I'm so excited about the Chevy Volt!

[CosmicCowboy]

I can plug it in at my house and now the energy to run my car can come from coal instead of gasoline!

[Parker2112]

I guess more CO2 beats more rich muslims, right John Wayne?

[CosmicCowboy]

Look at it this way. If we actually cause global warming as hot as it already is there, those fuckers in the middle east will cook before we do.

[LnGrrrR]

It should be cheaper, I would think. Electric engines are more efficient, so I've heard.

[DarrinS]

Doesn't it cost around 45K?

A little pricey for an electric Cavalier.

[Sportcamper]

I realize that the Volt cant hall horses & boats but I think it will be a success in Los Angeles…GM’s decision to crush the "EV1" is right up there with the removal of the "redline" to us LA conspiracy folks…There are 1000’s of people out here who want an all electric vehicle…I hope GM sells a bunch of them....

[DarrinS]

I realize that the Volt cant hall horses & boats but I think it will be a success in Los Angeles…GM’s decision to crush the "EV1" is right up there with the removal of the "redline" to us LA conspiracy folks…There are 1000’s of people out here who want an all electric vehicle…I hope GM sells a bunch of them....

I guess 45K isn't that much, if it soothes your envrio-hypochondria.

[CosmicCowboy]

Doesn't it cost around 45K?

A little pricey for an electric Cavalier.

Yeah, base is $41,000. If they could have kept it under $10K Obama could have followed Hitlers model and called it the Voltswagen.

[Nbadan]

Looks like there is some interest..


GM said today that buyer interest in the new Chevrolet Volt has prompted the automaker to boost 2012 production plans for the plug-in hybrid to 45,000 units from 30,000.

GM announced the 50 percent production increase as President Barack Obama toured the Detroit-Hamtramck plant today where the Volt is being made. It goes on sale later this year.

“We are very proud to host the president of the United States where the future of the American auto industry is being built today,” said GM CEO Edward Whitacre Jr.

After consultations with the Secret Service and his press secretary, Robert Gibbs, Obama stepped into a black Volt, buckled himself in and haltingly drove perhaps 10 feet at a crawling speed, according to pool reporters with the president.

"Pretty smooth," Obama concluded.

Autonews (http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100730/OEM/100739988/1261#ixzz0vC3zo786)

[CosmicCowboy]

After consultations with the Secret Service and his press secretary, Robert Gibbs, Obama stepped into a black Volt, buckled himself in and haltingly drove perhaps 10 feet at a crawling speed, according to pool reporters with the president.

"Pretty smooth," Obama concluded.

http://bitsblog.florack.us/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/dukakis_tank.jpg

[Sportcamper]

Darrin-I am just saying…There are lots of greenies out here who don’t care if it is 45k…Did you watch the Academy awards show last year? ½ of the Academy members showed up in a Prius…Everyone of them had an Obama sticker…The uber cool crowd had save the whales & fur is murder stickers as well….

[Sportcamper]

Also…I don’t know if it is current but there was a 7k tax credit to purchase the Volt…Is this a great country or what?

[CosmicCowboy]

Also…I don’t know if it is current but there was a 7k tax credit to purchase the Volt…Is this a great country or what?

$7500

And for the Nissan Leaf, too. The Nissan lists $10,000 less than the Chevy.

[ElNono]

It should be cheaper, I would think. Electric engines are more efficient, so I've heard.

Way more efficient... in the vicinity of 80+% IIRC.
Combustion on the other hand is around 50%...

The challenge with electric is in the batteries. Both on overall charge, charge time, and longevity...

[CosmicCowboy]

Did you watch the Academy awards show last year? ½ of the Academy members showed up in a Prius…Everyone of them had an Obama sticker…

That was the same Prius with the same Obama sticker just circling the block. They were parking their Maybachs and Escalades behind the building.

[CosmicCowboy]

The challenge with electric is in the batteries. Both on overall charge, charge time, and longevity...

and disposal

[LnGrrrR]

If you include the rebate, it's only 33k or so! :)

[Bender]

If you include the rebate, it's only 33k or so! :)
is that for real, or a joke?

[LnGrrrR]

I tell you, if there's one place this country could use a revolutionary idea, it's for a new battery. Our server floors have monstrous batteries wired up in series, and it's only to give servers time to shut down softly. A new battery would impact countless fields. That's my big "I wish" invention for this next decade.

[LnGrrrR]

is that for real, or a joke?

The fact is real, the delivery is a joke. :lol

[Bender]

yeah, I just googled it... sheesh a $41,000 small car. forget it.

[CosmicCowboy]

Way more efficient... in the vicinity of 80+% IIRC.
Combustion on the other hand is around 50%...

OK, it all starts in Wyoming. Huge Diesel guzzling cranes and trucks mine the coal.

http://www.wmc-usa.org/img/coal_mining/NARM_pit-41.jpg

On to Texas in Diesel powered trains

http://www.underwesternskies.net/PRB/prb8.jpg

Then burned at Braunig and Calaveras

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ9eJoaxsD-t6aX6nTg8Po6Mk8nLtZUEqzJAjbdChzAtGfTCWk&t=1&usg=__1Xmb2VC-w_xrB1lN8RgVGRpLCl0=

Converted to electricity at 50% efficiency (optimistically)

Now, plug in your Volt and drive it 40 miles (losing another 20% efficiency in the process) till the batteries run out and the gasoline powered engine kicks in and pat yourself on the back for being "GREEN" and saving the earth!

[LnGrrrR]

To be fair CC, most of the people looking to get this car probably aren't driving more than 40 miles a day.

ALso, are you arguing that coal is more efficient than electricity?

No one's saying it's going to be green as, say, bicycling to work. But it is slightly greener than a normal car.

[CosmicCowboy]

To be fair CC, most of the people looking to get this car probably aren't driving more than 40 miles a day.

ALso, are you arguing that coal is more efficient than electricity?

No one's saying it's going to be green as, say, bicycling to work. But it is slightly greener than a normal car.

I'm saying we get a lot of our electricity here by burning coal.

That electricity coming out of your wall plug isn't "clean" to start with.

[LnGrrrR]

That electricity coming out of your wall plug isn't "clean" to start with.

Is anyone arguing that?

[Nbadan]

Your added electric bill would be nominal, about 1.50 per day....but you get the first 40 miles, about the typical drive for most Americans, free with the volt.....if you spend 120/month on gas that a savings of 1,440 per year...or about 6,000 for the lease of the car, about 6 years..the price for the volt after the tax rebate is 33,500

[Sportcamper]

You pull up to a Vegan Restaurant in that car & the shallow, simple, silicone enhanced, smoking hot gals go crazy…I am all about saving the planet by driving an electric vehicle...:tu

[CosmicCowboy]

Your added electric bill would be nominal, about 1.50 per day....but you get the first 40 miles, about the typical drive for most Americans, free with the volt.....if you spend 120/month on gas that a savings of 1,440 per year...or about 6,000 for the lease of the car, about 6 years..the price for the volt after the tax rebate is 33,500

Now factor in a battery life span of 110,000 miles and a replacement cost of $10,000 and see how your numbers look.

[Parker2112]

you guys havent even touched on the disposal of batteries.

[CosmicCowboy]

you guys havent even touched on the disposal of batteries.

I did earlier.

[admiralsnackbar]

To be fair CC, most of the people looking to get this car probably aren't driving more than 40 miles a day.

ALso, are you arguing that coal is more efficient than electricity?

No one's saying it's going to be green as, say, bicycling to work. But it is slightly greener than a normal car.

At this point it isn't even about environmental conscientiousness as much as just being cheap as hell and leery of the oil market in the near future -- especially if you have enough acreage and the know-how to build and install some cheapo windmills (I know... sounds ridiculous, but search google) and/or invest in some solar cells and store the juice for your car or home.

I know this wouldn't work for everyone in the world, but here in the SW it's just wasteful to not exploit the 300+ days of sunshine and/or constant supply of wind in the plains. Money in your pocket.

[Bender]

I'll keep my small gas car, and my mid-size motorcycle

[TeyshaBlue]

you guys havent even touched on the disposal of batteries.

Actually, at the end of it's designed life cycle, the battery pack should have over 70% of it's capacity remaining. It will be suitable for industrial uses. That will offload the recycling for a few more years. Lithium is so relatively cheap right now, that there's not alot of interest in recycling them. Toxco, http://www.toxco.com/facilities.html is the only large company that does this.

[Nbadan]

I'm not going to begrudge anyone for attempting to eliminate their carbon footprint as much as possible.....battery prices are likely to decrease and disposal of these batteries will spark entrepreneurship!

[DarrinS]

Remember why they invented the catalytic converter?

They thought CO2 and water were harmless. Well, now we know that CO2, without which there would be no life, is a deadly gas.

Oh shit. I just exhaled some.

[Sportcamper]

Has anyone mentioned that the Volt is a nice looking car?

http://www.growthology.org/photos/uncategorized/2008/09/16/chevy_volt.jpg

[Nbadan]

Remember why they invented the catalytic converter?

They thought CO2 and water were harmless. Well, now we know that CO2, without which there would be no life, is a deadly gas.

Oh shit. I just exhaled some.

I have an idea...stick a bag on your head and breathe in your own CO2 and lets see what happens...

[CosmicCowboy]

Your added electric bill would be nominal, about 1.50 per day....but you get the first 40 miles, about the typical drive for most Americans, free with the volt.....if you spend 120/month on gas that a savings of 1,440 per year...or about 6,000 for the lease of the car, about 6 years..the price for the volt after the tax rebate is 33,500

Where did you get your $1.50? It takes about 100Kwh for a full charge. By my calculations I'm paying about 10.25 cents per Kwh.

Thats more like $10.25 to charge it to drive 40 miles or about 26 cents a mile.

By comparison, a gas car that gets 20mpg at 3.50 a gallon costs 17.5 cents a mile to fuel.

*note* I'm currently checking on that 100Kwh figure that I saw published.

[Nbadan]

from the Chevy site


Electricity is an extremely affordable way to power a car - the average American pays less than 12 cents per kilowatt hour. If the average American drives less than 40 miles, it will cost about $1.50 a day for electricity. That's about the same annual cost as running a common household appliance. To save even more, some utility companies recommend charging overnight for off-peak rates and may even offer incentives to customers who do so

Chevy (http://www.chevrolet.com/pages/open/default/future/volt.do?seo=goo_|_2009_Chevy_Awareness_|_IMG_Chevy _Volt_Phase_2_Branded_|_Chevy_Volt_|_chevy_volt)

[Sportcamper]

You can argue efficiency & toxic batteries all you want CC…The Volt is going to make people in Los Angeles feel better about their carbon foot print…I kind of feel sorry for those polluting Prius owners...Hybrids are like soo yesterday…:lol

[DarrinS]

How long would it take to recoup the 20K that this thing is overpriced?

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm seeing estimates as low as 20Kwh and as high as 100Kwh. At 20 thats just a little over $2.00 or 5 cents a mile for the first 40. (of course adding 10 cents a mile for prorated battery pack cost evens things out significantly)

[Drachen]

I guess 45K isn't that much, if it soothes your envrio-hypochondria.

What do I care what the reasoning is that first adopters use to justify a 45k car? Let them adopt and make things better and cheaper for us poor saps. Oh and BTW darrin, people have been driving 45k cars for ages at least this one has a purpose other than ego (not saying ego isnt part of this, but it does have a whole OTHER purpose too).

[DarrinS]

What do I care what the reasoning is that first adopters use to justify a 45k car? Let them adopt and make things better and cheaper for us poor saps. Oh and BTW darrin, people have been driving 45k cars for ages at least this one has a purpose other than ego (not saying ego isnt part of this, but it does have a whole OTHER purpose too).


I don't care what people pay for a car, but THAT car is not worthy of 45K, IMO.

[LnGrrrR]

I don't care what people pay for a car, but THAT car is not worthy of 45K, IMO.

Well, the free market will decide whether it's worth it or not.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Actually, at the end of it's designed life cycle, the battery pack should have over 70% of it's capacity remaining. It will be suitable for industrial uses. That will offload the recycling for a few more years. Lithium is so relatively cheap right now, that there's not alot of interest in recycling them. Toxco, http://www.toxco.com/facilities.html is the only large company that does this.

i read in the news, theres talk about installing these used battery packs into homes and shit, where they can just charge up during the day and use at night...

[DarrinS]

Well, the free market will decide whether it's worth it or not.

Well, it's not entirely a free market with the tax credit.

[Drachen]

I don't care what people pay for a car, but THAT car is not worthy of 45K, IMO.

I can't think of a reason to buy any car for 45k, at least this one does something that the others don't.

[LnGrrrR]

Well, it's not entirely a free market with the tax credit.

You know what I meant. Either people will think this is a good deal for 35K or whatever it costs after the rebate, or they won't. Time will tell.

[admiralsnackbar]

Well, it's not entirely a free market with the tax credit.

Or taxpayer money subsidizing Detroit for the past 30 years.

[Sportcamper]

Point of order...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle

Cost of recharge
The GM Volt will cost "less than purchasing a cup of your favorite coffee" to recharge. The Volt should cost less than 2 cents per mile to drive on electricity, compared with 12 cents a mile on gasoline at a price of $3.60 a gallon. This means a trip from Los Angeles to New York would cost $56 on electricity, and $336 with gasoline. This would be the equivalent to paying 60 cents a gallon of gas.

[EmptyMan]

It's pretty gross seeing the President of the freaking country going to such an extent to pimp a specific company that he now owns.

[DMX7]

It's pretty gross seeing the President of the freaking country going to such an extent to pimp a specific company that he now owns.

You mean "we" own.

[DMX7]

Yeah, base is $41,000. If they could have kept it under $10K Obama could have followed Hitlers model and called it the Voltswagen.

I see what you did there.

[CosmicCowboy]

Point of order...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle

Cost of recharge
The GM Volt will cost "less than purchasing a cup of your favorite coffee" to recharge. The Volt should cost less than 2 cents per mile to drive on electricity, compared with 12 cents a mile on gasoline at a price of $3.60 a gallon. This means a trip from Los Angeles to New York would cost $56 on electricity, and $336 with gasoline. This would be the equivalent to paying 60 cents a gallon of gas.

Of course at 40 miles a day it will only take a couple months to get there.

[DMX7]

Of course at 40 miles a day it will only take a couple months to get there.

Yeah, bad reference from whoever wrote that, probably Obama.

But the car is still useful. I read that most commutes are less then 40 miles anyway.

[CosmicCowboy]

I see what you did there.

:lol

Glad someone did. I thought the people in here would be more history literate.

[Wild Cobra]

It should be cheaper, I would think. Electric engines are more efficient, so I've heard.Way more efficient... in the vicinity of 80+% IIRC.
Combustion on the other hand is around 50%...

The challenge with electric is in the batteries. Both on overall charge, charge time, and longevity...
Yes, but by the time electricity gets to our homes, it's only something like 50% efficient.

How long before I have to replace the batteries again?

[Wild Cobra]

you guys havent even touched on the disposal of batteries.
No shit, or the fact they are made in countries that don't have the same environmental concerns we do.

[Wild Cobra]

Point of order...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle

Cost of recharge
The GM Volt will cost "less than purchasing a cup of your favorite coffee" to recharge. The Volt should cost less than 2 cents per mile to drive on electricity, compared with 12 cents a mile on gasoline at a price of $3.60 a gallon. This means a trip from Los Angeles to New York would cost $56 on electricity, and $336 with gasoline. This would be the equivalent to paying 60 cents a gallon of gas.
Wait one minute....

A favorite cup of coffee at a Starbucks costs around $4, doesn't it?

40 miles on $4.00....

Where do they sell my favorite coffee for 80 cents? Is this something computated by a journalist who likes cheap coffee?

[Wild Cobra]

Where did you get your $1.50? It takes about 100Kwh for a full charge. By my calculations I'm paying about 10.25 cents per Kwh.

Thats more like $10.25 to charge it to drive 40 miles or about 26 cents a mile.

By comparison, a gas car that gets 20mpg at 3.50 a gallon costs 17.5 cents a mile to fuel.

*note* I'm currently checking on that 100Kwh figure that I saw published.
I agree. The "favorite cup of coffee" angle doesn't pan out either.

[Wild Cobra]

Of course at 40 miles a day it will only take a couple months to get there.
No kidding. Can you plug it in every 36 miles? how long does a full charge take?

(10% safety factor)

God... The way articles fool libtards.

[Wild Cobra]

One more thing.

Get rid of the dams tax credit. No subsidies, only people who have decent money will buy these puppies anyway.

Aren't you liberals in favor of having the rich pay more, not less?

[ElNono]

Yes, but by the time electricity gets to our homes, it's only something like 50% efficient.

Hmm... no. I'm not talking about efficiency of generating the power source, I'm talking about effective efficiency of two different engines. I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough.

That said, I don't buy that 50% number you threw up there at all, unless you're restricting all generated electricity to coal. You can only make gas from oil, and extraction, refining and transportation is, at the very least, as inefficient as coal electricity generation. But electricity can also be generated in many more ways: nuclear, hydro, solar, wind, geothermal, gas. Most, if not those all of those, completely remove the need of transportation, since can be connected directly into the grid.


How long before I have to replace the batteries again?

Right now the real question is: How cheap/expensive is to replace that battery pack again? And the answer is: a lot cheaper than 5 years ago.
The good news is that batteries are basically used on almost everything right now, and the technological push is always there to make better, cheaper and longer lasting batteries.

And FWIW, the whole green vs non-green doesn't really concern me at all, that's why it's something I haven't specifically touched upon in my posts.

[ElNono]

No kidding. Can you plug it in every 36 miles? how long does a full charge take?
(10% safety factor)

Read up on Level III fast chargers. Those things can top off a Leaf's 24KWh battery pack in about 30 or so minutes. Nissan is installing about 200+ of them in five states as part of their initial rollout. And yes, there's a government grant for that.

I think this tech needs to mature. But once the chargers are out there, and it has evolved for 4 or 5 years, it can be a good alternative to look at.

[ElNono]

you guys havent even touched on the disposal of batteries.

This is a non-issue if you ask me. Lead-acid batteries used in cars today are more hazardous than what's used on EVs (NiMH mostly or Lithium-Ion in rare cases). The automotive industry has done a great job of organizing ways to dispose of them, and 98% of car batteries today are actually recycled in the US. There's simply no reason why this would be any different with electric vehicles.

[Wild Cobra]

This is a non-issue if you ask me. Lead-acid batteries used in cars today are more hazardous than what's used on EVs (NiMH mostly or Lithium-Ion in rare cases). The automotive industry has done a great job of organizing ways to dispose of them, and 98% of car batteries today are actually recycled in the US. There's simply no reason why this would be any different with electric vehicles.
Lead acid batteries are effectively completely recyclable. Are lithium ion?

[ElNono]

Lead acid batteries are effectively completely recyclable. Are lithium ion?

Sure. There's actually no lithium metal in Lithium-Ion batteries, just lithium salts in an organic solvent used in the electrolyte. The anode is normally graphite and the cathode metal oxide. The biggest reason you want to actually have a recycling program for them is for safety reasons. We're all well aware that if punctured and exposed to high heat, they can explode.

[Wild Cobra]

Sure. There's actually no lithium metal in Lithium-Ion batteries, just lithium salts in an organic solvent used in the electrolyte. The anode is normally graphite and the cathode metal oxide. The biggest reason you want to actually have a recycling program for them is for safety reasons. We're all well aware that if punctured and exposed to high heat, they can explode.
I'll admit, I know little on recycling these batteries. Still, my concern is that I don't believe these to be the future. Battery cars at some point, YES. Just not at our technological level. No reason that we cannot achieve such goals. I just know we aren't there yet.

How much do these these batteries cost, and with how much of a life? these batteries lose storage capacity over time of usage. 40 mile range today, maybe 37 after a year, then 35, etc... they also increase in resistance (source impedance.) Acceleration will also notable decrease with time.

Again, how much does a replacement set of batteries cost? Do they need replaced every 5 years, or less if improperly maintained? How many people properly maintain things? properly maintaining them means allowing nearly full discharge before recharging. How many people will do that?

Count me out as for advocating our current level of technology for the public. Let the YUPPIE's and other rich people buy these as status symbols, but do not subsidize them.

Why do so many people thing the free market isn't up to the task of the future, without subsidies? I love this country, but the belief others have that we cannot succeed without Uncle Sam's helping hand pisses me the hell off.

[spursncowboys]

Does anyone know why barry cut the hydrogen car out of his companie's manufacturing?

[Wild Cobra]

Does anyone know why barry cut the hydrogen car out of his companie's manufacturing?
His hot air is more effective.

[boutons_deux]

Honda has a hydrogen pilot running, where else?, in CA.

Hydrogen fueling stations, splitting water, run off solar. Very cool, but I doubt that it scales up. I read an article where there was new solar panel that split water directly.

I suppose you have to have distilled water, since minerals and salt (and fracking fluids) probably impede/prevent efficient splitting.

Corrosive, explosive hyrdrogen generation and transport requires an entirely new infrastructure, so if there is way to avoid transporting it, like generating it all locally, that's a key advance.

I guess fuel-cells last longer than batteries. We'll see.

First generation Prius batteries are dying, and costing $5000 to replace, nullifying, exceeding any savings in using batteries rather than gasoline, forgetting about the premium to buy a tinny Prius.

The Volt's long guarantee, if it covers battery replacement, might hurt GM, the way Chrysler's 50K mile drive train guarantee hurt Chrysler decades ago.

Volt is obviously a first step, a beta test, for GM electric car.

[CosmicCowboy]

Volts long guarantee? I personally don't consider 100,000 miles long considering the estimated cost to replace the battery pack is $10,000.

[DarrinS]

Volt is obviously a first step, a beta test, for GM electric car.




Never heard of the EV1?

[CosmicCowboy]

Honda has a hydrogen pilot running, where else?, in CA.

Hydrogen fueling stations, splitting water, run off solar. Very cool, but I doubt that it scales up. I read an article where there was new solar panel that split water directly.

I suppose you have to have distilled water, since minerals and salt (and fracking fluids) probably impede/prevent efficient splitting.

Corrosive, explosive hyrdrogen generation and transport requires an entirely new infrastructure, so if there is way to avoid transporting it, like generating it all locally, that's a key advance.

I guess fuel-cells last longer than batteries. We'll see.

First generation Prius batteries are dying, and costing $5000 to replace, nullifying, exceeding any savings in using batteries rather than gasoline, forgetting about the premium to buy a tinny Prius.

The Volt's long guarantee, if it covers battery replacement, might hurt GM, the way Chrysler's 50K mile drive train guarantee hurt Chrysler decades ago.

Volt is obviously a first step, a beta test, for GM electric car.

You can't really use the Clarity as an example of the feasibility of Hydrogen if you are intellectually honest. This is basically a PR and research project for Honda. You can't buy one if you wanted to. You can only lease one. The estimated cost to build them is $300,000 each.

[boutons_deux]

yes, asshole, I've heard of the EV1 from screwed-up, ossified GM, but it was never marketed to general public like the Volt.

[boutons_deux]

hey, asshole, I didn't say, if you were honest rather than a boutons stalker, that Clarity was feasible, nor scaleable. It's Honda learning how pure hydrogen cars and drivers work out. The solar refueling stations are another very cool idea, esp if they are off the grid, or very low electric consumers (apart from the hydrogen production).

If it weren't for evil corporate lies and conspiracies, we should have been doing this stuff 25+ years ago.

[Sportcamper]

I still cant figure out why some of you are upset about Chevy making an electric car again…The whole idea is to put an end to fossil fuel dependence…The only problem I see is the anemic tax credit…Obama should make the credit 15k instead of 7.5k…People from Los Angeles who will be buying these cars are entitled to this…

[ElNono]

I'll admit, I know little on recycling these batteries. Still, my concern is that I don't believe these to be the future. Battery cars at some point, YES. Just not at our technological level. No reason that we cannot achieve such goals. I just know we aren't there yet.

It's ok to have an alternative from gas. Technologically it allows us to remain competitive with the rest of the world. Looking down the road, it also removes the dependency from foreign oil.
When gas was $4+ some people were bitching how far back we were technologically and how dated was our infrastructure to support an alternative to gas. Well, now we're investing in that R&D and investing in deploying that infrastructure.


How much do these these batteries cost, and with how much of a life? these batteries lose storage capacity over time of usage. 40 mile range today, maybe 37 after a year, then 35, etc... they also increase in resistance (source impedance.) Acceleration will also notable decrease with time.

Depends on the battery type, temperature in the region, etc. NMh are cheaper than Li-Ion, take longer to lose their storage capacity (no rare to see them last over 10+ years), but some suffer from memory loss effects and can't pack as much energy. Li-Ion on the other hand normally last about 3 years at near peak efficiency, don't have memory loss problems and can pack and deliver much more energy.

I believe the battery in most of these cars are NMh. Li-Ion will make sense if their longevity can be extended to at least 5 or so years, or they can be produced for cheaper.

I currently don't know about costs. What I do know is that things turn into a lot cheaper when you're making 10 million of them instead of 10,000 of them.

As far as range, it's only going to get better with newer battery generations.

If you don't like the price though, you can easily not buy one of these cars...


Again, how much does a replacement set of batteries cost? Do they need replaced every 5 years, or less if improperly maintained? How many people properly maintain things? properly maintaining them means allowing nearly full discharge before recharging. How many people will do that?

Electronics? I mean this is something that has been done forever now, if you actually have a decent battery charger. The charger will fully discharge the battery before topping it off again. And this is only for NMh batteries. Li-Ion do not posses the memory loss effect, thus don't need to be drained before charged.


Count me out as for advocating our current level of technology for the public. Let the YUPPIE's and other rich people buy these as status symbols, but do not subsidize them.
Why do so many people thing the free market isn't up to the task of the future, without subsidies? I love this country, but the belief others have that we cannot succeed without Uncle Sam's helping hand pisses me the hell off.

Gas cars are subsidized too. I'm not sure what you're bitching about here.
I see this as an investment by the country in R&D and infrastructure for the future. So when the next oil crisis and speculation comes around, we're not caught with our pants down.

Again, if you don't think this thing will fly, stick with your subsidized gas car. There's no obligation to participate in this thing.

[Wild Cobra]

yes, asshole, I've heard of the EV1 from screwed-up, ossified GM, but it was never marketed to general public like the Volt.
It wasn't marketed for a reason. Laws requiring stockage of parts for so many years. They owned all and leased them, that way they could test market and avoid those pesky laws. this is also why they destroyed them later.

I'm worried for GM selling the Volt. They now have to support it for so many years, and may lose money in the end that way.

[Wild Cobra]

hey, asshole, I didn't say, if you were honest rather than a boutons stalker, that Clarity was feasible, nor scaleable. It's Honda learning how pure hydrogen cars and drivers work out. The solar refueling stations are another very cool idea, esp if they are off the grid, or very low electric consumers (apart from the hydrogen production).

If it weren't for evil corporate lies and conspiracies, we should have been doing this stuff 25+ years ago.
Bullshit.

Hydrogen poses too many problems and is expensive. If that now solar technology for direct conversion is real, we may have the breakthrough we need for hydrogen. most other problems have been solved.

If you could find an article on direct conversion, I would like to see it. Deionized water is not that expensive to make on site from tap water. It's pretty easy, fast, and cost effective. I would agree it probably required DI H2O.

[Wild Cobra]

I still cant figure out why some of you are upset about Chevy making an electric car again…The whole idea is to put an end to fossil fuel dependence…The only problem I see is the anemic tax credit…Obama should make the credit 15k instead of 7.5k…People from Los Angeles who will be buying these cars are entitled to this…
Oh go fuck yourself.

No more subsidies, dammit. You liberal pussies need to learn to live without subsidies.

[CosmicCowboy]

Oh go fuck yourself.

No more subsidies, dammit. You liberal pussies need to learn to live without subsidies.

Jim Bob is trolling you. He drives a pickup.

[boutons_deux]

"pussies need to learn to live without subsidies."

oil/gas/coal/tbtf-banks/bigpharma/mega-corps are all pussies, but you love them, their your pussies.

[Wild Cobra]

"pussies need to learn to live without subsidies."

oil/gas/coal/tbtf-banks/bigpharma/mega-corps are all pussies, but you love them, their your pussies.
Bullshit.

If there are government subsidies to business, get rid of them too.

[Sportcamper]

Point of order…Yes I do drive a 2009 F-150…And it is a nice pick up truck…But a huge chunk of the cost was paid by Government Stimulus…
1- Cash for clunkers…
Savings = $3500.00
2- Expansion of the Ford X Plan to non Ford employees…
Savings = $3000.00
3- Stimulus tax credit for all DMV fees & sales tax paid on a new car…
Savings = $3300.00
4- Ford dollars for taking delivery of an “on dealer lot extended cab”…
Savings = $3500.00 (This was not a government program I just like to tell people what a great deal I got)…

I am just saying is that the good people of Los Angeles who will be purchasing this electric vehicle are “Entitled” to a larger tax rebate… I am in favor of dropping tax credit for the Foreign made vehicles & increasing the tax credit for the Chevy to 10k…It is a win win situation…..

[Wild Cobra]

Point of order…Yes I do drive a 2009 F-150…And it is a nice pick up truck…But a huge chunk of the cost was paid by Government Stimulus…
1- Cash for clunkers…
Savings = $3500.00
2- Expansion of the Ford X Plan to non Ford employees…
Savings = $3000.00
3- Stimulus tax credit for all DMV fees & sales tax paid on a new car…
Savings = $3300.00
4- Ford dollars for taking delivery of an “on dealer lot extended cab”…
Savings = $3500.00 (This was not a government program I just like to tell people what a great deal I got)…

I am just saying is that the good people of Los Angeles who will be purchasing this electric vehicle are “Entitled” to a larger tax rebate… I am in favor of dropping tax credit for the Foreign made vehicles & increasing the tax credit for the Chevy to 10k…It is a win win situation…..
Camper...

I have no problem with you taking advantage of the subsidies offered. If not you, someone else would have. I am pissed that they subsidized sales to begin with.

I'm not a big fan of the F150, but i just have other preferences. It is a great inexpensive truck though. just that if I bough a truck, i want a real workhorse. Even though Chevy has problems, I love both the Vortek and Duramax engines. I'm a Ford man at heart, but bought a Z28 over a Mustang. I don't care for the complexity of Ford's modular engines, and love the simplicity and power of the LS series.

Who knows. I may break down and help Obama motors out, and buy a new Camaro.

[Sportcamper]

I got to admit, it is nice to have a pick up truck when you need one…Men’s Warehouse had a two for one sale…I bought a couple suits, slacks, sport coats, 6 dress shirts & then made a Costco run & bought beer, sodas, ribs, etc…That F-150 hauled that stuff like it was nothing…

Cameros Rock! They should have a stimulus program for Cameros...

[Nbadan]

I got to admit, it is nice to have a pick up truck when you need one…Men’s Warehouse had a two for one sale…I bought a couple suits, slacks, sport coats, 6 dress shirts & then made a Costco run & bought beer, sodas, ribs, etc…That F-150 hauled that stuff like it was nothing…

Cameros Rock! They should have a stimulus program for Cameros...

If you have a stable job and income, then the economy slowing is a good thing for you because it means lower prices on gas, food, and entertainment

[clambake]

a 50 year old guy in a new camaro=lol.

[Wild Cobra]

a 50 year old guy in a new camaro=lol.
What's wrong with that?

It's a sweet ride. I've had sports cars since I was teenager. Why should I stop just because I'm in my 50's?

[Bender]

how old are you really?

[Wild Cobra]

how old are you really?
In my 50's. I'll leave it at that.

[TeyshaBlue]

a 50 year old guy in a new camaro=lol.

Shut yer piehole. I want a fuckin' Corvette.:ihit:ihit:lol

[Wild Cobra]

Shut yer piehole. I want a fuckin' Corvette.:ihit:ihit:lol
Well, maybe now that my kids all have their own car and drive, I could go for a Corvette. However, I like the Ford GT better.

If I were to buy an electric, it would be something like the Tesla.

[Bender]

In my 50's. I'll leave it at that.
wow, I had no idea... didn't you have a pic up a while back of you in a bowling alley or something...?

[Wild Cobra]

wow, I had no idea... didn't you have a pic up a while back of you in a bowling alley or something...?
That's about 10 years old now.

[LnGrrrR]

Well, maybe now that my kids all have their own car and drive, I could go for a Corvette. However, I like the Ford GT better.

If I were to buy an electric, it would be something like the Tesla.

Camaros, Chargers and Challengers all beat out a Vette or Ford GT for me.

[CosmicCowboy]

Camaros, Chargers and Challengers all beat out a Vette or Ford GT for me.

Wow.

None of them are even in the same class as the Ford GT, but $140,000 is pretty steep.

[TeyshaBlue]

Camaros, Chargers and Challengers all beat out a Vette or Ford GT for me.

shup, Brock. Just cause you drive a Charger doesn't mean it can whoop a Vette.

[ElNono]

I like German when it comes to car engineering. My Benz was a joy to drive.
911 are a lot of fun too.

[LnGrrrR]

Wow.

None of them are even in the same class as the Ford GT, but $140,000 is pretty steep.

I didn't mean beat out in the sense of actual racing; I just like their look better.

[LnGrrrR]

shup, Brock. Just cause you drive a Charger doesn't mean it can whoop a Vette.

Can't wait for Season 5 to come out... woohoo. Trying to convince the wife to let me pick up Seasons 3 and 4 on Blu-Ray.

[TeyshaBlue]

Can't wait for Season 5 to come out... woohoo. Trying to convince the wife to let me pick up Seasons 3 and 4 on Blu-Ray.


:toast

[CosmicCowboy]

I didn't mean beat out in the sense of actual racing; I just like their look better.

Are we talking about the same car? Those Ford GT's are classic old school automotive beauty patterned after the old F40's.

http://fordgtforsale.com/DSC04136.jpg

[Wild Cobra]

Camaros, Chargers and Challengers all beat out a Vette or Ford GT for me.
I didn't have a Charger, but I had a different 1970 Chrysler "B" body. Same sleek body as the Charger. The Cornet (aka Super Bee) of that era can be made to go as well as any Charger. I think I only had mine to about 150 MPH. Both my Firebird and Z28 I had would go over 160. Had my Firebird a few times past 160, but never took my Z28 past about 130. Also had a Mercury Comet in high school that I hopped up. This isn't it, but here's the basic car:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/Mercury_Comet_5.0_Coupe_%28Orange_Julep%29.jpg/800px-Mercury_Comet_5.0_Coupe_%28Orange_Julep%29.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b6/%2771_Dodge_Charger_Super_Bee_%28Orange_Julep%29.J PG/800px-%2771_Dodge_Charger_Super_Bee_%28Orange_Julep%29.J PG

[Wild Cobra]

Camaros, Chargers and Challengers all beat out a Vette or Ford GT for me.

I'm not talking about a Mustang GT, but the sports car modeled after the 1960's Ford GT 40.

The only Mustangs I lake are the early Fastbacks.

[Wild Cobra]

I like German when it comes to car engineering. My Benz was a joy to drive.
911 are a lot of fun too.
I used to regularly pass all German cars on the autobahn in Germany. Their electronic cutout was factory set for 250 kph.

[Wild Cobra]

Wow.

None of them are even in the same class as the Ford GT, but $140,000 is pretty steep.
True.

I would never buy one unless I came into some serious dough.

[Wild Cobra]

Are we talking about the same car? Those Ford GT's are classic old school automotive beauty patterned after the old F40's.

http://fordgtforsale.com/DSC04136.jpg
That's it...

The Viper eater.

But it's not modeled from the F40, but the GT 40 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_GT40).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/GT40_at_Goodwood.jpg/800px-GT40_at_Goodwood.jpg

[TeyshaBlue]

Shit. All this muscle car Viagra. I can't even walk to the coke machine now.:depressed:depressed

[CosmicCowboy]

That's it...

The Viper eater.

But it's not modeled from the F40, but the GT 40 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_GT40).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/GT40_at_Goodwood.jpg/800px-GT40_at_Goodwood.jpg


Duh

You are correct. GT40

[LnGrrrR]

Are we talking about the same car? Those Ford GT's are classic old school automotive beauty patterned after the old F40's.

http://fordgtforsale.com/DSC04136.jpg

Ha! No wonder; I was thinking Mustang GT. Yes, that Ford GT is a thing of beauty.

[LnGrrrR]

I'm not talking about a Mustang GT, but the sports car modeled after the 1960's Ford GT 40.

The only Mustangs I lake are the early Fastbacks.

When I lived in San Antonio, it seemed every other car on the highway was a Mustang or Civic.

[Sportcamper]

This is America in a nutshell…The subject was electric car…And the thread turns into favorite muscle cars….:lol

[TeyshaBlue]

I'm not talking about a Mustang GT, but the sports car modeled after the 1960's Ford GT 40.

The only Mustangs I lake are the early Fastbacks.

My first car: 1970 Mach I.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/teyshablue/70Mach1-12.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/teyshablue/70Mach1-18.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/teyshablue/70Mach1-13.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/teyshablue/dufarch13.jpg

[TeyshaBlue]

This is America in a nutshell…The subject was electric car…And the thread turns into favorite muscle cars….:lol

:lol :toast

[Nbadan]

My first car: 1970 Mach I.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/teyshablue/70Mach1-12.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/teyshablue/70Mach1-18.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/teyshablue/70Mach1-13.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/teyshablue/dufarch13.jpg

nice ride.....here is my first car...

http://www.dubai-net.com/motors/images/thumb/DSC00574.JPG

What were my parents thinking?

[TeyshaBlue]

nice ride.....here is my first car...

http://www.dubai-net.com/motors/images/thumb/DSC00574.JPG

What were my parents thinking?

Woof! I love those TA's!

Yeah, my Mom was pretty pissed at my Dad when we brought that sled home.:lol

[ElNono]

I used to regularly pass all German cars on the autobahn in Germany. Their electronic cutout was factory set for 250 kph.

Yes. I'm not really a speed freak. I just really like their engineering overall.

[Sportcamper]

General Motors' announcement earlier this year that it would temporarily cease production of its extended-range electric vehicle, the Chevrolet Volt, sounded like a potential death knell for the already beleaguered car. But now, just weeks after the five-week work stoppage at Volt plants, California drivers are clamoring for the Volt and dealerships are sold out.

The reasons for the Volt's sudden popularity in the Golden State are region-specific: Gas prices continue to hover above $4 per gallon and state incentives for electric cars include a $1,500 rebate -- that's in addition to the $7,500 federal tax credit -- along with driving privileges in car-pool lanes that are otherwise reserved for multiple-occupant vehicles. But since California tends to be an automotive proving ground, particularly for alternative vehicles, if current demand continues it could help put the Volt on stronger footing overall.

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/blogs/autosblogpost.aspx?post=b1a00132-ba54-43b8-9b74-8b9da26a9351&icid=autos_2906

[boutons_deux]

Better Lithium Ion Battery Aims to Re-Energize Electric Cars

A new lithium ion battery technology may finally make the devices cheap enough and durable enough to turn electric cars from a niche product into a mass-market mode of transport. Waltham, Mass.–manufacturer A123 Systems has produced a cell that delivers 20 percent more power, works at temperatures as low as –30 degrees Celsius and as high as 60 degrees C, and should be just as easy as current batteries to manufacture.

"There's no 'unobtainium' in this battery," says company co-founder, Massachusetts Institute of Technology materials scientist Yet-Ming Chiang. "It's not based on a very expensive new chemistry."

Independent scientists have been scrutinizing the company's claims and say they are impressed.

"The ions and electrons have to move faster," explains chemist Jeffrey Chamberlain, who leads the Energy Storage Initiative at Argonne National Laboratory and was not involved in this research. That, in turn, suggests an improvement in one of three places: the electrolyte (the ion-carrying guts of the battery); the interface between the electrolyte and the electrodes (the charge-collecting plates); the electrodes themselves; or all of the above. Manufacturing innovations may also contribute. Although the specifics of the Nanophosphate EXT improvements remain unclear, A123 does hold patents relating to work on novel electrode and electrolyte materials as well as battery structures. "If this is real, it's a major breakthrough,"

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=better-lithium-ion-battery-from-a123-systems

[boutons_deux]

E-Motive Response: Electric Car Owners Dish on Their Real-World EV Experiences

In the year and a half since modern, mass-market electric cars have been available for purchase, many a pundit has attempted to paint a picture of what driving and owning one of these vehicles is like. From ludicrous myths (exploding batteries) to questionable claims (a more relaxed morning commute), it can be hard to know exactly what a plug-in car will do in the real world.

Now EV owners are beginning to speak up on what it is like to be early adopters and how the cars behave during daily driving. It is expected that many owners at this early stage are enthusiasts, but the experiences of a small sample of drivers so far indicate they are being rewarded for their leap of faith.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ev-electric-car-ownership-2012

[Drachen]

When I lived in San Antonio, it seemed every other car on the highway was a Mustang or Civic.

Or an F150

[Drachen]

When I lived in San Antonio, it seemed every other car on the highway was a Mustang or Civic.

Or an f150

[TeyshaBlue]

Better Lithium Ion Battery Aims to Re-Energize Electric Cars

A new lithium ion battery technology may finally make the devices cheap enough and durable enough to turn electric cars from a niche product into a mass-market mode of transport. Waltham, Mass.–manufacturer A123 Systems has produced a cell that delivers 20 percent more power, works at temperatures as low as –30 degrees Celsius and as high as 60 degrees C, and should be just as easy as current batteries to manufacture.

"There's no 'unobtainium' in this battery," says company co-founder, Massachusetts Institute of Technology materials scientist Yet-Ming Chiang. "It's not based on a very expensive new chemistry."

Independent scientists have been scrutinizing the company's claims and say they are impressed.

"The ions and electrons have to move faster," explains chemist Jeffrey Chamberlain, who leads the Energy Storage Initiative at Argonne National Laboratory and was not involved in this research. That, in turn, suggests an improvement in one of three places: the electrolyte (the ion-carrying guts of the battery); the interface between the electrolyte and the electrodes (the charge-collecting plates); the electrodes themselves; or all of the above. Manufacturing innovations may also contribute. Although the specifics of the Nanophosphate EXT improvements remain unclear, A123 does hold patents relating to work on novel electrode and electrolyte materials as well as battery structures. "If this is real, it's a major breakthrough,"

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=better-lithium-ion-battery-from-a123-systems

Hope A123 is around long enough to develop the technology.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/12/business/energy-environment/a123-us-backed-battery-maker-claims-breakthrough.html?pagewanted=all

[coyotes_geek]

My first car: 1970 Mach I.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/teyshablue/70Mach1-12.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/teyshablue/70Mach1-18.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/teyshablue/70Mach1-13.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/teyshablue/dufarch13.jpg


nice ride.....here is my first car...

http://www.dubai-net.com/motors/images/thumb/DSC00574.JPG

What were my parents thinking?

You two can GFY! Try spending your teenage years trying to pick up chicks in a used, baby blue version of one of these. :depressed

http://paintref.com/graphics/brochure/1980LTD_01.jpg

And no, the ownership experience wasn't nearly as elegant as this picture conveys. It's just the only picture of this four-wheeled, god forsaken, babe repellent POS that I could find on the internet.

BTW, did I mention you two can GFY?

:p:

[Drachen]

I had a 1987 Dodge ramcharger (that I started driving in 1996), I love(ed) that truck. If it didn't get 8 miles to the gallon (highway) I would totally go find one for 500 bucks and drive it (at least to the lake/river, etc).

http://cimages2.carsforsale.com/326138/3B4GD12T4HM704384_1.jpg


C_G, I owned a 1986 Cadillac Cimarron that I bought in 2005. Try picking up girls in one a car labled among the "50 greatest mistakes of the car industry". At least I got it for only 350 dollars..

Edit: Fuck, sorry about that picture

Mine was maroon.

[TeyshaBlue]

I bought that car with my own money when I was 14. My Dad and I spent two years restoring it to factory...it was perfect. 9 months and 4 speeding tickets later, he made me sell it. Wanna see what my second car was?
:depressed











http://mclellansautomotive.com/photos/B31290.jpg

[TeyshaBlue]

I had a 1987 Dodge ramcharger (that I started driving in 1996), I love(ed) that truck. If it didn't get 8 miles to the gallon (highway) I would totally go find one for 500 bucks and drive it (at least to the lake/river, etc).

http://cimages2.carsforsale.com/326138/3B4GD12T4HM704384_1.jpg


C_G, I owned a 1986 Cadillac Cimarron that I bought in 2005. Try picking up girls in one a car labled among the "50 greatest mistakes of the car industry". At least I got it for only 350 dollars..

Edit: Fuck, sorry about that picture

Mine was maroon.

Bwaaahahahaha.... I bought my wife (now ex-wife) one of those POS Cimarron's. Good God...what a horrible car.

[Wild Cobra]

My first car was a '66 Comet.

Z1nySjrWYaA

But...

Mine was the Caliente.

[coyotes_geek]

C_G, I owned a 1986 Cadillac Cimarron that I bought in 2005. Try picking up girls in one a car labled among the "50 greatest mistakes of the car industry". At least I got it for only 350 dollars..


If the 1980 Ford LTD didn't make that list, it couldn't have missed it by much. :lol

[TeyshaBlue]

You two can GFY! Try spending your teenage years trying to pick up chicks in a used, baby blue version of one of these. :depressed

http://paintref.com/graphics/brochure/1980LTD_01.jpg

And no, the ownership experience wasn't nearly as elegant as this picture conveys. It's just the only picture of this four-wheeled, god forsaken, babe repellent POS that I could find on the internet.

BTW, did I mention you two can GFY?

:p:

You look pretty dapper in that pic, CG.:lol

[TeyshaBlue]

My first car was a '66 Comet.

Z1nySjrWYaA

Remember the "Grabber"?

http://www.maverickcometclub.org/2002nationals/roundup200207.jpg


Pretty cool cars. The Comet from the 70's with the 302 was a bit of a sleeper.

[Wild Cobra]

Remember the "Grabber"?

http://www.maverickcometclub.org/2002nationals/roundup200207.jpg


Pretty cool cars. The Comet from the 70's with the 302 was a bit of a sleeper.
Yes, I liked those. Never had one. My best earlier fast car was a 1977 Firebird with the Olds 350, and Trans-Am Body parts added.

[coyotes_geek]

You look pretty dapper in that pic, CG.:lol

:lol

Pretty close. All you have to do is swap out the tux for the finest wardrobe Target could supply and dub in me saying "Oh, this is just my mom's car. My corvette is in the shop."

[TeyshaBlue]

Love those old 70's F-bodies. I never actually owned one...always wanted to tho.

[TeyshaBlue]

:lol

Pretty close. All you have to do is swap out the tux for the finest wardrobe Target could supply and dub in me saying "Oh, this is just my mom's car. My corvette is in the shop."

:lmao:lmao

[Nbadan]

Chevrolet Volt Outselling Corvette in 2012


Chevrolet’s plug-in hybrid sedan is in its first year of full production, and after six months of sales, the Volt has toppled the Chevy Corvette in the retail race.

So far in 2012, Chevy has offloaded 7,057 Volts, compared to the the Corvette’s 5,547 sales. It deserves noting that the figures General Motors — Chevrolet’s parent company — has released are for deliveries to dealers, and not vehicles parked in customer garages.

Still, the duality of the two vehicles sold under the same marque couldn’t be more clear. Both the Corvette and Volt could be considered niche products — one a sports car, one a plug-in hybrid with a 40-mile range and absolutely no sporting pretenses.

There’s also the price discrepancy — not that anyone is cross-shopping the two models. The Volt comes in at $39,995 before any state or federal incentives, while the Corvette starts at just over 50 large. And of course, the fuel economy of both models stands in stark contrast: The Volt gets a combined rating of 94 MPGe, while the ‘Vette and its 6.2-liter V8 manages to eek out 16 MPG in the city and 26 MPG on the highway.


http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/06/volt-v-vette/

[Wild Cobra]

Chevrolet Volt Outselling Corvette in 2012



http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/06/volt-v-vette/
Who cares?

[TeyshaBlue]

Who cares?

I do....STFU.

[Wild Cobra]

I do....STFU.
Well then. Since you can only assume the tone of my voice, assume it was a simple question.

[Wild Cobra]

About the Corvette...

With a price range of just under $50k to just over $110k, it's not surprising at all. Must be the CAFE standards or something, but the prices of muscle cars have really increased compared to others. It's also possible to meet fleet CAFE standards, Chevrolet can only produce so many, making supply and demand pricing even higher than normal.

I wouldn't in any way take this to suggest people prefer the Volt over the Corvette.

I think the correct question to ask is what percentage of Corvettes built sold vs. the percentage of Volts built and sold. I'll bet very close to 100% of the Corvettes built were sold without any special deals, or waiting on the lot very long.

[tempest186]

My first car was also a baby blue Ford Ltd though it was a '77. Fortunately it was a sporty 2 door. Each door just happened to be as big as a honda civic.

[Wild Cobra]

My first car was also a baby blue Ford Ltd though it was a '77. Fortunately it was a sporty 2 door. Each door just happened to be as big as a honda civic.

LOL...

probably easier to move a Civic by hand than the door...

LOL...

To add about the Corvette...

Dealers are able to sell the new Camaro's at $5k over MSRP due to supply vs. demand. I didn't check on the Corvette, but it's probably a similar story. I was looking to buy a new Camaro, but I'm not going to pay that much.

[Sportcamper]

Dealers are able to sell the new Camaro's at $5k over MSRP due to supply vs. demand. I didn't check on the Corvette, but it's probably a similar story. I was looking to buy a new Camaro, but I'm not going to pay that much.

Why don’t you shop outside your area? You can get internet prices all over the country…Community Chevrolet in Burbank CA had a bunch of Camaros at discount….

[boutons_deux]

Paradigm Shift: The MIT CityCar And The Future Of Urban Mobility

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/city-car.jpg


Next month, Senator Jeff Merkely (D-Oregon) will drive an all electric vehicle from Portland to Ashland — a distance of about 285 miles — to show off the viability EVs and Oregon’s new electric highway program.

While Senator Merkley’s trek is great PR for EVs and his support in congress is vital to the continued development of the next generation of vehicles, the future of the electric car isn’t just on the nation’s highways, but in the cities.

For the last few years, scientists and researchers at MIT have been working on a project called the CityCar. The CityCar represents a radical rethinking of the urban mobility paradigm — a shift from conventional vehicles operating in a cramped, polluted, dangerous environment to vehicles specifically optimized for urban centers.

What is the City Car?

As MIT describes, the CityCar is unlike any vehicle in production today. “It does not have a central engine and traditional power train, but is powered by four in-wheel electric motors. Each wheel unit contains drive motor (which also enables regenerative braking), steering, and suspension, and is independently digitally controlled.”

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/06/27/506268/paradigm-shift-the-mit-citycar-and-the-future-of-urban-mobility/

[TeyshaBlue]

If I've got to drive one of those on 183 or 635 to get to the urban areas, I'm out.:lol

[Blake]

I had me a Chrysler that seated about 20 for my first car.

Babe repellent extraordinaire

http://www.adclassix.com/images/79chryslernewport.jpg

[TeyshaBlue]

You had no chance...I mean how can you resist Hal Linden as a spokesperson?:lol

[Blake]

And that 23mpg is a lie. More like 3mpg.

[TeyshaBlue]

2.3 mpg?

[Blake]

You had no chance...I mean how can you resist Hal Linden as a spokesperson?:lol

But Barney said I could have it all now......now.

[Blake]

2.3 mpg?

Lol

[TeyshaBlue]

But Barney said I could have it all now......now.

Dude's got a mean theme song tho.

[clambake]

did it ride like a boat?

[Blake]

Rode like a battleship.

If you watch some chase scenes from early 80 shows and movies, it was also a popular cop car.

[clambake]

Rode like a battleship.

probably weighed the same to, huh?

[CosmicCowboy]

My high school car was a '68 Ford Galaxy 500. It was the exact same car and color (black body, white top) that the highway patrol was using. I put a CB in it with an amplified speaker in the grill and a big whip antenna in the back (like the highway patrol) and got one of those Starsky and Hutch magnetic red rotating lights. I'd cruise up behind my friends at night, whip the lights on, and tell em to "pull it over!" with the loudspeaker and watch them throw all their weed out the window...:lmao

[DarrinS]

My first car was a 1969 Mercury Cougar.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_nEcS7mTzh94/TJY-j3HdcTI/AAAAAAAAD_c/qlC9w8qfVyA/S968-R/1969+Mercury+Cougar+Blog+Banner.jpg


Grill would rotate to reveal headlights. Had electric everything. Pretty much a luxury version of a Mustang.

mpvpqWGfZvs

[TeyshaBlue]

My high school car was a '68 Ford Galaxy 500. It was the exact same car and color (black body, white top) that the highway patrol was using. I put a CB in it with an amplified speaker in the grill and a big whip antenna in the back (like the highway patrol) and got one of those Starsky and Hutch magnetic red rotating lights. I'd cruise up behind my friends at night, whip the lights on, and tell em to "pull it over!" with the loudspeaker and watch them throw all their weed out the window...:lmao

That karma will come back and kick yer ass someday.:lol:lol

[CosmicCowboy]

As soon as I got out of college and got a job I ditched that piece of shit for a new 4WD pickup, later traded that for a 280Z and then bought a custom L88 Vette.

Then I got married.

*sigh*

Went to one of the old full size Jeep Grand Wagoneers. That was a studly truck.

http://www.smartcarguide.com/listimg/img_0712/img_13494592_01.jpg

[clambake]

My first car was a 1969 Mercury Cougar.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_nEcS7mTzh94/TJY-j3HdcTI/AAAAAAAAD_c/qlC9w8qfVyA/S968-R/1969+Mercury+Cougar+Blog+Banner.jpg


Grill would rotate to reveal headlights. Had electric everything. Pretty much a luxury version of a Mustang.

mpvpqWGfZvs

omg that was my wifes first car when we came to the states. exactly like that one. exactly!

[DarrinS]

omg that was my wifes first car when we came to the states. exactly like that one. exactly!

Yeah, I had that same color scheme too.

[CosmicCowboy]

omg that was my wifes first car when we came to the states. exactly like that one. exactly!

Where did you come from originally?

[clambake]

n. ireland.

[CosmicCowboy]

n. ireland.

no shit? Back when it was a shooting war?

[clambake]

no shit? Back when it was a shooting war?

yes. wasn't involved in the "troubles".

i was into that other thing.

[clambake]

Yeah, I had that same color scheme too.

haven't thought about that car in ages. thanks

[TeyshaBlue]

yes. wasn't involved in the "troubles".

i was into that other thing.

Ah...in the Irish Rake-Fighting Cartel, were ya?:lol

[clambake]

Ah...in the Irish Rake-Fighting Cartel, were ya?:lol

was that some stupid shit or what. embarrassing.

[boutons_deux]

What Are Top EV-Friendly Cities Doing for Electric Vehicles?


“Cities are also leading by example. Many have already added electric vehicles to municipal fleets and incorporated hybrid buses into public transportation. They are placing charging spots at public buildings and, in some cases, offering discounted electricity rates for EV users from municipal-owned utilities. Just as important, cities are using their convening power to assemble multi-stakeholder groups that include city planners, automakers, utilities, infrastructure suppliers, academic and research institutions, and city and national officials. These groups work together to create a roadmap for EV readiness that considers all stakeholder perspectives and seeks to identify and address technical, economic and regulatory barriers to EV adoption and integration.”


Amsterdam

Barcelona

Los Angeles


http://cleantechnica.com/2012/07/06/what-are-top-ev-friendly-cities-doing-for-electric-vehicles/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+IM-cleantechnica+%28CleanTechnica%29&utm_content=Google+Reader

[ElNono]

I just saw a Chevy Volt on the road the other day... first time... funky looking car.

[Juggity]

Electric cars, meh.

What's really exciting is the prospect of Google's self-driving cars.

[Sportcamper]

VW Bug...

http://i.oodleimg.com/item/3051936244u_0x424x360f_1974_volkswagen_beetle/?1337893968

[boutons_deux]

A123 Has Four to Five Months of Cash Left



We’ve followed electric car battery maker A123 from near the beginning, and now it seems to be near its end. On Friday, the company told investors that it only has four to five months of cash left, provided it gets access to an expected $30 million.

A123 is looking for ways to cut costs and raise more money. While the company has promising battery technology and orders from major automakers, it has been plagued by high manufacturing costs (it lost 57 cents per dollar of revenue), cancelled orders, and recalls of faulty batteries.


http://www.technologyreview.com/view/428459/a123-has-four-to-five-months-of-cash-left/?ref=rss

[boutons_deux]

Ford's Little Engine That Could Challenge Hybrids

http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2012/07/24/fordatfrankfurt_089_wide.jpg?t=1343171663&s=4

http://www.npr.org/2012/07/24/157252558/fords-little-engine-that-could-challenge-hybrids?sc=17&f=1006

[Drachen]

Ford's Little Engine That Could Challenge Hybrids

http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2012/07/24/fordatfrankfurt_089_wide.jpg?t=1343171663&s=4

http://www.npr.org/2012/07/24/157252558/fords-little-engine-that-could-challenge-hybrids?sc=17&f=1006


I love this quote, especially when you see the name of the guy being quoted.


"There's a certain magic to the word 'hybrid' for some people. There are some people that just want to have the hybrid. They want to have a hybrid badge. They want to be seen as having purchased a hybrid," Bragman says.

[boutons_deux]

Electric Car & Hybrid Car Sales up 164% in June

Highlights of the last year in electric and hybrid cars include a 164% increase in June 2012 sales, compared to June 2011. Folks at Kelley Blue Book expect hybrid and electric vehicle (EV) sales to slow a bit — but not nosedive — as gas prices decline.

Movers and shakers in the alternative-energy car category include Lexus and Chevrolet. The Blue Book Market Report highlights a 500% increase in sales of the Lexus CT200h year-over-year. The Chevy Volt had a 200% year-over-year increase in sales. The Volt may be more popular because of its longer driving range — 379 miles; however, the Volt is not entirely electric, a sticking point for some of the EV hardliners.

Toyota had a big year with its Prius, as well. Alec Gutierrez, senior market analyst of automotive insights for Kelley Blue Book, said Prius sales surged “more than 300 percent from June of last year. The Prius has been in high demand since the introduction of the subcompact Prius c and wagon-esque Prius v. Sales numbers for the Prius look especially strong due to the inventory shortages that plagued Toyota at this time last year.”

Not all EVs and hybrids had stellar years, though. The Blue Book reported the Honda CR-Z, Honda Insight, and Nissan Leaf had a bummer of a year, failing to reach the same figures from 2011.

http://cleantechnica.com/2012/07/23/electric-car-hybrid-car-sales-up-june-2012/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+IM-cleantechnica+%28CleanTechnica%29&utm_content=Google+Reader

Winners and losers sorting out...

[TeyshaBlue]

Geo Metro FTW. :lol

[Wild Cobra]

I love this quote, especially when you see the name of the guy being quoted.
"There's a certain magic to the word 'hybrid' for some people. There are some people that just want to have the hybrid. They want to have a hybrid badge. They want to be seen as having purchased a hybrid," Bragman says.
What gets me is that some hybrids actually pollute more than conventional engines.

[TeyshaBlue]

btw...I'm rebuilding a 1988 Subaru Justy.....1.0 liters of 3 cylinder fury!

[clambake]

thats not a buggy.

[Wild Cobra]

btw...I'm rebuilding a 1988 Subaru Justy.....1.0 liters of 3 cylinder fury!
I'll stick with the 340 HP I have in my 346 CI LS1.

[boutons_deux]

Chevy Volt wins drivers' hearts, gets top marks in satisfaction

Then again, having Chevy Volt owners evangelize about their cars in an ad designed to sell the plug-in hybrid is hardly a fair yardstick to gauge how Volt owners feel about their cars.

But a recent J.D. Power Survey has come to the same conclusion as GM’s own ad: drivers of the 2012 Chevrolet Volt are more satisfied with their new car than any other compact car buyer in the U.S. today.

RELATED: 10 coolest cars you've never heard of

In its recent 2012 Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout (APEAL) study, which examines owner impressions of their new car 90 days after purchase, J.D. Power and Associates discovered that Volt attracted the highest level of satisfaction in its segment.

In its impartial study, J.D. Power noted that the 2012 Chevrolet Volt was awarded a maximum of five stars for its Overall Performance and Design, Features and Instrument Panel, Style, Performance and Comfort.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2012/0727/Chevy-Volt-wins-drivers-hearts-gets-top-marks-in-satisfaction?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+feeds%2Fcsm+%28Christian+Scie nce+Monitor+|+All+Stories%29&utm_content=Google+Reader

[DarrinS]

btw...I'm rebuilding a 1988 Subaru Justy.....1.0 liters of 3 cylinder fury!

Why?

[TeyshaBlue]

Why?

Hate to let it go to waste. It was my oldest son's car. He warped the head on a trip and I had to tow home from St. Joseph MO. It's just sitting in my garage. Might on well fix the damn thing. :lol

[DarrinS]

Hate to let it go to waste. It was my oldest son's car. He warped the head on a trip and I had to tow home from St. Joseph MO. It's just sitting in my garage. Might on well fix the damn thing. :lol

I have a Subaru, just not one that old. Mine feels like it's powered by a 1L.

[DarrinS]

Their 4-cyl boxer engines are pretty indestructible. Never seen a 3-cyl.

[coyotes_geek]

Nearly two years after the introduction of the path-breaking plug-in hybrid, GM is still losing as much as $49,000 on each Volt it builds, according to estimates provided to Reuters by industry analysts and manufacturing experts.


GM's quandary is how to increase sales volume so that it can spread its estimated $1.2-billion investment in the Volt over more vehicles while reducing manufacturing and component costs - which will be difficult to bring down until sales increase.


The weak sales are forcing GM to idle the Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant that makes the Chevrolet Volt for four weeks from September 17, according to plant suppliers and union sources. It is the second time GM has had to call a Volt production halt this year.


It currently costs GM "at least" $75,000 to build the Volt, including development costs, Munro said. That's nearly twice the base price of the Volt before a $7,500 federal tax credit provided as part of President Barack Obama's green energy policy.

Other estimates range from $76,000 to $88,000, according to four industry consultants contacted by Reuters. The consultants' companies all have performed work for GM and are familiar with the Volt's development and production. They requested anonymity because of the sensitive nature of their auto industry ties.

link (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/insight-gms-volt-ugly-math-041323478.html;_ylt=Aiw5dpJyDtg_3r6AWYh1H1uiuYdG;_ ylu=X3oDMTQzNHFyZW81BG1pdANGaW5hbmNlIEZQIEp1bWJvdH JvbiBMaXRlBHBrZwM4MTM0MmYyYS0zYmU4LTNkMTAtODVhMC1l M2UzNTY1Mzg4OWIEcG9zAzEEc2VjA2p1bWJvdHJvbgR2ZXIDOD AyZDkxNjAtZmFmZi0xMWUxLWExYzAtMDBjNWE4ZWE5ZDE2;_yl g=X3oDMTFpNzk0NjhtBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3Rh aWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25z;_ylv=3)

[Fabbs]

Chevy Volt wins drivers' hearts, gets top marks in satisfaction

In its impartial study, J.D. Power noted that the 2012 Chevrolet Volt was awarded a maximum of five stars for its Overall Performance and Design, Features and Instrument Panel, Style, Performance and Comfort.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2012/0727/Chevy-Volt-wins-drivers-hearts-gets-top-marks-in-satisfaction?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+feeds%2Fcsm+%28Christian+Scie nce+Monitor+|+All+Stories%29&utm_content=Google+Reader
Why do you think Volt is sucking ass in sales?

[TeyshaBlue]

It's just too fucking expensive for a very small compact. That's keeping me out of one.

[Drachen]

I think it gets even worse for Chevy with the $32,000 Ford C-Max Energi coming out.

[coyotes_geek]

The good news for GM is that they're still selling enough gas guzzlers to cover their losses on the Volt.

[boutons_deux]

gasoline at $8/gal would fix everything.

[DarrinS]

gasoline at $8/gal would fix everything.


It wouldn't fix Volt sales.

[boutons_deux]

sure it would, and it would fix all electric/hybrid sales, with the gas tax and cancelled BigOilGas tax expenditures going to pay for more battery, etc research, to fix the broken national electrical grid, etc, etc.

[TeyshaBlue]

lol. No.

[Drachen]

It wouldn't fix Volt sales.

yeah it would. cost benefit analysis for families: If I have a choice between a 350 dollar car payment with 800 a month for gas and a 600 dollar car payment with 0-100 dollars for gas then it becomes easy.

[Yonivore]

The good news for GM is that they're still selling enough gas guzzlers to cover their losses on the Volt.
Aren't the majority of those being sold back to the federal government?

[TeyshaBlue]

yeah it would. cost benefit analysis for families: If I have a choice between a 350 dollar car payment with 800 a month for gas and a 600 dollar car payment with 0-100 dollars for gas then it becomes easy.

Not always. That 800/monthly is incremental and at least has the pretense of being somewhat controllable.

That 600 dollar car payment is not. Exchanging that flexibility for $450 in incremental savings might not be the easiest move.

[coyotes_geek]

gasoline at $8/gal would fix everything.

I like it. Poor people shouldn't be driving anyways. This will definitely get them off the roads.

[Drachen]

Not always. That 800/monthly is incremental and at least has the pretense of being somewhat controllable.

That 600 dollar car payment is not. Exchanging that flexibility for $450 in incremental savings might not be the easiest move.


Edit: true, but not sure that many people will look at it as such. If they did, then they would just take the bus.

speaking of which, I will say this, we might get a decent public transportation system outta that.

[DarrinS]

I like it. Poor people shouldn't be driving anyways. This will definitely get them off the roads.

lol -- it's the ultimate regressive tax

[Wild Cobra]

lol -- it's the ultimate regressive tax
Just the cost of vehicles today. The cost of the required technology is going to put a damper of the poor buying a car.

State: Sorry, your vehicle doesn't pass emission tests.

Mechanic: It will cost you $1200 to fix it.

[boutons_deux]

GM disputes claim it loses $49,000 per Volt sale

A Reuters report Monday said GM's plug-in hybrid was a big money-loser. GM, though, disputed the contention, saying Reuters' research "is grossly wrong" and accusing the news agency of bad math. The automaker said the news agency incorrectly "allocated product development costs across the number of Volts sold instead of allocating across the lifetime volume of the program, which is how business operates.”

The debate over the cost of the Volt is highlighting how much of a lightning rod GM -- and the Volt -- have become since the automaker’s federal bailout in 2009 and as the presidential election approaches, analysts said.

The car, which travels about 35 miles on electric power before a gasoline engine kicks in and extends the range by another 300 miles, has become a political football and favorite target of "GM haters" who are angry over the federal bailout, said Thilo Koslowski, an automotive analyst at research firm Gartner Inc.

"The Volt as a brand has become politicized," said Jeremy Anwyl, vice chairman of auto information company Edmunds.com.

That's in part GM's fault because it made the Volt a poster child for why it deserved the federal bailout, he said. More recently, "GM alive, Bin Laden dead" has become a theme of President Obama's reelection campaign.

Plenty of vehicles besides the Volt lose money when their development costs are included in the analysis, analysts said.

Even Honda may lose money on its conventional gasoline engine-equipped Fit because the sub-compact has a small profit margin that is eaten up by the unfavorable exchange rate between the Japanese yen and the U.S. dollar, Anwyl said. All of the Fits sold in the U.S. are made in Japan.

“Toyota lost a lot of money in the beginning when it brought the Prius to the world,” Koslowski said. “This is particularly true for cars with new powertrain technology like the Volt.”

The Prius is now a big seller for Toyota, rivaling conventional family sedans such as the Hyundai Sonata and Ford Fusion is sales. With sales likely to top 200,000 this year, it has become one of the best-selling passenger cars in America.

GM has sold more than 13,000 Volts so far the year, about half the volume that it had expected, and plans to idle the plant for four weeks starting later this month.

While sales are slow, the car is still doing better than other new-technology vehicles.


http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-auto-chevrolet-volt-losses-20120910,0,3613718.story

and of course, Fox Repug Propaganda is pissing over the Volt, so you know the Volt's situation is a LOT BETTER than Fox lies.

http://nation.foxnews.com/chevy-volt/2012/07/17/media-fail-chevy-volt-makes-no-money-costs-taxpayers-hundreds-thousands-dollars-car

[coyotes_geek]

Noticably absent from GM's rebuttal is any kind of number of their own. The number may not be -$49k per Volt, but they're definitely losing money on them.

[boutons_deux]

"they're definitely losing money on them"

the article says ALL the new hybrid/electric vehicles, including the now-successful Prius, lost/are losing money. Why do you pick ONLY on the Obama-saved-GM Volt?

[coyotes_geek]

"they're definitely losing money on them"

the article says ALL the new hybrid/electric vehicles, including the now-successful Prius, lost/are losing money. Why do you pick ONLY on the Obama-saved-GM Volt?

Might have something to do with this being a thread pretty much dedicated to the Chevy Volt. Could also have something to do with Toyota managing to make the Prius successful without extorting $50 billion from U.S. taxpayers.

[boutons_deux]

"extorting $50 billion"

:lol

[coyotes_geek]

I know, I know, we've been down this road before. You're a fan of corporate welfare and I'm not.

[DarrinS]

I actually saw a Chevy Volt while driving to work this morning. First one I have seen. But that is to be expected as S.A. is not a particularly wealthy town.

[Drachen]

This looks pretty promising right here, hopefully any PLEV can use this especially since Tesla makes most of their money providing the infrastracture and tech for many other EVs.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/09/13/tesla-supercharger-network-september-24th

[boutons_deux]

If USA was really serious about "energy independence", instead of letting the oilcos drill all over National Parks, private land, and US lands for next to nothing so the oil/gas companies have more oil to sell, the a steep tax on gas and diesel would work. In fact, BigOil sets national energy policy to enrich itself, not the US govt to direct the country for the benefit of its citizens.

Taxes Show One Way to Save Fuel

Just the other day, President Obama unveiled another example of how our hostility to anything that even remotely looks like a tax is leading us down the wrong path, ultimately making us worse off.

The president proudly announced energy-efficiency standards negotiated with the nation's carmakers, which will have to nearly double the average fuel economy of cars and light trucks sold, hitting 54.5 miles a gallon in 2025.

"It'll strengthen our nation's energy security, it's good for middle class families and it will help create an economy built to last," he said in an official statement.

The rules are a significant step in the battle against global warming. The Environmental Protection Agency and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which developed the standards, said they will reduce our energy use by 12 billion barrels of oil and cut carbon emissions spewed by our cars, pickups and sport utility vehicles in half by 2025. They should also cut down on other forms of pollution, helping with problems like asthma and acid rain.

What the government didn't mention is that these improvements come at a high cost for drivers, automakers and society in general. They could be achieved much more cheaply by raising taxes on gasoline to a level comparable to that of pretty much every other industrialized nation.

The new mileage rules are so expensive, in fact, that even if one factors in all the expected gains from the policy - like less damage from climate change and fewer deaths from respiratory disease - many economists think that the costs actually outweigh the benefits.

The reason is fairly straightforward. Fuel-efficiency standards do not really change drivers' behavior in a helpful way. Gas taxes do.

Consider how a gas tax would work. Because it would make gas more expensive at the pump, we would drive less. When time came to replace the old family S.U.V., we would be more likely to consider a more fuel-efficient option. As more Americans sought gas-sipping hybrids, carmakers would develop more efficient vehicles.

This is not theory. We've seen it happen. In 2008, when the price of gas shot abruptly past $4 a gallon, Americans cut back sharply on their driving. Total miles driven on American highways declined for the first time since 1980 and gas use fell more than 4 percent. General Motors ditched the Hummer, and gas-guzzling pickups were briefly dislodged from the perch they had occupied since 1992 as the nation's most popular light vehicle.

Driving levels started creeping back up as soon as gas prices started receding, but a gas tax would be permanent and would lead to even bigger changes in habits. And the cost is lower than it seems. Economists point out that the energy savings would not change if the government returned all the revenue raised by a gas tax to Americans - perhaps through rebates for low-income people who spend a bigger share of their money on gas.

The weakness with the fuel-economy rules is that they don't affect people's behavior the way higher gas prices do. They apply only to new vehicles - not the ones on the road now - so it takes quite a long time to alter our overall gas use. And they carry perverse incentives: because new vehicles go farther on a gallon of gas, they give us a reason to drive more, leading to more congestion, accidents, pollution and gas consumption.

Christopher Knittel, an energy economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, estimated that if carmakers had devoted all their technological progress since 1980 to improving fuel efficiency, gas mileage would have improved 60 percent by 2006. Instead, they put most of their effort into more power and weight, and fuel economy gained less than 12 percent.

All this makes mileage standards an expensive way to restrain our energy use.

According to the government's analysis, the additional production and maintenance costs made necessary by the mileage rules will rise gradually to about $31.7 billion in 2025 - which will add about $1,900 to the average price of cars and light trucks. There are other costs, too. Some Americans will not be able to afford a new car. Profits of some automakers and dealers are likely to decline. Greater congestion will impose an added burden on health.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/09/12/business/fuel-efficiency-standards-have-costs-of-their-own.xml?f=23

[Wild Cobra]

Shazbot. Just when I already think you are stupid, you sink to new lows.

Fuel usage can only be curtailed by a small percentage. Raising the fuel taxes will disproportionally hurt those who cannot afford it.

[boutons_deux]

Shazbot. Just when I already think you are stupid, you sink to new lows.

Fuel usage can only be curtailed by a small percentage. Raising the fuel taxes will disproportionally hurt those who cannot afford it.

you don't have that sincere concern about regressivity when you want the (working) poor to pay income taxes, flat tax, and consumption taxes, do you?

[Wild Cobra]

you don't have that sincere concern about regressivity when you want the (working) poor to pay income taxes, flat tax, and consumption taxes, do you?

The difference is that I believe all people should pay taxes, even if just a little bit.

[boutons_deux]

The difference is that I believe all people should pay taxes, even if just a little bit.

There was study in TX that showed poor people paid a higher percentage of their income in taxes that the wealthy. But your blind ideology wants to punish the poor more.

The poor contribute more years, injuries, and deaths into your sacred military service than the wealthy.

[Wild Cobra]

There was study in TX that showed poor people paid a higher percentage of their income in taxes that the wealthy. But your blind ideology wants to punish the poor more.

The poor contribute more years, injuries, and deaths into your sacred military service than the wealthy.
Well, it depends on the criteria they used. Did they count SS and Medicare insurances? Did the deduct earned income credit, and other tax credits?

Fact is that about 48% of the tax filers get more money back in credits than was deducted from their paychecks in income tax. I say this is wrong. When you have a near majority of the population that doesn't give a rip about tax rates, because they don't pay any...

Think about what happens when more than 50% pay no income tax. It would be like having 3 wolves and 2 sheep voting on what's for dinner.

[TeyshaBlue]

you don't have that sincere concern about regressivity when you want the (working) poor to pay income taxes, flat tax, and consumption taxes, do you?

Doesn't negate his point. A gas tax is regressive as hell.

[Th'Pusher]

Doesn't negate his point. A gas tax is regressive as hell.

The article does mention a potential rebate for low income drivers to help offset the regresivity of the tax.

[boutons_deux]

all countries with serious VAT, like 15% to 20%+, and higher for luxury goods, have huge deductions and allowances for the low-end incomes. It's the only way to make VAT approximate fairness, which is opposite of WC's blind, punitive "tax the moocher poor" ideology.

[TeyshaBlue]

The article does mention a potential rebate for low income drivers to help offset the regresivity of the tax.

Very similar to the flat tax 2.0 with it's rebate program. Probably stands as good a chance at hitting legislation.

[coyotes_geek]

The gas tax does need to go up. Transportation infrastructure is pretty badly underfunded. $8 is ludicrous, but I'd at least like to see both the state and federal gas taxes get bumped by at least a dime.

[boutons_deux]

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/

[boutons_deux]

Throw a few $B at fuel cell research, not the DoD

http://www.fuelcells.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/StateoftheStates2012.pdf

[boutons_deux]

One Big Step for Tesla, One Giant Leap for E.V.'s

The 2012 Model S, a versatile sedan that succeeds the company's two-seat Roadster, is simultaneously stylish, efficient, roomy, crazy fast, high-tech and all electric. It defies the notion that electric cars are range-limited conveyances.
While driving a Model S with the biggest available battery pack - 85 kilowatt-hours - on a restrained run through Northern California wine country, I was able to wring 300.1 miles from a single charge. The E.P.A.'s rating for equivalent gasoline miles per gallon
is 88 m.p.g.e. in town and 90 on the highway, with a 265-mile range.

On a more enthusiastic romp from my home base here to Santa Cruz and back, I sampled what the 362-horsepower electric drivetrain was designed to do: bolt. Tesla says the car can zip from zero to 60 in 5.6 seconds and tops out at 125 miles per hour, but it was the silent, near-instantaneous bursts from 35 to 65 along the Pacific on California Highway 1 that best demonstrated the S's otherworldly quality.

I managed to make that 207-mile round-trip with about 25 miles of battery charge remaining when I pulled into my driveway. I never gave a second's thought to range, batteries or kilowatt-hours. I just hauled amps. It's probably best for my driving record that I didn't test the performance version of the Model S, which raises the ante to 416 horsepower - and a 4.4-second dash from zero to 60 m.p.h.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/automobiles/autoreviews/one-big-step-for-tesla-one-giant-leap-for-evs.xml?rec=t

BigOil and Repugs will do everything they can to block govt support of EV companies. They will be, as usual, on the wrong side of history.

[CosmicCowboy]

One Big Step for Tesla, One Giant Leap for E.V.'s

The 2012 Model S, a versatile sedan that succeeds the company's two-seat Roadster, is simultaneously stylish, efficient, roomy, crazy fast, high-tech and all electric. It defies the notion that electric cars are range-limited conveyances.
While driving a Model S with the biggest available battery pack - 85 kilowatt-hours - on a restrained run through Northern California wine country, I was able to wring 300.1 miles from a single charge. The E.P.A.'s rating for equivalent gasoline miles per gallon
is 88 m.p.g.e. in town and 90 on the highway, with a 265-mile range.

On a more enthusiastic romp from my home base here to Santa Cruz and back, I sampled what the 362-horsepower electric drivetrain was designed to do: bolt. Tesla says the car can zip from zero to 60 in 5.6 seconds and tops out at 125 miles per hour, but it was the silent, near-instantaneous bursts from 35 to 65 along the Pacific on California Highway 1 that best demonstrated the S's otherworldly quality.

I managed to make that 207-mile round-trip with about 25 miles of battery charge remaining when I pulled into my driveway. I never gave a second's thought to range, batteries or kilowatt-hours. I just hauled amps. It's probably best for my driving record that I didn't test the performance version of the Model S, which raises the ante to 416 horsepower - and a 4.4-second dash from zero to 60 m.p.h.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/automobiles/autoreviews/one-big-step-for-tesla-one-giant-leap-for-evs.xml?rec=t

BigOil and Repugs will do everything they can to block govt support of EV companies. They will be, as usual, on the wrong side of history.

I don't think the oilcos are worried about an $85,000 electric rich mans toy. Besides, the oilcos will sell the natural gas used to generate the electricity used to charge the electric car.

[TeyshaBlue]

lol boutons.

Toyota kills electric car plans, says ‘capabilities of electric vehicles do not meet society’s needs’
Read more at http://venturebeat.com/2012/09/24/toyota-kills-electric-car-plans/#3fthmEYfMsj8ugYD.99

[boutons_deux]

I don't think the oilcos are worried about an $85,000 electric rich mans toy. Besides, the oilcos will sell the natural gas used to generate the electricity used to charge the electric car.

In the renowned, famous documentary Who Killed Roger Rabbit, GM killed light rail in LA county so people would have to buy more cars.

The oilcos have been and will forever pay Congresswhores to delay, or rollback, fuel efficiency standards.

EVs are coming, batteries are the current, but temporary holdup. DoD needs to be "fiscal cliffed" and the money switched to battery research.

[TeyshaBlue]

lol renowned, famous documentary.


http://bit.ly/VhqZWX

[boutons_deux]

Chevy Volt drivers top 100 million miles driven


Chevy Volt drivers have driven a combined total of more than 100,000,000 miles on electricity, as of last Friday


Which reflects the fact that Volt owners cover almost two-thirds of their total distance on electricity (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1077801_if-63-of-volt-miles-are-electric-isnt-it-an-electric-car)--higher than General Motors (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/General+Motors+Corporation) had expected, we imagine, when it launched the Volt in December 2010.
In fact, GM will soon release an app that lets Volt drivers compete on electric miles (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1080488_new-onstar-app-lets-chevy-volt-drivers-compete-on-electric-miles) driven.

And the Volt electric-mile counter continues to rise. When this article was published--just two and a half days later--the total had already risen 1.2 percent.

Other electric-miles totals include 29 million-plus miles (http://www.teslamotors.com/enthusiasts/millions-of-miles)in the global fleet of about 2,500 Tesla Roadsters (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Tesla+Roadster). No totals yet for the new Tesla Model S (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Tesla+Model+S) ... hmmmmmmm.

Then, courtesy of BMW (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/BMW+AG) electric-car advocate Tom Moloughney, we can add a total of 10 million miles (globally) in that company's fleet of 700 Mini E (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/MINI+E) test cars.

The company's current electric-car test program, using the BMW ActiveE (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/BMW+ActiveE) two-door sedan (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1080806_100-million-electric-miles-driven-by-chevy-volt-owners), is closing in on 4 million miles of its own.

And so forth.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2012/1203/Chevy-Volt-drivers-top-100-million-miles-driven?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+feeds%2Fcsm+%28Christian+Scie nce+Monitor+|+All+Stories%29

[CosmicCowboy]

And most of that electricity was produced by burning coal. You sure you really want to celebrate?

http://www.risingtide.org.au/files/images/AUSSIE_COAL_258492f[1].preview.jpg

[boutons_deux]

And most of that electricity was produced by burning coal. You sure you really want to celebrate?

http://www.risingtide.org.au/files/images/AUSSIE_COAL_258492f[1].preview.jpg

Sure, why not?

[RandomGuy]

And most of that electricity was produced by burning coal. You sure you really want to celebrate?

http://www.risingtide.org.au/files/images/AUSSIE_COAL_258492f[1].preview.jpg

Won't be true much longer, given the retirement of the older coal plants and their replacement with natgas plants.

If one is concerned about reducing emissions, the hard and fast CO2 per mile driven is a better measure of such things. If coal electricity pumps out less CO2 per mile than gasoline, you get a net reduction in emissions.

[Drachen]

Won't be true much longer, given the retirement of the older coal plants and their replacement with natgas plants.

If one is concerned about reducing emissions, the hard and fast CO2 per mile driven is a better measure of such things. If coal electricity pumps out less CO2 per mile than gasoline, you get a net reduction in emissions.

YOU BLlNDED ME WITH SCIENCE!

[boutons_deux]

Rich Countries Spend Five Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Climate Aid (http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/12/03/1273061/analysis-countries-spend-five-times-more-on-fossil-fuel-subsidies-than-climate-aid/)

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Fossilfuelsubsidies1-1024x571.jpg

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/12/03/1273061/analysis-countries-spend-five-times-more-on-fossil-fuel-subsidies-than-climate-aid/

[boutons_deux]

Carbon pollution up to 2 million pounds a second

The amount of heat-trapping pollution the world spewed rose again last year by 3 percent. So scientists say it's now unlikely that global warming can be limited to a couple of degrees,
Last year, all the world's nations combined pumped nearly 38.2 billion tons of carbon dioxide into the air from the burning of fossil fuels such as coal and oil, according to new international calculations on global emissions published Sunday in the journal Nature Climate Change. That's about a billion tons more than the previous year.

The total amounts to more than 2.4 million pounds (1.1 million kilograms) of carbon dioxide released into the air every second.

The 2011 figures for the biggest polluters:

1. China, up 10 percent to 10 billion tons.

2. United States, down 2 percent to 5.9 billion tons

3. India, up 7 percent to 2.5 billion tons.

4. Russia, up 3 percent to 1.8 billion tons.

5. Japan, up 0.4 percent to 1.3 billion tons.

6. Germany, down 4 percent to 0.8 billion tons.

7. Iran, up 2 percent to 0.7 billion tons.

8. South Korea, up 4 percent to 0.6 billion tons.

9. Canada, up 2 percent to 0.6 billion tons.

10. South Africa, up 2 percent to 0.6 billion tons.

http://mobile.sfgate.com/sfchron/db_41685/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=KC9W5c1I&full=true#display (http://mobile.sfgate.com/sfchron/db_41685/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=KC9W5c1I&full=true#display)

[RandomGuy]

YOU BLlNDED ME WITH SCIENCE!

How about excel tables? I am much better at blinding with those things.

http://www.eia.gov/electricity/annual/

Fascinating.

Almost all the growth in energy usage in the last 10 years has been in natgas. (table 1.1.a)

Coal has about 30% of the overall energy mix, according the tables, although that includes heating and so forth. About 30-40% of electrical generation in the US.

Tables 1.4 and 1.5 are the kicker though. New planned coal plants are almost non-existent, almost all the slack is natgas for the next 5 years, with more coal being retired than built by a wide margin.

Given our natgas boom, we will likely see less upward pressure on electrical prices. How much, would require more analysis than I have time for.

[boutons_deux]

BigCoal is counting on new rail line and shipping terminals in upper N/W US coast to ship coal to Asia, as US demand plummets. People in the N/W don't want to coal dust polluting their region.

[boutons_deux]

duh, batteries, cheaper and lighter and more energy dense are the key. It's gonna happen

Toyota Plugs Away at the Next-Gen Electric-Car Battery

Toyota researchers are making steady progress in developing a battery that uses magnesium instead of lithium, and which could someday offer a cheaper and more energy-dense alternative.

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/507561/toyota-plugs-away-at-the-next-gen-electric-car-battery/

No surprise if the Japs beat the USA.

[Sportcamper]

For a second year in a row, the Chevrolet Volt extended-range electric car tops our list of the vehicle owners who said they would definitely buy again. The Volt topped two models that fit the fun driving experience trait: the Chevrolet Corvette and Porsche 911. Other satisfying fuel-efficient models include the Toyota's Camry Hybrid, Prius, Prius C, and Prius V, and the all-electric Nissan Leaf.:toast
http://autos.yahoo.com/news/car-owner-satisfaction-survey-shows-models-delight-disappoint-170000472.html

[boutons_deux]

Of 100 Million Miles Driven by Chevy Volts So Far, 2/3 Have Been in Electric Mode

VoltStats.net is a great source of info. It shows that many Volt owners drive more than 90% of their miles in 100% electric mode.

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/100-million-miles-driven-chevy-volts-so-far-23-have-been-electric-mode.html (http://www.treehugger.com/cars/100-million-miles-driven-chevy-volts-so-far-23-have-been-electric-mode.html)

[boutons_deux]

Better batteries from waste sulfur
A new chemical process can transform waste sulfur into a lightweight plastic that may improve batteries for electric cars (http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-04/uoa-bbf041113.php#), reports a University of Arizona-led team. The new plastic has other potential uses, including optical uses.


The team has successfully used the new plastic to make lithium-sulfur batteries.

"We've developed a new, simple and useful chemical process to convert sulfur into a useful plastic," lead researcher Jeffrey Pyun said.

Next-generation lithium-sulfur, or Li-S, batteries will be better for electric and hybrid cars and for military uses because they are more efficient, lighter and cheaper than those currently used, said Pyun, a UA associate professor of chemistry and biochemistry.

The new plastic has great promise as something that can be produced easily and inexpensively on an industrial scale, he said.

The team's discovery could provide a new use for the sulfur left over when oil and natural gas are refined into cleaner-burning fuels.

Although there are some industrial uses for sulfur, the amount generated from refining fossil fuels far outstrips the current need for the element. Some oil refineries, such as those in Ft. McMurray in Alberta, are accumulating yellow mountains of waste sulfur.

"There's so much of it we don't know what to do with it," said Pyun. He calls the left-over sulfur "the garbage of transportation."

About one-half pound of sulfur is left over for every 19 gallons of gasoline produced from fossil fuels, calculated co-author Jared Griebel, a UA chemistry and biochemistry doctoral candidate.

The researchers have filed an international patent for their new chemical process and for the new polymeric electrode materials for Li-S batteries.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-04/uoa-bbf041113.php

[boutons_deux]

http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2013/01/102013fiat500e.jpg.492x0_q85_crop-smart.jpg


The Fiat 500e electric car is coming to California this summer priced at $32,500
which after federal and state incentives could be as low as $20,500.


One innovative perk of buying a Fiat 500e is that it comes with what the company calls the "Fiat 500E Pass program". This gives you 12 days of alternative transportation each year for the first three years via a partnership with car rental company Enterprise. So if you need to take a trip that is longer than the Fiat 500e's 87 miles range, you can simply borrow another vehicle and then switch back to your EV when you come back.



http://www.treehugger.com/cars/fiat-500e-electric-car-coming-california-this-summer-2013-priced-32500.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+treehuggersite+%28Treehugger% 29


Chrysler/Fiat with some innovation.

[Drachen]

http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2013/01/102013fiat500e.jpg.492x0_q85_crop-smart.jpg


The Fiat 500e electric car is coming to California this summer priced at $32,500
which after federal and state incentives could be as low as $20,500.


One innovative perk of buying a Fiat 500e is that it comes with what the company calls the "Fiat 500E Pass program". This gives you 12 days of alternative transportation each year for the first three years via a partnership with car rental company Enterprise. So if you need to take a trip that is longer than the Fiat 500e's 87 miles range, you can simply borrow another vehicle and then switch back to your EV when you come back.



http://www.treehugger.com/cars/fiat-500e-electric-car-coming-california-this-summer-2013-priced-32500.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+treehuggersite+%28Treehugger% 29


Chrysler/Fiat with some innovation.


This is INCREDIBLY smart, but it still requires some education of the public. I talk to people all the time who are getting ready to buy a vehicle and they are looking at SUVs or pickups. When I ask them why, they say "well what if I need it to help someone move" or some such excuse. Then I ask them to pile up all of those excuses and tell me how much they actually use the truck/suv "feature" of their vehicle and it is generally very little (some genuinely need a truck and I have no problems with that). I tell them they can buy a car, save money on the purchase, save money on the gas and rent a damn truck those few times a year that they need it.

[boutons_deux]

education of the public

... that is pretty fucking dumb between the coasts and outside of Chicago, and addicted to macho land yachts.

[boutons_deux]

After Tesla Becomes A Success, Fox Forgets Its Federal Loan
In recent weeks, Fox News has admitted (http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/04/08/fox-forgets-its-electric-car-success-story/193529) that electric carmaker Tesla Motors is a "success story" -- but now the network suddenly has amnesia about the federal assistance that helped it succeed.

On Friday, Fox News anchor Jon Scott hosted Wall Street Journal automotive industry reporter Joseph White to discuss Fisker (http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/04/25/fox-falsely-connects-fisker-loan-to-stimulus/193774), an electric carmaker beset by financial troubles after receiving support from the Department of Energy's Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing program. Scott suggested Fisker is representative (http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2013/04/25/17913038-the-foolish-fight-over-fisker?lite) of the DOE's loan guarantee program, adding: "Meantime, there's another company, Tesla, smaller company, did not get a government loan (http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/04/26/after-tesla-becomes-a-success-fox-forgets-its-f/193798#) as far as I'm aware ... Tesla seems to be making a go of it so far."

UPDATE (4/26/13): When covering a negative (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/20/nyt-vs-tesla-feud-reaches-end-of-road_n_2720770.html) review of Tesla's car, however, Jon Scott did remember that Tesla was government-funded, stating in February 2013, "we are all sort of co-owners of Tesla -- that company got hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars as part of the president's, you know, green energy thing":

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/04/26/after-tesla-becomes-a-success-fox-forgets-its-f/193798

by Fox Repug Propaganda network's rabble-rousing logic, "we are all sort of co-owners of" all the bankrupt banks and insurance companies taxpayers bailed out with $10T.

[Wild Cobra]

Hey Shazbot. So what?

People don't want an electric car that only goes 32 miles on a charge, especially at that price. No amount of government assistance can make that car marketable at that price. The EPA rates the Tesla at 244 miles on a charge.

I'll bet Tesla would have had plenty of backers making it unnecessary to get government assistance. However, they would do so in exchange for a piece of the pie. Since the government loan was available, it only makes sense from a business point of view to use it. I'll bet the Fisker wouldn't be able to get private backing with an electric range of only 32 miles.

[boutons_deux]

Govt loan picked a winner, Fox silent.