Too Many Laws, Too Many Prisoners (article by Economist) [Archive]

scott

08-01-2010, 07:21 PM

Marcus Bryant

08-01-2010, 09:31 PM

Rather strange for a country in which praise for individual "freedom" is repeated ad nauseum throughout the land, to say the least, that incarceration rates are so high and the list of possible criminal infractions for a citizen is so long. Of course, in a weird way that might explain the freedom lust.

One might think that the ideal justice system would be clear as to what were possible crimes for which you could do jail time, obvious why those were crimes, and punish those who violate the rights of other individuals to do as they please, so long as they do not infringe upon others to do the same.

That more and more crimes are now administrative in nature (ie not filing certain paperwork) rather than the usual violent and theft crimes says a lot about where we are as a nation.

greyforest

08-02-2010, 03:24 AM

Rather strange for a country in which praise for individual "freedom" is repeated ad nauseum throughout the land,

What? The land of the free?
Whoever told you that is your enemy

http://www.blog.thesietch.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/incarceration-rates2.png

~~~~~~

08-02-2010, 08:53 AM

what? The land of the free?
Whoever told you that is your enemy

http://www.blog.thesietch.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/incarceration-rates2.pngusa! Usa! Usa!

RandomGuy

08-02-2010, 09:27 AM

a bullet would fix the problem

It would fix the problem of overcrowding, indeed.

In the U.S., as of June 2002, 108 people including 12 death row inmates, have been exonerated by use of DNA tests. The increasing use of DNA testing to help confirm the innocence or guilt in capital cases is one among many reforms that will help ensure that innocent people are not sentenced to death.

Linda Dorman, an Akron, Ohio, great-grandmother had $4,000 in cash taken from her by local authorities [in Shelby Texas] when she was stopped while driving through town after visiting Houston in April 2007. Court records make no mention that anything illegal was found in her van. She's still hoping for the return of what she calls her life savings.[8] In another instance, a man was taken to the local prison and directed to surrender thousands of dollars in cash and jewelry, then released without charges.

Since 2003, at least 34 officers and civilian employees of the department have been indicted on corruption charges, including ticket fixing, robbery, prostitution, extortion and drug conspiracy.

"It's alarming that you'd have that caliber of crime committed within the ranks of a police department," said David Robinson, a civil rights lawyer and former Detroit police officer.

A member of the National Police Accountability Project, a nonprofit arm of the National Lawyers Guild that aims to combat police misconduct, Robinson said Memphis' corruption troubles appear "extreme" for a medium-sized police department.

"It is indicative that something is wrong from the top down," he said.

Academic experts who study police corruption offer a more guarded assessment. They say it's difficult to know if the rash of indictments within the MPD means the department is declining or rising. For starters, there is no uniform measurement of police corruption.

Nearly 24 years after he was wrongfully convicted of murder, Michael Tillman is free, and exonerated.

Tillman served more than two decades in prison for the murder of Betty Howard, a 42-year-old mail clerk whose body was found in a building where Tillman was living. He was 20 at the time.

"I'm glad justice was done," Tillman said upon his release. "I was a victim too."

The same government that you rail against for being corrupt and inefficient has suddenly becomes the pinnacle of trustworthiness?

With your solution, it would be very easy for corrupt politicians and police to silence potential witnesses or pesky whistleblowers.

Frame them, let the wheels of justice grind them into a corpse, and viola! no one able to stand up to them.

Still think that is a good idea?

boutons_deux

08-02-2010, 09:37 AM

"Still think that is a good idea?"

you're asking fucking DUCKS if he thinks? :lol

Marcus Bryant

08-02-2010, 10:38 AM

The main problem is that the guiding principle of criminal justice in the United States is not the punishment of those who violate the rights of others, but instead the adjustment and management of the behavior of individuals. Hence individuals doing jail time for non-violent "crimes" which did not infringe on anyone else's rights and for which the perpetrator was not even aware. How odd for someone to do jail time for a crime with no victim. Obviously a large subset of those individuals have been caught as part of this nation's "War on Drugs."

This underlying philosophy is also seen in federal tax code, which is used often by politicians of all stripes to modify the behavior of the public.

Unfortunately this is now the American "tradition," though this contravenes the original spirit and intent of the American founding. Of course, when the American memory is limited to what happened five minutes ago, it's not that surprising.

This administrative state will never go away. Sure, it will ebb and flow, but generations have been conditioned to its rule, and true liberty scares them.

TeyshaBlue

08-02-2010, 11:11 AM

"Still think that is a good idea?"

you're asking fucking DUCKS if he thinks? :lol

:lmao:lmao

Wild Cobra

08-02-2010, 12:41 PM

What? The land of the free?
Whoever told you that is your enemy

http://www.blog.thesietch.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/incarceration-rates2.png
There could be several reasons for the chart as it is. Maybe we don't kill as many criminals as other places. maybe we have more criminal illegal aliens to deal with because we have no effective border control. Maybe we allow kids in school to be disrespectful asses, and they become worse as adults.

A single statistic is meaningless without knowing more.

Marcus Bryant

08-02-2010, 12:45 PM

Some libertine. And read the article.

scott

08-02-2010, 02:01 PM

Here's another fun example of vital law inforcement in America

http://www.boingboing.net/2010/08/01/man-faces-jail-for-v.html

Marcus Bryant

08-02-2010, 02:08 PM

Here's another fun example of vital law inforcement in America

http://www.boingboing.net/2010/08/01/man-faces-jail-for-v.html

Awesome.

Marcus Bryant

08-02-2010, 02:11 PM

So you can be put in jail for crimes against the state, or for crimes against yourself (use of "controlled substances.") The goal seems to be the perfection of the public to meet ideals other than what each individual citizen determines for themselves.

Wild Cobra

08-02-2010, 02:11 PM

boutons_deux

08-02-2010, 02:13 PM

Lie to the feds, a felony, fine, prison, conviction record destroys your job prospects.

Feds lie to the country (WMD, etc), 100s of 1000s of people die, feds skate free.

Wild Cobra

08-02-2010, 02:21 PM

Lie to the feds, a felony, fine, prison, conviction record destroys your job prospects.

Feds lie to the country (WMD, etc), 100s of 1000s of people die, feds skate free.
Yes...

If it was a lie, why were so many democrats saying the same thing?

Why did president Clinton sign an order for regime change in Iraq, that helped prompt president Bush to carry out?

boutons_deux

08-02-2010, 02:33 PM

"If it was a lie [sic]"

if it WERE a lie

IT WAS A LIE.

dickless Dems (outside of Magic Negro and a couple others) followed the Repug/neo-con lie.

The Repugs were in no way constrained to follow anything that Clinton did. and they very definitely undid a lot of stuff Clinton did.

So all your only defense is that the Dems were suckered by the Repug lies? That's just another version of the "the Repugs are no worse than the Dems" defense.

LnGrrrR

08-02-2010, 03:41 PM

There could be several reasons for the chart as it is. Maybe we don't kill as many criminals as other places. maybe we have more criminal illegal aliens to deal with because we have no effective border control. Maybe we allow kids in school to be disrespectful asses, and they become worse as adults.

A single statistic is meaningless without knowing more.

When that statistic shows a great disparity between us and other nations, I think it has merit. Even if we don't kill as many criminals, or have problem children, etc etc, that doesn't justify the incarceration rate.

DMX7

08-02-2010, 03:46 PM

Yes...

If it was a lie, why were so many democrats saying the same thing?

What do you mean "if" it were a lie? Are you still not convinced? Unbelievable, what a fucking tool.

Wild Cobra

08-02-2010, 03:53 PM

When that statistic shows a great disparity between us and other nations, I think it has merit. Even if we don't kill as many criminals, or have problem children, etc etc, that doesn't justify the incarceration rate.
I agree it has merit, but what merit? What are the reasons? I don't see it as us being tougher than other nations. I see it as indicating we have more people who are morally deficit.

Wild Cobra

08-02-2010, 03:54 PM

What do you mean "if" it were a lie? Are you still not convinced? Unbelievable, what a fucking tool.
It depends on how you wish to define a lie. In the strictest definition, it was a lie. However, it was thought to be the truth when it was said.

The prominent democrats had access to the same information. Did they lie too?

Drachen

08-02-2010, 03:56 PM

I was almost thrown in jail the other day on a Failure to Appear Warrant that I, in fact, appeared for a few days early (for a traffic violation that was dismissed, no less). Luckily the cop was cool and double checked the warrant when I told him I went to court and sure enough there was no warrant out, it was just a delay at the court house in processing paperwork.

There are too many stupid laws which burdens instead of protects our citizens. In my case, it might be easy for you to say "well the mistake got cleared up" and "you would have gotten out of jail eventually with no harm done" but had the officer shown up a few hours earlier or not been as cool I would have spent 4 hours (cop's estimate) in jail for a ticket that got dismissed because the judge agreed I violated no law. What purpose would that have served?

Is America a better place because the 65 year old guy who collects Orchids in his story is in jail?

LOL, I had a similar thing happen to me. I was arrested for failure to appear when I had appeared. Luckily the detective who was assigned to find and take me down was pretty cool, and allowed me to wait until my day off to turn myself in. He took me to the station, where I had to wait for two hours, and then some other cops took me over to county. I was in processing still awaiting an explanation and I kept telling everyone that I had appeared. Then some cop asked me my name I gave it to him, he furrowed his brow as he looked at the computer screen asked again, I gave again. He looks up at his boss and shouts to him "We have the wrong guy, this one hasn't done anything." So they let me go. Fuckers didn't even drive me back home.

LnGrrrR

08-02-2010, 04:07 PM

I agree it has merit, but what merit? What are the reasons? I don't see it as us being tougher than other nations. I see it as indicating we have more people who are morally deficit.

Even if people ARE more morally deficit, do you conclude that means we have to lock them up?

You should check out the statistics for how many people are locked up for drug use. You and I both agree on legalization/decriminalization of marijuana for good reason. There's thousands incarcerated for marijuana use along with other "soft" drugs such as LSD and ecstasy.

Edit: Also WC, why do you think we are more than twice as morally deficit as the majority of other countries? Is there any studies behind this belief, or is just your opinion?

Wild Cobra

08-02-2010, 04:22 PM

Even if people ARE more morally deficit, do you conclude that means we have to lock them up?

It depends on their crime.

You should check out the statistics for how many people are locked up for drug use. You and I both agree on legalization/decriminalization of marijuana for good reason. There's thousands incarcerated for marijuana use along with other "soft" drugs such as LSD and ecstasy.

I agree marijuana should be legalized, and such people serving time released. Seriously though, how many convictions are there that also actually serve time for just marijuana. I don't know about all states. I do know that Arizona used to, and probably still does take a very hard line on marijuana. Most stated don't. As for LCD and Ecstasy, these are dangerous drugs. One can permanently fuck with the mind, the other can cause heart failure.

Edit: Also WC, why do you think we are more than twice as morally deficit as the majority of other countries? Is there any studies behind this belief, or is just your opinion?

I'm sure there are studies, but I cannot point you to any.

You've been to Europe, right?

Most of the Mediterranean has topless beaches. In Germany, swimming pools are clothing optional. The stigmas we apply to our society breeds ignorance, and uncontrollable lust. They don't have nearly the same level of sex crimes, because it isn't taboo. Same with alcohol. It's not taboo. In Germany, you can drink at the age of 16.

I have reasonable examples in life to say these taboos do more harm than good.

The same goes with our lack of being able to disciple children without going to jail. They fail to learn to be responsible citizens.

ElNono

08-02-2010, 04:26 PM

It depends on how you wish to define a lie. In the strictest definition, it was a lie. However, it was thought to be the truth when it was said.

The prominent democrats had access to the same information. Did they lie too?

It was a lie. No matter if it was democrats or republicans saying it. A lie is a lie is a lie.

And what you thought it was is irrelevant. I always personally thought it was a lie.

LnGrrrR

08-02-2010, 04:30 PM

I agree marijuana should be legalized, and such people serving time released. Seriously though, how many convictions are there that also actually serve time for just marijuana. I don't know about all states. I do know that Arizona used to, and probably still does take a very hard line on marijuana. Most stated don't. As for LCD and Ecstasy, these are dangerous drugs. One can permanently fuck with the mind, the other can cause heart failure.

And tobacco can give you cancer, and alcohol can kill you if you drink enough of it.

Why should the government care if someone is dumb enough to do drugs that can harm you?

Do you agree that decriminalizing LSD/ecstasy as well would both increase liberty, save taxpayer money and reduce the size of government?

Also, you know that most drugs weren't even illegal until the early 1900s?

I have reasonable examples in life to say these taboos do more harm than good.

The same goes with our lack of being able to disciple children without going to jail. They fail to learn to be responsible citizens.

I agree that these taboos may cause more harm than good, but don't think your premise follows. Look at how low Japan is on that list... there are tons of taboos in Japanese society.

Heck, even Singapore jails nearly half the people we do.

ElNono

08-02-2010, 04:30 PM

I can't wait for the Moral Police... let's throw more people in jail!

ElNono

08-02-2010, 04:31 PM

I agree that these taboos may cause more harm than good, but don't think your premise follows. Look at how low Japan is on that list... there are tons of taboos in Japanese society.

Maybe, just maybe, morality and criminality have very little in common, or nothing in common at all.

ElNono

08-02-2010, 04:33 PM

Who decides what's morally right and morally wrong?

Does different cultures with different moral values are both right or both wrong?

What's immoral about smoking a joint?

Wild Cobra

08-02-2010, 04:56 PM

Heck, even Singapore jails nearly half the people we do.
True, but they execute 13.57 people per million there. If we killed that may criminals, we would have more than 4,000 less in the jails because of execution, and I'll bet even far less because if its effect as a deterrent.

Wild Cobra

08-02-2010, 05:03 PM

And tobacco can give you cancer, and alcohol can kill you if you drink enough of it.

True, but they don't have the disasterous long term effects as many other drugs do.

Why should the government care if someone is dumb enough to do drugs that can harm you?

As a tax payer, i don't care, until their actions require socialized care because they can no longer function, or hold a job. If they are so rich, they can have someone take care of them, without tax dollars, i don't give a shit.

Do you agree that decriminalizing LSD/ecstasy as well would both increase liberty, save taxpayer money and reduce the size of government?

Liberty, yes. However, when that liberty causes someone to depend on tax payer dollars for the rest of their life, it ends up costing more.

Also, you know that most drugs weren't even illegal until the early 1900s?
Yes, I know. I would like to see some decriminalized. just not all.

I agree that these taboos may cause more harm than good, but don't think your premise follows. Look at how low Japan is on that list... there are tons of taboos in Japanese society.

True, but Japan also instills their youth with a sense of honor that we don't. This topic doesn't rest on any single reason.

LnGrrrR

08-02-2010, 05:03 PM

True, but they execute 13.57 people per million there. If we killed that may criminals, we would have more than 4,000 less in the jails because of execution, and I'll bet even far less because if its effect as a deterrent.

Do you think 13.57 per million (roughly 1.3 per every hundred thousand) is statistically significant compared to the chart?

They jail roughly 400 per 100,000, we jail about 700-750 per 100,000. Is the threat of execution really preventing 300 less per 100K?

Also, if capital punishment were such an inhibiting factor, why would Texas have such a high incarceration rate?

http://www.november.org/razorwire/rzold/20/20019.html

http://nicic.gov/features/statestats/?state=tx

The crime rate in Texas is about 18% higher than the national average rate. Property crimes account for around 88.7% of the crime rate in Texas which is 19% higher than the national rate. The remaining 13.8% are violent crimes and are about 10% higher than other states. The following graph shows how Texas compared to the rest of the states.

Texas has a rate 31% higher than than the national average of incarcerated adults per 100,000.

At least they're doing one thing right...

Taxpayers paid 39% lower than the other states per inmate in 2009.

Wild Cobra

08-02-2010, 05:06 PM

What's immoral about smoking a joint?
I would say nothing. However, I'm a lightweight, and cannot smoke a whole joint without being floored. Or maybe, I just get quality Oregon grown shit.

I find a single bong hit all I need of some good bud. I'm often restless, and sometimes it's the only way I get a good sleep.

LnGrrrR

08-02-2010, 05:08 PM

True, but they don't have the disasterous long term effects as many other drugs do.

Wait.. so we're discounting cancer and death as not being disasterous?

You should do more research into ecstasy and LSD etc etc. The possibilities of damage are moderate, roughly the same as being addicted to alcohol/tobacco.

As a tax payer, i don't care, until their actions require socialized care because they can no longer function, or hold a job. If they are so rich, they can have someone take care of them, without tax dollars, i don't give a shit.

Liberty, yes. However, when that liberty causes someone to depend on tax payer dollars for the rest of their life, it ends up costing more.

That's two different arguments. Are you going to limit a person's liberty to injure themselves? Your argument would seem to prevent a greal deal of activities that could be potentially threatening.

Yes, I know. I would like to see some decriminalized. just not all.

I think we're in agreement here, but with a different set of scales. The only drugs I'd keep illegal would be crack, heroin and maybe one or two other drugs on a similar scale.

True, but Japan also instills their youth with a sense of honor that we don't. This topic doesn't rest on any single reason.

You seemed to be pinning it all on morality. My mistake.

Wild Cobra

08-02-2010, 05:11 PM

Also, if capital punishment were such an inhibiting factor, why would Texas have such a high incarceration rate?

Are they only incarcerating citizens on an island nation, or do they have borders to contend with automatic weapon carrying drug lords too?

As for your other question, YES! I believe knowing the death penalty is probable for certain crimes seriously curtails them.

Marcus Bryant

08-02-2010, 06:13 PM

LnGrrrR

08-02-2010, 08:19 PM

Are they only incarcerating citizens on an island nation, or do they have borders to contend with automatic weapon carrying drug lords too?

As for your other question, YES! I believe knowing the death penalty is probable for certain crimes seriously curtails them.

Your implication was that capital punishment might deter criminals. Whether the people are illegal or not doesn't seem to have anything to do with whether capital punishment would deter them.

In various studies, states that have capital punishment have not shown a correlation to lowered criminal activity. For instance, Alabama executes people.

What's their crime rate, you ask?

The crime rate in Alabama is about 19% higher than the national average rate. Property crimes account for around 90% of the crime rate in Alabama which is 21% higher than the national rate. The remaining 12.4% are violent crimes and are about 0% lower than other states. The following graph shows how Alabama compared to the rest of the states.

Alabama has a rate 30% higher than than the national average of incarcerated adults per 100,000.

Let's not limit it to southern states though. How about Virginia?

The crime rate in Virginia is about 24% lower than the national average rate. Property crimes account for around 90.8% of the crime rate in Virginia which is 22% lower than the national rate. The remaining 7% are violent crimes and are about 44% lower than other states. The following graph shows how Virginia compared to the rest of the states.

Well, the crime rate is lower. However...

Virginia has a rate 8% higher than than the national average of incarcerated adults per 100,000.

Last but not least, Missouri.

The crime rate in Missouri is about 12% higher than the national average rate. Property crimes account for around 87.9% of the crime rate in Missouri which is 12% higher than the national rate. The remaining 13.7% are violent crimes and are about 10% higher than other states. The following graph shows how Missouri compared to the rest of the states.

Missouri has a rate 13% higher than than the national average of incarcerated adults per 100,000.

In each of these states, the incarceration rate is higher despite allowing capital punishment. In 3 of the four, the crime rate was higher as well.

If capital punishment led to less crime, why isn't that reflected? If capital punishment led to less incarceration, why isn't that reflected?

Edit: Information gathered from this link: http://nicic.gov/features/statestats/?state=al

Stringer_Bell

08-03-2010, 03:19 AM

I have a solution:

Inmates with non-violent offenses (Peronsal drug possession, embezzling, fraud, DUI w/out causing public damage, etc) should be made to work on interstate infrastructure projects and other hard labour to make this country better. They are useless sitting in prison.

Inmates with violent history, which are CLEARLY unable to be rehabed (although most people to too pussy to acknowledge that some apples are just BAD), should be outfitted with internal tracking devices and dropped into the Pakistan mountains to do whatever the fuck they want except for coming back to the US.

PS: There needs to be the same "customer service is first" mentality at Court Houses that you'd find at a grocery store. Soooo many of the dumb fucks that work Downtown are only there cuz they knew someone that hired them and they take their jobs for granted and aren't helpful or prompt with taking care of shit. Fix the personnel and have standards!

DarkReign

08-03-2010, 08:39 AM

I believe that at some point, a degree of personal freedom exists that is uncomfortable for some individuals, both for others as well for themselves. Be it guns, drugs, sex, or money, a critical mass of the public needs limits above and beyond what is needed to maintain a stable society in order to feel comfortable. The question for me is what is it about the American character, governance, and society that results in these high incarceration rates vis a vis other Western democracies with highly developed economies?

Inflated superiorty complex. We are taught and led to believe we are better than everyone else, that this is the apex of the civilized world as we know it.

With that sort of pressure, and our very non-secular inhabitants when compared to other developed nations, you get moralilty laws that expect a different and higher standard from Americans by Americans.

IMO, its two things, a residual effect of religion in our country and a means for the powerful to control the powerless.

So long as everything is illegal, everyone can be considered a criminal.

Marcus Bryant

08-03-2010, 09:25 AM

Inflated superiorty complex. We are taught and led to believe we are better than everyone else, that this is the apex of the civilized world as we know it.

With that sort of pressure, and our very non-secular inhabitants when compared to other developed nations, you get moralilty laws that expect a different and higher standard from Americans by Americans.

IMO, its two things, a residual effect of religion in our country and a means for the powerful to control the powerless.

Considerably plausible. Individual liberty is not self-directed and open-ended so long as you respect the liberty of others, but rather available if you behave according to an artificial code of behavior, which, of course, is not liberty at all.

There is definitely a strong religious component to it, as if salvation is offered through the law, or that a Heaven on Earth can be created. I'd also say it's an outgrowth of the reaction to the rapid rise in immigration in the late 19th and early 20th century, when a focus on "Americanization" was all the rage. That set the stage for the formation of the ideal American, by law. And the two major wars of the Twentieth Century, as well as the extended Cold War reinforced the notion of circumscribing individual liberty in the face of the national interest. And a large military conditions a large part of the citizenry to a regimented, subservient lifestyle.

So long as everything is illegal, everyone can be considered a criminal.

Yes.

Marcus Bryant

08-03-2010, 09:34 AM

In return for this degree of behavior control and modification through the law, Americans have been promised prosperity, security, and prestige. Play along and you'll live well. The payoff in this utopia is material consumption. The Cold War rivalry of managerial capitalism versus statist communism demanded that Americans live well. So over time American institutions were shaped to encourage rampant consumption. The financialization and globalization of the American economy occurred in the pursuit of the materialist earthly Heaven.

Wild Cobra

08-03-2010, 10:04 AM

Your implication was that capital punishment might deter criminals. Whether the people are illegal or not doesn't seem to have anything to do with whether capital punishment would deter them.
[/URL]
There are so many factors. For one, if these people were actually executed shortly after their conviction, like in other countries. What about unreported crimes? What about the severity of punishment? Remember the caining of the US citizen in Singapore those years back? What about better forensics to prove a case. There are dozens of things we do different which change these numbers. Now in lower crime rate cities like mine, there is a real high crime. Just that the police and investigators do nothing except file reports basically to nowhere, unless it is a big crime. People here have stopped reporting lesser crimes.

DarkReign

08-03-2010, 11:24 AM

WC,

There is no arguing that the United States imprisons more of its citizens relative to all other developed nations (put the developed cavéat in there as to exclude China...theyre not honest about anything they report).

I really dont know what straw youre grasping at here. Your country, our country, imprisons its people indiscriminately for non-violent "crimes".

If you dont believe the premise, then I ask why? Is it because you dont want to believe our great country is something less than that? Why so defensive about a truism?

Marcus Bryant

08-03-2010, 11:30 AM

Now in lower crime rate cities like mine, there is a real high crime. Just that the police and investigators do nothing except file reports basically to nowhere, unless it is a big crime. People here have stopped reporting lesser crimes.

Sure, when everyone's a criminal, the selection of who is prosecuted is selective and arbitrary.

Marcus Bryant

08-03-2010, 11:38 AM

I really dont know what straw youre grasping at here. Your country, our country, imprisons its people indiscriminately for non-violent "crimes".

If you dont believe the premise, then I ask why? Is it because you dont want to believe our great country is something less than that? Why so defensive about a truism?

It seems to be wrapped up in the notion of American exceptionalism, that as the arsenal of democracy, the state could never err and become overbearing and abusive in its own right. Admitting there are fundamental problems with American government, in particular its law enforcement function, which deprive many Americans needlessly of their liberty, is heresy to the American greatness religion. Or, somehow the military and law enforcement functions of the federal government are beyond reproach. It's just commie black dudes who get elected to federal office who are the real threat.

LnGrrrR

08-03-2010, 01:33 PM

There are so many factors. For one, if these people were actually executed shortly after their conviction, like in other countries. What about unreported crimes? What about the severity of punishment? Remember the caining of the US citizen in Singapore those years back? What about better forensics to prove a case. There are dozens of things we do different which change these numbers. Now in lower crime rate cities like mine, there is a real high crime. Just that the police and investigators do nothing except file reports basically to nowhere, unless it is a big crime. People here have stopped reporting lesser crimes.

So, you mean there are other factors then "America isn't moral" at play, like I said originally?

Will you admit that your feeling that capital punishment is an effective deterrent has no factual basis, as it shows no correlation to a lowered crime rate OR incarceration statistics?

As DR said, America jails more citizens than any other developed nation on the world. Don't you think there might be something behind that? Perhaps it's the prison lobbyists which lobby against any drug legalization because they know it means less money for them?

You often argue that the government finds ways to keep itself around and make itself larger. Aren't you willing to apply that same criteria to our law enforcement and jailers?

RandomGuy

08-04-2010, 11:49 AM

Who decides what's morally right and morally wrong?

Does different cultures with different moral values are both right or both wrong?

What's immoral about smoking a joint?

The same thing that makes it ultimately immoral to buy "blood diamonds" whose initial purchase is used to fund some of the hideously evil "child armies" in Africa.

One has to consider the source of the joint, to fully consider the morality of the act.

RandomGuy

08-04-2010, 11:50 AM

Sure, when everyone's a criminal, the selection of who is prosecuted is selective and arbitrary.

Essentially.

How else can one explain the disparity between power cocaine penalties and that of crack cocaine?

ElNono

08-04-2010, 11:58 AM

Wild Cobra

08-04-2010, 12:20 PM

Here's a question. Which laws would you appear that would reduce the prison populations to acceptable levels?

LnGrrrR

08-04-2010, 02:28 PM

The same thing that makes it ultimately immoral to buy "blood diamonds" whose initial purchase is used to fund some of the hideously evil "child armies" in Africa.

One has to consider the source of the joint, to fully consider the morality of the act.

An interesting argument but one I think that fails, or at least needs clarification.

First off, there's a difference between the act of "smoking pot" and the act of "purchasing pot from a drug dealer". I'll assume you're only referring to the act of purchasing.

Given that distinction, we can then ask if we truly know the source of purchased marijuana. If you're purchasing from someone on the corner who sells all kinds of drugs to children, sure, that's definitely morally shady. However, there may be a local dealer who grows pot locally and sells it. In that case, the source seems to have no moral failings, and so the buyer experiences no moral hazards.

Additionally, if we were forced to examine the source of everything we consume, the only truly "moral" way to live would probably be on a farm somewhere. From factories in China to slaughterhouses for McDonald's, we sacrifice some of our morals, some of our authenticity, for modernity.

LnGrrrR

08-04-2010, 02:30 PM

Here's a question. Which laws would you appear that would reduce the prison populations to acceptable levels?

I've already brought up legalizing and taxing "soft" drugs. That's a good first step.

LnGrrrR

08-04-2010, 02:31 PM

Essentially.

How else can one explain the disparity between power cocaine penalties and that of crack cocaine?

Power cocaine? That sounds like a video game powerup :)

coyotes_geek

08-04-2010, 02:35 PM

Power cocaine? That sounds like a video game powerup :)

I knew that had to be some good shit that Pacman was downing if all of a sudden he could go eat ghosts.

ElNono

08-04-2010, 02:52 PM

power cocaine > crack pipe

Marcus Bryant

08-04-2010, 03:09 PM

Here's a question. Which laws would you appear that would reduce the prison populations to acceptable levels?

Non-violent drug offenses.
Non-violent administrative violations (ie not filling out the proper paperwork, but not probation violations for released violent offenders).

Would seem to be a good place to start. And jailing someone for a failure to appear on a traffic violation seems a bit much.

Marcus Bryant

08-04-2010, 03:10 PM

Of course, who knows how many potential criminal violations lurk in the US Code?

DarkReign

08-04-2010, 03:18 PM

Here's a question. Which laws would you appear that would reduce the prison populations to acceptable levels?

All crimes which have no direct victims. Politicians are infamous for showing some abstract and arbitrary impact a certain crime has on the community.

In reality, its a method of control and revenue.

I dont pretend to know what direction things seem to be going, but instead of using the past 4 years, lets use the last 30 years.

This article is 10 years old (http://www.mediastudy.com/articles/incarceration.html)

The incarceration rate has increased 7 fold since 1970 (from an article in 2000). Lets assume (since I am far too lazy to do the google search) that the rate has leveled of since 2000, in that it hasnt gone up or down.

So, we're still stuck with 690 inmates per 100,000 people.

So, we should expect that ratio to only rise as laws become more encompassing and people have less and less "sense" for what is illegal. Listen to the judge in the OP's story, he straight-up said to the interviewer/reader "Youve committed a Federal crime already, you just dont know it."

By the year 2040, with a marginal increase in the incarceration rate of 3x, we should see a jump to 2070 inmates per 100,000 people.

That would mean 2.07% of the population is currently a felon.

Thats astonishing and complete bullshit. When you, as a country, are jailing that many people, its time to stop analyzing people and start looking at your laws.

Marcus Bryant

08-04-2010, 03:19 PM

All crimes which have no direct victims.

Better said.

ElNono

08-04-2010, 03:20 PM

When copyright infringement has higher penalties than statutory rape you need to realize there's a problem.

Marcus Bryant

08-04-2010, 03:22 PM

Administrative crimes are those against the state, or public. Americans do seem adept at creating those kind of offenses.

Drug crimes would then be crimes first and foremost against yourself. Then perhaps your family, and then 'the public.'

Marcus Bryant

08-04-2010, 03:23 PM

When copyright infringement has higher penalties than statutory rape you need to realize there's a problem.

I think that shows who's boss.

Marcus Bryant

08-04-2010, 03:25 PM

Or, just 'victimless crimes.' The probability that the crime is nothing more than an attempt at behavior modification is high without a victim.

DarkReign

08-04-2010, 03:46 PM

BTW, I fucked up my math and forgot to move the decimal point in a percentage (didnt look right to me to begin with).

Currently, 0.69% of the population is in prison/long term jail. This number does not include those on parole, probation or otherwise "in the system".

Projecting a modest rise of the incarceration rate (3 fold), by the year 2040, 2.07% of the population will be in prison.

W

T

F

Marcus Bryant

08-04-2010, 03:48 PM

I think that's too low.

Of course, the counter is that eventually the population is so well trained to shudder at the thought of offending the state for fear of imprisonment that there is no longer the need to lock up as many.

Winehole23

08-04-2010, 03:51 PM

Texas prison population actually went down last year, but I'll bet that has more to do with the impending revenue shortfall than anything else.

Wild Cobra

08-04-2010, 04:05 PM

I've already brought up legalizing and taxing "soft" drugs. That's a good first step.
But that not why people are in jails by such counts. most are slapped on the wrists, unless they are big dealers. Even then, they are usually only in jail if the used weapons against the police during arrests. not because of the drugs them self.

I say the problem stems from having too many morally deficient people. Not because of too many laws.

But yes, I want to see our laws cleaned up. We do have too many. I just won't blame incarceration rates over it.

LnGrrrR

08-04-2010, 04:45 PM

But that not why people are in jails by such counts. most are slapped on the wrists, unless they are big dealers. Even then, they are usually only in jail if the used weapons against the police during arrests. not because of the drugs them self.

Methinks this is a personal opinion of yours, and not one based on actual statistics. Am I correct?

I say the problem stems from having too many morally deficient people. Not because of too many laws.

You yourself stated that there are multiple factors, correct? So just having morally deficient people doesn't explain it.

But yes, I want to see our laws cleaned up. We do have too many. I just won't blame incarceration rates over it.

No one is "blaming" incarceration rates. The rates are what they are. What we're doing is going over WHY they are so high, and whether there's a way to fix it.

However, you merely seem to think that America is exceptionally unique among all countries in its depravity. Given this theory of yours, perhaps you would like to suggest a means to reduce the prison population? Which laws would you do away with, for instance?

coyotes_geek

08-04-2010, 06:10 PM

Texas prison population actually went down last year, but I'll bet that has more to do with the impending revenue shortfall than anything else.

A safe bet IMO.

greyforest

08-06-2010, 06:57 PM

There could be several reasons for the chart as it is. Maybe we don't kill as many criminals as other places. maybe we have more criminal illegal aliens to deal with because we have no effective border control. Maybe we allow kids in school to be disrespectful asses, and they become worse as adults.

A single statistic is meaningless without knowing more.

Maybe our prisons are privately owned, and they are paying judges to send them prisoners?

Oh wait http://www.timesleader.com/news/Conahan_pleads_guilty_to_plot_07-23-2010.html