Tennessee politician's remarks on Islam raise uproar

[Mr.Stern]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-07-28-islam-remarks-furor_N.htm?csp=usat.me

Tennessee politician's remarks on Islam raise uproar

NASHVILLE — Comments by Tennessee Lt. Gov. Ron Ramsey suggesting that Islam might be a cult and that Muslims might not qualify for constitutionally guaranteed religious freedoms drew criticism from Islamic groups Tuesday and an eruption of national media attention.
Ramsey, a Republican candidate for governor, said at a mid-July campaign event in Chattanooga that he is "all about freedom of religion," which is guaranteed by the First Amendment.

FAITH & REASON: Church to burn Quran
"But you cross the line when they start trying to bring Sharia law into the United States," he said. "Now you could even argue whether being a Muslim is actually a religion, or is it a nationality, a way of life or cult, whatever you want to call it? We do protect our religions, but at the same time, this is something that we are going to have to face."

There are approximately 1.2 billion Muslims in the world and 7 million in the United States, according to the Council on American-Islamic Relations. Ibrahim Hooper, that organization's national communications director, called Ramsey's comments "part of an unfortunate trend in our society."

"There's a vocal minority promoting the idea that if you can delegitimize Islam, you can deny American Muslims their religious and constitutional rights," Hooper said Tuesday.

The flap, which caught the eye of several national blogs and news organizations Tuesday, comes one week before the Republican gubernatorial primary on Aug. 5 during a Tennessee campaign season in which opinions on Islam have at times dominated the debate.

Opponents of a new mosque planned in Murfreesboro, Tenn., including GOP congressional candidate Lou Ann Zelenik, have said it shouldn't be allowed because they believe Muslims are dangerous. But the land is zoned for religious use, and the building plan is moving forward. Public opposition forced the withdrawal of a rezoning plan for a mosque proposed in Brentwood, however, and an Antioch mosque proposal is facing resistance.

Ramsey's Republican rivals, Knoxville Mayor Bill Haslam and U.S. Rep. Zach Wamp, tried to steer clear of the controversy Tuesday.

"The mayor's faith is very important to him, and he respects the right of others to practice their faith, so long as they are respectful of the communities in which they live and the laws of the land," Haslam campaign spokesman Dave Smith said in an e-mail.

Wamp was "busy with voting" in Washington and unavailable to comment, campaign spokesman Sam Edelen said.

Ramsey clarifies stance@

In a phone interview, Ramsey tried to clarify his stance, saying he has "no problem — and I don't think anyone in this country has a problem — with peace-loving, freedom-loving Muslims that move to this country and assimilate into our society."

"But it's undeniable that there's a portion of Islam that's been co-opted by a radical faction that promotes violence not only against Americans but around the world," he said. "That's what I'm talking about."

But Mwafaq Mohammed, president of the Salahadeen Center of Nashville, said Ramsey is representative of "elements within the two (political) parties that are using ... Islamophobia, the fear, for their own advantage."

"It's election season," Mohammed said. "He doesn't have the facts."

The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life found about 1% of Tennessee's roughly 6.3 million residents, or some 63,000, are Muslim. Mohammed, a Kurd from northern Iraq, said the largest single demographic group among American Muslims, accounting for about one in three, is African-Americans, not immigrants.

Hooper said Muslims "are like every other American." "They want to raise their kids, send them to school, have a job, live a positive life in society," Hooper said. "Mainstream religious and political leaders need to come out and say, 'Look, Islam is the faith of one-fifth of the world's population. Not a cult; it's a real religion. And American Muslims have the same religious and constitutional rights as other citizens,' " Hooper said.

[George Gervin's Afro]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-07-28-islam-remarks-furor_N.htm?csp=usat.me

Tennessee politician's remarks on Islam raise uproar

NASHVILLE — Comments by Tennessee Lt. Gov. Ron Ramsey suggesting that Islam might be a cult and that Muslims might not qualify for constitutionally guaranteed religious freedoms drew criticism from Islamic groups Tuesday and an eruption of national media attention.
Ramsey, a Republican candidate for governor, said at a mid-July campaign event in Chattanooga that he is "all about freedom of religion," which is guaranteed by the First Amendment.

FAITH & REASON: Church to burn Quran
"But you cross the line when they start trying to bring Sharia law into the United States," he said. "Now you could even argue whether being a Muslim is actually a religion, or is it a nationality, a way of life or cult, whatever you want to call it? We do protect our religions, but at the same time, this is something that we are going to have to face."

There are approximately 1.2 billion Muslims in the world and 7 million in the United States, according to the Council on American-Islamic Relations. Ibrahim Hooper, that organization's national communications director, called Ramsey's comments "part of an unfortunate trend in our society."

"There's a vocal minority promoting the idea that if you can delegitimize Islam, you can deny American Muslims their religious and constitutional rights," Hooper said Tuesday.

The flap, which caught the eye of several national blogs and news organizations Tuesday, comes one week before the Republican gubernatorial primary on Aug. 5 during a Tennessee campaign season in which opinions on Islam have at times dominated the debate.

Opponents of a new mosque planned in Murfreesboro, Tenn., including GOP congressional candidate Lou Ann Zelenik, have said it shouldn't be allowed because they believe Muslims are dangerous. But the land is zoned for religious use, and the building plan is moving forward. Public opposition forced the withdrawal of a rezoning plan for a mosque proposed in Brentwood, however, and an Antioch mosque proposal is facing resistance.

Ramsey's Republican rivals, Knoxville Mayor Bill Haslam and U.S. Rep. Zach Wamp, tried to steer clear of the controversy Tuesday.

"The mayor's faith is very important to him, and he respects the right of others to practice their faith, so long as they are respectful of the communities in which they live and the laws of the land," Haslam campaign spokesman Dave Smith said in an e-mail.

Wamp was "busy with voting" in Washington and unavailable to comment, campaign spokesman Sam Edelen said.

Ramsey clarifies stance@

In a phone interview, Ramsey tried to clarify his stance, saying he has "no problem — and I don't think anyone in this country has a problem — with peace-loving, freedom-loving Muslims that move to this country and assimilate into our society."

"But it's undeniable that there's a portion of Islam that's been co-opted by a radical faction that promotes violence not only against Americans but around the world," he said. "That's what I'm talking about."

But Mwafaq Mohammed, president of the Salahadeen Center of Nashville, said Ramsey is representative of "elements within the two (political) parties that are using ... Islamophobia, the fear, for their own advantage."

"It's election season," Mohammed said. "He doesn't have the facts."

The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life found about 1% of Tennessee's roughly 6.3 million residents, or some 63,000, are Muslim. Mohammed, a Kurd from northern Iraq, said the largest single demographic group among American Muslims, accounting for about one in three, is African-Americans, not immigrants.

Hooper said Muslims "are like every other American." "They want to raise their kids, send them to school, have a job, live a positive life in society," Hooper said. "Mainstream religious and political leaders need to come out and say, 'Look, Islam is the faith of one-fifth of the world's population. Not a cult; it's a real religion. And American Muslims have the same religious and constitutional rights as other citizens,' " Hooper said.



you guys never surprise me anymore.... This guy must be a tea pottier..

[clambake]

all religions are cults.....to some extent.

[boutons_deux]

But if non-Christians called all of Christianity a "cult", illegitimate religion, because of fringe freaks like LDS/Mormon weirdos, or Phelps weirdos, or Creationists, or Bible iteralists, or End Timers, the Christians would be in an "uproar". Hypocrites.

[CosmicCowboy]

you guys never surprise me anymore.... This guy must be a tea pottier..

So there isn't a radical, almost cult like minority of Islam that promotes Sharia law and death to all non-believers?

Radical Islam is just an invention of the tea party?

Your constant vomit of ignorance, although amusing at times is getting rather tedious.

[TeyshaBlue]

all religions are cults.....to some extent.

I was going to say the same thing..only reversed. All cults are religions to some extent.:lol:toast

[TeyshaBlue]

But if non-Christians called all of Christianity a "cult", illegitimate religion, because of fringe freaks like LDS/Mormon weirdos, or Phelps weirdos, or Creationists, or Bible iteralists, or End Timers, the Christians would be in an "uproar". Hypocrites.

Who says Christians are not in a uproar over this? I rather suspect some are. It's not likely you'd notice anyway.:rolleyes Hypocrite much? .075 seconds with Google.

http://chuckcurrie.blogs.com/chuck_currie/2010/07/tennessee-lt-governor-islam-a-cult-might-not-be-protected-under-constitution.html

Tennessee Lt. Governor: Islam A Cult; Might Not Be Protected Under Constitution
How do we combat such bigotry?

Tennessee Lt. Gov. Ron Ramsey, currently running third in the state's Republican gubernatorial primary race, says he's not sure if Constitutional guarantees of freedom of religion apply to the followers of the world's second-largest faith, Islam.

At a recent event in Hamilton County, Ramsey was asked by a man in the audience about the "threat that's invading our country from the Muslims." Ramsey proclaimed his support for the Constitution and the whole "Congress shall make no law" thing when it comes to religion. But he also said that Islam, arguably, is less a faith than it is a "cult."

"Now, you could even argue whether being a Muslim is actually a religion, or is it a nationality, way of life, cult whatever you want to call it," Ramsey said. "Now certainly we do protect our religions, but at the same time this is something we are going to have to face."


Ramsey went on to say:

"It's time for American Muslims who love this country to publicly renounce violent jihadism...
Can this guy not read? The reality is that American Muslims have consistently condemned violent extremism within Islam.
Full story.

Republican leaders in Tennessee are using the proposed construction of a Muslim community center as a campaign issue.

Republican congressional candidate Lou Ann Zelenik has said:
"Until the American Muslim community find it in their hearts to separate themselves from their evil, radical counterparts, to condemn those who want to destroy our civilization and will fight against them, we are not obligated to open our society to any of them."
President George W. Bush visited the Islamic Center of Washington just a week after September 11th and told those gathered:
Thank you all very much for your hospitality. We've just had a -- wide-ranging discussions on the matter at hand. Like the good folks standing with me, the American people were appalled and outraged at last Tuesday's attacks. And so were Muslims all across the world. Both Americans and Muslim friends and citizens, tax-paying citizens, and Muslims in nations were just appalled and could not believe what we saw on our TV screens.
These acts of violence against innocents violate the fundamental tenets of the Islamic faith. And it's important for my fellow Americans to understand that.
The English translation is not as eloquent as the original Arabic, but let me quote from the Koran, itself: In the long run, evil in the extreme will be the end of those who do evil. For that they rejected the signs of Allah and held them up to ridicule.
The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don't represent peace. They represent evil and war.
When we think of Islam we think of a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world. Billions of people find comfort and solace and peace. And that's made brothers and sisters out of every race -- out of every race.
America counts millions of Muslims amongst our citizens, and Muslims make an incredibly valuable contribution to our country. Muslims are doctors, lawyers, law professors, members of the military, entrepreneurs, shopkeepers, moms and dads. And they need to be treated with respect. In our anger and emotion, our fellow Americans must treat each other with respect.
Women who cover their heads in this country must feel comfortable going outside their homes. Moms who wear cover must be not intimidated in America. That's not the America I know. That's not the America I value.
There was a lot that I didn't like about George W. Bush's presidency but he correctly went out of his way to show respect for American Muslims.

Bigotry - against people people of color, against gays and lesbians, against women, against non-Christians - has been used to divide the American people for too long. What is happening in Tennessee is an example of the worst kind of bigotry and as a Christian I denounce it and pray that those engaging in such behavior repent of their sins and seek ways this campaign season to bring reconciliation to the people of our nation. Religious bigotry is, frankly, un-American.

[George Gervin's Afro]

So there isn't a radical, almost cult like minority of Islam that promotes Sharia law and death to all non-believers?

Radical Islam is just an invention of the tea party?

Your constant vomit of ignorance, although amusing at times is getting rather tedious.


Comments by Tennessee Lt. Gov. Ron Ramsey suggesting that Islam might be a cult and that Muslims might not qualify for constitutionally guaranteed religious freedoms drew criticism from Islamic groups Tuesday and an eruption of national media attention.


I'd ignore the second part of the sentence also. I've come to expect a comlete lack of intellectual honesty from you and this is yet another example of it...

he's an idiot which I guess proves that birds of a feather flock together..

[CosmicCowboy]

I'd ignore the second part of the sentence also. I've come to expect a comlete lack of intellectual honesty from you and this is yet another example of it...

he's an idiot which I guess proves that birds of a feather flock together..

Speaking of leaving part out...:lmao

did you read this part?


and I don't think anyone in this country has a problem — with peace-loving, freedom-loving Muslims that move to this country and assimilate into our society."

"But it's undeniable that there's a portion of Islam that's been co-opted by a radical faction that promotes violence not only against Americans but around the world," he said. "That's what I'm talking about."

[CosmicCowboy]

Do you realize that some mosques in the United States run by radical fundamentalists (and protected under US religious freedom laws) have harbored and directed domestic terrorists?

[TeyshaBlue]

Do you realize that some mosques in the United States run by radical fundamentalists (and protected under US religious freedom laws) have harbored and directed domestic terrorists?

Not unlike Phelps and his ilk. I hate it. I also acknowledge that is an artifact of freedom.

[CosmicCowboy]

BTW, let me make it perfectly clear that I do not advocate denying followers of Islam freedom of religion the the United States.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Speaking of leaving part out...:lmao

did you read this part?

so you are ok with denying people the right to practice their religion:toast

USA USA USA



There is a part of the Islamic faith who want to kill us? Since when?I had no idea..:rolleyes

[George Gervin's Afro]

BTW, let me make it perfectly clear that I do not advocate denying followers of Islam freedom of religion the the United States.

so then you also have the same problem that I did with his statement..glad you finally came around..

[CosmicCowboy]

so then you also have the same problem that I did with his statement..glad you finally came around..

I think he clarified his position and it's a non-issue.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I think he clarified his position and it's a non-issue.

So now as long as a politician clarifies misstatement then it becomes a moot issue...

[CosmicCowboy]

So now as long as a politician clarifies misstatement then it becomes a moot issue...

Obama seems to think so. "Beer summit" ring a bell?

This guy is some nobody running third in a state race. You are trying to paint an entire party/group with a pretty damn narrow brush.

[Spurminator]

I don't really have a problem with his comments except for this one, which is where he insults all Muslims...


"Now you could even argue whether being a Muslim is actually a religion, or is it a nationality, a way of life or cult, whatever you want to call it? We do protect our religions, but at the same time, this is something that we are going to have to face."

It's perfectly reasonable to criticize him based on this sentence alone until he retracts it.

[in2deep]

what a stupid fuck

[boutons_deux]

Tennessee? This guy is sending out Christian supremacy dog whistles to his "Christian" red-state hicks and hillbillies.

[ChumpDumper]

I think he clarified his position and it's a non-issue.I don't think he clarified anything at all. Sure he ran away from the most controversial things he said, but why did he say them in the first place if he didn't believe them?

[CosmicCowboy]

I don't think he clarified anything at all. Sure he ran away from the most controversial things he said, but why did he say them in the first place if he didn't believe them?

I believe the new proper progressive terminology for what happened is that it was a "teachable moment".

[boutons_deux]

Like Rand Paul's "teachable moment" of being taught not to speak his racist mind about approving businesses discriminating now that he's on the national stage.

[CosmicCowboy]

Like Rand Paul's "teachable moment" of being taught not to speak his racist mind about approving businesses discriminating now that he's on the national stage.

I believe your deity Obama coined that phrase originally.

[LnGrrrR]

The biggest problem I have is the whole "taking away their religious freedoms" statement. Very unconservative.

[ChumpDumper]

I believe the new proper progressive terminology for what happened is that it was a "teachable moment".But he didn't explain his original statement at all -- he simply said something else.

[DarrinS]

Next cover of Time magazine.

http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2010/1007/time_cover_0809.jpg

[Winehole23]

nm

[ChumpDumper]

Next cover of Time magazine.Why did you post that?

[CosmicCowboy]

Did she go to Michael Jacksons plastic surgeon?

[boutons_deux]

In Africa, girls get their clits sliced off, their vaginas sewn shut, their tits ironed flat so they look less attractive, so they won't get raped.

Why aren't we invading Africa to stop that?

I'm sure the MIC pays Time $Ms/year in advertising. Gotta keep sucking down those taxdollars into the MIC maw.

why doesn't Time run a cover(s) with kids maimed by US soldiers?

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/data/upimages/attiullah_shot_by_us_troops.jpg

[boutons_deux]

Another TN candidate:

http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/07/29/hilarious-video-vote-for-basil-marceaux-for-governor-of-tennessee/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=alternet#

[bigzak25]

All I have to say on this is that Muhammad was either the Anti-Christ or THE false prophet.

I'm not sure which.

He united the Muslims under Allah through the false pretense of 'submission to God' instead of 'servitude to God' and through war, and the threat of war and by marrying the daughters of those that opposed him.

He either received his messages from the Beast, or the servants of the Beast, OR, he twisted the message to suit his own selfish desires.

It is because of Muhammad that the Islamic religion is one of war for unity under Allah, instead of peace for unity under God.

Here is his seal...I see that a pentagram can be made within this as well. I also see a black snake. Surely not the signs of our One True and Loving God.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Muhammad_callig.gif

[ChumpDumper]

Is there anything you can't make a pentagram out of?

[LnGrrrR]

All I have to say on this is that Muhammad was either the Anti-Christ or THE false prophet.

I'm not sure which.

He united the Muslims under Allah through the false pretense of 'submission to God' instead of 'servitude to God' and through war, and the threat of war and by marrying the daughters of those that opposed him.

He either received his messages from the Beast, or the servants of the Beast, OR, he twisted the message to suit his own selfish desires.

It is because of Muhammad that the Islamic religion is one of war for unity under Allah, instead of peace for unity under God.

Here is his seal...I see that a pentagram can be made within this as well. I also see a black snake. Surely not the signs of our One True and Loving God.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Muhammad_callig.gif

Yup, because Christians have made sure never to war under God's name. :rolleyes

[TheSullyMonster]

Yup, because Christians have made sure never to war under God's name. :rolleyes

Of course not.:nope

Moses was peaceful, too.:toast

[bigzak25]

Yup, because Christians have made sure never to war under God's name. :rolleyes


I tell you this, True Christians have never sought out war in God's name, other than to liberate from tyranny...in which case, they are not seeking out war, they are seeking out peace and freedom of the people.

For those that seek out war in God's name are serving the wrong god.

I believe the True Islam is to unite under Allah through any means necessary.

While True Christianity is to unite under God through peace, faith, and love.

If I am wrong about Islam, then please educate me. I only have a cursory understanding of it and its roots.

[CosmicCowboy]

I tell you this, True Christians have never sought out war in God's name, other than to liberate from tyranny...in which case, they are not seeking out war, they are seeking out peace and freedom of the people.

For those that seek out war in God's name are serving the wrong god.

I believe the True Islam is to unite under Allah through any means necessary.

While True Christianity is to unite under God through peace, faith, and love.

If I am wrong about Islam, then please educate me. I only have a cursory understanding of it and its roots.


Good God Zak. You are gonna get struck by lightning typing shit like that. You need to brush up on your history. Does 'The Crusades" ring a bell with you?

[ChuckD]

But if non-Christians called all of Christianity a "cult", illegitimate religion, because of fringe freaks like LDS/Mormon weirdos, or Phelps weirdos, or Creationists, or Bible iteralists, or End Timers, the Christians would be in an "uproar". Hypocrites.

Haven't agreed with boutons in ages, but...this. Xtians are SO ready to jettison their weirdos, but insist on painting all of Islam with one broad brush.

Regarding that idiot preacher that is going to burn the Koran on 9/11, do you think that only oddball extreme Xtians would be offended if some Muslims got together and burned the bible?

[bigzak25]

Originally Posted by bigzak25 View Post

I tell you this, True Christians have never sought out war in God's name, other than to liberate from tyranny...in which case, they are not seeking out war, they are seeking out peace and freedom of the people.

For those that seek out war in God's name are serving the wrong god.

I believe the True Islam is to unite under Allah through any means necessary.

While True Christianity is to unite under God through peace, faith, and love.

If I am wrong about Islam, then please educate me. I only have a cursory understanding of it and its roots.

Good God Zak. You are gonna get struck by lightning typing shit like that. You need to brush up on your history. Does 'The Crusades" ring a bell with you?

I am aware of the Crusades, but I'm sure I can learn more.

I stand by what I said, as those were not True Christians and they were in fact, serving the wrong god if they were trying to get others to convert to Christianity by the use of force. The Crusades imo, which is admittedly a bit ignorant at this point, as I have not read up on the subject, but imo, the Crusades were more about serving man's Ego than they were about bringing others to Christianity.

If you are killing in the name of God, then you are serving the wrong god.

That is not to say that I don't believe that those that wish to destroy should be destroyed. I think that all that kill in the name of God are lost.

If they only realized their True Guide...Jesus, then the world would be a different place.

[CosmicCowboy]

I am aware of the Crusades, but I'm sure I can learn more.

I stand by what I said, as those were not True Christians and they were in fact, serving the wrong god if they were trying to get others to convert to Christianity by the use of force. The Crusades imo, which is admittedly a bit ignorant at this point, as I have not read up on the subject, but imo, the Crusades were more about serving man's Ego than they were about bringing others to Christianity.

If you are killing in the name of God, then you are serving the wrong god.

That is not to say that I don't believe that those that wish to destroy should be destroyed. I think that all that kill in the name of God are lost.

If they only realized their True Guide...Jesus, then the world would be a different place.

Are you saying that there is no justification for violence against those that disagree with you on religion/politics if you believe in Jesus/God?

[bigzak25]

Are you saying that there is no justification for violence against those that disagree with you on religion/politics if you believe in Jesus/God?


Yes, there is no justification for violence against those that do not believe as I do.

I feel the only justification for violence is to rid the world of those that in my opinion are dead already. The dictators that are in power that oppress their own people with violence. The criminal warlords that are in power throughout the world that are perpetrating genocide.

Those groups, those power mongers...I support our troops 100% to rid the world of.

However, just because someone or some group does not believe as I do...as long as they have peaceful beliefs, and not violent ones...then I have no problem at all with live and let live.

[CosmicCowboy]

So, your God as you know him is a "Do as I say, not as I do" kind of god?

Since the dawn of recorded Christian History your god has whacked infidels that did not agree with him politically/religiously.

If you don't understand and accept that I suggest you re-read Genesis and Exodus.

[LnGrrrR]

Bigzak, look up the "No true Scotsman" logical fallacy. That will tell you why your logic is incorrect.

[Trainwreck2100]

Good God Zak. You are gonna get struck by lightning typing shit like that. You need to brush up on your history. Does 'The Crusades" ring a bell with you?

The call to arms came from the pope after more fundamentalist muslims took over from alright muslims and started being dicks to nonmuslims. Its basically the same as it is now. Overeactive dicks ruining the world for everyone else. The inquisition OTOH

[CosmicCowboy]

The call to arms came from the pope after more fundamentalist muslims took over from alright muslims and started being dicks to nonmuslims. Its basically the same as it is now. Overeactive dicks ruining the world for everyone else. The inquisition OTOH

Yeah, I didn't want to completely blow his mind with The Inquisition. What little he has left is apparently quite fragile.

[bigzak25]

So, your God as you know him is a "Do as I say, not as I do" kind of god?

Since the dawn of recorded Christian History your god has whacked infidels that did not agree with him politically/religiously.

If you don't understand and accept that I suggest you re-read Genesis and Exodus.


No, not my God. Not our God.

Our God is THE ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD.

A peaceful, loving, and merciful God.

The god of wrath. The god of unforgiving judgment. The god of vengeance.
That is Satan. He is a masterful deceiver.

I have not read the Old Testament. I have plans to once I finish the new Testament. But I feel I will be able to distinguish which was which by their actions.

Satan has been playing this game to win and condemn us all along with him since the beginning of time as we know it.

I am here to expose Satan for the liar he is. He is a wannabe god.

I feel I will face him one day and do my part to cast him down to hell for all eternity.

But until that day, I will help to expose him for all of us true believers to see with eyes wide open.

[bigzak25]

Bigzak, look up the "No true Scotsman" logical fallacy. That will tell you why your logic is incorrect.

I will look this up as you suggest. But my logic is not incorrect...for it is driven by my heart...which is becoming closer to true love as each day passes.

[LnGrrrR]

I will look this up as you suggest. But my logic is not incorrect...for it is driven by my heart...which is becoming closer to true love as each day passes.

Technically, logic is not about heart, but brains. :) Check up on that fallacy and you'll see what we're getting at.

[Winehole23]

Moses was peaceful, too.:toastCf. Genesis 32:27.

[Winehole23]

...

[bigzak25]

Technically, logic is not about heart, but brains. :) Check up on that fallacy and you'll see what we're getting at.


You know, Spock's greatest moment was when he sacrificed himself to fix the nuclear drive.

You can say he was all about logic. But his heart drove his logic that day.

The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few...or the one.

There's someone else that comes to mind that thought exactly that way.

Can you guess who I'm thinking of?

I am amused and rather enjoy the barbs that Cosmic and others send my way about me having a weak or fragile mind.

I am complimented by it, for my mind is a tool, neither weak, nor strong.

It is either functioning or not functioning.

And mine is functioning at a rather high level these days.

Here is what Wiki had about the No True Scotsman 'logical fallacy':

Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again." Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing." The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsman would do such a thing."
—Antony Flew, Thinking About Thinking (1975)


I see the point of what you are trying to say, but your comparison to my logic is flawed. For a true Scotsman is determined from the point of view of they eye of the beholder. While a True Christian...well, Jesus showed us all what it was to be one. There is no moving target when it comes to who represents the Truest of all Christians. It's in the name. Go pick up the New Testament and you'll see what I'm getting at. :toast

[CosmicCowboy]

So Zak...was your God 'born again" from the Old Testament to the New Testament?

Did your God change?

Or did the way the mortal people that wrote the books in the bible change?

I appreciate that the "New Zack" is not as self destructive as the old Zack. I'm happy for you. Seriously.

I just hope you eventually find a middle ground that you can live with.

[bigzak25]

So Zak...was your God 'born again" from the Old Testament to the New Testament?

Did your God change?

Or did the way the mortal people that wrote the books in the bible change?

I appreciate that the "New Zack" is not as self destructive as the old Zack. I'm happy for you. Seriously.

I just hope you eventually find a middle ground that you can live with.

Like I said Big Dawg, I have to read the Old Testament before I can really comment on it, but my theories at this point are that Satan is playing God in more than one instance in the Old Testament...and fooling many along the way.

[CosmicCowboy]

Like I said Big Dawg, I have to read the Old Testament before I can really comment on it, but my theories at this point are that Satan is playing God in more than one instance in the Old Testament...and fooling many along the way.

Zak, you really need to read your bible from start to finish to get context.

[fraga]

One day...you will all bow before me...

http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster.jpg

[bigzak25]

Zak, you really need to read your bible from start to finish to get context.


I am definitely in agreement with you Cosmic. :toast

[LnGrrrR]

I've read the Old Testament, New Testament, and a few other religious works. I'm still an atheist, though. :)

[bigzak25]

I've read the Old Testament, New Testament, and a few other religious works. I'm still an atheist, though. :)


Do you believe in true love?

[bigzak25]

If so can you prove it exists?

[LnGrrrR]

One day...you will all bow before me...

http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster.jpg

Bless his Noodly Appendages.

[LnGrrrR]

Like I said Big Dawg, I have to read the Old Testament before I can really comment on it, but my theories at this point are that Satan is playing God in more than one instance in the Old Testament...and fooling many along the way.

How do you know he's not playing God in the NT?

[bigzak25]

How do you know he's not playing God in the NT?


Because the New Testament is about his defeat.

Satan is a master deceiver, but he won't work against himself.

Jesus was and is True Love, as is His Father, Our God. Perfection at its finest.


Satan is wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony.

[LnGrrrR]

Because the New Testament is about his defeat.

Satan is a master deceiver, but he won't work against himself.

Jesus was and is True Love, as is His Father, Our God. Perfection at its finest.


Satan is wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony.

How do you know Satan doesn't want you to think he was defeated, to ease your guard?

Also, AFAIK, those seven deadly sins aren't actually in the Bible.

[Winehole23]

Development of the Traditional Seven Sins

The modern concept of the Seven Deadly Sins is linked to the works of the 4th century monk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monk) Evagrius Ponticus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evagrius_Ponticus), who listed eight evil thoughts in Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) as follows:[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins#cite_note-Evagrio_Pontico.2C.27.27Gli_Otto_Spiriti_Malvagi.2 7.27.2C_trans._Felice_Comello.2C_Pratiche_Editrice .2C_Parma.2C_1990.2C_p.11-12.-3)


They were translated into the Latin of Roman Catholic spiritual pietas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietas_%28virtue%29) (or Catholic devotions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_devotions)), as follows:[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins#cite_note-Refoule.2C_1967-4)


Gula (gluttony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluttony))
Fornicatio (fornication, lust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lust))
Avaritia (avarice/greed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins#Greed))
Tristitia (sorrow/despair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despair))
Ira (wrath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrath))
Acedia (acedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acedia))
Vanagloria (vainglory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vainglory))
Superbia (hubris, pride (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride))

These 'evil thoughts' can be broken down into three groups:[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins#cite_note-Refoule.2C_1967-4)


lustful appetite (Gluttony, Fornication, and Avarice)
irascibility (Anger)
intellect (Vainglory, Sorrow, Pride, and Discouragement)

In AD 590, some years after Evagrius, Pope Gregory I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Gregory_I) revised this list to form the more common Seven Deadly Sins, by folding sorrow/despair into acedia, vainglory into pride, and adding extravagance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extravagance) and envy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Envy), while removing fornication from the list. In the order used by both Pope Gregory and by Dante Alighieri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante_Alighieri) in his epic poem The Divine Comedy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Divine_Comedy), the seven deadly sins are as follows:


luxuria (extravagance)
gula (gluttony)
avaritia (avarice/greed)
acedia (acedia/discouragement)
ira (wrath)
invidia (envy)
superbia (pride)

The identification and definition of the seven deadly sins over their history has been a fluid process and the idea of what each of the seven actually encompasses has evolved over time. Additionally, as a result of semantic change (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_change):


Lust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lust) was substituted for luxuria in all but name
socordia (sloth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloth_%28deadly_sin%29)) was substituted for acedia

It is this revised list that Dante uses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins

[TeyshaBlue]

I think Heinlien has it right.

http://www.gotterdammerung.org/books/robert-heinlein/job-a-comedy-of-justice.html

[bigzak25]

How do you know Satan doesn't want you to think he was defeated, to ease your guard?

Also, AFAIK, those seven deadly sins aren't actually in the Bible.


Because only Jesus can claim victory at this point.

He just showed us the way.

We all have to walk the walk in order to claim victory for ourselves in God's name and for God's honor.

The Victory of Jesus Christ over Satan was not for us to let our guard down, but for us to learn how to have our guard up.

You are probably right about the seven sins not being in the bible, I just thought they would be a good description of what I feel Satan is.

However, if I had to describe Satan in one word, I'd use the word selfish.

[Winehole23]

I think Heinlien has it right.

http://www.gotterdammerung.org/books/robert-heinlein/job-a-comedy-of-justice.html


Is this hell? Or is it Texas?:lol

[LnGrrrR]

Because only Jesus can claim victory at this point.

He just showed us the way.

We all have to walk the walk in order to claim victory for ourselves in God's name and for God's honor.

The Victory of Jesus Christ over Satan was not for us to let our guard down, but for us to learn how to have our guard up.

You are probably right about the seven sins not being in the bible, I just thought they would be a good description of what I feel Satan is.

However, if I had to describe Satan in one word, I'd use the word selfish.

What if that's just what Satan wanted you to think? :) Sure, you may be able to tell in your heart, but can you logically say, for sure, you know who was behind the Bible?

Don't get me wrong; I think that Jesus is a great role model. I just don't believe he was a saviour, anymore than Gandhi or other inspirational leaders.

[LnGrrrR]

I'll have to check out that book; I'm a big fan of Heinlein. I remember a CMSgt once did a weekly meeting, using Starship Troopers as a basis for military lessons. Pretty interesting.

[bigzak25]

What if that's just what Satan wanted you to think? :) Sure, you may be able to tell in your heart, but can you logically say, for sure, you know who was behind the Bible?

Don't get me wrong; I think that Jesus is a great role model. I just don't believe he was a savior, anymore than Gandhi or other inspirational leaders.

Believing who was behind the Old Testament vs who was behind the New Testament is a slightly different discussion than believing Jesus Christ was the Son of our one and only True God.


Satan wants us to think as you do, that Jesus was no savior.

The Islam religion and Jewish religion both reject Jesus.

The are perpetually at war. This is no coincidence.

[Wild Cobra]

The Islam religion and Jewish religion both reject Jesus.

Now I'm not certain, but the Jews are the ones who reject Jesus. The Koran acknowledges Jesus, but he is the past, and Mohammad is the current profit.

[LnGrrrR]

Believing who was behind the Old Testament vs who was behind the New Testament is a slightly different discussion than believing Jesus Christ was the Son of our one and only True God.


Satan wants us to think as you do, that Jesus was no savior.

The Islam religion and Jewish religion both reject Jesus.

The are perpetually at war. This is no coincidence.

Our nation is predominately Christian, and we are currently waging wars in two countries that are predominantly Muslim.

In fact, over the last half of the last century, America has been in more wars than any other country. Why are we, a predominately Christian nation, perpetually at war?

[LnGrrrR]

Satan wants us to think as you do, that Jesus was no savior.


How do you know what Satan wants you to think? Have you talked with him? :)

[bigzak25]

Sorry Cobra, to clarify, I meant they both reject Jesus as the Resurrected Son of God.

[bigzak25]

Our nation is predominately Christian, and we are currently waging wars in two countries that are predominantly Muslim.

In fact, over the last half of the last century, America has been in more wars than any other country. Why are we, a predominately Christian nation, perpetually at war?



As many wise men have said, we should not judge by the color of our skin, but by the content of our character.

When you say our nation is predominately Christian, you are speaking of the color of the skin (metaphorically) that many people choose to wear.

However, a Christian is only a Christian if they walk the Christian walk.

They are not a Christian just by saying they are. Talk is cheap.

[bigzak25]

How do you know what Satan wants you to think? Have you talked with him? :)


I don't know all of Satan's tricks and I do not claim to.

But I feel we all have the opportunity to truly know Jesus Christ and his teachings.


If you are asking if I have danced with the Devil, then I can assure you that I have. But no more. I rebuke Satan in the name of God. :toast

[Winehole23]

How do you know what Satan wants you to think? Have you talked with him? :)Typically you just take whatever feels good, like Augustine's infamous orchard raid (http://www.jstor.org/pss/20163872), and generalize from that.

[Wild Cobra]

How do you know what Satan wants you to think? Have you talked with him? :)
It wouldn't surprise me.

[Wild Cobra]

Sorry Cobra, to clarify, I meant they both reject Jesus as the Resurrected Son of God.
OK, that I'll accept.

[Marcus Bryant]

Reelidgeus feedom is fer duh reel Muricans.

[LnGrrrR]

I don't know all of Satan's tricks and I do not claim to.

Rebuking Satan is fine and all. However, I wouldn't claim that other religions are flawed. Isn't one supposed to humble themselves before God?

Don't you think it would be a great trick if Satan was able to put entire peoples at war just by slightly changing the apparent savior, and a few rules, between three large religions that basically say the same thing?

I'd be happy if more people professed to follow Christ's "turn the other cheek" philosophy, as well as his words of helping your fellow man.

[bigzak25]

Rebuking Satan is fine and all. However, I wouldn't claim that other religions are flawed. Isn't one supposed to humble themselves before God?

Exactly my point. These warring nations, who should humble themselves before God, are not doing so.


Don't you think it would be a great trick if Satan was able to put entire peoples at war just by slightly changing the apparent savior, and a few rules, between three large religions that basically say the same thing?

I see nothing great about the deceptions of Satan.


I'd be happy if more people professed to follow Christ's "turn the other cheek" philosophy, as well as his words of helping your fellow man.

agreed, but it's not about professing it, it's about living it. :toast