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Winehole23
07-30-2010, 09:46 AM
Taxes should rise for most Americans

Jul 29, 2010 09:58 EDT



The fight over whether to let tax cuts enacted under George W. Bush expire at the end of 2010 is being waged in terms of political sloganeering — “taxes are an outrage” versus “the rich must pay.” (http://blogs.reuters.com/deep-pocket/2010/07/28/americans-are-divided-over-bush-tax-cuts/)

(http://blogs.reuters.com/deep-pocket/2010/07/28/americans-are-divided-over-bush-tax-cuts/)
Here’s the uncomfortable point few want to face: even if the rich do get hit with a federal income tax increase, the middle class must bear much of the cost of fixing America’s budget-deficit mess. Taxes should rise, not just for the rich, but for most Americans.


The current fiscal year federal deficit is running at $1.4 trillion; the outlook is for year after year of very high deficits (http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/115xx/doc11579/Summary_LTBO.pdf), and this is before the Baby Boomers retire. Adjusting to today’s dollars, the United States has incurred more debt in the last decade then during the entire combined previous 211 years of the republic’s existence. Unless economic growth rises to about five percent per year and stays there for some time — which is possible, but not likely — tax increases and benefit cuts are the only ways to address record debt.


We’d all like to think that soaking the rich solves the problem, but it doesn’t. Bush’s tax cuts, due to expire on December 31, cut the federal income tax top rate to 36 percent from 40 percent. Suppose the top rate is allowed to return to 40 percent, as your columnist thinks it should. Other things being equal, that would raise federal revenues about $65 billion per annum. While we’re at it, let’s shave 10 percent off the $549 billion fiscal 2011 defense budget request, saving another $55 billion.


Now we’ve taken the only steps that are politically palatable — taxed the rich, cut the Pentagon. That reduces the deficit for fiscal 2011 by about $120 billion, of a projected $1.1 trillion deficit. The deficit would still be about a trillion dollars – just five years ago, this would have been considered an unthinkable level of debt.


Run the federal income tax rate up to 50 percent for top earners — anything more is confiscatory, considering state and local taxes must be added — and the rich will pay another $200 billion or so next year. That’s still not enough to narrow the deficit.


What happens if most George W. Bush tax cuts for the middle class are allowed to expire? The middle class pays about $150 billion more next year. All three bullets must be bitten — soak the rich, increase taxes on the middle class and cut the Pentagon — to reduce the 2011 deficit by close to half. (Unless the economy really starts to roar, in which case higher revenues come to the rescue.)


Tea Party types may shake their fists about federal taxes, and ice-cream sellers may ask Joe Biden why taxes haven’t been cut (http://theweek.com/article/index/204542/bidens-smartass-jibe) — but the reality is that federal income taxes fell dramatically during the last decade. Americans appear to believe taxes are onerously high. Actually, taxes are down, for almost everyone. Rising national debt links more closely to tax cuts than to federal spending, since spending actually has gone down slightly in recent months (http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/115xx/doc11526/JuneMBRJuly7.pdf), as well.


Bush’s tax cuts reduced the federal income tax rates paid by the middle class by three percent, to 25 percent from 28 percent, for most middle class filers. Bush’s cuts essentially ended federal income taxes for anyone earning less than $68,000, which is roughly the median household income — people earning less than $68,000 still pay Social Security and Medicare taxes — and also made credits for dependents and childcare more generous, which helps average people more than it helps the affluent.


Americans want to believe we are being clobbered, just clobbered, by onerous taxes. Here’s the comparison to the rest of the world (http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numbers/international.cfm) — U.S. taxes are relatively low. Low taxes are wonderful, and a reason the United States is strong and free. Low taxes also are a reason the national debt is at runaway levels.


The middle class must not be “sacrosanct” when it comes to deficit reduction, House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer said last month at a meeting of Third Way (http://www.thirdway.org/events/26). Hoyer is the very embodiment of establishment Democratic thinking, while Third Way (http://www.thirdway.org/) is rapidly emerging as Washington’s most important beyond-ideology think tank. If getting past traditional soak-the-rich rhetoric is what’s on the table at such a meeting, then the political landscape may be shifting.


As the Bush tax cuts for the well-to-do expire, somewhat higher taxes for the middle class are needed, too. Unless you’d rather reduce Social Security benefits, of course.
http://blogs.reuters.com/gregg-easterbrook/2010/07/29/taxes-should-rise-for-most-americans/

spursncowboys
07-30-2010, 09:56 AM
a comment from the article

Taxes will absolutely have to rise, and services will absolutely have to be cut. I think there are some simple ways to close some of the gaps, but simple doesn’t at all mean easy.
1. Eliminate all government subsidies, period. This includes all agricultural subsidies, mining, energy, lumber, etc. All of it has to go – including the mortgage interest deduction which is a massive subsidy in and of itself.
2. Reduce the corporate tax rate from 35% to 10%. At the same time, eliminate the tax code complexity that allows the vast majority of profitable companies to pay no tax or even receive a benefit from the government.
3. Cut the defense budget to no more than $200 billion. Walk away from Afghanistan – we lost, get over it – and walk away from Iraq. Close all but a handful of foreign bases, keeping only those bases that allow the Navy to dominate the oceans.
4. Reduce personal income tax rates and move to a graduated flat tax. The complexity of the various tax codes is a hidden subsidy for the accounting industry, and is thus another economic stimulus program that needs to go. Tax incomes below a certain threshold at 5%, tax the top earners at 28%, with three or four steps between.
5. Create a 3% VAT and a tariff system, taxing goods made in countries that cheat in terms of world trade (yes, I’m talking about China) at 150% to 500% of nominal price.
This doesn’t solve all, or even most of our problems, but it’s a start.

clambake
07-30-2010, 09:59 AM
would you like to comment about this comment?

spursncowboys
07-30-2010, 10:00 AM
I'm not as exteme of cutting the def budget. I think for this to work, both sides need to cut their bases. raising taxes and taking most of the budget cuts on defense will just make this more partisan.
To start, Congress needs to have a REAL way of paying for any spending. Instead of saying they will do it after the program they are voting for at the present.

Nice article. Would love for people who say we aren't getting taxed enough to include all the taxes people pay, instead of analyzing one by itself and being as general as possible.

coyotes_geek
07-30-2010, 10:02 AM
The middle class must not be “sacrosanct” when it comes to deficit reduction

Has the middle class ever been "sacrosanct"? Not IMO.

clambake
07-30-2010, 10:04 AM
#2 is interesting, wouldn't you say?

Winehole23
07-30-2010, 10:05 AM
Has the middle class ever been "sacrosanct"? Of course not, but the obsequiousness of both parties toward it, is real.

CosmicCowboy
07-30-2010, 10:06 AM
If they get serious about deficit reduction they HAVE to go after the middle class because, to paraphrase Willie Sutton, "Thats where the money is".

spursncowboys
07-30-2010, 10:07 AM
good idea. farm out the video rights to national geographic.


you're like a child.

always blaming the US. you flaming lib.

lol cowboy wants his iron curtain.

you haven't proven anything. i take that back.....you have proved your ability to find rush on the radio.

this is another one of your dead cats.

why not just shoot every mexican (or anyone that might resemble a mexican) if they don't have a greencard stapled to their forehead?


yeah, because there was absolutely no discovery in the case. lol

No substance. Way to go out on a limb and say your true views trust fund baby.

coyotes_geek
07-30-2010, 10:08 AM
Of course not, but the obsequiousness of both parties toward it, is real.

I would say that the desire of both parties to appear that way is real, but the actual desire to practice it is not.

Then again, with basically half of the households in this country not paying any income tax at all perhaps I'm mistaken.

clambake
07-30-2010, 10:13 AM
No substance. Way to go out on a limb and say your true views trust fund baby.

i knew you wouldn't tackle the question. you even posted it.

clambake
07-30-2010, 10:14 AM
by the way, i'm married.

but i'm flattered by your attention.

George Gervin's Afro
07-30-2010, 10:21 AM
No substance. Way to go out on a limb and say your true views trust fund baby.

hi pot my name is kettle..

clambake
07-30-2010, 10:24 AM
#1 is interesting, too.

they go against everything you champion.

coyotes_geek
07-30-2010, 10:24 AM
#2 is interesting, wouldn't you say?

It's more than interesting, it's a good idea. We're already the ones paying those corporate income taxes in the form of passed along costs. Reduce the incentive for domestic corporations to hide their income elsewhere, increase the incentive for foreign corporations to hide their income here. Maybe even make it cheaper for corps to just pay the tax as opposed to avoiding the tax.

clambake
07-30-2010, 10:26 AM
It's more than interesting, it's a good idea. We're already the ones paying those corporate income taxes in the form of passed along costs. Reduce the incentive for domestic corporations to hide their income elsewhere, increase the incentive for foreign corporations to hide their income here. Maybe even make it cheaper for corps to just pay the tax as opposed to avoiding the tax.

of course it's a good idea. but he can't say that.

EVAY
07-30-2010, 10:30 AM
The effective overall income tax rate for 2009 was 9% for all American wage earners. Obviously some paid more (I did), some paid none. But the 'tea party' came to the fore during one of the periods of lowest tax payments in the country since the income tax was inititated. This is one of the reasons that the tea partiers have no credibility with me with respect to what their real agenda is.

I actually disagree that the middle class taxpayers are going to have to pay more than the current levels.

Nothing is going to happen before the next congress takes office, and nothing drastic is going to occur then. There will be no "cut defense to
200b, no VAT, no flat taxes.

We will nibble around at the edges and call it progress.

Re: the observation that "five years ago a $1T budget deficit would have been unthinkable"? It was unthinkable to me when I heard Paulson put the price tag on the Fiancial bailout. But we did it because it had to be done to prevent something worse.

CosmicCowboy
07-30-2010, 10:38 AM
The tea party movement is not just about taxes. It's about the growth of the Federal Government and it's creeping intrusion into every facet of our life.

George Gervin's Afro
07-30-2010, 10:52 AM
The tea party movement is not just about taxes. It's about the growth of the Federal Government and it's creeping intrusion into every facet of our life.


I'd assume these are the same people who want to amend the constituion to deny gay people the right to marry. I don't have a lot of respect for people who say they want less govt intervention who then turn around and push for govt intervetnion when it suits their purpose.

CosmicCowboy
07-30-2010, 10:56 AM
I'd assume these are the same people who want to amend the constituion to deny gay people the right to marry. I don't have a lot of respect for people who say they want less govt intervention who then turn around and push for govt intervetnion when it suits their purpose.

And why do you automatically assume the majority of tea party supporters want a constitutional amendment against gay marriage?

George Gervin's Afro
07-30-2010, 11:00 AM
And why do you automatically assume the majority of tea party supporters want a constitutional amendment against gay marriage?

I think it's a safe bet that most of these people are hardcore conservatives. Wouldn't you agree?

Most hardscore conservatives are typically against gay marriage.

boutons_deux
07-30-2010, 11:05 AM
Who are tea baggers?

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/289821

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/02/meet-the-tea-partiers-male-rich-and-college-educated.php


older males, white, well above median income.

CosmicCowboy
07-30-2010, 11:14 AM
I think it's a safe bet that most of these people are hardcore conservatives. Wouldn't you agree?

Most hardscore conservatives are typically against gay marriage.

Being personally opposed to gay marriage doesn't mean they necessarily want a constitutional amendment against it. Thats pretty much the stand of the hard religious right which is another distinct element as opposed to the tea party movement.

You faggots need to get your facts straight...:lol

EmptyMan
07-30-2010, 11:14 AM
lol @ "middle class"

Think for a second, have you ever heard the government refer to the lower class? No. Everyone is the "middle class" :lmao

Winehole23
07-30-2010, 11:17 AM
Most hardscore conservatives are typically against gay marriage.Doesn't necessarily translate to support for a constitutional amendment banning it. Just because you're a teetolaler doesn't mean you pine for the return of Prohibition.

TheMime
07-30-2010, 11:22 AM
...

TeyshaBlue
07-30-2010, 11:22 AM
Who are tea baggers?

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/289821

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/02/meet-the-tea-partiers-male-rich-and-college-educated.php


older males, white, well above median income.

I think most of the analysis of the polls did not include older, Forbes seems to be the only source for that. The rest of those data points reflect the general population of the US...80% white, a rapidly growing senior population ala' aging boomers, with a median income of 52k.

There are uncounted organizations that could claim the same makeup, and no boutons, they aren't all nerfarious "repug" inventions.

TeyshaBlue
07-30-2010, 11:24 AM
Addressing the OP, yes. Especially in times of crisis, which we are certainly in, taxes must be raised for all. Period.

Marcus Bryant
07-30-2010, 02:08 PM
Tax increases and reductions in spending across the board is what is needed. Of course, neither is politically desirable and the American character being as it is, neither will happen in sufficient magnitudes to meaningfully change the current public and private debt levels, or the growth thereof. Not to mention that you need robust economic growth as well, and increasing taxation and cutting government spending will be negative factors. So, we're screwed, so why not continue to borrow until we're cut off?

Winehole23
07-31-2010, 06:45 AM
As usual, we'll half-ass it, with the predictable train of evil results necessitating yet further penetration of the government into everyday life.

Winehole23
07-31-2010, 06:49 AM
Low types they must have been, their pockets full of poison and antidote.

Marcus Bryant
07-31-2010, 08:24 AM
As usual, we'll half-ass it, with the predictable train of evil results necessitating yet further penetration of the government into everyday life.

:tu