How many rings does MJ win if.......

[Frank Lucas]

his team signed a 24 year old Shaq the off season he was drafted?

We are trying to raise the bar, so I came up with a hypothetical worthy of discussion. Michael Jordan never had a dominant big man to play with, so I, Frank Lucas, pose the question to Spurstalk asking how many rings he would have won if the Bulls signed a 24 year old Shaq the Summer he was drafted.

I personally believe he wins 10+ rings. Neither he nor Shaq had a real co-star till around their 6th or 7th years in the league, so in addition to the 6 he wins after his 7th season he wins 4 in his first 6.

[Medvedenko]

The max 3...then Shaq would fuck it up.

[Frank Lucas]

The max 3...then Shaq would fuck it up.

Since this is a basketball discussion thread please provide facts and knowledge. What makes you think Shaq would fuck it up?

[Medvedenko]

Since this is a basketball discussion thread please provide facts and knowledge. What makes you think Shaq would fuck it up?

See Lakers
See Phoenix (with a 2 time MVP)
See Cleveland (with a 2 time MVP)
See Miami (1 and done)
See...only the future will tell.

[lebomb]

Shit, if Kobe wouldnt have fucked it up...........the Lakers may have won 6 straight back then. Ego trippin.

[Frank Lucas]

See Lakers
See Phoenix (with a 2 time MVP)
See Cleveland (with a 2 time MVP)
See Miami (1 and done)
See...only the future will tell.

Well this doesn't make much sense. The Suns couldn't win without him and neither could the Cavs. It's not really his fault he couldn't take a team to a championship level when they were never there without him.

[tdunk21]

The max 3...then Shaq would fuck it up.

u r stupid....shaq didnt fuck it up for the lakers....kobe did with his ego.....

[JamStone]

If they could co-exist (which would be improbable based on Jordan's ego and Shaq's history), they could have possibly won 6+ titles. Also depends on what era they play in. In the 90s, 6+ easily. In the 2000s, I think fewer but maybe around 5-6.

And then Michael would replace Kobe/Scottie Pippen as the best #2 player on a championship team. Michael would be regarded probably roughly around a top 10 player, but not in the discussion of GOAT. He might have a scoring title or two as Shaq got older and sat out long stretches of regular seasons. Jordan would have zero Finals MVPs, maybe 1 League MVP if he were lucky. He'd be the best among those second options of Kobe, Pippen, McHale, and the like.

[Medvedenko]

Well this doesn't make much sense. The Suns couldn't win without him and neither could the Cavs. It's not really his fault he couldn't take a team to a championship level when they were never there without him.

Well, the bulls never won before Jordan became godly....you just proved my point.

Also, I believe MJ wouldn't be able to get a long with a guy like Shaq after 2 or 3 rings due to personality conflicts. MJ wanted to be the man and it manifested into him dominating the league for years.

Now if they were to play nice, than yeah for sure rings a plenty. The better arguement would be if Shaq was drafted and went to the Bulls prior to MJ winning.....like in his 4 or 5th season.

[Medvedenko]

If they could co-exist (which would be improbable based on Jordan's ego and Shaq's history), they could have possibly won 6+ titles. Also depends on what era they play in. In the 90s, 6+ easily. In the 2000s, I think fewer but maybe around 5-6.

And then Michael would replace Kobe/Scottie Pippen as the best #2 player on a championship team. Michael would be regarded probably roughly around a top 10 player, but not in the discussion of GOAT. He might have a scoring title or two as Shaq got older and sat out long stretches of regular seasons. Jordan would have zero Finals MVPs, maybe 1 League MVP if he were lucky. He'd be the best among those second options of Kobe, Pippen, McHale, and the like.

Exactly, precisely and metaphorically sound.

[Medvedenko]

u r stupid....shaq didnt fuck it up for the lakers....kobe did with his ego.....

Really....who's left winning rings in LA (with his gigantic Ego and who's left chasing glory like a fat kid at thanksgiving)

[Frank Lucas]

Really....who's left winning rings in LA (with his gigantic Ego and who's left chasing glory like a fat kid at thanksgiving)

Shaq won a ring before LA did once he left iirc

[Booharv]

Truthfully, he would probably get bored and retire after winning 6-7 in his first 7-8 years. A common misconception is that MJ needed a while to learn and how to win. Bill Simmons properly argues in his book that Jordan matured early but that his team kept murdering him every spring.

[Booharv]

If they could co-exist (which would be improbable based on Jordan's ego and Shaq's history), they could have possibly won 6+ titles. Also depends on what era they play in. In the 90s, 6+ easily. In the 2000s, I think fewer but maybe around 5-6.

And then Michael would replace Kobe/Scottie Pippen as the best #2 player on a championship team. Michael would be regarded probably roughly around a top 10 player, but not in the discussion of GOAT. He might have a scoring title or two as Shaq got older and sat out long stretches of regular seasons. Jordan would have zero Finals MVPs, maybe 1 League MVP if he were lucky. He'd be the best among those second options of Kobe, Pippen, McHale, and the like.

Honestly, its sad seeing a good knowledgeable poster like Jamstone turn retarded when it comes to Jordan. His Jordan hatred makes him bend over backwards to come up with arguments to bash Jordan. Every compliment comes with like two three sentences of but...yada, yada, yada. It's tiresome as hell tbh.

[Medvedenko]

Honestly, its sad seeing a good knowledgeable poster like Jamstone turn retarded when it comes to Jordan. His Jordan hatred makes him bend over backwards to come up with arguments to bash Jordan. Every compliment comes with like two three sentences of but...yada, yada, yada. It's tiresome as hell tbh.

Jammy actually has a solid take. He watched MJ play and knows the perils of a guy like that playing alongside a dude like Shaq.

[TheKingOfMIA6]

u r stupid....shaq didnt fuck it up for the lakers....kobe did with his ego.....

This

[JamStone]

Honestly, its sad seeing a good knowledgeable poster like Jamstone turn retarded when it comes to Jordan. His Jordan hatred makes him bend over backwards to come up with arguments to bash Jordan. Every compliment comes with like two three sentences of but...yada, yada, yada. It's tiresome as hell tbh.

You honestly think Michael Jordan would cower and play second fiddle to Shaq? Or do you think Shaq would have done vice versa to Jordan?

I'm sorry, but Jordan wasn't going to take a backseat to anyone. He got pissed at teammates if they played well against him in practice. Forget about taking over as the number 1 guy on the team. For all his revisionist praise he's given to Scottie, he never let Scottie take over the team. He never relented and let Scottie have the ball in his hands late in close games.

Do you honestly believe Jordan would have let Shaq become a superstar for the sake of winning championships? The only reason Jordan isn't questioned about his desire to win before anything else is because he won his way. He never had to compromise. He never had to sacrifice. At least when it came to being "the man" on his teams.

It's fine to say Jordan > Kobe. That will always be true. But they are so alike in mentality and approach and ego. Jordan would have had a similar jealousy fit over Shaq being "the man." Jordan is like 50 years old now and he still has the same ego. We all saw how much of an ass he was at his HOF induction. The guy can't get over himself. He still had it out for his high school teammates and coaches.

In fact, truth be told, Jordan would have probably blown up before Kobe did.

Call it bias or whatever. I have admitted many times over on these boards that I hated Michael Jordan growing up. And while hate is too strong of a word for it now, I do still think that he was and still is an asshole with a massive ego problem, much like the way people think of Kobe. Jordan wouldn't have sit quietly in Shaq's background. You'd be foolish to think he would.

[Goran Dragic]

Honestly, its sad seeing a good knowledgeable poster like Jamstone turn retarded when it comes to Jordan. His Jordan hatred makes him bend over backwards to come up with arguments to bash Jordan. Every compliment comes with like two three sentences of but...yada, yada, yada. It's tiresome as hell tbh.

That's just how Pistonfan is in general so don't fault Jamstone. MJ ended their bad boy era which led to them sucking for a decade, so they hate MJ. Kobe shot the Lakers out of the finals in 2004 and gifted the Pistons a title, so they love Kobe.

[Jloyola]

Wouldnt this argument be better if ... Jordan had Hakeem or Duncan?.. in that case 10+

[Goran Dragic]

He still had it out for his high school teammates and coaches.

Can you blame him for that? I know that if I ever got cut from my HS team and then made the HoF in that respective sport I'd be sure to remind that coach about the mistake he made.

[Veterinarian]

Anybody read Medvedenko's garbage in this thread? Or did you all just scroll right through like I did? Anytime MJ versus Kobe is mentioned or even implied you know he's going to waste some space with his uselessness.

[Muser]

Anybody read Medvedenko's garbage in this thread? Or did you all just scroll right through like I did? Anytime MJ versus Kobe is mentioned or even implied you know he's going to waste some space with his uselessness.

He's gotta represent his cousin though...

[Goran Dragic]

lol Kobe Bryant's cousin

Hey Medvedenko, since Kobe is your cousin, why not post a pic of you and him together?

[Veterinarian]

He said that in an attempt to be funny. Unbelievable, but true.

[Goran Dragic]

What was supposed to be funny about it?

[Veterinarian]

What was supposed to be funny about it?

You got me.

[Veterinarian]

I speak short bus though, that's how I knew it was a comedy attempt.

[JamStone]

That's just how Pistonfan is in general so don't fault Jamstone. MJ ended their bad boy era which led to them sucking for a decade, so they hate MJ. Kobe shot the Lakers out of the finals in 2004 and gifted the Pistons a title, so they love Kobe.

That's probably the main reason why I hated (past tense) Michael Jordan. But I give him his due praise. He's the GOAT. The best ever. And Kobe can't sniff his jock strap. Whether I hated him for ending the Bad Boys run or not, I would still say he's an ego-driven asshole. Hell, I say the same of Kobe as a person. Kobe is a fucking prick of a person who doesn't deserve the blessings he gets in life. But I appreciate Kobe the player, and I have admittedly become a Kobe apologist in large part because of the unrelenting and biased hate against him by Laker haters and Kobe haters alike.

If I didn't grow up hating Jordan as a Pistons fan, I'd probably be the same way with Jordan.




Can you blame him for that? I know that if I ever got cut from my HS team and then made the HoF in that respective sport I'd be sure to remind that coach about the mistake he made.

Sure I can blame him, particularly because of what he did achieve in his professional basketball career and in life. Close to 30 years later, million upon millions of dollars later, achieving sports legend and world wide iconic status, he has a petty vendetta against a kid from high school who didn't even have anything to do with making the decision to cut him and a high school coach who probably provided the ammunition for him to become the greatest player ever. Sure I can blame him for holding that grudge 25-30 years later. How egomaniacal is that?

[Goran Dragic]

Sure I can blame him, particularly because of what he did achieve in his professional basketball career and in life. Close to 30 years later, million upon millions of dollars later, achieving sports legend and world wide iconic status, he has a petty vendetta against a kid from high school who didn't even have anything to do with making the decision to cut him and a high school coach who probably provided the ammunition for him to become the greatest player ever. Sure I can blame him for holding that grudge 25-30 years later. How egomaniacal is that?

The grudge against the players is a bit much, but the coach I don't blame him at all. It's no different than the nerd who got picked on in high school and then went on to make tons of money and can't wait to get back to his 10 year high school reunion to show all the kids who were popular but amounted to nothing how big he made it.

[Zelophehad]

Sure I can blame him, particularly because of what he did achieve in his professional basketball career and in life. Close to 30 years later, million upon millions of dollars later, achieving sports legend and world wide iconic status, he has a petty vendetta against a kid from high school who didn't even have anything to do with making the decision to cut him and a high school coach who probably provided the ammunition for him to become the greatest player ever. Sure I can blame him for holding that grudge 25-30 years later. How egomaniacal is that?

You'll probably think I'm making excuses, but I don't think you can love his work ethic and motivation, his drive (which quite honestly was other worldly) and then bash the fact that he had irrationals feuds and pettiness. Those irrational feuds and pettiness is part of the reason why he was such an over achieving maniac in practice. It's part of his psychological makeup, flawed but perfect for a basketball player and leader.

Besides from what I've read about him almost none of his teammates regret playing with him. They just acknowledge there were some hard times. And hey let's be honest a kick in the ass works better for some players than a pat in the behind.

[Zelophehad]

I speak short bus though, that's how I knew it was a comedy attempt.

I honestly don't think that's it, but I have no idea why that guy is claiming Kobe is his cousin.

[redzero]

That's just how Pistonfan is in general so don't fault Jamstone. MJ ended their bad boy era which led to them sucking for a decade, so they hate MJ. Kobe shot the Lakers out of the finals in 2004 and gifted the Pistons a title, so they love Kobe.

In all fairness to Kobe, that Lakers team wasn't beating the Pistons either way. He still shot like shit, though.

[Goran Dragic]

In all fairness to Kobe, that Lakers team wasn't beating the Pistons either way. He still shot like shit, though.

You don't think the Lakers win game 1 and keep home court advantage if Shaq gets more than 16 shots and Kobe doesn't go 10-27?

[Medvedenko]

I honestly don't think that's it, but I have no idea why that guy is claiming Kobe is his cousin.

A thread back, Dragic asked how I can possibly be a Laker fan, when I don't live in LA....well, given that inane approach to fandom, I stated Kobe's my cousin.

[Darrin]

his team signed a 24 year old Shaq the off season he was drafted?

We are trying to raise the bar, so I came up with a hypothetical worthy of discussion. Michael Jordan never had a dominant big man to play with, so I, Frank Lucas, pose the question to Spurstalk asking how many rings he would have won if the Bulls signed a 24 year old Shaq the Summer he was drafted.

I personally believe he wins 10+ rings. Neither he nor Shaq had a real co-star till around their 6th or 7th years in the league, so in addition to the 6 he wins after his 7th season he wins 4 in his first 6.

O'Neal, Jordan, Grant, and Pippen? :toast

They may run the table for 10 years.

[Goran Dragic]

A thread back, Dragic asked how I can possibly be a Laker fan, when I don't live in LA....well, given that inane approach to fandom, I stated Kobe's my cousin.
Surely you have a sincere reason for why you're a Lakers fan?

[Muser]

I'm a Spurs fan from England, hey everybody Tim Duncan is my brother!!

[Chillen]

Well imagine Longley and Cartwright replaced by a dominant Shaq. easily 7-9 rings.

[Medvedenko]

Are people retarded on this board.....this isn't NBA 2k or Live....they would never win more than 3 max.

[Zelophehad]

A thread back, Dragic asked how I can possibly be a Laker fan, when I don't live in LA....well, given that inane approach to fandom, I stated Kobe's my cousin.

It was an attempt to be sarcastic? Then you were trying to be funny, because sarcasm is comedic. Right? My brain hurts from this.

[BUMP]

Are people retarded on this board.....this isn't NBA 2k or Live....they would never win more than 3 max.

wtf was gonna stop them? MJ would've won more than 3 if he didn't go play baseball.

[redzero]

You don't think the Lakers win game 1 and keep home court advantage if Shaq gets more than 16 shots and Kobe doesn't go 10-27?

As you can see by the rest of the series, home court advantage was basically meaningless for the Lakers. They barely won game 2 because of a crazy shot by Kobe that sent it into overtime.

The Pistons shut down everybody on that team outside of Shaq. They guarded Shaq, but they knew that their biggest concern was containing the role players. The Lakers weren't winning either way.

[JamStone]

You'll probably think I'm making excuses, but I don't think you can love his work ethic and motivation, his drive (which quite honestly was other worldly) and then bash the fact that he had irrationals feuds and pettiness. Those irrational feuds and pettiness is part of the reason why he was such an over achieving maniac in practice. It's part of his psychological makeup, flawed but perfect for a basketball player and leader.

Besides from what I've read about him almost none of his teammates regret playing with him. They just acknowledge there were some hard times. And hey let's be honest a kick in the ass works better for some players than a pat in the behind.

I agree with that. And I understand why Michael Jordan was such a prick. Understanding that doesn't make him not a prick. He was a prick and still is a prick. But I realize that's part of his competitive nature and the type of personality that was required for him to achieve the things he did.

I criticize Jordan more so for continuing to be such a prick well after his playing days. I mean, 50 years old, time to let it go. Time to chill out. That's me though.

And what former teammate is going to speak out against Michael Jordan? Let's be real. I think it's much more telling how he was as a teammate for the Wizards. More of those players have been more open about Michael Jordan as a teammate and a person.



In all fairness to Kobe, that Lakers team wasn't beating the Pistons either way. He still shot like shit, though.

Nope. If Kobe doesn't play Lone Ranger in an attempt to get a Finals MVP, the Lakers win the 2004 Title, even with Karl Malone's injury.

[Goran Dragic]

As you can see by the rest of the series, home court advantage was basically meaningless for the Lakers. They barely won game 2 because of a crazy shot by Kobe that sent it into overtime.
The home team won every game after game 1. Try again.


The Pistons shut down everybody on that team outside of Shaq.
Yet Shaq wasn't leading the team in shots, and for no reason other than Kobe was only willing to win if it was his way.

[BUMP]

I agree with that. And I understand why Michael Jordan was such a prick. Understanding that doesn't make him not a prick. He was a prick and still is a prick. But I realize that's part of his competitive nature and the type of personality that was required for him to achieve the things he did.

The truly best players in every sport have to be nasty in order to be as dominant as they are. However, i never understood why MJ sometimes kept that same attitude off the court.

Surprisingly, Kobe seems much more of a good person than Michael was. Kobe is always extremely humble in interviews. Giving credit to his teammates and other players. Naturally, though, you can expect a Spurs board to act with hostility towards him. The Spurs would have 3 more rings if not for Kobe.

But there is no denying that in general, the guy is much a classier act than Jordan is.

[redzero]

The home team won every game after game 1. Try again.

After game one, the Lakers played one more game at the Staples Center, and they barely won game 2. After that, they were pummeled in Detroit. Homecourt wasn't going to make everything better.



Yet Shaq wasn't leading the team in shots, and for no reason other than Kobe was only willing to win if it was his way.

I'm not saying that Kobe didn't hurt his team, I'm just saying that the Lakers were outmatched outside of Shaq and Kobe.

[Goran Dragic]

I'm not saying that Kobe didn't hurt his team, I'm just saying that the Lakers were outmatched outside of Shaq


fify

[Zelophehad]

The truly best players in every sport have to be nasty in order to be as dominant as they are. However, i never understood why MJ sometimes kept that same attitude off the court.

Surprisingly, Kobe seems much more of a good person than Michael was. Kobe is always extremely humble in interviews. Giving credit to his teammates and other players. Naturally, though, you can expect a Spurs board to act with hostility towards him. The Spurs would have 3 more rings if not for Kobe.

But there is no denying that in general, the guy is much a classier act than Jordan is.
Tbh Jordan was very prepared and mostly PC during interviews in his playing days. We'll see how Kobe acts when he's been retired for ten years and he's out of the limelight.

On a different topic, the "I root for the Lakers because Kobe's my cousin" line might be the worst joke/comeback/sarcastic insult in the 21st century. It was so bad no one could even understand it.

[redzero]

fify

Hey, Kobe and everybody else was bricking their shots outside of Shaq. There's no argument there.

[Goran Dragic]

Hey, Kobe and everybody else was bricking their shots outside of Shaq. There's no argument there.


Yet they weren't passing Shaq the ball.

[redzero]

Yet they weren't passing Shaq the ball.

Kobe wasn't passing Shaq the ball. Well, and everybody, too, I guess. They all took their turns missing shots.

[mindcrime]

OK so the nerd in me kicked-in and I had to go back and check the 2004 finals box score. I had forgotten how horrible Kobe played that series. Shaq shot at least 50% in every game. Kobe, not so much.

kobe
FGM-A %
game 1 10-27 37%
game 2 14-27 52%
game 3 4-13 31%
game 4 8-25 32%
game 5 7-21 33%


shaq
FGM-A %
game 1 13-16 81%
game 2 10-20 50%
game 3 7-14 50%
game 4 16-21 76%
game 5 7-13 54%

[Muser]

Just goes to show how much of a beast Shaq was when you can put up those numbers against prime Ben + Rasheed Wallace.

[MiamiHeat]

Honestly, its sad seeing a good knowledgeable poster like Jamstone turn retarded when it comes to Jordan. His Jordan hatred makes him bend over backwards to come up with arguments to bash Jordan. Every compliment comes with like two three sentences of but...yada, yada, yada. It's tiresome as hell tbh.

you took the words out of my head. exactly.

he's basically trying to say "kobe would have 6 rings, 6 finals mvps, dpoy, 5 league mvps, 10 straight scoring titles....if not for shaq"

i've just come to accept that JamStone is a huge kobe/laker dickrider and MJ hater.

[MiamiHeat]

The grudge against the players is a bit much, but the coach I don't blame him at all. It's no different than the nerd who got picked on in high school and then went on to make tons of money and can't wait to get back to his 10 year high school reunion to show all the kids who were popular but amounted to nothing how big he made it.

i 100% agree with most of your points here

but i just want to add that i've seen MJ's hall of fame speech 3 times, and i never got a bad vibe out of it. MJ was poking fun, not "angrily taking revenge"

i've come to suspect that the people who hear MJ's speech and make a big deal about it need to be around real men more or just have an agenda. grown men poke fun at each other and laugh at shit we used to do all the time.

[JamStone]

you took the words out of my head. exactly.

he's basically trying to say "kobe would have 6 rings, 6 finals mvps, dpoy, 5 league mvps, 10 straight scoring titles....if not for shaq"

i've just come to accept that JamStone is a huge kobe/laker dickrider and MJ hater.

Wow. That's not at all what I said or suggested.

I said Michael wouldn't be the GOAT if he played with Shaq. If you want to debate that, fine. But don't put words in my mouth.

[JamStone]

i 100% agree with most of your points here

but i just want to add that i've seen MJ's hall of fame speech 3 times, and i never got a bad vibe out of it. MJ was poking fun, not "angrily taking revenge"

i've come to suspect that the people who hear MJ's speech and make a big deal about it need to be around real men more or just have an agenda. grown men poke fun at each other and laugh at shit we used to do all the time.

Men poke fun with each when they're friends, when they actually are cool with one another.

Michael probably hadn't spoken to that high school kid that took his spot on the high school varsity squad since high school, 25 or so years before the HOF speech. What was the reason to fly him all the way to the induction just to make fun of him?

Do you think Bryon Russell and Michael Jordan are friendly with each other?

It was tacky and petty. It wasn't friendly ribbing between a couple of buddies. It was Michael manifesting a childish and awkward grudge on a national stage.

[MiamiHeat]

no, you didn't say those words. it's just what it sounds like.

this is your post


And then Michael would replace Kobe/Scottie Pippen as the best #2 player on a championship team. Michael would be regarded probably roughly around a top 10 player, but not in the discussion of GOAT. He might have a scoring title or two as Shaq got older and sat out long stretches of regular seasons. Jordan would have zero Finals MVPs, maybe 1 League MVP if he were lucky. He'd be the best among those second options of Kobe, Pippen, McHale, and the like.

Jordan was the #3 pick overall. NBA Ready from Day one. He was top 5 in the NBA FROM THE GET GO.

Jordan's Rookie Stats : 28.2 PPG, 5.9 APG, 6.5 RPG, 2.39 steals per game, 51% FG% AS A MOTHERFUCKIN ROOKIE

Kobe was a mid-first round pick, a project player who was not NBA ready. He had to ride the bench for his first 2 or 3 seasons cause he wasn't good enough.


It's not even close to the same. There is NO WAY MJ takes "Pippen #2 role". We can even get past the amazing talent MJ had, and just go into his competitive spirit.

Shaq would accept #2, or at best, share co-star spotlight.

Hilarious JamStone.

"MJ would retire with 0 finals mvp, maybe 1 league mvp"

hahahshasajshadjhsjdhdfd

[JamStone]

no, you didn't say those words. it's just what it sounds like.

this is your post



Jordan was the #3 pick overall. NBA Ready from Day one. He was top 5 in the NBA FROM THE GET GO.

Jordan's Rookie Stats : 28.2 PPG, 5.9 APG, 6.5 RPG, 2.39 steals per game, 51% FG% AS A MOTHERFUCKIN ROOKIE

Kobe was a mid-first round pick, a project player who was not NBA ready. He had to ride the bench for his first 2 or 3 seasons cause he wasn't good enough.


It's not even close to the same. There is NO WAY MJ takes "Pippen #2 role". We can even get past the amazing talent MJ had, and just go into his competitive spirit.

Shaq would accept #2, or at best, share co-star spotlight.

Hilarious JamStone.

"MJ would retire with 0 finals mvp, maybe 1 league mvp"

hahahshasajshadjhsjdhdfd


There is NO WAY MJ takes "Pippen #2 role".

Exactly.

But, let's go back to the hypothetical of the original post.

Michael Jordan as a rookie. Same off season, Shaq joins that team as a 24 year old. Assuming the analogy is supposed to be consistent with the circumstances of which Shaq joined the Lakers, we're talking about a 24 year old, 4 year NBA veteran Shaquille O'Neal, who had already established himself as a dominant 26-29 point per game scorer on 57% shooting from the field and had led his two seasons prior to the NBA Finals.

That Shaq.

And you're suggesting that Shaq would have accepted #2 to a rookie Jordan.

Riiiiight.

[Goran Dragic]

i 100% agree with most of your points here

but i just want to add that i've seen MJ's hall of fame speech 3 times, and i never got a bad vibe out of it. MJ was poking fun, not "angrily taking revenge"

i've come to suspect that the people who hear MJ's speech and make a big deal about it need to be around real men more or just have an agenda. grown men poke fun at each other and laugh at shit we used to do all the time.

Yeah I didn't think it was a big deal but if I were that guy who made the HS team over him I woulda felt awkward and somewhat humiliated by it. My overall point is that the grudge MJ holds from HS is typical behavior of most people.

[narmerguy]

The truly best players in every sport have to be nasty in order to be as dominant as they are. However, i never understood why MJ sometimes kept that same attitude off the court.

Surprisingly, Kobe seems much more of a good person than Michael was. Kobe is always extremely humble in interviews. Giving credit to his teammates and other players. Naturally, though, you can expect a Spurs board to act with hostility towards him. The Spurs would have 3 more rings if not for Kobe.

But there is no denying that in general, the guy is much a classier act than Jordan is.

Wrong. See: Peyton Manning, potential GOAT at his position.

[Quit Hatin']

better analogy what would jordan do if he was drafted into a team with a prime eddie jones and nick van exel?

[Goran Dragic]

better analogy what would jordan do if he was drafted into a team with a prime eddie jones and nick van exel?
Why is it the better analogy? Kobe had one of the best big men of all time at the ripe age of 24 to play with as a rookie.

[Quit Hatin']

ya but he didnt start. he was playing behind two all stars in their prime.

[Mavs_man_41]

If they could co-exist (which would be improbable based on Jordan's ego and Shaq's history), they could have possibly won 6+ titles. Also depends on what era they play in. In the 90s, 6+ easily. In the 2000s, I think fewer but maybe around 5-6.

And then Michael would replace Kobe/Scottie Pippen as the best #2 player on a championship team. Michael would be regarded probably roughly around a top 10 player, but not in the discussion of GOAT. He might have a scoring title or two as Shaq got older and sat out long stretches of regular seasons. Jordan would have zero Finals MVPs, maybe 1 League MVP if he were lucky. He'd be the best among those second options of Kobe, Pippen, McHale, and the like.

seriously bro, you usually post pretty good ideas but are you intentionally trying to be a fucking idiot?

[JamStone]

seriously bro, you usually post pretty good ideas but are you intentionally trying to be a fucking idiot?

No, I'm not trying to be a fucking idiot. And for those of you who disagree with my opinion, it's fine. But instead of slinging insults, at least explain what specifically you disagree with.

My contention is that if Michael Jordan was drafted in the same summer a 24 year old Shaquille O'Neal joined that same team, after Shaq had just established himself as an all star player who dominated the game putting up 26-29 ppg, 11 rpg, while shooting 57%+ from the field and leading a team to the NBA Finals just two summers prior as the franchise and go-to guy, that Shaquille O'Neal would not have been ok at being the second option to a then rookie Michael Jordan, no matter how much hype Jordan had coming into the league.

That's my position.

And I do believe Jordan had a similar ego as a Kobe Bryant where he would none be too pleased being that second option. And a similar power struggle would occur, especially because they would both similarly be young and ready to be in the prime of their basketball careers. This wouldn't be a similar situation to having a 32 year old Kareem Abdul Jabbar who had already won a championship and won 5 or 6 League MVPs and had no problem relinquishing keys to the franchise to a young Magic Johnson. This wouldn't be the same as a 32 year old David Robinson who had already won a League MVP, a DPOY, and was a multiple all star who was ready to share the stardom and glory with another great player before starting his decline in his career.

This would be a 20 year old Michael Jordan joining a 24 year old Shaquille O'Neal who had not yet built his Hall of Fame legacy yet. I don't think they or either respective ego would have been able to co-exist for 6-10 championship seasons.

Now if you want to argue against that, fine. Go ahead and explain how it would work, with either Michael taking second fiddle or the most offensively dominant big man in the modern era of NBA basketball at just 24 years of age would have cowered to a younger rookie Jordan. Explain that and make it a sincere and thoughtful debate.

It's unnecessary to call me a fucking idiot without even trying to present an argument. So you and whoever else wants to disagree, I'm all for you posting the counter argument.

[Mavs_man_41]

No, I'm not trying to be a fucking idiot. And for those of you who disagree with my opinion, it's fine. But instead of slinging insults, at least explain what specifically you disagree with.

My contention is that if Michael Jordan was drafted in the same summer a 24 year old Shaquille O'Neal joined that same team, after Shaq had just established himself as an all star player who dominated the game putting up 26-29 ppg, 11 rpg, while shooting 57%+ from the field and leading a team to the NBA Finals just two summers prior as the franchise and go-to guy, that Shaquille O'Neal would not have been ok at being the second option to a then rookie Michael Jordan, no matter how much hype Jordan had coming into the league.

That's my position.

And I do believe Jordan had a similar ego as a Kobe Bryant where he would none be too pleased being that second option. And a similar power struggle would occur, especially because they would both similarly be young and ready to be in the prime of their basketball careers. This wouldn't be a similar situation to having a 32 year old Kareem Abdul Jabbar who had already won a championship and won 5 or 6 League MVPs and had no problem relinquishing keys to the franchise to a young Magic Johnson. This wouldn't be the same as a 32 year old David Robinson who had already won a League MVP, a DPOY, and was a multiple all star who was ready to share the stardom and glory with another great player before starting his decline in his career.

This would be a 20 year old Michael Jordan joining a 24 year old Shaquille O'Neal who had not yet built his Hall of Fame legacy yet. I don't think they or either respective ego would have been able to co-exist for 6-10 championship seasons.

Now if you want to argue against that, fine. Go ahead and explain how it would work, with either Michael taking second fiddle or the most offensively dominant big man in the modern era of NBA basketball at just 24 years of age would have cowered to a younger rookie Jordan. Explain that and make it a sincere and thoughtful debate.

It's unnecessary to call me a fucking idiot without even trying to present an argument. So you and whoever else wants to disagree, I'm all for you posting the counter argument.

I didn't call you a fucking idiot for suggesting that there would be conflict, I called you that for suggesting that MJ would play 2nd fiddle to Shaq, or that a Shaq/Jordan combo would win less titles than Jordan won by himself just because "it's in the 2000's" like that was some super era of basketball that the GOAT wouldn't have been able to dominate. The east was so weak throughout most of the 2000's that they would have had a free pass to the finals every single year, who's going to stop them, the Nets? You're always trying to take subliminal shots at Jordan and it hasn't gone unnoticed, I just think it's stupid.

[JamStone]

I suggested Michael would play second fiddle to Shaq because if there wouldn't be a power struggle/conflict between the two, that's how it would have to be. As great as Michael Jordan was, there was no defender, no team, that could stop Shaquille O'Neal in his prime. Shaq would be the #1 go-to guy on a team with him and Michael Jordan, ESPECIALLY based on the hypothetical where Shaq was a four year veteran when Jordan was a rookie NBA player. It would be Shaq's team. If they made it work, Jordan would have to be the second option. Would that team put Jordan in the midpost and have Shaq out by the three point line in the triangle offense? Of course not. Shaq in the post getting the majority of the touches. Jordan the second option getting secondary opportunities. Any other way, and then the conflict starts.

That's why I suggested Michael would be the second fiddle, because if he weren't there would definitely have been a conflict between the two that would have probably forced one of them to be traded.


I said if you put Shaq on those Bulls teams in the 90s, they win 6 or more easily so I didn't say Jordan would have won less than he did by himself in the 90s. I don't think the competition in the 2000s has been the greatest era of basketball or anything like that, but I do think the 2000s have offered better competition than the 90s did against the Bulls. If it's the 2000s, then it's the Lakers and they still face some great teams in the Spurs, Mavs, early 2000 Kings, Blazers, later in the decade Suns. There's no free pass to the Finals for Shaq-Jordan, at least not every single year. Saying Shaq-Jordan in the 2000s would win 5-6 titles when they had to get through the 2000 Western Conference doesn't strike me as a ridiculous statement.

I admit that I hate on Jordan. I can even admit that I am biased against him. You can think whatever you want, view my comments and opinions however you want. For someone so biased against Jordan, I do provide explanation and evidence as to why I believe something. I give you reasons why I think something. It's not just pure hate on Jordan or intended subliminal shots at the guy. If I want to hate on Jordan, I'll simply do it without having to hide it in between the lines. He was a fucking asshole, still is. But that's not why I said the things I did about how many titles he'd win if teamed up with Shaq.

But hey, it doesn't really matter if you merely think I'm just trying to be a fucking idiot.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

:corn: