Should rings determine G.O.A.T?

[BullsDynasty]

Im reposting this from my realgm account so we can have a good discussion on this please no spam:

Whenever topics come up discussing G.O.A.T the rings argument always comes up. Why do rings have to determine the great players. Champions are won by teams and not individuals. Lets be real, if players like Ewing, Barkley, Kidd etc had stacked teams like the Bulls of the 90s or the Lakers of the 00s, you would think they'd have won a title or two.

Lets take a look at Tim Duncan, Im not trying to overrate him or anything but the guy has career averages of 21ppg 11rpg 3apg 2bpg. Those are pretty good stats. However I can get 10 other players in NBA history who's had numbers equal to his or better but they never won titles because they weren't surrounded by talent he had. I would agree though that Duncan had intangibles that those other players didn't have however Would Duncan have won those titles without Parker or Ginobili? Would Jordan have won those titles without Pippen or Rodman? How about Shaq without Kobe or vice versa? Although we may never know the mere fact that we can ask these type of questions tells us that there is something wrong with using rings as the the main factor in determining greatness.

If we use stats and individual accomplishments such as All NBA team, All defensive teams, Defensive player of the year award, scoring titles, rebounding titles, etc. It gives us a better idea of greatness.
I'll give you an hypothetical example:

Player A has won 8 straight championships with career averages of 21 ppg 11rpg 3apg 2bpg. He is surrounded by really really good players a few possibly might get in the hall of fame, however Player A is the best out of them all. Because of his rings he is regarded by "today's standards" as the greatest power forward of all time. Now lets say another player (we'll call Player B) existed and has career averages of 50ppg 20rpg 10apg 10bpg but he has never made it out of the first round because he has had a team equivalent to the the 2010 New Jersey Nets. A bad team with a bad GM who fails to surround him with good solid players. As a result he has never got out of the first round and therefore isn't regarded as one of the greatest of all time despite his stats.

Now lets say the NBA all of a sudden decided to strip every team of all their players and put them in a draft like pool and allow each team to pick one at a time until every single player was picked. The team with the first pick who would they pick? Player A or Player B? Afterall player A is regarded as the greatest power forward of all time and Player B has never made it out of the first round? You would be a fool to pick player A over player B. Without a doubt the team with the first pick will chose the guy putting up steroid stats. So that would refute player B as being the greatest of all time other wise he would have been chosen first.

I just think theres more to being a great player than the number of rings you have. Its all about stats. When you compare 2 players you have to put them in an even playing field (ex: stats vs stats, accomplishments vs accomplishments etc) Not rings vs rings because there are variables that cant be accounted for such as one player with a stacked team and another with a mediocre team.

We all have seen players suddenly get respect after going to good teams even though they haven't played better at all. They just went to a better team. That is just ridiculous. Kevin Garnett didn't become better when he joined the Celtics, but because he won a ring there he's a better basketball player than he was before? That logic is absurd. Is it Patrick Ewing's fault that John Starks just failed miserably in that game 7 going 0-17? If you're going to rank them, rank them based on basketball players and not based on their team achievements.

[Xevious]

Nonsense.

Horry > Jordan

[BullsDynasty]

Nonsense.

Horry > Jordan

That is the most flawed argument out there. Horry wasn't the leader or even the best player on any of the teams he's won a championship with.

[monosylab1k]

Im reposting this from my realgm account so we can have a good discussion

:lmao in other words you stole it from someone there, right Tacker?

lol plagiarism

[dimsah]

Since this is all hypothetical, what do you think Duncan's stats would look like if he was on a bad team that had no other options?

[BullsDynasty]

:lmao in other words you stole it from someone there, right Tacker?

lol plagiarism

How about you send me a PM to Bullsfan88 dumbass.

[BullsDynasty]

Since this is all hypothetical, what do you think Duncan's stats would look like if he was on a bad team that had no other options?

Most likely he would have still put up his normal numbers.

[Muser]

Most likely he would have still put up his normal numbers.

The OP made me think you're retarded, this post sealed the deal.

[BullsDynasty]

The OP made me think you're retarded, this post sealed the deal.

When I say normal numbers Im talking about putting up his normal career averages? Why you really think he would have posted steroid numbers? Again youre missing the whole point. Im not in no way trying to overrated Duncan. I still think he is great. The whole point is about using rings to determine greatness I just used Duncan in an example.

[Muser]

If Duncan was on a shitty team like the T-Wolves he'd average more than 20 points.

[Muser]

And no rings do not = Greatness. Adam Morrison > Karl Malone?

[BullsDynasty]

And no rings do not = Greatness. Adam Morrison > Karl Malone?

:tu Thats my point.

[Muser]

Oh, I misunderstood. My bad.

[Giuseppe]

This ruminating/obsessing over Bryant and those 4 rin, I mean 5 rings is just adorable.

[scanry]

What's your point Tacker. We know that you think Duncan is overrated, so what exactly are you trying to convey Ashraf?

Jordan is the GOAT because he has 6 Finals MVP's along with his other credentials, but imo a player (among winners atleast) should be judged by their Finals performance. That is another reason why Shaq will probably go down as a better player than Kobe in NBA history. And oh he put up 37/15/3 along the way in that 3 peat. :wow Those numbers will never be matched by another player on the Finals stage.

BTW Pop's system will never allow a player to post 30ppg in a series. I think the closet a player came to posting 30ppg was Duncan and the Lakers annihilated them in 2001 & 2002. Duncan did return the favor in 2003 though. Doc River's coaching style will also not allow a player avg 30ppg and the speed of the tempo is another reason why it's not possible. Phil's on the other hand is a lot more up temp and the triangle has always benefited Big Men down low and SG's.

[Giuseppe]

Jordan is the GOAT because he has 6 Finals MVP's along with his other credentials

Scan, huffin' & puffin' blurts!

[scanry]

This ruminating/obsessing over Bryant and those 4 rin, I mean 5 rings is just adorable.

You mean those 2 rings, oh sorry you're tagging the 3 Shaq piggybacked Kobe to.

BTW Cul, are you excited to go to battle against the San Anton Heats this coming season?

[Giuseppe]

You mean those 2 rings

Scan, catchin' his breath blurts.

[MiamiHeat]

RealGM is a shitty website.

abusive moderators

[scanry]

Scan, huffin' & puffin' blurts!

Hey that's how i see greatness and i bet Jordan cherishes his 6 Bill Russell's the most...

BTW i'm glad we don't have Walter Brown anywhere on that Championship trophy.

[scanry]

RealGM is a shitty website.

abusive moderators

Why, did you get banned? :lol

[JamStone]

Rarely do people use only rings to argue who the GOAT is.

Otherwise, Bill Russell would always be first, Jordan second (if you talk about "best player" on championship teams). But quite often, Wilt Chamberlain are ahead of guys like Magic and Bird, who have more championships than Wilt.

And you use extremes to make a point, but misconstrue and misrepresent how people would really evaluate those extremes. If there was a player that averaged 50/20/10/10 and didn't win any rings, he would still be considered one of the greatest of all time even if he never got out of the first round. He'd very likely be viewed as a top 5 player all time.

[ffadicted]

So let me get this straight, you honestly think that Duncan couldn't have won in '99 and '03 without Ginobili and Parker playing great basketball? Tell me what's wrong with that argument.

And lol @ listing Wilt's numbers for any sort of argument, what a joke.

[BullsDynasty]

So let me get this straight, you honestly think that Duncan couldn't have won in '99 and '03 without Ginobili and Parker playing great basketball? Tell me what's wrong with that argument.

And lol @ listing Wilt's numbers for any sort of argument, what a joke.

:rollin:rollin:rollin I knew I should have used another example instead of Duncan. This thread just turned into a Duncan thread and thats not my point. Im just arguing that rings shouldn't be a factor in determining G.O.A.Ts

[Killakobe81]

Scoring titles titles, popularity contests and political MVP and ALL NBA votes are a much better way to determine greatness.

Yes, (i think) is dumb enough to use rings alone.

But if Mj just had 2 (for example) I would NOT give him the edge over Magic or Kareem but being only 1 less from Bird I could still give him the edge.

The reason why I can give MJ the nod over Russell because I think his 6 are close enough, his stats are great AND he came through in the playoffs and Finals.

THAT is why MJ is the GOAT

I think you need to win at least 2 to get in the conversation of the greatest players ...

YOu need at least 4 to be in GOAT conversation ...

I know there are greats that have not one, 2 or 4 but IMHO without rings to validate your greatness ...in the big scheme of things you aint shit ...

The BEST of the best win titles ...

[Killakobe81]

:rollin:rollin:rollin I knew I should have used another example instead of Duncan. This thread just turned into a Duncan thread and thats not my point. Im just arguing that rings shouldn't be a factor in determining G.O.A.Ts

YES, it should be the number one factor, stats and ALL NBA honors should be 2nd and 3rd ...

[ffadicted]

:rollin:rollin:rollin I knew I should have used another example instead of Duncan. This thread just turned into a Duncan thread and thats not my point. Im just arguing that rings shouldn't be a factor in determining G.O.A.Ts

lol fine, I digress

IMO, rings SHOULD be used to determine GOAT. This game is about winning, how can you be considered the greatest if you've never won? And I mean winning being the man, or at least 1b (so none of that bob horry shit). End of story, like, I don't understand how people don't see this.

It's a sport, there is winning, and there's losing. Winners are remembered, losers are forgotten.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

:rollin:rollin:rollin I knew I should have used another example instead of Duncan. This thread just turned into a Duncan thread and thats not my point. Im just arguing that rings shouldn't be a factor in determining G.O.A.Ts

No shit Duncan isn't the GOAT. Bad choice of analogy.

[Giuseppe]

Christ, if there was any actual footage of MJ those 2 years in Washington in existence we could give him a red ass over it, but, there ain't.

It's like it never happened.

[dallasmavsnfuego214]

It's tough typing on here while I'm tying up my 12 year old boys at the same time

[Goran Dragic]

No, they shouldn't. Rings are a team accomplishment, team accomplishments shouldn't measure how good a player is individually.

[Giuseppe]

.

Heat doin' ya like that. And you lettin' 'em.

ha, ha.

[Veterinarian]

It's tough typing on here while I'm tying up my 12 year old boys at the same time

:lmao

[Giuseppe]

^ I still got it, Vet!

[dallasmavsnfuego214]

Hey if they're old enough to pee, they're old enough for me

[Giuseppe]

.

O & Forever!

ha, ha.

[bandwagon_fan]

It's the only thing that matters to be honest. No rings=joke of a team and not deserving to be watched. Only stick to watching championship teams is the way to go. ;)

[BUMP]

Heat doin' ya like that. And you lettin' 'em.

ha, ha.


^ I still got it, Vet!


O & Forever!

ha, ha.

Cubby once again with some great basketball takes :tu

[Veterinarian]

Cubby once again with some great basketball takes :tu

Crucify em BUMP, tie that 57 year old sandbox loitering around ass to the tree of woe!

[Biggems]

GOAT should be a combination of

1. Being the #1 guy on your team
2. HOF stats
3. Championships

IMO, you need to meet all 3 criteria in order to be involved an any GOAT discussion.

As far as I am concerned Russell, Jabbar, and Jordan are the top 3 in consideration for the GOAT in NBA history.

[Booharv]

Of course there is. MJ said he wouldn't give up 81 to Kobe, but he sure as hell didn't mind giving up 42 in a half.


Jordan didn't guard Kobe once in that video. Not once. Plus Jordan was 40. Massive, Epic uber-fail.

[HarlemHeat37]

Sadly, rings have gotten overrated when it comes to ranking players, and it's pretty much directly attributed to the media/Al-Quobe..

When Kobe wasn't winning, winning was irrelevant in these discussions..I'm not making this up, if anybody was on internet message boards or just following basketball in general around 2006 and 2007, you would know that winning wasn't everything..

Now that Kobe has won some rings in the post-Gasol era, they're starting to bring his name up in comparisons vs. Magic and Jordan, citing rings as pretty much the only reason..it's not a valid argument, but it will certainly continue to be a primary argument by the media and Al-Quobe..

[Giuseppe]

Crucify em BUMP, tie that 57 year old sandbox loitering around ass to the tree of woe!

It "Conan" was on last night.

muhahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Josepatches_]

Since this is all hypothetical, what do you think Duncan's stats would look like if he was on a bad team that had no other options?

Touché

Fail thread

[PM5K]

What a stupid fucking post. A player with 10 rings wouldn't ever be considered better than a player that averaged a quadruple fucking double. You got too aggressive with your argument and made it fucking retarded.

[lotr1trekkie]

Tim is great. He's not the question.

Perspective requires the ability to look back at how dominant other players were with their contemporaries.

Ruth is the GOAT because of how far he excelled his opponents. If Wilt were playing today he would still be a beast. In boxing I offer up Salvador Sanchez as an example. The guy was a destroyer and died at 22. If he had lived he would be talking about Sanchez/ Duran or Sanchez/Leonard as fights of the century.
If a Tim Duncan actually existed in the 60's and played for the Lakers, the Celtics playoff run wouldn't exist. Duncan's greatnest is founded on the fact that he makes any team greater than they were.

Imagine MJ with Tim but no Pippin!!!

[midnightpulp]

I'll beg to differ, HarlemHo. When Kobe was torching the league during the years you posted, the entire world of basketball came up with this theory that you have to be the best player on the best team to win an MVP. You all created this theory that it had nothing to do with the best numbers, or the best player, but the award must go to the best player on the best team. Also, Kobe will retire with more points scored than Magic, Bird, and MJ.:wow

Shooting 45% isn't exactly "torching," imho.

[midnightpulp]

It is when you taking the high degree difficult shots that Kobe was taking. Would you like for me to start a thread giving examples?

So you can pick and choose highlights taken totally out of context? How would that prove anything?

Does the excuse making for Kobe ever end?

[Zelophehad]

It is when you taking the high degree difficult shots that Kobe was taking. Would you like for me to start a thread giving examples?

You mean when he was gunning up 18 foot fadeaways with 21 showing on the shot clock?

[midnightpulp]

You mean when he was gunning up 18 foot fadeaways with 21 showing on the shot clock?

"But, but, but he had to take those shots because he was playing with Smush Parker and Kwame Brown!"

[MavDynasty]

Lakaluva is just talking out of his ass. He hardly knew the NBA existed prior to February 1st, 2008. Just look at his join date.

Whaddup fam

[midnightpulp]

What you got on the Lakers 3-peating?

Very good chance.

After game 7 of the Finals when Pau put up 19 and 18, leading his team to victory, I can never doubt the Lakers again.

As long as Pau stays healthy, the Lakers aren't going anywhere.

[Goran Dragic]

I'll beg to differ, HarlemHo. When Kobe was torching the league during the years you posted, the entire world of basketball came up with this theory that you have to be the best player on the best team to win an MVP. You all created this theory that it had nothing to do with the best numbers, or the best player, but the award must go to the best player on the best team. Also, Kobe will retire with more points scored than Magic, Bird, and MJ.:wow

You all came up with the theory? When was the last time the MVP award went to someone on a sub 50 win team? MVP has always been somewhere in between best player on best team and best player in general. It's never been one or the other. In 2007 when Kobe put up slightly better numbers than Dirk but Dirk was on the best regular season team, he won MVP. In 2008 Lebron put up slightly better numbers than Kobe but since Kobe was on a way better, top 3 team, he won MVP. It goes both ways.

[midnightpulp]

You all came up with the theory? When was the last time the MVP award went to someone on a sub 50 win team? MVP has always been somewhere in between best player on best team and best player in general. It's never been one or the other. In 2007 when Kobe put up slightly better numbers than Dirk but Dirk was on the best regular season team, he won MVP. In 2008 Lebron put up slightly better numbers than Kobe but since Kobe was on a way better, top 3 team, he won MVP. It goes both ways.

And for my money, 2007 regular season Dirk was a better player than Kobe Bryant, as was 2005 Nash.

Kobe was a beast in '06 and the league's best player that year. I can't dispute that. But he didn't get ripped off of "multiple MVPs" like Kobe fantards claim, thinking he should've won 4 straight MVPs from 05 to 08.

[Booharv]

And for my money, 2007 regular season Dirk was a better player than Kobe Bryant, as was 2005 Nash.

Kobe was a beast in '06 and the league's best player that year. I can't dispute that. But he didn't get ripped off of "multiple MVPs" like Kobe fantards claim, thinking he should've won 4 straight MVPs from 05 to 08.

This is true, plus every dedicated fan knows Kobe's advanced stats have always been extremely underwhelming. He's never led the league in any advanced statistic except for usage rate in 06. The idea that he got robbed really doesn't exist outside of LA County. At least not like the widely acknowledged belief that Jordan got robbed in 93 and 97 and perhaps even that Shaq got robbed in 01.

[midnightpulp]

Son, you better act like you talking to an authority on this here sport.

1988 Bulls: (47-35) 32.5ppg

2006 Lakers: (45-37) Kobe: 35.4ppg

Both players played on scrub teams that had no chance of winning a title. Both players were hands down the best player in the league those year.

But what about his other stats? Why are you so preoccupied with PPG?

In 2006, Dirk bested Kobe in every stat but PPG and steals, leading the league in PER.

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol cherry picking stats..

Even ignoring advanced stats, what about Jordan's 8 rebounds and 8 assists per game?..54% shooting?..3 steals and 1 block a game?..

[Goran Dragic]

Son, you better act like you talking to an authority on this here sport.

1988 Bulls: (47-35) 32.5ppg

2006 Lakers: (45-37) Kobe: 35.4ppg

Both players played on scrub teams that had no chance of winning a title. Both players were hands down the best player in the league those year.

The 1988 Bulls won 50 games

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1988.html

try again

[Booharv]

Jordan averaged 32, 8, and 8 plus was defensive player of the year with insane block and steal number that embarrass Kobe's career bests. Really stop shaming Kobe by comparing him to Jordan people. It's not fair to him.

[Booharv]

:lol cherry picking stats..

Even ignoring advanced stats, what about Jordan's 8 rebounds and 8 assists per game?..54% shooting?..3 steals and 1 block a game?..

Damn, beat me to it.

[Zelophehad]

Kobe's better at jacking up 3's than Jordan that's about it.

[Goran Dragic]

Plus in 1988 the Bulls won 50 games and MJ actually averaged 35 PPG (not 32.5) while shooting 53.5% from the field. I have no idea what luva is talking about.

[Goran Dragic]

Just like a fucking jew. You can't help it, can you.


:lmao you were so excited because you thought you found an example that made my post sound retarded. You must be disappointed.

[midnightpulp]

Listen, man, you internet nerds can debate PER all you want, I've already showed you it's flaws. According to Bird, Kobe should have 3-4 MVP's.

No you haven't.

All it does is combine everything that can be measured statistically, adjusts those numbers for pace, and comes out with a number.

It is biased against assists, but as DoK explored in his thread, assists might be overrated anyhow. Even many authorities have called it the most overrated stat in basketball.

[BUMP]

Plus in 1988 the Bulls won 50 games and MJ actually averaged 35 PPG (not 32.5) while shooting 53.5% from the field. I have no idea what luva is talking about.

:rollin

[Booharv]

Listen, man, you internet nerds can debate PER all you want, I've already showed you it's flaws. According to Bird, Kobe should have 3-4 MVP's.

It's not Just PER its every advanced statistic. Even ones that aren't in any way complicated like Rebound rate (the percentage of available rebounds you grab), Assist ratio (your rate of assists per possession), block ratio, steal ratio etc. We've been through this already and established you had no intelligent comebacks for these facts:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156993

[HarlemHeat37]

This is not a debate about Kobe and MJ. I only used the MJ to show that a great player on a scrub team can win an MVP.

And ignoring the 50 win part, I'm showing you that Jordan's season was historic, which would allow him to win an MVP, even with a team that wasn't as good..it wasn't just the points, it was the efficiency, the defense, the all-around game..

Kobe had a historic scoring season from a point total standpoint, but the rest of his game wasn't great enough to make it some historical season that would make it an outrage that he didn't win MVP over Nash or Nowitzki..

[midnightpulp]

:rollin

Luva getting shit on, as usual.

Gonna be fun to see him try to dig his way out of this one.

[Goran Dragic]

This is not a debate about Kobe and MJ. I only used the MJ to show that a great player on a scrub team can win an MVP.

MJ didn't win MVP in 1989 (the year you were talking about). He never won MVP on a sub 50 win team.

[barbacoataco]

My takes-
1. Championships is one factor that help determines greatness.
2. Basketball stats are also a factor, but you kave to keep in mind that those stats are ALSO influenced by the teams you play on. A great player on a crappy team will have "better" stats than a great player on a great team. Also, having a great PG setting you up will help your stats. These are just a couple of examples.
3. MJ was much better than Kobe, and anyone who doesn't agree is a younger fan who didn't see MJ play in his prime. Also, MJ has great stats and I'm not sure how someone could disagree.
4. I do think it is true that some players like Barkley, Ewing, Malone are unfairly downgraded because they didn't rings as the top player on a team. The problem is that some years it is much easier to win a ring. Also, supporting cast is a big factor.
5. Duncan who have had "better" stats, in the sense of higher PPG, RPG etc. if he played on a bad team. But he wouldn't have 4 rings.

[MavDynasty]

lol dumbass pigger

[Stinky Paki]

Greg Oden is better than Dirk, and Amare. His PER says so.

I like watching you get bent over by the entire NBA Forum.

Lets be friends :elephant

[Goran Dragic]

Your post does sound retarded.
Almost as retarded as saying MJ won MVP on a 47 win team.

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't necessarily look at a guy like Karl Malone and bring him down because he doesn't have rings..if he had performed consistently well in the playoffs, it wouldn't be a big deal IMO..I look at the fact that he had a lot of choke jobs in the playoffs and didn't consistently step up, not the fact that he doesn't have rings(although obviously the choke jobs are directly tied to that to an extent)..

I do find that guys like Malone, Robinson and Ewing are underrated due to their lack of hardware(Robinson as a #1), but they did have their fair share of choke jobs..



Also, PER is obviously a flawed stat, anybody that uses it as their primary argument doesn't know what they're doing..it's good to throw in though, but it's basically just a box score summary with a slight twist anyways..

Every stat can be used if you're combining them in an argument, not using 1 individual stat as a primary argument though..

[Zelophehad]

Really, Kobe has 1 MVP and maybe should have 2. Jordan should have 7 MVP's; he was robbed in 93, we all know that and he was assraped in 97. How does the universally recognized best player in the world lead the league in scoring and lead a team to 69 fucking wins and not get MVP? It's unfathomable.

[Goran Dragic]

Greg Oden is better than Dirk, and Amare. His PER says so.

I never said anything about PER. There's no singular criteria or stat that dictates MVP is what I was getting at. It's a combination of individual performance (measured by several stats), how good/ad your team is, and how good/bad the supporting cast on your team is.

[HarlemHeat37]

He still was the best player in the league, hands down. And the Bulls only won 47 games in the 88-89 season.

I know, I said "ignoring the 50 win part", meaning, even if Jordan had won that year, he would have deserved it from an individual standpoint(without looking at the other candidates, since I didn't look it up)..

I brought up that season because I only looked at the 32.5 PPG that you mentioned, so I thought he won MVP that year..your stupidity;)..

I would agree that Kobe was the best regular season player in the NBA that year, maybe best player overall..I could argue for Wade though, after what he did in the Finals that year..

[Veterinarian]

Greg Oden is better than Dirk, and Amare. His PER says so.


It's not Just PER its every advanced statistic. Even ones that aren't in any way complicated like Rebound rate (the percentage of available rebounds you grab), Assist ratio (your rate of assists per possession), block ratio, steal ratio etc. We've been through this already and established you had no intelligent comebacks for these facts:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156993

lmao at complete nobodies on this forum regulating luva, what a fall from grace from his Black All American days.

[midnightpulp]

Greg Oden is better than Dirk, and Amare. His PER says so.

Greg Oden is a bad example since he played a limited amount of games. And these days, Amare is closer to being Dirk's equal than in years past. But Dirk's career PER is still 2 points higher overall, so try again.

[HarlemHeat37]

You're ignoring what DOK already brought up, which is that Kobe benefited from the same criteria in his 2008 MVP season..

[Veterinarian]

This is another perfect example of the theory that you all created (the MVP should go to the best player on the best team) is full of shit. Malone was never the best player in the league, and never even had the best team, but when it came to Kobe, this was always the standard you all put before him.

What are you trying to say retard? Jordan was the best player in the league, led it in scoring, and led his team to 69 wins and he didn't win, that's way more of a gripe than throwing up a bunch of points on a shit team and not winning.

[Veterinarian]

On a totally unrelated not is Pakistani rap any good? I can't figure it out tbh:

o_Ncaih2wIo

lol piggers

[barbacoataco]

The MVP award in the NBA is often a retarded choice. Nash won B2B and was not even a top 5 all around player, nor did his team even make it to the championship. Players like MJ, Shaq, Duncan and Kobe were the best players of their time, but often the award went to someone else.

[BUMP]

. Which is why I never mention MVP's, stats, titles, or any awards when comparing players.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao:lmao:lmao

There's countless times where you've done this Paki, give me a sec and let me look them all up

[midnightpulp]

Ok, Chris Bosh is a better player than Tim Duncan. Prove me wrong.

You're strawmanning me somewhat. I never stated that PER should be the deciding factor when trying to determine who the better player is. PER doesn't and can't measure defense (outside of blocks and steals), which is a big part of the equation when comparing two players.

I use PER as a counter when you start arbitrarily throwing around PPG and PPG only in player comparisons, as you do ad nauseum when you compare Karl Malone to Tim Duncan, or Kobe to another given player. Why do you revere this stat so much but neglect other stats?

As for your question, Bosh is probably the slightly better player these days, all things considered, at least in the regular season.

[Booharv]

It's not Just PER its every advanced statistic. Even ones that aren't in any way complicated like Rebound rate (the percentage of available rebounds you grab), Assist ratio (your rate of assists per possession), block ratio, steal ratio etc. We've been through this already and established you had no intelligent comebacks for these facts:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156993

[Goran Dragic]

Which is why I never mention MVP's, stats, titles, or any awards when comparing players.



Actually, Kobe is the only person with a Bill Russell. Two to be exact.

[midnightpulp]

He sure did. Which is why I never mention MVP's, stats, titles, or any awards when comparing players. If you recognize talent, and have a thorough understanding of the game, you don't waste time with PER and all this other BS. No matter how you look at it, inferior players will always come out on top when you use Hollinger's system.

Then why does Jordan have the all-time highest PER?

And of course the "watch the game" argument holds merit. If you "watch the game," you'd know Tim Duncan is a better player than Karl Malone, but regarding that comparison, you always bring Malone's PPG into the discussion when it's convenient, then at the same time, dismiss any statistical counterarguments, like PER.

[HarlemHeat37]

Career PER is the most flawed way to use that stat IMO..individual rankings in PER are the best way to use it, and you also have to understand that there are certain aspects of the game that PER underrates(defense and assists, for instance) and other aspects that become overrated in that stat..

It's basically a box score summary stat, so there isn't really a point of mentioning it while mentioning raw stats along with it..

Here's how I would have went with MVP, off the top of my head..I'm using the criteria of having a winning team as well..

2000- Shaq, no brainer..
2001- Shaq..
2002- Duncan..
2003- Duncan..
2004- Garnett..
2005- Shaq..
2006- Nash..
2007- Nowitzki..
2008- Bryant..
2009- Lebron..
2010- Lebron..

[barbacoataco]

I think the point is that in the playoffs, in head to head matchups, when all the sudden the defense gets cranked up 10 notches, and the crowd is going crazy, and your opponent is a top player that wants to win, THAT is the moment that determines greatness. Often the only way to compare great players, in any sport, is when they meet up and the championship is on the line. Winning Wimbledon, the Tour de France, the Heavyweight Championship, the Olympics, the World Series. There is a moment where the standard of excellence is set so high that only the best can rise to the top, and at that moment, you can see who is the best.

[BUMP]

I never mention MVP's, stats, titles, or any awards when comparing players.


This is why I don't understand the argument here. Kobe was awarded Player of the Decade. Not Duncan, not Shaq, not Lebron, not AI, but Kobe.


If you are going to judge it based off of play you will have to go with Shaq...

Olympic Gold
4 Titles
3 Finals MVP's
3-peat

And Shaq has the bigger name than TD. The only thing TD has done that Shaq hasn't is stay on the same team and a bit more consistent. At the end of the day Shaq was bigger than TD, but TD was the better player. If TD had the co-stars as Shaq, (Penny, Kobe, Wade, Nash, James) he'd have 8 titles.


Kobe's 5th title trumps Duncan's third finals MVP

Kobe 3 allstar MVP's trumps Duncan's two season MVP's

Kobe's three-peat and back2back without Shaq trumps Duncan's being the best player on 4 title teams.

Kobe's 81 trumps anything Duncan has ever accomplished on the court.

Kobe's Gold > Duncan's Bronze

Kobe's wife > Duncans wife

Kobe's two retired Jersey's will trump Duncan's one.

Some of Lakaluva's finest....


First of all, I can name plenty of Bigs more skilled than Duncan. That whole Duncan is the greatest PF shit only flies because he's a nice guy. It's a nice guy award. Everyone knows Duncan is a pussy, and was afraid to play his natural position of center. Don't get me started on Duncan's bitch ass.


Listen you little cock sucker. Duncan was never the best player in this league. He was never even the best big man in this league.


You put Malone on those Duncan's teams and they go back to back. And this is no knock on Duncan, he's just not a beast.

:lmao:lmao:lmao

[Muser]

Damn luva getting bukkaked by the whole board again.

[MavDynasty]

:cry great fucking post bump.

[MavDynasty]

Damn luva getting bukkaked by the whole board again.

No surprises there. Nothing to see here folks, move along.

[BUMP]

According to LakaLuva Duncan>Shaq but Duncan was never even the best big in the league.

:lol

Who was the best big in the league during those years then, faggot?

[MavDynasty]

Of course this is the same dumbass who got a C in Calculus with a fucking tutor. I mean, how fucking stupid can you get?

[TheLakaluvaLibrary]

Great, great thread.

This entire conversation will definitely be added to our collection.

Now where to file it? Hmmm?

Ah, yes. 678.893 (History/World War II/Hiroshima, Nagasaki).

Like those ill fated Japanese cities, Lakaluva got the atomic bomb dropped on his ass in this thread.

Regards,

The Lakaluva Library.

[MavDynasty]

Great, great thread.

This entire conversation will definitely be added to our collection.

Now where to file it? Hmmm?

Ah, yes. 678.893 (History/World War II/Hiroshima, Nagasaki).

Like those ill fated Japanese cities, Lakaluva got the atomic bomb dropped on his ass in this thread.

Regards,

The Lakaluva Library.

:rollin:rollin:rollin:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[BUMP]

Ah, yes. 678.893 (History/World War II/Hiroshima, Nagasaki).

Like those ill fated Japanese cities, Lakaluva got the atomic bomb dropped on his ass in this thread.


:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin: rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:r ollin:rollin:rollin

[atxbuttknocker]

I hate to re-use old material but...




Tbh some of these advanced stats involve math and even in the case of PER calculus I think, so it's no surprise Luva pays them no heed. He couldn't make heads nor tails of them if he tried.


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4139/4808056720_a9b90b8c7f_b.jpg

Aaaaaaaaaaaaagggggghhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!

:elephant :elephant

[MavDynasty]

I hate to re-use old material but...

:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin: rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:r ollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:ro llin:rollin:rollin

[atxbuttknocker]

I love the smell of burnt paki in the morning sons. It smells like......Victory.


It's even better than the Wire or Heroes!!

:elephant :elephant

[TheLakaluvaLibrary]

I hate to re-use old material but...

Indeed.

The Math section here is emptier than Koolaid-Man's testicles after a night with our very own Lakaluva.

[MavDynasty]

Indeed.

The Math section here is emptier than Koolaid-Man's testicles after a night with our very own Lakaluva.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[Ashy Larry]

Combination of:

role of the team - usually to determine the GOAT, you have to be the main alpha dog
stats - got to have the numbers
rings - have to win the ultimate prize, Mr. Larry O'Brien

I think those three determines where you are in history.

[MavDynasty]

lol nba forum shitting all over the stinky pigger

[Zelophehad]

Combination of:

role of the team - usually to determine the GOAT, you have to be the main alpha dog
stats - got to have the numbers
rings - have to win the ultimate prize, Mr. Larry O'Brien

I think those three determines where you are in history.

:lmao Good luck getting this thread back on track.

[Ashy Larry]

:lmao Good luck getting this thread back on track.

yeah, I know ....... :toast

[TheKingOfMIA6]

No but Rings and Finals MVPs determine G.O.A.T.

[Veterinarian]

Tbh lakaluva is offline now, but his profile page should read "current activity: icing down asshole to reduce soreness and inflammation"

[TDMVPDPOY]

No but Rings and Finals MVPs determine G.O.A.T.

tp has both, does that make him goat equation? NO

[BUMP]

Tbh lakaluva is offline now, but his profile page should read "current activity: icing down asshole to reduce soreness and inflammation"

:lol

tbh, there is nobody better than Luva when it comes to trolling Spurfans. He's downright hilarious sometimes

But when he tries to talk basketball seriously, he's been owned thousands of times

He's still one of the funniest ones here though:lol

[HarlemHeat37]

Ya, this place wouldn't be the same without him..

I also think he's trolling, even when talking basketball..there's no way he believes some of the shit he says, so I think he's in troll mode 24/7..

He should stick to what he's good at..

[TheKingOfMIA6]

tp has both, does that make him goat equation? NO

not one of each but more

[MiamiHeat]

Why, did you get banned? :lol

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159017&highlight=realgm

I had a 2 year old account with only like 10 posts.

i made like 3-4 posts in the Bulls sub-forums when bulls fans were dissing wade right before free agency started. i defend wade and i got banned, perma IP banned. for basically nothing.

i googled around and apparently they hand out perma bans like candy because their site gets so much traffic they don't give a fuck.

[D2Procon]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159017&highlight=realgm

I had a 2 year old account with only like 10 posts.

i made like 3-4 posts in the Bulls sub-forums when bulls fans were dissing wade right before free agency started. i defend wade and i got banned, perma IP banned. for basically nothing.

i googled around and apparently they hand out perma bans like candy because their site gets so much traffic they don't give a fuck.

Hey faggot Bulls have 6 rings Heat have 1 6 > 1

[MavDynasty]

cool story ashraf

[D2Procon]

cool story ashraf

lol you're the one that rages in every single post. I mean seriously who the fuck rages on the internet, fucking faggot.