrR]

Haven't followed the link, but I would say it's not a big surprise. Cognitive dissonance can be as strong as the Force. "These aren't the fact you're looking for!"

[CosmicCowboy]

*yawn*

Sounds like a conclusion looking for a study.

And yes, I understand the irony of that post.

[George Gervin's Afro]

death panels!!!!!

[Lebowski Brickowski]

when confronted with facts, people ignore them


oooh look, a squirrel!!

[Homeland Security]

That's because facts support anti-humanism, and people are too weak-kneed to adopt that.

[boutons_deux]

"facts support anti-humanism"

what facts? what humanism?

[Homeland Security]

"facts support anti-humanism"

what facts? what humanism?

What evidence is there that your typical human serves any useful purpose or has any value? Why should I give a shit if somebody I don't know lives or dies? What value can a human being possibly have to me outside of what they can do for me or what emotional response they can deliver?

This is obvious. All "moral" systems which posit that humans have value either are totally arbitrary or are based in superstition.

And you know it too. Nobody here is losing much sleep over roving packs of... well, Mel Gibson knows... sweeping through the slums of Lagos at night raping scores of 10-year-old girls so hard that they end up with fistulas for the rest of their lives. Nobody is weeping over children swelling up and bursting open from dysentery in Asia. Nobody is all that torn up about wars leaving thousands upon thousands dead. Oh, people might furrow their brows for a second, might even open up their wallets, but most everyone still goes on with their lives, indifferent to the suffering of these supposedly "valuable " humans.

And I'm not trying to put some kind of guilt trip on anyone. That response is correct. People just like to maintain the illusion that they care because it makies them feel good about themselves. They are too weak to admit that they don't really care, and that they are wise not to care.

But still people go on talking about the "general welfare" and the "greater good." Fuck the greater good. Who cares? What is the greatest good for me?

So, boutons, despite the fact that you are only half-intelligible, you are a total misanthrope, which is the correct position. And you recognize that America is well and truly fucked, which also is correct. Only, I am GLAD that America is well and truly fucked, because when the shit hits the fan, a whole bunch of people who never deserved anything in the first place will lose what little they have. They will suffer, and while in truth there will be no meaning it, I will enjoy it anyway.

People's "cognitive dissonance" fights against the realization that I am right.

[desflood]

when confronted with facts, people ignore them
And yet, somehow, political debate continues.

[rjv]

What evidence is there that your typical human serves any useful purpose or has any value? Why should I give a shit if somebody I don't know lives or dies? What value can a human being possibly have to me outside of what they can do for me or what emotional response they can deliver?

This is obvious. All "moral" systems which posit that humans have value either are totally arbitrary or are based in superstition.

And you know it too. Nobody here is losing much sleep over roving packs of... well, Mel Gibson knows... sweeping through the slums of Lagos at night raping scores of 10-year-old girls so hard that they end up with fistulas for the rest of their lives. Nobody is weeping over children swelling up and bursting open from dysentery in Asia. Nobody is all that torn up about wars leaving thousands upon thousands dead. Oh, people might furrow their brows for a second, might even open up their wallets, but most everyone still goes on with their lives, indifferent to the suffering of these supposedly "valuable " humans.

And I'm not trying to put some kind of guilt trip on anyone. That response is correct. People just like to maintain the illusion that they care because it makies them feel good about themselves. They are too weak to admit that they don't really care, and that they are wise not to care.

But still people go on talking about the "general welfare" and the "greater good." Fuck the greater good. Who cares? What is the greatest good for me?

So, boutons, despite the fact that you are only half-intelligible, you are a total misanthrope, which is the correct position. And you recognize that America is well and truly fucked, which also is correct. Only, I am GLAD that America is well and truly fucked, because when the shit hits the fan, a whole bunch of people who never deserved anything in the first place will lose what little they have. They will suffer, and while in truth there will be no meaning it, I will enjoy it anyway.

People's "cognitive dissonance" fights against the realization that I am right.

this is an assertion that not everyone engages in an endeavor that makes them see suffering on a daily basis and it is a haughty and smug one at that. you think social workers, doctors, nurses, paramedics, soldiers, hospice workers, volunteers or even people who have their own challenges are all living with their head in the sand? not all of america is some luxury spa where everyone purports to stay ignorant of the suffering in the world.

granted, there are those even on this forum who could care less and spend most of their time fitting the world into their neat little box of how the world works but i think you do us all an injustice when you categorically state that mostof america is like that. that faction (albeit a large one) just happens to have the loudest mouth.

[Blake]

What evidence is there that your typical human serves any useful purpose or has any value?

I put my trash out by the curb on Monday nights and by Tuesday afternoon, it is gone.

[rjv]

I put my trash out by the curb on Monday nights and by Tuesday afternoon, it is gone.

:lol

you would think even a nihilist such as HS would appreciate the existential value in that.

[RandomGuy]

No surprise to anyone who has read the 'discussions' here, sadly:

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed1


It’s one of the great assumptions underlying modern democracy that an informed citizenry is preferable to an uninformed one. “Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government,” Thomas Jefferson wrote in 1789. This notion, carried down through the years, underlies everything from humble political pamphlets to presidential debates to the very notion of a free press. Mankind may be crooked timber, as Kant put it, uniquely susceptible to ignorance and misinformation, but it’s an article of faith that knowledge is the best remedy. If people are furnished with the facts, they will be clearer thinkers and better citizens. If they are ignorant, facts will enlighten them. If they are mistaken, facts will set them straight.

In the end, truth will out. Won’t it?

Maybe not. Recently, a few political scientists have begun to discover a human tendency deeply discouraging to anyone with faith in the power of information. It’s this: Facts don’t necessarily have the power to change our minds. In fact, quite the opposite. In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, facts could actually make misinformation even stronger.

This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters — the people making decisions about how the country runs — aren’t blank slates. They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their minds. The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct information, such people react very, very differently than the merely uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct information, they can entrench themselves even deeper.

“The general idea is that it’s absolutely threatening to admit you’re wrong,” says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead researcher on the Michigan study. The phenomenon — known as “backfire” — is “a natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.”

These findings open a long-running argument about the political ignorance of American citizens to broader questions about the interplay between the nature of human intelligence and our democratic ideals. Most of us like to believe that our opinions have been formed over time by careful, rational consideration of facts and ideas, and that the decisions based on those opinions, therefore, have the ring of soundness and intelligence. In reality, we often base our opinions on our beliefs, which can have an uneasy relationship with facts. And rather than facts driving beliefs, our beliefs can dictate the facts we chose to accept. They can cause us to twist facts so they fit better with our preconceived notions. Worst of all, they can lead us to uncritically accept bad information just because it reinforces our beliefs. This reinforcement makes us more confident we’re right, and even less likely to listen to any new information.

This effect is only heightened by the information glut, which offers — alongside an unprecedented amount of good information — endless rumors, misinformation, and questionable variations on the truth. In other words, it’s never been easier for people to be wrong, and at the same time feel more certain that they’re right.

“Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines Constitution To Be,” read a recent Onion headline. Like the best satire, this nasty little gem elicits a laugh, which is then promptly muffled by the queasy feeling of recognition. The last five decades of political science have definitively established that most modern-day Americans lack even a basic understanding of how their country works. In 1996, Princeton University’s Larry M. Bartels argued, “the political ignorance of the American voter is one of the best documented data in political science.”

On its own, this might not be a problem: People ignorant of the facts could simply choose not to vote. But instead, it appears that misinformed people often have some of the strongest political opinions. A striking recent example was a study done in the year 2000, led by James Kuklinski of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. He led an influential experiment in which more than 1,000 Illinois residents were asked questions about welfare — the percentage of the federal budget spent on welfare, the number of people enrolled in the program, the percentage of enrollees who are black, and the average payout. More than half indicated that they were confident that their answers were correct — but in fact only 3 percent of the people got more than half of the questions right. Perhaps more disturbingly, the ones who were the most confident they were right were by and large the ones who knew the least about the topic. (Most of these participants expressed views that suggested a strong antiwelfare bias.)

Studies by other researchers have observed similar phenomena when addressing education, health care reform, immigration, affirmative action, gun control, and other issues that tend to attract strong partisan opinion. Kuklinski calls this sort of response the “I know I’m right” syndrome, and considers it a “potentially formidable problem” in a democratic system. “It implies not only that most people will resist correcting their factual beliefs,” he wrote, “but also that the very people who most need to correct them will be least likely to do so.”

much more at the article linked above.

Interesting, but hardly surprising.

Ancient greece used to pick people randomly to serve in legislative body. They would pick people at random, then give them information to make decisions, and let them vote on things.

A modern test of this system had a random sample of people drawn with various views on a given topic, and then they were given briefings on the issue at hand to better inform them. These issues tended not to be things that the people knew anything about before hand though, so that study didn't really refute the underlying premise of the OP, but when the viewpoint held was fairly minor, it was common for people to change their minds after being given a lot better data.

[RandomGuy]

What evidence is there that your typical human serves any useful purpose or has any value? Why should I give a shit if somebody I don't know lives or dies? What value can a human being possibly have to me outside of what they can do for me or what emotional response they can deliver?

This is obvious. All "moral" systems which posit that humans have value either are totally arbitrary or are based in superstition.

And you know it too. Nobody here is losing much sleep over roving packs of... well, Mel Gibson knows... sweeping through the slums of Lagos at night raping scores of 10-year-old girls so hard that they end up with fistulas for the rest of their lives. Nobody is weeping over children swelling up and bursting open from dysentery in Asia. Nobody is all that torn up about wars leaving thousands upon thousands dead. Oh, people might furrow their brows for a second, might even open up their wallets, but most everyone still goes on with their lives, indifferent to the suffering of these supposedly "valuable " humans.

And I'm not trying to put some kind of guilt trip on anyone. That response is correct. People just like to maintain the illusion that they care because it makies them feel good about themselves. They are too weak to admit that they don't really care, and that they are wise not to care.

But still people go on talking about the "general welfare" and the "greater good." Fuck the greater good. Who cares? What is the greatest good for me?

So, boutons, despite the fact that you are only half-intelligible, you are a total misanthrope, which is the correct position. And you recognize that America is well and truly fucked, which also is correct. Only, I am GLAD that America is well and truly fucked, because when the shit hits the fan, a whole bunch of people who never deserved anything in the first place will lose what little they have. They will suffer, and while in truth there will be no meaning it, I will enjoy it anyway.

People's "cognitive dissonance" fights against the realization that I am right.


it appears that misinformed people often have some of the strongest political opinions.

[Parker2112]

Chalk it up to stubborn pride. the correlation between being wrong and digging in at the heels is telltale.

[Ignignokt]

Random guy!!!!

LOL RANDOM GUY!!!!

LOL INFORMED!!!

[DMX7]

This must have been a study on the TEA Party. They don't like when facts get in the way.

[Parker2112]

What evidence is there that your typical human serves any useful purpose or has any value? Why should I give a shit if somebody I don't know lives or dies? What value can a human being possibly have to me outside of what they can do for me or what emotional response they can deliver?

This is obvious. All "moral" systems which posit that humans have value either are totally arbitrary or are based in superstition.

And you know it too. Nobody here is losing much sleep over roving packs of... well, Mel Gibson knows... sweeping through the slums of Lagos at night raping scores of 10-year-old girls so hard that they end up with fistulas for the rest of their lives. Nobody is weeping over children swelling up and bursting open from dysentery in Asia. Nobody is all that torn up about wars leaving thousands upon thousands dead. Oh, people might furrow their brows for a second, might even open up their wallets, but most everyone still goes on with their lives, indifferent to the suffering of these supposedly "valuable " humans.

And I'm not trying to put some kind of guilt trip on anyone. That response is correct. People just like to maintain the illusion that they care because it makies them feel good about themselves. They are too weak to admit that they don't really care, and that they are wise not to care.

But still people go on talking about the "general welfare" and the "greater good." Fuck the greater good. Who cares? What is the greatest good for me?

So, boutons, despite the fact that you are only half-intelligible, you are a total misanthrope, which is the correct position. And you recognize that America is well and truly fucked, which also is correct. Only, I am GLAD that America is well and truly fucked, because when the shit hits the fan, a whole bunch of people who never deserved anything in the first place will lose what little they have. They will suffer, and while in truth there will be no meaning it, I will enjoy it anyway.

People's "cognitive dissonance" fights against the realization that I am right.

The huge, gaping hole in your manifesto (:lol)...

You will suffer as well. No matter how you prepare, you will suffer. no matter how well situated you are, those you speak of are going to come crashing through your gates, looking for what they can get from your stash.

this is why you should care...because those that you want to see suffer will not suffer long before they make others suffer as well. when you talk about upheaval like this, you speak of losing your own quality of life.

your views might fly...if you were twelve years old with a underaverage IQ

[George Gervin's Afro]

death panels!

[RandomGuy]

The huge, gaping hole in your manifesto (:lol)...

You will suffer as well. No matter how you prepare, you will suffer. no matter how well situated you are, those you speak of are going to come crashing through your gates, looking for what they can get from your stash.

this is why you should care...because those that you want to see suffer will not suffer long before they make others suffer as well. when you talk about upheaval like this, you speak of losing your own quality of life.

your views might fly...if you were twelve years old with a underaverage IQ

The guy you are responsding to is well above average intelligence, and one of the smartest people I have seen on any message board.

He does however, tend to make Debbie Downer look like Richard Simmons, and is quite possibly their love-child, for all I know. :lol

[Parker2112]

The guy you are responsding to is well above average intelligence, and one of the smartest people I have seen on any message board.

He does however, tend to make Debbie Downer look like Richard Simmons, and is quite possibly their love-child, for all I know. :lol

This take is not. It is extremely shallow and short sighted. hoping that a huge chunk of our society suffers greatly at the collapse of our country is hoping for the threads of all of our lives to unravel.

But, I look forward to reading more of his posts if he's that smart.

[Stringer_Bell]

And yet, somehow, political debate continues.

Don't get smart with us! :nope

Misinformed people, by virtue of being easy to misinform, have over-emotional personalities and impulses. It's all psychology, nothing to see here.

[Winehole23]

But, I look forward to reading more of his posts if he's that smart.*.............* is dead.

Long live *.............*!

[Winehole23]

que amarga 'esta fortuna!

[Winehole23]

more bad news: bias and intelligence appear to be correlated; the smarter you are, the worse it is

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/frontal-cortex/2012/06/daniel-kahneman-bias-studies.html

[TeyshaBlue]

Where you been, WH?

[Winehole23]

went camping. when I got back, for some reason my ST obsession got replaced by a bass guitar obsession.

it's been a nice switch.

[TeyshaBlue]

Nice! What's yer axe?

[Winehole23]

cheap Kramer bass (sounds great.) it's a hand me down from my little brother, who's the real musician in the family.

[TeyshaBlue]

Rock on, bruddah.

[Winehole23]

will do. been having fun. also, getting a little better.

[Winehole23]

there was no good reason for me remaining stuck at terrible, and anyway, I think it'll be a nice hobby to have while I slide gracelessly, as we all eventually must, into middle age and demi-decrepitude.

[TeyshaBlue]

there was no good reason for me remaining stuck at terrible, and anyway, I think it'll be a nice hobby to have while I slide gracelessly, as we all eventually must, into middle age and demi-decrepitude.

:lol:toast

[Wild Cobra]

went camping. when I got back, for some reason my ST obsession got replaced by a bass guitar obsession.

it's been a nice switch.
Understandable.

Too many rude and arrogant people here like me.

[Blake]

went camping. when I got back, for some reason my ST obsession got replaced by a bass guitar obsession.

it's been a nice switch.

You're Black?

[Winehole23]

only on the inside

[desflood]

more bad news: bias and intelligence appear to be correlated; the smarter you are, the worse it is

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/frontal-cortex/2012/06/daniel-kahneman-bias-studies.html
W8qcccZy03s

[RandomGuy]

Bump. It is the day which spawned a movement that ignores facts, so this should be at the forefront of people's heads when Cosmored starts bumping *his* threads.

[RandomGuy]

On its own, this might not be a problem: People ignorant of the facts could simply choose not to vote. But instead, it appears that misinformed people often have some of the strongest political opinions. A striking recent example was a study done in the year 2000, led by James Kuklinski of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. He led an influential experiment in which more than 1,000 Illinois residents were asked questions about welfare — the percentage of the federal budget spent on welfare, the number of people enrolled in the program, the percentage of enrollees who are black, and the average payout. More than half indicated that they were confident that their answers were correct — but in fact only 3 percent of the people got more than half of the questions right. Perhaps more disturbingly, the ones who were the most confident they were right were by and large the ones who knew the least about the topic. (Most of these participants expressed views that suggested a strong antiwelfare bias.) - See more at: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/?page=2#sthash.JqR8ZJWy.dpuf

bump.