The official "He'll be better in his second year" thread

[benefactor]

In the spirit of the "It's only December" thread, we have yet another age old Spurs fan argument for the careless spending on RJ. So here's to you RJ...you are now well paid and in your second year in the system. I have zero doubt that you will morph into some combination of Melo, LeBron and Kobe. :toast

[Chomag]

OF course he will be! RJ has been working out with Pop all summer long! Truth!

(edit) Hmm, maybe I should have posted this as a blue

[HarlemHeat37]

Uhhhhh, he's obviously going to be much better..

He's over 30 and relies strictly on athleticism..players like that always get better with age, it's common knowledge..


OF course he will be! RJ has been working out with Pop all summer long! Truth!

:lol

[benefactor]

Uhhhhh, he's obviously going to be much better..

He's over 30 and relies strictly on athleticism..players like that always get better with age, it's common knowledge..



:lol
+1

Excellent post. I don't see why this is so hard for people to understand.

[benefactor]

OF course he will be! RJ has been working out with Pop all summer long! Truth!

(edit) Hmm, maybe I should have posted this as a blue
:lol

No blue necessary. We are about facts in this thread.

[HankChinaski]

He's in a playoff contending team, an all around stand up organization, HoF players and coach, got a contract deal that gave him security and after a previous season with high expectations of him pulling us a trophy he'll certainly have less expectations and pressure to produce as he did last season. Not to say he isn't going to be pressured to produce this year. But with his contract secured the only thing he'll have to worry about is adapting his game further along with the spurs system.

[hater]

Sorry but not buying it. Jefferson will be marginally better at best.

Same things were said about Mason, Bonner and other suck ass players.

[ohmwrecker]

Oh, good. Another RJ thread full of extremist, absolutist, obsessively negative bullshit.

Question: When are we going to move on?

The deed is done, the pickings were slim
It's not your money, you're not in the gym
We were never getting LeBron instead
Did we really need another RJ thread?

[xellos88330]

Sorry but not buying it. Jefferson will be marginally better at best.

Same things were said about Mason, Bonner and other suck ass players.

At least it is an improvement. Figuring out how to maximize RJ's talents in this system will definitely be a challenge for the Spurs.

Considering the way the roster has been shaping up, it looks like the Spurs will be a more offensive team again this next season.

I expect RJ's numbers to be better than last years.

[Cane]

Another gem of a thread by the OP :toast:


Let's face reality here...Tim Duncan is done. He's done. He had played like 18 minutes before the beginning of the 4th and could not carry the team past the Nets. The night before he only played 26 minutes.

What's the point in trying again? I've said this before but it's looking more and more like a reality...the Spurs are dangerously close to becoming the early 2000's Utah Jazz. They should let Manu go and trade RJ for straight expirings. I don't even care if they get a decent draft pick in return. They should probably think about getting whatever value they can get for Parker also. I'm not sure what they do with Duncan. They should not trade him, but perhaps sitting down with him and discussing a plan for rebuilding might be a good idea. I doubt he would want to stay around if the Spurs weren't going to be competitive, so maybe they could work out a buyout for him so he could retire.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4194739#post4194739




:toast

[ElNono]

Well, let's hope he does. It's not like we have a choice at this point.

[ElNono]

The deed is done, the pickings were slim
It's not your money, you're not in the gym
We were never getting LeBron instead
Did we really need another RJ thread?

:lol

[Dex]

RJ is still going to be RJ, with just a marginally better understanding of the schemes and where to be on the court. That being said, I didn't see a whole lot of improvement over last season, so I'm skeptical about what to expect for the next.

The best Spurs fans can hope for is that RJ was really in a funk last season (whether it be due to the new team, overcompensating, or just a tough year) and that he somehow snaps out of it and has a good season near his previous standards.

[HankChinaski]

Bonner was shooting at a nice clip till the injury. And the previous seasons in the post season combine with his showings at 3pt range hurt him. He certainly has given himself a label that he needs to shed off. Despite his limitations he always does give something from coming off the bench.

Mason's skill sets didn't change, our TEAM did after one season. We went from a marginally offensive scoring team to a 98 to 100 ppg team with the addition of players in the previous off season. His role in the system changed and his numbers and confidence fell in regards to it. He needs the ball in his hands to be effective. He didn't have it consistently and began to plummet.

RJ despite his flaws in the spurs system last season was good, not great certainly did not have the kind of numbers you want for a man with his salary.

With the off season mostly over now, at least for the spurs. I can speculate with my friend over what the team will look like coming into the start of the season. Team still added potential and does look younger.

I'm content and looking forward for the season to start.

[My Fault]

Classic meltdown thread. Deal is done nothing will change that. I agree he was overpaid but disagree that he will not do better next year. Pop is a great coach and I trust he will find a way to get the most from this team. If not he failed and it was a great run. Things must come to an end and in 2 years RJ's deal will mean nothing as the Spurs will be nothing more than a lottery team.

[angelbelow]

What is the purpose of this thread? To poke fun at people who do this? In turn you are promoting it yourself.

[4>0rings]

Bene's attitude has done a 180 from last year from what I can tell. Welcome to the right side. :toast

[Cane]

What is the purpose of this thread? To poke fun at people who do this? In turn you are promoting it yourself.

OP already made an RJ thread yesterday as well :downspin:

[DesignatedT]

Originally Posted by benefactor
Let's face reality here...Tim Duncan is done. He's done. He had played like 18 minutes before the beginning of the 4th and could not carry the team past the Nets. The night before he only played 26 minutes.

What's the point in trying again? I've said this before but it's looking more and more like a reality...the Spurs are dangerously close to becoming the early 2000's Utah Jazz. They should let Manu go and trade RJ for straight expirings. I don't even care if they get a decent draft pick in return. They should probably think about getting whatever value they can get for Parker also. I'm not sure what they do with Duncan. They should not trade him, but perhaps sitting down with him and discussing a plan for rebuilding might be a good idea. I doubt he would want to stay around if the Spurs weren't going to be competitive, so maybe they could work out a buyout for him so he could retire.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthre...39#post4194739



:lmao this is almost as bad as the "fuck Tim Duncan ". Thread

[DesignatedT]

I didn't realize a player averaging 18 and 10 on 52% shooting in 31 minutes was "done". what a joke.

[benefactor]

What is the purpose of this thread? To poke fun at people who do this? In turn you are promoting it yourself.
It's to focus on the important fact that RJ will be better because it's his second year. I'm not sure where the confusion is.

[benefactor]

:lmao this is almost as bad as the "fuck Tim Duncan ". Thread
Go to the last post in that thread. :wakeup

[Cane]

I didn't realize a player averaging 18 and 10 on 52% shooting in 31 minutes was "done". what a joke.

:lol

[benefactor]

Let's stay focused now. This thread is not about me....it's about the ass kicking RJ is going to give the league next year because he will be paid, a year older and most importantly it's his second year. :tu

[cd98]

I didn't realize a player averaging 18 and 10 on 52% shooting in 31 minutes was "done". what a joke.

Well, if the age argument applies to Jefferson, then it must apply to Duncan and Manu.

[Mel_13]

Let's stay focused now. This thread is not about me....it's about the ass kicking RJ is going to give the league next year because he will be paid, a year older and most importantly it's his second year. :tu

:lol

You should know by now that every thread can be about the thread starter, if he leaves the door open....

:corn:

[benefactor]

:lol

You should know by now that every thread can be about the thread starter, if he leaves the door open....

:corn:
The funny thing they are reaching for ammo that is irrelevant. I admitted long ago that I was wrong and was happy to be wrong.

[Brazil]

of course he will be better, he cannot be worst... right ?

[Cane]

The funny thing they are reaching for ammo that is irrelevant. I admitted long ago that I was wrong and was happy to be wrong.

You only admitted about being wrong about Duncan tbh. Flip-flopping like that is pretty awful as well imo. According to you, the FO should've traded Manu, RJ, Parker etc and you didn't care about a decent return or not.

Where's that list of basketball forum types? Imo you're the stupid pessimist especially since you already started an RJ thread yesterday and you've been around here for a while :toast

[benefactor]

:flag:

[angelbelow]

It's to focus on the important fact that RJ will be better because it's his second year. I'm not sure where the confusion is.

The confusion is why a poster like you is attempting to troll the spurs forum like its the fucking nba forum.

[benefactor]

You only admitted about being wrong about Duncan tbh. Flip-flopping like that is pretty awful as well imo. According to you, the FO should've traded Manu, RJ, Parker etc and you didn't care about a decent return or not.

Where's that list of basketball forum types? Imo you're the stupid pessimist especially since you already started an RJ thread yesterday and you've been around here for a while :toast
Careful throwing stones, my friend.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153976

[Cane]

Careful throwing stones, my friend.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153976

Yup, except unlike you thread I wouldn't trade Tony Parker for scraps (in fact I wouldn't trade him at all unless it was a damn good deal and said as much) and I don't go emo and post new threads when my panties get in a bunch like you've done so far with the RJ threads.

I also didn't say Duncan, Manu, etc were done or that the entire Spurs FO should just give up. :toast

[elemento]

With such a pathetic season he can't be worse right

[benefactor]

Why so negative in this thread? Isn't him getting better a good thing?

[Cane]

Why so negative in this thread? Isn't him getting better a good thing?

Probably because of the tone of the OP and your posting history:


In the spirit of the "It's only December" thread, we have yet another age old Spurs fan argument for the careless spending on RJ. So here's to you RJ...you are now well paid and in your second year in the system. I have zero doubt that you will morph into some combination of Melo, LeBron and Kobe. :toast

[benefactor]

With such a pathetic season he can't be worse right
That's the spirit. :toast

[Kermit]

Lot of butthurt over the RJ signing. That's just the way he likes it. Alledgedly.

[angelbelow]

Probably because of the tone of the OP and your posting history:

hes going full on troll. unless you have time to waste i would stop.

[Fabbs]

These players also had a tough 1st year meshing with the Big 3.
Brent Barry 2005
Nazr 2005
Frankie Elson 2007

[ohmwrecker]

:flag:
Couldn't find a blue one?

[benefactor]

The second year is a proven theory...there's really no reason to question it. It didn't work with RMJ, but that's all Pop's fault. I guess it could happen with RJ too, but I doubt it because RJ's big paycheck should give him unshakable confidence.

[Cane]

hes going full on troll. unless you have time to waste i would stop.

Hard to tell with a flip-flopper. Dude went from calling Duncan, Manu, Spurs done to toasting TD for showing he's wrong in the end of a single thread. :wow

[benefactor]

Couldn't find a blue one?
We should see if one can be made. That would really come in handy.

But no need for one here. RJ is going to earn every penny of that 40 million in this season alone. The SECOND season.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

At $15M RJ was a disappointment. I said in another thread that at $6M per season he'd be a good pickup for the Spurs. So if RJ's play when he's being paid $15M is bad, and at $6M is considered good, at $10M he must be marginal at best.

So, I'd agree, he is absolutely going to be better than last season. :tu

[DesignatedT]

Hard to tell with a flip-flopper. Dude went from calling Duncan, Manu, Spurs done to toasting TD in the end of a single thread. :wow

its what you call "bandwagon" praise them win they win, trash them win they lose. he even trashed duncan. I don't give a shit if he averages 5 and 5, you just don't trash him.

[ohmwrecker]

We should see if one can be made. That would really come in handy.

But no need for one here. RJ is going to earn every penny of that 40 million in this season alone. The SECOND season.

Well, I admire your unwavering commitment to an incredibly ridiculous premise . . . maybe admire is the wrong word.

[MoSpur]

He should be better. I hope he is.

[DesignatedT]

We should see if one can be made. That would really come in handy.

But no need for one here. RJ is going to earn every penny of that 40 million in this season alone. The SECOND season.

I really want to know how you have that silver medal under your name. I just don't see who would vote for you besides sequ and fabbs.

[Shifty]

I really want to know how you have that silver medal under your name. I just don't see who would vote for you besides sequ and fabbs.

Sequ and fabbs multiple accounts? :lol

[benefactor]

I really want to know how you have that silver medal under your name. I just don't see who would vote for you besides sequ and fabbs.
You act like I'm making things up here. Did you see the contract he signed? Don't you know what having a year under his belt in the Spurs system means?

[benefactor]

Seriously...relax people. RJ has got this.

[rascal]

These players also had a tough 1st year meshing with the Big 3.
Brent Barry 2005
Nazr 2005
Frankie Elson 2007

None of those players were boderline stars like Jefferson was and none got the pay that Jefferson is gettting.

I dont expect a big improvement in Jeffersons play unless pop lets the team run the break more.

[Fabbs]

You act like I'm making things up here. Did you see the contract he signed? Don't you know what having a year under his belt in the Spurs system means?
benefactor you've really got the PollyAnna Poppers going on this thread. :lol

[Galileo]

I agree, RJ will be better. 15 ponts per game and better D.

[GrandeDavid]

I think he'll absolutely be better. As long as he stays healthy you'd think that by default he'll be better. Just having another summer to work out and study and more games to play and assimilate will help him. I'm not the biggest Jefferson fan and was certainly disappointed by his play much of last season, but I don't think the Spurs had many other options this summer.

[benefactor]

We’ll give Jefferson a mulligan, citing a steep first year learning curve in a difficult system.
48MOH ftw.

[CaptainLate]

...I dont expect a big improvement in Jeffersons play unless pop lets the team run the break more.

With the Neal signing, I'm starting to think that is CIA's plan. We still give the impression :sleep our focus is lockdown D. But you can't do that w/o Twin Towers. So unless TS proves otherwise, the Spurs are going uptempo. It will make TP look even better for trade deadline deal.

P.S. TD's style of play will enable him to play into his late 30's -- like the Mailman did -- w/o embarassing himself. I figure he'll get at least trophy # :lobt2: :lobt2: :lobt2: :lobt2: :lobt2:

[timtonymanu]

Mason and Udoka are clear examples of why this theory doesnt work. Then again both were scrubs.

I expect RJ to be more acclimated to the system but tbh, he's not all that bright. Hopefully RJ finds a way for himself to fit in. He doesnt really help in any area of our needs. He's not a spot up shooter. He cant defend. He lacks leadership skills. He lacks clutchness.

[senorglory]

Hate the Spurs roster? Here you go=======> (click (http://www.clublakers.com/))

[ElNono]

Would the fact that he was playing for a contract extension last season and now he just got paid have an impact too?

Discuss.

[Shifty]

From a fanshot at PtR:

http://www.poundingtherock.com/2010/7/22/1581857/clearing-up-a-few-things-up-about

[Obstructed_View]

Would the fact that he was playing for a contract extension last season and now he just got paid have an impact too?

Discuss.

Are you saying that last season was an Erick Dampieresque contract run for him, and that he's going to plummet to earth this coming season like Jerome James strapped to a trash bag?

[ElNono]

Are you saying that last season was an Erick Dampieresque contract run for him, and that he's going to plummet to earth this coming season like Jerome James strapped to a trash bag?

I'm asking you and anybody else who wants to opine if that's a possibility. What do you think?

[Obstructed_View]

I'm asking you and anybody else who wants to opine if that's a possibility. What do you think?

That's so goddamn depressing I don't really want to.

[ElNono]

That's so goddamn depressing I don't really want to.

Well, it's possible that the positive of his familiarity with the system in the second year outdoes the negative impact of complacency after signing a new long term deal.

[benefactor]

Would the fact that he was playing for a contract extension last season and now he just got paid have an impact too?

Discuss.
Not negatively. It does in many cases but in the cases of second year Spurs players who now know the system it is not a factor.

[benefactor]

Well, it's possible that the positive of his familiarity with the system in the second year outdoes the negative impact of complacency after signing a new long term deal.
lol...that's what I get for not refreshing my screen. Great minds. :tu

[benefactor]

OF course he will be! RJ has been working out with Pop all summer long! Truth!

(edit) Hmm, maybe I should have posted this as a blue
Confirmed that RJ worked with Pop too. That combined with the second year basically seals the deal.

:lobt2:

[Leonard Curse]

Sorry but not buying it. Jefferson will be marginally better at best.

Same things were said about Mason, Bonner and other suck ass players.

good point hater

[dbreiden83080]

I think he'll be better. HE's got a lot of talent and with a year to see what is going to be expected of him, i RJ will come around this year..

[dbreiden83080]

Uhhhhh, he's obviously going to be much better..

He's over 30 and relies strictly on athleticism..players like that always get better with age, it's common knowledge..



:lol

Oh come on. He just turned 30. It's not like he's 35. IS there a law that says you are a great athlete at 29 and an old man at 30 or something??

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I understand when it comes to personal decisions how planning for the worst makes sense. When it comes to something that you enjoy that has no bearing on your personal lives I have never been able to understand this type of stuff.

Its been detailed how his contract has no effect on our ability to sign players and Pop has detailed Jefferson has worked on defensive drills specifically to improve his game. It was readily apparent that his lateral quickness was a problem last year and hes doing stuff to try and improve that.

Why spend months being down on people so you can feel vindicated for a few days? I just do not get that.

Being positive is viewed as being stupid and a shortcoming. Koolaid, carebears and all that type of thing. I just do not get that.

If you want to think that about me because I hope and think a player for the team I love will do well then so be it. You go ahead and be miserable.

[Leonard Curse]

you guys act like we signed some amazing star CHILL OUT!!!! look dick jeff averaged nearly 10pts 5rbs 2 assis w/ EFF +11 now if u ask me thats not freaking bad in a spurs system i know its not 14mil good but thats done with and takin care of

to me its not about him getting amazing numbers bruces numbers were shit but he did wonders for this team i think since pop did actually work with dick he has a better understanding of what he specifically needs to be good at, not be out there trying to mimic manu or anything. he needs to play defense first second he needs to drive when hes matched with an inferior defender and 3rd he needs to make open shots theres no excuse for that. overall i think his numbers were good but he was confused out there and was totally freaked out by how complicated the plays were

[Leonard Curse]

I understand when it comes to personal decisions how planning for the worst makes sense. When it comes to something that you enjoy that has no bearing on your personal lives I have never been able to understand this type of stuff.

Its been detailed how his contract has no effect on our ability to sign players and Pop has detailed Jefferson has worked on defensive drills specifically to improve his game. It was readily apparent that his lateral quickness was a problem last year and hes doing stuff to try and improve that.

Why spend months being down on people so you can feel vindicated for a few days? I just do not get that.

Being positive is viewed as being stupid and a shortcoming. Koolaid, carebears and all that type of thing. I just do not get that.

If you want to think that about me because I hope and think a player for the team I love will do well then so be it. You go ahead and be miserable.


this is what i say too!!! whats with all the hate just relax and this year cant be anyworse than last year personally im excited about tiago blair hill anderson it should be crazy fun

[MaNu4Tres]

None of those players were boderline stars like Jefferson was and none got the pay that Jefferson is gettting.

I dont expect a big improvement in Jeffersons play unless pop lets the team run the break more.

You do realize Jefferson is getting paid just 2-3 million dollars more than Barry and Nazr did in their second seasons right?

[LOL@MavsFan]

http://www.delmarscene.com/data/squares/1213218483.jpg:lol Billy W has his back...and yes the pun was intended.

[ohmwrecker]

4XjDjpHpwJY

hSiPK4-GNDg&feature=fvsr

jq5Aw5jW-ZQ


Of course, he will be a year older this season, so I guess that's the end of plays like these.

[ohmwrecker]

This one is the best.

0kTUOjAeQHs&feature=player_embedded

[Man In Black]

It's not like he wasn't clutch at least 1 time:
hEcZ2cukl1g

[benefactor]

Ohmwrecker to the rescue! I knew RJ could count on you...

koJlIGDImiU&ob

[ohmwrecker]

Ohmwrecker to the rescue! I knew RJ could count on you...

koJlIGDImiU&ob

I should have known you would have crappy taste in music.

Isn't there a sale on Ed Hardy gear somewhere that you should be at?

[benefactor]

I should have known you would have crappy taste in music.

Isn't there a sale on Ed Hardy gear somewhere that you should be at?
:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao
http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/3/17/rotflmao128502487880000000.jpg
http://rix0r.nl/imagemacros/lmao-real.jpg
http://www.petsfunky.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/too-funny-lol-cat.JPG
http://thepqnation.com/livingwicked/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/810928-lmao_super.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1048/1237094631_a26c1ae154.jpg
http://funny.brienergy.com/wp-content/uploads/rotfl.jpg
:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[ohmwrecker]

http://www.jmorganmarketing.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/erica-yawn-200305211.jpg

[DeadlyDynasty]

:corn:

[ElNono]

Of course, he will be a year older this season, so I guess that's the end of plays like these.

As long as there's a straight line to the hoop and there's no shot blocker there, he won't have a problem...

[ohmwrecker]

As long as there's a straight line to the hoop and there's no shot blocker there, he won't have a problem...

You are just being contrary. He dunked right on Oden's head in the first and juked Marion and Hansbrough (admittedly, not great defenders) in the other two. I only included one breakaway dunk vid up because I thought that would be the first discrediting comment about the post. Good job weaseling around that!

I had to include the fast break dunk because it had LeBron in it and I am required by the NBA to feature the King of South Beach whenever possible.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

As long as there's a straight line to the hoop and there's no shot blocker there, he won't have a problem...

There was only one fast break in those clips. In the others there were crossovers, defenders and Greg Oden.

Its amazing how being negative is now seen as a virtue.

[DeadlyDynasty]

You are just being contrary. He dunked right on Oden's head in the first and juked Marion and Hansbrough (admittedly, not great defenders) in the other two. I only included one breakaway dunk vid up because I thought that would be the first discrediting comment about the post. Good job weaseling around that!

I had to include the fast break dunk because it had LeBron in it and I am required by the NBA to feature the King of South Beach whenever possible.

:lol

[ElNono]

You are just being contrary. He dunked right on Oden's head in the first and juked Marion and Hansbrough (admittedly, not great defenders) in the other two. I only included one breakaway dunk vid up because I thought that would be the first discrediting comment about the post. Good job weaseling around that!

I had to include the fast break dunk because it had LeBron in it and I am required by the NBA to feature the King of South Beach whenever possible.


There was only one fast break in those clips. In the others there were crossovers, defenders and Greg Oden.

Its amazing how being negative is now seen as a virtue.

Meh. Nothing would make me happier than RJ turning things around. It has nothing to do with negativity. I'm just being realist. Since his knee surgery he simply hasn't been the same player he was in NJ.

To me it has nothing to do with age. It has to do with damaged goods that can't make up for it with superior basketball IQ. Duncan had the same type of surgery and lost a lot of his athleticism the same way, but he's such a smart player, he more than made up for it in other ways.

Ultimately, what I want RJ to do is defend better. I can live with the numbers he put on offense last season. What we can't afford is for him to play the same brand of defense.

[ElNono]

I had to include the fast break dunk because it had LeBron in it and I am required by the NBA to feature the King of South Beach whenever possible.

:lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Meh. Nothing would make me happier than RJ turning things around. It has nothing to do with negativity. I'm just being realist. Since his knee surgery he simply hasn't been the same player he was in NJ.

To me it has nothing to do with age. It has to do with damaged goods that can't make up for it with superior basketball IQ. Duncan had the same type of surgery and lost a lot of his athleticism the same way, but he's such a smart player, he more than made up for it in other ways.

Ultimately, what I want RJ to do is defend better. I can live with the numbers he put on offense last season. What we can't afford is for him to play the same brand of defense.

RJ had knee surgery? I see where he had ankle surgery '07.

[ElNono]

RJ had knee surgery? I see where he had ankle surgery '07.

Sorry, I meant ankle. He did have a knee injury that ended up in that ankle surgery, that's why I got them mixed up. My comment stands though.

He lost a lot of lateral quickness after that.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Sorry, I meant ankle. He did have a knee injury that ended up in that ankle surgery, that's why I got them mixed up. My comment stands though.

He lost a lot of lateral quickness after that.

Tim Duncan had ankle surgery?

[ElNono]

Tim Duncan had ankle surgery?

Tim Duncan had knee surgery and lost quite a bit of athleticism because of it.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Tim Duncan had knee surgery and lost quite a bit of athleticism because of it.

But it was not the same type of surgery. RJ also had his best statistical season the year after that surgery. I just am not buying it.

[ElNono]

But it was not the same type of surgery. RJ also had his best statistical season the year after that surgery. I just am not buying it.

You don't have to buy anything I tell you.

Statistically, his best years overall were 04-05 (regular season) and 05-06 (playoffs), unless you want to restrict stats to PPG. Both before his injury.

He did have his best PPG in 07-08... however, the Nets were already a mediocre team and missed the playoffs that year.

[DeadlyDynasty]

RJ is not a bad player, just an awful fit for SA. Spurs need a perimiter defender and a reliable outside shooter. RJ is neither of those. He's streaky at best from the outside, and what does he offer that either Tony or Manu can't already do? I think RJ would be a decent fit for PHX or DAL b/c they are lacking in dribble penetrators from that position...

[MaNu4Tres]

28ptD_gwn-k&feature=related_embedded

HppqmxT4U1g

[MaNu4Tres]

He seriously will be better this year. I think last summer he had a lot on his plate and didn't focus on basketball. He was traded, he broke up with his girlfriend a week before their wedding, then he had to clear the air on how it went down. According to Pop, RJ worked hard this off-season and maybe he is in better shape.

I believe his all around game will be more consistent and more solid.

Those who only judge him by the amount of points he puts up per game will be disappointed. He won't receive the amount of touches to put up the numbers he did in Milwaukee because of the talent on this team.

Expect 10-12 point per game again this season, but with a more consistent and efficient all around active game.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You don't have to buy anything I tell you.

Statistically, his best years overall were 04-05 (regular season) and 05-06 (playoffs), unless you want to restrict stats to PPG. Both before his injury.

He did have his best PPG in 07-08... however, the Nets were already a mediocre team and missed the playoffs that year.

He shot his worst percentage that year and was only slightly better at rebounding. The reason why that team was not very good was because a stupid front office fired Byron Scott, traded Jason Kidd and signed Vince Carter.

Whoever thought Jefferson and Carter on the same roster was a good idea should be fired again.

Point is that there is no statistical justification or really any other for that matter to saying that the injury seriously effected his play.

[TD 21]

I believe his all around game will be more consistent and more solid.

Those who only judge him by the amount of points he puts up per game will be disappointed. He won't receive the amount of touches to put up the numbers he did in Milwaukee because of the talent on this team.

Expect 10-12 point per game again this season, but with a more consistent and efficient all around active game.

Excellent post.

If for whatever reason(s) this isn't the case next season, then I think it's more than fair to write him off. But at this point, I think it's premature (for reasons that have been stated ad nauseam).

I'm not under any illusion that he's some savior or that he's going to be all world or single-handedly propel this team back into title contention, but he remains a talent that's close enough to his athletic prime that he should still be able to be a solid player. There's seemingly nothing that should prohibit him from being just that next season.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I believe his all around game will be more consistent and more solid.

Those who only judge him by the amount of points he puts up per game will be disappointed. He won't receive the amount of touches to put up the numbers he did in Milwaukee because of the talent on this team.

Expect 10-12 point per game again this season, but with a more consistent and efficient all around active game.

If his 3 point shot returns to career norms, he should get 1 or so more points per game over last year's 12 points.

[duhoh]

TD is the worst PF of all TIME!

[ElNono]

He shot his worst percentage that year and was only slightly better at rebounding. The reason why that team was not very good was because a stupid front office fired Byron Scott, traded Jason Kidd and signed Vince Carter.

Whoever thought Jefferson and Carter on the same roster was a good idea should be fired again.

No argument here on that. I'm in NJ, so I had a first hand look at how all that went down.


Point is that there is no statistical justification or really any other for that matter to saying that the injury seriously effected his play.

Watch the games. There's no statistical substitution for that.
The rub with stats is that they never paint the entire picture. It's easy to pick and choose. IE: I could point out last season was his worst in PER and Winning Shares, and I would be right.

Ultimately, he was one of the stars on bad teams since that injury, so stats can be misleading.

As I said earlier, I'm not concerned with his offense. The Spurs as a team can win with him putting the same numbers as he did last season on offense, or even less. He's just going to have to be a lot better defensively.

Last season his interest in defense seemed to be tied to how involved he was on offense. That's just not going to get it done if you pretend to be a championship team.

[ElNono]

Those who only judge him by the amount of points he puts up per game will be disappointed. He won't receive the amount of touches to put up the numbers he did in Milwaukee because of the talent on this team.

Expect 10-12 point per game again this season, but with a more consistent and efficient all around active game.

I have no problems with those numbers and his overall offense. The only knock would be his tendency to cut instead of staying in the corner for the 3 point shot. But I blame the lack of familiarity with the system for that.

Defensively, however, he's going to have to improve a lot though. And unfortunately he's not a very smart player. So you'll have to excuse me if I'm very skeptic.

As I said earlier, I can't wait for RJ to prove me wrong.

[benefactor]

Defensively, however, he's going to have to improve a lot though. And unfortunately he's not a very smart player.
Exactly. Much like Drew Gooden, he has the tools(sort of, as you mentioned earlier he has lost a step) but just doesn't have the brains to keep it going one direction consistently. He's not quite as dumb as Gooden, but he's not miles ahead of him either.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

No argument here on that. I'm in NJ, so I had a first hand look at how all that went down.



Watch the games. There's no statistical substitution for that.
The rub with stats is that they never paint the entire picture. It's easy to pick and choose. IE: I could point out last season was his worst in PER and Winning Shares, and I would be right.

Ultimately, he was one of the stars on bad teams since that injury, so stats can be misleading.

As I said earlier, I'm not concerned with his offense. The Spurs as a team can win with him putting the same numbers as he did last season on offense, or even less. He's just going to have to be a lot better defensively.

Last season his interest in defense seemed to be tied to how involved he was on offense. That's just not going to get it done if you pretend to be a championship team.

How many games with RJ on the Nets have you actually seen because quite frankly you essentially straight made the 'same injury as Tim Duncan' thing up. I have never heard anything like you are claiming and a close family friend is a big Nets fan.

It goes down to more than points. His shooting percentage remained the same and he still played with Vince Carter and Jason Kidd. I do recall quite a bit of talk of Vince Carter losing it. If you look at the stats for Carter you can see a consistent decline over his years with the Mets.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Exactly. Much like Drew Gooden, he has the tools(sort of, as you mentioned earlier he has lost a step) but just doesn't have the brains to keep it going one direction consistently. He's not quite as dumb as Gooden, but he's not miles ahead of him either.

Drew Gooden did not have the tools to play good NBA defense. He had a big body and a turnaround jumpshot; he was never all that athletic.

[ElNono]

How many games with RJ on the Nets have you actually seen because quite frankly you essentially straight made the 'same injury as Tim Duncan' thing up. I have never heard anything like you are claiming and a close family friend is a big Nets fan.

I don't keep track of how many games I watch. There's just too many.
But tell me, how many games with RJ on the Nets I need to have seen for my opinion to carry any weight? What's the magic number?

And I didn't make up anything. They both did have injuries. I did mix up what RJ's was and admitted it. The point I was making in that post stands though: They both lost part of their abilities in the process (Duncan could barely jump since then, among other problems, while RJ retained his hops but has a terrible time with his first step and moving laterally). The difference is that Duncan could make up for it because he's an incredibly smart player. RJ on the other hands still bases his game purely on his athleticism and jumpshot.


It goes down to more than points. His shooting percentage remained the same and he still played with Vince Carter and Jason Kidd. I do recall quite a bit of talk of Vince Carter losing it. If you look at the stats for Carter you can see a consistent decline over his years with the Mets.

That's interesting because while VC and RJ were together in NJ, they shot basically the same percentages. And RJ actually took more shots than VC in the ill fated 07-08 season. They both shot respectable percentages, but can only muster 34 wins. But again, stats can be misleading. That's why I watch the games.

Have you seen Nets games with RJ pre and post surgery?

[ElNono]

Drew Gooden did not have the tools to play good NBA defense. He had a big body and a turnaround jumpshot; he was never all that athletic.

If you think NBA defense is solely based on athleticism then I have to question if you even watch Spurs games at all. Duncan is probably one of the less athletic bigs in the game yet one of the best defenders in the NBA (or at least was).

[Manufan909]

I was really wish this thread was general and the OP had included Blair.:depressed

On the topic at hand, I do believe RJ will be better, especially if he is involved more in the regular season. The Spurs need to milk the alley oop with him, and make sure that if he's on the floor that two of Manu/Neal/Bonner/Anderson?/Hill are on the floor so he isn't necessary to create spacing. Idk why the Spurs don't force the guards who are not 3pt threats to work as hard as Hill has this summer. He shot 39% and he's trying to improve on that, you'd think TP and RJ (29% and 32% respectively) would follow suit. That could be crucial since my two 1st year Spur sharp shooters might never get into the PO rotation, and Bonner has a history of choking (he did shoot 37% this post season).

[benefactor]

Looks like that work with Pop is already bearing fruit. 8pts and 3 boards in 30 minutes.

lol outscored by Kirk Penney

[ElNono]

It's only October...

[objective]

Looks like that work with Pop is already bearing fruit. 8pts and 3 boards in 30 minutes.


that's consistent with his playoff numbers. so far so good.

[Blackjack]

that's consistent with his playoff numbers. so far so good.

http://media.musictoday.com/store/bands/93/product_medium/MUDD1322.JPG

[DrSteffo]

Basically RJ still sucks. Does he suck harder or with more finesse this year is the question.

[Nathan89]

I hate hearing the bullshit about the system. Rj will do marginally better for know the system. If his confidence is high he will do even better. The problem is he cant do anything on the court.

Can someone please tell me one thing that Rj is good at?????

[ohmwrecker]

I was really wish this thread was general and the OP had included Blair.:depressed

That would not have fit OP's "lol RJ" agenda.

[elec99]

Yeah, 30 min and 2 of 9 is consistent with RJ. It's horrible, but worse when you think he was up against a squad the rockets were testing out too? So basically a B squad and still only 2 of 9. 8 points "might" be acceptable on less attempts and minutes...

[TJastal]

Yeah, 30 min and 2 of 9 is consistent with RJ. It's horrible, but worse when you think he was up against a squad the rockets were testing out too? So basically a B squad and still only 2 of 9. 8 points "might" be acceptable on less attempts and minutes...

+1

I seem to recall a whole slew of 2-9 lines last year from RJ.

Looks like Pop was dying to know how his personal workouts with RJ paid off, playing him 30 minutes (by far the most of anyone).

So far, doesn't look good.

[mingus]

he's played one pre-season game. :lmao

have you ever played basketball before? he revamped his shooting form, which looks A LOT better this year. it's going to take some in-game shooting with it in order to get confidence in it. if 10 games into the season he's still missing, then you can talk.

[yavozerb]

Looks like that work with Pop is already bearing fruit. 8pts and 3 boards in 30 minutes.

lol outscored by Kirk Penney

Seriously, 1 preseason game....So after every bad game for RJ (including preseason) you are gonna have posts like this one. Dude, you better than this.

[ohmwrecker]

Seriously, 1 preseason game....So after every bad game for RJ (including preseason) you are gonna have posts like this one. Dude, you better than this.

Yes. And . . . No, he's not.

[MaNu4Tres]

And . . . No, he's not.

This

[benefactor]

That would not have fit OP's "lol RJ" agenda.
No...it wouldn't fit period. Blair is young with upside...and could be a better player than RJ by the end of the season. Of course he is going to get better his second year because it's only his second year in the league.

I would think this would be pretty obvious.

[DrSteffo]

Im sorry I respect u guys ManNu4Tres and yavozerb, but isn't the truth that RJ still sucks considering how much mone he gets paid? I find it difficult to underrstand how any intelligent person can disagree about this.

[MaNu4Tres]

Im sorry I respect u guys ManNu4Tres and yavozerb, but isn't the truth that RJ still sucks considering how much mone he gets paid? I find it difficult to underrstand how any intelligent person can disagree about this.

RJ does not suck for not playing like a 40 million dollar-1st option one pre-season game.

I know it's already October 7th and I know how it can be to overreact. But the season is young.

I've never said RJ is a great player. I've never said RJ is the perfect fit.

What I have said is that RJ was the best option the Spurs could have realistically attained this past summer. (What I mean by realistically is looking at all the options and having an opinion on how realistically each option is; this was the most realistic/best option in my view. That was my opinion after considering all the "realistic" options.)

I also have said RJ's contract doesn't effect the Spurs from going out and signing a significant free agent the next 2 seasons anyway because the Spurs wouldn't have the significant cash (with or without RJ) to add a quality free agent due to Manu and Tim's contract on the books. And the length of RJ's contract (4 years) isn't that worrisome because of this factor.

I by no means think RJ is great. I just was and am aware of the realistic side of things in my opinion.

I expect RJ to be inconsistent on the offensive end (Limited touches will make this a reality). What I hope for is improvement in his consistency on the other end of the floor. Which is realistic to hope for.

[DrSteffo]

Agreed. Just don't imagine he will become significantly better than last year.

[MaNu4Tres]

Agreed. Just don't imagine he will become significantly better than last year.

Just imagine if Bobby Simmons and James Anderson were the Spurs only options right now at small forward.

Which is most likely the realistic scenario, had the Spurs let RJ walk. (If RJ was really testing FA waters; meaning no prearranged deal was in place.)

Spurs wouldn't have a shot if this was the case. Which would probably lead to a Parker trade in February.

[DrSteffo]

Again I completely agree. They did the right thing. I just want my beloved Spurs to play better.

[DrSteffo]

Guess I will miss Bowen at SF until I die. I donn't like the direction of the Spurs at all and we have no shot at winning a title until we get back to the old good tough D.

[yavozerb]

Im sorry I respect u guys ManNu4Tres and yavozerb, but isn't the truth that RJ still sucks considering how much mone he gets paid? I find it difficult to underrstand how any intelligent person can disagree about this.

If you look around the league at players who earn 7-9 mil per season you will see some good players and equally see some horrible players making this kind of $. Thats because majority of these players were gambles at one time, some good, some not so good. The spurs were not going to sign anyone better at this position than RJ this past offseason and with the philosophy of "win now" still in place a calculated gamble had to be done. We are going to have to wait and see (and hope) that he will grow into his role this season and become SF who can produce in this system. All I was saying is that it was ridiculous to throw RJ under the bus after a preseason game.


RJ does not suck for not playing like a 40 million dollar-1st option one pre-season game.

I know it's already October 7th and I know how it can be to overreact. But the season is young.

I've never said RJ is a great player. I've never said RJ is the perfect fit.

What I have said is that RJ was the best option the Spurs could have realistically attained this past summer. (What I mean by realistically is looking at all the options and having an opinion on how realistically each option is; this was the most realistic/best option in my view. That was my opinion after considering all the "realistic" options.)

I also have said RJ's contract doesn't effect the Spurs from going out and signing a significant free agent the next 2 seasons anyway because the Spurs wouldn't have the significant cash (with or without RJ) to add a quality free agent due to Manu and Tim's contract on the books. And the length of RJ's contract isn't that worrisome because of this factor.

I by no means think RJ is great. I just was and am aware of the realistic side of things in my opinion.

I expect RJ to be inconsistent on the offensive end (Limited touches will make this a reality). What I hope for is improvement in his consistency on the other end of the floor. Which is realistic to hope for.

Agree 100%....

[MaNu4Tres]

If you look around the league at players who earn 7-9 mil per season you will see some good players and equally see some horrible players making this kind of $. Thats because majority of these players were gambles at one time, some good, some not so good. The spurs were not going to sign anyone better at this position than RJ this past offseason and with the philosophy of "win now" still in place a calculated gamble had to be done. We are going to have to wait and see (and hope) that he will grow into his role this season and become SF who can produce in this system. All I was saying is that it was ridiculous to throw RJ under the bus after a preseason game.


.

Agreed...And I want to add to the bold part.

Not only did the Spurs stay with the "win now" philosophy by signing their best and most realistic option, but this prearranged deal saved Holt roughly 25 million dollars. That is huge in the eyes of management.

[DrSteffo]

Again agreed 100%. I dont care about preseason games. He just basically sucks for the money he is paid. It's a fact.

[JustinJDW]

God you guys are such crybaby little bitches.

[MaNu4Tres]

Again agreed 100%. I dont care about preseason games. He just basically sucks for the money he is paid. It's a fact.

So far as a Spur, considering last year and one preseason game this year?

Sucks isn't accurate.

Inconsistent, yes.

Which means some games bad, some games good. Which was good enough to help get passed the Mavs, aided by his good performances games 2 and 4. Was it good enough to get past the Suns? No it wasn't. But it's not his fault, he actually played really well games 2 and 4. The Spurs just didn't have a bench and Suns hit every shot they threw up in the 4th quarters. In my opinion, Spurs' main horses were just too gassed at the end of games (4th quarters) and it effected their defensive and offensive execution (having no bench being the culprit).

Hopefully this upcoming season Splitter, an improved Blair, Anderson and Temple can prevent this from happening again.

[DrSteffo]

Agreed, sucks is too hard, inconsistent ok. I just don't understand how somone can get paid that much and do so little.

[The Truth #6]

How about - not a great competitor, has bad instincts and shaky fundamentals...but is still a good athlete compared to the rest of the team, and he wants to do well but just doesn't know how to fit into this team?

[hater]

RJ is the main reason we were able to sign Tiago. Gotta give him the credit. Him and CIA Pop of course.

RJ has already done his job for the 2010-2011 season.

that being said, he is hurting the team and Spurs should give up on him being a starter material

[angelbelow]

lol everytime i see this thread it reminds of me of what a bitter fuck benefactor is.

[Obstructed_View]

God you guys are such crybaby little bitches.

Boy are you clicking on the wrong shit if you're expecting people on a sports team message board not to be complaining about the team. :lol

[ElNono]

Just imagine if Bobby Simmons and James Anderson were the Spurs only options right now at small forward.

Which is most likely the realistic scenario, had the Spurs let RJ walk. (If RJ was really testing FA waters; meaning no prearranged deal was in place.)

Spurs wouldn't have a shot if this was the case. Which would probably lead to a Parker trade in February.

We don't have a shot with this RJ... So let's hope it was just a glitch and he improves as the pre-season and season goes along...

[ElNono]

RJ is the main reason we were able to sign Tiago.

Myth

[benefactor]

lol everytime i see this thread it reminds of me of what a bitter fuck benefactor is.
I like the term "realist" better.

[ohmwrecker]

http://www.bombgaming.com/games/images/soundboard-ralphwiggum.gif

[yavozerb]

RJ is the main reason we were able to sign Tiago. Gotta give him the credit. Him and CIA Pop of course.

RJ has already done his job for the 2010-2011 season.

that being said, he is hurting the team and Spurs should give up on him being a starter material


Myth

It sure as hell didn't hurt...What you cannot argue against is the spurs saved closed to 8 mil. this season on RJ's new contract. This is a FACT.

[Rito3d30]

all he need is adjustment in the game

even if it doesn't turns out well
at least he tried...

Tmr go kick lebron's ass:downspin:

[benefactor]

It really all comes down to a difference in opinion. Some people(Manu4tres, ohmwrecker, yavozerb, etc.) think that RJ can improve and play better...and that this better play will keep the Spurs in contention. Other people(myself, ElNono, DPG, etc.) think that it was pointless to re-sign RJ because he does nothing to keep the Spurs in contention.

The ultimate proof will be in the pudding. I have never said that I wish bad for the Spurs. TBQH, I hope...by some miracle...that RJ becomes the type of role player that the Spurs need. I don't see that zebra changing it's stripes, no matter what year it is in the system. Hence the thread.

[benefactor]

all he need is adjustment in the game

even if it doesn't turns out well
at least he tried...

Tmr go kick lebron's ass:downspin:
lol 4 years guaranteed for trying.

[objective]

We don't have a shot with this RJ... So let's hope it was just a glitch and he improves as the pre-season and season goes along...

This seems the most likely.

If Anderson and Masterpiece Simmons were the only options . . . so what?

Another playoff performance from Jefferson like last year and like last night's meaningless exhibition guarantees the Spurs have no shot unless the improvements from Hill and Blair and the performance of Splitter make the SF spot's contributions moot.

[mingus]

i don't see why this thread needed to be bumped one pre-season game into the pre-season. it doesn't prove anything, other than the fact the OP couldn't wait ten more games--about the time when you can say with assurance that RJ won't improve-- to suck his own cock.

[Blackjack]

i don't see why this thread needed to be bumped one pre-season game into the pre-season. it doesn't prove anything, other than the fact the OP couldn't wait ten more games--about the time when you can say with assurance that RJ won't improve-- to suck his own cock.

If you're ever find out you're capable of servicing yourself that way you won't last 10 games.

I speak from experience.

[ElNono]

It sure as hell didn't hurt...What you cannot argue against is the spurs saved closed to 8 mil. this season on RJ's new contract. This is a FACT.

No doubt that what they saved this season won't hurt.
That doesn't mean that the investment on that contract long term was a good idea.

[ElNono]

FWIW, I also do think bumping this thread was premature. We'll see how RJ does once the season starts and after a few games... there's really no more excuses then.

[Obstructed_View]

It sure as hell didn't hurt...What you cannot argue against is the spurs saved closed to 8 mil. this season on RJ's new contract. This is a FACT.

So by that logic, when you go to a 50 percent off sale and spend 1000 dollars you come back and tell people that you saved 1000 dollars.

[yavozerb]

So by that logic, when you go to a 50 percent off sale and spend 1000 dollars you come back and tell people that you saved 1000 dollars.

If you want to look at that way you can...Some of you can disagree with this logic if you want but now that its been made public that the spurs are gonna run with 13 players simply for finanacial reasons should highlight the fact, no RJ discount = not as many summer signings (may or may not affected Tiago signing).

[yavozerb]

No doubt that what they saved this season won't hurt.
That doesn't mean that the investment on that contract long term was a good idea.

We will not know long term if his contract was bad until we see how presently RJ will do in his second season. I was simply referring to your "myth" statement about the summer signing of Tiago.

[ElNono]

We will not know long term if his contract was bad until we see how presently RJ will do in his second season. I was simply referring to your "myth" statement about the summer signing of Tiago.

Which you agreed is a myth.
The Tiago situation is not that complicated, I don't think. If the Spurs didn't sign him up this season, when he was eager to come over and he had an accessible buyout, he would have probably signed a bigger, longer contract with any team in Europe. His stock was never this high over there.
I don't think we see Tiago playing next to Duncan if that would have happened.

I still think RJ's contract is unrelated to that. I also think, long-term, RJ's contract is a bad investment, for a number of reasons.

Then again, I hope to be very wrong about this. :toast

[analyzed]

As bad as it sounds, Parkers fate on wheter he will stay in SA is heavily dependent on RJ's play. Let's face it, we are not going far unless RJ plays decent. And if by mid-season (Trade deadline) were not getting anywhere with RJ's play. Expect Parker and FO to mutually agree to call it quits.. it's been a good run while it lasted but it's time to look ahead post " Spurs without parker" . While Tony can look for a long term gig elsewhere.

[benefactor]

FWIW, I also do think bumping this thread was premature. We'll see how RJ does once the season starts and after a few games... there's really no more excuses then.
It was all in good fun. I got the desired reaction from the usual suspects.

:cooldevil

[Obstructed_View]

If you want to look at that way you can...Some of you can disagree with this logic if you want but now that its been made public that the spurs are gonna run with 13 players simply for finanacial reasons should highlight the fact, no RJ discount = not as many summer signings (may or may not affected Tiago signing).

I'm simply not buying that rationale when the Spurs managed to blow 16 million dollars on Matt Bonner.

[The Truth #6]

I think Bonner could have been brought back in theory...but at a much lower cost. Like veteran minimum or slightly above. The Spurs are historically cheap. I see no reason why not to be that way with Bonner considering his performance.

[yavozerb]

I'm simply not buying that rationale when the Spurs managed to blow 16 million dollars on Matt Bonner.

You do realize bonner is getting paid only 3 mil this season right? According to sham sports ( http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/spurs.jsp ) Bonners contract is actually slightly over 13 mil with the last season being unguranteed. Sorry to dissappoint.

[yavozerb]

I think Bonner could have been brought back in theory...but at a much lower cost. Like veteran minimum or slightly above. The Spurs are historically cheap. I see no reason why not to be that way with Bonner considering his performance.

I really do believe Bonner could have gotten a similar contract from another team this offseason. There just are not many bigmen in this league that can shoot the 3pt shot at a 40% clip.

[ElNono]

There just are not many bigmen in this league that can shoot the 3pt shot at a 40% clip.

Especially in the playoffs... :stirpot:

[The Truth #6]

...in the regular season.

[ElNono]

Not to mention that he's a two trick pony (3 point shot during the regular season and +/- regular season champion).
But I digress, if some other team would have offered the same money, the Spurs should have just let him walk. We need help for Tim on the defensive end from the 4/5 position, not a gimmick, IMO.
I would have zero problems with Manu or Hill taking the 3's Matt takes.

[yavozerb]

Not to mention that he's a two trick pony (3 point shot during the regular season and +/- regular season champion).
But I digress, if some other team would have offered the same money, the Spurs should have just let him walk. We need help for Tim on the defensive end from the 4/5 position, not a gimmick, IMO.
I would have zero problems with Manu or Hill taking the 3's Matt takes.

The spurs did sign Tiago, right? Wouldn't this feel the need you are talking about. A big man who can shoot is much harder to find in the NBA, take a look at the contracts of Okur, brad miller, and frye. These guys get killed in the paint but make there money on consistent outside shooting. Bonner is probably a level below these guys, but not by much.

[ElNono]

The spurs did sign Tiago, right? Wouldn't this feel the need you are talking about.

It would if he can perform at an NBA level. That's yet to be seen, and honestly, pretty unlikely for a rookie, IMO. But there's always hope.


A big man who can shoot is much harder to find in the NBA, take a look at the contracts of Okur, brad miller, and frye. These guys get killed in the paint but make there money on consistent outside shooting. Bonner is probably a level below these guys, but not by much.

When any of those three were an integral part of a contender?
They don't play defense, thus they're just as flawed as Matt. Once you put them against good bigs, they get exposed.

The Spurs were probably the last team that won with a big that could shoot (Horry). But Robert was a special player. Unfortunately, at some point we thought Matt could be him and it's obvious he's not.

[ElNono]

And BTW, we're talking role players here. If you tell me guys like Dirk are coveted, I understand. But then we would be comparing apples to oranges.

[ElNono]

I'll add this feels like Deja Vu...
I had pretty much the same conversation with Mel13 before last season started :lol

[angelbelow]

I like the term "realist" better.

Yet pessimist is the appropriate description.

[Leonard Curse]

http://www.bombgaming.com/games/images/soundboard-ralphwiggum.gif
:lmao

[Leonard Curse]

look guys rj did average 12pts and like 5rbs thats not horrible by any means put the damn money argument aside. since rj avrg'd that last season with his summer remolding i dont see how he can get any worse theres just no way that happens!! every game he had tim yelling at him or looking like he was ready to knock rj's ass out because he was lost!

if rj is comfortable with his our system 100 percent by the time our season starts he can only make things better than last year! include a 7fter named tiago theres just no way were going to take a step back this year its just not possible sorry guys

[benefactor]

Yet pessimist is the appropriate description.
As I said, it's a difference of opinion. It's not my problem that all of you decide to get all butthurt because someone doesn't just fall in line and agree that signing RJ was this brilliant idea.

[Obstructed_View]

You do realize bonner is getting paid only 3 mil this season right? According to sham sports ( http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/spurs.jsp ) Bonners contract is actually slightly over 13 mil with the last season being unguranteed. Sorry to dissappoint.

You do realize that it doesn't matter. Splitter was paid less than that. Worst case scenario from RJ's opting out is really that Splitter would get a contract and Bonner wouldn't.

[DPG21920]

Seriously, 1 preseason game....So after every bad game for RJ (including preseason) you are gonna have posts like this one. Dude, you better than this.


Yes. And . . . No, he's not.


This

I don't see yall saying this in Timvp's game thoughts, were he is saying the exact same things :lol

[MaNu4Tres]

I don't see yall saying this in Timvp's game thoughts, were he is saying the exact same things :lol

Paste everything else I said.

[DPG21920]

Of course it is premature to say RJ's second year is a failure at this point. You have to give it time. But all we have to go off of at this point is a bunch or cheerleader talk from Pop and RJ and the handful of practices, scrimmage and game.

Based on what was seen so far, combined with all of last year, acting like there is not a legit concern is just as silly as calling him a bust at the moment.

BTW, I cannot believe people keep trying to use the "RJ allowed the Spurs to sign Tiago" argument. You might be able to argue a few things about RJ's contract, but that is not one of them. Go a different route.

[DPG21920]

^ Not the point and I don't care what you say. The big RJ 3 (Ohm, you and :cry Yazo) bitch when certain people say (obvious) things about RJ at the moment, but you don't when someone else (like Timvp) makes the same observations (although maybe in a more palatable way for the big 3).

Is he a complete bust yet? Not sure. Is what we have seen so far after all the hype positive? No.

[MaNu4Tres]

^ Not the point and I don't care what you say. The big RJ 3 (Ohm, you and :cry Yazo) bitch when certain people say (obvious) things about RJ at the moment, but you don't when someone else (like Timvp) makes the same observations (although maybe in a more palatable way for the big 3).

Is he a complete bust yet? Not sure. Is what we have seen so far after all the hype positive? No.

:lol

How is this bitching...


RJ does not suck for not playing like a 40 million dollar-1st option one pre-season game.

I know it's already October 7th and I know how it can be to overreact. But the season is young.

I've never said RJ is a great player. I've never said RJ is the perfect fit.

What I have said is that RJ was the best option the Spurs could have realistically attained this past summer. (What I mean by realistically is looking at all the options and having an opinion on how realistically each option is; this was the most realistic/best option in my view. That was my opinion after considering all the "realistic" options.)

I also have said RJ's contract doesn't effect the Spurs from going out and signing a significant free agent the next 2 seasons anyway because the Spurs wouldn't have the significant cash (with or without RJ) to add a quality free agent due to Manu and Tim's contract on the books. And the length of RJ's contract (4 years) isn't that worrisome because of this factor.

I by no means think RJ is great. I just was and am aware of the realistic side of things in my opinion.

I expect RJ to be inconsistent on the offensive end (Limited touches will make this a reality). What I hope for is improvement in his consistency on the other end of the floor. Which is realistic to hope for.




Not only did the Spurs stay with the "win now" philosophy by signing their best and most realistic option, but this prearranged deal saved Holt roughly 25 million dollars. That is huge in the eyes of management.



So far as a Spur, considering last year and one preseason game this year?

Sucks isn't accurate.

Inconsistent, yes.

Which means some games bad, some games good. Which was good enough to help get passed the Mavs, aided by his good performances games 2 and 4. Was it good enough to get past the Suns? No it wasn't. But it's not his fault, he actually played really well games 2 and 4. The Spurs just didn't have a bench and Suns hit every shot they threw up in the 4th quarters. In my opinion, Spurs' main horses were just too gassed at the end of games (4th quarters) and it effected their defensive and offensive execution (having no bench being the culprit).

Hopefully this upcoming season Splitter, an improved Blair, Anderson and Temple can prevent this from happening again.

Hey but if it makes you feel better, keep trying to group me with people that bring up completely different reasoning on this issue:toast.

[ohmwrecker]

Do you honestly not see the difference in the posts? Jesus, dude . . . take a couple of days off from the doobage and clear the head.
Making a one game analysis of RJ's (and all other players) performance where there is context is completely different than months of "lol RJ", "lol 40 mil", "lol gay" posts followed by bumping your own stupid thread, telling everyone what they think and that you are, in fact, not a mouth breathing mongoloid, but actually, a devilishly clever genius who has fooled us all.

I'm sorry, but . . . L O fucking L.

[ohmwrecker]

As far as the bitching goes . . . it goes both ways, sweetheart.

[DPG21920]

I bitch about you? I follow almost every single comment on RJ from you? I make RJ observations in RJ applicable threads (games where he is playing, discussion on SF's, his interviews) and you come sprinting in :cry.

I don't call him gay or "lol" him, and I don't bash him for things that aren't there. Many people see what I see, but when myself or someone else makes an argument, you guys cry, but when Timvp does it, you say "ohhhhhhhh, ok".

So the fact Timvp post other thoughts alongside his doubts of RJ make it ok :lol. Because in the game thread, I was commenting on a lot of players as well.

[benefactor]

:cry great fucking small forward :cry

[ohmwrecker]

I bitch about you? I follow almost every single comment on RJ from you? I make RJ observations in RJ applicable threads (games where he is playing, discussion on SF's, his interviews) and you come sprinting in :cry.

I don't "bitch" about you . . . ever. You have a real gift for exaggeration, dude. I was referring to what is interpreted as "bitching" about the topic.


I don't call him gay or "lol" him, and I don't bash him for things that aren't there. Many people see what I see, but when myself or someone else makes an argument, you guys cry, but when Timvp does it, you say "ohhhhhhhh, ok".

I wasn't talking about you there, cowboy. I never "cry". I just disagree. I don't begrudge anyone their opinion, just the method. I've never been a Timvp yes man. That claim is patently ridiculous. I've always thought of our discussions as just that . . . discussions. I don't come back later and say you are bitching and crying. If anything, you obviously seem to have more of a problem with me disagreeing with you than I do with you.


So the fact Timvp post other thoughts alongside his doubts of RJ make it ok :lol. Because in the game thread, I was commenting on a lot of players as well.

No, because it is relevant to a bigger picture and not (I'm not talking about you specifically) peppered with gay jokes, lols and emoticons. I didn't wholly agree with Timvp either, by the way.

And as far as game threads go . . . that is a different animal and I treat it as such. I am very rarely serious in a game thread. If I offended you personally, or upset you by responding to something you said, just let me know and I will stop. I'm not going to call you a crybaby or a bitch.

As far as I am concerned, you and I are cool. If that's wrong, that's OK too.

[ohmwrecker]

:crygreat fucking small forward:cry

I don't get it. Could you elaborate? Ask somebody for help if you need to.

[ElNono]

I don't "bitch" about you . . . ever. You have a real gift for exaggeration, dude.

http://www.bombgaming.com/games/images/soundboard-ralphwiggum.gif

[ohmwrecker]

ElNono, no no no no no . . . you just don't get it, man.


And, really? The Ralph Wiggum pic is bitching? If that is your criteria, you are a little too sensitive.

[Blackjack]

It's crazy that I've become somewhat of an RJ backer or one who sympathizes with the Spurs' decision to re-up him, but crazier things have definitely happened.

I was against the trade from the jump, have stated on multiple occasions he did not fit, and I've also said he couldn't be a legitimate starter on this team if they planned on winning a championship.

I haven't changed my tune or belief.

But, The Spurs were guaranteed to not win a championship this year had he gone elsewhere. Guar-an-teed. The bulk of their MLE would have gone to Splitter and then the Spurs would have been forced with the proposition of signing borderline NBA players and vet minimums to fill out their roster -- in a year they're thinking could be their last with the Big 3.

However small a chance it is that the Spurs could win a championship this year with RJ on the team, there's still a chance. They could conceivably win a title with him being a token starter, bench player or someone who's just not in the starting 5 that finishes the game. There's a chance the Spurs could find a rotation player for their defensive needs on the wing. They could maybe even go smaller and quicker on the perimeter to take away the lane and give up the jumper. There's a chance a player could be attained or a scheme could be devised.

The Spurs promised Tim they'd put together the best team possible when he signed his extension for less. They gave him and the team a chance.

So it's not about RJ being the difference maker anymore or lamenting the re-signing. It's just coming to terms with the reality and hoping for the best.

Now excuse me while I get off this thing . . .

:soapbox:

[ElNono]

ElNono, no no no no no . . . you just don't get it, man.

And, really? The Ralph Wiggum pic is bitching? If that is your criteria, you are a little too sensitive.

Lighten up, Mr Wrecker... :lol

And no, it's not the picture but what I quoted. Think about it for a minute.

This thread has ran it's course a long time ago. Either RJ is going to get better or he won't. And time will tell.

In the meantime, we can keep on wasting time until the season starts.
Please proceed...

[ohmwrecker]

No shit . . . Do I really have to use the fucking blue font?

[ElNono]

No shit . . . Do I really have to use the fucking blue font?

Are you bitching again? :lol

You're cracking me up. :lmao

[ElNono]

It's crazy that I've become somewhat of an RJ backer or one who sympathizes with the Spurs' decision to re-up him, but crazier things have definitely happened.

I was against the trade from the jump, have stated on multiple occasions he did not fit, and I've also said he couldn't be a legitimate starter on this team if they planned on winning a championship.

I haven't changed my tune or belief.

But, The Spurs were guaranteed to not win a championship this year had he gone elsewhere. Guar-an-teed. The bulk of their MLE would have gone to Splitter and then the Spurs would have been forced with the proposition of signing borderline NBA players and vet minimums to fill out their roster -- in a year they're thinking could be their last with the Big 3.

However small a chance it is that the Spurs could win a championship this year with RJ on the team, there's still a chance. They could conceivably win a title with him being a token starter, bench player or someone who's just not in the starting 5 that finishes the game. There's a chance the Spurs could find a rotation player for their defensive needs on the wing. They could maybe even go smaller and quicker on the perimeter to take away the lane and give up the jumper. There's a chance a player could be attained or a scheme could be devised.

The Spurs promised Tim they'd put together the best team possible when he signed his extension for less. They gave him and the team a chance.

So it's not about RJ being the difference maker anymore or lamenting the re-signing. It's just coming to terms with the reality and hoping for the best.

Now excuse me while I get off this thing . . .

:soapbox:

:wakeup

[Blackjack]

No shit . . . Do I really have to use the fucking blue font?

Do you really have to use such fuckin' foul-language?

[Blackjack]

:wakeup

Whatcha' drinkin'? :hat

[ohmwrecker]

"When people disagree with me they are the ones bitching and crying, not me! I use lol and emoticons to illustrate how I am superior and mature. I am right. How dare you disagree with me?! You are the one taking this seriously because I am loling . . . See? See how I lol?!"

[ElNono]

I love the gang here. Even if we're on completely opposite sides of the aisle.
Don't you all fucking forget that... :toast

[ohmwrecker]

Do you really have to use such fuckin' foul-language?

Fucking A right I do.

[ElNono]

Whatcha' drinkin'? :hat

http://www.cariboukcups.com/Content/ProdImages/10-k-cup-caribou-mahogany-alt1.jpg?01AD=3VAP4S-g7mkFs8yhHil_IFy5WBI9hyZdqlCbFN_5LIf-cJWIuDpL-Sw&01RI=1662D14696EC260&01NA=

I don't pull out the whiskey bottle until the season starts... :lol

[benefactor]

I love the gang here. Even if we're on completely opposite sides of the aisle.
Don't you all fucking forget that... :toast
:toast

[ElNono]

"When people disagree with me they are the ones bitching and crying, not me! I use lol and emoticons to illustrate how I am superior and mature. I am right. How dare you disagree with me?! You are the one taking this seriously because I am loling . . . See? See how I lol?!"

I don't know about the mature part, but there's no doubt about the superior part... :lol

[Blackjack]

I love the gang here. Even if we're on completely opposite sides of the aisle.
Don't you all fucking forget that... :toast

:wakeup























:smokin

[ohmwrecker]

:toast

I'm gonna :cry.

[benefactor]

I'm gonna :cry.
lol butthurt

[ElNono]

It could be worse. We could be discussing Jerseylicious.

[Blackjack]

Wake up to The 3 Stooges and then get a thread like this?

Awesome, baby ... with a capital A. :elephant

[ohmwrecker]

lol butthurt

lol :depressed :sleep :lol :toast :wow :hat :wakeup :lmao :ihit :rolleyes:flag::lobt2:

[ElNono]

Wake up to The 3 Stooges and then get a thread like this?

Awesome, baby ... with a capital A. :elephant

What are YOU drinking? :lol

[ohmwrecker]

What are YOU drinking? :lol


:hat

[Blackjack]

What are YOU drinking? :lol

Better question: what am I NOT drinking?


Just for ohm . . .
:depressed:sleep:married::lol:toast:downspin::king :whine:bang:wow:hat:wakeup:lobt2::lmao:flag::lobt: :rollin:nope:ihit:rolleyes:greedy:p::flipoff;) :fishing :wtf :fight


Apparently you're limited to 30 images and not 130. :smokin

[angelbelow]

As I said, it's a difference of opinion. It's not my problem that all of you decide to get all butthurt because someone doesn't just fall in line and agree that signing RJ was this brilliant idea.

What im trying to say is that you appear to butthurt the most. Whats done is done, no need to continue being negative Nancy.

[mingus]

yeah, this Benefactor poster i personally i don't even read his shit half the time because he always has a beef with somebody where appears to be butthurt.

[DPG21920]

OHM, of course we are cool. Same w/ Manu & Yazo. When I call you out on something I am doing like you would when you are talking with a friend and bs'ng around.

BJ: would a trade not have solved that problem? Acting like letting RJ walk would have been suicide bc they would have had no money seems intellectually dishonest. A trade to address needs does not seem far fetched, especially with rumors of guys lime Chandler being available for a pick.

[benefactor]

What im trying to say is that you appear to butthurt the most. Whats done is done, no need to continue being negative Nancy.
You are right...what's done is done. That doesn't make it any less stupid in my mind or the mind of many others on here.

[objective]

It's crazy that I've become somewhat of an RJ backer or one who sympathizes with the Spurs' decision to re-up him, but crazier things have definitely happened.

I was against the trade from the jump, have stated on multiple occasions he did not fit, and I've also said he couldn't be a legitimate starter on this team if they planned on winning a championship.

I haven't changed my tune or belief.

But, The Spurs were guaranteed to not win a championship this year had he gone elsewhere. Guar-an-teed. The bulk of their MLE would have gone to Splitter and then the Spurs would have been forced with the proposition of signing borderline NBA players and vet minimums to fill out their roster -- in a year they're thinking could be their last with the Big 3.

However small a chance it is that the Spurs could win a championship this year with RJ on the team, there's still a chance. They could conceivably win a title with him being a token starter, bench player or someone who's just not in the starting 5 that finishes the game. There's a chance the Spurs could find a rotation player for their defensive needs on the wing. They could maybe even go smaller and quicker on the perimeter to take away the lane and give up the jumper. There's a chance a player could be attained or a scheme could be devised.

The Spurs promised Tim they'd put together the best team possible when he signed his extension for less. They gave him and the team a chance.

So it's not about RJ being the difference maker anymore or lamenting the re-signing. It's just coming to terms with the reality and hoping for the best.

Now excuse me while I get off this thing . . .

:soapbox:

disagree completely.

Why would there be a guarantee that they couldn't win without Jefferson's stellar postseason accomplishments in silver and black. Can't win without his mediocre defense, his lack of three point shooting exploited by the Suns defense (only 1 three in 10 playoff games), his single digit scoring, his 10.9 PER ? His over-30 body being abused by ancient Grant Hill?

Are those things so incredible that Jefferson became bulletproof?

The pain from Jefferson isn't just for this year and the limited options if he was gone.

That pain comes in years ahead. Because Manu's contract goes beyond this season. Splitter's goes beyond this season. Duncan has spoken of playing until the wheels fall off. Blair and Hill go beyond this season. Hell, even the Prince of Plus-Minus goes beyond this season.

By extending Jefferson into the far future, no matter what discount it's at or whatever math hoops people jump through to justify it to themselves ("Oh, it's like getting three extra years at only X-million, it's a bargain!") . . . guarantees the Spurs won't make moves to get better at small forward because of Jefferson's salary.

Because as I see it, Jefferson means no trading for a Wilson Chandler, or a Brandon Rush, or anyone else who could or would be an upgrade because the powers that be won't be willing to spend money on those kind of players because they have so much locked into RJ.

They are now stuck with mediocre, soft playing, delivers less than half the time, isn't used to finish games, declining former star for the rest of the Duncan era and the only way to improve that is to hope that some draft pick or d-leaguer blows everyone away and becomes the talk of the NBA.

[benefactor]

objective...with the goods. :tu

[ElNono]

^^^^ Bravo

[ElNono]

Cue... "but RJ saved me money on Geico!" :lol

[DPG21920]

I have made the argument (although many don't agree) that the Spurs would only be marginally worse without RJ and having (barring any trade) guys like Simmons/Gee/Malik (had he not been let go).

I don't believe not having RJ vs having him does anything for the title hopes. To me, it's the same either way (meaning if RJ has a similar year to last year).

[benefactor]

I have made the argument (although many don't agree) that the Spurs would only be marginally worse without RJ and having (barring any trade) guys like Simmons/Gee/Malik (had he not been let go).

I don't believe not having RJ vs having him does anything for the title hopes. To me, it's the same either way (meaning if RJ has a similar year to last year).
This is where my thought process begins and ends too. It seems to be the main difference between the RJ Fan Club and the rest of us.

[Blackjack]

I completely disagree with "the goods."

First off, they wouldn't have had the talent to win a championship had RJ left. Period. They probably don't have it with RJ. Probably; but they're closer to having it than they would have been.

They're a better team with RJ on it. That's not an endorsement of RJ, it's a reflection of the reality. What trade could be made had he gone elsewhere? There wasn't a sign-and-trade to be made and the only way to bolster their chances at a championship would have been to unload Parker; I'm guessing the odds of getting rid of Parker to improve your team in the short-term -- or great enough in the long-term -- to justify punting away maybe Tim's last year of elite play, aren't all that great.

Secondly, I disagree that RJ's presence prevents the Spurs from doing a Chandler, Rush or similar-type trade. I just don't believe that.

I'm still of the thinking the Spurs allotted a certain amount of money or a ballpark figure for Tim's final years of elite play. Yes, they're going to do everything in their power to not be a taxpayer for the likes of a D-League or borderline NBA player, but I firmly believe they'll pay tax if the right player's there to be had - they're working with $16-17M in savings this year and moving forward Tim's salary should take a decent hit, Parker could very well be gone and the contracts of guy's like Hill and Blair the club can pick up an option or guarantee a pretty modest sum through '12-13.

This is all about Tim. They're doing everything in their power to make sure the last year or two of his career as an elite player don't go without giving themselves an opportunity.

I'm not an RJ fan or part of a fan club. I'm a realist living in the now. Hopefully RJ can become a bench fixture or someone that's not relied upon to star and those games where he does help in the playoffs -- like he did last year -- are looked at as a bonus and not aberrations.

It's one thing to not like RJ, the way he fits, the contract he signed or the fact that he didn't live up to your or overall expectation, but to say the team would be better off without him just comes off as butthurt or ass-whipped.

The Spurs may not have what it takes to get it done and they may not be able to acquire what they need to get it done before all is said and done, but they've done what they could since the initial RJ trade. It was an all-in. There's no looking back or going back now.

But if you've got an alternative or had a way of making this team a contender for the final year or two of Tim as an elite player, I'm all ears. Haven't heard it yet -- and pointing to salary considerations 3 and 4 years from now when they'll likely be ecstatic to make the second round ... it just doesn't fly with me.

Said it before and I'll say it again, chicken salad. The Spurs made chicken salad.

[DPG21920]

Why couldn't the spurs trade for Chandler w/o RJ? That wouldn't require giving up TP. Also saying the spurs wouldn't have the talent for a title w/o RJ is moot. This is not the RJ of old. The talent you speak of, in today's terms, could be duplicated quite easily by another player.

I have also argued that a lesser talent, but better fit would be a net gain and help the spurs title hopes.

[DPG21920]

Saying the team could be better w/o RJ is not far fetched. I have yet to see how RJ's stats, defense and impact could not be replaced by a below average player. RJ in a bubble is not below average, but in his role on this team he is. That is all that matters.

[objective]

I completely disagree with "the goods."

First off, they wouldn't have had the talent to win a championship had RJ left. Period. They probably don't have it with RJ. Probably; but they're closer to having it than they would have been.

They're a better team with RJ on it. That's not an endorsement of RJ, it's a reflection of the reality. What trade could be made had he gone elsewhere? There wasn't a sign-and-trade to be made and the only way to bolster their chances at a championship would have been to unload Parker; I'm guessing the odds of getting rid of Parker to improve your team in the short-term -- or great enough in the long-term -- to justify punting away maybe Tim's last year of elite play, aren't all that great.

How exactly are they better with RJ? What happened in the playoffs that makes them soooo much better? This is the same RJ that Pop declared he would have rid himself of if RJ hadn't meekly accepted performing fundamental drills for Pop after the season was over.


Secondly, I disagree that RJ's presence prevents the Spurs from doing a Chandler, Rush or similar-type trade. I just don't believe that.

You really think that the Spurs would trade for Chandler, who's an RFA after the season's over? And do you think they'd match the MLE and up deal he'd be offered with RJ on the books? History is full of guys like Chandler who got deals MLE and up, and I'll break them out for you if you don't remember any.


I'm not an RJ fan or part of a fan club. I'm a realist living in the now. Hopefully RJ can become a bench fixture or someone that's not relied upon to star and those games where he does help in the playoffs -- like he did last year -- are looked at as a bonus and not aberrations.

So if hope wins out and he becomes a 'bench fixture' who's 'not relied upon', then he is worth all that? That makes the Spurs better? Fine.


It's one thing to not like RJ, the way he fits, the contract he signed or the fact that he didn't live up to your or overall expectation, but to say the team would be better off without him just comes off as butthurt or ass-whipped.

Here comes the bullshit. If I or anyone else doesn't like his mediocre defense, or his soft play, or his bad/invisible 3-point shooting, or his long-term contract, or his near-zero statistical improvement over replacement player (per Hollinger), or all the other reasons RJ doesn't help the Spurs it's because of being butthurt or ass-whipped.

The only pro-RJ arguments you have is that "Oh well, make lemonade out of lemons" and "Gosh, maybe he can be a bench player", and that doesn't exactly lay a solid foundation for slinging your asinine 'ass-whipped' comments.

Let me give you a REAL example of being butthurt. After RJ was re-signed I received an unsolicited PM from a member of the RJ Fan Club bragging to me that the Spurs re-upped him and general 'in your face' nonsense. Someone I never had a single PM message with before and didn't even remember the simple, factual, stat-based posts I made in the numerous RJ threads that would get this person so worked up they fixated upon me.

That's some butthurt.

[Blackjack]

Sorry, it comes across as butthurt. It just does. That person wasn't me who left you the PM, was it?

I'm not condoning or siding with the apologist faction, I'm simply stating the reality: Yes, the Spurs are a better team with RJ on its roster. Him not being on the roster and having lesser players, borderline NBA players starting and backing up the small forward position, is not gonna make you a better team via better fit.

As for a potential trade, it's not limited to Chandler or X player. Yes, if they believe that player is the type to put them over the top, I believe they'll make the trade. I'm actually quite pessimistic about a Parker return, so that's part of my thinking.

I'm not trying to bash any of the people I heard in this thread that aren't happy about RJ and his resigning. From the moment he got here, I've been one of the more vocal critics and skeptics. But there comes a point where it just is what it is and you've got to accept it as such. It is about making lemonade or chicken salad.

I don't believe this team is a Wilson Chandler away from a championship. Like RJ, I think he makes them more talented and better because of that talent, but he's not a "fit" for what they need (even if in different ways and I would like to have him).

So until or unless RJ's presence prevents the Spurs from improving their team and odds for a championship for this year and -- Jebus willing -- next year, I just don't see what's to be so bent out of shape from.

I'm taking a wait-and-see approach and hoping for the best. Logic says the guy should be better in his second year with the team and hopefully a net positive. Hopefully that's the case and we don't witness the guy crawl up into the fetal position -- located just inside the 3-point line.

[objective]

Sorry, it comes across as butthurt. It just does. That person wasn't me who left you the PM, was it?

no, it wasn't you.


I'm not condoning or siding with the apologist faction, I'm simply stating the reality: Yes, the Spurs are a better team with RJ on its roster. Him not being on the roster and having lesser players, borderline NBA players starting and backing up the small forward position, is not gonna make you a better team via better fit.

Except the information at hand, stats, pbp, observations, clearly suggests that RJ is not any better than supposed lesser players or borderline scrubs. That's one of the core issues that RJ defenders, be they accidental optimists like you or the others, fail to address time and time again.


But there comes a point where it just is what it is and you've got to accept it as such. It is about making lemonade or chicken salad.

Who doesn't accept it? Who has declared that reality is but a facade of RJ's mediocre play and refuses to believe that he's a Spur? I accept that RJ is a Spur, just as I accept that Bonner is a Spur. I hope they do well, just as I hope James Anderson is a stud who makes NBA experts write articles about how if Anderson was healthy enough for workouts he would have been a lottery pick or something similar. I hope for all these things. But I also accept the reality that RJ hasn't been very good for the Spurs. I accept the reality that just because RJ dribbles around some cones for a couple of hours a day for a couple of weeks in front of Pop that he will likely disappoint all over again.

That's honest acceptance.


So until or unless RJ's presence prevents the Spurs from improving their team and odds for a championship for this year and -- Jebus willing -- next year, I just don't see what's to be so bent out of shape from.

It's not about being 'bent out of shape'. It's about realizing the likelihood of the consequences of RJ's deal, both with his play and the ramifications of his contract.

Furthermore, about "RJ's presence" and how it prevents the Spurs from improving their odds this year and years after: Is it too much to ask that people consider how RJ's inflated salary will affect the re-signing of Parker? The re-signing/extension of Hill, whose deal will be up before RJ's? Those are issues that are real. Not hypotheticals like a Chandler trade. How will they be able to afford Parker and Hill with RJ making $10 million to hopefully be a bench fixture?

Is that allowed to even be pondered without lectures of butthurtness and ass-whippedness?


I'm taking a wait-and-see approach and hoping for the best. Logic says the guy should be better in his second year with the team and hopefully a net positive. Hopefully that's the case and we don't witness the guy crawl up into the fetal position -- located just inside the 3-point line.

I wouldn't be so confident about the 2nd year thing. Mason was a disaster in his second year. Kurt Thomas wasn't any better. Bonner is Bonner. It seems random. The second year thing off the top of my head seems to apply most to young players still getting better and improving like Hill and Stephen Jackson. Players who maybe not so coincidentally were shackled to the bench in their first year.

A 30 year old RJ getting better is something we all hope for. I just don't feel comfortable in predicting it.

[benefactor]

Sorry Blackjack...you're my boy...but I have to go with objective on this one.

It comes down to what I said earlier...either you believe that RJ will be better an make this team better or you don't. I just can't bring myself to believe he will.

[ohmwrecker]

I didn't see the game, but the stats would indicate that RJ had a good game tonight. I'm not sure I like being lumped in to a RJ "faction" or "apologist" type group. It's kind of condescending and dismissive. I don't really have a good explanation for defending RJ, it just seems like somebody should. I do believe that the talent and potential is there for him to tap into.
I agree with the fact that it comes down to whether or not you believe that RJ can help this team. I'm drunk, but that sounds reasonable.
There is one thing about the whole "not re-signing RJ and make a trade" scenario that I don't get though . . .
What kind of hypothetical trade could the Spurs have realistically made that:
A) would have made the team exponentially better
B) would fall in line with the " all in" strategy
C) would not have left another big, gaping, problematic hole on the roster

I honestly do not see anything the Spurs could have done that is better than what RJ could potentially do in his second year after putting in the effort and willingness to improve.

[Obstructed_View]

I didn't see the game, but the stats would indicate that RJ had a good game tonight. I'm not sure I like being lumped in to a RJ "faction" or "apologist" type group. It's kind of condescending and dismissive. I don't really have a good explanation for defending RJ, it just seems like somebody should. I do believe that the talent and potential is there for him to tap into.
I agree with the fact that it comes down to whether or not you believe that RJ can help this team. I'm drunk, but that sounds reasonable.
There is one thing about the whole "not re-signing RJ and make a trade" scenario that I don't get though . . .
What kind of hypothetical trade could the Spurs have realistically made that:
A) would have made the team exponentially better
B) would fall in line with the " all in" strategy
C) would not have left another big, gaping, problematic hole on the roster

I honestly do not see anything the Spurs could have done that is better than what RJ could potentially do in his second year after putting in the effort and willingness to improve.

A big fat expiring contract would have been a nice trading chip.

[DPG21920]

A big fat expiring contract would have been a nice trading chip.

That is exactly it. People aren't really mad that RJ is back. They are mad that he is back for 4 more years.

All the Spurs did was rob Peter to pay Paul. Unless something with the CBA changes (which seems likely), they are paying the luxury tax next year (they could also pay this year).

RJ could have been kept and been used as a piece to the puzzle (citing the belief he will be better in his 2nd year) or as a trading chip.

The fact he was resigned for so long is the beef. That is the part that does not make sense.

The Spurs could have either kept him for 15M and traded him or kept him if he performed. They could have also let him walk if he opted out (which is extremely unlikely unless there was a pre-arranged deal) and filled the void with someone cheaper and more upside (Chandler), even if that player would not make some quantum leap in the Spurs chances.

[Obstructed_View]

Another detail that seems too often overlooked is that the Spurs paid more money for RJ in total than they otherwise would have, so they threw good money after bad money, have him here for three more years and have no way of getting rid of him if he continues to stink. (an additional reality is that they used all the money they "saved" to give Matt Bonner 16 million bucks)

If he were making 15 million on an expiring contract we could all hope he really improves and helps the team, while knowing that there's a plan B if he doesn't that can help the team immediately by bringing in equal value in players. Now we're all hoping he really improves and helps the team, because if he doesn't, he's a big fat granite block marking the death of the Duncan era title hopes.

[Manufan909]

Another detail that seems too often overlooked is that the Spurs paid more money for RJ in total than they otherwise would have, so they threw good money after bad money, have him here for three more years and have no way of getting rid of him if he continues to stink. (an additional reality is that they used all the money they "saved" to give Matt Bonner 16 million bucks)

If he were making 15 million on an expiring contract we could all hope he really improves and helps the team, while knowing that there's a plan B if he doesn't that can help the team immediately by bringing in equal value in players. Now we're all hoping he really improves and helps the team, because if he doesn't, he's a big fat granite block marking the death of the Duncan era title hopes.

Man that's a great analogy, but VERY DEPRESSING. So depressing I don't even need to add an emo smiley.

[DrSteffo]

I will never see RJ as a big fat granite block, more like empty space or maybe a black hole :) That said I hope he improves and becomes a decent contributor even though inconsistent.

[yavozerb]

That is exactly it. People aren't really mad that RJ is back. They are mad that he is back for 4 more years.

All the Spurs did was rob Peter to pay Paul. Unless something with the CBA changes (which seems likely), they are paying the luxury tax next year (they could also pay this year).

RJ could have been kept and been used as a piece to the puzzle (citing the belief he will be better in his 2nd year) or as a trading chip.

The fact he was resigned for so long is the beef. That is the part that does not make sense.

The Spurs could have either kept him for 15M and traded him or kept him if he performed. They could have also let him walk if he opted out (which is extremely unlikely unless there was a pre-arranged deal) and filled the void with someone cheaper and more upside (Chandler), even if that player would not make some quantum leap in the Spurs chances.

New morning, same old stuff....


Another detail that seems too often overlooked is that the Spurs paid more money for RJ in total than they otherwise would have, so they threw good money after bad money, have him here for three more years and have no way of getting rid of him if he continues to stink. (an additional reality is that they used all the money they "saved" to give Matt Bonner 16 million bucks)

If he were making 15 million on an expiring contract we could all hope he really improves and helps the team, while knowing that there's a plan B if he doesn't that can help the team immediately by bringing in equal value in players. Now we're all hoping he really improves and helps the team, because if he doesn't, he's a big fat granite block marking the death of the Duncan era title hopes.

:rolleyes, you would think after an entire summer and now into october you would get tired of writing about the same subject...oh well

[DPG21920]

New morning, same old stuff....



:rolleyes, you would think after an entire summer and now into october you would get tired of writing about the same subject...oh well

:lol You write about the same stuff as well. If you don't like conversation about RJ in an RJ thread then don't click.

For every post someone makes about RJ, you have one that is :cry.

[Muser]

RJ's shot does look better..let's hope it actually is.

[ohmwrecker]

RJ's shot does look better..let's hope it actually is.

The mechanics of his shot are much improved. If he keeps the form, it is only a matter of time before they start to fall at a consistent clip. There is no more hesitation and his confidence seems strong. He is showing the results of his hard work. It will take a little time for him to put it all together on the court. He has to get into some real game time situations to really test himself, but I think he looks good so far. Pretty much what I expected . . .

I don't think anyone likes the length of the contract, Based on his performance last year, his age and the nature of his game it doesn't make a lot of sense, but you have to appreciate his attitude and willingness to change and adapt his game to become a better fit in this system. Whether you like it or not, it's a done deal. The only reason I support RJ and want him to do well and believe that he can is because, I support the Spurs and want them to do well and believe that they can.

Simple.

No bitching. No crying. No gay:rolleyes.

[yavozerb]

:lol You write about the same stuff as well. If you don't like conversation about RJ in an RJ thread then don't click.

For every post someone makes about RJ, you have one that is :cry.

I didn't realize this thread was strictly about RJ..Correct me if I am wrong but isnt blair, temple, and mcdyess all in there second year as well? Just wondering

[DPG21920]

I didn't realize this thread was strictly about RJ..Correct me if I am wrong but isnt blair, temple, and mcdyess all in there second year as well? Just wondering

Did I say this was "just an RJ thread"? I said this is a thread about RJ (2nd year players).

If you don't want to read about RJ comments, don't click on threads that he is involved in.

[Obstructed_View]

:rolleyes, you would think after an entire summer and now into october you would get tired of writing about the same subject...oh well

Sorry to depress you with the truth. I don't like it any more than you do. If you clicked on a thread with conversations about RJ expecting someone to be blowing sunshine up his ass, wait until you see TPark as the most recent poster.

[Blackjack]

Sorry Blackjack...you're my boy...but I have to go with objective on this one.

It comes down to what I said earlier...either you believe that RJ will be better an make this team better or you don't. I just can't bring myself to believe he will.

Nothing to apologize for. I'm not attacking you or anyone else that happens to share your belief. In fact, most the people in this thread (actually, all) are people I usually associate myself with as a poster and really respect and enjoy. So this isn't something that is personal or has me losing sleep.

To the overreaching point and to the lesser but seemingly provocative (i.e., butthurt), it goes like this.

To the latter, it's not butthurt to not like the contract, the way he fits or to be disappointed with the fact the Spurs are in this position, stuck with a player they should have never traded for. Good trade in value, the logic and rationale weren't terrible, but the player was never going to be what they needed him to be. That's not second-guessing on my part, it's what I've always believed.

Where an element of butthurt comes in is when it gets to extremes. Just like last year when expectations were impossibly high and doomed to never be met, the notion that RJ is somehow a terrible player -- on the level of a RMJ -- is putting expectation and hopes at just about an impossibly low level. There is middle ground.

When you immediately jump to the conclusion that a player of RJ's caliber -- who's still near the prime of his career -- will give you no more than what he did last year, to suggest that that RJ was the best the Spurs could hope for, seems to fly in the face of logic. To suggest his contract will be the end of Parker's tenure or detrimental to the team moving forward and their championship aspirations with Tim, is, again, jumping to conclusion -- who's to say contracts come to terms with before the CBA expires won't be grandfathered in or even become part of an '05-like provision, something along the lines of what happened to Finley in Dallas? I can almost guarantee one or both will happen.

To Parker, I don't believe he's coming back. I don't believe he's a max player and I believe he'll get a max offer. I'm pretty sure the Spurs are aware of that as well. I don't see anything that leads me to believe RJ's contract will prevent them from chasing a championship this year and, maybe, next year (depending on CBA negotiations). Any way you slice it, I see this franchise inevitably turning into the Utah Jazz of the early '00's. I don't see any way around the fact that the Spurs will become a good to mediocre team once Tim's no longer an elite player, Ginobili's 2 years older and whether Parker's here or not. I just don't see a way around it, so I have a hard time being up in arms over RJ's contract.

I do believe RJ will be better in his second year. I don't believe he'll be what people expected, thought or hoped him to be last year, but I do believe he'll be better. I believe he's a decent weapon to have on the bench, even if one they can't always fit on the belt or operate to the best of its ability -- it's not all that terrible to have a player that can get you 20 points and/or 10 rebounds on a given night. When the guy played with Manu, he did pretty well. When he was forced to play without Tim and Tony, the guy looked like he could ball a bit. The guy had a career year the season prior and then followed it up with probably his worst. That doesn't happen without extenuating circumstance. The guy changed teams, had responsibilities and roles completely changed and was asked to do things he couldn't or hasn't done in years. The guy was lost; a second year in this system will definitely benefit him (the extent of which remains to be seen).

As I've written here and elsewhere, the Spurs had a few goals they've been looking to achieve since bowing out to the Mavs in '09: up the talent level, address need and develop the requisite "corporate knowledge."

Unfortunately they didn't upgrade their talent with the best-fitting personnel and because of a closing window they've been forced to make it work because they don't have the time to rebuild on the fly again. RJ has to be a part of that corporate knowledge (apparently, Bonner as well, in their view), since there's no perfect piece to add or the time to make another different but ill-fitted piece work.

I wouldn't have done the initial trade. I would have beat down the doors of GS to get Jackson and then Maggette if that failed (I'd have rather paid $10M per to Maggette to be a 6th Man). But once it became clear RJ's intention was to opt out and the Spurs could either to what they did or replace him with NBA fodder or unprovens, I believe they did the best they could.

If the contract becomes a problem, if his presence prevents the Spurs from making a move to better their team this year or next ... I'll have no problem acknowledging so. But many have already crossed that bridge and we've yet to even get there.

Wait-and-see. It ain't like we won't have enough time to bitch about it if need be. :lol

[Obstructed_View]

I liked the trade, though I was disappointed by it (I thought we'd gotten Al Jefferson). After the way Bowen was underused toward the end, it was nice just getting someone who had the size to play the position and might have a prayer of moving laterally when someone was in front of him.

And I don't think RJ had all that bad a season, at least not from his standards. If you look at his numbers, the only thing preventing him from scoring the way he had was his attempts. That means he's playing about as well as can be expected at his game. What we'd all hoped when he came in was that he could use his abilities when they were needed and maybe decide to use his atheltic ability to concentrate on defense. Too bad he did neither.

It's pretty clear that RJ would never have opted out if there weren't an under-the-table deal for him already in place.

[iminol]

http://macdac.blox.pl/resource/kaczynskizetka.jpg

[benefactor]

Well...he laid his first real egg of the year. He deserves the bump.

lol RJ
lol 40 million

[z0sa]

Tony laid a humongous egg too, in case you missed it.

[benefactor]

Nope...I've already lol'ed him too. See the "ducks" thread.

[lefty]

TP and Bonner will be better in their 2nd year

[widowmaker]

This was Tp not being aggressive.