Got into a heated discussion today with a co-worker

[TheSpursFNRule]

Who's had a better career thus far...

Steve Nash or J-Kidd?

Discuss....

[BUMP]

Why would you get heated over that?

Anyway, I'd say Nash since he won back to back MVPs. Kidd got into the Finals twice, albeit in a super weak EC. And they got raped both times so it's not like it really mattered that much anyway

[HarlemHeat37]

I would go with Nash, I'll present my argument if anybody disagrees..

Better career, and better overall player IMO..

[Goran Dragic]

A year ago I say Kidd but last season Nash validated 2005-2007 as more than a fluke 3 year era unlike the way he played for the rest of his career.

[Don Ready]

Nash when you look at the MVP awards and stats. Not much else to go on with those two.

[TheHeatIsOn]

My nigga Nasg b2b MVP

[DesignatedT]

Nash. b2b MVP. If Kidd won 1 of those finals it would be close.

[JamStone]

I think Jason Kidd but it's pretty close. Wouldn't argue to much against someone saying Nash.

Kidd dominated the point guard position longer, for most of his career, and pretty much on every team he's played for until he got old. Alternatively, D'Antoni's system appeared to play a major role in Steve Nash becoming a superstar. And while it was obviously in a much weaker conference, Kidd almost single-handedly taking a team to the NBA Finals twice is more impressive to me than Nash's two MVPs.

It's close, but personally I'd say Kidd.

That said, Nash with those two MVPs will probably be regarded as the better player say 10 years from now when people debate it.

[ohmwrecker]

Steve Nash is kind of a student of Jason Kidd backing him up in Phoenix his rookie and sophomore year. Jason Kidd has a more complete game than Nash. It's a close, but as far as "career" goes it comes down to 2 MVPs vs 2 finals appearances . . . Kidd's a better player, but Nash has had the better career.

[Bito Corleone]

That shouldn't even be a debate. If you're asking who's had the better career then all you have to look at is that they both have zero rings, and Nash has two MVPs.

Now if the question was simply who is the better point guard, then you can have a debate...but it's probably still Nash.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

Kidd got Gold in Beijing. Did Nash play for Canada?

Interesting topic, it's close.

[HarlemHeat37]

Wow, please have some respect, and take me out of your sig..at least wait and see if you could miraculously beat me in an argument before doing something stupid like that..

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

Wow, please have some respect, and take me out of your sig..at least wait and see if you could miraculously beat me in an argument before doing something stupid like that..

Hey pussy, I argued, you fucking tucked tail and ran,. a beaten little girl


HarlemHeat37: AKA MiamiHeat AKA phony Spurs fan. Get your dick out of Kobe's ass and take LeBron's Johnson out of your trap and argue in above thread then.

[Findog]

Kidd, but it's close. Better player in his prime than Nash, two more Finals appearances, one less MVP award, two-way player instead of offense only.

You could make an argument for Nash too, but I'll go with Kidd.

[Greg Oden]

I'd rather have Kidd to build a team around, because he's not a liability on one side, and he doesn't have to have a tailor made offensive system that takes advantage of all of his offensive skills. Also, Kenyon Martin isn't exactly Amare Stoudemire.


However, Nash is one of the best shooters of all time.

It's close, tbh. More of a preference thing.

[HeatBurn305]

I'd rather have Kidd to build a team around, because he's not a liability on one side, and he doesn't have to have a tailor made offensive system that takes advantage of all of his offensive skills. Also, Kenyon Martin isn't exactly Amare Stoudemire.


However, Nash is one of the best shooters of all time.

It's close, tbh. More of a preference thing.

Greg gettin' his backtrack on.

You slimy thing, you

[Goran Dragic]

Jason Kidd has a more complete game than Nash.
Yeah, Jason Kidd developed a great jumper and ability to finish at the rim with either hand, Nash's jumper sucks. Incomplete.

[Greg Oden]

lmao goran dragic

first goes from hating Amare's guts to being his biggest fan, now the same thing with Nash. You have no shame.

[SomeCallMeTim]

Kidd. I give very little credence to the MVP awards.

[Greg Oden]

Greg gettin' his backtrack on.

You slimy thing, you

I'm not saying whoever's troll this is should kill themselves, but they should definitely look into the possibility of ending their life.

[Goran Dragic]

lmao goran dragic

first goes from hating Amare's guts to being his biggest fan, now the same thing with Nash. You have no shame.
Sons, I'm not being a "Nash fan" or anything, just saying idk how Jason Kidd is more complete.

Saying Deron Williams is more complete than Rajon Rondo wouldn't make me a Deron Williams fan.

[Sigz]

Forget the guy that beats women.

[Greg Oden]

Sons, I'm not being a "Nash fan" or anything, just saying idk how Jason Kidd is more complete.

Saying Deron Williams is more complete than Rajon Rondo wouldn't make me a Deron Williams fan.

They both have flaws, but Nash's are certainly more prevalent, like not being able to stay in front of Mike Bibby for one.

[HeatBurn305]

I'm not saying whoever's troll this is should kill themselves, but they should definitely look into the possibility of ending their life.

I checked your asshole, looking pretty tight right now

tee, hee

[Goran Dragic]

They both have flaws, but Nash's are certainly more prevalent, like not being able to stay in front of Mike Bibby for one.

Or Jason Kidd not being able to avoid leaving George Hill open.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Kidd, because he actually played stellar defense. It is pretty close, and props to Nash for still being able to play this well this late into his career.

[HeatBurn305]

Kidd, because he actually played stellar defense. It is pretty close, and props to Nash for still being able to play this well this late into his career.

sedday, getting his San Antonio Nets on!

[SomeCallMeTim]

Greg gettin' his backtrack on.

You slimy thing, you

HeatBurn 305... why?

Do your accounts automatically die at 5000 posts or something?

[Greg Oden]

Sure, a 37 year old Jason Kidd who was never blazing fast to begin with played a part in a 14 years younger player beating him to spots. I guess that's a flaw ancient PG's tend to have.

[HeatBurn305]

HeatBurn 305... why?

Do your accounts automatically die at 5000 posts or something?

Katie girl doesn't like me spending too much time on here.

That nasty bitch

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Steve Nash NBA career highlights:

* 2× NBA Most Valuable Player: 2005, 2006
* 7× NBA All-Star: 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010
* 7× All-NBA selection:
o First team: 2005, 2006, 2007
o Second team: 2008, 2010
o Third team: 2002, 2003
* 2× NBA All-Star Weekend Skills Challenge winner: 2005, 2010
* 4× NBA regular season leader for assists per game: 2005 (11.5), 2006 (10.5), 2007 (11.6), 2010 (11.0)[10]
* 4× NBA regular season leader for total assists: 2005 (861), 2006 (826), 2007 (884), 2010 (892)[10]
* 2× NBA regular season leader for free-throw percentage: 2006 (.921), 2010 (.938)[10]
* 6× NBA regular season leader for assists per 48 minutes: 2004 (12.6),[59] 2005 (16.1),[60] 2006 (14.2),[61] 2007 (15.8),[62] 2008 (15.5),[63] 2010 (16.1)
* 5x member of 50-40-90 Club: (2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010)
o Has more 50-40-90 seasons than any other player in NBA history
o One of only five players to have ever shot 50-40-90
o One of only two players to have shot 50-40-90 more than once
o Only player to have shot 50-40-90 five seasons in a row
* Lou Marsh Trophy (Canadian athlete of the year): 2005[64]
* 3× Lionel Conacher Award (Canadian male athlete of the year): 2002, 2005, 2006
* J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award (NBA award for outstanding citizenship and community service): 2007


Jason Kidd:

* 10-time NBA All-Star: 1996, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2008, 2010
* 6-time All-NBA:

* First Team: 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004
* Second Team: 2003

* 9-time All-Defensive Selection:

* First Team : 1999, 2001, 2002, 2006
* Second Team: 2000, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007

* NBA co-Rookie of the Year: 1995 (with Grant Hill)
* NBA All-Rookie First Team: 1995
* NBA All-Star Skills Challenge champion: 2003
* 5-time NBA regular-season leader, assists per game: 1999 (10.8), 2000 (10.1), 2001 (9.8), 2003 (8.9), 2004 (9.2)
* 3-time NBA regular-season leader, total assists: 1999 (539), 2001 (753), 2003 (711)
* NBA regular-season leader, total steals: 2002 (175)

[SomeCallMeTim]

Katie girl doesn't like me spending too much time on here.

That nasty bitch

OK, who's imitating Culburn with the new troll?

[HeatBurn305]

OK, who's imitating Culburn with the new troll?

Imemulatedao!!

[Greg Oden]

OK, who's imitating Culburn with the new troll?

I don't know, but they should sent themselves directly to the tree of woe.

[Goran Dragic]

Sure, a 37 year old Jason Kidd who was never blazing fast to begin with played a part in a 14 years younger player beating him to spots. I guess that's a flaw ancient PG's tend to have.

How does Kidd's age excuse the fact he just decided to float off Hill and leave Hill wide open? It's not like Hill kept beating him off the dribble, he just kept giving Hill wide open shots.

[HarlemHeat37]

The defense and rebounding argument isn't nearly enough to top all of Nash's advantages IMO..

Kidd's defense is overrated in general, and Nash's defense isn't nearly as bad as stated IMO..more importantly, PG defense is extremely overrated in general, and it's not as valuable as the defense at any other position from an individual standpoint..

Another thing about prime Kidd is that not only did he not dominate against quick PGs from a defensive standpoint, but he would also struggle even more in this era, since he was one of the biggest "handcheck defenders" of all-time on the perimeter..

Even in his prime, Kidd had no mid-range J, struggled at shooting 3s, struggled to finish at the rim, was never a great 3-point shooter, and had trouble in general at beating half-court defenses..Kidd has only led one top 10 offense during his entire career IIRC, which speaks volumes on their difference as offensive weapons..even though Nash has had a better supporting cast, Kidd's offense is clearly overrated and limited to running fast breaks/transition from a dominating standpoint..

Is defense and rebounding from the PG position enough for Kidd to outweigh Nash's positives and numerous offensive advantages over him?..

[Amuseddaysleeper]

How does Kidd's age excuse the fact he just decided to float off Hill and leave Hill wide open? It's not like Hill kept beating him off the dribble, he just kept giving Hill wide open shots.

In fairness to the Mavs, I don't think anyone expected Hill to have the series he did. God knows Hill got destroyed by the Suns in the 2nd round bricking shot after shot. The Mavs game plan wanted the Spurs taking outside shots because they didn't have too many reliable 3 point shooters. George Hill changed that series, but missed all those shots in the 2nd round while the Suns hit all of theirs.

[Goran Dragic]

Sure, a 37 year old Jason Kidd who was never blazing fast to begin with played a part in a 14 years younger player beating him to spots. I guess that's a flaw ancient PG's tend to have.


Btw the old PG Hill played in the next round didn't struggle with knowing not to leave an NBA player wide open.

[Goran Dragic]

In fairness to the Mavs, I don't think anyone expected Hill to have the series he did. God knows Hill got destroyed by the Suns in the 2nd round bricking shot after shot. The Mavs game plan wanted the Spurs taking outside shots because they didn't have too many reliable 3 point shooters. George Hill changed that series, but missed all those shots in the 2nd round while the Suns hit all of theirs.


Sup SpursDynasty

"They just shot some shots"

It's not like Kidd left Hill open a few times and then adjusted, he literally kept doing the exact same thing expecting Hill to magically start missing.

[4chan]

Kidd's defense is overrated in general, and Nash's defense isn't nearly as bad as stated IMO

http://images.whatport80.com/images/9/9e/HA_HA_HA,_OH_WOW.jpg

[Greg Oden]

Btw the old PG Hill played in the next round didn't struggle with knowing not to leave an NBA player wide open.

Well, that settles it! Nash's defense > Kidd's

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Is defense and rebounding from the PG position enough for Kidd to outweigh Nash's positives and numerous offensive advantages over him?..

I'd like to think so. Nash had one of the best offensive games for a PG ever, but Kidd was a triple double threat night in and night out. I don't know if I agree that Kidd's defense was overrated. He's obviously a pretty damn good defender in his prime, and I don't think 9 all NBA defensive teams was a mistake. An argument can definitely be made for Nash being the better PG, but Kidd was just a much more versatile player, despite his offensive limitations.

[Goran Dragic]

Well, that settles it! Nash's defense > Kidd's


lol strawman arguments

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Sup SpursDynasty

"They just shot some shots"

It's not like Kidd left Hill open a few times and then adjusted, he literally kept doing the exact same thing expecting Hill to magically start missing.

Kidd is much much slower now too. Not sure what the "SpursDynasty" comment is about. Nash burned Hill way more on the offensive end than defensive. Kidd definitely got murdered on some pick and rolls, but not even Spurs fans expected Hill to have the series he did. He shot lights out.

[ohmwrecker]

Yeah, Jason Kidd developed a great jumper and ability to finish at the rim with either hand, Nash's jumper sucks. Incomplete.

Kidd's also a better defender (in his prime) and a pretty good rebounder for a guard.

[sharpshooter13]

Nash for sure. Much more complete offensive player.

[Greg Oden]

lol strawman arguments

yeah, its' kind of a known specialty of yours :toast

[Goran Dragic]

Kidd is much much slower now too. Not sure what the "SpursDynasty" comment is about. Nash burned Hill way more on the offensive end than defensive. Kidd definitely got murdered on some pick and rolls, but not even Spurs fans expected Hill to have the series he did. He shot lights out.
He shot lights out because he was wide open. If Nash gave him as many wide open shots as Kidd did, the exact same thing would have happened. He was a 40% 3 point shooter during the regular season, those aren't players you just float off and hope miss the open 3's you give them.

[HarlemHeat37]

If you value defense and rebounding more, then I can understand..

If I was picking, I would take running an offense over defense and rebounding from the PG position by an easy margin, I just don't think either one of those aspects is that big of a deal in comparison(defense and rebounding for PG)..

A prime Nash really had no weaknesses offensively..he was arguably the best pick and roll PG of all-time IMO, he ran extremely well in transition too, he could attack the rim off the dribble and finish, he's a legendary shooter from anywhere on the floor, he led elite offenses every year, he was just as good of a passer as Kidd..

If you gave Nash competent defenders behind him(which he has never had), your team defense would be fine IMO..there's nothing you can really do to hide Kidd's offensive flaws IMO, he would still be unable to finish from anywhere on a consistent basis or consistently run a half-court offense..

[Goran Dragic]

Btw the Spursdynasty comment was about you basically saying "George Hill just shot some shots"

[ohmwrecker]

Forget the guy that beats women.

She ate french fries off his plate!

But seriously, how is that relevant to this discussion?

[Goran Dragic]

Tbh I'd take a prime Derek Fisher over either one

[Amuseddaysleeper]

He shot lights out because he was wide open. If Nash gave him as many wide open shots as Kidd did, the exact same thing would have happened. He was a 40% 3 point shooter during the regular season, those aren't players you just float off and hope miss the open 3's you give them.

I hear you man, but I doubt Kidd in all his years in the league would simply decide to just leave Hill open for the hell of it. Hill is much more deadly when he's attacking the rim with his quickness. The Mavs were sagging off a lot of the Spur shooters to collapse the lane. You make it sound like Nash was all over Hill on the defensive end. Hill spent so much energy chasing Nash it also affected his offensive game. I think the Suns did a solid defensive job against the Spurs last playoffs, but I also think Hill was missing a lot of the same shots he was hitting against the Suns. Steve Nash would never be able to "hold" anyone to 37% shooting. He routinely gets burned by other team's PG's, I just think Hill played worse as the playoffs went on.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Btw the Spursdynasty comment was about you basically saying "George Hill just shot some shots"

ahhh, that makes sense :lol

[Amuseddaysleeper]

He shot lights out because he was wide open. If Nash gave him as many wide open shots as Kidd did, the exact same thing would have happened. He was a 40% 3 point shooter during the regular season, those aren't players you just float off and hope miss the open 3's you give them.

I'm gonna need to re-watch some of those Suns/Spurs games to see how open or heavily guarded Hill actually was. I think Channing Frye and Dragic going off for career games fucked with me too much during that series.

[sharpshooter13]

lol someone post under Goran Dragic

[Goran Dragic]

I hear you man, but I doubt Kidd in all his years in the league would simply decide to just leave Hill open for the hell of it. Hill is much more deadly when he's attacking the rim with his quickness. The Mavs were sagging off a lot of the Spur shooters to collapse the lane. You make it sound like Nash was all over Hill on the defensive end. Hill spent so much energy chasing Nash it also affected his offensive game. I think the Suns did a solid defensive job against the Spurs last playoffs, but I also think Hill was missing a lot of the same shots he was hitting against the Suns. Steve Nash would never be able to "hold" anyone to 37% shooting. He routinely gets burned by other team's PG's, I just think Hill played worse as the playoffs went on.
You'd be surprised how Nash can defend when he's putting energy into it, this is the first season Nash had a coach who demanded consistent defense out of him and he played average to above average D all year (and this is not a bias opinion, idk how many rants I had on this site from the 2009 season about how bad his D was).

I'll admit the Suns benefited from Hill putting his name on the scouting report from the Dallas series, but my view is that Kidd let Hill get a great rhythm going. While Nash might have left him a few open shots, he never got a rhythm going in the Suns series and likewise wasn't consistently hitting open shots.

[BUMP]

Nash>Kidd

/thread

/discussion

/anyone who disagrees should kill themselves

[Amuseddaysleeper]

You'd be surprised how Nash can defend when he's putting energy into it, this is the first season Nash had a coach who demanded consistent defense out of him and he played average to above average D all year (and this is not a bias opinion, idk how many rants I had on this site from the 2009 season about how bad his D was).

I'll admit the Suns benefited from Hill putting his name on the scouting report from the Dallas series, but my view is that Kidd let Hill get a great rhythm going. While Nash might have left him a few open shots, he never got a rhythm going in the Suns series and likewise wasn't consistently hitting open shots.

Last thing I will say, that probably helps your argument over mine, is that looking over the box scores from the Suns/Spurs games regular season and playoffs this past season, Hill struggled badly in virtually every game. :depressed

[ohmwrecker]

Hill got pretty much the same looks in the Suns series, he just didn't hit his shots. Nobody did. The big difference is that Hill will expend more energy and effort defending Nash/Kidd and his offense will suffer for it.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Hill got pretty much the same looks in the Suns series, he just didn't hit his shots. Nobody did.

I really wanna download some of the games from the series. It has to be more than coincidence that Hill shoots poorly every time he went up against the Suns. I'm really curious to see what exactly happened.

[HarlemHeat37]

I have the games, I'll check them out in a few hours, it interests me as well, actually..

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I have the games, I'll check them out in a few hours, it interests me as well, actually..

Nice. Let us know what you find :tu

[Greg Oden]

Nash>Kidd

/thread

/discussion

/anyone who disagrees should kill themselves

crofl powder blue

[ohmwrecker]

I really wanna download some of the games from the series. It has to be more than coincidence that Hill shoots poorly every time he went up against the Suns. I'm really curious to see what exactly happened.

I edited my post giving my explanation. Hill will get better at managing his energy and more confidence in his shot, but I think that is the issue.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Hill got pretty much the same looks in the Suns series, he just didn't hit his shots. Nobody did. The big difference is that Hill will expend more energy and effort defending Nash/Kidd and his offense will suffer for it.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well. Without Bowen to cover Nash anymore, Hill had to burn energy on both ends of the court, whereas Kidd only does most of his scoring damage as a stand still 3 point shooter.

[sharpshooter13]

With all his new weapons, Nash should have another great season next year. While it seems Kidd is officially done. Nash has more longevity.