So lets talk about reinventing education

[CosmicCowboy]

It seems that we all agree that the current system is fucked up.

I'm thinking something on the line of a cloud computing based learning tree. I'm talking an individualized plan that starts at PreK. Let the best teachers in the country do a complete lesson plan for every possible subject that can be tailored to the individual. Kind of like the movies where you can choose alternate endings...question them as they proceed and if they have a complete grasp of that phase then move on to the next. If they don't understand the concept then go back and go into greater detail till they get it. Let each student move at their own speed.

Have mentor/tutor students (in each subject) from your high achievers that are rewarded/paid to help slower students.

Physical "teachers" become more like counselors/facilitators.

[admiralsnackbar]

It seems that we all agree that the current system is fucked up.

I'm thinking something on the line of a cloud computing based learning tree. I'm talking an individualized plan that starts at PreK. Let the best teachers in the country do a complete lesson plan for every possible subject that can be tailored to the individual. Kind of like the movies where you can choose alternate endings...question them as they proceed and if they have a complete grasp of that phase then move on to the next. If they don't understand the concept then go back and go into greater detail till they get it. Let each student move at their own speed.

Have mentor/tutor students (in each subject) from your high achievers that are rewarded/paid to help slower students.

Physical "teachers" become more like counselors/facilitators.

I think you'd have to get kids in physical classes to learn reading and basic math concepts, but otherwise, I think it's a great idea: low over-head, student-centric education. The only other thing I'd add is the need for moderated online forums since half of retention and inspiration to learn more comes from discussion. And the mentor-students are another great idea for saving money.

I can imagine academic fraud might become an issue, but perhaps nothing so glaring that technology couldn't be developed to stanch it.

Anyway, all in all, this seems like a very feasible, cost-effective solution to many of the problems we were discussing in the other thread. Nice work :toast

[CosmicCowboy]

I think you'd have to get kids in physical classes to learn reading and basic math concepts, but otherwise, I think it's a great idea: low over-head, student-centric education. The only other thing I'd add is the need for moderated online forums since half of retention and inspiration to learn more comes from discussion. And the mentor-students are another great idea for saving money.

I can imagine academic fraud might become an issue, but perhaps nothing so glaring that technology couldn't be developed to stanch it.

Anyway, all in all, this seems like a very feasible, cost-effective solution to many of the problems we were discussing in the other thread. Nice work :toast

I thought about the fraud issue. You could beat that by having supervised tests at class completion.

[admiralsnackbar]

I thought about the fraud issue. You could beat that by having supervised tests at class completion.

I thought about that, too, but then you have to figure out what you're going to re-purpose those spaces for when they aren't being used as school sites since they would cost money to build/maintain just like new schools would. You could rotate different classes' test-dates so a larger amount of the population could test in the same facility, but if we're designing an ideal educational environment, education shouldn't have to wait on availability of testing space.

[Winehole23]

Previous discussions with a similar emphasis:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146985&highlight=education

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140826&highlight=education&page=2

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134613&highlight=education

[Winehole23]

Have mentor/tutor students (in each subject) from your high achievers that are rewarded/paid to help slower students.Great idea. This seems like a biggie to me. Students with proven mastery can show other students what they know in real time. Why not encourage them to?

[Wild Cobra]

As long as the teacher's unions are more powerful than the parents, talking about reform is a joke. They will never allow it. It has to start by somehow separating the good and bad teachers.

[admiralsnackbar]

Great idea. This seems like a biggie to me. Students with proven mastery can show other students what they know in real time. Why not encourage them to?

While simultaneously earning themselves money and saving taxpayers the cost of hiring teachers or professional assistants. It really is a fine idea, and it worked pretty damn well in science and math courses at my college.

[Winehole23]

Physical "teachers" become more like counselors/facilitators.I lot of good teachers are that. Technical competence is nice, but it doesn't necessarily translate to success in the classroom.

[Blake]

Have mentor/tutor students (in each subject) from your high achievers that are rewarded/paid to help slower students.



In theory I like it, but just because a kid can ace a calculus exam does not mean he/she will make for a good mentor/teacher.

[Winehole23]

It has to start by somehow separating the good and bad teachers.I don't see why. I see the problem as federal control over the process. Power needs to return to the states, the schools and the communities. Then they can rearrange the schools to suit them however they like.

[admiralsnackbar]

As long as the teacher's unions are more powerful than the parents, talking about reform is a joke. They will never allow it. It has to start by somehow separating the good and bad teachers.

No Child Left Behind was instituted -- at least in part -- because it is so hard to demarcate the line between effective and ineffective teachers.

I think if an online school could be developed into an accreditable program, the sheer savings would force most politicians to support such a solution considering it would cost less to pay thousands of teachers and groundskeepers unemployment benefits while running the e-school than it would to continue to maintain schools.

[Winehole23]

In theory I like it, but just because a kid can ace a calculus exam does not mean he/she will make for a good mentor/teacher.That's no reason not to encourage them try IMO.

[admiralsnackbar]

That's no reason not to encourage them try IMO.

And over the course of class discussions, the teacher could determine who has a grasp of the material as well as a knack for communicating it to his/her peers.

[Wild Cobra]

Why don't we just abolish the Department of Education, and turn teaching back over to the states and communities like it was when I was in school?

[ploto]

Students with proven mastery can show other students what they know in real time. Why not encourage them to?

They already do it for free.

[Winehole23]

Why don't we just abolish the Department of Education, and turn teaching back over to the states and communities like it was when I was in school?Because Republicans don't have the guts.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Why don't we just abolish the Department of Education, and turn teaching back over to the states and communities like it was when I was in school?

So the process can become even more politicized..great idea WC..

[admiralsnackbar]

They already do it for free.

For one thing, you give kids with brains but no motivation to excel scholastically a profit motive to do well by making money doing something they have to do anyway.

********

EDIT: not the best sentence, but you know what I mean.

[Winehole23]

They already do it for free.Certainly. It makes sense to emphasize this too. Students help each other already. But discussion of the role (and very possible importance) of students in the process sometimes gets lost in the melee.

[Parker2112]

It seems that we all agree that the current system is fucked up.

I'm thinking something on the line of a cloud computing based learning tree. I'm talking an individualized plan that starts at PreK. Let the best teachers in the country do a complete lesson plan for every possible subject that can be tailored to the individual. Kind of like the movies where you can choose alternate endings...question them as they proceed and if they have a complete grasp of that phase then move on to the next. If they don't understand the concept then go back and go into greater detail till they get it. Let each student move at their own speed.

Have mentor/tutor students (in each subject) from your high achievers that are rewarded/paid to help slower students.

Physical "teachers" become more like counselors/facilitators.

Or why dont you just take any kid who look like they might turn out to be terrorists out back and shoot them? :lol it was good enough for you yesterday, cc...

NO, but seriously, you miss the mark on education. A tremendous amount of learning comes from interaction with teachers... learning to communicate orally is critical.

not to mention, the more you centralize the education process (like no child left behind did with standardized testing: what a disaster) the more you allow centralized authority (like the dreaded federal gov) to control the curriculum and the standards.

Think: how many local districts/states will be able to afford the setup required to get the "cloud" up and running? It would take borrowing more money/inflation/federal funding to get this up and running for kids. At a time when states everywhere are in the red, this idea is terrible.

[MannyIsGod]

As long as the teacher's unions are more powerful than the parents, talking about reform is a joke. They will never allow it. It has to start by somehow separating the good and bad teachers.

woah woah woah

I hate teachers unions but more powerful than parents is a complete crock of shit. Parents are apathetic as shit in general and they take very little interest in what happens with their children.

That parents are powerless is a conscious choice.

[CuckingFunt]

Schools can't be fixed by just fixing schools. A whole host of other social/socioeconomic issues would have to be addressed at the same time in order to have any chance of creating real change within the school system.

[CosmicCowboy]

The beauty of an e-school is that it can have totally open borders. Done right, 25 year old high school dropouts that have "seen the error of their ways" could go back to e-school from home when they aren't doing the dead end manual labor job they got stuck in.

Anyone could go back and "brush up" on their math or chemistry skills for instance, or try to learn a new language if they wanted to...

[Parker2112]

CC, I thought you were conservative?

[MannyIsGod]

Schools can't be fixed by just fixing schools. A whole host of other social/socioeconomic issues would have to be addressed at the same time in order to have any chance of creating real change within the school system.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Schools can't be fixed by just fixing schools. A whole host of other social/socioeconomic issues would have to be addressed at the same time in order to have any chance of creating real change within the school system.

it's the unions!!

[Parker2112]

The beauty of an e-school is ...

this is clownish. what are you, 22 years old?

[MannyIsGod]

The unions play a part, that is for damn sure.

[admiralsnackbar]

Or why dont you just take any kid who look like they might turn out to be terrorists out back and shoot them? :lol it was good enough for you yesterday, cc...

NO, but seriously, you miss the mark on education. A tremendous amount of learning comes from interaction with teachers... learning to communicate orally is critical.

not to mention, the more you centralize the education process (like no child left behind did with standardized testing: what a disaster) the more you allow centralized authority (like the dreaded federal gov) to control the curriculum and the standards.

Think: how many local districts/states will be able to afford the setup required to get the "cloud" up and running? It would take borrowing more money/inflation/federal funding to get this up and running for kids. At a time when states everywhere are in the red, this idea is terrible.

Skype-like services would make class discussions/interactions a cinch, along with apps that could have all the functions of a chalkboard, and many more. Otherwise, clouds are cheap. Thin-client notebook computers are dirt cheap. Finally, while this arrangement might lead the Fed to try to standardize education, it could just as easily allow States to tailor education to their own needs and economic development.

[CuckingFunt]

The beauty of an e-school is that it can have totally open borders. Done right, 25 year old high school dropouts that have "seen the error of their ways" could go back to e-school from home when they aren't doing the dead end manual labor job they got stuck in.

Anyone could go back and "brush up" on their math or chemistry skills for instance, or try to learn a new language if they wanted to...

There are still schools/families who can't afford computers. Lots of them. Or who don't know how to use them. Or who find them wholly intimidating.

[CosmicCowboy]

this is clownish. what are you, 22 years old?

22? ha! I actually went to high school when they educated people. I learned enough in high school to place out of 26 hours of college credits.

Graduating uneducated idiots at 18 that can't even read is clownish.

[MannyIsGod]

The beauty of an e-school is that it can have totally open borders. Done right, 25 year old high school dropouts that have "seen the error of their ways" could go back to e-school from home when they aren't doing the dead end manual labor job they got stuck in.

Anyone could go back and "brush up" on their math or chemistry skills for instance, or try to learn a new language if they wanted to...


Both of these examples can happen now.

[CuckingFunt]

Skype-like services would make class discussions/interactions a cinch, along with apps that could have all the functions of a chalkboard, and many more. Otherwise, clouds are cheap. Thin-client notebook computers are dirt cheap. Finally, while this arrangement might lead the Fed to try to standardize education, it could just as easily allow States to tailor education to their own needs and economic development.

I resent the implication that Skype is an appropriate substitute for one-on-one human interaction.

[Wild Cobra]

Schools can't be fixed by just fixing schools. A whole host of other social/socioeconomic issues would have to be addressed at the same time in order to have any chance of creating real change within the school system.
Absolutely, and money isn't going to fix any of that.

[MannyIsGod]

Great idea. This seems like a biggie to me. Students with proven mastery can show other students what they know in real time. Why not encourage them to?

This is exactly how they do it at the college level. Tutors are paid.

[MannyIsGod]

Absolutely, and money isn't going to fix any of that.

Not all of it, but it will some of it.

[CuckingFunt]

Absolutely, and money isn't going to fix any of that.

The discrepancy in funding, across the board, between affluent and impoverished communities is a huge part of the problem. Money would absolutely fix a lot of that.

[Wild Cobra]

Not all of it, but it will some of it.
I've seen first have here in Oregon where increasing school spending hasn't done any good. I completely agree with CuckingFunt, and add that any positive steps attempted at the schools themselves, are stopped by the unions, except for spending more money.

[Blake]

That's no reason not to encourage them try IMO.

sure, but it gets sticky when you start paying the kids.

[Wild Cobra]

The discrepancy in funding, across the board, between affluent and impoverished communities is a huge part of the problem. Money would absolutely fix a lot of that.
It hasn't in Oregon. For a rather long time now, Oregon spends evenly among the schools by enrollment, rather than by community tax base. This still get worse, because community moral vales get worse.

[CosmicCowboy]

The discrepancy in funding, across the board, between affluent and impoverished communities is a huge part of the problem. Money would absolutely fix a lot of that.

Maybe a funding discrepancy in California but not as much here in Texas.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Maybe in California but not as much here in Texas.

Are you joking again?

[CosmicCowboy]

Are you joking again?

SAISD gets the same amount from the state per student as NEISD.

[Parker2112]

It hasn't in Oregon. For a rather long time now, Oregon spends evenly among the schools by enrollment, rather than by community tax base. This still get worse, because community moral vales get worse.

Oregon schools suck. they continually rank at the bottom of the nation when it comes to education

[CuckingFunt]

It hasn't in Oregon. For a rather long time now, Oregon spends evenly among the schools by enrollment, rather than by community tax base. This still get worse, because community moral vales get worse.

Is it coupled with any attempts to solve the problems that might be at the root of a particular community's "moral values?"

I think that an increase/evening out of funding is a necessary part of the process to fix the school system, but I've never advocated throwing money at the schools with eyes closed and fingers crossed and hoping like hell that everything fixes itself.

[Nbadan]

Most students in public schools want to learn but you have about 30% of kids in most schools who have never been thought the value of a good education...so they make it difficult for teachers, who are over-worked, and fellow students, who are very impressionable...

[Winehole23]

sure, but it gets sticky when you start paying the kids.No pay, no tips. I'd be firm about that.

[CuckingFunt]

Maybe a funding discrepancy in California but not as much here in Texas.


SAISD gets the same amount from the state per student as NEISD.

I said funding across the board. Affluent communities get more funding, in a number of areas, than impoverished communities.

[Parker2112]

Skype-like services would make class discussions/interactions a cinch, along with apps that could have all the functions of a chalkboard, and many more. Otherwise, clouds are cheap. Thin-client notebook computers are dirt cheap. Finally, while this arrangement might lead the Fed to try to standardize education, it could just as easily allow States to tailor education to their own needs and economic development.

For one, there is a reason online degrees are a last resort.

for two, it is not cheap. the computer in a childs hands does not include the IT expense, which would be massive, and the admin expense. So you trade teachers for IT admins...sounds like a real winner.

three states cant afford to implement it on thier own, THEY ARE BROKE, so they would be forced to rely on fed funding. AND the fed gov would likely be happy to oblige right now...but federal expenditure the last thing we need.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I said funding across the board. Affluent communities get more funding, in a number of areas, than impoverished communities.

He doesn't get it..

[Nbadan]

In TX, Title 1 money evens more of the spending per student avg that rich districts have over poor....but it all depends on how districts and principals spend the money..;..also no amount of money can pay for a parent who cares about their child's education - the number one factor to a good education...

[CosmicCowboy]

No pay, no tips. I'd be firm about that.

I could argue that if achieving mentor/tutor status required testing out as having complete mastery of a subject, then knowing that they could possibly pick up a little extra money gives all students incentive for acquiring total mastery of the subject. It makes learning "cool".

[Nbadan]

I could argue that if achieving mentor/tutor status required testing out as having complete mastery of a subject, then knowing that they could possibly pick up a little extra money gives all students incentive for acquiring total mastery of the subject. It makes learning "cool".

I'm all for paying students for good grades and staying out of trouble

[admiralsnackbar]

There are still schools/families who can't afford computers. Lots of them. Or who don't know how to use them. Or who find them wholly intimidating.

This was a problem in Mexico in 2006, too. There were also questions of infrastructure, since many schools were located in places that had no telephones or internet -- some even lacked electricity or as much as walls (palapas). The solution we came up with while working on a contract for the Secretariat of Education was to cobble together telephone, DSL, cable, microwave cell towers, and even satellite bandwidth to connect all the schools in MX in a virtual private network for the transmission of an interactive educational suite named Encyclomedia.

Besides sending a crew to install the equipment along with whatever specific safeguards it might need (power, ground, enclosure, etc), they would also walk teachers through the use of the rig, in particular the VoIP phone, which was connected to a central help desk in Mexico City by means of a "panic button." We also had regional IT guys who could get out to any school in a few hours to do maintenance work.

Now, yeah, this was a Federal project, but the point is that most problems are resolvable and -- just 4 years later -- at a much lesser cost. People intimidated by computers need only be told how to turn on a laptop in order to be walked through basic functions with automated software tutorials. As for infrastructure, that's just not a problem in this country. And thin-clients are cheaper than the average school textbook when bought in bulk.

[CosmicCowboy]

He doesn't get it..

I get it shithead. Apparently you don't.

I directly compared NEISD And SAISD. Are you going to tell me that SAISD with downtown doesn't have an adequate tax base? Shit, I pay $18,000 a year in SAISD school taxes just from my little place.

You can't blame their 50% dropout rate on lack of money.

[CuckingFunt]

I could argue that if achieving mentor/tutor status required testing out as having complete mastery of a subject, then knowing that they could possibly pick up a little extra money gives all students incentive for acquiring total mastery of the subject. It makes learning "cool".

No, it doesn't. It makes earning money cool, and learning the thing you have to do to get it. There's a tremendous difference there.

[admiralsnackbar]

I resent the implication that Skype is an appropriate substitute for one-on-one human interaction.

You're welcome to your opinion. I personally think it's a great tool, and it helps me explain concepts to co-workers far away that I could only otherwise do in person.

[MannyIsGod]

For one, there is a reason online degrees are a last resort.

for two, it is not cheap. the computer in a childs hands does not include the IT expense, which would be massive, and the admin expense. So you trade teachers for IT admins...sounds like a real winner.

three states cant afford to implement it on thier own, THEY ARE BROKE, so they would be forced to rely on fed funding. AND the fed gov would likely be happy to oblige right now...but federal expenditure the last thing we need.


This post is wrong on so many levels. Online degrees are not last resorts. Every year Universities increase their online capacity and the courses that are offered. Its growing rapidly.

IT expenses are not massive. I can't imagine they're even more than actually building and running classrooms. Physical infrastructure isn't exactly cheap and requires far more maintenance than online infrastructure.

[Wild Cobra]

Oregon schools suck. they continually rank at the bottom of the nation when it comes to education
Yes, quite a few do. Primarily because liberals have run this state for the last 20 years or so, and believe money is the solution, rather than real fixes.

We spend something like $13,000 per student now.

I'm really clad I live in the Centennial school district rather than the Portland district. Very few kids with bad attitudes affecting other students.

Centennial High school (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Centennial,+Multnomah,+Oregon&sll=37.961522,-86.015863&sspn=49.666103,77.255859&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FUA_tgIdCNiz-A&split=0&hq=&hnear=Centennial,+Multnomah,+Oregon&ll=45.494375,-122.476015&spn=0.045244,0.075445&t=h&z=14)

[CosmicCowboy]

No, it doesn't. It makes earning money cool, and learning the thing you have to do to get it. There's a tremendous difference there.

And thats a bad thing?

[CuckingFunt]

This was a problem in Mexico in 2006, too. There were also questions of infrastructure, since many schools were located in places that had no telephones or internet -- some even lacked electricity or as much as walls (palapas). The solution we came up with while working on a contract for the Secretariat of Education was to cobble together telephone, DSL, cable, microwave cell towers, and even satellite bandwidth to connect all the schools in MX in a virtual private network for the transmission of an interactive educational suite named Encyclomedia.

Besides sending a crew to install the equipment along with whatever specific safeguards it might need (power, ground, enclosure, etc), they would also walk teachers through the use of the rig, in particular the VoIP phone, which was connected to a central help desk in Mexico City by means of a "panic button." We also had regional IT guys who could get out to any school in a few hours to do maintenance work.

Now, yeah, this was a Federal project, but the point is that most problems are resolvable and -- just 4 years later -- at a much lesser cost. People intimidated by computers need only be told how to turn on a laptop in order to be walked through basic functions with automated software tutorials. As for infrastructure, that's just not a problem in this country.

I was thinking more in terms of parent response.

Extremely rural communities, and inner city communities, where it is fairly common to not have a computer and/or internet access, are also the communities in which education is valued less. You really think a mother who doesn't have and/or doesn't trust computers AND who doesn't trust and/or value the importance of education is going to embrace a school system built entirely around computers?

[Winehole23]

I could argue that if achieving mentor/tutor status required testing out as having complete mastery of a subject, then knowing that they could possibly pick up a little extra money gives all students incentive for acquiring total mastery of the subject. It makes learning "cool".Introducing direct financial incentives could attract students more attracted to the money than the learning. I'm not sure quite why, but this idea makes my spidey-sense tingle.

[CuckingFunt]

You're welcome to your opinion. I personally think it's a great tool, and it helps me explain concepts to co-workers far away that I could only otherwise do in person.

Adult co-workers.

[CuckingFunt]

And thats a bad thing?

Yes, actually, it is.

[Parker2112]

This post is wrong on so many levels. Online degrees are not last resorts. Every year Universities increase their online capacity and the courses that are offered. Its growing rapidly.

IT expenses are not massive. I can't imagine they're even more than actually building and running classrooms. Physical infrastructure isn't exactly cheap and requires far more maintenance than online infrastructure.

We are not talking about 1000 students here (like an online program might) your talking about a system that would host TENS OF MILLIONS OF KIDS SIMULTANEOUSLY 8 hours a day. When I worked for the State of Texas, we had a 6 story building of IT for the most archaic network known to man. ANd its still stone age technology in that agency.

As for online degrees, you wont find any serious professionals touting an online degree...in many of the places I've worked at, if you were a high level adminstrator with an online degree, you were heckled...at least behind your back.

People get an online degree when kids tie them down, or when they have to work full time. They do serve a purpose, but REAL ATTENDANCE IS STILL COMPULSORY IF YOU ARE SERIOUS ABOUT LEARNING. dont doubt it for a minute.

[admiralsnackbar]

I was thinking more in terms of parent response.

Extremely rural communities, and inner city communities, where it is fairly common to not have a computer and/or internet access, are also the communities in which education is valued less. You really think a mother who doesn't have and/or doesn't trust computers AND who doesn't trust and/or value the importance of education is going to embrace a school system built entirely around computers?

I can't answer that with any certainty, but I can tell you she'd want her child to have more opportunities than she did, and that the diminished tax-hit for online education would catch her attention. You also have to figure that if she's in a poor rural area, she knows how limited the economic options are for someone like her. Are there probably just as many Piper-Laurie-in-Carrie moms out there who would seek to shelter their kids from connecting to larger communities? Sure. But would they make up the electoral majority? Don't know, but I'd lean towards no.

[Parker2112]

Yes, quite a few do. Primarily because liberals have run this state for the last 20 years or so, and believe money is the solution, rather than real fixes.

We spend something like $13,000 per student now.

I'm really clad I live in the Centennial school district rather than the Portland district. Very few kids with bad attitudes affecting other students.

Centennial High school (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Centennial,+Multnomah,+Oregon&sll=37.961522,-86.015863&sspn=49.666103,77.255859&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FUA_tgIdCNiz-A&split=0&hq=&hnear=Centennial,+Multnomah,+Oregon&ll=45.494375,-122.476015&spn=0.045244,0.075445&t=h&z=14)

Ah...Gresham. I lived in Lake Oswego for 4 years myself. Now I'm in central Texas. I miss the shit out of Oregon...bad schools and all. Lake O is exemplary though.

[MannyIsGod]

We are not talking about 1000 students here (like an online program might) your talking about a system that would host TENS OF MILLIONS OF KIDS SIMULTANEOUSLY 8 hours a day. When I worked for the State of Texas, we had a 6 story building of IT for the most archaic network known to man. ANd its still stone age technology in that agency.

As for online degrees, you wont find any serious professionals touting an online degree...in many of the places I've worked at, if you were a high level adminstrator with an online degree, you were heckled...at least behind your back.

People get an online degree when kids tie them down, or when they have to work full time. They do serve a purpose, but REAL ATTENDANCE IS STILL COMPULSORY IF YOU ARE SERIOUS ABOUT LEARNING. dont doubt it for a minute.

I'm not talking University of Phoenix online degrees. I'm talking about an indistinguishable degrees from universities everywhere. I'd love to see you heckle a degree you didn't even know was gained online.

I work part time and although I'm not getting my entire degree online I am taking 6 hours this summer online and 6 hours this fall online. You're right that a lot of it has to do with convenience, and because I'm in a scientific field I would not be able to avoid completely going to class but I don't see the classes I've taken online as lesser versions by any means. There is often increased interaction and the material is the complete equivlant to what is learned in class.

Also, on the costs. You completely ignore that those students you're afraid of having to pay for online are already being funded in physical locations. You think running a physical school is more expensive than running a online school? I don't have figures to back that up, so I'm basically assuming here, but I have a hard time imagining a physical school costing less than an online school.

[CuckingFunt]

I can't answer that with any certainty, but I can tell you she'd want her child to have more opportunities than she did, and that the diminished tax-hit for online education would catch her attention. You also have to figure that if she's in a poor rural area, she knows how limited the economic options are for someone like her. Are there probably just as many Piper-Laurie-in-Carrie moms out there who would seek to shelter their kids from connecting to larger communities? Sure. But would they make up the electoral majority? Don't know, but I'd lean towards no.

Ah. So it's an okay solution as long as it only isolates/alienates a few people. Collateral damage, and such.

[admiralsnackbar]

Ah. So it's an okay solution as long as it only isolates/alienates a few people. Collateral damage, and such.

Our present system is different... how? You have the TSBOE trying desperately to undermine received scientific and historical materials despite alienating a huge swath of people who do not subscribe to Evangelical truisms. Thankfully Texas Freedom Network and others fight them tooth and nail, but in the end, those fuckers got elected and can do more-or-less as they will. I realize that tarnishes the idealism of my earlier posts, but so be it.

[Wild Cobra]

OK...

I did a little research. The 2008 to 2009 school year all funds budget for by daughters school district (Centennial) was $78,080,235. Student K-12 enrollment of 6109. This amounts to $12,781.18 per student. 2009-2010 numbers are what Lars Larson talks about, and he places them at over $13,000 per student.

[Winehole23]

People get an online degree when kids tie them down, or when they have to work full time. They do serve a purpose, but REAL ATTENDANCE IS STILL COMPULSORY IF YOU ARE SERIOUS ABOUT LEARNING. dont doubt it for a minute.http://www.westga.edu/~distance/ojdla/fall53/valentine53.html

[CuckingFunt]

Our present system is different... how?

Why would I advocate trading one broken system that only aims to help some students for another broken system that only aims to help some students, but does it in a flashier and more high tech way?

[admiralsnackbar]

Adult co-workers.

Any interaction requires protocols of behavior, even classrooms.

[CosmicCowboy]

Why would I advocate trading one broken system that only aims to help some students for another broken system that only aims to help some students, but does it in a flashier and more high tech way?

Do you have an alternative solution besides throwing more money at the problem?

[CuckingFunt]

Any interaction requires protocols of behavior, even classrooms.

Not the point.

You suggested that Skype was an appropriate substitute for human interaction because it worked for you and your co-workers. Great. Children aren't adults, however, and school isn't a job.

[CuckingFunt]

Do you have an alternative solution besides throwing more money at the problem?


Schools can't be fixed by just fixing schools. A whole host of other social/socioeconomic issues would have to be addressed at the same time in order to have any chance of creating real change within the school system.

[Winehole23]

What's the connection? How does melioration of social inequities ensure mastery of curriculum?

[CosmicCowboy]

So in other words, no.

If in your opinion the education system can't be fixed until the social and socioeconomic issues of the perpetual underclass are fixed then it won't ever be fixed. There are some things government just can't do.

[Winehole23]

@CF:

More, why have you made it a precondition of educational progress? The necessity isn't intuitive to me.

[Winehole23]

They do serve a purpose, but REAL ATTENDANCE IS STILL COMPULSORY IF YOU ARE SERIOUS ABOUT LEARNING. dont doubt it for a minute.Anywhere you sit down can be a place of learning. Ask any rummy. One person can do it.

[Winehole23]

Let the light of even one candle be lit, even though no one else sees it. God will see it.

[Nbadan]

So in other words, no.

If in your opinion the education system can't be fixed until the social and socioeconomic issues of the perpetual underclass are fixed then it won't ever be fixed. There are some things government just can't do.

At best, schools can serve as a model for breaking the cycle of poverty but they can't do it themselves....that takes caring parents with real jobs, with real pay and real benefits...and adult parenting education....

....nothing wrong with rewarding kids for hard-work in class, its a lesson so few get at home, plus it creates an incentive to work hard, and stay out of trouble....

[CuckingFunt]

What's the connection? How does melioration of social inequities ensure mastery of curriculum?

It doesn't. There are more steps involved.

Furthermore, I don't particularly think that mastery of curriculum is as important as a genuine desire to learn.

I think that increased agency and increased efficacy in impoverished communities would, over time, lead to an increased understanding that not only are the members of that community capable of reaching higher levels than previously thought attainable, but that they are themselves in control of their level of progress. Education is valued within affluent communities because there is a clear understanding of the process/progression: I will do A, B, and C, and it will get me X, Y, and Z. However, when X, Y, and Z seem a completely unrealistic goal, there's absolutely no incentive to bother with A, B, and C.

[Spurminator]

I'm not sure it's realistic to expect most kids to ever appreciate education for the sake of education. If you can appeal to other interests through competition, money, peer pressure, etc., then I say go for it.

[Parker2112]

I'm not talking University of Phoenix online degrees. I'm talking about an indistinguishable degrees from universities everywhere. I'd love to see you heckle a degree you didn't even know was gained online.

I work part time and although I'm not getting my entire degree online I am taking 6 hours this summer online and 6 hours this fall online. You're right that a lot of it has to do with convenience, and because I'm in a scientific field I would not be able to avoid completely going to class but I don't see the classes I've taken online as lesser versions by any means. There is often increased interaction and the material is the complete equivlant to what is learned in class.

Also, on the costs. You completely ignore that those students you're afraid of having to pay for online are already being funded in physical locations. You think running a physical school is more expensive than running a online school? I don't have figures to back that up, so I'm basically assuming here, but I have a hard time imagining a physical school costing less than an online school.


http://www.westga.edu/~distance/ojdla/fall53/valentine53.html

So Manny, your telling me the best thing about online degrees is that sometimes you can hide the fact that it is an online degree? You make my case for me.

The online material is the same as the material you get in class. BUT, you will not get the interaction. INTERACTION WITH FACULTY IS KEY. INTERACTION WITH FELLOW STUDENTS IS KEY. At a minimum you network, and gain references from profs.

and if your talking about setting up a virtual classroom, where all kids can interact, you are talking about serious $$$ on IT.

And what you fail to consider is that kids cant do this at home. kids need direction, oversight. you are still talking about all the same school facilities PLUS the massive state of the art network. $$$$.

And dont get me wrong, my wife is a scientist, and she would consider applicants with an online degree in hiring for lab analysts. But, though you might get a job working for her, it would be hard to get her job (laboratory manager) with an online degree. And dont think your transcript wont show an employer who is considering you for a management level position whether you attended in person or not.

last thing...nothing wrong with an online degree...they will advance some folks, and they definitley provide a person with more options.

But this is only an option for busy adults trying to raise their potential income levels.

BUT: The growth in online degrees does not equate to quality, it stems from profit: people are paying for it, so there is a market, and schools are offering it. that doesnt mean its the best product on the market.

[Parker2112]

Anywhere you sit down can be a place of learning. Ask any rummy. One person can do it.

This is absolutely true. but in order to learn, many students must learn how to learn.

I dont know that my kids will be expected to go to college honestly...the prices are going to be astronomical, and what you say is true...they can learn solo. BUT...there is a different type of learning that happens through the interaction that happens between students and students, students and teachers, even teachers and teachers. And that is what would get left out of our education system if we start teaching from the clouds. And that is no bueno.

[Parker2112]

Anywhere you sit down can be a place of learning. Ask any rummy. One person can do it.

You know as well as I do, you cant take the average kid and leave him with a geometry book and expect it to take any hold.

[Nbadan]

...forget about 'taking hold', most wouldn't do it....no accountability..no motivation...

[CosmicCowboy]

You know as well as I do, you cant take the average kid and leave him with a geometry book and expect it to take any hold.

I certainly DO remember learning Geometry sitting down at a table with my book and doing my homework problems every night.

[Nbadan]

I certainly DO remember learning Geometry sitting down at a table with my book and doing my homework problems every night.

That's not the way kids today learn....they need the social interaction..

[CuckingFunt]

I'm not sure it's realistic to expect most kids to ever appreciate education for the sake of education. If you can appeal to other interests through competition, money, peer pressure, etc., then I say go for it.

Fully engaged parents can be a powerful thing.

[Spurminator]

Fully engaged parents can be a powerful thing.

Even then, it's less about the joy of learning than it is about the joy of pleasing your parents, or escaping punishment. My parents were very active in my education but it didn't make me love Algebra.

[Winehole23]

It doesn't. There are more steps involved.Oh, hell. :lol



Furthermore, I don't particularly think that mastery of curriculum is as important as a genuine desire to learn.Hmm...I seem to have misunderstood at first. Agree to disagree, with this proviso: desire is crucially important, and can compensate for a lot of other shortcomings.


I think that increased agency and increased efficacy in impoverished communities would, over time, lead to an increased understanding that not only are the members of that community capable of reaching higher levels than previously thought attainable, but that they are themselves in control of their level of progress. Education is valued within affluent communities because there is a clear understanding of the process/progression: I will do A, B, and C, and it will get me X, Y, and Z. However, when X, Y, and Z seem a completely unrealistic goal, there's absolutely no incentive to bother with A, B, and C.If you can change people's mindsets, maybe they might orient themselves differently toward their own goals.

Seems like an indirect, if not bass-ackward approach to education, but I guess what some families presume, others must become acculturated to and be encouraged to value, by para-sociological commandos of social progress.

What any of that has to do with education, directly, frankly eludes me. Most people aren't going to be "into" it. Trying to fix that may be more wrong-headed than it is actually helpful, and really, it seems like a total sidebar to me. I can respect the ambition to drag everyone else along, Bodhisattva-like, but its not a realistic plan for education.

Desire, ability and application aren't democracies. Nor are the masteries for which they strive. There's nothing equal about any of it.

[Nbadan]

Even then, it's less about the joy of learning than it is about the joy of pleasing your parents, or escaping punishment. My parents were very active in my education but it didn't make me love Algebra.

...but you learned Algebra, and hopefully used that to springboard to trig or Cal...it takes years for a teacher to learn to foster a love for Algebra or math, unfortunately, these teachers possess work ethic/academic success levels that are also valuable in business too...in the 7 years of math you take you may be lucky to have 1 or 2 teachers that have the needed experience and curriculum to make math interesting and foster a love for Algebra...especially in these days of standardized testing..

[Winehole23]

You know as well as I do, you cant take the average kid and leave him with a geometry book and expect it to take any hold.It depends on the kid. I think I acknowledge that. Schools ought not to be geared to average kids.

[CuckingFunt]

Even then, it's less about the joy of learning than it is about the joy of pleasing your parents, or escaping punishment. My parents were very active in my education but it didn't make me love Algebra.

Well, no. Of course not. And that never goes away; you have to suffer through general ed in order to have fun with electives and major classes in college.

When education is important to a student and their family, though, it becomes easier to accept algebra (or history, or physics, or whatever else) as a necessary evil on the road to something bigger, rather than a sign that school is stupid and not worth the time or effort. I was always a nerdier student than many of my classmates growing up, but there were certainly times (especially my middle high school years) where I hated school, hated the time/focus it took away from my social life, and my grades dropped dramatically as a result. I stuck with it, though, because I was never able to escape what had been instilled in me (and genuinely believed by me) from a young age: that school was important and there was a reason I was doing it.

[CuckingFunt]

Oh, hell. :lol


Agree 100%.

If you can change people's mindsets, maybe they might orient themselves differently toward their own goals.

Seems like an indirect, if not bass-ackward approach to education, but I guess what some families presume, others must become acculturated to and be encouraged to value, by para-sociological commandos of social progress.

What any of that has to do with education, directly, frankly eludes me. Most people aren't going to be "into" it. Trying to fix that may be more wrong-headed than it is actually helpful, and really, it seems like a total sidebar to me. I can respect the ambition to drag everyone else along, Bodhisattva-like, but its not a realistic plan for education.

Desire, ability and application aren't democracies. Nor are the masteries for which they strive. There's nothing equal about any of it.

I'm not suggesting dragging anyone along with something they don't want to do so much as I am suggesting an overall paradigm shift in which, eventually, people drag themselves along of their own volition.

In short, I don't see any way to reform the education system in this country that doesn't either take generations to enact, or require that we willfully label an entire segment of the population to be beyond saving.

[Spurminator]

Well, no. Of course not. And that never goes away; you have to suffer through general ed in order to have fun with electives and major classes in college.

When education is important to a student and their family, though, it becomes easier to accept algebra (or history, or physics, or whatever else) as a necessary evil on the road to something bigger, rather than a sign that school is stupid and not worth the time or effort. I was always a nerdier student than many of my classmates growing up, but there were certainly times (especially my middle high school years) where I hated school, hated the time/focus it took away from my social life, and my grades dropped dramatically as a result. I stuck with it, though, because I was never able to escape what had been instilled in me (and genuinely believed by me) from a young age: that school was important and there was a reason I was doing it.

I agree with all of that, but what was instilled as the reason you were doing it?

[Parker2112]

I certainly DO remember learning Geometry sitting down at a table with my book and doing my homework problems every night.

you had people overseeing your learning process. Teachers giving you instruction and assignments, parental discipline to make you sit down and do it...Wino is talking about completely unsupervised. That takes a very special kid.

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm not suggesting dragging anyone along with something they don't want to do so much as I am suggesting an overall paradigm shift in which, eventually, people drag themselves along of their own volition.

In short, I don't see any way to reform the education system in this country that doesn't either take generations to enact, or require that we willfully label an entire segment of the population to be beyond saving.

Unfortunately, there will always be a segment of the population that is beyond saving.

[Parker2112]

It depends on the kid. I think I acknowledge that. Schools ought not to be geared to average kids.

I dont think gearing them to avg kids is so bad...so long as someone in the loop pushes the gifted kids to reach further.

[Parker2112]

algebra prepares kids to learn abstract concepts. it is not a necessary evil. it is part of learning how to learn.

[MannyIsGod]

So Manny, your telling me the best thing about online degrees is that sometimes you can hide the fact that it is an online degree? You make my case for me.


When did I say that? You seem to assume that every online degree somehow places a red eye on the person who received it. If the degree doesn't come marked as online, is from at a great school, and the person does their job just like anyone else then its simply a degree and not an online degree.




The online material is the same as the material you get in class. BUT, you will not get the interaction. INTERACTION WITH FACULTY IS KEY. INTERACTION WITH FELLOW STUDENTS IS KEY. At a minimum you network, and gain references from profs.


You do get the interactions. Are you telling me that a prof who receives excellent work from a student in an online class is going to refuse him a reference, deny him mentoring, or deny him any other facility? This is ludicrous. Also, simply because a program is online does not mean one is limited to interaction through the computer. I've gotten together with both professors from online courses and students from online courses in settings outside of the online classroom.

Your assumptions are so illogical and horrible that I can only assume that you've never had any type of experience with an online classroom.



and if your talking about setting up a virtual classroom, where all kids can interact, you are talking about serious $$$ on IT.


Do you assume new schools are cheap? Are you telling me it is more expensive to expand an online network once its set up than it is to build new schools? I'd have to say that is completely false.



And what you fail to consider is that kids cant do this at home. kids need direction, oversight. you are still talking about all the same school facilities PLUS the massive state of the art network. $$$$.


The massive network is the internet. Its already in place. I'm not sure why you're acting as if they'd have to go out and build some huge new infrastructure when the one in place right now works just fine.



And dont get me wrong, my wife is a scientist, and she would consider applicants with an online degree in hiring for lab analysts. But, though you might get a job working for her, it would be hard to get her job (laboratory manager) with an online degree. And dont think your transcript wont show an employer who is considering you for a management level position whether you attended in person or not.


How would she know when the course numbers are exactly the same? There's no differentiation and the Universities aren't going to do that because they want to build up online courses not make them some lesser accepted form of their classes



last thing...nothing wrong with an online degree...they will advance some folks, and they definitley provide a person with more options.

But this is only an option for busy adults trying to raise their potential income levels.

BUT: The growth in online degrees does not equate to quality, it stems from profit: people are paying for it, so there is a market, and schools are offering it. that doesnt mean its the best product on the market.

You have given me no evidence to show that online classes at major universities are any worse than any of their other classes. You just assume as much.

[MannyIsGod]

This is absolutely true. but in order to learn, many students must learn how to learn.

I dont know that my kids will be expected to go to college honestly...the prices are going to be astronomical, and what you say is true...they can learn solo. BUT...there is a different type of learning that happens through the interaction that happens between students and students, students and teachers, even teachers and teachers. And that is what would get left out of our education system if we start teaching from the clouds. And that is no bueno.

Online classes =/= Correspondence courses where you learn on your own. Maybe this is why you're having trouble connecting the dots here about how online courses have lots of interaction. I'm not sure how old you are but I'm pretty certain after your series of posts that when you (assuming you have a degree) were getting your degree online courses were not available or the norm and perhaps you are comparing them to correspondence courses.

If that's the case then I understand your beefs and your concerns but the two are not very similar other than they are both forms of distance education.l

[CuckingFunt]

I agree with all of that, but what was instilled as the reason you were doing it?

The direct incentive/reason presented to me was that an education was the first step in ensuring that I had as many opportunities and options available to me to be able to make my life what I wanted, rather than being forced to settle for whatever life I could get. The implication, of course, is that these opportunities bring with them the financial freedom to meander through life making choices, so it would be disingenuous to suggest that money wasn't at all an incentive, but it's hardly the same as "get an A and I'll give you $20."

[Winehole23]

I'm not suggesting dragging anyone along with something they don't want to do so much as I am suggesting an overall paradigm shift in which, eventually, people drag themselves along of their own volition.Is the paradigm shifting, in your view?


In short, I don't see any way to reform the education system in this country that doesn't either take generations to enact, or require that we willfully label an entire segment of the population to be beyond saving.Who requires this? Anybody who cares enough can educate him/herself in spite of the "labels", whatever you mean by that.

No one is beyond saving, unless he/she is already dead.

[CuckingFunt]

Unfortunately, there will always be a segment of the population that is beyond saving.

Only if you're willing to accept that as truth. I'm not.

[MannyIsGod]

you had people overseeing your learning process. Teachers giving you instruction and assignments, parental discipline to make you sit down and do it...Wino is talking about completely unsupervised. That takes a very special kid.

How would online learning be completely unsupervised? Every element you mentioned above would still be involved.

[CosmicCowboy]

Only if you're willing to accept that as truth. I'm not.

It goes to desire, motivation and human nature and that can't be taught.

[MannyIsGod]

Only if you're willing to accept that as truth. I'm not.

Eh, I hate to agree with CC but he's right. If success is only measured by saving everyone then we're never going to be successful.

[CuckingFunt]

It goes to desire, motivation and human nature and that can't be taught.

No one exists in a vacuum.

[Parker2112]

When did I say that? You seem to assume that every online degree somehow places a red eye on the person who received it. If the degree doesn't come marked as online, is from at a great school, and the person does their job just like anyone else then its simply a degree and not an online degree.



You do get the interactions. Are you telling me that a prof who receives excellent work from a student in an online class is going to refuse him a reference, deny him mentoring, or deny him any other facility? This is ludicrous. Also, simply because a program is online does not mean one is limited to interaction through the computer. I've gotten together with both professors from online courses and students from online courses in settings outside of the online classroom.

Your assumptions are so illogical and horrible that I can only assume that you've never had any type of experience with an online classroom.



Do you assume new schools are cheap? Are you telling me it is more expensive to expand an online network once its set up than it is to build new schools? I'd have to say that is completely false.



The massive network is the internet. Its already in place. I'm not sure why you're acting as if they'd have to go out and build some huge new infrastructure when the one in place right now works just fine.



How would she know when the course numbers are exactly the same? There's no differentiation and the Universities aren't going to do that because they want to build up online courses not make them some lesser accepted form of their classes



You have given me no evidence to show that online classes at major universities are any worse than any of their other classes. You just assume as much.

Huge difference in ONLINE CLASSES and ONLINE DEGREES. I've taken online courses, I know the routine. But I also taken doctoral level classes. And I can tell you, in the top levels of academia, there is no set curriculum. Why is that? Because the interaction is where the learning happens. Not occasional interaction, but constant interaction over the entire class period and beyond.

And there isnt anything wrong with online degrees. They are a stepping stone to success. Success is different things to different people. Its not a red eye.

I'm telling you from the point of view of someone who has two degrees, and has a 20 year work history. My wife and I are both professionals. If you dont buy what I'm saying, then dont listen.

As for the network, all the lesson plans, hosting, hardware dont come included with the internet. And you will need tons for an interactive network. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[CuckingFunt]

Eh, I hate to agree with CC but he's right. If success is only measured by saving everyone then we're never going to be successful.

I don't know that success is/should be measured by whether or not we save everyone, but I'd think giving up on people is a pretty good way to measure failure.

[boutons_deux]

Suburbs' $100,000 teachers


http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/07/chicago-area-teachers-top-state-in-earning-six-figure-salaries.html

===========

Which is nothing compared to the $800K/year for city manager of Bell CA (pop 30K), and $100K/year for board members (avg elsewhere: $400/month)

[CosmicCowboy]

I don't know that success is/should be measured by whether or not we save everyone, but I'd think giving up on people is a pretty good way to measure failure.

You are always gonna have your gang bangers and your wanna be gangsters. It's always been that way and theres nothing we can do that will change it.

[MannyIsGod]

Huge difference in ONLINE CLASSES and ONLINE DEGREES. I've taken online courses, I know the routine. But I also taken doctoral level classes. And I can tell you, in the top levels of academia, there is no set curriculum. Why is that? Because the interaction is where the learning happens. Not occasional interaction, but constant interaction over the entire class period and beyond.


Doctoral research =/= undergrad studies =/= k-12 studies. You're moving goalposts here. What is acceptable for doctoral research really has no meaning on what would be acceptable for children or undergraduate degree programs

In any event, almost every major university provides online degree programs for many of their studies now and those degrees are every bit the degree you would get by attending courses on their campus.



And there isnt anything wrong with online degrees. They are a stepping stone to success. Success is different things to different people. Its not a red eye.


Yet you laugh at the people who have them? Makes sense I guess.



I'm telling you from the point of view of someone who has two degrees, and has a 20 year work history. My wife and I are both professionals. If you dont buy what I'm saying, then dont listen.


You're certainly entitled to your point of view and I don't believe I've ever stated otherwise but I don't think you should take your ball and want to go home just because I'm posting something contrary to what you think is happening.

You are the one who has been continuous in saying there is no supervision and there is no interaction and frankly both statements are simply false.



As for the network, all the lesson plans, hosting, hardware dont come included with the internet. And you will need tons for an interactive network. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Once again, you simply ignore the costs of operating physical schools. No one is saying that operating schools online would be free, but the amount they would cost only matters in the context of comparing it to what physical schools cost.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't know that success is/should be measured by whether or not we save everyone, but I'd think giving up on people is a pretty good way to measure failure.

CF you're playing with words here. If we started a program that passed 95% of its students then that isn't saying you're giving up on 5% by any means.

[Winehole23]

algebra prepares kids to learn abstract concepts. it is not a necessary evil. it is part of learning how to learn.Your point, profe?

Was that an elaboration of some previous point, or have you started on a new one?

[CuckingFunt]

You are always gonna have your gang bangers and your wanna be gangsters. It's always been that way and theres nothing we can do that will change it.

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/4579/flandersbeatnikparents.png

"Man, I've tried nothin' and I'm all out of ideas."

[Parker2112]

Your point, profe?

Was that an elaboration of some previous point, or have you started on a new one?

more of an observation. Response to the other posting I quoted.

[Winehole23]

@CF:

Classic line. One of my ATFs.

[CuckingFunt]

CF you're playing with words here. If we started a program that passed 95% of its students then that isn't saying you're giving up on 5% by any means.

In my original comment, though, I wasn't hinting at/talking about a program in which not every student succeeded. I was suggesting a program/mindset in which we determine, as part of its structure, that certain students/types of students lacked the ability to ever be successful in school.

[Winehole23]

more of an observation. Response to the other posting I quoted.I seem to have missed the observation.

(My bad: I'll try to catch up.)

[Parker2112]

Doctoral research =/= undergrad studies =/= k-12 studies. You're moving goalposts here. What is acceptable for doctoral research really has no meaning on what would be acceptable for children or undergraduate degree programs

In any event, almost every major university provides online degree programs for many of their studies now and those degrees are every bit the degree you would get by attending courses on their campus.



Yet you laugh at the people who have them? Makes sense I guess.



You're certainly entitled to your point of view and I don't believe I've ever stated otherwise but I don't think you should take your ball and want to go home just because I'm posting something contrary to what you think is happening.

You are the one who has been continuous in saying there is no supervision and there is no interaction and frankly both statements are simply false.



Once again, you simply ignore the costs of operating physical schools. No one is saying that operating schools online would be free, but the amount they would cost only matters in the context of comparing it to what physical schools cost.

Manny, Its up to every man to pull himself up by the bootstraps, and you cant look down own anyone for doing just that. I was born on the South Side of San Antonio. I worked on my undergrad for ten years while I supported a family with two and three jobs. I dont laugh at anyone who pursues education. But the fact remains, online DEGREE is not the same education as actually attending classes.

[CosmicCowboy]

Manny, Its up to every man to pull himself up by the bootstraps, and you cant look down own anyone for doing just that. I was born on the South Side of San Antonio. I worked on my undergrad for ten years while I supported a family with two and three jobs. I dont laugh at anyone who pursues education. But the fact remains, online DEGREE is not the same education as actually attending classes.

Spoken like a true doctorate snob. What was your degree in again?

[MannyIsGod]

Manny, Its up to every man to pull himself up by the bootstraps, and you cant look down own anyone for doing just that. I was born on the South Side of San Antonio. I worked on my undergrad for ten years while I supported a family with two and three jobs. I dont laugh at anyone who pursues education. But the fact remains, online DEGREE is not the same education as actually attending classes.

Because you say so? Prove it.

[Nbadan]

Parker is right...online education is not the same as attending classes....convenient, but not the same

[MannyIsGod]

Ok, so prove it.

[Wild Cobra]

But the fact remains, online DEGREE is not the same education as actually attending classes.
Yes, I agree.

With the online degree you don't get indoctrination 101 thru 205 as part of your fees.

[Winehole23]

Yes, I agree.

With the online degree you don't get indoctrination 101 thru 205 as part of your fees.Why not?

[spurster]

I think the classroom has an advantage, but the vast majority of time, that advantage goes to waste. Online learning is clearly where the future is. I would guess that a lot of homeschooling is being done via online learning, and homeschoolers generally do better on tests and such (of course, it's a self-selected group). If a big change came, I think it would when nearly all of the K-12 can be done online, and the parents who care drop out of the public schools in droves.

[DMX7]

Seemingly every consumer fraud website has an entire complaint section dedicated to the University of Phoenix.

[desflood]

No one exists in a vacuum.
You should meet my sister-in-law sometime. You'd retract that statement.

More to the point of the thread, I agree with your stance that you would need to pinpoint and "fix" what is wrong with the general population in order to resolve the education dilemma. Problem is, in plain terms, you can't fix stupid.

It's too late to reinvent the education system - I don't think anyone is independant or willful or intelligent or creative enough to do it anymore. I think a big step in the right direction, however, would be to abolish compulsory education.

[spursncowboys]

Heard on the Jim Rome radio show when he interviewed the Admiral that D-Rob is starting a virtual K-12 private school.

[desflood]

Heard on the Jim Rome radio show when he interviewed the Admiral that D-Rob is starting a virtual K-12 private school.
Yes, it's up and running. Tuition is $6,500 per student, with 2k of that due up front as an "enrollment fee".

[LnGrrrR]

My online courses are harder than my "in-person" courses. Not sure if that's due to the coursework, or lack of good interaction with my profs online.

[DMX7]

My online courses are harder than my "in-person" courses. Not sure if that's due to the coursework, or lack of good interaction with my profs online.

Where do you go to school?

[LnGrrrR]

Where do you go to school?

Hawaii Pacific University. Not the greatest, but I can't go to Tulane anymore. (Plan on finishing my associates through Tulane, but I have to take some classes through HPU first. Assuming I don't get deployed in the meanwhile :lol)

Anyways, the homework they throw out constitutes a good deal of work, plus some of the tests are really anal about how answers are submitted.